#indieweb 2017-04-22

2017-04-22 UTC
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aaronpk Uh, I'm pretty sure that plugin uses an undocumented API
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aaronpk given that the number of installs is 600+
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aaronpk officially, Instagram does not have an API to post photos
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aaronpk If there was an official API to post photos I wouldn't have made OwnYourGram ;-)
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[cleverdevil] ?
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[cleverdevil] That was what I figured.
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[cleverdevil] Undocumented API, very likely to get shut down, etc.
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dansup oh neat
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aaronpk I guess at this point ownyourgram is using an "undocumented API" to fetch photos so what's the difference?
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[chrisaldrich] I'm pretty sure the paid version of SNAP does the same thing for WordPress too.
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@kevinmarks @matthewhagopian @meganzlock @frontendconf microformats are alive and well and living in #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/855585279620640768)
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gRegorLove Looks like that WP plugin is using https://github.com/mgp25/Instagram-API
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Loqi gRegorLove: Salt left you a message 2 hours, 25 minutes ago: let's try to reschedule the meeting asap, http://whenisgood.net/mcqkcpz
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gRegorLove Salt: Sorry I forgot. This week has been chaotic. I'm free now, though.
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gRegorLove Hah. "Motivations: After legal measures, Facebook, WhatsApp and Instagram blocked my accounts. In order to use Instagram on my phone I needed a new phone, as they banned my UDID, so that is basically why I made this API."
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dansup hey snarfed, I made a graphic to explain my AS2 library. https://cl.ly/2n3M1n2R3a2S/o
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dansup I still have a lot of work ahead of me :)
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snarfed dansup: ok!
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snarfed server, interesting. does AS2 specify an API as well as a data model?
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dansup it outputs the json with the proper AS2 content-type
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snarfed for AS1 i used the opensocial API. https://github.com/snarfed/granary#using-the-rest-api
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snarfed ah, not an API then. ok.
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snarfed my only feedback might be, you might want to start top down, with an actual use case, rather than bottom up, starting with plumbing
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snarfed (also, while i'm personally partial to AS, even AS2 with all of its complexity...mf2 is generally the lingua franca here :P)
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dansup I could make a method to parse a query string and generate one sure, I do have a use case too
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dansup I'm working on a statusnet/mastodon clone
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snarfed ahh ok
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dansup mf2 will be quite important as well, but I found a few awesome libraries :D
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snarfed feel free to use granary to convert between AS and mf2
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dansup cool, thanks!
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snarfed dansup: remind me which version of AS gnu social, statusnet, and mastodon are?
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dansup 1.1
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dansup nobody has implemented 2 to my knowledge
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snarfed ...
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snarfed and afaik they're not very compatible, right?
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dansup i want to change that, and add micropub support too
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dansup not really
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dansup https://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#activitystreams-1.0
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snarfed oh, so you plan to support both AS1 and AS2?
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dansup yes
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snarfed ambitious
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snarfed gl!
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dansup thanks, implementing all these routes will be more time consuming than rewriting the libs. https://github.com/socialnode-org/social-faker/blob/dev/routes/web.php
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dansup and transformers really save a lot of time, https://github.com/socialnode-org/social-faker/blob/dev/app/Social/Transformers/PublicTimelineTransformer.php
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snarfed yeah, again, maybe just get a small vertical slice MVP working that does something personally want, then gradually expand
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gRegorLove What is ActivityStreams?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/ActivityStreams
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gRegorLove What is ActivityStreams?
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Loqi ActivityStreams (AS) is a standardization effort to define common types of objects and actions (verbs) taken on various social media sites https://indieweb.org/ActivityStreams
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dansup snarfed, yeah, that is the plan. social-faker can generate as1 feeds from fake data, it cant yet consume them until I finish this library
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martymcguire[m] haha I just relistened to this week's newsletter audio edition. I hope people enjoy my audio riff on /html_regex at the end. A little sillier than I usually play it
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Loqi awesome
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martymcguire[m] (please forgive this patting myself on the back)
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[eddie] martymcguire[m]: I actually listened to it while driving home this evening. It was epic ?
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[eddie] ??
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martymcguire[m] haha, thanks! When I made my script for this week it seemed too fun to pass up.
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[eddie] Definitely! ?
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strk is it intentional not to follow rel=me links ? (I think I read on the wiki that those links were supposed to be followed ?)
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KartikPrabhu rel-me links are followed for different purposes
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KartikPrabhu indieauth uses them for example
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strk my setup is: rel=me points to my homepage, my homepage has rel=authorization_endpoint
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strk tried outermost URL to indieauth.com which found all rel=me but did not recurse into them to find authorization_endpoint
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KartikPrabhu indieauth does not traverse rel-me to find authorisation endpoint
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strk resulting in not finding any "supported" authentication providers (rel=me only points to my homepage and to my OpenID URLs)
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strk indieauth the protocol or the .com service ?
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KartikPrabhu the authorisation endpoint is assumed to exist on whatever URL you are using as login
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KartikPrabhu I think both
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strk ok, so the only way to make GNUSocial compatible with indieauth would be to make it act as a proxy, right ?
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strk with authorization_endpoint pointing to self and implementing the protocol
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KartikPrabhu I'm not familar enough with GNUsocial
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strk this is really about indieauth, not gnusocial
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strk that is: what does it take for an independent publisher to be able to authenticate self to "indieauth" services
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strk I understand there are already 2 different mechanisms being used
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strk 1. RelMeAuth
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strk 2. Authorization_Endpoint
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strk "compliant" IndieAuth implementations would only deal with 2
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strk "compliant" RelMeAuth would deal with 1
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strk so a (consuming) service would need to implement both to be as open as possible, correct ?
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KartikPrabhu sounds right
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strk it shows how hard and important the standardization work is :)
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strk openid++ !
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Loqi openid has 1 karma in this channel (-1 overall)
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strk what's the karma of RelMeAuth ?
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KartikPrabhu !karma relmeauth
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Loqi relmeauth has 0 karma
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strk now, in RelMeAuth, what makes an authentication provider "supported" ?
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strk http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth says: "links to profiles on OAuth supporting services"
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Loqi RelMeAuth is a proposed open standard for using rel-me links to profiles on OAuth supporting services to authenticate via either those profiles or your own site. RelMeAuth is the technology behind web-sign-in. Editor Tantek Çelik (http://tan...
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KartikPrabhu yes
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strk how does an implementation know if the linked service supports OAuth ?
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KartikPrabhu https://github.com/themattharris/RelMeAuth here is a implementation
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strk doesn't mention what it supports
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strk another issue: directly entering a github profile as your "web address" fails to log you in
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strk which means unless you do have a website of your own you just can't login to indieauth web services, right ?
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gRegorLove What is IndieAuth?
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Loqi IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites — it's like OpenID, but works with services you likely already use, and is much easier to setup https://indieweb.org/IndieAuth
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gRegorLove Github profile isn't your own domain
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strk ok but a service that's only accessible to those who own a domain is a bit elitarian, is that really an accepted situation for indieweb ?
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strk I mean, is that intended, to give an advantage to those who have the tecnical ability to setup their own website and pay for their own domain ?
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strk it's particularly inconsistent when twitter/github/google are then *accepted* authorization endpoints
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gRegorLove Not sure I understand. Indieweb is about personal domains.
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strk it's probably me not undersanding why would anyone want to use "IndieAuth" as their only authentication mean
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gRegorLove Indieweb isn't like a purist approach where we never use services we don't run. We leverage them where we can and work to own our content as much as possible. Twitter, Github, etc. can all be replaced with some other authorization service, and there's entirely non-silo based options for authentication too, like email and GPG
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strk from a service provider point of view, you have to decide how you authenticate your users
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gRegorLove IndieAuth doesn't have to be the only authentication mean one uses
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strk right, because I sensed this non-purist approach, I don't see why the RelMeAuth algorithm doesn't consider finding the OAuth endpoint in the top-level website
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strk I understand the algorithm is like this:
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strk 1. Find rel=me links in the given page
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strk 2. For each link:
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strk 2.1. If an OAuth endpoint is found, use that
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strk END
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strk so I'm wondering why the OAuth endpoint is not also looked for in the given page (top-level)
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strk would also reduce indirections
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strk it would work for your own domain, but also for any domain you'd link with rel=me
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strk those "supported auth services" indieauth.com refers to
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strk instead it *forces* you to have one more indirection
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strk even if you do have a working OAuth, it forces you to use another url, where you can control the HTML to write rel=me link href=the-actual-oauth-service
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strk so it's one forced indirection too many, no ?
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strk would it take a rel=me href=$SELF_URI when you have your own OAuth ?
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gRegorLove Not sure about the OAuth endpoint stuff. aaronpk could probably answer better. It hasn't been requested much at all in my time around the indieweb though
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gRegorLove At least I don't think it has
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strk do you have stats about how many indieauth.com users rely on propritary services and how many on their own services to authenticate ?
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strk an aggregate stat about which rel=me links are most used (email,pgp,twitter,github,...)
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gRegorLove If I underrstand correctly, if your authorization_endpoint handles OAuth, rel-me links aren't required for IndieAuth the protocol.
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gRegorLove That's a good question. aaronpk might have that, not sure.
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strk yes, I understood authorization_endpoint (IndieAuth) is fine. This was specifically for RelMeAuth.
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strk which seems to be more oriented toward making it easy for people to authenticate on the IndieWeb
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gRegorLove Everyone on https://indieweb.org/irc-people has logged in with IndieAuth, so that's one measurement
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gRegorLove I think it's generally made it really easy. It leverages external OAuth providers without having to implement it yourself.
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gRegorLove Here's a chat log with tantek talking about it: https://indieweb.org/irc/2014-07-23#t1406155215000
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gRegorLove Oops, couple lines back, started with "why does relmeauth need a silo backlink?"
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gRegorLove That's probably about as helpful as I can be on OAuth related stuff though. It's late here too, so I'm off to bed. G'night
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@greatestview Für die WordPress-Blogger unter euch: https://greatestview.de/bloggen-mit-indieweb-kontrolliere-deine-social-media-kanaele/ (twitter.com/_/status/855693067487203328)
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strk "has logged in" where ?
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Guest32097 here ?
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strk disreguard, that was me
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[kevinmarks] Also, silo.pub is a way to use silo accounts where you would normally need your own site
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strk silo.pub uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate expired on 03/31/2017 08:41 AM. The current time is 04/22/2017 10:15 AM.
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strk and gives 502 Bad Gateway upon accepting the certificate
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[kevinmarks] Gah.
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[kevinmarks] Can we club together to sysadmin for kylewm ?
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[kevinmarks] There's an instance at https://silopub.p3k.io but it doesn't have all the silos
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[jeremycherfas] Is it sysadmin or money that is required?
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Who am I? Who does the web think I am?" by Colin Walker on 2017-04-22 http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/ColinWalker/~3/cf5vOEoT8lw/
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martymcguire[m] is game to help admin woodwind and silopub
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Who am I? Who does the web think I am?" by Colin Walker on 2017-04-22 https://medium.com/@colinwalker/who-am-i-who-does-the-web-think-i-am-d8a1329bfea0?source=rss-a7aa408c8287------2
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snarfed new bridgy feature! you can rerun backfeed on any old post (silo or original). just enter the url on your user page. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/579
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GWG snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 262 karma in this channel (269 overall)
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 263 karma in this channel (270 overall)
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GWG I want to accomplish something
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amz3` me too
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[jhsheridan] me too!
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dansup me 2 thanks
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dgold is puzzling over how to mf2 markup a 'currently reading' post
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dgold h-entry, yes, is a given
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dgold but a progress-bar, or a coverimage?
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ben_thatmustbeme dgold: unless there is some need to parse it, is there a need to create markup for it?
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dgold that's a particularly accurate point, ben_thatmustbeme
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dgold accurate and persuasive
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ben_thatmustbeme Think about how it will be displayed, start with it as just a generic note, then if need arises, add markup
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dgold oh, I've got how it displays, just uploading it to my production server now
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dgold db is still faked, but it shows what I'm `reading`
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dgold there - https://ascraeus.org/review/
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Loqi Night Without Stars
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dgold the reading progress thing is what I've been working on
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ben_thatmustbeme Oh nice
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ben_thatmustbeme What is reading
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Loqi To read or reading is the act of viewing and interpreting posts or other documents; on the IndieWeb, a read post expresses that something has been read, like a book or section thereof https://indieweb.org/reading
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GWG Dgold, got a moment?
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dgold GWG: yes, I do!
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dgold kinda sugared out from a child's birthday though :-)
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GWG dgold, I made some changes in the last upgrade to Post Kinds based on your feedback.
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dgold oh, thank you GWG, I'll swing by and take a look
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dgold GWG++ that is _very_ nicely presented
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Loqi gwg has 198 karma in this channel (217 overall)
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GWG The settings page helps you now?
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dgold yes - very much so. presenting that information with the settings is particularly nicely done
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GWG dgold, I made it part of a major change in strings
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GWG dgold, anything else I can do?
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dgold not that I can think of at the moment, GWG
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dgold that's a real improvement on what was previous
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dgold I liked what you wrote about avatars & identity
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dgold wait, I could be confusing different people
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dgold no, that was you
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GWG It was. I would love to build that
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GWG Trying to decide what to do next
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skippy does a u-url element only go inside an h-entry? That is, I wouldn't apply "class='u-url'" to an external link within an article, would i?
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[colinwalker] The Post Kinds add-in seriously conflicts with my WordPress theme :( I need to have a good look at why.
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GWG Conflicts how?
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GWG It is hard to implement a one size fits all solution, but maybe I can help?
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aaronpk skippy: u-url indicates the URL of the h-entry, so only add it to where you include the permalink of the post
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KartikPrabhu u-url most likely doesn't even get parsed unless inside a h-*
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skippy thanks
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[colinwalker] GWG: it completely overtakes the CSS. My theme already includes article elements images get removed and everything gets massive padding round posts. I just need to spend some time looking at it.
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GWG [colinwalker]: I'd love feedback on how to make it less invasive. It isn't supposed to overtake it.
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GWG [colinwalker]: The problem is some themes need more or less invasiveness and it can't really tell. You can always dequeue the CSS sheet and see what happens.
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GWG [colinwalker]: But I'm ready to work with any feedback to try to help.
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[colinwalker] Yeah, I'll try that and see what happens. Thanks. Will let you know how it goes. Perhaps a toggle in settings to dequeue in the event of issues?
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GWG [colinwalker]: I had something there like that I took out because it seemed to confuse people more. I think the better solution is to try to adjust the CSS to be better targeted.
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GWG I think I had done that...not using standard classes, being specific in my IDs, but I will revisit
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GWG I just looked. I'm using u-url. I shouldn't be doing that.
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GWG Hmm...making a note.
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GWG [colinwalker]: Other than that, it is generally working for you?
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[jeremycherfas] !tell Colinwalker I was looking at your site earlier and wondering what these you use. Very attractive, easy to read, clean and simple.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[colinwalker] jeremycherfas it's a heavily modified version of the standard minnow theme. I stripped out the sidebar and made a lot of other changes. Thanks for stopping by.
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Loqi [colinwalker]: [jeremycherfas] left you a message 1 minute ago: I was looking at your site earlier and wondering what these you use. Very attractive, easy to read, clean and simple.
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GWG [colinwalker]: What is the URL?
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[jeremycherfas] Interesting. Thanks. I'm anguishing over a possible change of theme to one of my sites, hence the interest.
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[colinwalker] @GWG - https:/:colinwalker.blog - got it in maintenance at the mo while I have a look.
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GWG [colinwalker]: That would explain why I can't see it. I'll wait till it is back up
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[colinwalker] Oops https://colinwalker.blog
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[colinwalker] Done
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GWG [colinwalker]: Post Kinds is an attempt to automate some things, but, snarfed, for example, advocates manual till it hurts.
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[colinwalker] Main posts are okay on single post page but "status" posts aren't - possibly conflicting with Note. The posts page, however, has issues even without the CSS loading.
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GWG [colinwalker]: Please file any bugs you can track in the github repo for the plugin. I'm always eager to fix any problems.
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[colinwalker] I try as much manually as I can but I'm a hobbyist at best ? so struggle with some stuff.
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[colinwalker] Will do. When I get some time to go through it I'll see if I can narrow stuff down.
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GWG [colinwalker]: I tried to map one to the other, but Post Kinds is more meant to replace Post Formats than supplement.
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[colinwalker] Deactivating the plugin for now and will report back
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GWG [colinwalker]: That's fine.
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[colinwalker] Ok cool, that would explain it then - would probably have to duplicate the CSS for the kinds rather than formats
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GWG [colinwalker]: The landscape for Indieweb on WordPress has the opportunity for many different pieces being put together. Not every piece is for everyone.
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[colinwalker] Amen to that
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GWG [colinwalker]: Post Kinds includes a theme template option where you can write templates inside your theme that will override the default within the plugins.
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[colinwalker] jeremycherfas Yeah, I agonised over this - I hate most themes and just wanted something really minimal.
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snarfed hey aaronpk, you still consider the list of domains in wm.io private, right?
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aaronpk webmention.io? I don't know if I've ever said that specifically. Definitely about IndieAuth.com tho
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snarfed ah ok. do you feel differently about wm.io?
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aaronpk to use webmention.io you have to publicly link to it so I might consider that public enough
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snarfed ooh ok...
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snarfed i'd happily use it for a good cause if so
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snarfed !tell benwerd any chance you'd consider sharing the list of subdomains on hosted known for a community project?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed if anyone else knows of big lists of indieweb sites, let me know! (besides IRC_People, webmention.io, bridgy, and hosted known.)
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snarfed voxpelli: any chance you'd consider sharing the list of domains served by https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ ?
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[dym] general question, how would you go about presenting ~10k tweet+ sized text entities
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[dym] b/c timeline layout is only good for ephemeral flow
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[dym] tags and other generalization strategies are valid to some level, but once you get 100+ items on a single tag – it's back to bible-esq pages upon pages
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[dym] and calendar/date view is super inconsistent
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aaronpk I guess it would depend on the content and the purpose of displaying the text
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aaronpk how do you want people to interact with it?
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ben_thatmustbeme Snarfed, I've been tempted to find someone to work with on an indieweb crawler
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[dym] generally, just read through it and share those liked
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[dym] once way i was imagining it is to just make a one-item-at-a-time reader with just 2 buttons, "like" and "next"
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KartikPrabhu won't that give "pages upon pages" too?
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[dym] but you only see one, so it would only be one page :thinking:
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KartikPrabhu I mean why not put 10 on one page and then people can clik "next" for the next 10?
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KartikPrabhu you can have a "like" button for each of the 10
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[dym] to minimize amount of time spent on mouse moving – the like/next could be kb-shortcuts
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[dym] plus, scrolling on mobile devices is a huge bottleneck
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KartikPrabhu i like scrolling more that click next
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[dym] by that i mean it's small bottleneck so its a big problem
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[dym] i mean, you can blind mwheelUp/Down to be actions
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sknebel [dym]: this is not 100%, and only a list of short notes, but https://indieweb.org/2016/Brighton/beyondstreams might be interesting in that context
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sknebel I think it depends on the goal you have with the presentation.
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[dym] \/sidenote, why is wiki 1024px wide?
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sknebel for scrolling through a list, I personally like how many feed readers and e-mail clients do it: endless list (with collapsed entries if they are longer), with one-button shortcuts (often j/k) for jumping between them
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[dym] yes, that's what i mean in general
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[dym] so, imagine twitter would just hide tweets you already saw, that way you dig deep w/o any redundant scrolling
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[dym] was thinking about installing a gnu-social/mastodon instance but the main public-facing timeline is just the same, so unless you read through some mobile app – same problem
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[dym] ever more so if i would export my notes from the last 10+ years
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aaronpk [dym]: I show my posts in pages of 10, but more often I browse them by tag or searching
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aaronpk and sometimes by my date archive pages, both by month and day
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aaronpk I have a *lot* of posts, and it works pretty well
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[dym] that's when you know the tag/date or what exactly you searching for.
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[dym] but if you go on someone elses tweet/blog page never seen before – your only option is to scroll hoping something interesting will pop up soon.
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miklb assuming they don't have search?
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aaronpk Or click hashtags you find in other posts...
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miklb oh, misread
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miklb I used to have a related posts section after a post
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aaronpk i also sort my posts into "channels" so you can browse my text notes, photos, videos, articles, etc
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[dym] assuming all posts are properly tagged AND dont have tag "untagged" with 300 entries
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[dym] content type is nice, true
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KartikPrabhu [dym]: how would people find "interesting posts" anyway without tags or search?
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KartikPrabhu since "interesting" depends on who's reading
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[dym] what's my question exactly
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[dym] that's
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miklb just put them in a carousel and people can watch them go by until they see one they like and click it
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KartikPrabhu [dym]: I don't understand. without any markers like tags there is no way to do this
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GWG aaronpk: How has audience been working for you?
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sknebel outside of making things skimmable as discussed above, I guess you'd want to a) exclude "known-boring" stuff and b) present a variety of things, so show content from *different* tags (for unstructured text, maybe some text analysis tools could provide input. deciding that texts are not about the same thing should be easier than correctly classifying them
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: I disagree. classifying is simpler than deciding that something is *not* this class
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KartikPrabhu easier to decide if something is tag1 instead of something is not tag3
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sknebel hm
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KartikPrabhu any post could be *not* {add infinite list of stuff}
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sknebel it only has to be "not <things the previous posts are about>". and the next one then can be any post thats "not <things the previous posts are about>" and "not <things the last post was about>", ...
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KartikPrabhu ok so for an untagged post how does one decide that it isn't "tag = funny"?
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sknebel because it's feature vector doesn't look like one of a post that's "tag = funny" (or like the ones of the posts before, without considering tags). I have no idea if a few k posts are enough to do that meaningfully though.
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KartikPrabhu I have no idea how to even write a pseudo code for "feature vector" without taking into account the reader's funny preference
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KartikPrabhu so unless the reader marks things as not-funny explicitly, there is no actual information to decide
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sknebel hm, you are right, something like "funny" is tricky to decide since funny is not a topic
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sknebel that's a problem
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KartikPrabhu [dym]: going back to your presentation, how would you decide if some post is "interesting" for a reader?
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KartikPrabhu I am assuming you want to decide this programmatically since you don't seem to be convinced by tags
KevinMarks joined the channel
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aaronpk GWG: i haven't made too many posts with an audience since launching that
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GWG aaronpk: I found the idea interesting, and was looking forward to more data