#indiewebcamp 2014-09-29

2014-09-29 UTC
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gregorlove.com edited /Ello (-21) "invite-only, rm clearing linebreak (nothing is floated)." (view diff)
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KevinMarks I'm payoff attention to collectqt as they discuss this https://gitlab.com/collectqt/quirell/issues/16
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KevinMarks This is also interesting https://gitlab.com/collectqt/quirell/issues/15
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bear I missed some of the above conversation - but i'm wondering if the work i'm doing for indie-stats can also be used as a vouch list
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bear because I'm gathering indieweb sites and have the start of a claim process
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kylewm KevinMarks++ for the CollectQT issues. My take-away is that spam prevention is not necessarily the same as harrassment/abuse prevention
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Loqi KevinMarks has 61 karma
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KevinMarks_ Right, and we need to think about those cases too
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: kylewm: for https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/516098616595734528 any idea why none of joeld's replies ended up being sent to me by bridgy? original post https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld
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@kartik_prabhu @joeld I appreciate the sentiment and the idea of this post but, I think the suggestion is misguided more: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-joeld #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/516098616595734528)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: KevinMarks_: how is spam different from harrassment? both are unwanted interactions
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: looking at bridgy
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KevinMarks_ Spam is automated, scattershot
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gRegor` Spam doesn't usually have an emotional effect, either.
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kylewm and it's unlikely you would be sent spam by a follower of a follower
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KevinMarks_ Harassment is personal, targeted, often obsessive
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: I meant from a blocking perspective
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kylewm from a blocking perspective, vouch wouldn't be good enough to prevent harrassment
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kylewm good actor A may follow bad actor B, for any number of reasons
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: blacklists
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KartikPrabhu liek twitter blocking
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KartikPrabhu i can use them for both spam and harrassment accounts
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kylewm maybe, if you can subscribe/share a blacklst
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KartikPrabhu ad-blocks do that all the time
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KartikPrabhu also, my personal blacklist need not be shared/used by everyone
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kylewm no, not by everyone
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tantek reads logs since
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kylewm I think the issue with blacklist/whitelist/heuristics is that it's always an arms race
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KartikPrabhu so is any solution you make
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tantek kylewm: until it isn't. I'm not convinced it's unwinnable.
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tantek all you have to do is make it not economically feasible for mass spamming and you win
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tantek that can be achieved through a natural diversity of approaches
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KartikPrabhu block chain verification ala bitcoin :P
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tantek the opposite of monoculture
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kylewm make it not economically feasible requires something at the spec level, right?
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tantek kylewm: it requires flexibility at the spec level for diversity at the implementation level
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kylewm i don't think it's possible for example to solve the problem for email
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tantek it is that natural diversity of approaches that makes it impractial to build a mass spammer
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tantek kylewm: correct, email is a lost cause.
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tantek back to in order
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KartikPrabhu gets very little spam on email because of Gmail's good filtering
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kylewm that's not a solution though
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I get several pieces of spam per day in Gmail.
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kylewm email is so hard to set up now that people just don't do it
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KartikPrabhu what!?
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tantek right, it's actually getting *more* centralized
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KartikPrabhu oh ok
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kylewm joeld pointed out that email has DKIM to deter spam, but it also deters people from self-hosting
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KartikPrabhu any spam solution you make for webmention can be applied to email too, unless it depends on the spec
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KartikPrabhu I can tell unknown people that they need a "recommendation from someone I know" before I accept their emails
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's too much harder to maintain an email server than a webserver
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KartikPrabhu well it is hard to make webmention that a static blog...
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KartikPrabhu than*
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KartikPrabhu any piece of functionality you add will make things more complex
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tantek KartikPrabhu: possibly, unless it replaces more complexity
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KartikPrabhu goes for a walk since he does not understand this discussion at any level
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tantek back to the logs
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tantek 16:51 gRegor` "interested in seeing vouching implemented. I think it will help me understand it better." indeed, implementation will help illustrate. so will a UX flow.
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KevinMarks_ In a sense this vouch idea is reviving the early LinkedIn model
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KevinMarks_ Though there they had the person vouching review the message
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tantek KevinMarks - you're making the same mistake KartikPrabhu did with email.
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tantek LinkedIn and email require all steps to be manual
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tantek whereas by actually using the web, likely all steps of vouching can be automated
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tantek vouching uses existing publishing behaviors and linking patterns
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tantek none of this explicit awkward "Connect with me on Linked in!" crap
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tantek *huge* difference
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tantek socially, UX etc.
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tantek 16:56 barnabywalters wrt "blocking, I’m a little stumped as to how to implement it effectively in shrewdness" start with use-cases
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tantek what is blocking?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "blocking" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=blocking
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tantek.com created /blocking (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek !tell barnabywalters re: "stumped as to how to implement blocking" see http://indiewebcamp.com/block
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks_ I mean the party of LinkedIn where it would show the social connection between you and a person and you choose a person to vouch for you
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KevinMarks_ s/party/part/
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Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: I mean the part of LinkedIn where it would show the social connection between you and a person and you choose a person to vouch for you
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tantek and then it would bug them to do so - again, socially awkward, and too many steps
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tantek vouch protocol has no such nonsense - the intermediary is not bothered one bit
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KevinMarks_ Right, which makes more sense
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tantek that's the problem with email and any YASNS based thinking on this
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tantek every email-framing solution involves, how can we use sending email to solve this problem
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tantek and send more email
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tantek and for YASNS, instead of email, you get more YASNS based messages to respond to
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KevinMarks_ Originally Friendster had "n steps between you" visible messages, that's closer
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KevinMarks_ N started at 4 or 5 and got pruned fast as they grew
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kylewm !tell KartikPrabhu best guess for the Bridgy issue is that Twitter search glitched and missed all of joeld's mentions before https://twitter.com/joeld/status/516103704161050624
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm !tell KartikPrabhu and then it marked "last activity id" as that id, and didn't go back to look for mentions from before then
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm GWG: are you around?
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+7) "delete from micropub now working" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Micropub (+49) "delete from micropub now working" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: ok cool. will backfeed manually
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 16 minutes ago: best guess for the Bridgy issue is that Twitter search glitched and missed all of joeld's mentions before https://twitter.com/joeld/status/516103704161050624
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 15 minutes ago: and then it marked "last activity id" as that id, and didn't go back to look for mentions from before then
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KartikPrabhu if I write a post saying " troll.com has been bothering me and so I blocked them " can troll.com use it as a vouch?
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GWG On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG > Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG > heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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GWG >
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GWG On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG > Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG > heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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GWG >
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GWG On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG > Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG > heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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GWG >
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GWG On 9/28/14 at 6:58pm, {suser:saracen1187} wrote:
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GWG > Hi, if anyone send a message criticizing what you wrote in my story, don't take it to
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GWG > heart. I appreciate all contributions :)
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tantek huh?
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GWG >
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tantek GWG - overpasting?
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GWG I pasted all that?
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GWG Sorry
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GWG Didn't realize I did that
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KartikPrabhu given a tweet, how does one find whhich tweet it is in reply to?
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GWG I commented on something and started a flame war
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GWG kylewm: Were you looking for me?
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GWG Must have hit a key combo
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ben_thatmust_ under two weeks till iwc Cambridge. excited
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GWG ben_thatmust_: Regrettably, I'll only be remote again. It is surrounded by conflict
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parzzix cool ben_thatmust_, should be a good time for those attending
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ben_thatmust_ surrounded by conflict?
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GWG I'll be busy Thu and Fri out of town, then the next week, Sunday the 19th, starts my vacation.
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GWG It's just not a good time to divert to Boston.
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GWG Otherwise, I'd book a hotel and be there
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GWG I guess I'll get my webcam and talky in from the woods.
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ben_thatmust_ if our house remodel was finished I'd offer up a free stay top the chat
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GWG Next time. It is, as I said, a busy time of year. I have absolutely nothing after that confirmed.
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GWG ben_thatmust_: I think I fixed the HTML problem, by the way. Still holding off on the time problem as it appears to be more complicated and I want to understand why.
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@parzzix I think I am liking the idea of flat files vs databases. Can anyone name the #indieweb projects that use flat files. (twitter.com/_/status/516419770208755712)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: do you know how to find out if a tweet is in reply to another tweet from the tweet data-* attributes?
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Loqi [mention] https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/filestorage-timapple linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage#IndieWeb_Examples (webmention)
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@kartik_prabhu @parzzix see: http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage#IndieWeb_Examples (twitter.com/_/status/516421657187999746)
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ben_thatmust_ beat me to it kartikprabhu
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KartikPrabhu :) with POSSE, and webmention too :D
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ben_thatmust_ yeah, was trying to do it from my cell phone was the problem
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KartikPrabhu aah yes :)
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KartikPrabhu keyboards are still faster :)
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ben_thatmust_ and trying to grab the twitter link loaded the twitter app
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ben_thatmust_ didn't give me a url to reply to
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ben_thatmust_ got deleting working from my micropub endpoint
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ben_thatmust_ decision between adding events, replys, or editing next
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ben_thatmust_ also seems to be somewhat a duplication of /storage
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tantek ben_thatmust: or we just need to use more {{main|..}} links there
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tantek I can help with that
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tantek.com edited /storage (-349) "main / see specific database pages" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust_ i should probably add openblog to the list of database users
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Loqi I agree
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KevinMarks_ Anyone looked at rstat.us?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kartik_prabhu/516421657187999746/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage#IndieWeb_Examples (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu is looking at and playing with new Twitter API: https://dev.twitter.com/rest/public
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KevinMarks_ New?
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tantek KevinMarks - rstatus is quite old -
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ : this is the 1.1 version. or at least this documentation is new
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KartikPrabhu or me has not seen it before
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KevinMarks_ Check out @Carols10cents's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Carols10cents/status/516422630405320704
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@Carols10cents Sharing this from my own instance of rstatus that you can't make an account for, that i created using the fancy heroku button :) :) :) (twitter.com/_/status/516422630405320704)
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tantek ah that's interesting then
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tantek what is rstatus?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rstatus" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rstatus
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KartikPrabhu interesting.... that Twitter API has no way of getting recent favourites... :(
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kylewm wilkie from the social wg is a cofounder of rstatus
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: ha yes quite a large hassle in bridgy
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KartikPrabhu booo
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tantek.com edited /MongoDB (+490) "add past indieweb example benwerd, more see also" (view diff)
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tantek !tell benwerd I presume from http://werd.io/2014/thedavidjohnson-we-actually-recommend-mysql-known-started-with-mongodb-but that you're using MySQL on werd.io? If not please correct me here: indiewebcamp.com/MongoDB
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah it is annoying. even retrieving the actual tweet object only shows a fav/retweet count and not the actual people doing it :|
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tantek pretty sure that barnabywalters wrote a parsing shim to get reply-chain info from a tweet
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KartikPrabhu re: blacklists the Twitter API also allows to add/remove blocked/mutes users so a local blacklist can then be propagated to Twitter so you never get mentions from them via Twitter
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: just to note you can get favourites through the Streaming API: https://dev.twitter.com/streaming/overview/messages-types#Events_event
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tantek.com edited /PostgreSQL (+490) "add Voxpelli, subsections" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MySQL (+444) "split indieweb examples into primary storage, secondary storage, caching" (view diff)
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tantek there we go - /storage now links to /file-storage and individual database pages, and the indieweb examples for each have been moved to the specific pages
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tantek ooh actually I still need to add more of the flat file examples to file-storage
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@kevinmarks @Pinboard put it on a server and you're almost indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/516438918078554112)
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KevinMarks_ Check out @Pinboard's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Pinboard/status/516434288867160066
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@Pinboard Just type your friend’s names into a textfile and open it in your browser. Sustainable, local, indie, DIY social networking at its finest (twitter.com/_/status/516434288867160066)
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GWG Hmm....the Pinboard developer, whose name escapes me, is a real character
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KevinMarks_ Maciej
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KevinMarks_ He is good fun
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GWG KevinMarks_: That part I remembered. I was trying to remember how to spell his last name.
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GWG KevinMarks_: I signed up for Pinboard. I like minimalism.
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GWG Of course, now I have 31,000 bookmarks and I do little with them.
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GWG Which begs an Indieweb solution.
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GWG But I'm not there yet
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KevinMarks_ We had a fun chat about social network standards a few years ago http://tummelvision.tv/2011/12/30/tummelvision-91-maciej-ceglowski-of-pinboard/
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KartikPrabhu GWG: having too many bookmarks is a human problem not a tech problem
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KevinMarks_ Ceglowski
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Curation is an issue.
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KartikPrabhu yup again a human issue
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KartikPrabhu like more technology can't solve "i follow too many people"
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KartikPrabhu it is tempting to think that technology (indieweb) can solve all of these, but i don't think it can
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I have that problem to
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GWG too
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GWG KartikPrabhu: The problem I think that can be solved isn't the one you are implying
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GWG And possibly not the one I'm implying.
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GWG The issue is they live in there and I do nothing with them.
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GWG An Indieweb solution would have me doing something with them.
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KartikPrabhu like what?
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GWG I've never gotten into Pinboard as a social service. I use it as a searchable link archive
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Sharing with others, for one?
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KartikPrabhu you can still delete them no?
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GWG What if I need one?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: if you think all your bookmarks are overwhelmingly too many, why would they be useful to others?
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KartikPrabhu a curated list would be more useful
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KartikPrabhu but you can curate in a simple text file
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KartikPrabhu or on paper actually.
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KartikPrabhu but yeah don't let my cynicism stop you
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I meant as a new workflow. Not reinvigorating the old bookmarks.
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GWG Instead of sending them to Pinboard, when they are fresh and interesting, put them into my feed.
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tantek that's what adactio does
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tantek he posts /bookmarks
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GWG Don't many people?
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GWG Isn't that really popular in some forums?
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KartikPrabhu he posts links
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KartikPrabhu bookmarks to me mean "this is interesting enough to save for future revisiting"
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tantek they are the same
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tantek since by posting he is saving
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tantek and can even search them
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KartikPrabhu does not solve the "there are too many things in my bookmarks" problem
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KartikPrabhu I can search in a text file too
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GWG I'm saying I could do both too if I wanted to.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Are you warning me I may annoy my friends and family?
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GWG And those who watch my feed?
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KartikPrabhu no. I am saying it does not solve *your* problem of having too many bookmarks
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KartikPrabhu in a feed bookmarks disappear after a while
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KartikPrabhu has been really riled up about "this new tech will solve all my problems" talk everywhere
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GWG KartikPrabhu: New tech won't solve all my problems
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GWG KartikPrabhu: New tech may change my problems
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tantek Mo tech, mo problems ;)
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KartikPrabhu <shrug> good then. don't let me stop you
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GWG KartikPrabhu: New tech is only part of a solution, not the solution by itself.
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KartikPrabhu yes that is what I am saying
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KartikPrabhu indieweb won't make me a better bookmarker
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GWG So...Problem: I hoard bookmarks without doing anything with them.
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GWG Possible Solution: Do something with them
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GWG Also: Stop Hoarding them
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KartikPrabhu don't know indieweb solves the last bit
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GWG The Also or the Possible Solution?
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KartikPrabhu aslo
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GWG KartikPrabhu: It doesn't solve the hoarding. But baby steps
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KartikPrabhu indieweb will give you the ability to hoard and share more bookmarks on your own site
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Which accomplishes the goal of engaging in a dialogue about interesting topics of the day.
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KartikPrabhu don't need a bookmark for that. a simple post will do
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@sovryntech Don't let the smartphone put an end to the #PCrevolution. The revolution hasn't ended. #StopTheCloud #GoLocal #ClientSide4Life #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/516444706012540929)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I recently redefined Bookmark on my site as the equivalent of Sharing a Link to an article, with or without comment, in other venues.
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KartikPrabhu there we go "PC will solve the own you own data" problem ^^
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KartikPrabhu GWG: if that is what you want "bookmark" to be then sure
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GWG Well, someone told me Share was too generic.
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GWG I still haven't figured out Like
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GWG Or Favorite.
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GWG And what it means to me
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KartikPrabhu I take all of these to mean the actual English meaning
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KartikPrabhu stops himself looking for an online dictionary
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GWG The wiki implies Like is 'compliments' to the original post/poster and Favorite is special to the favoring party.
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KartikPrabhu <shrug> I haven't been following the wiki definitions if they conflict with mine
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I can't figure out what my definitions are.
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KevinMarks_ I use pinboard as a PESESTAS target for bookmarks from twitter etc
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GWG I just realized this week that I'm going to define bookmark as "I find this interesting enough to note."
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GWG Which is a very weak definition.
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KartikPrabhu if it suits your use, who cares if it is "weak"
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KartikPrabhu this is not math
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GWG Well, I am thinking of adopting Favorite the way acegiak does, to indicate my interests.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I overthink everything.
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GWG Which is good and bad.
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+1352) "add a few examples from /storage, why, how" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+14) "/* See Also */ storge" (view diff)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Either way, I'm scratching itches. I may have to rescratch many times before I get it to my satisfaction
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tantek quite a few flat file storage users here. looks almost split 50/50 with db users.
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tantek time to document that split up front on database-antipattern
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GWG tantek, do you have any thoughts on differing definitions of terms like bookmark, like, and favorite?
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tantek what is a bookmark?
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Loqi A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is typically comprised of a URL and optional text accompanying it http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
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tantek what is a like?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "like" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=like
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tantek what
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tantek darn MySQL stopwords :P
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KartikPrabhu lol
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GWG Then what is http://indiewebcamp.com/like
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tantek what is a favorite
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Loqi A favorite is a common webaction on many silos (e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/favorite
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tantek hey that's not useful
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tantek bitten by e.g. again
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GWG I need to redesign this... https://david.shanske.com/kind/bookmark/
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GWG I've been staring at it for a bit now.
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tantek.com edited /favorite (-26) "fix dfn, shorten description" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: since you updated favourite, what is the diff. between bookmark and favourite apart from presentation. As in the intent?
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tantek.com edited /favorite (+85) "emojicon" (view diff)
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KevinMarks The different valence of star vs heart is tricky with favourite/like
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tantek KevinMarks: valence? what do electrons have to do with it?
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GWG KevinMarks: Where are the yellow moons and the green clovers?
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tantek anyone know how to just block all *.google.com 3rd party embeds? I'm getting tired of Google server slowness / bad latency slowing down page loads across the web. just want to block the entirety of all *.google.com embedding of any form
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KevinMarks http://m.fastcodesign.com/1670890/how-airbnb-evolved-to-focus-on-social-rather-than-searches
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tantek nice - actual data on "heart" icon having more engagement than "star"
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KartikPrabhu tantek: google servers have bad latency! what hope is there for individual servers
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KartikPrabhu or other cdns
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KevinMarks You could use a hosts file, but you'd need to enumerate the google hosted subdomains
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tantek KartikPrabhu: google's *embedding* servers
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tantek they don't care about other people pages being slow
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tantek only their own
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tantek only *some* of their own
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KevinMarks They used to.
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tantek e.g. G+ is still slow as a brick
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KevinMarks Hm
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neuro` Good mognint
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KartikPrabhu in my experiece G+ is faster then Twitter's JS loading
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KartikPrabhu good mognint neuro`
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KevinMarks There is an internal market for server resources. Maybe they have tweaked it against the public facing things
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tantek I'd love to come up with shared block list for embedded slow things
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tantek like AdBlock, but SlowBlock
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KevinMarks Or maybe they only test in chrome using spdy now
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tantek developers embed so much crap from Google. JQuery, Fonts, Analytics etc.
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KevinMarks The jquery+fonts should give cross-site caching
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KevinMarks That's the theory
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KevinMarks Analytics won't, clearly
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tantek yeah the theory. I'm so tired of it I just want to block it all.
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KartikPrabhu i use google fonts all the time, and they cache well
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GWG tantek: There is only so much you can do in a day
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neuro` tantek: use addons like ghostery to block everything that's not from the site you're visiting.
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neuro` Had some nasty surprises when the CSS is on a CDN
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tantek from KevinMarks's fastcodesign link
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tantek "This might seem like a minor detail, but as any good engineer will tell you, speed equals engagement. "
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KartikPrabhu tantek: would you suggest serving all fonts from my own server?
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TysonBrooks Anyone around tried to install withknown in a sub-folder? I'm having issues.
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@fdevillamil Blog: If you still haven’t dropped Feedburner, this may convince you to do it. #indieweb https://t37.net/if-you-haven-t-dropped-feedburner-yet-this-mind-blowing-reason-will-convince-you-to-do-it.html https://twitter.com/fdevillamil/status/516469605729304577/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/516469605729304577)
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acegiak So last night I rewrote my brainstorming engine and, thinking of the whole antipattern controversy, realised I didn't need a database for this project
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kartik_prabhu/516421657187999746/516484587728683008 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage#IndieWeb_Examples (webmention)
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colintedford.com edited /User:Colintedford.com (+90) "/* For now */ forgot to cross out item, added "redo rel=me"" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://jml.is/2014/09/webmentions-and-wordpress/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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petermolnar good morning indieweb
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KevinMarks__ morning peter
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neuro` Good morning Peter and Kevin.
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@petermolnar RT @krynsky: Forget Ello. We need to support #indieweb friendly apps that are open source, de-centralized & can be self-hosted like @withkn… (twitter.com/_/status/516516259689951232)
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ben_thatmust morning all
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alanpearce Morning Ben
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haystack.co.uk created /User:Haystack.co.uk (+86) "A stub page for Christian Wach" (view diff)
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Mark87 people using flat files, how do you deal with images for posts that include them?
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petermolnar I'd check Grav for that, it's doing really well on that part
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Mark87 what is grav?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "grav" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=grav
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petermolnar http://www.getgrav.org/
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Mark87 thanks, ill check it out
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petermolnar.eu created /grav (+298) "adding grav entry" (view diff)
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Mark87 im very nonseriously considering embedding images in the html in base64
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petermolnar I'd not use that for generic images
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petermolnar for css background, sprites, yes, not for large, photo-like pictures
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Mark87 my only thought is that since what i'm developing has longevity as one of its core goals, what could be more time-safe than embedding the images?
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Mark87 over time who knows what could happen to the images. maybe they get separated somehow over moves and copies over the years
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petermolnar that's a valid approach
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@djp1974 @Inkybat @withknown This #indieweb thread is useful: https://twitter.com/amblin/status/516210169915527168 (twitter.com/_/status/516568095976996864)
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@djp1974 @Inkybat @withknown: http://indiewebcamp.com/withknown (twitter.com/_/status/516568317943742466)
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@djp1974 @Inkybat @withknown: https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ (twitter.com/_/status/516568559808307200)
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Loqi [mention] http://btmb.me/s/2K linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme should be interesting, my first RSVP post
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like it went out fine.
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reedstrm ben_thatmustbeme: so that stanza for you in the guest list was autogenerated from your RSVP post?
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ben_thatmustbeme no, I already had that entered from logging in. I don't know how that page is supposed to handle an RSVP webmention
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cweiske I doubt that the wiki handles rsvps
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ben_thatmustbeme it says to rsvp to the page. It may be doing de-duplication as it saw i was already listed
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be pretty cool
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ben_thatmustbeme my micropub client is getting a bit cluttered now though.
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ben_thatmustbeme i may have to do some clean-up
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ben_thatmustbeme plus it should be pretty simple to wrap those files in their own separate project, so anyone can use it.
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ben_thatmustbeme hey GWG
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snarfed morning all
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gRegor` Morning, snarfed
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (-7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next HWC" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/next-hwc (+0) "Redirected page to [[events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club]]" (view diff)
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snarfed ooh, a glimpse of known's native comment form in the wild: http://tysonbrooks.net/2014/just-figured-out-a-way-to-post-new-things-to
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TysonBrooks snarfed: how'd you discover that? :)
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@hackr die indieweb-crowd lässt l. schon wieder jede mögliche lektion aus ello aus; langsam verl. ich die hoffnung (nicht ans indie, an die crowd) (twitter.com/_/status/516619823900786688)
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ben_thatmustbeme quiet day
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@gsf747 @d6 Reminded me of the IndieWeb and similar movements to decentralize. (twitter.com/_/status/516623591979245569)
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TysonBrooks First time into the chat, was hoping that it was normally active. SO makes me feel better hearing your comment about quiet day.
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ShaneHudson Yeah it is usually very active. Take a look at the logs :) https://indiewebcamp.com/IRC#Logs (Todays: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-29)
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@gRegorLove @itsscottwilder Just saw your last blog comment. Webmentions and local comments are displayed interleaved together on my blog posts. (twitter.com/_/status/516624330600370177)
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@gRegorLove @itsscottwilder The “Send a Response” form is to manually send a webmention, if someone’s site doesn’t support sending them yet. (twitter.com/_/status/516624883342520321)
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TysonBrooks I'm getting the feeling that there are also bots in here like Loqi
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Loqi woot!
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gRegor` Hey, TysonBrooks. Welcome.
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ShaneHudson TysonBrooks: Yeah Loqi is a very useful bot
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TysonBrooks Whats it written in?
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TysonBrooks Hey gRegor` Thanks for the welcome.
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gRegor` Looks like you're self-hosting Known? Sweet.
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TysonBrooks Ya, took some doing... had a few plugins not running on my company server but I got it working.
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TysonBrooks Wish I could host it in a sub folder
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TysonBrooks but apperently its not working like that yet.
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gRegor` TysonBrooks: Loqi is Perl http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2011/02/12/1/loqi-the-friendly-irc-bot
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gRegor` and PHP, I guess
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gRegor` Also, http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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petermolnar what is Loqi?
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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ShaneHudson TysonBrooks: How are you finding Known?
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TysonBrooks I actually found it through TWiT
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TysonBrooks like many have right now I'll bet.
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TysonBrooks Caught a glimps of it on leoville.net while leo was doing the radio show on Sunday.
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ShaneHudson Ah nice! I meant to say what do you think of it? Are you enjoying it?
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TysonBrooks I've just done one post with it so far. I'd like to host a number of them. I've even thought about making an installer so when someone purchases hosting through me that they could get it auto installed onto their own accounts.
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TysonBrooks I run a website hosting company.
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TysonBrooks But for starters I'd like to host at least two instances one for my business site to use it for the socail media stream, a hub of communications from the two popular networks (Facebook & Twitter). Then another one for my personal uses. The personal one is the one launched right now.
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ShaneHudson That sounds like a very good idea
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TysonBrooks I seen Ben commenting to Bluehost to see if they'd work with him on doing an easy installer. Which is what got me thinking about it. If I can make it work I might contact him and show him what I've worked out.
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ShaneHudson Definitely. He often drops by on here (although less since working on Known) so I'm sure he would be willing to talk about it.
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tantek.com edited /favorite (+106) "emojicon" (view diff)
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TysonBrooks Ya, I noticed him and erin dont use known that much, at least in the way I thought they'd be using it.
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TysonBrooks I like the idea of using it as a communication hub and answer customers and clients about real time problems right from known.
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danlyke ben is also super responsive to Known issues on Twitter.
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TysonBrooks no matter if they are on twitter or facebook.
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ShaneHudson Ben uses Known at http://werd.io/ he hasn't posted in a while but he has been using it actively long before Known even became a thing :)
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ShaneHudson But yes, using it for answering problems sounds like a nice idea
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tantek.com edited /like (+543) "Icon considerations, Star vs Heart, with data/citation on heart encouraging more interaction" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme hey TysonBrooks, Welcome
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tantek ShaneHudson: benwerd posts and werd.io all the time, just pick "All content" from the "Filter content" menu at the top. E.g. a note 6 minutes ago!
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ben_thatmustbeme Yeah, definitely a lot more active at times
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ShaneHudson Ah of course (stupid me)!
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davidmead has anyone used freedom.io to port Instagram content to a WP self-hosted blog?
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tantek what is gitpub?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gitpub" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gitpub
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tantek what is jekyll?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Jekyll
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erlehmann hey
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erlehmann does anyone here have examples of minimal flat file blog systems?
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erlehmann i am using git to track metadata
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tantek.com edited /Jekyll (+59) "dfn, see also" (view diff)
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danlyke Mine is quickly growing beyond that, and I haven't really cleaned it up for publication, but if you're into C++ the system currently running Flutterby.net is at https://github.com/danlyke/FlutterbyNetCPP (and personal repos if you prefer to not participate in the Github silo)
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erlehmann http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage
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erlehmann danlyke mine is just shell scripts. http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+12) "/* Bret C. */ linky linky" (view diff)
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erlehmann i thought about just generating a feed from my flat files, since i already have an appropriate xslt stylesheet
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erlehmann http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/hn2.xsl creates a web page from an atom feed
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erlehmann so why not use that for all content, i thought
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erlehmann is there some drawback?
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gregorlove.com created /GitPub (+134) "stub for Bret to expand. :)" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /gitpub (+20) "r" (view diff)
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reedstrm what is reedstrm
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Loqi Ross Reedstrom (reedstrm most places) is a sysadmin and developer in the area of Open Education Resources http://indiewebcamp.com/reedstrm
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gRegor` bret: Can you expand this? http://indiewebcamp.com/GitPub
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reedstrm what is jekyll
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Loqi Jekyll is Ruby software that helps you create "Simple, blog-aware, static sites" suitable for static domain hosting http://indiewebcamp.com/Jekyll
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gRegor` what is gitpub
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Loqi GitPub is a micropub endpoint to go from micropub client to git repository http://indiewebcamp.com/GitPub
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reedstrm hehe -someone beat me to the <dfn> tag :-)
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erlehmann intredasting
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+19) "/* Rascul */ uses crash" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /GitPub (+36) (view diff)
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tantek what is crash?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "crash" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=crash
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erlehmann how do you people store Atom ids in flat file backends?
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erlehmann what is goatse
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "goatse" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=goatse
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erlehmann :----DDDDD
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erlehmann i see
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sparverius what is love
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Loqi "baby don't hurt me . . . " ♫ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrBDcQq2DM http://indiewebcamp.com/love
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erlehmann lel
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erlehmann what is feed reader
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Loqi A feed reader is an application (local or on the web, e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader
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erlehmann fine
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tantek erlehmann: re: so why not use that for all content, is there some drawback? [to Atom] - answer: yes, it's easier to write posts in HTML than Atom. Plus then you're done with having something browser viewable/editable.
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tantek.com edited /feed_reader (-5) "-e.g. in dfn" (view diff)
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tantek what is a feed reader?
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Loqi A feed reader is an application (local or on the web, like the defunkt Google Reader) that subscribes to feeds (typically legacy Atom & RSS) and presents them in an interface for reading http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader
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erlehmann tantek i currently write posts in html, plain text / whatever and generate an atom file from the information in the git repo.
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tantek re: how do you people store Atom ids in flat file backends? Not sure anyone needs Atom ids. We do store permalinks.
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tantek erlehmann: that makes much more sense
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erlehmann i need atom ids because the urls can change
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erlehmann so the question is just “is there a drawback to just publishing the atom file and having a stylesheet for it?”
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tantek I think that's an iilusion of utility.
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tantek It assumes anyone cares / does anything with Atom IDs
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erlehmann yeah, feed readers do. i already had several occasions where it was useful to have a not-changing id.
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tantek erlehmann: "drawback to just publishing the atom file" - yes, all the drawbacks to serving XML
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erlehmann like, whenever i redirect stuff
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erlehmann if the id does not change, everything is fine
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tantek redirects don't count as broken URLs
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tantek if you're redirecting, you're fine
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tantek clients are supposed to handle that
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erlehmann if the id *does* change, that means that the reader has two articles or the article becomes unread
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erlehmann in the feed
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erlehmann also, reposting content
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tantek I think most folks just use their permalink as their atom ID
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tantek in practice, /reposts have their own permalinks, deliberately
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tantek the atom view of the world is kind of dying, ignored by social networks etc.
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erlehmann yeah, but if you use the permalink then redirects mean everything becomes unread or duplicated
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tantek that's a reader bug if it's treating redirects that way
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erlehmann no not redirects
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erlehmann i redirect the url. but if the id of the entry changes, that means the reader cannot know it is the same entry.
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tantek then hold onto the original permalink
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tantek no need for any notion of abstract ID
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erlehmann yeah then the question becomes again where to store it
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erlehmann currently i have it in a git annotation
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erlehmann which is not very simple
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tantek I've seen "originally published at: … " in posts
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tantek that's one way
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erlehmann maybe for each file, having a file.id is not something bad (in addition to having a file.atom)
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tantek !tell Mark87 do you have a name for your Editor & Viewer software?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek ! tell rascul could you start a stub article for your project "crash"? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=crash&action=edit&redlink=1
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tantek !tell rascul could you start a stub article for your project "crash"? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=crash&action=edit&redlink=1
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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erlehmann tantek do you know of blog software with MIME storage backends? after all, everyone holds on to their emails and can edit them from every device
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bret Ya gRegor` I can :)
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tantek I don't know anyone that holds onto all their emails on every device, and can edit them on every device (especially mobile)
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erlehmann i use offlineimap and notmuch!
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tantek also if you know of any good approach to viewing, browsing, searching local mbox files, please say so - I asked earlier here.
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, plus editing e-mails isn't really possible for most clients
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finchd tantek: mailpile.is looks promising
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+37) "/* Barnaby Walters */ uses Taproot" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Answer_to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life,_The_Universe,_and_Everything (+19) "ben made me do it" (view diff)
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erlehmann tantek i use maildir and notmuch. it has google-mail-like tagging, thread view and stuff. mbox is icky, isn't it?
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tantek mbox is icky but I don't know of a better single file mail archive format :/
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erlehmann why does it have to be single file?
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tantek what is Nucleus?
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Loqi Nucleus is an open source CMS that runs on PHP and MySQL http://indiewebcamp.com/Nucleus
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tantek.com created /Nucleus_CMS (+21) "r" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Answer_to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life,_The_Universe,_and_Everything (+78) "take 2" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm thinking I will investigate just having posts rendered out to a storage folder on updates. Not sure I want to go fully flat file for storage, but rendering the data thats nice to keep around is probably a good idea
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gregorlove.com edited /Answer_to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life,_The_Universe,_and_Everything (+6) (view diff)
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tantek what is Nucleus?
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Loqi Nucleus is an open source CMS that runs on PHP and MySQL http://indiewebcamp.com/Nucleus
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erlehmann ben_thatmust what is a reason against fully flat file?
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gregorlove.com created /the_answer_to_the_ultimate_question_of_life_the_universe_and_everything (+83) "r" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme well searching and sorting for one. unless i start storing index files as well, but i feel like that might be going too far
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tantek !tell luxagraf what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell shaners what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ben_thatmustbeme then i start having to manage my own indexes and such, which gets rather messy. Plus indexes aren't something i care about storing for the future. its only content. So just redering out bodies of posts, etc, is really all I care about
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tantek !tell danlyke what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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erlehmann ben_thatmust indexes?
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess i somewhat already do this, as my queries are cached out to disk
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ben_thatmustbeme erlehmann, yes, if I want to grab only articles, if I don't want to loop through all files on disk, i need some list of entries by type
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erlehmann ah
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ben_thatmustbeme if i organized on disk by type, then i'd have the same issue grabbing something by date, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme right now I store everything in the DB, but since queries are much slower than disk access, I have timestamped caches of search results in files on disk. As long as I make sure that everything that could possibly effect those cached queries is set to update the cache, I could drop the requirement that queries have a finite cache time. and just keep then indefinitely.
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+714) "start documenting community split up front" (view diff)
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erlehmann ben_thatmust i use git. it is reasonably fast
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tantek for everyone's review: https://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#community_split
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Were you looking for me?
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tantek !tell tommorris does /Ferocity use flat files for storage or a database? If a database, which one?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /database-antipattern (+14) "cast another tot he side of database" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, no, you had just joined, i was saying hello
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ben_thatmustbeme s/tot/vote
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GWG My bouncer must have lost the connection
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tantek.com edited /OpenBlog (+8) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: could you add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/MySQL#IndieWeb_Examples also?
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GWG Hello tantek
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme, how is your site coming? I think I saw micropub
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gregorlove.com edited /database-antipattern (+17) "/* community split */ +ProcessWire" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /MySQL (+194) "add openblog" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, its good, ben.thatmustbe.me/new for the current MP client
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ben_thatmustbeme I need to clean up a lot of it. Just started to add ability to add location and such
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ben_thatmustbeme i feel like as IWCCambridge gets closer I am doing more and more on openblog
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GWG I am trying to do both of those things. But it is a ways off.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme, will I see you on the feed?
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erlehmann http://ben.thatmustbe.me/new
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG: huh? no, it will post as whoever you log in as, and looks up your MP endpoint
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GWG On the IWC talky video feed
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, i have no idea
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, trying to do both what things? Micropub and adding location info?
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Yes
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ben_thatmustbeme right now i'm trying to get the MP client developed enough where I can completely throw away the admin interface. I basically have abandoned it already
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gregorlove.com edited /MySQL (+363) "/* Gregor Morrill */ regarding database-antipattern" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme there may be a few things that will not be done with MP, like editing rel=me links and such, those may need a minor interface, and I'm hesitant to have those accessed by indieauth
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kylewm.com edited /database-antipattern (+31) "/* community split */ add Publify and Homesteading to database side" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme since you could in theory lock yourself out by editing mistakes there
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme I want to abandon it for notes. For articles the post editor in WordPress is great.
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GWG it being the admin UI
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kylewm tantek: thank you for documenting the dissent on /database-antipattern. I think you handled it nicely
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tantek gRegor`: thanks for adding the longevity info - since 2002
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gRegor` np. Going to update the community split to link to mysql and postgresql
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gRegor` (subsections)
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tantek kylewm: no problem. we should document the current state of the community, whatever that is, in addition to past experiences and future aspirations.
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tantek gRegor`: would be better to have those individual projects have the opinions stated, rather than on the MySQL and PostgreSQL pages
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gRegor` You mean like on /Nucleus instead of /MySQL?
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tantek right
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tantek which is why I asked shaners and luxagraf to document their software
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, wonder if I can just write a driver to give openblog users the option to use file storage
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ben_thatmustbeme it has drivers to swap between various DB backends already
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ben_thatmustbeme nothing says I can't do that without them, just need to be able to parse SQL
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tantek gRegor`: my goal was to flatten the lists - just projects, not by DB or whatever
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tantek or by github pages vs. heroku
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gRegor` Makes sense.
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gRegor` Think "Regarding database-antipattern" should be a subheading on the individual project page then?
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tommorris tantek: db - Postgres
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Loqi tommorris: tantek left you a message 19 minutes ago: does /Ferocity use flat files for storage or a database? If a database, which one?
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tantek gRegor`: not sure it is that important to each project
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tantek to be deserving of a subhead
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kylewm gRegor`: mine is essentially that https://indiewebcamp.com/Red_Wind#Datastore
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tantek perhaps include it as part of a project design or internals section
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tantek and I document flat file usage as part of https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Storage_format
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gRegor` Ah
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tantek so yes, document how your project does its Datastore / Storage format (take your pick) and add any additional opinions there that informed your design
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gRegor` Hm. I kind of like being able to skim down /PostgreSQL and read the opinions on database-antipattern though
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gRegor` Guess they can remain there and on the project pages, of course.
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tantek sure - we can leave that up to the individual project maintainers
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tantek though in the example of /PostgreSQL - the opinions are offered detached from a particular project
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tantek which I don't expect to see a lot of
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tantek seems odd to have an opinion about data storage, backed by your implementation, but then not name your implementation
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@almereyda RT @kirilind: someone should tell all those people jumping to #ello that @withknown is what they're actually looking for :-) #ownyourdata #… (twitter.com/_/status/516653362625134592)
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tantek gRegor`: are you using Nucleus or ProcessWire currently?
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KartikPrabhu not sue Bundle is on the database side :)
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KartikPrabhu s/sue/sure
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: not sure Bundle is on the database side :)
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tantek but it does use databases for storage right?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: for some. articles are stored as HTML
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KartikPrabhu tantek: shaners' site runs Homesteading
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tantek KartikPrabhu: so Bundle is a mix! interesting
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KartikPrabhu yes :) because I author articles in HTML in my text editor
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tantek KartikPrabhu: shaners explicitly says on the PostgreSQL that his site and homesteading are different
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm
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tantek "Homesteading" is still aspirational
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.lmorchard.com/2014/09/29/1288 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes saw details now
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tantek KartikPrabhu: https://indiewebcamp.com/PostgreSQL#Future_Projects
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KartikPrabhu yeah read that
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bear.im created /42 (+83) "Redirected page to [[Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything]]" (view diff)
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gRegor` tantek: Nucleus. I'll update the wiki once I move to ProcessWire. It will be a while, still.
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tantek.com edited /ProcessWire (+230) "note current vs considering, details uses MySQL (guessing), see also" (view diff)
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gRegor` I'm working on the webmention plugin for ProcessWire. Once that's stable, I'll start migrating.
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tantek neat! maybe add that to http://indiewebcamp.com/ProcessWire#Gregor_Morrill in case others might be considering it
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gregorlove.com edited /Answer_to_the_Ultimate_Question_of_Life,_The_Universe,_and_Everything (-2) "ellipsis to test with Loqi" (view diff)
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mowens.com edited /MongoDB (+34) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /ProcessWire (+91) "/* Gregor Morrill */" (view diff)
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mowens.com edited /database-antipattern (+14) "/* community split */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://mabulledu.net/presque-compatible-indieweb/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress-fr (webmention)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (-2) "/* My site */" (view diff)
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mko So... on the database-antipattern, most of those arguments don't apply to MongoDB since MongoDB is actually storing everything as .bson files on the file system. It is technically a "flat file representation" of the files. My entire MongoDB dump looks like nothing but JSON representations of h-entry almost identical to that which pin13.net spits out (but currently without all the arrays for things that I know are only going to ever be a
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mko single value).
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /OpenBlog (+2210) "giving some much needed /openblog updates" (view diff)
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@nicolascluz Mon site est presque compatible #IndieWeb. Mon premier vrai test http://mabulledu.net/zz7Xq7h (twitter.com/_/status/516659646992367616)
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mko tantek: I almost feel like the database-antipattern discussion has three different classifications, not two. file-storage, database, and hybrid.
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /OpenBlog (+0) "/* Planned Features */ minor error" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu mko: what's hybrid?
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gRegor` Don't forget quantum-storage
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KartikPrabhu mko: in mongodb can you open the files in a text editor and read them?
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KevinMarks_ https://medium.com/medium-eng/it-takes-a-village-to-read-an-rss-feed-84e63a3c9094
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tantek.com edited /MongoDB (+27) "subhead" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+94) "just updating my todo list" (view diff)
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gRegor` I think Facebook changed something regarding the image preview when you put a URL in your status. Instead of my logo, it just picked up the avatar of one of the comments first.
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tantek.com created /Template:mko (+139) "since I used it" (view diff)
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mko KartikPrabhu: If you've got it configured properly.
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gRegor` I'm using their silly og:image meta property
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KartikPrabhu well then that is a db-tax no? :P
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gRegor` Yes, I'll document this on the wiki.
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegor` i had that happen at one point too, but realized I was missing the og:image meta tag
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tantek you shouldn't have to use og:image to make it work
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tantek just need an image big enough
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tantek and it will auto-detect it for a /link-preview
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Loqi definitely
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gRegor` In the past it has picked up my header image first, sometimes. Most of the time it's picked up my og:image
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gRegor` No idea why it picked up someone's avatar from my comments section this time, though.
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ben_thatmustbeme I don't actually show my photo in the page through, so I needed the og:image bit
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gRegor` runs more tests
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gRegor` I don't either, ben. It's the same image as my apple-touch-image
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+50) "/* Does this mean I can’t have a dynamic site? */ shorten" (view diff)
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gRegor` tantek: What is "big enough"? Is this documented somewhere?
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ben_thatmustbeme ah yeah, i need to create those, I always forget what the filename apple looks for is
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme: I use rel=apple-touch-icon
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KevinMarks__ it's documented on facebook's page, yes
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danlyke KevinMarks, interesting article, especially since I just got to the "WordPress Plugins" section, and how they block WordPress clients because of botnets using Pingbacks for "sustained attacks", and thought about WebMention.
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: looks like we don't have a page for "big enough" ;)
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Loqi danlyke: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 8 minutes ago: what is the name of the software you use to run your site?
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gRegor` Lulz, KartikPrabhu
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KevinMarks__ right dan, interesting on that front too -
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gRegor` KevinMarks: nooo, don't make me look at FB documentation. ;)
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mko KartikPrabhu: No argument there. It counts as db-tax, but I would argue that the file-storage pattern has just as many (if not more) "taxes" for long-term usability. Assuming you improve the display or methods of access of your content over time, it's very possible you would need to go back and reformat all of your files to support these new displays or methods of access.
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gRegor` What is DBA tax?
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Loqi The database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content (like on an indieweb site), and is an anti-pattern due to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence, and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files http://indiewebcamp.com/DBA_tax
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+116) "/* Are databases required for a dynamic site */ shorten more, note Falcon as real world example" (view diff)
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danlyke tantek, don't have any good name, internally it's "fby", in the svn repo it's FlutterbyNetCPP, if I'm going to distribute it I really need to package it differently from "git commit -a; git push github master".
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KartikPrabhu mko: unlikely if they are stored as HTML anyway
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KartikPrabhu anyway...
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danlyke tantek also going to split the git repo into a general purpose library and the blog/wiki portion shortly.
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ben_thatmustbeme So those that sore in files, how do you store comments? as a separate file for each, one comments file per post, or at the end of the file they are commenting on?
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KevinMarks__ https://developers.facebook.com/tools/debug/ shows you what they parse
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tantek but not what their heuristics actually display
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tantek so it's borderline useless as a validator
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KevinMarks__ https://developers.facebook.com/docs/sharing/best-practices
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tantek same with Google's rich snippets validators, have to wait to be blessed, and even then you have no idea what markup they'll actually bother to do anything with.
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KevinMarks__ it does tell you what they found
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tantek like you have no idea if your Volcano will show up with a fax machine in its rich snippet
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KevinMarks__ it shows a preview at the bottom
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KevinMarks__ https://developers.facebook.com/tools/debug/og/object?q=kevinmarks.com
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KevinMarks__ with a link to the share dialog
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KevinMarks__ so it is better than google's
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+30) "sort projects, keep only those live on actual indie web community member sites, note multiple and put those first in lists" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ doesn't need approval like twitter either
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TysonBrooks KevinMarks, if you're the one who told leo about withknown, thank you!
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KevinMarks__ I did, but benwerd and erinjo came on the show too
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+170) "Other Independent Examples, David Baron" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ he's blogging his uk trip on known http://leoville.net/
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TysonBrooks I seen it. Because of that show I loaded the software on my own personal site.
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KevinMarks__ yay!
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Loqi :D
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TysonBrooks As soon as its compatible with subdirectories I'll be using it for my business as well.
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+0) "bumping plain HTML files (multiple) to top of list as at least 2+ independents currently doing that, and some have in the past." (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+18) "/* community split */ the name for "plain HTML files" is typically Apache" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (-3) "/* community split */ g" (view diff)
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mko Honestly, I think /database-antipattern is one of the most caustic disagreements in the IndieWeb. If I get some time, I'll try to further articulate why I feel that way, but the short answer is that it's an argument about plumbing that tries to shame people who disagree.
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tantek mko - let's fix the shame parts
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tantek other than, why do you think it is caustic?
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@kevinmarks @nicksantos have you looked at including h-feed markup in medium itself? An example: http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=https://medium.com/feed/@nicksantos #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/516664887767232513)
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tantek mko - fundamentally it's not an argument about plumbing, it's an argument about longevity and accessibility.
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mko My MongoDB bson files will be around just as long and are just as easily accessible as any flat-file HTML file.
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tantek "will be" does not match up to "have been"
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KevinMarks__ TysonBrooks: can you use a subdomain instead? I use known.kevinmarks.com
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tantek and "bson files" have the same problems of Uninspectability, Platform trap
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tantek browser do not view bson files. thus they are not "just as easily accessible as any flat-file HTML file."
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TysonBrooks KevinMarks__: I would, but I would like to use my ssl cert in order to publish to foursquare
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tantek and by accessible I also mean to independents - who don't have the time deal with extra database chores, e.g. backup etc.
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tantek I should say, *separate* backup
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TysonBrooks I think it was blocking me since I didn't have a https link.
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Loqi I agree
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KevinMarks__ would unmunging ello so you can follow it with an indieweb reader be useful?
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tantek mko, feel free to document how you see bson files working well for you on http://indiewebcamp.com/MongoDB
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tantek at least we can start with capturing the positive
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KevinMarks__ also wonders if making unmung support 304 polling is worth it
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tantek KevinMarks: do you have any friends who post primarily on Ello that you want to follow?
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tantek reframes KevinMarks question from "would … it … be useful?" to "would … it … be useful to *you?" ;)
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KevinMarks__ clay shirky is posting interesting things there
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tantek ah Clay, too bad about his WordPress install: http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Maintenance_Vulnerability
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davidmead does anyone know if freedom.io still works for extrating your instagram content?
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tantek.com edited /Jekyll (+291) "/* Indieweb Users */ subheads" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /file-storage (+40) "/* ... add yourself ... */ many more [[Jekyll]] users" (view diff)
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cr fs-database are maybe less fragile and more tool-connected than noSQL/SQL stores but have their own baggage and historical cruft
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cr luckily, people are finalyl bypassing the FS legacy with mirageOS block-device backed kv-stores etc
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+23) "more documented Jekyll flat file users than any other file storage approach" (view diff)
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tantek welcome cr! what's your personal site?
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cr not much of one, https://github.com/hallwaykid/pw is the webserver i'm using
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tantek do you have a personal domain?
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cr http://whats-your.name/
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cr trying to get some TOS-violatoin emails from the .name ppl, what should i put there
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cr maybe some keybase.io knockoff
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cr just as an example, POSIX only has local usernames, if you want to allow the web at-large to have UNIX-style permissions to read/write on your website, you have to build your own access-control layer
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tantek where do you post content like blog posts on your personal domain?
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cr my server has a special handler on /news, which so far is just aggregated/reblogged content
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@kevinmarks @nicksantos would also love to apply your wordpress pingback experience to webmention design- join us in http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC sometime (twitter.com/_/status/516669864694394880)
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cr eg, i'm interested in what's going on in Boston, so ive got some files in http://src.whats-your.name/pw/conf/news/?set=dir which a cron-tab runs and i browse on http://b.whats-your.name/news/
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cr so basically hte "planet" concept
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cr still have to investigate this mention stuff..
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tantek interesting use of subdomains for that stuff which is all from the same individual - I don't think we have anyone else here doing that - typically people use paths for that
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cr in theory, it all comes back out as a feed, http://b.whats-your.name/feed
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cr i dont really use feed-readers . any good ones to try lately?
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tantek but not viewable on your homepage - planet style as you say
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KevinMarks__ has subdomains
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tantek for different software right?
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tantek KevinMarks: is that your preference? or just the way it has to work now?
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kylewm davidmead: freedom.io should still work; if it doesn’t, snarfed would probably like to know
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (-16) "/* community split */ -" (view diff)
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tantek welcome back snarfed! for your review: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#community_split
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davidmead kylewm - thanks. i did ping him on twitter. I believe i entered all the correct info but it doesn’t seem to be doing anything
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snarfed thanks tantek! will do
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KevinMarks__ it is easier and good practice with different software; I'm not religious about it either way
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tantek KevinMarks: interesting. as I'd think from wanting to keep permalinks working, that fewer URL patterns (where stuff is posted) would be less work to maintain longer term.
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KevinMarks__ tantek: does using git to store your site count as file storage or a db?
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tantek flat files from your perspective
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tantek the whole thing is inspectable in the file system
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snarfed tantek: lgtm, well written. that page has improved a lot due to all the attention. that's great!
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tantek by double-clicking on things
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tantek thanks snarfed - specifically seeking out contrary opinions to see if the community split is documented reasonably.
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snarfed definitely sounds reasonable to me
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tantek also with decision to put it right there at the top - for any future twitter storms
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tantek or retweets of past
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snarfed the biggest new part i learned was the distinction between personal indie websites and larger apps/systems. i originally interpreted it as an argument as an antipattern for both, but it's clearer now that it's primarily an antipattern for the former, which i agree much more with
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KevinMarks__ antipattern of the day: https://twitter.com/Swati_THN/status/515051736017297408
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@Swati_THN "The Problem With End-Users" :D :D @TechInfected https://twitter.com/Swati_THN/status/515051736017297408/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/515051736017297408)
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tantek snarfed - interesting. yes the intended scoping was always personal indie websites.
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tantek that one has to maintain oneself
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notenoughneon.com edited /file-storage (+225) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add notenoughneon to list" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: https://twitter.com/HaxingLocalhost/status/516671000294211584
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@HaxingLocalhost @Swati_THN @Viss @TechInfected My only regret would be that I couldn't do it twice to see if it happens every time (twitter.com/_/status/516671000294211584)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+14) "/* community split */ file storage Neonblog" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ the message is also that having a recoverable html version of your site is good for larger sites too
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jonnybarnes is kylewm around?
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kylewm jonnybarnes: I am, what’s up?
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jonnybarnes looking at https://kylewm.com/contacts which is excellent I might add
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jonnybarnes was wondering how you actually store contact info on your server?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/516669864694394880/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (webmention)
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jonnybarnes the /nicknames-cache page on the wiki has this link: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-13#t1405285303
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kylewm jonnybarnes: thanks! as of this weekend, they’re stored in the SQLite database along with everything else. there is a Contact table and a Nick table
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jonnybarnes which just points to the first line of the logs for me
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tantek I want the logs to support fragmentions so I can reference topics in them like this: https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28##vouch
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Loqi gives tantek the logs to support fragmentions so I can reference topics in them like this
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tantek there's something to be said for having a topic explicit in a URL
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tantek gives Loqi an eye-roll.
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Loqi grabs the eye-roll.
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Loqi [mention] http://mabulledu.net linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress-fr (webmention)
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kylewm.com edited /nicknames-cache (+3) "/* Discussion */ update link to IRC logs to include sub-second timing" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes kylewm: is your @name you give contacts ever different from their twitter handle?
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kylewm jonnybarnes: yep, me, snarfed, bret
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jonnybarnes kylewm: and presumably when your typing a note you type the local @name you've given a contact?
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kylewm jonnybarnes: yep exactly. it used to be [[Full Name|Display Name]] but that was too much typing
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kylewm particular for names with cedillas or umlauts
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jonnybarnes I see that in your notes that's then converted into a nice h-card :)
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kylewm yep that’s the idea, then POSSEd to twitter with the twitter-specific handle
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jonnybarnes is your note stored as having the @name, and the h-card generated each page load, or is ot converted before its saved?
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jonnybarnes if that question makes sense :P
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kylewm I’m storing the raw note and converted-html both
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kylewm the html gets re-generated on each edit
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kylewm (though that is kind of a drag because it means i can’t change contact information and have it retroactively update older posts)
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kylewm eventually I’ll write code to invalidate or regenerate those old posts
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KevinMarks__ interesting - noterlive uses twitter handles the same way, as a shortcut to making an hcard
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gregorlove.com created /Tantek-ing (+611) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /tanteking (+24) "r" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, "tanteking"
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Loqi nice
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jonnybarnes love it: http://indiewebcamp.com/Tantek-ing
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gRegor` What is tanteking?
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Loqi Tantek-ing refers to a method of encouraging people to make edits to this wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/tanteking
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu++ for coining it, AFAIK
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ben_thatmustbeme i thought it was going to be saying "What's the Use Case?" to stop people in their tracks and force them to think things through again.
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 66 karma
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gRegor` Hehe, yep. Certainly multiple things could fall under tantek-ing
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jonnybarnes is there a way of forcing the wiki to https? I would have thought there would be an option in Special:Preferences but I cant find one
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gRegor` I'm not aware of one. The MediaWiki install is rather old. Newer versions probably have it.
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ben_thatmustbeme at one point i had started to try to migrate the mediawiki template over to support newer mediawiki version. but didn't get too far
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gRegor` ben_thatmustbeme: I forget, was it you that started working on a MediaWiki-- jinx
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/dissolve/wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme didn't get too far though
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rascul has arrived
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Loqi rascul: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 45 minutes ago: could you start a stub article for your project "crash"? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=crash&action=edit&redlink=1
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if he should find a spot in the wiki to describe fully his context-tread implementation or do it as an article on his site
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davidmead does anyone know if self-hosted WP can handle micropub’s?
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gRegor` davidmead: It's certainly possible, though I don't know if anyone has made a micropub plugin for WP yet. I think GWG and acegiak have talked about it.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/27301982/294885624030610/27301982 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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davidmead gRegor`: thanks. struggling through getting ownyourgram to work for me. that was the last hurdle
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/27301982/294885624030610/506306793 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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davidmead gRegor`: looks like the enpoint is the bit i keep stumbling on
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kylewm davidmead: no micropub support for wordpress yet
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tantek ownyourgram to WP would be cool. is anyone doing that yet?
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tantek what is context-tread?
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be pretty excellent
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "context-tread" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=context-tread
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davidmead kylewm: thanks.
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kylewm I got the impression that wordpress folks felt like micropub would be running over a lot of the smae ground as the XMLRPC API
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kylewm soon to be JSON RPC
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ben_thatmustbeme reply-tread that is
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davidmead tantek: not that i’ve found. i’m struggling to get it to work
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tantek reply-thread?
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rascul.io created /crash (+266) "create the page" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (+10) "/* URLs */ Chicago FB" (view diff)
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tantek micropub is a modern replacement for XMLRPC API
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rascul there you go tantek
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tantek yes, micropub is intended to run over the same ground as XMLRPC - that's not an argument against micropub
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-10-08-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* RSVP */ chi" (view diff)
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@lmorchard .@ndh313 POSSE is hard. (Or, I've been doing it wrong) http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/516684608357027840)
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rascul i was waiting for it to be more complete before starting the page so i could put more in it, i'll just add stuff as i go
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+7) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ comment out London. Don't think there's been one for a while?" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i was going to redirect context-thread to reply-thread, but is there a difference there / should there be
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ben_thatmustbeme reply-thread sounds like thread of reply's to a post, not the thread backward of reply-contexts
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+11) "/* community split */ crash - uses flat MD files" (view diff)
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tantek lmorchard - what challenges are you having with POSSE?
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lmorchard ta
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lmorchard OOps
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lmorchard tantek: Basically, being lazy and looking for a plugin that produces non-terrible tweets from WordPress “status” type posts
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kylewm Bumble is flat-files too
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tantek I have a feeling the WP folks here have an easy plugin answer to that lmorchard - cc: GWG snarfed
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tantek what is Bumble?
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Loqi Bumble is a really simple markdown-based blog platform on node.js built by Adam Brault http://indiewebcamp.com/Bumble
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lmorchard Specifically, I just want the first 140-ish chars of this + a link http://blog.lmorchard.com/2014/09/29/how-about-this-does-this-make-a-terrible
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (-1) "mv 9/24 HWC to past" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/lmorchard/516684608357027840/516685143038124032 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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lmorchard (I’m sure this is a solved problem for someone)
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ben.thatmustbe.me created /context-tread (+26) "my naming for reply-thread" (view diff)
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gRegor` s/tread/thread/ ^
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tantek.com edited /Bumble (+160) "any indie examples? see also" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme what is context-thread
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "context-thread" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=context-thread
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gRegor` typoed, ben :)
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tantek kylewm: do you know anyone here who is running their site on Bumble?
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ben_thatmustbeme GAH
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ben.thatmustbe.me moved /context-tread to /context-thread "typo"
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gRegor` context-tread is the tracks your blog leaves...
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ben_thatmustbeme what is context-thread
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Loqi A reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, sometimes as part of a reply-context http://indiewebcamp.com/context-thread
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kylewm tantek: garvin has been in the IRC a couple of times and Adam Brault came to IWC SF…
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tantek oh neat
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tantek what's his site?
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kylewm sorry, wraithgar*
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kylewm http://danger.computer
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tantek.com edited /Bumble (+55) "Adam Brault" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm, cool. I added Adam, can you add wraithgar to http://indiewebcamp.com/Bumble#IndieWeb_Examples then?
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+12) "Bumble" (view diff)
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davidmead gRegor` tantek kylewm: any suggestions for self-hosted systems that handle micropub as WP doesn’t?
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gRegor` davidmead: I don't have any experience with /micropub myself
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tantek davidmead check out IndieWeb Examples on /micropub
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gRegor` I think most have been custom solutions indieweb participants have been working on: http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub
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davidmead gRegor` tantek:thanks. i’ll start sorting through them :-)
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gRegor` davidmead: Looks like there's some PHP libraries linked on there, if you're feeling adventurous in hacking it into WordPress :)
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gRegor` kylewm's reply-context makes me think I should put placeholder images for videos in posts: https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/09/29/4/so-good-thanks-for-sharing
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gRegor` kylewm: Does your reply-context show embedded images?
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Micropub (+51) "user page link error" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Bumble (+96) "/* Adam Brault */ add wraithgar" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Micropub (+51) "converting my user page links to user: template" (view diff)
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kylewm gRegor`: yes it does show images. does your site generate the embed automatically or are you copy pasting from youtube?
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gRegor` pasting the iframe for now. I could put in an image that my CSS hides, though, and link it to the video.
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gRegor` Nice updates to your layout, btw
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kylewm thanks :)
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@mikedunn Love the idea of these IndieWeb Wordpress bookmarklets, though I feel I need @jukesie to explain if they'd work https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress (twitter.com/_/status/516691486813855745)
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gregorlove.com edited /subtome (+23) "dfn, cleanup, indieweb examples section" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com moved /subtome to /SubToMe "capitalization"
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gRegor` kylewm and anyone else using SubToMe, please add yourself to /SubToMe#Indieweb_Examples
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rascul.io edited /Facebook (+76) "add link to facebook message scraper" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/lmorchard/516684608357027840/516692869722435584 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/lmorchard/516684608357027840/516692265058979841 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/lmorchard/516684608357027840/516693089746833408 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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lmorchard Hmm. That’s odd.
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lmorchard None of those tweets mention webmention, though they are ultimately in reply to the tweet where I first mentioned it
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gRegor` lmorchard: Bridgy sends webmentions to tweets in the reply chain.
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gRegor` So those are webmentions of this tweet: https://twitter.com/lmorchard/status/516684608357027840
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@lmorchard .@ndh313 POSSE is hard. (Or, I've been doing it wrong) http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/516684608357027840)
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lmorchard Yeah, seems like this channel’s in for a bit of noise if people keep replying :)
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gRegor` No worries. We've had much worse.
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gRegor` remembers the great /database-antipattern flood of '14
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gregorlove.com edited /Facebook (+36) "/* Criticism */ === Image used in link preview ===" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Facebook (+376) "/* Image used in link preview */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Facebook (+517) "/* Image used in link preview */ update: og:image has to be 200x200px. Stupid." (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Facebook (+26) "/* Image used in link preview */ blockquote" (view diff)
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danlyke` digging through microformats docs and finding no love: Putting aside my loathing for WebMention right now, if I wanted to RSVP to the October 22nd Homebrew Website Club via either my RSS feed or my status update microformats feed, how would I do that?
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tantek danlyke - http://indiewebcamp.com/RSVP#Publish_an_RSVP
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tantek which microformats docs did you find no love?
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danlyke` excellent! Thanks, tantek!
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tantek danlyke - also an indie RSVP requires an indie Event to reply to
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tantek and AFAIK there's no indie event posted yet for http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club
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tantek at least for SF: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club#URLs
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danlyke` yeah, tantek, I don't have the rest of the code written yet either [grin]...
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@fdevillamil Fred Thoughts: if you’re still using Feedburner, here’s one more reason to get your feed back. #indieweb https://t37.net/if-you-haven-t-dropped-feedburner-yet-this-mind-blowing-reason-will-convince-you-to-do-it.html (twitter.com/_/status/516701404908752896)
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tantek danlyke - quite ok - I myself have quite the hack for posting RSVPs
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tantek s/hack/minimal hack
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Loqi tantek meant to say: danlyke - quite ok - I myself have quite the minimal hack for posting RSVPs
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gRegor` tantek: "Get benwerd to do it"? :)
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gRegor` oh oh, misread. RSVPs, not indie events
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gRegor` danlyke`: Have you seen the conversation recently about antispam measures with webmention?
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tantek gRegor`: that was the old method of posting indie events. the new method is "get KevinMarks to do it for SF"
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gRegor` Re: Feedburner "But most people were actually using it as an online penis enlargement tool, displaying the subscriber counter button on their Web site." haha
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tantek danlyke - you can always only *send* webmentions for now, and postpone receiving until there's an anti-spam approach that works for you.
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tantek oh dear - I see neuro` has gone a bit overboard with the click-bait titling
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gRegor` Whoa. "I was surprised to notice Feedburner was throwing a 400 Bad Request error. Despite Google guidelines promoting the use of HTTPS, Feedburner, a Google service is unable to handle it."
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tantek gRegor`: yeah, acquisition neglect. typically precedes acquisition shutdown.
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@ixisio “Why the Indie Web movement is so important” http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/516702403710947329)
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reedstrm just below the image: "I know I should stop using Buzzfeed like titles, but they’re so lame they’re funny."
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tantek takes the bait and clicks.
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@IndieGameGuys RT ixisio: “Why the Indie Web movement is so important” http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ %E2%80%A6 #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/516702562796732416)
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tantek gRegor`: re: "enlargement tool" - should we document a "subscriber-counter-antipattern" ?
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gRegor` Haha
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gRegor` Mayhaps
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gRegor` I think it's mostly gone away in recent years, though. The number-of-shares-on-silo badges are still popular, though
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tantek gRegor`: there's TONS of "followback" spam on Twitter and Instagram
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tantek which as far as I can tell is purely motivated by a desire to game the # of followers/subscribers visible / prominent indicator
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tantek I feel like Kevinmarks may have written about this kind of bad stats gamification
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tantek what is Feedburner?
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Loqi FeedBurner is a service that aggregates feeds and provides analytics to publishers http://indiewebcamp.com/FeedBurner
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tantek.com edited /FeedBurner (+542) "criticism, lack of https support" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /FeedBurner (+150) "Indieweb examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+17) "push TOC down to make early sections more readable" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+48) "/* Interests */" (view diff)
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danlyke` tantek, my concern with WebMentions is as much that if we collectively generate an additional installed huge base of DDOS platforms (along-side Pingback), we're not doing any good. But I'll ping 'em for now. Sigh.
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tantek danlyke, as you know I agree with your concerns. Let's still play with webmention while it's small and we can figure out UX issues before the spamhordes arrive
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danlyke` tantek, Yeah. It's one of those "well, may as well at least manually invoke requests... for now." things.
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daf I think part of the implicit silo bargain is that they deal with that stuff for you; control for convenience
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tantek danlyke, I have been putting some time into thinking/designing about the webmention (expected) spam problem BTW - I'd be very interested in your thoughts on the proposed "vouch" protocol extension to webmention: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411927207068
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kylewm.com edited /SubToMe (+88) "/* Indieweb Examples */ add me!" (view diff)
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tantek (documented for now just on that IRC page, but I'm planning on / working on wikifying it)
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reedstrm things deep conspiratorial thoughts about the symbiotic relationship between spammers and silo
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daf (hello indiwebbbers!)
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reedstrm ed services that are good at spam supression
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tantek hello daf!
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reedstrm has trouble hitting enter when he wants '
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daf I just stumbled on indiewebcamp today and I'm really interested
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tantek daf - awesome! what's your personal site?
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reedstrm hello daf!
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daf I have an ikiwiki instance that's in zombie mode -- http://rhydd.org
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daf I'm probably most active on http://git.rhydd.org/ right now
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tantek it was killed and came back to life?
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reedstrm tantek: shambling, prolonged death-like state perhaps?
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daf reedstrm: indeed
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danlyke` tantek, so the notion is that I, B, have a record of C linking to A and thus don't have to retrieve C's record? Else we have a current Pingback amplification potential.
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tantek right, wasn't trying to solve the amplification problem, just the spam one for now
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tantek one piece at a time
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danlyke` yeah, the spam one isn't nearly as interesting to me, that's something we have many potential filtering mechanisms for. No solutions, but email is still usable and we don't have a solution to that either.
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tantek I don't consider email really usable any more - not for realtime notifications.
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daf this seems sort of like a decentralised trust problem, but I think most distributed web problems are distributed trust problems
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tantek it's a work task. I pretty much don't do it unless being paid to.
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tantek daf - hoping to not generalize to "trust" - which I think is unnecessary for this use-case.
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tantek that is, it's similar but not the same, nor even same scope
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daf yeah, I don't mean the problem of making reliable "Alice trusts Bob" assertions
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daf for general meanings of "trust"
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daf I think trust assertions have to always be contextual
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daf "I assert that I think this book is worth reading"
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reedstrm The general cross-social-domains organizational problem still defaults to lowest common denominator communication: email. Just attended my kid's orchestra Parent's organization group. Everythings done via email. And I'm glad: it could be a 'join our Facebook Group' instead ...
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barnabywalters good evening
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tantek reedstrm - I'm seeing such LCD comms/groups switch to FB groups
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 9/28 at 6:51pm: re: "stumped as to how to implement blocking" see http://indiewebcamp.com/block
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rascul i find fb groups to be almost unusable for any real use
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tantek barnabywalters: also, how's your work on de-duping going? e.g. the quadruplicate comment here: https://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4Y38Ts/
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reedstrm @tantek like I said - hasn't reached me yet, and I'll fight it with my dying breath ...
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barnabywalters tantek: heh, yeah that’s a particularly bad example
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reedstrm well, I'll seem dead to them, at least :-)
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daf another way of thinking about it is that Google made linking tantamount to approval, and the rest of the web has sort of gone along with it
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danlyke` I'm with rascul. I'm also a square dancer, and recently saw some heavy Facebook adopters in that space discover that they were losing most of their target audience when they moved to Facebook groups and Facebook-only promotion (Was actually somewhat surprised by how much they lost).
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tantek daf - rather, Google took advantage of the fact that linking already *was* a very lightweight form of tacit approval.
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barnabywalters RE webmention/pingback amplification — does the expiring endpoint measure documented here http://indiewebcamp.com/DDOS#Expiring_token_in_endpoint and implemented by aaronpk and myself not solve this problem?
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tantek whereas the text-entity PhD analysts at AltaVista thumbed their noses at determining anything from markup.
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daf Google was very very good before people started gaming it
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barnabywalters I remember asking when we were discussing it last and not getting any particularly certain response
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tantek danlyke - anyway - let me know when you've read through yesterday's log re: vouch and if you have any more comments / questions.
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npdoty tantek, I think "block" and "mute" are most important for the reader side of things, rather than the publishing side. though for inline publishing/linking to comments/responses, you'd want "block" to remove responses from your own site
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tantek npdoty: half-agreed. mute is important for the reader side. block is *more* important for the publishing side.
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tantek block is about stopping *all* interactions someone can have/do with your published content.
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daf tantek: on the other hand, email spam filtering went in the other direction, from overcomplicated spamassassin type stuff to simple word frequency analysis
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tantek daf, and even the best at it (gmail?) still suck at it and I have to delete several pieces a day.
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daf I have weeks where I don't have to delete spam, but point taken
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danlyke` tantek, aside from the amplification attack: When we say "B vouched for A", do we mean that B has vouched for a URL that matches A's URL up to the last slash in the URL B vouched for?
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tantek no - it's based on domain
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tantek like CORS :)
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daf btw, I live in Cambridge so perhaps I'll run into some of you this weekend
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npdoty tantek, indieweb has the limitation that Block can't prevent an abusive user from responding to what you post, only to limiting where those replies are linked/syndicated/re-published
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tantek daf are you coming to IndieWebCampCambridge?
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daf it sort of feels more like IndieWeb is coming to me
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tantek npdoty - limitation compared to what?
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daf aaronpk is staying at my house
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tantek npdoty, if you mean, anyone on the web can link to anything, sure. that's the nature of the web and HTML and URLs.
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npdoty tantek, a silo could delete comments the abuser posted about the abused.
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npdoty tantek, yeah, I'm not actually saying it's a problem, I agree that this is exactly how the Web should work. but it's a reason that Web approaches to abuse are likely to focus on the mute side of things
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tantek npdoty - two examples. on Flickr, blocking someone deletes all comments they made on any of your stuff. On Twitter, blocking someone does not delete *anything*, nor does it stop their @-replies from showing up on your tweets when *others* view your tweets.
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danlyke` tantek, one additional problem: how does C know which B to present as vouching? This'd have to be a manual thing by the poster...
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tantek danlyke - I think you're using those letters differently from the scenarios I've described.
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tantek A sends a webmention to B, using a (perma)link URL of C as a vouch.
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danlyke` tantek Ugh. Got my Bs and Cs mixed: "A sends along a third parameter, let's say "voucher=" ... that includes a URL to C", this means that A has to know that B trusts C.
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danlyke` How does A know which C to send to B?
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tantek danlyke, not *trusts*, but just that B has *linked to* C *sometime in the past*
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npdoty tantek, right, so for Flickr-like block functionality, an indieweb publisher can delete links to comments written by the blocked user so that they don't appear on your own site, but only readers can handle the functionality of hiding those comments for others
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npdoty ... and I'm not sure if we want to call that publisher feature (don't link to/syndicate interactions from user X, Y or Z) "block" or rather "mute"
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tantek danlyke: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411944811025
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danlyke` tantek, ah, okay, so A knows C has linked to A, scans B for links to a C which A knows has lined to A, and then notifies B with that C as a voucher.
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tantek correct. and yes it is by design that this additional "work" is placed on the *sender* of the webmention. in "good actor" cases it is expected to be trivial, and in "bad actor" (spammer, abuser) cases it is expected to be non-trivial. it is designed to be *hard* or *difficult* in the abstract
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danlyke` So A's knowledge of C actually has to be pretty comprehensive, and if we have sites knowing that much about other sites in their ring of trust, we can almost suspect that B doesn't have to poll C again to tell that C has linked to B.
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danlyke` (Need to map out the necessary *cough* database *cough* schema for implementing such a protocol fairly robustly...)
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@ursamajor @andrewducker @ladysisyphus wider point taken, esp re FB's new "Atlas" ad tracker upping the ante. But an #indieweb solution is my hope. (twitter.com/_/status/516716387608571905)
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tantek that reasoning doesn't follow, because it is conflating first and second degree
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tantek danlyke - no database schema needed - just a user flow ;)
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tantek A's knowledge of C does not have to be comprehensive at all - it's expect that if you are in each others second degree then it is trivial to find such a link
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tantek to make this easier, sites software could cache (e.g. in database cache ;) ) *just* the one-degree in-bound webmention links and outbound links from content.
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tantek btw re: the assumption that silos / services are good at spam suppression - inconsistent and varies by silo. twitter is bad at it, per https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=%40t&src=typd
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tantek e.g. trivially I found this spam net: https://twitter.com/search?f=realtime&q=Semana%20Cultural%20dedicada%20al%20Envejeciente%20%40t%20&src=typd (those aren't retweets those are *duplicates* spammed from multiple accounts)
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danlyke` tantek, yeah, that's kind of what I'm thinking: I'm already scanning RSS feeds from my OPML (and from /irc-people), will probably add Microformats shortly. If I track which of those entries link elsewhere, then when A says "C vouches for me at entry [URL]", I can make a "yes" or "no" determination from my local knowledge of links.
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tantek right - for you it will be trivial to implement I expect
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tantek for both sending and receiving vouch
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tantek in general the implementation of receiving / verifying a vouch should be trivial
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bret daf: ikiwiki! Cool! Have been eying it for a while
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danlyke` tantek yeah, my robustness is mostly just about potential race condition between "haven't checked C recently, A sends mention, I may need to store that until my next C check to verify".
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bret.io edited /SubToMe (+68) "/* Indieweb Examples */ Added myself" (view diff)
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daf bret: it seems kind of indieweb-incompatible
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daf I wanted to like ikiwiki
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bret how so?
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daf seems it strips out <link> tags
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bret o_0
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bret odd
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tantek what is ikiwiki?
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Loqi ikiwiki is an open source server software project for hosting a wiki on your own site http://indiewebcamp.com/ikiwiki
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tantek neat!
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gRegor` tantek: So when I receive a webmention + voucher, my verification process is to confirm I have linked to that voucher URL before and ... what else? Or is that it?
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bret ikiwiki uses file-based storage + git iirc
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daf ikiwiki is one of Joey Hess's "everything is git" projects :)
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gRegor` I know I'm missing something on this voucher verification thing
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daf it also calls itself a website compiler
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bret daf: can you git clone [url to ikiwiki wiki repo] ?
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danlyke` gRegor: That you have linked to the *domain* of the voucher URL, and that the entry that the voucher URL links to has a link to the domain of the WebMention requestor.
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (-44) "/* Events */" (view diff)
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daf bret: yeah, and some people even set up unauthenticated git push for pseudo-anonymous editing
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bret heh neato
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daf it does have online editing
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daf but it involved CGI which seems kind of archaic
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daf most of the people I know who use it are Debian developers
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tantek gRegor`: vouch verification described here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-28#t1411943591558
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daf https://www.branchable.com/ is an ikiwiki farm
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tantek what is CGI?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CGI" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CGI
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tantek what is Debian?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Debian" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Debian
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gRegor` Aha
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bret daf: see if you can bend it to your will and make it indieweb friendly >:]
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daf I think it has the same sorts of problems as blosxom/pyblosxom: very flexible/hackable, but hard to set up and maintain in practice
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tantek what is blosxom?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "blosxom" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=blosxom
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tantek what is pyblosxom?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pyblosxom" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pyblosxom
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danlyke` ie: A finds a link on B/123 to C/456, and knows that C/789 links to A/012. So A mentions B/345 on A/678, and sends B a WebMention to B/345 with [A/678, C/789].
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daf bret: working on it :) https://indieauth.com/gpg would be a nice start
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tantek danlyke - you got it
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daf maybe a diagram would help :P
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tantek daf indeed :) user-flow too :)
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tantek danlyke - then B verifies (by whatever internal mechanism it wants) that it has linked to C (blogroll, whitelist, Twitter followings, nicknames cache, outbound link cache)
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tantek and retrieves C/789 and verifies it links to A
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danlyke` tantek: right. A third parameter might be the page on B that links to C. That removes an index requirement from B.
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tantek that would be a fourth parameter :)
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danlyke` tantek indeed, you are correct!
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tantek the "linked to" (what you call "index") requirement precedes vouch
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tantek that is, presumably you (B) have some mechanism by which you accept/reject webmentions from A
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tantek you already have to check that "linked to" mechanism to see, have I (B) linked to A before?
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tantek if so, accept plain webmention, if not, return 412
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tantek so the point is, if you're implementing receiving vouch, you've already implemented some form of "linked to" or "index" checking.
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danlyke` So the message is "A/678 mentions B/345, is vouched for by C/789, which is known by B/123"
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tantek therefore there is no need for a fourth parameter
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tantek instead of "which is known by" , "which links to"
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tantek no notion of "known" or "trust" needed
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tantek s/notion/abstract notion
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Loqi tantek meant to say: no abstract notion of "known" or "trust" needed
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danlyke` tantek, true, but my blog has 20k entries, and I don't right now have any index of outbound links to index ID. If the WebMention request can tell me which of those 20k entries links out to the voucher, that'd help.
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tantek danlyke - however the initial webmention won't either, so you need some mechanism like that in the first place to even start the process of rejection
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danlyke` (I mean, in practice I should index those outbound links anyway because I need to be tracking which of those are now spam farms, and which are 404, etc)
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tantek unless you're just going to reject all plain webmentions ;)
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tantek true!
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danlyke` tantek, or put them in a queue util I can authenticate them somehow, and only to the request back to A when I actually have a notion of A's legitimacy.
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tantek yes that's a serious problem per https://twitter.com/t/status/514502164639911936
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@t just discovered today that federatedsocialweb(.)net got squatted/redirected. who let that expire? @evanpro @W3C? sigh. (ttk.me t4YG1) (twitter.com/_/status/514502164639911936)
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tantek I have yet to go update links to that domain from my site :(
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tantek mo maintenance, mo problems
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danlyke` tantek, yeah, I've been blogging for a decade and a half. Loooots of web rot.
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gRegor` Ooh, barnabywalters' mf2 parser is AJAXy now. Nice. https://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
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tantek danlyke perhaps a criticism of static site generation
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tantek danlyke` is the ` after your nick optional? like an _ ?
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tantek unlike say gRegor` who requires the `
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danlyke` tantek, apparently. I'm playing with an Emacs client, and my closing out the channel in Xchat didn't release the name here.
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danlyke Aha, now it's clear. That wasn't working earlier.
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tantek if you use "_" as the automatic uniquifying suffix then Loqi will assume it's the same person for purposes of log markup, avatar etc.
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Loqi :)
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gRegor` Adding numbers to the A, B, Cs of this might confuse me more. I will await the user flow / diagrams. :)
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danlyke Yeah, the prime tick was whatever the default for ERC is.
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danlyke gRegor, might be tomorrow, but I'll try to draw something up.
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tantek e.g. compare http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-29/line/1412031676686 to line before
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danlyke (ERC being the Emacs IRC client)
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gRegor` I do think I understand it better today, though.
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gRegor` No rush
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GWG Did someone mention me again while I was away?
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gRegor` GWG: I did, wrt micropub and WordPress. Someone was asking about that, for ownyourowngram support.
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GWG That same guy again? Reading up...
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gRegor` http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-29#t1412021787431
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GWG My phone buzzes when someone says my username
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GWG Anyway...
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gRegor` GWG: bzzz
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GWG gRegor`: So, what prompted the idea of 1 item on the main page?
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GWG Just learning
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npdoty are all the implementations that send webmentions trying to send webmentions to every link in the post?
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kylewm GWG: was I correct earlier when I said that Wordpress peeps seemed less interested in Micropub since they already have a posing API?
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npdoty does that create any spurious or annoying webmentions? do any implementations try to limit to only the in-reply-to link?
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kylewm npdoty: even if you tried to pare down which wm's you actually send, someone else could come along and send them "on your behalf". the onus is on the webmention receiver to decide what's annoying/spurious.
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gRegor` GWG: I really liked the idea of a more magazine-like format with a single article on a single page. It lends itself well to minimalism, too, which I really wanted.
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npdoty kylewm, sounds reasonable to me, thanks.
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kylewm npdoty: there have been examples where someone sent a webmention with source=http://waterpigs.co.uk ... not a permalink page but the feed itself
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gRegor` GWG: I also questioned how valubable a stream of the most recent X blog posts was, given the heavier use of feed readers and short attention spans.
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GWG kylewm: Not exactly.
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GWG But only really dedicated individuals use feed readers
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gRegor` GWG: I really like the tumblr archive pages, so took some inspiration from them for gregorlove.com/archives
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GWG gRegor`: I like the unique design
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gRegor` I wasn't clear in the context of "heavier use of feed readers" - my design is from 2008, iirc
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gRegor` feed readers were never that mainstream, true, but a lot of my readers used them at the time (most of my friends were on Google Reader and we loved it)
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gRegor` GWG: thanks, glad you like it. :) I'm just happy I have enjoyed it for so long.
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gRegor` In the past I've spent so long working on new layouts that by the time I'm satisfied and launch it, I'm ready to change it.
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GWG gRegor`: I've been doing that. But I've been using it to learn a lot.
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GWG kylewm: There is a posting API, but there are limits to it.
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GWG kylewm: It's a transition time
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tantek perhaps time to transition to micropub ;)
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GWG tantek: I have a plan
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GWG tantek: I'm just too early
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gRegor` What are the advantages of using WordPress JSON RPC (or whatever) over a plugin that just uses the core WordPress functions like wp_insert_post?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "the advantages of using WordPress JSON RPC (or whatever) over a plugin that just uses the core WordPress functions like wp_insert_post" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+advantages+of+using+WordPress+JSON+RPC+%28or+whatever%29+over+a+plugin+that+just+uses+the+core+WordPress+functions+like+wp_insert_post
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gRegor` Thanks, Loqi
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GWG gRegor`: I looked at both.
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gRegor` The latter seems simpler and likely to be pretty future-proof
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GWG gRegor`: I figured that using the new API which is being developed to intergrate into Wordpress has a better long-term success
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KartikPrabhu re: tantek-ing judas preist I got karma for verb-ing a noun
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GWG gRegor`: The other reason is that, a full Micropub client would require a lot of parsing
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GWG I never did well at parsing
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I believe adactio may have prior art on you ;)
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GWG And for me, I'd really just like a better note UI. The post UI of Wordpress is fine for articles.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: noooooooooooooooo
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GWG gRegor`: Either way, I've been wrong before.
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GWG gRegor`: But, I'll give wp_insert_post a try. Because the REST API isn't ready yet anyway.
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bret lol at https://twitter.com/brad_frost/status/516603995075653632
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@brad_frost "Make your website look like half the other websites on the Web." -Bootstrap@stephenhay at #artifactconf https://twitter.com/brad_frost/status/516603995075653632/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/516603995075653632)
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