#indiewebcamp 2012-09-18

2012-09-18 UTC
tantek, spinnerin and dascher joined the channel
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aaronpk
!tell barnabywalters thanks for the tip! Looks like my feed broke when I posted an image in a note! Should be fixed now, but everything is wrapped in an extra <p> tag
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris
tantek: I left a note on your Wikipedia talk page.
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /location (+117) "/* Enabling Technologies */ Added geonames"
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tommorris
wonders if barnaby will swoop in momentarily.
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tantek
oh hey tommorris
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Loqi
barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 11 hours, 23 minutes ago: thanks for the tip! Looks like my feed broke when I posted an image in a note! Should be fixed now, but everything is wrapped in an extra <p> tag
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: fab, yep, I've been able to successfully subscribe to your feed now
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barnabywalters
I'll add to the wiki that dumb truncation and html preprocessors which don't produce valid XML are the biggest error-causers when it comes to feeds
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barnabywalters
tommorris: successfully received a realtime notification of your new content
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tommorris
awesomesauce
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barnabywalters
I just made a screencase trying to show end-to-end use of PuSH. Did a clear explanation, then it failed on me :| Not sure whether to post it out of honesty or make one which works
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tantek
banabywalters - if you can debug it, screencasting your method/process of debugging could be useful.
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tantek
thanks tommorris - I am a bit surprised at the scant citations on the NASCAR article, thought we had more.
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barnabywalters
tantek: or it could expose my incompetence, and just be a 10 minute long video of me saying "Hmmm" and trawling through logs :)
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tantek
that's what editing is for
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barnabywalters
heh — okay, I'll just leave the camera running
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barnabywalters
actually, that might be an interesting experiment anyway, just recording my screen all the time
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tantek
tommorris, I think I'd rather contribute to an article on NASCAR on the IndieWebCamp wiki which has less chance of being deleted (and is reasonably topical, since UI for login etc. is something essential to a good IndieWeb experience)
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tantek
will ping briansuda accordingly
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tantek
so he can contribute his original material as PD to the IndieWebCamp wiki
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tommorris
tantek: well, you can import it from WP. if there's other stuff that has been deleted
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tommorris
I'm happy to userfy and export
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tommorris
I do find it amusing that we've all collectively rejected OpenID because of the NASCAR problem, and now use OAuth instead.
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tommorris
I was offered the option to login today with my TED username. (I don't have a TED username.) ;-)
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tommorris
that said, I've found two potential sources for the NASCAR problem - a book called "Programming Windows Identity Foundation" and this http://www.webmonkey.com/2010/01/openid_connect_rethinking_openid_as_more_than_just_identity/
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barnabywalters
okay, I recorded that debug session. It was mainly "Hmmm, I've checked everything and it *should* work, why is it not working?"
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barnabywalters
so I think I'll "edit" that by throwing it away
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tantek
barnabywalters - sounds like you're not done debugging ;)
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tantek
has dm'd briansuda asking that he develop the NASCAR problem article here: http://indiewebcamp.com/NASCAR_problem
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suda.co.uk
created /NASCAR_problem (+1088) "copied over the file from wikipedia"
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barnabywalters
tantek: yep :| I went for a walk, in the hope it would work when I came back
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tantek
huh - copying the file from WP to IndieWebCamp doesn't really work due to license differences (IndieWebCamp is PD). We have to only copy from original author (Brian's intent) and anybody else who contributes to PD regularly (e.g. on microformats.org)
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tantek.com
deleted /NASCAR_problem "content was copy from WP article. deleting to start fresh from original contributions from Brian Suda, Tantek Çelik, Chris Messina"
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barnabywalters
btw tantek did you see the "itches" entry pages I made?
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barnabywalters
after IWC UK I thought it might be a good idea to have some basic organisation and entry points for people to see what's being worked on
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tantek
barnabywalters - great to see the new pages!
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tantek
One thing about "itches" - they really should be personal user scenarios, rather than abstract labels like "location"
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tantek
I mean, it's good to have a "location" article, but "location" is not an itch.
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tantek
"indieweb checkins" is an itch
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tantek
make sense?
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tantek
tommorris - I suppose the closest thing we had/have to a Principles page before you posted yours was the Creators page
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barnabywalters
yep, but that's purely a terminology issue — I'll just change the category name
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tantek
it's not a terminology issue
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tantek
an "itch" is a real thing
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tantek
in the development / design context, scratching an itch means solving a problem for yourself
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tantek
location is not a "problem"
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tantek
"how do I check-in to a location using my own website" is a problem
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barnabywalters
sure, by "terminology issue" I meant "I used the wrong terminology"
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tantek
well it's not that you used any "wrong" terminology, just mismatched
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tantek
as in yes, we should have a "location" page with various references
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barnabywalters
so "itches" get renamed to something else, and itches get listed under them
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tantek
and we should *also* have a "checkins" page for solving the problem of how to do indieweb checkins
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tantek
I'm not sure renaming makes any sense
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barnabywalters
just renaming the category
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tantek
because there's no specific concept that the current category embodies
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tantek
that's the problem
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barnabywalters
fair enough
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tantek
the pages currently listed on http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:itch are a mix of indieweb building blocks and reference pages
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tantek
both of which are valuable, but they're not the same thing
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barnabywalters
'building blocks' sounds like a better classification
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tantek
it's closer
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tantek
e.g. discovery is a building block
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tantek
but "location" - as written, is not
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tantek
because it's more of a reference to various things
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tantek
rather than a specific thing
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tantek
references list everything related
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tantek
whereas a building block is a *specific* thing or set of things that helps you get things done
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tantek
and may even list legacy / other stuff separately
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barnabywalters
okay, this sounds like a much more solid IA
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barnabywalters
I am not experienced with wikis :|
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tantek
I'm not a big fan of categories, but feel free to try to make them work :)
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tantek
display-guidelines is another good building block
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tantek
as is autosuggest
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barnabywalters
tantek: how would you rather structure things? My intention was really just to have generic entry points for people interested in a certain area, so they can instantly get a feel for what work has been/is being done and who's working on it
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tantek
I typically *don't* structure things unless there is a specific value (use-case) to be gained from doing so.
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tantek
otherwise you can spend all your time reorganizing and never do actual work
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barnabywalters
as I have written about before, I am no fan of "categories" either (woo tags) but I feel there is a need for entry points
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barnabywalters
beyond the current "what, where, when" ones
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tantek
better to force yourself to design a good introductory / clustering structure of pages from the home page down
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tantek
if you're not sure, you can put links to pages in a "new pages" section on the home page, and wait for someone else to restructure them
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tantek
that way there is at least *an* entry point
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tantek
the "who's working on it" btw is already apparent from the page's history
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tantek
and listing it explicitly on the page quickly gets out of date
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barnabywalters
yep, that is a maintenance problem
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tantek
better to be DRY and just stick with the history being self-reflective about that
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tantek
it's being worked on by whoever is editing the page most recently :)
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barnabywalters
it'd be nice if that data was made a bit more visible, but I agree
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barnabywalters
okay, I'll leave my faulty IA in place for the mo and work from the homepage down
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tantek
awesome - thanks barnabywalters
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tantek
feel free to think out loud here in the IRC channel when considering how to organize things
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barnabywalters
yep, will do
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tantek
even if no one responds, it might help clear things up
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barnabywalters
yep, I'm a fan of typing out loud to myself
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tantek.com
edited /NASCAR_problem (+0) "fix links"
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tantek.com
created /OpenID (+55) "stub"
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tantek.com
edited /NASCAR_problem (+0) "fix link"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+114) "Moved 2012/UK to Past Events"
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tantek.com
edited /NASCAR_problem (+332) "copy/adjust applicable FactoryJoe (Chris Messina) edits to the original WP article: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User%3ABriansuda%2FNASCAR_problem&diff=304955319&oldid=301938084"
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barnabywalters
okay, on the main page, 'what' is a slightly expanded version of the top section, and the second paragraph (IWC is an annual gathering…) is inaccurate as there've been two this year
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barnabywalters
so I propose making 'What' the first paragraph
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tantek.com
edited /NASCAR_problem (+27) "category"
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tantek
barnabywalters re: categories and tags, we can try just using them as tags and see what happens
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barnabywalters
tantek: I'm not really fussed about exactly what we use from an IA perspective, I'm more interested in providing useful entry points
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barnabywalters
hence now working on the front page
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tantek
great
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tommorris
tantek: do you wanna import the page from WP with history? MediaWiki has full history import and export
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tantek
remember to keep in mind that there are many uses for the home page
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tantek
tommorris - no because not all the contributors to the WP page are PD contributors
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tommorris
ah okay
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tantek
and IndieWebCamp.com contributions are PD
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barnabywalters
tantek: right now I'm just eliminating redundant information
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tantek
simplification is good, as long as the information really is redundant :)
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barnabywalters
well, the first section and the "what" section are almost exactly the same
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tantek
often surfacing "redundant" information on higher level pages (e.g. main, event home page etc.) is better for usability though - not having to click through multiple pages to find common information needs
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barnabywalters
in this case, there were two paragraphs which looked copy/pasted
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tantek
tommorris - are there places where WP-like articles on more obscure/arcane subjects are first developed (while they would get deleted on WP due to not be relevant/prominent enough) ?
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tommorris
yeah, quite a few
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tommorris
most of wikia, wikinfo. sometimes we shunt stuff between the wikimedia projects. I'm an admin on wikiqueer which hosts LGBT related material that's outside of Wikipedia's scope
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tommorris
there's also a guy who archives a lot of the speedy deleted stuff
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tommorris
plus at wikipedia, there are a lot of admins who are willing to undelete stuff on request
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barnabywalters
tommorris: when something is deleted, it's *really* deleted, right? no archived edit history?
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tommorris
no. admins can still access all the history
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tommorris
for stuff that really, really needs to be deleted there are overnighters - http://enwp.org/OS
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tommorris
oversighters
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tommorris
damn OS X autocorrect
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tommorris
child porn images, we delete them and then they are over sighted and then actually physically removed from the server hardware.
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (-218) "Eliminated redundant copy and tidied it up"
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tantek.com
edited /NASCAR_problem (+532) "add more references / see also. first cited comparison to NASCAR by Jeff Atwood"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+21) "/* When */ Tidied up copy"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+42) "/* 2012 */ Tidied up event listing"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+3) "/* IndieWebCamp */"
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barnabywalters
okay, the FAQ looks neglected. It has one question, which should be in a syndication/feeds best practises page
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+93) "Tidied up the How section"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /FAQ () "(-582) Removed out of date information, replaced with a link to more up to date info"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+2) "/* Who */"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+2) "Made Who a subsection of IWC 2013 as all it's links pointed there anyway"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Main_Page (+130) "/* How */"
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barnabywalters
ARGH! PuSH is working perfectly again. I'm almost annoyed, as I didn't figure out what was going wrong.
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barnabywalters
It could happen again at any time
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barnabywalters
better do a syndication demo video quick!
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@BarnabyWalters
@kissane hmm, there's a lot of thought about that happening @indiewebcamp. Not sure there are any solid articles as such though.
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tantek
I'm wondering if I'm seeing something special in Google results (that wasn't there before)
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tantek
semi-indieweb related
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tantek
trying doing a search for XOXO Directory
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aaronpk
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 5 karma
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tantek
what do you see in the first 2-3 results?
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tantek
btw re: Flickr, do you know the photo.gne?id= trick?
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tantek
(id extracted from your link)
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aaronpk
ah neat
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tantek
so the first result's rich snippet is from the semantic table on that page
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tantek
the "500+ items" is from counting the number of rows in the table
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tantek
it's a rich snippet derived purely from semantic HTML5
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aaronpk
that's kind of amazing
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tantek
I can't find any documentation on it
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tantek
but it looks like if (most of?) a page has a (just one?) simple table on it with a row of <th> header cells and the rest with <td>s, Google will use that to build the rich snippet.
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tantek
no other markup needed
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tantek
interesting thing is that the "table" rich snippet does not show up when you use Google's rich snippet testing tool
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tantek
in using the rich snippets test, I noticed that it now parses out hAtom (hfeed, hentry) and shows you the results (including warnings for anything that it thinks is wrong)
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tantek
anyone know when Google started parsing hAtom (hfeed, hentry)? danbri do you know these things?
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Contribute (+4) "/* How to Contribute */ Added link to IRC page"
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tommorris
barnabywalters: you can contribute, by COMING TALKING TO US! ;-)
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barnabywalters
tommorris: yep, pretty much :)
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barnabywalters
Okay, I'm getting a bit closer to the PuSH bug
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barnabywalters
there's a period of unresponsiveness after subscribing, for some reason
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barnabywalters
submitted a new issue on the pubsub site, as it seems to be a problem on their end and not mine
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