#indieweb

2014-09-28

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shaners
what is bear?
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Loqi
Bear is an Manager of Operations for &yet living near Philadelphia, PA http://indiewebcamp.com/bear
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shaners
:D
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@kartik_prabhu
I suggest that abuse-prevention can be solved by usual methods+UI @kyle_wm @t @joeld @gRegorLove #indieweb more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-suggestion (twtr.io/rCt_og1piU)
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KartikPrabhu
more proactive thoughts ^
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KartikPrabhu
is instant-fav from tantek a good sign ? :P
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KartikPrabhu
also with that I've reached 200 posts on a platform (Twitter) that I didn't think I'd ever use :P
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shaners
good night, all
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Loqi
don't let the bed bugs bite
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shaners
sweet dreams, loqi
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Loqi
[mention] http://raccooncode.withknown.com/2014/trying-out-this-thing-since-i-like-the-idea-of linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@amblin
@sil When it happens, it's likely to be #indieweb that does it. (twtr.io/rDMdBcQgt4)
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snarfed
morning all
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Loqi
snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 7 hours, 44 minutes ago: is it possible for Bridgy publish to include more at: original-link if the content was truncated instead of a (original-link). more reader friendly IMO
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: hmm. maybe! FB already has an expanded form like that. i kept the twitter one minimal to save chars.
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snarfed
(tantek asked for it for FB: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/267 )
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snarfed
it's subjective, so i guess ideally you'd be able to choose for yourself. reasonable feature request if you want
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@amblin
@sil Isn't that what FB or G+ are? Just well integrated and silo'd? http://indiewebcamp.com/withknown IndieFriends section. (twtr.io/rDT63u8FMb)
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petermolnar
hi snarfed
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petermolnar
bridgy does not seem to be picking up any posts for me from facebook newer than sept 12
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petermolnar
any idea how to debug?
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snarfed
petermolnar: hmm, sorry to hear that. i'll look
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snarfed
any chance you have your user page URL handy?
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petermolnar
https://www.facebook.com/petermolnar.eu ?
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petermolnar
or the bridgy one?
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petermolnar
https://www.brid.gy/facebook/584261234
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snarfed
either, thanks!
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snarfed
looks like it's seeing posts and responses but not finding links
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snarfed
are the FB posts not public?
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snarfed
bridgy only handles fully public posts
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petermolnar
oh
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petermolnar
that might be it
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petermolnar
thanks :)
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snarfed
other ideas: https://www.brid.gy/about#missing
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ShaneHudson
Woooohoooo!!!!!!
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ShaneHudson
Took me ages but finally managed to get DNS working on dedicated :) (probably not the best way, haven't set up multiple ips) http://diemlabs.com/ yay
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petermolnar
snarfed it's all fine now, it was the level of visibility, sorry for not being able to spot it :)
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@kyle_wm
@sil @amblin you can comment on other blogs (any that support webmention, not just @withknown) + batteries included for silo interop (twtr.io/rDX2UKopZt)
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snarfed
petermolnar: np! glad we figured it out
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shanehudson.net
edited /dns (+241) "Adding into dns as a tool to help troubleshooting" (view diff)
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@amblin
@kyle_wm @sil Exactly and is what I meant originally. @withknown packages and makes #indieweb tech easy. (twtr.io/rDYGHkJtiX)
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@smcdoyle
Learning about indie web alternatives to mainstream social networks http://indiewebcamp.com/ #bclx https://twitter.com/smcdoyle/status/516238655099518976/photo/1 (twtr.io/rDZ5zL8t2w)
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shanehudson.net
edited /web_hosting (+108) "/* Dedicated Server */" (view diff)
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kylewm
did not realize @sil coined "pingback"
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kylewm
you know, if somebody wants to start webmention abuse prevention, the best thing might be to start sending wm spam :P
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kylewm.com
edited /Known (+56) "/* Plugins and Themes Missing */ seems to have been fixed" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust
ugh, i fixed it so that PHP wouldn't need [] on GET/POST multi-values, but i undid it because i thought i was causing issues with brid.gy
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ben_thatmust
apparently i really need to make sending webmentions async
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petermolnar.eu
edited /Ello (+72) "/* Unsustainable VC Funding */" (view diff)
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neuro`
ben_thatmust: the more async, the best the user experience, retry management etc...
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ben_thatmust
yeah, i already did that for receiving webmentions and pulling in context, but not for sending yet
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ben_thatmust
seems like my whole site freezes until it fails bridgy sends... and bridgy probably fails because my site won't load
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tantek
kylewm: re: Pingback and Stuart Langridge, yes. see: https://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2002 :)
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@anomalily
@GreatAndRandom I’m doing it #indieweb style just for my own site but I’ll probably throw it up on github & folks can fork it. (twtr.io/rDedujw1qy)
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tantek
tommorris++ for representing at BarCamp BCLX! https://twitter.com/smcdoyle/status/516238655099518976
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@smcdoyle
Learning about indie web alternatives to mainstream social networks http://indiewebcamp.com/ #bclx https://twitter.com/smcdoyle/status/516238655099518976/photo/1 (twtr.io/rDZ5zL8t2w)
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tantek
ah, Loqi can only do one thing in response
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tantek
tommorris++
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Loqi
tommorris has 56 karma
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tommorris
People seemed to have enjoyed it. ;)
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neuro`
tommorris++
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Loqi
tommorris has 57 karma
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tantek
since when did Twitter cleanup their hashtag search links like this? https://twitter.com/hashtag/indieweb
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ShaneHudson
tantek: In terms of the URL or UI?
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ShaneHudson
https://twitter.com/stephenfry/status/516253854145736704
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@stephenfry
Utterly baffled by #ello - someone’s nabbed my name and I can’t find or message anyone. Probably my fault but frustratingly odd. (twtr.io/rDdXkS3ak4)
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@LifeHealthDiary
Revolutionary Healthcare Change - because it's all about you! http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/tribe-revolution-whats/ #OwnYourData (twtr.io/rDhv3ef5c4)
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@joelgaines
Revolutionary Healthcare Change - because it's all about you! http://blog.lifetimehealthdiary.com/tribe-revolution-whats/ #OwnYourData (twtr.io/rDhv3z58QY)
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petermolnar
although I'm at the indie side of many things, indiehealth sounds really, really bad
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@kirilind
someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #empowerment (twtr.io/rDi861rh4p)
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@pjesi
RT @krynsky: Forget Ello. We need to support #indieweb friendly apps that are open source, de-centralized & can be self-hosted like @withkn… (twtr.io/rDiqDfbgJy)
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davidmead
afternoon all. quick question: anyone else having issues with IndieWeb WP plugin by pfefferle?
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petermolnar
hi
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petermolnar
please define "issues"
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davidmead
hi. since updating it I now have a lot of other indieweb plugins, but I’m also getting errors when publishing
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davidmead
for instance… Warning: Missing argument 2 for it_publish() in /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-content/plugins/indieweb-taxonomy-master/indieweb-taxonomy.php on line 35
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davidmead
Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-content/plugins/indieweb-taxonomy-master/indieweb-taxonomy.php:35) in /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-admin/post.php on line 233
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davidmead
Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-content/plugins/indieweb-taxonomy-master/indieweb-taxonomy.php:35) in /nfs/c03/h06/mnt/56448/domains/davidjohnmead.com/html/wp-includes/pluggable.php on line 1173
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petermolnar
the taxonomy plugin is alpha
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petermolnar
it's not really ready for a user-friendly use
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davidmead
oh i c. i didn’t see that mentioned when it asked to install the update
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petermolnar
it's pulled from github, not wp, that is usually an indicator :)
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davidmead
lol - i should have been paying closer attention. i just saw the update in my WP console and clicked
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davidmead
maybe thats why the content of replies from twitter isn’t showing too
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davidmead
i used to see if it was a like,retweet, or an actually reply
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davidmead
now its just a generic “there was a reply from twitter"
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davidmead
hard to know which one to reply back too
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petermolnar
I had that issue, but that was with bridgy imho
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petermolnar
check the comment by the id and see what the actual content it
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davidmead
yea. i’m going to have to trim some of these plugins. i have the bridgy post url inserted into my page code, so if one of these new plugins also has it it could be a conflict
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davidmead
i thought we were trying to make it easier ;-)
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petermolnar
that's the long term goal :)
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@gunnarhafdal
RT @krynsky: Forget Ello. We need to support #indieweb friendly apps that are open source, de-centralized & can be self-hosted like @withkn… (twtr.io/rDm5j0ANMs)
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@kevinmarks
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twtr.io/rDnKMLfL3D)
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kylewm
petermolnar: davidmead: is "the IndieWeb plugin" the one that http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress#webmention says not to use?
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@versoe
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twtr.io/rDoMUPT36h)
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petermolnar
that's out of date; that note was for 1.x, 2.0 is ok, I'll remove the warning
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petermolnar.eu
edited /WordPress (-5) "/* webmention */" (view diff)
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GWG
Did I see someone having issues with Indieweb Taxonomy?
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@VStheGODS
@MisterRez b A N J O 10/10 "An indie masterpiece" -IndieWeb 10/10 "So artistic and beautiful" -IndieNow 5/10 "No ethnic characters" -Kotaku (twtr.io/rDoicfGcYo)
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GWG
You step away for an hour...
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petermolnar
that was davidmead
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GWG
petermolnar: I'm just happy someone is using it
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tantek
ShaneHudson, delayed reply, the twitter hashtag search *URL* as it were. instead of some crappy query thing.
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tantek
we need to somehow document the rackspace and aws downtimes / reboots happening and note summaries on the /web_hosting page
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bear.im
edited /AWS (+183) "sept reboot downtime articles" (view diff)
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bear.im
edited /AWS (+0) "/* Downtime */" (view diff)
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bear.im
edited /AWS (+16) "add rackspace to the see also list" (view diff)
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tantek
and on a third topic, back to webmention and spam - the more I think about it the more I keep coming back to trying a 3rd parameter, a URL, that "vouches" for the source.
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tantek
i.e. if A is sending a webmention to B (who don't know each other, i.e. B has never linked to A), A sends along a third parameter, let's say "voucher=" (new name please) that includes a URL to C, which has a link to A (thus "vouching"), and B *has* linked to C in the past.
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tantek
this way you push the work of 2nd degree trust discovery onto the *sender* of the webmention, rather than the receiver
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bear.im
created /Rackspace (+416) "rackspace stub" (view diff)
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tantek
this is merely a brainstorm at this point, however I plan on implementing it along with my webmention implementation
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bear
that could with with a FOAF style signing
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bear
I have you listed as a trusted source and in my list I included your auth token
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tantek
bear - not sure that adds anything or is necessary. I'd like to build the simple thing first. before seeing if anything was/is necessary
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tantek
also nothing based on invisible data (FOAF) should be used as a basis for anything
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tantek
if you were to say visible XFN blogroll OTOH, then we might have a start
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bear
thought that was simple
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tantek
bear, nothing about FOAF is simple, nor is anything about "signing" simple
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bear
yea, foaf was just a keyword to shortcut me having to explain a visible way of linking two trusted sources
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tantek
and lastly, no matter how simple, anything *additional* should be avoided until there is a use-case that deems it necessary
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tantek
following YAGNI principles
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tantek
foaf has too much bag baggage to be a generic shortcut any more
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bear
sure, but you said trust
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bear
and that implies discovery and verification
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tantek
trust means different things to different people
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tantek
but you're right, I misspoke and used a loaded term
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bear
if I want to accept webmentions because they include a marker from you - trust only has one meaning
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tantek
so instead:
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tantek
this way you push the work of 2nd degree link discovery onto the *sender* of the webmention, rather than the receiver
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tantek
there, much simpler :)
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bear
will wait for tantek to rediscover third party signing
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bear
not saying that in any mean or bad way - sorry if it came across that way
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bear
I am looking forward to seeing what flows you come up with
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tantek
bear, is the signing necessary when a simple link will do?
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tantek
a-ha! "what flows you come up with" <-- that is the right question. :)
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bear
unless that link points to something I as the receiver can verify that both the sender and the person asking to vouch are who they say they are
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tantek
you don't need identity, just a link from/to
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tantek
as in , B->vouchlink->A
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bear
in this realm a link within the domain space of a person *is* identity
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tantek
it is, however there is no need for "who they say they are"
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bear
if your sending a webmention to kevin with my link as a vouch it should be in the bear.im domain space
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tantek
this is for the spam problem, not the spoofing problem
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tantek
the spoofing problem is a separate problem and can happen independent of any spam problem
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tantek
as has been demonstrated
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tantek
when you say "my link as a vouch" that is redundant with "in the bear.im domain space"
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tantek
the vouchlink can be *anything* that B links to, where the vouchlink *also* links to A
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bear
is struggling with not going a layer deeper because crypto
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tantek
does not matter who - i.e. I said nothing about the person
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tantek
it's just a URL, that you retrieve, and check for links from
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tantek
no crypto needed
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tantek
or rather if you're worried about site-spoofing then the answer is /https
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tantek
again, orthogonal
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bear
i'm seeing what your describing... still have some concerns - but again, we need an implementation so we can discuss concrete points
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bear
yea, https does solve the issue I was noodling over above
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bear
yep - ok, looking forward to implementing your flow
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tantek
looking forward to documenting it ;)
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bear
right now I need to run the errands I was going to run tonight because rackspace still hasn't hit the majority of my servers ...
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bear
going to be a long night
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@Mark_Cawley
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twtr.io/rDr_rVx05N)
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@jsuttor
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twtr.io/rDry1kTyiD)
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kylewm
tantek: I like the idea of removing the receiver's burden to spider friends of friends, but how can the sender find such a vouch link?
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bret
can't we just make it based on Loqi karma?
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rascul
karma++
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Loqi
karma has 16 karma
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rascul
i don't know the context, i just thought it was a good idea to give karma some karma :)
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rascul
goes back to beer and nascar
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bret
is referrer data that browsers send important to the end user at all?
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@thierrymarianne
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twtr.io/rDvBBZEGPV)
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neuro`
bret: can be when you're visiting sites that use tricks to prevents from hotlinking their images.
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@iamronen
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twtr.io/rDx4F8gY14)
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tantek
kylewm, re:how can the sender find such a vouch link? How do people in general explain how they know each other?
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tantek
i.e. we can push this question off to arbitrary social sidebands of choice
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tantek
the way people share links informally in all sorts of ways
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tantek
in addition, since such social questions are of interest beyond commenting (as evidence by FB and other silo's showing how many friends in common you have and who they are), there's likely to be one or more aggregators that surface this information in some queryable way
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tantek.com
edited /Rackspace (+48) "dfn, web hosting" (view diff)
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@petermolnar
RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twtr.io/rDydXcnLPV)
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tantek
kylewm, e.g. someone might setup a service like say socialsearchme.com where you can put in your personal site, and see *who* has linked to you (most recently, most frequently), who you've linked to, the overlap
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tantek
as well as how many and who you have in common
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gRegor`
Any messages, Loqi?
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Loqi
woot!
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gRegor`
sweet
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tantek
in which case, as a user, after commenting (and presumably having their "normal" webmention rejected), they could check a hypothetical service like socialsearchme.com for themselves, see that they'd linked to B, and then see how many (if any) people they have in common, especially, if there are any people that B has linked to that link to A, and if so, presto, that's a "vouch" URL.
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tantek
this manual human step of checking, hey how do we know each other adds to the strength of the social tie between the commenter and the post author
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bret
Are user pages written in 1st or 3rd person?
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tantek
both
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@dissolve333
Test post, broke webmention when trying to make it not use [] for post values.. blame @kevinmarks (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/28/13/_) (twtr.io/rE19Swkvgs)
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ShaneHudson
Just wondering, why does Loqi have to use dfn instead of first sentance?
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Loqi
is done
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ben_thatmust
haha, webmention sending now asyncronous
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Loqi
ahahaha
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ben_thatmust
must faster posting response
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor
Nick tree
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ShaneHudson
You need the / :)
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ben_thatmust_
Does Loqi follow "webmention" too
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+62) "/* OpenBlog */ updated TODO list" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Micropub (+222) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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@marialebarredo
http://indiewebcamp.com/ http://learninglovers.wordpress.com/2014/09/28/245/ (twtr.io/rE6Fayp87U)
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bret
https://twitter.com/kyledrake/status/516322697966788610
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@kyledrake
I just got an email requesting that Neocities support the Gopher protocol. (twtr.io/rE37K9HMGq)
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KevinMarks
Tantek is your vouch a "you may know me from…"?
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GWG
You may know me from such Indiewebcamps as...?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek_ how do I know if the voucher I received is legit. i.e. don't I have to verify that there is a link between sender and voucher ?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: if I understand your question, that is the purpose of the vouch link, it's a URL of a permalink where a mutual friend links to the sender
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: but anyone can send me a webmention with voucher = kylewm , should I just trust that they know you? or do I go fishing in your friendslist to verify it?
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KartikPrabhu
oh wait i see
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KartikPrabhu
voucher=URL of the linking page ok
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KartikPrabhu
yeah this is voucher thing will be hard
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ben_thatmust
very interesting idea about this whole voucher bit
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KartikPrabhu
why don't people worry about this for Twitter?
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kylewm
because twitter is content to be a wild west of sockpuppets and spam porn bots?
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kylewm
porn spam bots* spam porn bots would be something very different
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bear
I don't think it will be hard per se
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bear
since they are one direction and if the domain uses https, authenticated
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KartikPrabhu
no it will be very hard for me to send a webmention to someone. If I want to send a mention to bear for the first time, I have to somehow get a list of people who have mentioned bear before (don't know how to do that spider all of bear's post comments?), and have previously mentioned me (spider my list of received mentions) and then create a voucher URL on match
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bear
I don't think that is it
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bear
you send a webmention to me along with a list of people who are vouching for you
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bear
and if I trust that list, then I auto-add it
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bear
"list of people" == urls
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KartikPrabhu
bear: urls == url of someone else linking to me?
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bear
someone who is in your list of people who vouch for you
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bear
so if I was sending a webmention to tantek, I would give webmention info + url of my vouched-for list which would include you
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bear
then tantek reads that url from me and decides if anyone in that list he trusts
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bear
(at least that is how I'm understanding it) -- but it's still nebulous until tantek documents the flow
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KartikPrabhu
hmm
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tantek
reads logs since
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tantek
vouch questions answered FIFO:
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tantek
1. KevinMarks: is your vouch a "you may know me from…"? Not quite. No assertion of "may" nor "know". Just a "here's someone's {C} (perma)link, you {B} have linked to {some URL at C's personal domain}, where {C} links to me {some URL at A's personal domain}
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tantek
"
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tantek
2. KartikPrabhu "how do I know if the voucher I received is legit." you have to do 2 (relatively) simple checks. continued: "don't I have to verify that there is a link between sender and voucher" - in one direction only, that voucher URL links to sender's personal domain. that's the easy check. the harder check is you have verify that YOU link somewhere to voucher's personal domain (e.g. from your blogroll, whitelist, Twitter
#
tantek
followings, nicknames cache, outbound link cache)
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tantek
3. KartikPrabhu " but anyone can send me a webmention with voucher = kylewm, should I just trust that they know you?". No, no notion of "trust" needed. Just links. You MUST verify that "kylewm" (presumably a permalink at his site) links to the sender. continued: "or do I go fishing in your friendslist to verify it?" No. There is no need to crawl anywhere from the voucher URL.
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tantek
4. KartikPrabhu "this is voucher thing will be hard" Why? Please rephrase that in the form of a question that you think has a hard answer and I'll try to give you an easy answer :)
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tantek
5. KartikPrabhu "why don't people worry about this for Twitter?" They do. :) See Twitter silo mentions of my Twitter profile: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%40t&src=typd
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tantek
6. bear: "they are one direction and if the domain uses https, authenticated" correct!
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tantek
7. KartikPrabhu: " If I want to send a mention to bear for the first time, I have to somehow get…" No let me stop you right there. The vouch protocol is a backwards compatible extension to webmmention. Step 1, you send a webmention as if you would today. Step 2. Perhaps the receiver is already a fan of yours (secretly, in their private whitelist, nicknames cache, etc.) and thus your webmention is accepted without any additional wor
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Loqi
[mention] http://www.gregfalken.com/2014/09/owning-your-words/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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barnabywalters
what is vouch?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "vouch" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=vouch
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tantek
barnabywalters: right, I decided to bounce it off people in the channel first
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barnabywalters
tantek: sounds like the vouch protocol is a useful extension for webmention
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barnabywalters
makes perfect sense as part of a layered anti-spam, anti-abuse system
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barnabywalters
it’s another data point for webmention endpoints/proxies to take into account
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barnabywalters
e.g. a social graph crawling webmention proxy could, on an incoming webmention, go:
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barnabywalters
1) is the sender in my social graph? if so accept, otherwise:
#
tantek
7.. continued: Step 3, if for any reason the receiver of your webmention does not want to accept it, e.g. they've never linked to you before (or you're not in their private whitelist, nicknames cache, Twitter followings - per rel-me consolidation identity equivalency etc.), the receiver rejects your webmention with a 400.
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barnabywalters
2) have they sent a vouch parameter? if so, check it, accept. otherwise:
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barnabywalters
3) have they sent a hashcash parameter? if so, accept, otherwise:
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barnabywalters
4) (etc)
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barnabywalters
5) last resort: add to a manual moderation list
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tantek
7.. continued: Step 4, at this point you may decide to send a webmention+vouch, in which case it is up to you, the sender of the webmention to find such a vouch URL and include it as the 3rd parameter in your resend of the webmention.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yeah Step4 is not so easy now is it?
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tantek
barnabywalters: I'm not convinced about hashcash - spammers have shown they're willing to spend non-trivial resources sending spam.
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KartikPrabhu
in fact at that point I would just think, "ok rejected moiving on"
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tantek
I would actually dump a webmention after vouch failing and leave it to the person to attempt a sideband communication (e.g. saying hi here in IRC)
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barnabywalters
tantek: given that no-one’s actually implemented any of this yet, I’d be willing to actually try it out and see what happens in real life
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tantek
or perhaps have them attempt a mention through Bridgy, POSSE copy to POSSE copy
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tantek
which raises the bar again, as they have to put their POSSE profile at risk, which a real person is willing to do, but not many spammers are (and it raises the cost for them)
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barnabywalters
but of course everyone could choose what works for them — another advantage to the many-layered approach
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tantek
barnabywalters: yes, everyone can try what works for them - I'm merely indicating a minimum viable vouch approach.
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KevinMarks
vouch can apply to a shared membership too? Eg irc-people or hwc, or xoxo?
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tantek
continuing in order
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KevinMarks
Saying "we're both members of this publicly defined group"
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KartikPrabhu
but I am still confused as to how to find a vouch URL to send?
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tantek
that was 8… responding to barnabywalters re: 1…5 steps, summary: only 1..2 are necessary for minimum viable vouch implementation.
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tantek
9. KartikPrabhu re: "Step4 [up to sender of the webmention to find a vouch URL] is not so easy now is it?" Unknown. For most conversations, e.g. people here in #indiewebcamp, I expect it will be trivial for you to find a URL just by checking the home page of the person you're trying to send a webmention to.
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KartikPrabhu
yes but people I already know is not the problem
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bret.io
edited /User:Bret.io (-38) "Updated my userpage" (view diff)
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KevinMarks
So the vouch is a sponsor? It's like being an apprentice in iwc?
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tantek
10. KartikPrabhu: "in fact at that point I would just think, ok rejected moiving on" - for that reason it may be worth introducing a new explicit error value: "needs vouch". The closest HTTP status/error code for this is 412 Precondition Failed - the precondition being - the request lacked a "vouch" parameter.
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tantek
10.. continued: Thus upon receiving a 412, as the sender of the webmention *without* the vouch, you might say, oops the requester specifically wants a vouch, I'll go try again with a vouch.
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bret.io
edited /User:Bret.io (-20) "Fixed headings" (view diff)
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KevinMarks
I'm mentally rummaging through meanings here: vouch, sponsor, aegis, introducer,
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tantek
11. KevinMarks "vouch can apply to a shared membership too? Eg irc-people or hwc, or xoxo?" A vouch URL could be for example http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kevinmarks.com, which obviously links to the domain(s) (known.)kevinmarks.com, and thus vouches for any permalinks at those domains. Then the receiver of the webmention has to decide, have I linked to indiewebcamp.com before (likely yes), ok I'll accept that site as a voucher, and
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tantek
the specific vouch URL, and thus the webmention.
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tantek
12. KartikPrabhu "I am still confused as to how to find a vouch URL to send?" If you're already a reader of B's content (which you should be, since you're sending them a comment on one of their permalinks), then you should already be somewhat familiar with who they link to (or can quickly check their home page or recent posts for people). You should also be relatively familiar with who links to you (hint: your recent incoming webment
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tantek
to *your* site).
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KartikPrabhu
yeah so that makes the whole thing manual. no auto-sending mentions
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tantek
12. … thus with a quick look at B's home page (or recent posts) you should be able to trivially recognize oh hey there's someone that sent me a webmention recently, and go pull that out of *your* queue/history of recent webmentions, thus giving you vouch URL to use.
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KartikPrabhu
this is making it too much work for sending...
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KartikPrabhu
comapre to replying on Twitter
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tantek
13. KevinMarks "So the vouch is a sponsor?" No, the vouch is not a "sponsor" or any other new term. The vouch is *just* a (perma)link, which B has linked to the domain of previously, and which directly links to A's domain.
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barnabywalters
kartikprabhu: I don’t know if that’s true. You’re asking a) for human attention and b) for the reciever to put your content on their site. Both non-trivial requests
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KartikPrabhu
barnabywalters: same with twitter replies. they show up below my tweet
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tantek
14. KartikPrabhu "so that makes the whole thing manual. no auto-sending mentions". Not true. For example see 11 - it is likely your code can programmatically itself test indiewebcamp.com/irc-people and use it as a default vouch.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: again people I already know is not the issue
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KevinMarks
Twitter replies have a show all/show those from people I follow toggle
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tantek
14.. continued: from there, you can decide how much intermediate UI you want to show, "The comment you sent is awaiting some form of vouching that they link to that links to you" with a URL field to enter. Plenty of opportunity to crawl, cache, innovate there. PLENTY.
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: those are only show/hide. when I send a reply, i don't get "oops go find someone you both know"
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tantek
15. KartikPrabhu "this is making it too much work for sending…" maybe. won't know until I (or others) attempt to implement and see what roadblocks we run into.
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Loqi
that doesn't make sense
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barnabywalters
kartikprabhu: twitter has a huge shared spam list (and it’s worth noting that even that is often not successful)
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KevinMarks
How you respond to webmentions is already up to you
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tantek
16. KartikPrabhu "compare to replying on Twitter" - compare to replying on Twitter to someone who has blocked you. Compare the noise of @-replies on Twitter to *any* permalink from *any* celebrity. All filled with crap. Often worse than YouTube comments.
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KevinMarks
This is a way to change default processing
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tantek
16… continued - Twitter is a lost cause in terms of reply quality. Nevermind the nonsensical twitter arguments/fights that otherwise intelligent people get into.
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KevinMarks
Not all twitter arguments: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/516294932940595200
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@kevinmarks
@BenedictEvans @fmanjoo @janwinter15 there is the commoditize your complements pattern there. See @maradydd on this https://medium.com/@maradydd/how-i-explained-heartbleed-to-my-therapist-4c1dbcbe1099 (twtr.io/rDtCD69RL0)
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tantek
17. KevinMarks "Twitter replies have a show all/show those from people I follow toggle" I see no such toggle, neither on my tweet permalinks, nor on others. For an example of poor conversation, e.g. see replies here: https://twitter.com/WhiteHouse/status/516248523096866816
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@WhiteHouse
"We’re deploying our doctors and scientists—supported by our military—to help corral the outbreak." —Obama on Ebola: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T_Jv4Kbgek (twtr.io/rDbcVegnSw)
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tantek
Ok I think I'm caught up :) Thanks for all the questions/challenges everyone.
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KartikPrabhu
in this vouch model an interaction like this: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516168689549193217 would never happen. I don't know any one who know Erik Spiekermann
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@kartik_prabhu
too many beautiful and insightful sentiments from @espiekermann to count. Absolutely love it. http://vimeo.com/95682050 (twtr.io/rD86P3j2Zc)
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KartikPrabhu
interaction = retweet by spiekermann
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KartikPrabhu
#notallfamouspeople
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: in general my goal with "vouch" (seriously, feel free to suggest a better name) was something *easy* for the *receiver* to process. Putting more burden on the sender IMO is the right principle/approach given how *less* burden on the sender turned out for email/trackback/pingback.
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barnabywalters
kartikprabhu: so you could choose to put that webmention in a human moderation queue (as per my flow above)
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barnabywalters
I see things like this as ways of automating moderation, with actual moderation as a last-resort fallback
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KartikPrabhu
barnabywalters: one could do human moderation without this vouch thingy too
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KartikPrabhu
i don't know what the vouch model adds
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tantek
I'm determined to build a system (at least for myself) with zero moderation tax.
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tantek
I don't have time nor inclination to read through all the crap that gets stuck in moderation - from experience moderating comments on microformats.org.
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barnabywalters
kartikprabhu: of course, things like vouch, hashcash, social graph crawling etc. remove the need for vast amounts of moderation
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tantek
you may choose to do so yourself, but it should be a choice. I shouldn't *have to* moderate.
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barnabywalters
leaving the rest to do manually, or ignore
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barnabywalters
human moderation with some spam prevention is the existing status quo (see: wordpress)
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barnabywalters
all of these other spam prevention/blacklisting etc. ideas simply layer on top of the existing methods, making them less and less work
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barnabywalters
it’s progressive enhancement of comment moderation
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KartikPrabhu
do people go back and see if their comment was accepted by moderator?
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ben_thatmust
well at some point someone has to say yes or no, it can't be all automated
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barnabywalters
kartikprabhu: I believe aaronpk has implemented async webmentions, with a status page which indicates the status of acceptance
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ben_thatmust
i think the goal is to make that as minimal as possible for those that choose to moderate.
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KartikPrabhu
yes, but does anyone go back to see the result of moderation, even in traditional comment forms?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I don't understand what your example of https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516168689549193217 demonstrates. I
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@kartik_prabhu
too many beautiful and insightful sentiments from @espiekermann to count. Absolutely love it. http://vimeo.com/95682050 (twtr.io/rD86P3j2Zc)
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tantek
see that you mentioned *his twitter* and linked to *vimeo* - neither of which accept webmentions.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: if Erik had said "i don't know you, go find someone to vouch for you before I read your tweet" what would I do?
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ben_thatmust
barnabywalters, kartikprabhu, I implemented a status of acceptance in the webmention receivers on openblog i just never turned on moderation (or had a UI) in theory its the exact same its just automatically setting to accept now
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: this is not webmention specific. just some interaction that would fail if it happened through webmention+vouch model
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: that thing I said before about using POSSE copy to POSSE copy threading to bootstrap
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tantek
just as we have use POSSE/Bridgy to bootstrap interactions with people stuck on silos
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tantek
we can use silo's own weaker mention policies to bootstrap into our indieweb 2nd degree
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: no. assume that this was not happening on Twitter but on indiewebsites.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: yes that's my point. assume that it's happening on indieweb sites
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tantek
and that you're both POSSEing to Twitter
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KevinMarks
This is a solution to the sea lion problem
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tantek
and that you're both supporting rel=syndication (including discovery), and original post discovery
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gRegor`
what is the sea lion problem?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "the sea lion problem" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+sea+lion+problem
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tantek
KartikPrabhu, your indieweb post webmention to his webmention post *fails* because he doesn't know you, HOWEVER
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KartikPrabhu
so what's the point? if my mention goes through Twitter anyway
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tantek
your indieweb post's POSSE tweet copy @-mentions his Twitter profile, through which he he does original post discovery on your post and then can add it that way.
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KartikPrabhu
I'll just go an interact with him on Twitter then.
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tantek
the point is that Twitter becomes just an ephemeral step in indieweb to indieweb mention recognition
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tantek
purely mechanically
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: why is going through Twitter more legit than sending a webmention?
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tantek
your site automatically POSSEs, his site automatically does original post discovery
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tantek
rather than "just go an interact with him on Twitter"
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KartikPrabhu
so POSSE becomes more mandatory
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tantek
no, fallbck
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tantek
as they are already today
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KartikPrabhu
what if I don't POSSE
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tantek
because not everyone has their own network
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: irrelevant - you do POSSE.
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KartikPrabhu
you are saying, even if 2 people have indiewebsites for some intereactions they need to have silo accounts and POSSE to them
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tantek
we can ignore worrying about such "what ifs" until we have real world implementations and real world comments to test.
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KartikPrabhu
<shrugs>
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KartikPrabhu
this whole spam is not real world yet
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it is, my webmentions queued in webmention.io are filled with spam
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tantek
due to Twitter spammers @-replying me
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KevinMarks
http://wondermark.com/1k62/ is the sea lion problem
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KartikPrabhu
well so going throiugh Twitter did not help either then :P
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tantek
so I personally (itch) have no choice here - I *have to* solve the webmention spam problem before I can even deploy it :/
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tantek
no "either then" - different scenario
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KartikPrabhu
so you will filter out any Twitter @-mention from people you don't know
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tantek
first scenario was indieweb->POSSE copy->POSSE copy->Indieweb
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tantek
this second scenario is purely indieweb->POSSE copy->silo reply
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@maymaymx
For those into #POSSE content workflows and/or #IndieWeb thingies, I finally added Publicize support to WP-Crosspost https://wordpress.org/plugins/wp-crosspost/ (twtr.io/rELKDKfo_B)
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tantek
don't conflate them
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gRegor`
KevinMarks: That is hilarious. Love it.
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KartikPrabhu
not conflating. vouch model makes both of these very complicated to handle
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tantek
I still don't understand *what* in particular you think is "complicated"
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tantek
pretty sure I've explained simply how to implement receiving vouches
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tantek
and sending vouches depends merely on the human/UI of picking a vouch URL
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tantek
which I think is a reasonable burden to place on a sender
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tantek
especially since for now, we're small enough as a community that anyone can add themselves to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek
that's not complicated
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tantek
nor hard
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KartikPrabhu
<shrug> if you don't mind many people not doing the second step even if their comment is legit, then its fine
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KartikPrabhu
I wouldn't bother for instance
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tantek
sure, adoption (by both sides) is an unkown
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tantek
you wouldn't bother checking for vouch or sending vouch?
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gRegor`
So if A mentions B, and B says "I need a vouch", but you have no vouch in common with B, you use the POSSE copy as a fallback, correct?
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KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: who uses POSSE fallback?
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tantek
gRegor`: I'm fairly disbelieving in "you have no vouch in common with B", I bet you could even crowd source it here in the channel
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KevinMarks
Would your twitter followings be an implicit vouch for webmentions POSSEd by bridgy?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: hence I gave the Spiekermann example.
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tantek
KevinMarks: you could choose to treat them that way. that's one of the methods I mentioned above.
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Loqi
[mention] http://dblogit.com/2014/08/30/repost/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention (pingback)
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@maymaym
RT @maymaymx: For those into #POSSE content workflows and/or #IndieWeb thingies, I finally added Publicize support to WP-Crosspost https://… (twtr.io/rELqzL9pwG)
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gRegor`
tantek: Someone sets up a withknown.com site and we have no interactions or mutual friends. Seems it could become pretty common.
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tantek
gRegor`: I am going to predict that the first widescale webmention spammer we are going to see will be from a withknown site.
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KartikPrabhu
this is all fine and good, if you already are in the same extended circle
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: By "POSSE fallback" I mean since B won't get your webmention, they will see your POSSE copy mention instead. I'm not sure I'm full understanding this vouching conversation though, so just asking questions.
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KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: but they don't know me on twitter either but they accept Twitter copy.... this seems weird
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: another way of putting this is that vouch URL discovery (finding vouch URLs between you and some other person) will be a source of a lot of innovation, search, crawling, indexing, caching etc.
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KartikPrabhu
that is what I don't understand
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tantek
and that's a *good thing*
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gRegor`
Unless they're private or have you blocked on twitter, there is no "accepting" you. They just get a mention, plain and simple.
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tantek
right, maybe they're ok with the silo profiles being more spammy
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tantek
than their own personal site
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tantek
that's fine, we aim for higher quality on the indieweb
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tantek
if spammers resort to only using silos, then we've won
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gRegor`
So if my understanding so far is correct, in that situation, how do A and B get to a point where the webmention can be sent and vouched? Will B have to manually add A to his approved senders / nickname cache / whatever first?
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tantek
gRegor`: that's part of the beauty of it - that's up to B to decide, thus making it opaque to spammers, thus making any generic/global approach not scale, thus making it uneconomical to spam.
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gRegor`
Sure
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gRegor`
tantek: Out of curiosity, is a lot of your webmention.io junk from people mis-typing a twitter name? I know @justin gets a lot of mis-addressed tweets like "@justin bieber" heh
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tantek
gRegor`: no bridgy doesn't send those.
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tantek
only @-replies to actual tweets
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tantek
which have a in_reply_to_status_id set on them
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gRegor`
Ah, right
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KevinMarks
That is a big defect in twitter
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: btw, when people don't have webmentions show up (due to any kind of rejection) they will do what they do today
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tantek
they come here to IRC
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KevinMarks
(twitter as it is now)
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tantek
and say hey I tried webmentioning so and so
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tantek
did you get my webmention?
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tantek
etc.
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tantek
the last fallback will be human-to-human, actual social networking
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tantek
which is just fine
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gRegor`
I will be interested in seeing vouching implemented. I think it will help me understand it better.
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KartikPrabhu
heh most Known signees aren't even on the IRC, i doubt more people will be
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KevinMarks
Check out @samusclone's Tweet: https://twitter.com/samusclone/status/515553801173209088
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@samusclone
ello implemented the ability to reply to someone BEFORE implementing blocking, which is a fun "how to tell men designed this" game (twtr.io/r9UTBYzfJ8)
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KartikPrabhu
stays out of the "men did this" game
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gRegor`
Heh, yeah. Not sure most withknown.com users know what webmention is, or that they can comment on other non-known, non-silo sites. E.g. this thread with my firend Scott https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/512650030184804352
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@gRegorLove
@itsscottwilder If you have @withknown set up, try posting a status in reply to http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/ and it will show up there. #indieweb (twtr.io/qsB9J9_5eC)
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barnabywalters
wrt blocking, I’m a little stumped as to how to implement it effectively in shrewdness
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gRegor`
I have some Ello invites, by the way, if anyone would like to check it out.
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KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: yup. so if webmention is rejected people will ask here is not right
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gRegor`
(Scott's reply to my note up there was "really?")
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barnabywalters
hiding anything matching a domain or domain+path is easy enough, but what about other cases like POSSE copies and reposts on other sites
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barnabywalters
or, for example, people quoting blocked people’s content without linking to it in e.g. u-in-reply-to
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barnabywalters
if I block troll.com, should a post from one of my friends which links to troll.com be shown?
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barnabywalters
wonders
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barnabywalters
argh
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barnabywalters
wondering if erinjo/benwerd have done any user research in this area
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barnabywalters
or anyone else, for that matter
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gregorlove.com
edited /Ello (-21) "invite-only, rm clearing linebreak (nothing is floated)." (view diff)
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KevinMarks
I'm payoff attention to collectqt as they discuss this https://gitlab.com/collectqt/quirell/issues/16
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KevinMarks
This is also interesting https://gitlab.com/collectqt/quirell/issues/15
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bear
I missed some of the above conversation - but i'm wondering if the work i'm doing for indie-stats can also be used as a vouch list
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bear
because I'm gathering indieweb sites and have the start of a claim process
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kylewm
KevinMarks++ for the CollectQT issues. My take-away is that spam prevention is not necessarily the same as harrassment/abuse prevention
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 61 karma
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KevinMarks_
Right, and we need to think about those cases too
#
KartikPrabhu
snarfed: kylewm: for https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516098616595734528 any idea why none of joeld's replies ended up being sent to me by bridgy? original post https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld
#
@kartik_prabhu
@joeld I appreciate the sentiment and the idea of this post but, I think the suggestion is misguided more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld #indieweb (twtr.io/rCi4Uf2UUo)
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: KevinMarks_: how is spam different from harrassment? both are unwanted interactions
#
kylewm
KartikPrabhu: looking at bridgy
#
KevinMarks_
Spam is automated, scattershot
#
gRegor`
Spam doesn't usually have an emotional effect, either.
#
kylewm
and it's unlikely you would be sent spam by a follower of a follower
#
KevinMarks_
Harassment is personal, targeted, often obsessive
#
KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: I meant from a blocking perspective
#
kylewm
from a blocking perspective, vouch wouldn't be good enough to prevent harrassment
#
kylewm
good actor A may follow bad actor B, for any number of reasons
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: blacklists
#
KartikPrabhu
liek twitter blocking
#
KartikPrabhu
i can use them for both spam and harrassment accounts
#
kylewm
maybe, if you can subscribe/share a blacklst
#
KartikPrabhu
ad-blocks do that all the time
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#
KartikPrabhu
also, my personal blacklist need not be shared/used by everyone
#
kylewm
no, not by everyone
#
tantek
reads logs since
#
kylewm
I think the issue with blacklist/whitelist/heuristics is that it's always an arms race
#
KartikPrabhu
so is any solution you make
#
tantek
kylewm: until it isn't. I'm not convinced it's unwinnable.
#
tantek
all you have to do is make it not economically feasible for mass spamming and you win
#
tantek
that can be achieved through a natural diversity of approaches
#
KartikPrabhu
block chain verification ala bitcoin :P
#
tantek
the opposite of monoculture
#
kylewm
make it not economically feasible requires something at the spec level, right?
#
tantek
kylewm: it requires flexibility at the spec level for diversity at the implementation level
#
kylewm
i don't think it's possible for example to solve the problem for email
#
tantek
it is that natural diversity of approaches that makes it impractial to build a mass spammer
#
tantek
kylewm: correct, email is a lost cause.
#
tantek
back to in order
#
KartikPrabhu
gets very little spam on email because of Gmail's good filtering
#
kylewm
that's not a solution though
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: I get several pieces of spam per day in Gmail.
#
kylewm
email is so hard to set up now that people just don't do it
#
KartikPrabhu
what!?
#
tantek
right, it's actually getting *more* centralized
#
KartikPrabhu
oh ok
#
kylewm
joeld pointed out that email has DKIM to deter spam, but it also deters people from self-hosting
#
KartikPrabhu
any spam solution you make for webmention can be applied to email too, unless it depends on the spec
#
KartikPrabhu
I can tell unknown people that they need a "recommendation from someone I know" before I accept their emails
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's too much harder to maintain an email server than a webserver
#
KartikPrabhu
well it is hard to make webmention that a static blog...
#
KartikPrabhu
than*
#
KartikPrabhu
any piece of functionality you add will make things more complex
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: possibly, unless it replaces more complexity
#
KartikPrabhu
goes for a walk since he does not understand this discussion at any level
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#
tantek
back to the logs
#
tantek
16:51 gRegor` "interested in seeing vouching implemented. I think it will help me understand it better." indeed, implementation will help illustrate. so will a UX flow.
#
KevinMarks_
In a sense this vouch idea is reviving the early LinkedIn model
#
KevinMarks_
Though there they had the person vouching review the message
#
tantek
KevinMarks - you're making the same mistake KartikPrabhu did with email.
#
tantek
LinkedIn and email require all steps to be manual
#
tantek
whereas by actually using the web, likely all steps of vouching can be automated
#
tantek
vouching uses existing publishing behaviors and linking patterns
#
tantek
none of this explicit awkward "Connect with me on Linked in!" crap
#
tantek
*huge* difference
#
tantek
socially, UX etc.
#
tantek
16:56 barnabywalters wrt "blocking, I’m a little stumped as to how to implement it effectively in shrewdness" start with use-cases
#
tantek
what is blocking?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "blocking" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=blocking
#
tantek.com
created /blocking (+19) "r" (view diff)
#
tantek
!tell barnabywalters re: "stumped as to how to implement blocking" see http://indiewebcamp.com/block
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
KevinMarks_
I mean the party of LinkedIn where it would show the social connection between you and a person and you choose a person to vouch for you
#
KevinMarks_
s/party/part/
#
Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: I mean the part of LinkedIn where it would show the social connection between you and a person and you choose a person to vouch for you
#
tantek
and then it would bug them to do so - again, socially awkward, and too many steps
#
tantek
vouch protocol has no such nonsense - the intermediary is not bothered one bit
#
KevinMarks_
Right, which makes more sense
#
tantek
that's the problem with email and any YASNS based thinking on this
#
tantek
every email-framing solution involves, how can we use sending email to solve this problem
#
tantek
and send more email
#
tantek
and for YASNS, instead of email, you get more YASNS based messages to respond to
#
KevinMarks_
Originally Friendster had "n steps between you" visible messages, that's closer
#
KevinMarks_
N started at 4 or 5 and got pruned fast as they grew
#
kylewm
!tell KartikPrabhu best guess for the Bridgy issue is that Twitter search glitched and missed all of joeld's mentions before https://twitter.com/joeld/status/516103704161050624
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
kylewm
!tell KartikPrabhu and then it marked "last activity id" as that id, and didn't go back to look for mentions from before then
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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#
kylewm
GWG: are you around?
#
ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+7) "delete from micropub now working" (view diff)
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#
ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /Micropub (+49) "delete from micropub now working" (view diff)
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#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: ok cool. will backfeed manually
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 16 minutes ago: best guess for the Bridgy issue is that Twitter search glitched and missed all of joeld's mentions before https://twitter.com/joeld/status/516103704161050624
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 15 minutes ago: and then it marked "last activity id" as that id, and didn't go back to look for mentions from before then
#
KartikPrabhu
if I write a post saying " troll.com has been bothering me and so I blocked them " can troll.com use it as a vouch?
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#
GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
#
GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
#
GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
#
GWG
>
#
GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
#
GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
#
GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
#
GWG
>
#
GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
#
GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
#
GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
#
GWG
>
#
GWG
On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
#
GWG
> Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
#
GWG
> heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
#
tantek
huh?
#
GWG
>
#
tantek
GWG - overpasting?
#
GWG
I pasted all that?
#
GWG
Sorry
#
GWG
Didn't realize I did that
#
KartikPrabhu
given a tweet, how does one find whhich tweet it is in reply to?
#
GWG
I commented on something and started a flame war
#
GWG
kylewm: Were you looking for me?
#
GWG
Must have hit a key combo
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#
ben_thatmust_
under two weeks till iwc Cambridge. excited
#
GWG
ben_thatmust_: Regrettably, I'll only be remote again. It is surrounded by conflict
#
parzzix
cool ben_thatmust_, should be a good time for those attending
#
ben_thatmust_
surrounded by conflict?
#
GWG
I'll be busy Thu and Fri out of town, then the next week, Sunday the 19th, starts my vacation.
#
GWG
It's just not a good time to divert to Boston.
#
GWG
Otherwise, I'd book a hotel and be there
#
GWG
I guess I'll get my webcam and talky in from the woods.
#
ben_thatmust_
if our house remodel was finished I'd offer up a free stay top the chat
#
GWG
Next time. It is, as I said, a busy time of year. I have absolutely nothing after that confirmed.
#
GWG
ben_thatmust_: I think I fixed the HTML problem, by the way. Still holding off on the time problem as it appears to be more complicated and I want to understand why.
#
@parzzix
I think I am liking the idea of flat files vs databases. Can anyone name the #indieweb projects that use flat files. (twtr.io/rEcnurQyoY)
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: do you know how to find out if a tweet is in reply to another tweet from the tweet data-* attributes?
#
Loqi
[mention] https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/filestorage-timapple linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage#IndieWeb_Examples (webmention)
#
@kartik_prabhu
@parzzix see: http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage#IndieWeb_Examples (twtr.io/rEdUMXezvm)
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#
ben_thatmust_
beat me to it kartikprabhu
#
KartikPrabhu
:) with POSSE, and webmention too :D
#
ben_thatmust_
yeah, was trying to do it from my cell phone was the problem
#
KartikPrabhu
aah yes :)
#
KartikPrabhu
keyboards are still faster :)
#
ben_thatmust_
and trying to grab the twitter link loaded the twitter app
#
ben_thatmust_
didn't give me a url to reply to
#
ben_thatmust_
got deleting working from my micropub endpoint
#
ben_thatmust_
decision between adding events, replys, or editing next
#
ben_thatmust_
also seems to be somewhat a duplication of /storage
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#
tantek
ben_thatmust: or we just need to use more {{main|..}} links there
#
tantek
I can help with that
#
tantek.com
edited /storage (-349) "main / see specific database pages" (view diff)
#
ben_thatmust_
i should probably add openblog to the list of database users
#
Loqi
I agree
#
KevinMarks_
Anyone looked at rstat.us?
#
Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kartik_prabhu/516421657187999746/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage#IndieWeb_Examples (webmention)
#
KartikPrabhu
is looking at and playing with new Twitter API: https://dev.twitter.com/rest/public
#
KevinMarks_
New?
#
tantek
KevinMarks - rstatus is quite old -
#
KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ : this is the 1.1 version. or at least this documentation is new
#
KartikPrabhu
or me has not seen it before
#
KevinMarks_
Check out @Carols10cents's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Carols10cents/status/516422630405320704
#
@Carols10cents
Sharing this from my own instance of rstatus that you can't make an account for, that i created using the fancy heroku button :) :) :) (twtr.io/rEdpD5ajdQ)
#
tantek
ah that's interesting then
#
tantek
what is rstatus?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "rstatus" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rstatus
#
KartikPrabhu
interesting.... that Twitter API has no way of getting recent favourites... :(
#
kylewm
wilkie from the social wg is a cofounder of rstatus
#
kylewm
KartikPrabhu: ha yes quite a large hassle in bridgy
#
KartikPrabhu
booo
#
tantek.com
edited /MongoDB (+490) "add past indieweb example benwerd, more see also" (view diff)
#
tantek
!tell benwerd I presume from http://werd.io/2014/thedavidjohnson-we-actually-recommend-mysql-known-started-with-mongodb-but that you're using MySQL on werd.io? If not please correct me here: indiewebcamp.com/MongoDB
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah it is annoying. even retrieving the actual tweet object only shows a fav/retweet count and not the actual people doing it :|
#
tantek
pretty sure that barnabywalters wrote a parsing shim to get reply-chain info from a tweet
#
KartikPrabhu
re: blacklists the Twitter API also allows to add/remove blocked/mutes users so a local blacklist can then be propagated to Twitter so you never get mentions from them via Twitter
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#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: just to note you can get favourites through the Streaming API: https://dev.twitter.com/streaming/overview/messages-types#Events_event
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#
tantek.com
edited /PostgreSQL (+490) "add Voxpelli, subsections" (view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /MySQL (+444) "split indieweb examples into primary storage, secondary storage, caching" (view diff)
#
tantek
there we go - /storage now links to /file-storage and individual database pages, and the indieweb examples for each have been moved to the specific pages
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#
tantek
ooh actually I still need to add more of the flat file examples to file-storage
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#
@kevinmarks
@Pinboard put it on a server and you're almost indieweb (twtr.io/rEjdKAWLaC)
#
KevinMarks_
Check out @Pinboard's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/516434288867160066
#
@Pinboard
Just type your friend’s names into a textfile and open it in your browser. Sustainable, local, indie, DIY social networking at its finest (twtr.io/rEhz5yG6g6)
#
GWG
Hmm....the Pinboard developer, whose name escapes me, is a real character
#
KevinMarks_
Maciej
#
KevinMarks_
He is good fun
#
GWG
KevinMarks_: That part I remembered. I was trying to remember how to spell his last name.
#
GWG
KevinMarks_: I signed up for Pinboard. I like minimalism.
#
GWG
Of course, now I have 31,000 bookmarks and I do little with them.
#
GWG
Which begs an Indieweb solution.
#
GWG
But I'm not there yet
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#
KevinMarks_
We had a fun chat about social network standards a few years ago http://tummelvision.tv/2011/12/30/tummelvision-91-maciej-ceglowski-of-pinboard/
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: having too many bookmarks is a human problem not a tech problem
#
KevinMarks_
Ceglowski
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: Curation is an issue.
#
KartikPrabhu
yup again a human issue
#
KartikPrabhu
like more technology can't solve "i follow too many people"
#
KartikPrabhu
it is tempting to think that technology (indieweb) can solve all of these, but i don't think it can
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I have that problem to
#
GWG
too
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: The problem I think that can be solved isn't the one you are implying
#
GWG
And possibly not the one I'm implying.
#
GWG
The issue is they live in there and I do nothing with them.
#
GWG
An Indieweb solution would have me doing something with them.
#
KartikPrabhu
like what?
#
GWG
I've never gotten into Pinboard as a social service. I use it as a searchable link archive
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: Sharing with others, for one?
#
KartikPrabhu
you can still delete them no?
#
GWG
What if I need one?
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: if you think all your bookmarks are overwhelmingly too many, why would they be useful to others?
#
KartikPrabhu
a curated list would be more useful
#
KartikPrabhu
but you can curate in a simple text file
#
KartikPrabhu
or on paper actually.
#
KartikPrabhu
but yeah don't let my cynicism stop you
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I meant as a new workflow. Not reinvigorating the old bookmarks.
#
GWG
Instead of sending them to Pinboard, when they are fresh and interesting, put them into my feed.
#
tantek
that's what adactio does
#
tantek
he posts /bookmarks
#
GWG
Don't many people?
#
GWG
Isn't that really popular in some forums?
#
KartikPrabhu
he posts links
#
KartikPrabhu
bookmarks to me mean "this is interesting enough to save for future revisiting"
#
tantek
they are the same
#
tantek
since by posting he is saving
#
tantek
and can even search them
#
KartikPrabhu
does not solve the "there are too many things in my bookmarks" problem
#
KartikPrabhu
I can search in a text file too
#
GWG
I'm saying I could do both too if I wanted to.
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: Are you warning me I may annoy my friends and family?
#
GWG
And those who watch my feed?
#
KartikPrabhu
no. I am saying it does not solve *your* problem of having too many bookmarks
#
KartikPrabhu
in a feed bookmarks disappear after a while
#
KartikPrabhu
has been really riled up about "this new tech will solve all my problems" talk everywhere
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: New tech won't solve all my problems
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: New tech may change my problems
#
tantek
Mo tech, mo problems ;)
#
KartikPrabhu
<shrug> good then. don't let me stop you
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: New tech is only part of a solution, not the solution by itself.
#
KartikPrabhu
yes that is what I am saying
#
KartikPrabhu
indieweb won't make me a better bookmarker
#
GWG
So...Problem: I hoard bookmarks without doing anything with them.
#
GWG
Possible Solution: Do something with them
#
GWG
Also: Stop Hoarding them
#
KartikPrabhu
don't know indieweb solves the last bit
#
GWG
The Also or the Possible Solution?
#
KartikPrabhu
aslo
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#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: It doesn't solve the hoarding. But baby steps
#
KartikPrabhu
indieweb will give you the ability to hoard and share more bookmarks on your own site
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: Which accomplishes the goal of engaging in a dialogue about interesting topics of the day.
#
KartikPrabhu
don't need a bookmark for that. a simple post will do
#
@sovryntech
Don't let the smartphone put an end to the #PCrevolution. The revolution hasn't ended. #StopTheCloud #GoLocal #ClientSide4Life #OwnYourData (twtr.io/rEmhNWM1N9)
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I recently redefined Bookmark on my site as the equivalent of Sharing a Link to an article, with or without comment, in other venues.
#
KartikPrabhu
there we go "PC will solve the own you own data" problem ^^
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: if that is what you want "bookmark" to be then sure
#
GWG
Well, someone told me Share was too generic.
#
GWG
I still haven't figured out Like
#
GWG
Or Favorite.
#
GWG
And what it means to me
#
KartikPrabhu
I take all of these to mean the actual English meaning
#
KartikPrabhu
stops himself looking for an online dictionary
#
GWG
The wiki implies Like is 'compliments' to the original post/poster and Favorite is special to the favoring party.
#
KartikPrabhu
<shrug> I haven't been following the wiki definitions if they conflict with mine
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I can't figure out what my definitions are.
#
KevinMarks_
I use pinboard as a PESESTAS target for bookmarks from twitter etc
#
GWG
I just realized this week that I'm going to define bookmark as "I find this interesting enough to note."
#
GWG
Which is a very weak definition.
#
KartikPrabhu
if it suits your use, who cares if it is "weak"
#
KartikPrabhu
this is not math
#
GWG
Well, I am thinking of adopting Favorite the way acegiak does, to indicate my interests.
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I overthink everything.
#
GWG
Which is good and bad.
#
tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+1352) "add a few examples from /storage, why, how" (view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /file-storage (+14) "/* See Also */ storge" (view diff)
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: Either way, I'm scratching itches. I may have to rescratch many times before I get it to my satisfaction
#
tantek
quite a few flat file storage users here. looks almost split 50/50 with db users.
#
tantek
time to document that split up front on database-antipattern
#
GWG
tantek, do you have any thoughts on differing definitions of terms like bookmark, like, and favorite?
#
tantek
what is a bookmark?
#
Loqi
A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is typically comprised of a URL and optional text accompanying it http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
#
tantek
what is a like?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "like" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=like
#
tantek
what
#
tantek
darn MySQL stopwords :P
#
KartikPrabhu
lol
#
GWG
Then what is http://indiewebcamp.com/like
#
tantek
what is a favorite
#
Loqi
A favorite is a common webaction on many silos (e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite
#
tantek
hey that's not useful
#
tantek
bitten by e.g. again
#
GWG
I need to redesign this... https://david.shanske.com/kind/bookmark/
#
GWG
I've been staring at it for a bit now.
#
tantek.com
edited /favorite (-26) "fix dfn, shorten description" (view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: since you updated favourite, what is the diff. between bookmark and favourite apart from presentation. As in the intent?
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#
tantek.com
edited /favorite (+85) "emojicon" (view diff)
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#
KevinMarks
The different valence of star vs heart is tricky with favourite/like
#
tantek
KevinMarks: valence? what do electrons have to do with it?
#
GWG
KevinMarks: Where are the yellow moons and the green clovers?
#
tantek
anyone know how to just block all *.google.com 3rd party embeds? I'm getting tired of Google server slowness / bad latency slowing down page loads across the web. just want to block the entirety of all *.google.com embedding of any form
#
KevinMarks
http://m.fastcodesign.com/1670890/how-airbnb-evolved-to-focus-on-social-rather-than-searches
#
tantek
nice - actual data on "heart" icon having more engagement than "star"
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: google servers have bad latency! what hope is there for individual servers
#
KartikPrabhu
or other cdns
#
KevinMarks
You could use a hosts file, but you'd need to enumerate the google hosted subdomains
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: google's *embedding* servers
#
tantek
they don't care about other people pages being slow
#
tantek
only their own
#
tantek
only *some* of their own
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KevinMarks
They used to.
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tantek
e.g. G+ is still slow as a brick
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KevinMarks
Hm
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neuro`
Good mognint
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KartikPrabhu
in my experiece G+ is faster then Twitter's JS loading
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KartikPrabhu
good mognint neuro`
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KevinMarks
There is an internal market for server resources. Maybe they have tweaked it against the public facing things
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tantek
I'd love to come up with shared block list for embedded slow things
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tantek
like AdBlock, but SlowBlock
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KevinMarks
Or maybe they only test in chrome using spdy now
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tantek
developers embed so much crap from Google. JQuery, Fonts, Analytics etc.
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KevinMarks
The jquery+fonts should give cross-site caching
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KevinMarks
That's the theory
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KevinMarks
Analytics won't, clearly
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tantek
yeah the theory. I'm so tired of it I just want to block it all.
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KartikPrabhu
i use google fonts all the time, and they cache well
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GWG
tantek: There is only so much you can do in a day
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neuro`
tantek: use addons like ghostery to block everything that's not from the site you're visiting.
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neuro`
Had some nasty surprises when the CSS is on a CDN
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tantek
from KevinMarks's fastcodesign link
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tantek
"This might seem like a minor detail, but as any good engineer will tell you, speed equals engagement. "
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: would you suggest serving all fonts from my own server?
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TysonBrooks
Anyone around tried to install withknown in a sub-folder? I'm having issues.
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@fdevillamil
Blog: If you still haven’t dropped Feedburner, this may convince you to do it. #indieweb https://t37.net/if-you-haven-t-dropped-feedburner-yet-this-mind-blowing-reason-will-convince-you-to-do-it.html https://twitter.com/fdevillamil/status/516469605729304577/photo/1 (twtr.io/rEvb3jnXGH)
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acegiak
So last night I rewrote my brainstorming engine and, thinking of the whole antipattern controversy, realised I didn't need a database for this project
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