#indieweb

2011-06-28

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tantek
brennannovak - were you talking about how to cite the source or canonical version of a post?
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tantek
Atom has rel-via - which we may want to define for use in HTML.
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brennannovak
tantek: yes, but more so in regards to the ActivityStream verb
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tantek
which verb?
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brennannovak
currently the spec seems to suggest "post" or "update" when creating new content on a site
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Loqi
[http://twitter.com/grigs] @evanpro missed you at indiewebcamp last weekend. are you coming to town for OSCON?
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brennannovak
but neither really apply when archiving or ingesting all my data from a source like flickr, etc...
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brennannovak
aaronpk and I were thinking about proposing a new verb type "repost" thoughts?
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tantek
brennannovak - first, to be clear, verbs are inappropriate for rel values. rel values must be nouns. http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq#How_is_rel_used
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brennannovak
right, this is not for rel=
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tantek
ok cool
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tantek
so for activitystreams, since that came from Atom, they "respostness" of it would simply be indicated by the presence of a <link rel="via" href="originalURL" /> inside the <entry>
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tantek
s/they/the
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tantek
no need to reinvent that mechanism from Atom
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tantek
unless I'm missing something
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brennannovak
hrm ok
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brennannovak
one sec
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tantek
there was also the <source> element
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brennannovak
See this activity stream spec http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/1.0/#examples
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brennannovak
see the verb: "post"
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brennannovak
I'm referring to the feed which is generated (then re-consumed elsewhere)
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brennannovak
or here
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brennannovak
http://activitystrea.ms/specs/atom/1.0/#examples
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brennannovak
<activity:verb>post</activity:verb>
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aaronpk
catching up on backlog...
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tantek
hmm...
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brennannovak
tantek: does that make sense?
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tantek
looks like "via" really means more of a credit where found thing rather than "original"
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tantek
so that's insufficient
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aaronpk
right, so if twitter or buzz were to consume tantek's stream from tantek.com, what verb would they use for the activity?
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tantek
I mean, rel="via" would be a true assertion on a source URL
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tantek
however it would be insufficient to imply that the rel-via link *is* the source of the post
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tantek
e.g. http://www.xml.com/lpt/a/1434
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tantek
ah yes
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tantek
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4287.txt
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tantek
4.2.11. The "atom:source" Element
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tantek
I believe that's how you're supposed to indicate reposts
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tantek
aaronpk - no verb necessary other than the implied "post" verb - however they must include a nested <source> element that indicates where the original post came from
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aaronpk
I suppose if the original activity had a verb other than post, then it would make sense to keep that same verb rather than change it to "repost"
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tantek
brennannovak - the problem is that any activity could have been posted *somewhere else* and the current stream may just be reposting it. thus something like a "source" element or JSON property for the new AS makes more sense
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tantek
huh - just noticed it's raining in SF - ok - back to random unexpected weather then.
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aaronpk
heh, nice and grey and partially rainy in portland today too
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tantek
brennannovak - I found some previous discussion here - probably worth checking it out: http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/page/1359243/Cross-Posting
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brennannovak
right, I suppose I feel more with Activity Streams than Atom and my suggestion would be that content originally uploaded to Flickr (or anywhere) would considered a "post" verb ---> once ingested to my site it would be a "repost" and then any additional sites that consume my feed would also be a "repost"
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tantek
see also:
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tantek
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:F4JZo0244ZkJ:martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/atomcrosspost
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tantek
looks like "crosspost" is how this was described previously
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tantek
crosspost makes more sense to me to imply *across* multiple sites
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tantek
whereas repost implies it might actually be a repost on the same site
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tantek
"re" just meaning "repeat" here
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shaners
whoa. the channel is actually be used by humans, not just wiki bots
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aaronpk
the humans were too busy talking to each other over the weekend to also talk on irc :)
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brennannovak
hehe
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brennannovak
tantek: gotcha I see... makes sense. So even tho that example on the cross posting page does not make mention of <activity:verb> I should just consider it a "post"
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tantek
right
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tantek
I think any "verb" could be crossposted - which is the challenge
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brennannovak
okie doke! full steam ahead!
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tantek
I don't like the implementation of the crosspost extension (namespaces etc.)
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tantek
but do think something similar should be figured out for the AS JSON
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tantek
hence I'd start with the wiki: http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/page/1359243/Cross-Posting
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tantek
and feel free to edit/make proposals there
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brennannovak
is the best place to propose things in the Google Group?
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tantek
brennannovak - I would write it up on the wiki first
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brennannovak
the indie web wiki?
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tantek
I like the indiewebcamp.com wiki URLs better (shorter, self-hosted) rather than activitystreams (longer due to being hosted on pbwiki)
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tantek
yeah
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tantek
it's more indie
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tantek
indiewebcamp.com's wiki is on a server controlled by an individual rather than a corp
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tantek
activitystreams' wiki is just a mapping of a hosted solution by pbworks.com
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tantek
this is cool: http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=indiewebcamp+OR+indieweb&ss=2&s=rec
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tantek
aaronpk - amber and I had discussed where/how the IRC logs should/could be published
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tantek
and she suggested merely publishing them on the wiki
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tantek
which could make sense - perhaps as read-only or admin-write-only pages
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caseorganic
yeah - as a log
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tantek
hey caseorganic! :)
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caseorganic
hey tantek!
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caseorganic
i'm a lurker.
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caseorganic
i like the idea of putting everything in the same place -- logs, notes, etc. even photos of the sessions copied into the wiki from flickr with a citation of where they came from.
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tantek
caseorganic - I noticed you created a second "why" page
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tantek
did you miss the "Why" page?
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caseorganic
haha
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caseorganic
yes!
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Loqi
rofl
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caseorganic
the question is, why did i miss the why page?
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tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/Why
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caseorganic
i'll you know why?
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caseorganic
because one was capitalized
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caseorganic
and the other wasn't
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tantek
I didn't realize our mediawiki install was customized to allow non-capital starting pages
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caseorganic
thus, i saw a red link on the first one
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caseorganic
and filled it in.
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tantek
where was there a red link?
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caseorganic
yes
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caseorganic
for why vs. Why
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tantek
usually mediawiki redirects why to Why
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caseorganic
correct
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caseorganic
th
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caseorganic
that's what i assumed, and was surprised, so filled it in
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caseorganic
i'll merge the changes
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tantek
ah
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aaronpk
I made it case sensitive to support the openid logins
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tantek
yes feel free to add to the Why page
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caseorganic
ah ha! got it!
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tantek
aaronpk - great
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dbounds1
Nice. There's actual conversation happening here.
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caseorganic
Yes! Hello!
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tantek
ok I just sent the Activitiy-Streams list a note inviting them to use our IRC channel since they don't have one (lol)
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tantek
and since we're discussing activity streams stuff
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caseorganic
great.
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tantek
IMHO activity streams are a core component of enabling/empowering/deploying the indie web
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+4) (view diff)
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tantek
so we can include all that conversation here no problem
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dbounds1
I'm not sure too many would dispute that.
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tantek
plus they don't have an IRC channel, and we (deliberately) don't have a mailing list.
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tantek
you know what was not discussed at all (from what I remember) this past weekend?
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tantek
(and thus indicates that maybe it is both unnecessary and no one cares in practice - that is - on their own indie web sites)
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tantek
any guesses?
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aaronpk
checkins?
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tantek
I discussed geo checkins in my publish then syndicate discussion
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aaronpk
oh right
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aaronpk
photos?
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aaronpk
i give up
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aaronpk
tell us!
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tantek
um - the whole Flickr back up / syndicate to Flick project!
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tantek
ok I'll give you a hint
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tantek
CamelCase
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tantek
two words
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caseorganic
CamelCase!
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tantek
:)
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caseorganic
I remember mentioning that
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caseorganic
but not as a general topic
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tantek
first word: "Web"
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tantek
second word: "Finger"
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aaronpk
WebFinger?
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caseorganic
WebFinger
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aaronpk
ah yea
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tantek
The IndieWeb does not care about WebFinger - because it doesn't need it.
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dbounds1
What makes you say that?
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caseorganic
This should also be a wiki page.
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tantek
because it wasn't even *mentioned* the entire weekend.
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caseorganic
edited /Why (+781) (view diff)
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brennannovak
I whole heartedly agree with tantek about activity streams
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tantek
it turns out, when you focus on actual pragmatic/practical discussions of what *you* need to build/code/ux/design for *your* indie web site, people DO NOT CARE about WebFinger
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caseorganic
edited /Why (-5) (view diff)
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tantek
they *so* don't care that it doesn't even come up
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tantek
dbounds1 - thus I'm fairly convinced that WebFinger is pretty much a waste of time
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aaronpk
CamelCase: http://aaron.pk/snip/2011-06-28_1039.png
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dbounds1
webfinger or discovery in general?
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tantek
oh we did plenty of work on discovery
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tantek
just turns out none of it needed webfinger
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tantek
you know what else was not mentioned the entire weekend?
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tantek
XRDS
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dbounds1
is any of this discovery conversation documented?
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brennannovak
tantek: hrm... I kinda feel web finger (or the whole OStatus stack) wasn't discussed much all weekend because everyone was talking about different dimensions of what the "indie web" means
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evanpro
Woooo
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aaronpk
evan! hi!
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+183) (view diff)
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dbounds1
Personally, I'm not interested in anything that leverages XML. ;)
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caseorganic
Hello, Evan!
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evanpro
tantek: just saw your post to activitystrea.ms
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evanpro
dbounds1: yo
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dbounds1
yo evan
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tantek
brennannovak - nope, it was because we were focused on *actual* practical solutions for *ourselves*
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caseorganic
created /XRDS (+113) "Created page with 'June 28, 2011 [10:40am] tantek: you know what else was not mentioned the entire weekend? [10:40am] tantek: XRDS'" (view diff)
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brennannovak
true
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tantek
rather than architectures for theoretical needs of the masses
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tantek
which is what nearly all other groups in this space are hung-up on
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tantek
caseorganic - lol
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dbounds1
Depending on what you're building XRD/JRD and WebFinger are quite useful. I'd be interested in hearing what alternatives were proposed / suggested / used from the weekend.
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brennannovak
yes, that is what I mean... we all were just focusing on our own implementations- which seem to be more about consuming / posting to large sites like Twitter / Facebook already
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tantek
and welcome evanpro
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apparentlymart
ahoy
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tantek
brennannovak - we were prioritizing in personal and practical ways.
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brennannovak
yes, whoot!
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tantek
and it turns out, when you do that, such things as XRD/WebFinger are actually not necessary
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tantek
or rather
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tantek
there's more important practical work to be done *first*
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brennannovak
precisely
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tantek
when you get around to actually building a site that *YOU* will use for YOURSELF
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voxpelli
sounds like a great approach
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tantek
evanpro - definitely missed you this weekend
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caseorganic
created /WebFinger (+2410) "Created page with 'June 28, 2011 [10:38am] tantek: The IndieWeb does not care about WebFinger - because it doesn't need it. [10:38am] dbounds1: What makes you say that? [10:38am] tantek: becaus…'" (view diff)
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evanpro
tantek: sorry I missed it!
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tantek
some amazing things got built / designed
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caseorganic
edited /Why (+1) (view diff)
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caseorganic
edited /XRDS (+30) (view diff)
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+37) (view diff)
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dbounds1
If the 'indieweb' is only about you interacting with the existing, centralized social web then perhaps XRD and WebFinger don't have a part to play. However, if it's more than that and also involves discovery and interaction with other indieweb resources in a federated way it seems they actually play quite a bit part.
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dbounds1
s/bit/big/
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tantek
dbounds1 your assertion of " actually play quite a bit part" is not backed up by actual implementations being used by actual individuals on their indiewebsites
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tantek
and no - we did talk about indieweb <-> indieweb interactions this weekend
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tantek
in particular - with web intents
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dbounds1
well, that could be said for federated social web entities in general
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tantek
being on indieweb site 1 and being able to click a "favorite" button next to a post, and have that "favoriting" go on indieweb site 2 (where the user is presumably logged into their own site)
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tantek
and yeah - previous discussions have over-emphasized federation - when that's not the most important thing that indieweb site users/builders care about
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tantek
they care about staying in touch with their friends
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dbounds1
myself personally, I don't want to need to leave my indieweb site in order to need to interact with social content on another indieweb site.
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tantek
dbounds1 - can you describe that as a specific use-case the way I did?
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tantek
designing by the negative rarely yields anything useful
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dbounds1
Something as simple as clicking an @mention in a note or status update.
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dbounds1
I want to be able to link to a local resource on my indieweb site that can retrieve all of the necessary data from the remote indieweb resource the @mention'd user exists to display it in the context of my own website.
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Loqi
[http://twitter.com/tracyshaun] own the data your create. syndicate to 3rd party silos. IndieWeb FTW: http://t.co/m81ixqi << awesome notes & write-ups
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dbounds1
XRD and WebFinger are necessary for that to occur
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tantek
nope
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tantek
dbounds1 - a mentioned user is merely a URL
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tantek
at that URL you have an hCard - photo, name etc.
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tantek
done
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Caseorganic * uploaded "[[File:indie-web-camp.png]]"
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tantek
zero XRD and WebFinger necessary
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tantek
this is the point
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tantek
when you actually get down to building this stuff for yourself
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tantek
you build the cheapest simplest thing possible
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dbounds1
That seems somewhat inefficient and also imposes quite a few requirements on the remote site
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+137) (view diff)
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voxpelli
tantek: but one doesn't exclude the other - right?
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tantek
and that turns out to be leverage extremely simple existing work
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tantek
URLs and microformats are ever-present on the web
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+0) (view diff)
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tantek
so why bother with what you don't need?
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tantek
dbounds1 - "seems" inefficient? you have no data
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tantek
"impose requirements"? no - we are leveraging existing publishing patterns
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tantek
people have indie web sites
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tantek
people have their hCard on their indie web sites
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dbounds1
If you're going to require the remote URL include microformats in the markup, why not just require mandatory JSON resources that expose the same information in a more condensed format.
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tantek
this isn't a "requirement"
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tantek
it's a "here's what people already do today"
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tantek
and guess what
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tantek
it's MUCH easier/simpler to post an hCard
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tantek
than support XRD/WebFinger
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tantek
on your indie web site
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tantek
dbounds1. hidden metadata. DRY.
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pfefferle
but there are still problems like the representative hcard http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard
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tantek
pfefferle - s/problems/solutions
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dbounds1
XRD and WebFinger allow for a more flexible resource structure that's easily and consistently discoverable.
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tantek
more flexible for *whom*
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dbounds1
for the remote URL
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tantek
need for that flexibility is unproven
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tantek
that's part of the point of what happens when you actually sit down to build this stuff
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voxpelli
that a microformat isn't tied to the url can be a problem sometimes
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tantek
such theoretical assertions of "need" and "flexible" DONT EVEN COME UP
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tantek
when you're actually building
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voxpelli
we've run into that on Flattr when modelling our discovery mechanisms
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dbounds1
sure, and if that flexibility is not needed, there are more compact ways to define the information at predictable URLs relative to the remote URL
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tantek
voxpelli - back that up with a specific URL of *yours* with a specific use-case
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tantek
otherwise - who cares
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voxpelli
tantek: most WordPress blogs has (only) XFN in blog rolls - and we need to know who owns a url so we can know who to give a donation to
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tantek
donations - check out tipjar and http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-payment
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tantek
ah yes
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tantek
more theoretical examples that DID NOT COME UP THIS WEEKEND:
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dbounds1
Example: http://dbounds.glow.io/profile/json?format=json
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tantek
* donations
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tantek
* tipjars
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tantek
turns out - those are not a priority
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tantek
so this really is a big exercise is real world prioritization
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tantek
the problems you're worrying about - are not important to the indie web
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tantek
dbounds1 - that's a bunch of JSON - I would never browse to that
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Caseorganic * uploaded "[[File:flickr-backup-session.png]]"
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tantek
nor send a user to it
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dbounds1
You dont' browse to that
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dbounds1
you don't need to browse to that and that's the point.
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tantek
that was another big difference of this weekend
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tantek
every single discussion started with a user-centric use-case
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dbounds1
I don't want to leave the context of my indieweb site to view and/or interact with that data.
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah - I understand that
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tantek
dbounds1 - see about about negative reasoning
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tantek
see *above*
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Caseorganic * uploaded "[[File:flickr-backup-aaronpk-brennannovak.png]]"
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tantek
repost: [10:52] dbounds1 - can you describe that as a specific use-case the way I did?
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tantek
[10:52] tantek: designing by the negative rarely yields anything useful
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dbounds1
Ok. As I described, I want to remain in the context of my website when interacting with and discovery content from around the indieweb.
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tantek
that's not a use-case, that's a "want"
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dbounds1
Yes, I can discover that remove information by parsing a URL extracting the microformats/microdata/etc but if we're avoiding XRD/WebFinger imposing a structure on the remote URL resource we might as well just define a dictionary of remote resources that expose the information in purely machine readable formats.
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tantek
no because that violates visible data and DRY.
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caseorganic
:)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Caseorganic * uploaded "[[File:brennannovak-sings-a-tune.png]]"
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dbounds1
That's the way the social web works today and in order to compete with closed experiences we need to build a system that can support those interactions in elegant ways.
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tantek
every time you say "purely machine readable format" you're probably making a mistake, specifically, because of the "purely"
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apparentlymart
I think the biggest disconnect in this discussion is that tantek wants to build his own indie site in spite of the rest of the web, exploiting work others already did rather than making them do new work
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dbounds1
Ok, I mean machine first, human second.
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tantek
dbounds1 - I think you may be mistaken about how web intents work
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apparentlymart
which I'd agree is a good bootstrapping technique
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tantek
because they allow that kind of interaction
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apparentlymart
but dbounds1 is imagining a world where everyone works together to solve the problem
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apparentlymart
so both producer and consumer are willing to put some additional work in to make it happen
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tantek
apparentlymart - solutions that have succeeded have always been built that way - not by imagining the ideal world
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dbounds1
not everyone necessarily but a single system/product.
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tantek
but by building for yourself first, within existing behaviors
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tantek
and deployed technologies
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Caseorganic * uploaded "[[File:brian-ledger-session.png]]"
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tantek
apparentlymart - yeah the "both producer and consumer are willing to put some additional work" is too high a barrier for rapid progress. c.f. the WebID folks.
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apparentlymart
in order for that situation to arise, the producer needs to be of high enough value that the consumer is willing to chase the tail of the producer
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apparentlymart
which is the situation for Facebook, Twitter.
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apparentlymart
in this world really only the market leaders can be leaders
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apparentlymart
and everyone else has to put up with what they get
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tantek
edited /Main_Page (+307) "add photos, remove things no-one cared about at IndieWebCamp 2011 (will find another spot)" (view diff)
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apparentlymart
which is probably really the case, but some of us have higher aspirations :)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Caseorganic * uploaded "[[File:indie-web-camp-2011-with-large-aaronpk.png]]"
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caseorganic
created /Classof2011 (+794) "Created page with '[[http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/5871635426/ @aaronpk" target="_blank">Image:indie-web-camp-2011-with-large-aaronpk.png|center|600px|thumb|Indie Web Camp Class of 2011 by [http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/5871635426/ @aaronpk]]] [[Image:flick…'" (view diff)
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tantek
edited /Issues (+104) "undiscussed" (view diff)
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tantek
created /Undiscussed-2011 (+225) "drafted" (view diff)
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tantek
apparentlymart - I assert we're not going to reach those higher aspirations without first being practical today, for ourselves.
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apparentlymart
totally agreed
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tantek
until then such "higher aspirations" are a distraction
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apparentlymart
I build tightly coupled solutions in order to learn how to generalize
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+33) (view diff)
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tantek
and that's the problem I have with most dialogs in this larger "space" of identity/federation etc.
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tantek
right
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tantek
practical simple one-off solutions today are what teach us how to generalize
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tantek
building that is
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tantek
not writing on white-boards and email-lists
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tantek
ahem
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dbounds1
So basically just build an integration in your (micro)blog to syndicate out to Twitter and Facebook and we're all set?
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tantek
you're never "all set"
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tantek
"it's like fashion"
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tantek
;)
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aaronpk
official group photo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/5881894938/in/pool-1674979@N25/
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tantek
thanks aaronpk - nice job with the photoshop :)
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brennannovak
oh wow, nice!
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tantek
dbounds1 - it's a matter of prioritization. Interacting with friends matters more than federation. Thus that must shape the prioritization for indie web efforts.
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tantek
human-centric design rather than architectural-principle-centric design
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brennannovak
word!
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apparentlymart
of course the beauty of indie web is that each individual can decide what to prioritize :)
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tantek
apparentlymart - precisely :)
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brennannovak
w00t
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Loqi
giggles
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tantek
build for yourself the solution that you want, and share it
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DawnFoster
do bots giggle?
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DawnFoster
the bots are taking over the world
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voxpelli
do you see companies being part of the indie web as well?
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apparentlymart
if they want to host their own presence on the web then sure
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brennannovak
voxpelli: in some peoples solutions- most certainly.
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apparentlymart
although maybe I misread what you meant by "part of the indie web" :)
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brennannovak
my platform, that is my prime objective at first
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tantek
edited /Undiscussed-2011 (+24) "donations, tip-jars" (view diff)
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tantek
I think apparentlymart has it right
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voxpelli
apparentlymart: like someone wanting to help create a new platform
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tantek
yes a company being "on the indieweb" would be self-hosting / owning its own content, just as an individual would
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voxpelli
I'm thinking more like a Automattic kind of company - doing a Wordpress kind of thing
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apparentlymart
I read "indie web" to mean "hosting your own stuff", so if you're providing a platform for others to host their own stuff then you're probably not doing that
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brennannovak
ah I misunderstood, but, yes
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tantek
Wordpress.org - a tool that folks can deploy on the indie web.
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apparentlymart
but of course the definition of "hosting" will probably change over time
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tantek
Wordpress.com - hosted content. not part of the indie web.
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voxpelli
do you imagine a future where everyone hosts their own content?
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apparentlymart
If I use Flickr to share my photos but the files themselves are actually stored on a server I own then that's a slightly different idea of hosting that I think still hits some of the indie web use-cases
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apparentlymart
you own your own data but let a company present it for you
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voxpelli
apparentlymart: that sounds like http://www.unhosted.org/
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apparentlymart
That seems to be the vision behind camlistore
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dbounds1
S3 - hosted content. not part of the indie web?
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apparentlymart
again, that's where we need to be liberal in how "hosted" is defined :)
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tantek
dbounds1 - depends if you reveal the S3 URLs or not
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voxpelli
if "hosted" means that someone else pays the server bill then that's a rather limited approach
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apparentlymart
I mean, I don't have a server in my apartment hooked up to my DSL but I still think things on my rented server are hosted by me
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tantek
if all your URLs to your images go through a domain mapping, then sure, use S3 on the backend
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tantek
or any other "cloud" storage service
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apparentlymart
I think it's more about owning your own presence
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tantek
right
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apparentlymart
regardless of the backend
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tantek
it starts with your own URL
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dbounds1
agreed.
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tantek
and then URLs to all your resources
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voxpelli
yeah - that makes sense - but in that way WordPress.com would be indie web?
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tantek
so that anyone browsing yourstuff sees URLs that you own and control
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tantek
no you don't own or control wordpress.com <-- the URL
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apparentlymart
if I point my own domain at a WordPress.com blog then that's better than my blog being at foo.wordpress.com
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tantek
apparentlymart - yes, that's the very first step to getting on the indieweb
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tantek
then you have to worry about persisting the permalink structure that *they* impose on you
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tantek
once you move your content from wordpress.com to your own server etc.
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voxpelli
tantek: I meant for those buying their own domains
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tantek
same problem with tumblr.com domain mapping
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voxpelli
the permalink poblem is solved as long as they provide an export - which I guess wordpress does
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tantek
it's a step towards an indie web site yes
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tantek
but you're still vulnerable to their failures
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dbounds1
In the case of Glow, you run/own the machine and the content resides in your own data store that's managed by you, but the hostname itself dbounds.glow.io is managed by a central entity.
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tantek
and their TOS
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tantek
etc.
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apparentlymart
for a while I persisted the LiveJournal URL scheme on my blog after I moved it away from LiveJournal, but eventually I gave up and broke the links
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tantek
their censorship
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apparentlymart
so it's definitely trickier to start off with one platform and move to another
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apparentlymart
or to self-hosted
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tantek
apparentlymart - exactly - that's the problem with domain mapping to a hosting service
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tantek
this should be in an FAQ
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tantek
Is mapping your personal domain to wordpress.com or tumblr.com enough to be on the indie web?
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apparentlymart
but the same issue -- to a lesser extent, perhaps -- applies if you run someone else's software on your own server
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tantek
apparentlymart - similar but not same issue
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apparentlymart
If I switch from Movable Type to WordPress it can be hard to preserve the links that Movable Type minted
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tantek
with someone else's (presumably open source) software, you can *configure* the permalink URL design
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voxpelli
any software not providing a good exporting mechanism looks you in
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tantek
whereas with a hosted service you have *no choice*
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apparentlymart
indeed
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tantek
that's an important distinction
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voxpelli
tantek: you can change permalinks if the provider allows you to
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voxpelli
tantek: I guess eg http://www.drupalgardens.com/ allows that
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tantek
voxpelli - no provider I know of does
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apparentlymart
so it seems that hacking your own stuff -- even if it's just tweaking someone else's code -- is part of indie web as far as you're concerned
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tantek
oh interesting - that's an exception then
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tantek
good to know
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voxpelli
Drupal Gardens also allows you to export your entire site - including the code and sql database
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tantek
"hacking your own stuff " is the side-effect
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tantek
own your presence as you said is the key
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tantek
which means
#
tantek
your URL
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tantek
your shortlink URL
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tantek
your permalinks
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tantek
and your content
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apparentlymart
TypePad was actually designed to allow arbitrary URL structures, but that kinda fell by the wayside for product reasons
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tantek
if any of those are compromised, then you're less "indie"
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voxpelli
but - does this means that the indie web is mostly relevant in content heavy sites?
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apparentlymart
The system actually supports redirecting arbitrary URLs to new places
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apparentlymart
it's a shame it's not really exposed in the product :(
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tantek
apparentlymart - yeah. :/
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tantek
voxpelli - for practical purposes today, it appears to be
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tantek
people like to post content
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apparentlymart
I think I implicitly read "indie web" as "indie social web"
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voxpelli
that's actually pretty interesting
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apparentlymart
and for me the social web is primarily about content
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apparentlymart
(where content is defined in the loosest possible sense)
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tantek
apparentlymart - one aspect of dropping "social" from the naming is that interesting projects got conceived (and partially built!) like the Federated Wiki
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voxpelli
because my conclusion form the federated social web conference earlier this year in berlin was that URL:s was barely ever mentioned there
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tantek
if you're not mentioning URLs then you're not on the web :)
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dbounds1
I've noticed recently that some photo sharing services like PicPlz have enabled for auto-syncing of content to your DropBox or S3 account. If a service like that allowed for you to also customize with your own domain name with trickle down into permalinks and shortened URLs, that seems like it would be satisfactory.
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lmorchard
I had a notion to throw together a lightning talk along the lines of "DNS as homeownership on the web" - talk about controlling your URL space and services like github, tumblr, and posterous who can respond to CNAMEs from your own domain
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tantek
oh and what got built out of the FSW Conf in Berlin? nothing.
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lmorchard
waves, also.
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voxpelli
So while the indie web as you describe it is very URL and content orientated - the federated social web as described during that conference is more activity oriented and therefor less URL oriented
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tantek
lmorchard - sorry to miss you this weekend.
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tantek
if it doesn't have a URL, it's not on the web
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lmorchard
Yeah, I wanted to make it, but we had team building to do
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tantek
voxpelli - it sounds like from what you're describing that the FSW conf was more about a Federated Social Internet - not Web
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lmorchard
but at least we have IRC
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tantek
which is sad to hear
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tantek
because it means the FSW crowd is even more off the rails now than I thought :(
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apparentlymart
"activities" are interesting because they are more like "reciepts" for content rather than content in their own right
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apparentlymart
at least in some systems
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voxpelli
tantek: one could also say that it's not about documents but rather about document fragments
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voxpelli
tantek: but parts of it certainly wasn't related to the web - I agree
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apparentlymart
Lots of systems don't give an activity its own permalink, for example
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tantek
apparentlymart - I think in practice systems *do* give activities permalinks just not always expose them in the site UI
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apparentlymart
I tend to think of an activity as being a unit of communication *about* objects that have URLs
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tantek
we've seen this when things "magically" get permalinks - even activities from the past - when there's a UI rev
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apparentlymart
So Facebook can present an activity that says I posted something on my blog
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brennannovak
tantek: is there an open codebase for Whistle or just a spec? I don't see it on your github or a link on your wiki
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apparentlymart
The activity is the bridge between the content on my blog and its manifestation on Facebook
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tantek
brennanovak - Whistle is fully implemented in CASSIS.js
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apparentlymart
although it's muddy on Facebook since once they have an activity they capture all of the interactions on it and don't feed them back to the source
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tantek
and I think I have like 5-6 lines of PHP that do a redirect
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apparentlymart
unless you do some extra work
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tantek
plus a line or two of .htaccess
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tantek
I need to package those up somehow
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brennannovak
I see
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brennannovak
so it's not storing short url's in a database
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tantek
apparentlymart - yes the Facebook example demonstrates why/how activities are nouns themselves.
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brennannovak
since it's algorithmic...
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tantek
basically, anything written is posted, and can be commented or liked
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tantek
brennannovak - exactly - no database
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brennannovak
interesting
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tantek
No database, no database tax.
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tantek
and much less URL fragility
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tantek
btw - domain mapping to a hosted provider still has all the problems mentioned here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Why except for identity (since using your domain usually obscures your username on the hosting service)
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aaronpk
initial version of IRC logs. not pretty, but can permalink to specific lines http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-28#t1309282911
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voxpelli
tantek: some of those things could be solved by backups mechanisms - other issues are also present in opensource software or other software built or controlled by others. Also - some issues are inherent to hosting. Right+
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tantek
edited /Main_Page (-29) "discussions - contribute. discuss on IRC, capture on the wiki." (view diff)
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tantek
voxpelli - no, backup mechanisms DO NOT solve those issues because you lose your URLs.
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brennannovak
should other Indie Web projects (that were not at the camp) be posted on the projects page?
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voxpelli
tantek: assuming you don't own your own domain
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tantek
brennannovak - yes
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tantek
the Projects page pre-dates the camp
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brennannovak
even people who are not active per se?
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tantek
brennannovak - feel free to capture inactive projects as well in an Inactive section
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tantek
better to document them appropriately than have people waste time
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brennannovak
good thinking
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tantek
if the list gets too long we can move to Projects-Inactive
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tantek
voxpelli - backups still don't solve it even if you own your own domain. when tumblr.com was down, your stuff didn't get served. didn't matter if you had it backed up.
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tantek
links broke
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brennannovak
does anyone else still get the following error when logging into the wiki? "Warning: array_key_exists() expects parameter 2 to be array, null given in /web/sites/mediawiki/extensions/OpenID/SpecialOpenIDLogin.body.php on line 519"
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voxpelli
tantek: that's due to the dns not redirecting properly then
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tantek
redirecting to what?
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tantek
backups are insufficient
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tantek
you're just making stuff up
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tantek
if you have a solution, describe it
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tantek
"backups" is not a solution
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tantek
and doesn't "solve" anything
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voxpelli
tantek: if my self-hosted site goes down - then I will have the exact same problems restoring a backup as I would have restoring it from a hosted system - right?
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tantek
brennannovak - could you capture that error with a screenshot perhaps? someone could then add it to: http://indiewebcamp.com/Issues
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tantek
voxpelli - not same problem no
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voxpelli
tantek: what would the difference be?
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aaronpk
brennannovak: also note what openid provider your'e using
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tantek
if you have a self-hosted site, you've already figured out and done the setup
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tantek
hosted site goes down. you have to go figure out and *build* your system.
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tantek
which is non-trivial
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tantek
because that's what we're all trying to do now!
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voxpelli
that assumes that there's no standard format of the export
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tantek
build indie web sites :)
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voxpelli
if the export is a rss feed or a hAtom document then you could import it into anything and it would work
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tantek
no solutions restore your permalinks
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tantek
if you have a specific scenario you think works, state it
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tantek
e.g. export from service A, install software B, import
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tantek
otherwise no
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tantek
experience has shown that "backup" is insufficient
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tantek
at a minimum, you lose your permalinks
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voxpelli
permalinks are stored in the exort - I owm my domain - I could restore the permalinks through something as simple as a .htaccess?
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tantek
if you're saying "simple" and ".htaccess" in the same sentence then either you don't understand the full extent of the problem, or you're assuming far too much special technical knowledge on the part of people who want indie web sites.
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tantek
and this is from someone who *does* edit his own .htaccess (it's not simple)
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tantek
so no - you just keep asking questions rather than actually describing a solution
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tantek
if you have a solution, I suggest you blog it
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tantek
and then those that are interested in it can try it and report issues
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voxpelli
I'm asking questions to better understand the issue you're trying to solve - I can't solve an issue I don't understand clearly ;)
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tantek
having your stuff go offline
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tantek
it's that simple
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tantek
every question you ask is you figuring out how to solve that problem
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tantek
any "solution" that doesn't just transparently reserve everything at the same URLs is not a solution
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tantek
what is not clear about that?
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tantek
what's your personal site voxpelli?
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voxpelli
tantek: english is http://kodfabrik.se/ - blog is http://voxpelli.se/
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tantek
nice
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tantek
OAuth was *definitely* discussed a lot at Indie Web Camp
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voxpelli
cool - but doesn't OAuth often need API:s and thus XML/JSON and WebFingery stuff?
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tantek
apparently not for the uses discussed
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tantek
so no
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voxpelli
Nice - great to hear it was discussed
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voxpelli
So - regarding my questions - sounds like it would be possible to build hosted indie web solutions
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brennannovak
OAuth 1.0 sucks... 2.0 is much better... that was (re)discovered from messig with the Flickr API
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brennannovak
s/messig/messing
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voxpelli
brennannovak: you mean that OAuth 2 Bearer Tokens are easier to handle?
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tantek
voxpelli re: "sounds like it would be possible to build hosted indie web solutions" - maybe - if that's something you're interested in you should pursue it! and please share the designs you come up with - others may want to contribute as well.
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brennannovak
voxpelli: easier in many ways, but yes, the bearer tokens are part of it
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brennannovak
voxpelli: what is your lang / stack of choice?
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah - I'm just thinking that it would probably be easier to gain leverage from hosted solutions
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tantek
dunno - seems like a harder problem to solve
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voxpelli
brennannovak: for OAuth I'm currently struggling with maintaining the Drupal OAuth module - a client and provider
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tantek
perhaps why everyone at Indie Web Camp was pursuing their own server hosted solutions
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voxpelli
tantek: harder at large perhaps - but easier for eg. my mother to use
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tantek
when you're hand-waving, everything is easier
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tantek
go build it and find out
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lmorchard
fwiw, I'd say domain mapping to a hosted service is a nice gateway drug to being more indie
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lmorchard
especially if the service lets you control URL space. That's somewhat rare, though.
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tantek
lmorchard there was one service that allowed it mentioned above
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lmorchard
but for example, using jekyll hosted on github is pretty easy to transition to S3
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tantek
something drupal something
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apparentlymart
in principle it's possible to keep permalinks between systems, but in practice most systems are not designed to do that
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lmorchard
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is, it's possible... so if you want to use a hosted service, shop wisely
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apparentlymart
and in some cases it's more of a product decision than a technical limitation that makes this happen
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lmorchard
just thinking in terms of cheap/free on-ramps to indie-ness
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voxpelli
tantek: I'll try to build when I find time
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apparentlymart
Already having your stuff domain mapped definitely smooths the move to indie
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voxpelli
One last question: Did you discuss realtimeness during the camp?
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apparentlymart
Having my blog on LiveJournal domain mapped made preserving my permalinks difficult rather than impossible
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apparentlymart
but it was still too complex for me to maintain in the long term
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apparentlymart
(I was using the moral equivalent of .htaccess and mod_rewrite, basically)
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apparentlymart
at least moving from hosted to indie with a mapped domain is easier than moving from hosted to hosted
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apparentlymart
or indeed from indie to hosted :)
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tantek
apparentlymart - have you blogged about the challenge of maintaining your permalinks? this sounds particularly relevant to the indie web.
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tantek
voxpelli - yes we discussed using Activity Streams + PuSH for realtime interactions
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apparentlymart
tantek, it was a while ago... I don't remember if I ever did write about it. Maybe I should.
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voxpelli
tantek: cool - sounds nice
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voxpelli
tantek: so essentially - the only parts of the ostatus stack you didn't discuss was webfinger and salmon?
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tantek
no we discussed salmon but how no one's actually got it working
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tantek
well cliqset supposedly did but then died?
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tantek
actually there was much salmon mockery
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tantek
anyone that wasn't a protocol nerd was pretty dismissive of the model and the nomenclature e.g. "slaps"
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tantek
but people did groan-worthy appreciate the salmon = sending comments back "up stream" to the original source of the post.
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apparentlymart
I like the idea of salmon but the protocol itself seems to be disproportionately complicated for what it does
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tantek
the conclusion was that given that Salmon has been discussed for ~2 years and people still don't have it working, perhaps there's an opportunity for people to build a solution that's simpler and abstract a simpler protocol.
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tantek
apparentlymart - strongly agreed
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tantek
this gets back to a good quote from daveman692
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tantek
products before protocols
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apparentlymart
I specced out a foundational piece that could be used as a foundation for a simpler salmon, here: http://martin.atkins.me.uk/specs/dfp
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tantek
(as in build)
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tantek
ooh
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tantek
reads
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apparentlymart
but I've not really been talking about it too much yet because I've not had time to actually implement it fully
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voxpelli
I think ~2 years is a short time in the open source world
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apparentlymart
I have an almost-complete implementation but I can't really present it to the world in good concience without implementing it first
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voxpelli
Try get something radical done in the Drupal community - will take longer than 2 years probably to get a well established solution
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apparentlymart
tantek, to be clear, that spec really just provides for the "authentication" bit to remove the cryptographic signatures from salmon. It doesn't actually address salmon use-cases directly itself.
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tantek
oh ok
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apparentlymart
I figured the new salmon-like thing on top of it would be pretty obvious given that foundation, so I've not bothered to write it down yet
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tantek
voxpelli - 2 years is too long
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tantek
for *today's* simple formats world
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apparentlymart
fundamentally salmon is just a POST to a URL with some authentication mechanism
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tantek
both XFN and microformats got implementations within weeks or months
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apparentlymart
the authentication mechanism is the hard part
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voxpelli
tantek: I agree - but it might be due to heavy systems like Drupal being to complicated rather than the formats :/
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apparentlymart
the challenge with server-to-server federation technologies is they're pretty hard to develop since your dev environment ends up needing to be on the public web
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apparentlymart
which is not the common case due to NAT
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voxpelli
tantek: Drupal still hasn't got good microformats support even though Chris Messina advocated for it many many years ago
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apparentlymart
and people's desire to do work on their personal computers rather than on servers
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apparentlymart
(running off to a meeting for a bit. back later.)
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voxpelli
tantek: really - Drupal got _no_ microformats support
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voxpelli
apparentlymart: you can work with virtual machines and multiple local sites?
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tantek
voxpelli - Drupal microformats support: http://microformats.org/wiki/drupal
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tantek
feel free to ask further about that in #microformats
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voxpelli
apparentlymart: at the federated social web conference in berlin they handed out usb drives to everyone with virtual machines containing statusnet etc
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tantek
and how many of those people went on to put their statusnet instance on the web?
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voxpelli
tantek: (it references a five year old issue - which was my point)
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (-1) (view diff)
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abki__
héllo
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Loqi
[http://twitter.com/secos] Post Once, Syndicate Everywhere #pose #indieweb <- I like this idea... and the irony of it's acronym.
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abki__
anyone nose where are the notes from the last barcamp/devcamp that is mention on activity stream mailling list ?
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tantek
abki__: http://indiewebcamp.com/
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caseorganic
http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-28
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abki__
tantek, thx
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abki__
caseorganic, ?
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caseorganic
aaronpk
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caseorganic
easy to browse http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-27
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tantek
aaronpk - very nice!
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aaronpk
i'll work on adding links to those pages onto the wiki
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caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+92) (view diff)
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abki__
are you related to diaspora ?
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brennannovak
abki__: related by the fact we believe in many of the same goals
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apparentlymart
voxpelli, yeah, it gets easier once there is at least one implementation you can run locally
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Loqi
[http://twitter.com/pkbot] Posted a photo: IndieWebCamp 2011 http://aaron.pk/2ZM [Flickr]
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abki__
let me dive in then
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abki__
cause I don't know this goals
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abki__
because*
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abki__
you think about opensource and distributed communication ?
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tantek
yes
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abki__
I wanted to create a social network so I came getting a gimplse of what is already being made
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abki__
social network = software...
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abki__
actually a social network distribution but all on the same stack of tools (not like gnome which has several framework / tools you can build in even if most share GTK GNU/TOOLS ;)
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abki__
the aim of GNOME is to build the best desktop experience whatever the language you write the program in... it's an hard choice IMO
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abki__
they are praising diversity
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abki__
that's a choice
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abki__
such application could be long to build in the web, but I know big compagny already do it, but they have the money language it's easier for them
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abki__
glimpse ?
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tantek
we're not building social networks
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tantek
the web is a social network
#
tantek
if you want to join it, setup/build/maintain your own indie web site
#
tantek
aaronpk, perhaps we could put an index to logs here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/
#
abki__
you don't get my point
#
tantek
or rather, here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc
#
abki__
tantek, do you like wordpress application ?
#
tantek
aaronpk, so basically, is there a way to turn off the redirect from http://indiewebcamp.com/irc to irc/ ?
#
tantek
abki__ I think wordpress is cool and there are some folks using it to make their indie web sites.
#
abki__
I didn't know they were indie applications :)
#
abki__
once the name...
#
abki__
x)
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tantek
abki__ there's a lot on that on http://indiewebcamp.com/ - consider reading through the pages
#
tantek
like: http://indiewebcamp.com/Why
#
abki__
thanks
#
abki__
tantek,
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abki__
is that happening « You've been disappeared from a hosting service, or suffered from involuntary identity re-assignment (perhaps due to trademark claims or other intimidation). »
#
abki__
can they take all your stuff from your own application ?
#
abki__
I mistunderstand the claim above
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tantek
abki__ they can on hosted sites yes. and have.
#
tantek
numerous stories about it over the years.
#
tantek
hence the links.
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abki__
you mean this « sharecropping and site death » ?
#
abki__
I'm here http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/2010-199-tantek-fsws-talk#sharecropping_and_site_death
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abki__
I see written : "don't sell you app it will be killed" in your talk tantek
#
tantek
abki__ that's what the data demonstrates in practice
#
tantek
most sites that are bought end up dead or at a minimum very neglected.
#
abki__
like delicious...
#
abki__
I week of delicious and I wanted to change it, yet it was the most popular bookmark repository (among technical people too)
#
caseorganic
The web is a database
#
caseorganic
People have placed their information there already
#
caseorganic
creating another social network is not effective or useful. it is redundant
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abki__
that said you try to make it inter-operable
#
abki__
I see your point
#
caseorganic
allowing one to centralize their information and use that when interacting with the web reduces time, effort and reduncancy.
#
abki__
true
#
abki__
I like the idea of wordpress like solution, not everybody can run any car...
#
abki__
same thing applies for the rest of the web.
#
abki__
Indie is ok but see that application like drupal that let you build communities like znet are also immensly useful
#
abki__
my point just like there are distros they will be social apps. Anybody can build from strach linux, does anybody do it ? no. It's the same for social presence in the web
#
caseorganic
what kind of communities need to be built that aren't supported by the current web structure?
#
caseorganic
there's irc, there's quora, facebook, delicious
#
abki__
not every one want to use these apps the way they are today once numerous apps in the web (that don't always communicate) once indy software ?
#
abki__
the thing you do with DiSo is reinventing the internet for me
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abki__
a community of people that share the same need in term of social presence and possibilities of way of expression on the web
#
abki__
some people can't build they own application it should be easy to let anybody express itself in this language
#
abki__
new tool
#
Loqi
[http://twitter.com/abki_] insightful http://indiewebcamp.com/Why (via http://activitystrea.ms/ mailling list)
#
abki__
so living
#
caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+0) (view diff)
#
caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (+24) (view diff)
#
caseorganic
edited /Main_Page (-1) (view diff)
#
crystalbeasley
created /One-Click_Install_of_your_IndieWeb_Site (+1050) "Created page with 'Wordpress's famous five-minute install is the bar for how easy it should be to get your own instance of a personal indie website. Our job is to make it at least that simple or we…'" (view diff)
#
abki__
how can answer ?
#
abki__
how can I answer?
#
caseorganic
http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain
#
abki__
don't make me jump !
#
abki__
there is all this gondor.io stuff
#
abki__
I'm testing it right now it rather easy to use even for no body, GUI would be good (like oggdrop ;)
#
abki__
and cons side
#
tantek
edited /Schedule (+229) "demos went til 6:30, then community cleanup." (view diff)
#
abki__
it's service stack on top of open tools (like appengine), and it doesn't support wsgi
#
abki__
http://indiewebcamp.com/Contribute
#
abki__
you are kidding right ?
#
tantek
no
#
abki__
joke I just read this http://www.quora.com/What-websites-have-the-best-new-user-onboarding-flows ;)
#
tantek
you must be this (raises hand) indie to participate
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aaronpk * uploaded "[[File:indie-web-camp-2011.jpg]]"
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aaronpk
edited /Main_Page (+1) "replaced photo on home page with the real version" (view diff)
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abki__
hyper-move my mind
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aaronpk
edited /Classof2011 (+1) "replaced photo" (view diff)
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tantek
created /IRC (+6857) "drafted from http://microformats.org/wiki/irc (viva la public domain!)" (view diff)
#
abki__
is there somewhere the algorithm behind Whistle ?
#
aaronpk
edited /IRC (+131) "linked my name and linked Loqi to his page on my site" (view diff)
#
tantek
tantek.com/w/Whistle has the algorithm
#
tantek
created /IndieWebCamp:Copyrights (+200) "drafted with poetic license text from https://github.com/veganstraightedge/microformats2 and reference to CC0." (view diff)
#
abki__
base 58 is reversible ?
#
tantek
edited /IndieWebCamp:Copyrights (+6) "wiki markup" (view diff)
#
tantek
which base 58? URL?
#
tantek
and NewBase60 is absolutely reversible
#
tantek
with open source code to do so (across various languages)
#
tantek
aaronpk we should put the CC0 license in the edit page template too
#
crystalbeasley
edited /Main_Page (+41) (view diff)
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abki__
« plenty overengineered for any human lifetime. »
#
abki__
context « Why 3 sexagesimal digits to represent the date? It turns out that 3 sexagesimal digits are capable of representing over 500 years of days - plenty overengineered for any human lifetime. »
#
abki__
http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/21743973/Whistle#whyanalgorithmicURLshortener
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tantek
basically replace "under the Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 Unported" in the edit template PHP with "to the public domain according to CC0 ( http://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/ )
#
tantek
that's right abki__
#
abki__
you don't believe in psychohistory ?
#
aaronpk
tantek: ok
#
tantek
abki__ URL?
#
tantek
Whistle is for the indie web. activities by one person for their website.
#
tantek
activities, not history.
#
abki__
psychohistory has nothing to do with history or almost
#
abki__
it's fictional science that predicts future
#
tantek
edited /IndieWebCamp:Copyrights (+2) "fmt" (view diff)
#
abki__
Psychohistory 've put the wikipedia page in my reading list
#
tantek
predictions != activities
#
abki__
that's not what science says
#
tantek
actually it is
#
tantek
activities in science would be measuring real world phenonmena
#
tantek
predictions are hypothesis formed by those observations
#
abki__
of course
#
tantek
so no
#
abki__
you eat chaos theory here
#
tantek
plus again, we're talking indie web. one person. one web site.
#
tantek
no thanks, I'm cutting back.
#
tantek
you could post things to the future of your presumed life if you wanted to.
#
abki__
ActiveStream is for sharing this activities I though
#
tantek
yes
#
tantek
activitystreams that is
#
tantek
not ActiveStream - never heard of that
#
abki__
ActivityStreams I meaned
#
aaronpk
subtle color coding on irc logs to distinguish between joins/messages/bots http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-06-27
#
abki__
machine learning says we can predict the future
#
abki__
at lest we can predict the future outcome of an even for instance "you will like that" it's far fetchedd
#
abki__
but nothing stop people from one day discovering rules in human choices
#
abki__
whatever you may not be interrested in this
#
tantek
abki__ - not sure what any of that has to do with indieweb
#
abki__
yep
#
tantek
you might want to check out a machine learning channel instead
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abki__
thanks for the idea
#
tantek
like the semantic web interest group: #swig
#
abki__
web apps that does semantic thing or machine learning stuff...
#
tantek
yes - go ahead and note your questions / observations about machine learning stuff in that channel
#
tantek
created /Template:irc_user (+85) "drafted from http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:irc_user" (view diff)
#
tantek
created /IRC-people (+182) "drafted inspired by http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people" (view diff)
#
tantek
copying these pages from the microformats wiki and forking/tweaking makes me *really* want the Federated Wiki already.
#
tantek
ok folks we flipped the switches (should've done earlier) for Indiewebcamp.com contributions from the MediaWiki default CC-BY-SA-ND 3.0 unported to Public Domain CC0 (was always our intent)
#
tantek
if any wiki contributors here have any objections, please speak up and we can excise your content from the wiki accordingly.
#
hober
fine by me
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aaronpk
tantek: any objections to renaming [[IRC-people]] to [[IRC People]]?
#
tantek
no go ahead
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[IRC-people]] to [[IRC People]]: naming conventions
#
tantek
aaronpk - if you'd like, perhaps you could write up some naming conventions you suggest for IndieWebCamp.com.
#
aaronpk
edited /IRC_People (+94) "added amber and aaron" (view diff)
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tantek
edited /Guest_List (+0) "missed briansuda" (view diff)
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aaronpk
created /Help:Editing (+940) "basic wiki editing help" (view diff)
#
tantek
I've added all the speakers I could find from the Schedule page to Lanyrd: http://lanyrd.com/2011/indie-web-camp/
#
aaronpk
wow, nice
#
tantek
if you spoke, please be sure to add yourself if you're not already there.
#
tantek
since OSBridge 2012 was already announced 6/26-6/29, shall we tentatively reserve the weekend after for IndieWebCamp in the same way?
#
tantek
cc: aaronpk caseorganic skinnywhitegirl
#
aaronpk
let's do it
#
tantek
right then. how do we properly archive current content (without making it too hard to find) and setup a sign-up page etc. for 2012?
#
aaronpk
move all necessary pages to have a suffix of "2011"?
#
tantek
or to start them with "2011/" ?
#
tantek
and then we could put the 2012 pages at "2012/" etc.
#
tantek
is tending to prefer year first for organizing URLs etc.
#
aaronpk
that'd work. the wiki doesn't really have a concept of folders, so the page title would be "2011/Guest List"
#
aaronpk
the URLs would look good and the page titles won't look too weird
#
aaronpk
also I'll put them into a "2011" category
#
tantek
right - except that mediawiki sometimes makes nav links for the intermediate segments
#
tantek
right - the end of the page title will still be the human readable name of the page
#
tantek
we could keep /Schedule etc. as redirects to the 2011/ pages until we got closer to 2012
#
tantek
e.g. until 2011-12-31
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tantek
hey shaners I borrowed some of your github
#
shaners
cool. what was?
#
shaners
tantek ^^^
#
tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCamp:Copyrights
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shaners
love it!
#
aaronpk
tantek: URLs just for you ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-179
#
tantek
edited /Main_Page (+329) "2012: Scheduled for: June 30 - July 1st, 2012, and a few steps forward" (view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk - sweetness!!
#
tantek
ordinal ISO dates FTW!
#
shaners
roll my eyes ;)
#
tantek
Ok I've asked Urban Airship about 2012.
#
aaronpk
thanks!
#
aaronpk
tantek: this is a very useful and well-thought-out piece of code, http://keithdevens.com/software/php_calendar, it would be awesome if there were a cassis.js version of it for printing NewCal calendars ;)
#
brennannovak
I propose we do quarterly or a 6 month out hackathon / meeting (even if that means in separate cities)
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shaners
+1
#
brennannovak
aaronpk: tantek: I believe jQuery UI has a decent calendar widget that may be a good starting point
#
aaronpk
brennannovak: nah, I don't want a widget, I just want something that spits out html
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brennannovak
I see
#
aaronpk
if you look at that code, it's well thought out, he wrote the minimum useful code that can be repurposed as needed
#
brennannovak
cool
#
tantek
I'd rather some sort of MediaWiki plugin that let you create event objects in the markup.
#
tantek
as well as person objects
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Loqi
[http://twitter.com/reidab] Uploaded 315 photos from @osbridge! http://bit.ly/kDbFb (and a few more from #indiewebcamp http://bit.ly/iEnC7T)
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aaronpk
created /IRC_Logs (+39) "Created page with '<IRCLogIndex channel="#indiewebcamp" />'" (view diff)
#
aaronpk
IRC Logs with color-coded dates based on density of chat per day http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_Logs
#
Loqi
[http://twitter.com/PDXsays] @reidab thanks! #indiewebcamp
#
Loqi
[http://twitter.com/osbridge] RT @reidab: Uploaded 315 photos from @osbridge! http://bit.ly/kDbFb (and a few more from #indiewebcamp http://bit.ly/iEnC7T)
#
tantek
aaronpk that's pretty cool
#
tantek
why not just /irc/ ?
#
aaronpk
couldn't get the redirect working properly, and you already have a real page at /IRC anyway
#
tantek
but they're case-sensitive right?
#
tantek
and since it's just a page, we could combine the two
#
tantek
e.g.
#
aaronpk
put the calendars in the /IRC page?
#
tantek
edited /IRC (-46) "add logs calendar inline" (view diff)
#
tantek
:)
#
aaronpk
sweet
#
tantek
while you're enabling markup on the wiki - could you add the EnableAbbrTags and ExtendAnchorTags for POSH/Microformats support
#
tantek
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EnableAbbrTags
#
tantek
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:ExtendAnchorTags
#
aaronpk
k
#
tantek
oh and I noticed that someone got in with a wordpress.com non-indie-web URL - might want to add that to the OpenID provider blacklist
#
aaronpk
hm those look like they are already installed, are they not working?
#
tantek
btw, FYI for background (most of which we've taken care of) http://microformats.org/wiki/mediawiki-customization
#
tantek
yeah abbr's didn't work
#
tantek
when I tried them for the dates
#
tantek
e.g. <abbr class="dtstart d-start" title="2011-06-25">July 25</abbr>
#
aaronpk
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EnableAbbrTags says it uses the <xabbr> tag
#
tantek
huh
#
tantek
that's very weird
#
tantek
it works on the microformats wiki
#
aaronpk
different version?
#
tantek
why would they do that?
#
tantek
oh
#
tantek
there's a list of global tags somewhere
#
tantek
that mediawiki allows
#
tantek
that you have to modify
#
tantek
hmm
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tantek
found it
#
tantek
in /includes/Sanitizer.php
#
tantek
look for $htmlpairs = array_merge( $extratags, array( # Tags that must be closed
#
aaronpk
I have to edit a core file?
#
tantek
change
#
tantek
'b', 'del',
#
tantek
to
#
tantek
'abbr', 'b', 'del',
#
aaronpk
k done. I feel like i've done that before. I must have lost the changes when I upgraded MW versions
#
tantek
that's probably what happened
#
tantek
makes no sense that they omit abbr
#
tantek
maybe contribute the change and see what happens
#
tantek
and looks like we're not the only ones that want/do this customization
#
tantek
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help_talk:Formatting#some.2C_but_not_all_HTML_tags
#
aaronpk
heh
#
tantek
more indiewebcamp photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/reidab/sets/72157626947749601/with/5882965200/
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DawnFoster
aaronpk: can I use this photo for a gigaom blog post (with attribution of course): http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp-2011.jpg
#
aaronpk
DawnFoster: yep! please do!
#
DawnFoster
aaronpk: I knew you wouldn't mind, but I have to say that I got permission :)
#
aaronpk
it's also licensed creative commons attribution: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/5881894938/
#
DawnFoster
awesome, thanks!
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[Guest List]] to [[2011/Guest List]]
#
aaronpk
edited /2011/Guest_List (-431) (view diff)
#
aaronpk
created /2012/Guest_List (+5171) "skeleton 2012 guest list" (view diff)
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[Classof2011]] to [[Class of 2011]]
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[Planning]] to [[2011/Planning]]
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[Sessions]] to [[2011/Sessions]]
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[Schedule]] to [[2011/Schedule]]
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aaronpk
edited /One-Click_Install_of_your_IndieWeb_Site (+46) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /2011/Planning (-69) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /2011/Sessions (-53) "2011" (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /2011/Schedule (-25) "2011" (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /2012/Guest_List (+19) "2012" (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Publish_Then_Syndicate_and_Replicate (+18) (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronpk * deleted "[[Unix Approach to Social Networking]]": no notes
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronpk * deleted "[[Everything in Plaintext]]": no notes
#
aaronpk
edited /Standardizing_Web_Intents (-23) (view diff)
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aaronpk
created /MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown (+93) "Created page with '*Common delete reasons ** Author request ** Copyright violation ** Vandalism ** Empty Content'" (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /MediaWiki:Deletereason-dropdown (+0) (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronpk * deleted "[[Escape Pods for Walled Gardens]]": Empty Content
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aaronpk
edited /How_Does_Biology_Solve_our_Problems? (+18) (view diff)
#
aaronpk
created /Category:2011 (+45) "Created page with 'Pages relating to the 2011 IndieWebCamp event'" (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /The_Space-Time_Continuum (+18) (view diff)
#
aaronpk
edited /Homesteading_and_No_More_Sharecropping (+18) (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronpk * deleted "[[WYSIWTF Separating CMS from Web Publishing Tools]]": Empty Content
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aaronpk
edited /Federating_Systems_with_Peer-to-Peer_Architectures (+18) (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronpk * deleted "[[Health Data]]": Empty Content
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronpk * deleted "[[Hacks for Wordpress]]": Empty Content
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aaronpk
edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+18) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Own_Your_Phone_Number (+18) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Scala/Lift_Quick_Start (-66) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /How_the_Indie_Web_Hooks_into_Hosted_Communities (+18) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Stream_Storage_DB/S3 (+19) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Collecting_Interesting_Data_for_Personal_Data_Stores (-16) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Web_Analytics (+18) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Flickr/Wordpress_Upstream_Posting (+18) (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[Demos]] to [[2011/Demos]]
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aaronpk
edited /2011/Demos (+19) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /2012/Guest_List (+32) (view diff)
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aaronpk
edited /Main_Page (+83) "updating links with 2011/2012" (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[Sponsors]] to [[2011/Sponsors]]
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aaronpk * uploaded "[[File:osbridge logo.gif]]"
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronpk * moved [[File:osbridge logo.gif]] to [[File:osbridge-logo.gif]]
#
Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aaronpk * uploaded "[[File:osbridge-logo.png]]"
#
aaronpk
edited /2011/Sponsors (+335) (view diff)
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tantek
created /Builders (+21) "redir" (view diff)
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tantek
edited /2012/Guest_List (+22) "Like IndieWebCamp 2011, plus twitters" (view diff)
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Loqi
[http://twitter.com/remware] RT @geekygirldawn: After spending all weekend here at #indieweb, I'm back for @mobileportland. mHealth: How Mobile Can Make Us Healthier http://bit.ly/isvjwD
(or join via IRC, Matrix, or Slack)