2013-04-19 UTC
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# 00:00 tantek and then once they solved the where are comments stored, how do we notify comments have been made problems - they claim they're done (e.g. pingback) # 00:00 aaronpk and that's why I'm not really interested in building any sort of backend comment thing yet until the UX part is figured out # 00:00 tantek and then fail to actually solve *the most important problem* # 00:01 tantek well, by "until the UX part is figured out" - do you mean, until the UX part is figured out by someone else, or until the UX part is figured out by you? # 00:02 tantek (I'm trying to do the latter, obviously, figure out the UX of a good commenting system) # 00:02 tantek I mean, I'm happy to share what I figure out and have you simply implement it :) # 00:02 Loqi tantek meant to say: I mean, I'm happy to share what I design ;) and have you simply implement it :) # 00:03 tantek in looking at FB/Tw/IG/4SQ - I'm finding all kinds of little details each is getting wrong and right # 00:03 tantek they don't seem to be copying the best parts of each other (yet) # 00:04 aaronpk yea, it's fascinating how different the engagement is between all the services # 00:04 tantek even between their web / mobile-web / iOS app versions - it's like they have different designers on each that are designing more by taste than by what actually works best (across all three) # 00:05 tantek and I don't think you're going to like the answer # 00:05 tantek but it will illustrate the more pragmatic "what I can ship quickest on my own site" aspect of the IndieWeb way # 00:07 tantek That is, when people comment, they're @-replying to the POSSEd copy of my note, but without leaving the original post permalink page of my note. # 00:07 tantek Except if *I* reply, then obviously it gets posted on my site first, and POSSE'd to Twitter, with the in-reply-to-status-id set accordingly to whatever I was replying to. # 00:08 tantek second iteration will likely keep a copy of any comment posted in my own hAtom store, along with the copy of the comment (@-reply) on Twitter. # 00:09 aaronpk so in both cases you're using twitter for authenticaiton? # 00:09 tantek (I'll likely have a minor disclaimer somewhere saying that by commenting you place your comment into the public domain per CC0) # 00:09 tantek (which basically means I have no obligation to provide a delete interface or anything else) # 00:10 tantek that's my thinking in terms of what can I code sooner than a fully federated system, and still have people be at least somewhat interested in using it # 00:11 tantek now what would be *really* interesting is to figure out how make a "Comment" or "Reply" webaction button which e.g. your site or Barnaby's toolbar could take over and then use it to post to your own site, and then notify my site through webmention # 00:12 tantek so third iteration, listen to webmentions for indieweb comments # 00:12 aaronpk i mean you can't put an inline comment box and also post to twitter, so it means you have to use the tweet buton popup thing # 00:12 aaronpk which means the browser extension could override that # 00:12 tantek but then - how to display them - I'd prefer that they look like normal comments # 00:13 tantek so my first goal is to enable others to @-reply to my notes directly from my notes pages themselves, rather having to go to Twitter to find the POSSE'd copy and reply to that # 00:13 aaronpk and people should be able to reply to one of the comments the same way! # 00:13 tantek and then of course to allow me to also follow-up reply to those # 00:14 tantek but before I implement any of this UI I want to first be able to reply to tweets from my site the way you and Barnaby (and tommorris too?) do # 00:17 tantek just to catch up to what you and barnaby have working already # 00:18 aaronpk oh I just realized your notes don't link to the twitter syndicated copy # 00:20 tantek no not yet. it's in the post storage but I'm not displaying it yet. # 00:20 aaronpk if you have it in the post data, why are you not yet displaying it? # 00:22 aaronpk yes I would change the UI I use for mine if I were to implement comments as you described # 00:22 tantek and heck - all you guys display/link to your POSSE'd copies totally differently! # 00:22 tantek so there's no indieweb UI pattern yet for displaying links to syndications # 00:22 tantek I mean we just came up with rel=syndication for discovery of said links like last week or something # 00:23 tantek has been trying to wrap his brain around the entire set of distributed commenting UI/protocol/implementation challenges. # 00:23 tantek and tease out building block solutions one at a time # 00:27 tantek aaronpk - AFAIK - you have the only example of an indieweb reply to an indieweb post where the POSSE'd copy of your reply properly links back to the POSSE'd copy of the indieweb post you're replying to. # 00:27 tantek I don't know how much of what you did there was manual markup vs. p3k doing it for you, but it's awesome. # 00:27 tantek that post definitely broke new ground in terms of how replies / POSSE should work # 00:28 tantek do you have any other reply posts to other indieweb posts like that? # 00:29 aaronpk I did have to manually push it to twitter (using the "tweet" button that appears on my posts!) b0bg0d joined the channel
# 00:32 tantek but then how did you create the "Reply on Twitter" link in the sidebar of that post permalink? # 00:32 aaronpk oh right,I had to go back in to the post and add the tweet ID scor joined the channel
# 00:33 aaronpk now that I did that whole flow by hand I have a good idea of how to automate it # 00:33 aaronpk cause I had only been replying to single tweets or posts before # 00:33 tantek awesome! looking forward to seeing you automate the implementation of that! # 00:34 tantek and yes - that's why I'm working on first getting "replying to single tweets" working on my setup # 00:34 tantek you definitely set a high water mark with that post # 00:34 tantek I mean I realize that post was only 30 days ago :) # 00:34 aaronpk nope :( haven't found many other people posting stuff and syndicating to twitter # 00:35 tantek so next time you feel like replying to one of my notes… :) # 00:38 tantek perhaps I need to figure out something to say that is clever/worthy enough to deserve a decentralized comment post from aaronparecki.com ;) # 00:44 tantek obviously written to be self-describing - did you click through to his home page? now that's an interestingly designed timeline/stream! # 00:50 caseorganic tantek: we should also invite colby alley, his partner in crime. alsojust turned 16 # 00:55 tantek caseorganic - do it! get him to signup on the guest list asap # 00:55 tantek anybody that's pouring that much creativity into their own site, *and* is analyzing facebook to that depth should be at indiewebcamp # 00:57 aaronpk aw his site doesn't accept pingbacks/webmentions, was going to send him a ping! # 00:59 tantek aaronpk - it's still non-trivial to support receiving pingbacks/webmentions # 01:00 tantek in fact when I do code it I may only add support for receiving webmentions and forgo dealing with any XML-RPC nonsense # 01:01 aaronpk that's why I wrote the pingback->webmention bridge # 01:01 aaronpk so nobody should ever have to write xmlrpc nonsense again # 01:01 aaronpk you're more than welcome to use it (it's hosted at pingback.me) # 01:02 tantek oh so then I set my pingback discovery to the bridge which then passes a webmention to my server? # 01:04 tantek oh thanks - was just going to ask for those docs # 01:04 tantek since I didn't see them obviously link to from pingback.me b0bg0d joined the channel
# 01:20 aaronpk haha! step one: First, don't bother with XML-RPC. # 01:21 tantek aaronpk - want to write-up the corresponding "How do I implement sending pingbacks?" # 01:21 tantek (which hopefully can also be done without bothering with XML-RPC :) ) # 01:27 tantek (only nit, UI, not sure the HASHTRAFFIC javascript popups are adding much if anything to the experience) # 01:27 tantek (generic word hashtags on twitter are pretty useless at this point - unless you just want to view mostly subliterate text, sadly enough) # 01:29 tantek we need a good indieweb solution for what hashtags should link to (on indieweb sites) # 01:29 tantek to your own tag page would be great (view all your own posts tagged with … ) # 01:34 aaronpk didn't you link to a google search of that hashtag at some point? # 01:35 aaronpk I used to do that until I implemented a tag page of my own, I thought I based it off of what I saw on your site # 01:37 tantek I use Google for search on my own site - to search my own site chronologically # 01:37 tantek but I've never hyperlinked hashtags in my posts # 01:38 tantek I did say that I was considering doing that a while ago # 01:38 tantek but I really didn't like the results from Google # 01:38 tantek until I can figure out / build something that I like # 01:39 tantek wow it looks like Jackson's site is based on Wordpress # 01:47 tantek and cue Loqi detection of tweet in 3.. 2.. 1... # 01:53 tantek aaronpk - is Loqi no longer watching for #indieweb tweets? # 01:54 Loqi want to know how to best post/POSSE/accept/display comments? b0bg0d, spinnerin, tantek, caseorganic, danbri, friedcell, eschnou, seyz, dpk, barnabywalters, xtof, duckbillp, scor and mxuribe joined the channel
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# 16:20 aaronpk not moving, but our office is now reconfigured and we don't really have space anymore (we're at 14 people now instead of the 6 we were last year) # 16:20 aaronpk I have a lead on another space though, not far away # 16:21 tantek looking forward to hearing about the new space - can it handle about the same number of people? # 16:22 aaronpk yes I believe so. should also be set up better to handle intro/wrapup sessions friedcell joined the channel
# 16:44 aaronpk disappointed I can't filter my friends to invite by searching for everyone in San Francisco # 16:46 aaronpk this is a *lot* of cognitive overhead to look through my whole friends list # 16:47 tantek indeed - it's way to hard to figure out who to invite to events in FB # 16:48 tantek the fact that they're iterating on it means it should be around a while # 16:49 tantek as opposed the domain/site being shutdown 6-18 months post-acquisition # 16:49 tantek re: FB event - just start with a reasonable set of people and make the event public # 16:49 tantek encourage folks to invite others - distribute the problem :) scor joined the channel
# 17:04 aaronpk is there anything like calagator.org for san francisco? # 17:07 aaronpk calagator.org is, the software is open source and there are many instances of it # 17:08 tantek right - from the name it sounds generic to any location ;) # 17:08 tantek might as well post it there and see what happens # 17:09 tantek ok just invited a bunch of people to the FB event - thanks again for posting this (a week in advance even!) # 17:12 tantek make me a co-admin and I can help update the details with transit info etc. texburgher joined the channel
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# 17:19 tantek aaronpk - you already do photos, checkins, and sleep posts on aaronparecki.com? # 17:24 tantek.com edited /projects (+233) "/* experimental */ and p3k goes to the top of this list, since there's two indiewebcamp community members using it" (
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# 17:25 tantek for something developed by one of us? yes, it's a milestone :) # 17:25 tantek barnabywalters did you see the comments/replies discussion from yesterday? # 17:26 barnabywalters tantek: no, I’ll have a read in a bit. Currently up to my nose in iframe/postMessage code # 17:26 tantek and when you get back - wondering if you've posted any replies on your site to other indieweb posts, and then had your POSSEd tweet link back to their POSSEd tweet # 17:27 tantek and aaronpk admits he had to do some of it manually but now better understands the flow of how to do so so he can actually automate it # 17:27 tantek and I myself am still working on implementing simple replies to tweets in Falcon (what you and aaronpk already have working) # 17:28 tantek is wondering if tommorris ever got that working in Ferocity erinjo joined the channel
# 17:30 tantek aaronpk is organizing an indieweb meetup dinner while he's in town next Friday # 17:37 barnabywalters RE placement of comments box before/after comments: yeah, I wonder if any research has been done to determine how effective each approach is. I like facebook’s approach of showing your comment inline with the conversation, and truncating it to the last few items # 17:37 barnabywalters facebook’s overall UI tends towards not being much good, but I think they have lots of little components which are very effective # 17:38 barnabywalters and obviously they have lots of money+people working on getting high engagement # 17:38 tantek " lots of little components which are very effective" - totally agreed # 17:38 barnabywalters although we’ve already determined that they optimise for regular dopamine triggers and that we should be careful about copying that # 17:38 tantek definitely some design inspiration we can steal there # 17:39 barnabywalters i.e. we actually value our content, rather than simply wanting people to interact with it in as many ways as possible :/ # 17:39 tantek frankly, getting some more dopamine triggers on indieweb efforts wouldn't be a bad thing - we're kind of low on that now ;) # 17:39 barnabywalters also RE engagement: consider the amount of friction which goes into writing a facebook comment. Almost none # 17:39 tantek plus, if we actually get people hooked on coming back to our indieweb sites rather than coming back to their silos ... # 17:40 barnabywalters all the context is instantly visible, and you don’t have to move from the keyboard to the mouse # 17:40 tantek consider the amount of friction which goes into writing a comment here on IRC. almost none :) # 17:40 tantek right - agree about having the content/context visible while writing a comment # 17:41 tantek fb.com shows a nice little avatar of you next to the "write a comment…" input box # 17:41 barnabywalters the difference in IRC is that the context IS the original, replied-to content # 17:42 tantek commenting UIs have LOTS of little interesting details that are different from a generic "write a post" UI # 17:42 tantek commenting UIs have evolved A LOT in the last 10 years # 17:43 tantek and sadly, the distributed/decentralized approaches had crappy UIs to begin with (pingback/trackback yuck) and have not evolved at all. # 17:44 tantek so we need to advance the state of the art in distributed commenting UIs # 17:44 tantek leapfrog what everyone else has done while blogging UIs have slumbered # 17:44 barnabywalters hm, this feels like something we could potentially get properly right with a bit of effort # 17:45 barnabywalters in designing the UI we may also find discrepancies between replies and comments dissolving # 17:46 tantek right - I'm not sure what the difference is, if any, between a reply and a comment # 17:46 tantek so I'm going to treat them generically as the same until there's some use-case or data to distinguish them # 17:46 tantek other than, Twitter uses "Reply" in their UI, and Facebook uses "Comment" in their UI. # 17:47 tantek the *only* difference that just popped in my head, is that Twitter replies start with a @-name reference, whereas comments don't necessarily. # 17:47 tantek some comments start with the name of the person being replied to, and some don't (implied from context) # 17:48 tantek so are replies just the subset of comments that start with a name reference? (@-name, URL, other) # 17:49 barnabywalters perhaps. as I say, the distinction is probably not valuable except in contexts which explicitly require it, i.e. twitter # 17:53 tantek ok captured that at least, the question, and our meager thoughts on it # 17:53 barnabywalters lol — I can’t help but think “I’m discussing the differences between a reply and a comment — where did my life go wrong?” ;) # 17:53 tantek I'm fine with just calling them all comments for now # 17:53 tantek barnabywalters - there's a difference between discussing and capturing ;) # 17:54 tantek we capture it on the wiki so we can park the discussion in its current state without feeling a need to discuss it further immediately and come to some grand conclusion :) # 17:54 tantek (incidentally, capturing such partial/incremental discussions seems to be both a challenging/useful skill to learn, and particularly good use for wikis) # 17:55 barnabywalters yeah, I have #indiewebcamp to thank for introducing me to wikis as a thought management system # 18:06 tantek barnabywalters - I'm leaning towards thinking that we do really need a separate design for writing indieweb comments than just what indieweb post authoring UIs provide # 18:06 tantek the context is so important when writing a comment # 18:06 tantek that any comment UI must show the context of what you're commenting about # 18:06 tantek incidentally, such a separate UI could also be the endpoint for a "comment" webaction # 18:07 tantek but cross-site should work as a fallback - and make sense as well # 18:07 barnabywalters at the moment my goal is for my posting UI to detect content I am replying to and load the context into the UI # 18:08 tantek so e.g. if you have a comment webaction button on your post, and I click it, either I get an in-place UI to write a comment post on my own site, or if in-place is too hard (or no JS etc.), then it should take me to the comment webaction endpoint on my site # 18:08 barnabywalters at which point in-place, probably via webactions + iframes is the path I’d take # 18:08 tantek the latter (webaction endpoint on my site) is also likely easier for me to just go implement # 18:08 barnabywalters tantek: we already have #2, and the iframe + postmessage code I was working on earlier is the basis for #1 ;) # 18:09 tantek so I'm working on figuring out how to build #2 because I can build it more quickly # 18:09 tantek and it will also be a good fallback for if/when #1 doesn't work # 18:09 tantek also, #2 is easier to hook into via browser extensions # 18:09 barnabywalters once my iframe+postmessage thing is a little more stable I’ll start documenting it on the wiki # 18:10 tantek whereby, e.g. if I click a "Reply" button on Twitter, the browser extension knows to make that take me to the comment UI on my own site, with the original tweet loaded as context above the text input box # 18:11 tantek implementing #2 on my site, and then hooking it into the webaction toolbelt extension # 18:11 barnabywalters so you actually have a web-based posting UI now? Last time I saw falcon you were writing in BBEdit # 18:12 tantek because I do have a web-based posting confirmation UI (that loads any new unpublished posts it sees in storage) # 18:13 tantek so I can start to add reply context smarts to that # 18:13 barnabywalters it’ll be cool to see different values in the “using” field — I think you’re the only person recording+displaying that information # 18:13 tantek it's all part of adding in-reply-to-status-id support # 18:13 tantek instead of just having a dumb text input for the URL of the tweet I'm replying to, I want my UI to show the tweet I'm replying to # 18:14 tantek I'm designing the UI as if everything I have is already fully web-based, and then I'll adapt what I can to what is implemented, and incrementally move forward from there. # 18:14 Loqi implemented is both long and includes forgettable punctuation # 18:14 barnabywalters might save you some parsing time, if I managed to get the structures all correct # 18:15 tantek barnabywalters - I was just going to call the Twitter APi to retrieve the tweet - but yeah if I can call php-mf2 that would be great! # 18:17 tantek design the desired UI first. from that, design the necessary URLs. from that design the necessary APIs. # 18:17 tantek all product design should start from the user perspective and be designed downward into the code. # 18:18 tantek otherwise too easy to get lost/distracted designing unnecessary or suboptimal APIs # 18:18 tantek (but some people like API design for its own sake, so yeah, they tend to start there - and never actually finish a UI) friedcell joined the channel
# 18:19 tantek start with sketching UIs over and over again until you get something you like. then start figuring out the URLs and the code. eschnou joined the channel
# 18:19 tantek fundamentally, assume HTTP/REST as an API exists and move on from there # 18:20 tantek nice thing with sketching is that it's fun and you don't feel committed to any one sketch. you can always sketch again. quickly. # 18:20 tantek even just sketching out simplifications of others' UIs is helpful # 18:21 tantek and on that note, I'm off for a fastwalk where I'll be thinking/visualizing more about indieweb commenting UIs - and maybe sketching afterwards when I get some coffee. # 18:21 eschnou hi all, I would like to test/debug my pinback implementation tonight, anyone to ping ? # 18:22 eschnou and to get a ping ? # 18:22 tantek yeah - still recovering from an ankle injury - doctor said not to restart running until 6 days from now, so I've been fastwalking instead # 18:22 barnabywalters eschnou: I’m always up for pinging :) Also wordpress.com is a good way of testing pingback support # 18:22 eschnou barnabywalters, :-) actually, when you mentioned me in your latest posts I did not get anything from you... # 18:23 tantek thanks barnabywalters - yes, mostly well but podiatrist wanted to make sure everything was solid before he said it was ok to run again # 18:23 aaronpk eschnou: try a post on aaronparecki.com, or indiewebcamp.com! # 18:23 eschnou tantek, last time I checked it was broken, and mentioned it to aaronpk # 18:24 barnabywalters okay, in theory I just sent pingbacks to aaron, indiewebcamp.com and eschnou.com # 18:25 aaronpk barnabywalters: i didn't see anything...did you get a 'success' reply? # 18:25 eschnou barnabywalters, nothing incoming either :-( # 18:27 eschnou aaronpk, do you syndicate the pingback you receive publicly somewhere ? I just pinged you. # 18:27 aaronpk I should see it in one of my private IRC channels # 18:31 eschnou aaronpk, barnabywalters, thanks ! At least I can ping ;-) # 18:32 eschnou aaronpk, do you mind sending one to me ? # 18:32 aaronpk how come the link is to twitter.com/aaronparecki but the pingback thinks it worked? # 18:37 eschnou aaronpk, huh.. weird indeed, it seems I'm mixing up things and need to fix this # 18:38 eschnou aaronpk, there is a ling to both, one with an empty content, some regex are mixed up in my code :-) # 18:46 aaronpk I think it sent two because of the in-reply-to link as well as me mentinoing you by URL # 18:48 eschnou aaronpk, makes sense, I need to put something in place to detect this and filter duplicates, but at least it works and now I just need some fine tuning. # 18:48 aaronpk cool! are you planning on displaying it as a comment? # 18:56 eschnou aaronpk, yes, it should actually be displayed already, I need to look for what went wrong with yours. # 18:57 aaronpk maybe my markup is bad and it couldn't find the post content? # 18:59 eschnou aaronpk, it definitively is something in the parsing of the markup, not sure where the issue is, I'll let you know ! # 19:00 aaronpk cool thanks! I wouldn't be surprised if I got my markup wrong somewhere # 19:01 aaronpk heading on the plane now, ttyl! thanks for the fun experiment! # 19:05 eschnou aaronpk, we'll continue, let's show them what true federation really is :-) # 19:05 eschnou aaronpk, have a good flight scor, singpolyma, friedcell, friedcell1, b0bg0d, josephboyle, josephboyle1, reidab and tantek joined the channel
# 22:44 tantek !tell eschnou just saw http://eschnou.com/home?tab=1 , including syndication of the pingback from aaronpk - well done! that's awesome that you got all that directly from parsing the h-atom on his permalink page. # 22:44 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next # 22:44 Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next caseorganic joined the channel
# 22:47 aaronpk hmm methinks I should be hosting my own image URLs of people and shrink them down to 32px or something # 22:48 aaronpk or ditch the little minicard markup and try to do all the styling in css only b0bg0d joined the channel
# 23:00 tantek aaronpk - not sure about the whole image URLs of people hosting thing # 23:00 tantek some amount of caching may be good for speed and/or fallback # 23:00 tantek but from a distributed social web perspective, embedding from each person's own site is probably better # 23:00 tantek and heck if we *all* do that, then those images are cached in the browser across sites # 23:00 aaronpk well the main problem i'm noticing is that i'm linking to people's pics and they are all different sizes, and anything downstream doesn't know their size or how to render them # 23:01 tantek so if you load tantek.com and it shows you my avatar icon # 23:01 tantek then when you go to a comment on aaronparecki.com, the image of me is already cached in the browser # 23:01 tantek oh different sizes? just use CSS to resize them # 23:01 tantek so they're all the same within the context that you're using # 23:01 tantek but no reason to cache/host - that seems like too much extra work # 23:02 tantek well anyone who's embedding images from someone else's site has to deal with sizing them # 23:02 aaronpk also RSS readers... CSS doesn't work there, they show the image inline # 23:02 tantek RSS readers look pretty goofy all by themselves # 23:02 tantek and if they want to look consistent, they can resize it however they want, with CSS for web based RSS readers, or natively for RSS reader apps # 23:03 tantek I mean heck they're already using code to make the text look the same # 23:03 aaronpk hah ok I do like the answer "your rss reader sucks, it should be displaying the image better" # 23:04 tantek yeah - RSS readers already have this problem with posts that have images inside them # 23:05 tantek it's the first indieweb post to display an indieweb to indieweb comment inline right in its entirety? (so much better than pingback double ellipsing crap) # 23:06 tantek and since I wrote a "local" comment on that post - it's now showing an example of how you'd display replies from the indieweb and local replies on the same post # 23:06 tantek right now it looks like they go in distinct sections # 23:07 tantek 1. their presentation can be made to look consistent - regardless of where the comment came from # 23:07 tantek 2. they can be listed in chronological order (rather than divided up by section of where they came from) # 23:07 tantek regardless - awesome progress! thanks for helping out eschnou with this - you guys totally rock. b0bg0d and tantek joined the channel
Loqi BETWEEN ALL THE SERVICES http://loqi.me/71e
tantek.com edited /comment (+207) "/* Examples of Replies */ distinguish best practice of threaded POSSE'd tweets vs. adhoc reply practices" (view diff)
@efemurl RT @biancawelds: So I went ahead and replaced Google Reader with a self-hosted Tiny Tiny RSS installation. So far, so good. #indieweb
caseorganic tantek: yes, i think we should invite him to indiewebcamp
tantek oh my goodness he's *this guy*! http://jacksongariety.com/journals/dating-with-graph-search
@t 30 days ago @aaronpk posted the first #indieweb to indieweb reply with threaded POSSE'd tweets: http://t.co/847MRv7a8Z (ttk.me t4PZ1)
waterpigs.co.uk edited /hashtags (+527) "Added WaterPigs.co.uk plus how I do tags, section on discovery problems" (view diff)
aaronparecki.com created /events/2013-04-26-indieweb-meetup (+1084) "Created page with "== Details == === When === <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">2013-04-26</time> from <time class="value">18:30</time></span> <span class="dt-end dtend"> - <time ..."" (view diff)
aaronpk ok there we go https://www.facebook.com/events/509388965790936/
barnabywalters two users? congrats! that’s an indiewebcamp record, no?