#indieweb 2017-05-22

2017-05-22 UTC
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GWG Evening
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miklb evening
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GWG miklb: In light of my RSVP issue, I'm thinking of working on improving the kind templates
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miklb sure, I saw that issue
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GWG My plan was always to have individual templates for the kinds, not the generic one.
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GWG But I never executed
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GWG miklb: Any thoughts on any specialized design for any kind? Not the RSVP issue?
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GWG The reason I stalled on it was lack of ideas to distinguish. But even the benefit of fewer conditionals is probably worth it
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miklb I truthfully would keep any design or style minimal but focus on classes that theme/user can hook into to customize
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GWG I want to look at the helper classes I built in class-kind-view to do some of the work.
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miklb I should have been clear, CSS classes theme/user can hook into
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Loqi it is probable
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GWG I have to make some changes there too
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KartikPrabhu finally got a nice layout for note photo posts: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/clouds
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Loqi [Kartik Prabhu] https://images1-focus-opensocial.googleusercontent.com/gadgets/proxy?url=https%3A%2F%2Flh3.googleusercontent.com%2FK92uzDxTyNCnBGcoN0LmTSlY04KytxC9F78017XVubHYecA6NBfI55LagNMzbOFKBmJVaUNf90a_AULC5U39gcsBvJA-wkzt5G8ZEjDkAiV0H1sQqBA0P7SpVbMtI8NWpR66lQy... https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/K92uzDxTyNCnBGcoN0LmTSlY04KytxC9F78017XVubHYecA6NBfI55LagNMzbOFKBmJVaUNf90a_AULC5U39gcsBvJA-wkzt5G8ZEjDkAiV0H1sQqBA0P7SpVbMtI8NWpR66lQyUcAQK5ANUhg3oyV25EayefGuTeKr2g_3lOwe7N-X88lVwV2yLdB_FSXCB3MyHrmWa5Jzb_NjI1ZDfM6yANNRalzeAkhHOqesZkNUd3OEY2pdmPLb5B0e_IE-GhFgapeIbtrtwIjbavWS-hclAR9RLxcR3KBWR_ilnw7gIJ8KynosgYNJmAT615307c0pJAByjT8NdhpIeBqlm3LEu0cP0EvFyeVCYrGvShLO58UHeYytvx-j9A45Mi4jOhOfYh0SGviWAjnEHrtdM5N87im0aclSdMYENQnqkBvU__8qsZ_OAfWqUyGGSkHyeE-ay3af8mccfvqC-LsUB5abVydVJ_5ODG0LV0U6s8KcFA2C3bdKNP_vZHnI-KErIKbXzMJnvOZZUTafbxAQgdCXtQCDbAHkg0TaNp4eEJEkT66kiI_Z7WkeDJhAkYdNDtjqw7_mlZm8SeAP7GJzHBo5OhR677qjKHMMPijwxlzwlPZc3ReVbLw=s5000
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GWG Clouds
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snarfed myfreeweb your https://github.com/myfreeweb/micro-panel object is kind of brilliant. i love it. congrats!
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Loqi [myfreeweb] micro-panel: Admin panel for micropub and microformats2
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GWG Hello, snarfed
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snarfed evening!
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[jeremycherfas] Zegnat: My buddy said:
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[jeremycherfas] jeremycherfas Personal pronouns in Esperanto are ridiculously simple:
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[jeremycherfas] @larand
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[jeremycherfas] You = vi (there is only one form)
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[jeremycherfas] I = mi
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aaronpk Hope this works this time! https://aaronparecki.com/2017/05/22/15/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] at BER6771 • Mon, May 22, 2017 7:33am ...
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aaronpk Oops I need a p-name
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gRegorLove Apparently Medium has something called Medium Series now which is app-only. "Series are mobile stories that can be added to over time and unfold card by card with the tap of your finger. This is our first step toward building a new way to read on Medium that’s both seamless and serialized." :/
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gRegorLove https://blog.medium.com/welcome-to-series-a-new-type-of-story-on-medium-bade380985c4
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gRegorLove Disappointing when I clicked through to read a friend's posts and only be prompted to get the app
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Zegnat [jeremycherfas] thanks for asking around. Will add a link to this chat on my wiki.
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[jeremycherfas] You're welcome.
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Zegnat Is your webmention plugin work available somewhere yet, [jeremycherfas]?
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gRegorLove Zegnat: Re: http://wiki.zegnat.net/microformats/pronoun you raise good questions about languages and pronouns
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gRegorLove I'm only aware of one consumer of the mf2 so far, Greg V, so it's still pretty experimental
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gRegorLove The prefix of -x for experimental mf2 is a good question/comment for #microformats. I'm not sure really.
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Zegnat The -x- is actually only listed as a proposal for mf2, I believe. And I personally feel the proposal should be ignored. I will do more formal comments on the mf wiki today, if time permits
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gRegorLove I'm not sure using u-pronoun aids much in the consuming of the mf2, though, unless the URL has some well-defined mf that can also be consumed.
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aaronpk Yay my flight tracker worked!
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gRegorLove "-x" is also only one example of prefixes. I know aaronpk uses -p3k for some properties.
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gRegorLove I think it can be good in some instances to avoid it being assumed what's a commonly accepted mf2 property
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aaronpk For things specific to my software, like my concept of "channels" for posts
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gRegorLove Yeah, or trips https://aaronparecki.com/2017/05/10/19/
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Zegnat gRegorLove, I agree re: consuming. That’s why I said it was “user focussed, not computer focussed”. But I also firmly believe that we cannot have classes for every possible pronoun case without consulting a linguist on every language. That discussion should probably be had in #microformats tas well though :)
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Zegnat I was mainly posting about it here because I worked on this during IWC
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Ooh, the flight path on https://aaronparecki.com/2017/05/22/15/ ?
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aaronpk Yeah!
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gRegorLove Very cool.
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aaronpk That means probly my long flight next will work!
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gRegorLove How frequently does it update?
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aaronpk 5 minutes
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aaronpk I get charged for every API call so I have to be careful
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Comment on RSS Feeds: A Follow up on My IndieWeb Commitment 2017 by john johnston" by john johnston on 2017-05-18 http://boffosocko.com/2016/12/18/rss-feeds-a-follow-up-on-my-indieweb-commitment-2017/#comment-34678
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@Sebsel Comparing @aaronpk's flight on his website to the one on Flight24, during breakfast with @calum_ryan #indieweb… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/866551236878839808 (twitter.com/_/status/866551236878839808)
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aaronpk I have two copies of that flight on my site now lol
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aaronpk one from my gps and one from the FlightAware API
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Zegnat Which is the better map?
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aaronpk My gps lost the lock half way through but it's better for the beginning
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sknebel____ Good morning IndieWeb! Bye Nürnberg!
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sknebel myfreeweb: micro-panel looks cool, maybe it can save me quite a lot of work to build similar pieces myself
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sknebel myfreeweb++
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Loqi myfreeweb has 14 karma in this channel (19 overall)
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Zegnat Morning sknebel! In your train?
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sknebel Train station right now, but soon
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aaronpk that was a rather unpleasant experience. i think next time i'll take the train back to dusseldorf instead of flying
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sknebel What happened?
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aaronpk long passport line just to get to the gate for the next flight
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Zegnat Last time I flew from DUS was through the express lane, which helped a lot. Sometimes feels like that airport has had some scaling issues.
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cweiske Zegnat, express lane is probably only for EU citizens
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Zegnat cweiske, could be. I also don’t know how it is when switching from local to continental flights.
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cweiske but aaron's problem was the flight between nürnberg and düsseldorf
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cweiske photos indiewebcamp nürnberg 2017: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/sets/72157684052275085/
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aaronpk yeah the express lane is for EU passports. they only had 2 people working the Ausländer line and it was super super long, bleeding into the security checkpoint exit. it was a mess.
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aaronpk yay julie!
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Loqi ?
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Zegnat Oh, cweiske, I took his comment “for the next flight” to mean the layover switching in DUS
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cweiske btw, there is a download button on flickr but it's nearly impossible to see
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Zegnat Photos came out really well, as always! Looked through them last night. Not good for my FOMO though
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cweiske *now* the button is visible. previously I the tollwerk logo was above it
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sknebel At least on day one Julie had real talent to catch me always with the weirdest exptessions :P
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sknebel !tell Sebsel you were right, there is a bit about species in the mf wiki, but IMHO nothing that really makes sense to use?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk just added caching headers to my background map
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sknebel (in general, if someone has ideas on how to better mark up species names than e.g. <i translate="no" class="species" lang="la">Aegithalos caudatus europaeus</i> (like I did here https://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/12/25/), I'd like to know
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Loqi [Sven Knebel] https://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/12/20/Schwanzmeise_europaeus.jpghttps://www.svenknebel.de/posts/2016/12/22/Schwanzmeise_caudatus.jpg winter garden guests: Long-Tailed Tits, Aegithalos caudatus europaeus
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[kevinmarks] The species microformat stuff was pretty speculative, and all by one person as I recall
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sknebel seemed so
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Zegnat Make it class="h-species" and you are done, sknebel ;)
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sknebel and I talked to people who deal with this professionally and the taxonomy stuff is a still changing, even for "easy" things like birds
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sknebel (case in point, the file names reveal that we at first thought these 2 birds in the post were two different subspecies, which lead to a few long e-mails back and forth with an expert and reading a few papers to conclude that no, they probably just are differently colored ones of the same species
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sknebel hm, I could pin a post with links and translations to different languages in the category for the species
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Zegnat Or do what I did for pronoun and link to an external resource that describes the specie instead of trying to document it yourself
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[kevinmarks] Species taxonomy is another example of trying to impose a hierarchy on something that is more complicated than that. It is also under pressure from dna sequencing that challenges the underlying structure.
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[kevinmarks] I'd suggest redoing or updating the research phase, as I suspect that you'll find different classification details among different communities of practice.
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sknebel yes, its still changing, and often the modern taxonomy isn't all that useful because it doesn't match the grouping observers use. so I'm not convinced there is much value in marking it up etc outside of dedicated databases that are properly maintained. just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anthing interesting
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Zegnat sknebel, did you check schema? Would not be surprised to find they have tried something
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sebsel I can't find one in the full hierarchy http://schema.org/docs/full.html – only 'AnimalShelter' and 'Creation' (instead of creature) and no 'Species'.
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Loqi sebsel: sknebel left you a message 42 minutes ago: you were right, there is a bit about species in the mf wiki, but IMHO nothing that really makes sense to use?
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Zegnat sebsel, looks you are right. Not even schema covers taxonomy/species
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Zegnat The taxon property on this old proposal is the closest it got, that I can find: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebSchemas/BioDatabases
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pfefferle good morning
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skippy ahoy hoy
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Zegnat !tell tantek re: diversity at conferences, craft-conf has special “diversity tickets”, which I personally find weird but are rooted on an interesting idea. https://craft-conf.com/2016 (down the page)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme in other news, back to working on my website rewrite
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ben_thatmustbeme in laravel
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ben_thatmustbeme adding packages for indieauth too
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@iwontsignuphere ... aaand just finished uploading the photos of @indiewebcamp - @btconf edition from Düsseldorf! @sipgateDE <3 https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/albums/72157680685498553 (twitter.com/_/status/866657963292995585)
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sebsel did Facebook get rid of the 'maybe' RSVP?
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sebsel I can only do 'yes' 'ignore' and 'interested'.
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voxpelli sebsel: yes, they probably felt "Interested" was a more accurate label on the actual behaviour
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sebsel ah, I thought they at one point existed next to eachother
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sebsel but according to http://microformats.org/wiki/rsvp-examples#Facebook
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Loqi rsvp-examples
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sebsel they are different for private and public events
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Loqi [superfeedr] "Getting plugged in – part 4: meta boxes" by Colin Walker on 2017-05-22 https://colinwalker.blog/2017/05/22/getting-plugged-in-part-4-meta-boxes/
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[colinwalker] Afternoon all
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miklb good morning!
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[colinwalker] Hi miklb
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miklb O_/
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raucao hi
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raucao i just replaced the lanyrd badge on my site with just static markup: https://sebastian.kip.pe/
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Loqi Sebastian Kippe
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raucao but now i'm wondering how to mark up events that i'm attending
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raucao rsvp seems to need content, like "yes" or sth
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sebsel you can make a h-entry with an u-in-reply-to and a p-rsvp :)
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raucao and just normal hevent doesn't communicate my attendance and is sometimes mistaken for my site being the publisher/organizer of the event, or not?
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sebsel no need for an p-/e-content
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miklb https://twitter.com/elemanssoftware/status/866683031184175108
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@elemanssoftware News Explorer 1.6 for #macOS introduces support for #JSONFeed! Find out what's new in our blog: https://betamagic.nl/blog.html https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAcS20YWsAUwzsy.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/866683031184175108)
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raucao sebsel: cool. how would i structure that?
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sebsel raucao here are mine: https://seblog.nl/rsvp
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@Lansyn Das #indiewebcamp auf der #nueww @tollwerk ! #lansyn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0VCDDqVF08&feature=youtu.be&a= (twitter.com/_/status/866683444524441600)
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sebsel raucao nd for more examples, see http://indieweb.org/rsvp#How_to
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sebsel does that help?
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raucao thx, yes
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raucao so i use an empty element for the p-rsvp
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tantek why?
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Loqi tantek: Zegnat left you a message 3 hours, 9 minutes ago: re: diversity at conferences, craft-conf has special “diversity tickets”, which I personally find weird but are rooted on an interesting idea. https://craft-conf.com/2016 (down the page)
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raucao tantek: that's what i just saw?
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raucao i don't know what the content of the element would be in my case
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raucao that's kind of my question
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tantek hmm - that's a last resort
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sebsel hmm, raucao are we talking about the events on your homepage?
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tantek raucao - do you ever RSVP to an event without any content?
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raucao tantek: yes, i have rsvps with content on my status posts site, but on my homepage i just want to showcase the events people can find me at
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raucao so i'm wondering how to communicate that in code
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raucao it's just "i'm attending this", not an action rsvp
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tantek do you have "i'm attending this" in the visible text of your site? or is it implied by a heading or such?
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raucao if it's possible to have rsvps without content (as it seems it is, according to sebsel's site), then i might forgo the other ones tho
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raucao it's only implied
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raucao but not strongly
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raucao just says "conferences" right now, but i can change that
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raucao was trying to come up with sth better anyway
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sebsel tantek, just before you joined: https://sebastian.kip.pe/ is the site
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Loqi Sebastian Kippe
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schmarty raucao: i currently show my upcoming events for which i have RSVP'd "yes" on my homepage as an h-feed of h-events. https://martymcgui.re/
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Loqi Marty McGuire
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raucao schmarty: cool
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raucao i think combining that with sebsel's data element might make sense
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raucao `<data class="p-rsvp" value="yes"></data>`
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raucao or not
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tantek raucao - implied in a list perhaps a good reason - though in that case, why bother marking up the RSVP at all since you're not expecting it to be consumed that way (in the presence of a list)
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tantek you migh as well just mark them up as events in a list
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tantek raucao - basically, you really should avoid invisible markup unless you have a REALLY good reason and solid understanding of WHY you are doing it
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raucao ok, thanks
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tantek and in particular, there MUST be a consuming code use-case
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tantek if not, then don't bother with it
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raucao well there is
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tantek no one consumes RSVPs in a list
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tantek so I'm curious to hear what you think would/does
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raucao you don't have to consume them in a list tho
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raucao it would be enough to send a webmention to the page
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tantek the use-case we are talking about is a list. if you have another use-case then we can discuss that separately
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raucao so yer, i'd tend to go with sebsel's approach
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raucao and no event list
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raucao sry /to the page/with the page url/
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sebsel note that my list of RSVP's is a list because it's a feed of h-entry:s, which are filtered to show only rsvp's.
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tantek sebsel's home page shows a list of events, not RSVPs
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tantek if all you're showing is event information, then it's a list of events, not RSVPs
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raucao it shows a list of rsvps
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tantek if however you are showing "i'm going to", "i'm interested in", "can't go to" etc., then it's a list of RSVPs
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sebsel my homepage shows a feed, https://seblog.nl/rsvp shows all rsvp's of that feed :)
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raucao my point is that in my case i communicate that i'm attending those, not just that the event exists
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tantek it's not an RSVP unless you're actually showing something that makes it an RSVP above and beyond an event
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raucao that would be the headline and the implied context
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raucao so an rsvp is required to appear in a feed?
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raucao i think not, right?
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tantek raucao - no, rather, markup is required to have a consuming code use-case, otherwise, don't do it
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tantek so if there is nothing consuming rsvps in a list or feed, then don't mark them up
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sebsel raucao I see you already have an explicit way to rsvp: https://updates.kip.pe/2017/-1
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Loqi [Sebastian Kippe] Yes: Finally a proper excuse for my yearly Portland visit.
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[chrisaldrich] Good morning indiewebs. Hello Loqi.
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raucao sebsel: yes, but i don't like it
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raucao tantek: not sure what you mean. if i mark them up as rsvp and send webmentions with that page as url, the reply-to would be enough to discern them, no?
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raucao so there is a consumer use case
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sebsel yes, but then the URL of your RSVP would be your homepage
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raucao yes
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raucao not possible?
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sebsel any post receives its own permalink
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raucao so rsvps are required to live on their own page?
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sebsel if you click on any of my RSVP's icons, you'll get to their own page
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tantek no because that page is not a permalink
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raucao yer, but why shouldn't that just be my homepage with the rsvp list?
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tantek because you are not your rsvps
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dougbeal Good Morning Indiewebs
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tantek and certainly you are not just a single rsvp
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tantek which is what the consuming code expects
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tantek it's like the difference between a tweet permalink and a twitter profile
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raucao it doesn't matter if i am my rsvps or not, the point is that before an event that page contains my rsvp data and afterwards it's still a valid backlink
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tantek but not a permalink by any reasonable definition
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sebsel what is permalink?
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Loqi A permalink is a URL which typically represents and retrieves a single post (also explicitly called a post permalink) https://indieweb.org/permalink
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sebsel that way you can talk about a post, because it has an identifier.
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sebsel point is: you can show it on your homepage! The first post on my homepage is an rsvp
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sebsel but it also lives on https://seblog.nl/2017/05/22/9/reply
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] Seb gaat misschien naar dit evenement.
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raucao but i don't want software to talk about my old rsvps after an event. if i'd unpublish the permalink that would surely be much worse than having a permanent personal website linked, no?
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sebsel the feed is marked up to show that url as the url of the RSVP.
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@jkphl Had the pleasure of giving a short interview about our @indiewebcamp last weekend. https://twitter.com/Lansyn/status/866683444524441600 (twitter.com/_/status/866689886845374464)
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raucao sebsel: also a good idea
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tantek raucao you removing an RSVP is basically saying, no I didn't really attend
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raucao so, in summary: if i want to show them as rsvps on my homepage, i shouldn't do that, because in the future that url will not contain my rsvp anymore
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raucao i think i understand the concerns
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raucao thank you again!
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tantek so if you're trying to say that, then sure, otherwise you're miscommunicating
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tantek your summary is a good one
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tantek but it still makes sense to show them as events on your home page
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tantek a bunch of folks do that (myself included)
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sebsel raucao A way of deleting your RSVP would be to return a HTTP 410 'Gone' header on the permalink, and then resend a webmention.
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sebsel but you need a permalink for that to work :)
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sebsel I don't know how many webmention receivers have implemented that, though.
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tantek sebsel - pretty sure that's in the implementation report
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tantek check out webmention.rocks - pretty sure you can find it linked from there
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sebsel yep! https://webmention.net/implementation-reports/summary/
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sebsel I have to get out of this train and the next one is without wifi
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@Lansyn @jkphl @indiewebcamp the other part will be online this week :) (twitter.com/_/status/866696135234244609)
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tantek good morning #indieweb
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[cleverdevil] Did a little Q&A with a guest blogger on owning your own data – https://www.dreamhost.com/blog/2017/05/22/own-your-online-content/
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schmarty nice to see so much encouragement to own your content on your own domain without diving into developer specifics
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[cleverdevil] Trying to get louder about the principles ?
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tantek wow after Indie Web Week - a quiet week of no IndieWeb related events
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Zegnat None?! :o That settles it, HWC at my place
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@webrocker <345 wondertom.de desktop greets from #indiewebcamp düsseldorfhttps://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/34658843412/in/album-72157680685498553 (twitter.com/_/status/866719723324665860)
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@webrocker <345 http://www.wondertom.de/ desktop greets from #indiewebcamp düsseldorf https://www.flickr.com/photos/tollwerk/34658843412/in/album-72157680685498553 (twitter.com/_/status/866720557953413120)
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miklb Zegnat I'll be right over
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miklb fwiw, vultr has the $2.50 vps open again
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miklb ping me for a affiliate link :-)
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Zegnat miklb, you are welcome. sebsel just cancelled so I have a bed free ;) hahaha
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Loqi Zegnat: lol
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miklb I'm guessing if I could swing that flight, IWS would be in the cards too
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Zegnat Where is miklb?
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Zegnat Hmm, I thought Loqi had been thought that one
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Zegnat s/thought/taught/
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miklb is in Tampa, FL US
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Zegnat I have had a friend nag me to go there. Intercontinental flights are not in my cards either though
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deathrow1|absnt what is rocket.chat?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rocket.chat" yet. Would you like to create it?
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deathrow1|absnt https://github.com/RocketChat
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deathrow1|absnt https://rocket.chat/
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KartikPrabhu how is this related to indieweb?
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deathrow1|absnt seems interesting as it is (for comparison) small enough to run on a rasperry pi 2/3 (excluding mongodb)
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gRegorLove miklb: What's vultr?
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miklb VPS hosting provider https://www.vultr.com
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miklb 1/2 cost of DO for same specs
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miklb I'm not running anything mission critical there
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miklb but haven't had any issue with my bot running on the platform yet
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miklb going to run a Jekyll site off of one of those now that they are open again
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gRegorLove Cool
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gRegorLove They closed registrations?
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gRegorLove Heh "Vultr Vultr is like AWS but simple." on /hosting
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miklb gRegorLove they were "out" for awhile after announcing those.
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miklb they had the larger plans still
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skippy the small plan is only available in Miami, for me.
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miklb ah
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tantek hey has anyone used Bridgy Publish to recently post a photo to FB / Flickr / Twitter?
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tantek seems to have stopped working for me3
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KartikPrabhu I did a Twitter photo POSSE just last night
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miklb I did last night
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tantek hmm will try unit testing
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gRegorLove Anything in the bridgy logs?
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tantek nothing
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[cleverdevil] Damn – https://github.com/nextcloud/news/issues/150 ?
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Loqi [BernhardPosselt] #150 Looking for new maintainers
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miklb indeed a bummer
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schmarty s/a bummer/an opportunity!/ :}
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miklb lol
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[cleverdevil] Its a great reader, honestly.
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[cleverdevil] Its become an essential part of my current workflow.
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miklb [cleverdevil] did you see News Explorer added jsonfeed today?
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[cleverdevil] I did see that.
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tantek what is News Explorer
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "News Explorer" yet. Would you like to create it?
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miklb found it interesting they were so quick to add to desktop app
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miklb News Explorer is a Mac desktop feed reader
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Loqi ok
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[cleverdevil] I mean, that's the beauty of JSONFeed.
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[cleverdevil] Its ridiculously simple.
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KartikPrabhu [cleverdevil]: give it time ;)
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[cleverdevil] (Slightly too simple at the moment, but that's beside the point).
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[cleverdevil] I like to see excitement around feeds again.
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[cleverdevil] Maybe it'll push for more movement in the reader space, too.
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schmarty [cleverdevil]: does NextCloud News support h-feed?
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[cleverdevil] I don't think so.
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tantek what is NextCloud
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Loqi Nextcloud is an open source software project for self-hosted personal web services including a file manager (an indie version of Dropbox), music, calendar (CalDAV), contacts (CardDAV), and more https://indieweb.org/Nextcloud
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ben_thatmustbeme basically it seems like a lot of devs don't want to include a parser
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ben_thatmustbeme this is why i think getting jsonfeed & jf2 unified would be really useful
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ben_thatmustbeme as you can publish a json equivalent that you don't have to maintain, it just links to an external service that will do the parsing for you
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ben_thatmustbeme either that or propose just straight up json version of parsed microformats as a competing verion
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ben_thatmustbeme version*
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gRegorLove What is JSONFeed?
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Loqi jsonfeed is jsonfeed.org https://indieweb.org/jsonfeed
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tantek wow Facebook's "Would you like to tag Person Name?" on photos has gotten really good
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[colinwalker] Frustrating - 'save_post' doesn't appear to get triggered when posting to WordPress using Workflow.
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miklb does Workflow use REST API?
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miklb either way, sounds like a bug on one end or the other
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[colinwalker] Not sure but it's annoying ?
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gRegorLove is reading http://inessential.com/2017/05/17/json_feed
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gRegorLove particularly the section about microformats
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gRegorLove The concerns / criticisms there have been pretty well answered already, I think.
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KevinMarks That's the bit I want to respond to, but don't want to bikeshed and put them off
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[cleverdevil] They're generally pretty pragmatic, I've found.
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Zegnat I think their argument comes mostly down to the fact they are application developers and JSON is part of their programming language, while XML and HTML require extra libraries to start parsing them. That’s how I read that, anyway.
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gRegorLove So they push the extra library usage to the publishers
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[cleverdevil] Sure, but, in their defense, its trivial to implement on *both* sides.
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snarfed right. (gRegorLove technically they're pushing sidefile maintenance to publishers, not library usage)
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skippy http://www.metafilter.com/167047/JSON-Feeds#7032349
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gRegorLove I disagree. Generating an entirely new feed file on my site is more difficult than consumers implementing one of the libraries already available
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gRegorLove The new feed file offers me no noticeable advantage currently, either
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tantek indeed
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schmarty so far i am only aware of one consumer of jsonfeed
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tantek burdening millions of publishers instead of a handful of consuming code implementations seems like the wrong trade-off and yet expected result of when consuming code implementations make a collective decision amongst themselves.
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skippy https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14360729
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skippy interesting discussion points at MeFi and HN.
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skippy sorry if y'all have already read all those. new to me.
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gRegorLove Haha "By tomorrow, technical recruiters will be seeking people with 7-10 years experience in this."
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Loqi gRegorLove: lol
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benwerd Good day, indieweb. I am here to complain about JSONfeed.
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 2017-03-31 at 7:08am UTC: did RSVP support break on Known event posts? My RSVP just shows up as "yes", and counts as a "comment" apparently. Seems confusing. http://werd.io/2017/homebrew-website-club-april-5-2017
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 2017-04-07 at 12:05am UTC: could you post the HWC SF 2017-04-05 photo? https://indieweb.org/events/2017-04-05-homebrew-website-club#Photos Thanks!
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Loqi benwerd: snarfed left you a message on 2017-04-22 at 10:12pm UTC: any chance you'd consider sharing the list of subdomains on hosted known for a community project?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 week, 2 days ago: what do you think of the merged HWC Where/venue and RSVPs e.g. here: https://indieweb.org/events/2017-05-17-homebrew-website-club#Where ?
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gRegorLove Timely, benwerd!
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: welcome! finally
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skippy would it be better to have those "X left you a message" be private messages?
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[cleverdevil] Hahah
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[cleverdevil] waves at benwerd
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benwerd skippy: nah, public shaming is fine with me
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benwerd waves at cleverdevil
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skippy fine with you, but noise for me, benwerd. :)
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benwerd ;)
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gRegorLove !tell benwerd no shame here, only indieweb love.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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benwerd <3 indieweb
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benwerd !<3 JSONfeed
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[cleverdevil] FWIW, I *did* implement JSONFeed in Known - https://cleverdevil.io/content/all/?_t=json
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[cleverdevil] ?
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GWG Afternoon
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benwerd <3 cleverdevil, too
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benwerd but seriously: if only there had been some other format for representing streams of activity in JSON
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[cleverdevil] No pull request, yet.
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benwerd I would accept it
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benwerd For sure
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benwerd But I'm also annoyed by its existence
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benwerd Not the PR's existence
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benwerd but JSONfeed's existence
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benwerd clarifies
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: why?
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KartikPrabhu or rather what do you think is "annoying"
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Loqi [superfeedr] " @bsag have you looked at known for blog / posse needs? This post was written on my known instance & then possed to pnut. It does webmentions & micropub too, for indieweb kudos. " by Daniel Goldsmith on 2017-05-22 https://hylozoist.ascraeus.org/2017/bsag-have-you-looked-at-known-for-blog-posse-needs
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benwerd Using JSON is not annoying. I actually really like that. What I think is a little sad is that there were already formats for representing this kind of data
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KartikPrabhu benwerd: you mean like parsed h-feed or some other one?
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benwerd modern activity streams, for one, is json-first
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KartikPrabhu yes, that was the other example I could think pof
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KartikPrabhu anyway standards gonna standard
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KartikPrabhu https://xkcd.com/927/
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Loqi [XKCD] Standards https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
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benwerd now I'm wondering if I'm being a grouch
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[cleverdevil] https://github.com/idno/Known/pull/1761
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Loqi [cleverdevil] #1761 JSONFeed
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[cleverdevil] There you go Mister Grouchy.
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[cleverdevil] ?
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gRegorLove Haha
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KartikPrabhu s/emerging/proposed
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gRegorLove benwerd: There was some chat just before you arrived on JSONfeed, did you see that?
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benwerd no
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benwerd cleverdevil: :D I'll pull that in tonight
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gRegorLove Starts https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-05-22#t1495482940281000
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Loqi [miklb] [cleverdevil] did you see News Explorer added jsonfeed today?
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bear *another* feed format?
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bear just put me out of my misery now
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gRegorLove I think I had a similar internal reaction, benwerd, but tried not to sound grouchy about it. I don't think you sounded too grouchy, btw. (But maybe bias, heh)
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KartikPrabhu bear: or you can decide not to use it and live in peace
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bear I used to think that, except as someone who is supposed to be helping with python related tools for indieweb...
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KartikPrabhu bear: you don't have to make/maintain anything you don't use yourself
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KartikPrabhu if someone wants to make a JSONfeed thingie for python then can do it
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bear and as someone with some experience in the long view, if I don't pipe up and point out how NIH and anti-DRY this is, then ...
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KartikPrabhu bear: that you should do :)
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Zegnat So far there is only 1 consumer, so there is no rush, bear
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bear do then do the jsonfeed folks have a writeup of all the ways that other formats failed in what they want to implement
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bear oh? folks == 1
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KartikPrabhu bear:https://jsonfeed.org/version/1
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gRegorLove What is RSS Atom wars
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Loqi The RSS Atom wars (AKA "syndication wars") were a toxic plumbing debate about the merits of using Atom vs RSS that dragged-in and distracted numerous high level web technologists from 2003-2007 while social silos (Facebook, Flickr, Twitter, etc.) emerged, rapidly innovated UX, and thus gained popular adoption https://indieweb.org/RSS_Atom_wars
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KartikPrabhu bear: so far the only "reason" is the following line "Developers may groan at picking up an XML parser, but decoding JSON is often just a single line of code." in the draft spec
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sknebel I'm curious to see who adopts it. It would be a good thing if it lead to more feeds being available, but I wouldn't be surprised if its going to be primarily on sites that already have good feeds. And the long-tail of sites with RSS/Atom in various stages of brokenness that's probably the main challenge for /readers isn't going to change presumably?
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Zegnat Well, I am not staying up for this conversation. Have a good night all!
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bear bah - as much as I myself don't like parsing XML (chew on that a bit)... the "it's JSON so it's *easier* to handle" is a strawman
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sknebel Zegnat: good idea, good night!
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: the brokeness of RSS/Atom is due to having sidefiles and I don't think JSONfeed helps there
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bear but yea, i'm just going to get some popcorn and start taking bets on how many weeks this YATFF lasts
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Zegnat bear, definitely a strawman, considering the problems with JSON parsing: http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php
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Zegnat JSON << http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php
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Loqi ok, I added "http://seriot.ch/parsing_json.php" to the "See Also" section of /JSON
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sknebel KartikPrabhu: that's part of the problem, but not the only one. e.g. I follow feeds that don't properly link their posts in the feed, mess their timestamps up, I bet in the ducts below there are tons of issues with caching, ... all of which you could break in an embedded feed just as much
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[cleverdevil] Ideally, these folks would have just adopted something that already exists, and bring attention to it.
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gRegorLove By embedded feed, do you mean in HTML?
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[cleverdevil] But, that doesn't seem to be in the cards.
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sknebel gRegorLove: yes
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: sure but they are visible on the webpage and so easier to catch/fix
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gRegorLove They can break as easily, but are much easier to notice since it's visible.
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gRegorLove Yeah, what KartikPrabhu said. :)
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KartikPrabhu basically WWTD
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KartikPrabhu ;)
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sknebel partially. I mean, here we see people mess up on what to put the h-entry or various properties, that's also only visible if it breaks bridgy or you look at it through a parser. But it certainly helps!
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: also you only have to fix it one place
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KartikPrabhu if I break my Atomfeed it is probably due to a broken h-feed and I only have to fix the h-feed
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KartikPrabhu today in JS frameworks -- https://twitter.com/brad_frost/status/866769542877523968
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@brad_frost Hey React people, I'm commenting closing tags (like a good dev), but JSX comments throw an error for the outermost tag. // comments work. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DAdhhdgXsAEHR9y.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/866769542877523968)
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GWG snarfed: Looked at the debate on Post Kinds vs Micropub Rendering
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snarfed hey, i saw
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GWG snarfed: Post Kinds is a UI for creating Microformats. As is a Micropub server. Is it worth exploring the idea of writing a rendering plugin that is independent of either?
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snarfed right, i saw you asked that in the issue. i'll weigh in soon!
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GWG Ok
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miklb where was that debate?
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GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/SemPress/issues/51#issuecomment-303151049
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Loqi [snarfed] another problem: micropub renders at write time, into post_content, but sempress and post kinds (i think) render to HTML at page load time. so, when a post is created, if post kinds doesn't support a property but micropub does, micropub will generat...
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miklb GWG the kind-photo view I sent a pull request adds the photos to posts using `$meta->get( 'photo' )`
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miklb fwiw
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miklb unless I am misreading the issue thread
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miklb One thing w/ OYG, if not using the json format, then it doesn't upload a photo to the media library, it just passes the IG url and gets stored in mf2_photo
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GWG miklb: It has generated a broader discussion.
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miklb hmm. I see. My vote would be to leave it to plugins/themes to do all rendering
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GWG miklb: But Micropub and Post Kinds appear to be competing for that
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miklb Post Kinds renders with a template that can be customized. Micropub wants to insert HTML into the post, correct?
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GWG miklb: Two different approaches
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miklb yes, but one can easily be over ridden, the other, where markup is hardcoded into the post content, not so much