#indiewebcamp 2013-05-16

2013-05-16 UTC
saurik, duckbillp, tilgovi, scor, mxuribe, fmarier, spinnerin, josephboyle, b0bg0d, cweiske, seyz, eschnou and andreypopp joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/blog/chronoreve-indieweb-je-veux-bosser-dans-scrivener-et-publier-ou-je-veux-sur-le-web/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/creator-fr (pingback)
peck_lx, andreypopp, b0bg0d, seyz and eschnou joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/blog/chronoreve-indieweb-je-veux-bosser-dans-scrivener-et-publier-ou-je-veux-sur-le-web/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles-fr (pingback)
#
Loqi [mention] http://christopheducamp.com/blog/chronoreve-indieweb-je-veux-bosser-dans-scrivener-et-publier-ou-je-veux-sur-le-web/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE-fr (pingback)
barnabywalters, duckbillp, singpolyma, andreypopp and bnvk joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] http://eschnou.storytlr.net/entry/whats-next-google--dropping-smtp-support--62-24930.html linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (pingback)
scor joined the channel
#
@sophiedennis @BarnabyWalters you'll win me over to this #indieweb stuff yet, I fear... :)
scor and hmans joined the channel
#
hmans \o/
#
pdurbin ?
#
@hmans IndieWebCampUK, September, Brighton: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
#
@abelgone the "Indie Web" movement http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page
duckbillp, jzb and skalawag joined the channel
#
@neverprint In alignment with what I’ve been pondering for a little while:
mxuribe, friedcell, barnabywalters, duckbillp and hmans joined the channel
#
@nkoehring http://indiewebcamp.com/principles love it!
barnabywalters, peck_lx, spindritf, andreypopp, duckbillp, polyrahul and moncky joined the channel
#
moncky hello
#
tommorris hey moncky
#
moncky I stumbled across a link for your porject in an article by Laurent Eschenauer
#
moncky I've been meaning to dabble in doing this for a while
#
tommorris moncky: well, you've come to the right place. There's plenty of people here who are doing this stuff
#
tommorris I run tommorris.org - barnabywalters runs waterpigs.co.uk - tantek runs tantek.com - aaronpk runs aaronparecki.com
#
pdurbin moncky: which article, please?
#
moncky pdurbin: http://preview.tinyurl.com/bywg3s4
#
pdurbin http://eschnou.com/entry/whats-next-google--dropping-smtp-support--62-24930.html
#
moncky via ycombinator or reddit or some other time sink :)
#
barnabywalters greetings moncky, welcome to #indiewebcamp
#
barnabywalters do you currently have a personal site?
#
pdurbin 'With Hangouts, Singhal says Google had to make the difficult decision to drop the very "open" XMPP standard that it helped pioneer.' -- http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/15/4318830/inside-hangouts-googles-big-fix-for-its-messaging-mess
#
tommorris (Google evil is pushing me towards adopting fastmail.fm for email.)
#
moncky I am pretty firmly rooted in googles bug furry arms at present
#
moncky s/bug/big
#
Loqi moncky meant to say: I am pretty firmly rooted in googles big furry arms at present
#
pdurbin so how long will I be able to log into my Google account via XMPP with Pidgin (or whatever)?
#
pdurbin oh good, it still works today
#
moncky its a shame as Google have generally been good at making sure there is an open standard behind $project they do
#
barnabywalters I get the impression google has changed — and is now based entirely around G+
#
barnabywalters which has nothing open whatsoever :(
#
pdurbin when they launched G+ Google talked about future interop
#
moncky wasnt that the thing before
#
moncky Google Wave
#
barnabywalters pdurbin: any hope of that I had was quashed by tantek’s earlier posts from IO RE PuSH
#
pdurbin nope
#
moncky that was supposed to be properly federated, but nobody used it and all it could do was what twitter did better at the time
#
pdurbin g+ supposedly is/was built on activity streams or something. some standard or other
#
barnabywalters pdurbin: the *write only* API looks very like AS (I think mainly because some of the people behind AS work on G+)
#
barnabywalters oops, *read only*
#
pdurbin ok
#
pdurbin i mean, I still prefer g+ to facebook
#
barnabywalters but nothing was ever really built to consume/parse activitystreams, or do anything useful with it — apart from statusnet+pump.io
#
barnabywalters pdurbin: my take on both is that they’re useful silos to POSSE content from, and useful places to do design research
#
barnabywalters G+ hangouts and events are useful tools
#
barnabywalters as a social network/content publishing tool — meh
#
cweiske oh, we use activity stream @work
#
pdurbin yeah, I can't be bothered to POSSE right now but I hear ya
#
barnabywalters cweiske: cool, where do you work?
#
cweiske jira, an issue tracker provides activity streams
#
barnabywalters cweiske: and you pipe them somewhere/do something with them?
#
cweiske we parse them in our time tracking tool to automatically set the ticket we have been working on
eschnou joined the channel
#
cweiske we do the same for git commits exposed by gitorious
#
cweiske when you want to book the time you worked, it parses the git commits from now to the last booked time and finds out which tickets you have worked on
#
cweiske but gitorious only provides an atom feed
#
cweiske no activity stream
#
eschnou !tell aaronpk Did you see the top post on HN ? :-) I hope you don't mind me re-using your awesome yahoo mail image. (http://eschnou.com/entry/62-24930.html)
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
barnabywalters eschnou: congratulations on the top-of-HN post :)
#
pdurbin oh, eschnou is in here. duh :)
#
moncky eschnou: well it drove at least one person into the channel :)
#
eschnou barnabywalters, thanks, it seems indeed it struck quite a nerve, and the timing was quite good
#
eschnou pdurbin, moncky, nice meeting you !
#
aaronpk eschnou: whoa awesome!
#
Loqi aaronpk: eschnou left you a message 3 minutes ago: Did you see the top post on HN ? :-) I hope you don't mind me re-using your awesome yahoo mail image. (http://eschnou.com/entry/62-24930.html)
#
www.kickflop.net edited /Events (+1) (view diff)
#
aaronpk holy cow that's a lot of comments on HN
#
eschnou aaronpk, when the storm is past us, would be nice to know how much traffic I sent your way
#
pdurbin eschnou: gonna add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People ?
#
eschnou aaronpk, I'm at 15k+ unique visitors right now
#
aaronpk whoa nice
#
eschnou pdurbin, ha.. the wiki... there is so much I'm supposed to add in there :-)
#
eschnou too bad Loqi can't do that for me :-)
#
Loqi yeah!
#
aaronpk holy cow http://googleappsdeveloper.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/introducing-actions-in-inbox-powered-by.html
#
eschnou aaronpk, are you at IO as well ?
#
aaronpk eschnou: I'm in SF, but I don't have a ticket
#
aaronpk came down for our Esri / Stackmob / Tropo party last night
#
aaronpk eschnou: ah that explains why that post of mine is getting tweeted a bunch right now!
#
eschnou aaronpk, I must say this picture was awesome. I looked for a license attached to it but didn't find any. Is your stuff cc? I'm missing such a statement on my site as well.
tantek joined the channel
#
aaronpk my text is explicitly CC (see the footer) but I haven't decided what license to make my other content
#
tantek aaronpk I heard about the Google's "email actions" but hadn't seen the details til that link
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek some additional proprietary similar-art fodder for our web actions work
#
tantek glad that they're reframing it as actions, instead of intents at least
#
aaronpk eschnou: glad that pic got put to good use!
#
aaronpk and yes you're definitely sending traffic my way!
#
aaronpk currently have 16 unique visitors in google's realtime view. that's going to add up to a lot!
#
eschnou aaronpk, nice !!
#
eschnou aaronpk, I'm currently at 400 active in analytics realtime view, so 5% must be following up to you, not bad, I hope it did the same for indiewebcamp.com
#
aaronpk ooh let me check
#
aaronpk wow 400 is a ton
#
aaronpk what happened on Apr 24? there was a nice spike
#
aaronpk eschnou: indiewebcamp has 4 in realtime, so that might be a 1% clickthrough
#
aaronpk oh at 6 now
#
aaronpk great, so definitely some people are clicking through!
b0bg0d joined the channel
#
eschnou aaronpk, on APr24 it was tantek post on the federation
#
aaronpk oh wow up to 14 now
polyrahul joined the channel
#
eschnou aaronpk, I'm at 25k uniques... so it should be 1~2k uniques for you, not bad heh :-)
#
aaronpk holy cow
tantek joined the channel
#
cweiske why do people in #indiewebcamp use google services?
#
aaronpk cause it's almost impossible not to
#
eschnou cweiske, well, I don't think it is incompatible, indiewebcamp is about identity, content ownership, etc...
#
cweiske piwik as alternative to google analytics
#
barnabywalters cweiske: I use google + for hangouts occasionally, and google docs when work asks me to. apart from that, search whenever DDG doesn’t satisfy me
#
eschnou and google has a lot of convenient services
#
barnabywalters cweiske++ on piwik
#
Loqi cweiske has 1 karma
#
cweiske i thought indie is short for "independent"?}
#
eschnou cweiske, sure.... but it is also a spirit of one step at a time :-)
#
aaronpk some of us are also pragmatists
#
aaronpk I installed piwik, but stopped using it because I don't want to worry about maintaining yet another service
#
barnabywalters aaronpk: I know what you mean (feel the same way about openphoto), but piwik updates itself nicely and it’s private so you don’t have to worry about the URLs going away too much
#
tommorris cweiske: I use Google services because perfection is hard. ;)
#
aaronpk the scope of indiewebcamp is more about identity ownership vs exclusively privacy/data ownership. the data ownership that's important right now is the data relating to your identity.
#
cweiske does someone know a method to distribute his public ssh keys via the web?
#
cweiske so servers can automatically configure itself to let me e.g. push git commits
#
aaronpk that's why I use things like gmail (to send and receive email from my domain), google analytics, etc. and have built indieweb things like IndieAuth (auth as a service), and pingback.me (pingback+webmention as a service) since those are not part of your identity, just a service that can be used
#
tantek cweiske: See hCard's key property. People are publishing their public key discoverably in this way right now.
#
aaronpk eschnou: your post got copied here! it just sent me a pingback http://neighborhoodhacker.com/laurent-eschenauer-whats-next-google-dropping-smtp-support/
#
cweiske tantek, that seems to be gpg only
#
tantek cweiske: See http://microformats.org/wiki/key-examples for current real world usage and use cases.
#
cweiske not ssh keys
#
barnabywalters certified ethical hackers for hire? wut?
#
cweiske nor ssl client certificates
#
tantek cweiske: That may be. Perhaps use that as a staring point for how to publish an ssh public key?
#
cweiske tantek, how would you distiniguish the different key types from each other?
#
barnabywalters h-x-ssh-key?
#
barnabywalters or, u-x-ssh-key, rather
#
cweiske class="key u-x-ssh-key"?
#
tantek One problem at a time. ;)
marjolein joined the channel
#
tantek cweiske: Perhaps link to them with different rel/type attribute values?
#
cweiske type would be a good idea
#
tantek Not sure how use/human friendly it is to have keys on the page - is this just for server discovery or do we expect people to copy/paste them from web pages?
#
barnabywalters some keys have human-memorable mnemonics, right?
#
barnabywalters knows zilch about crypto
#
cweiske for gpg there are shortcuts, yes
#
cweiske but for ssh and ssl client certs: no
#
cweiske because there are gpg key servers
#
cweiske so you basically only link to the key server if you use a short ID
#
cweiske tantek, yes, they are for servers only
#
barnabywalters I was thinking <data class="u-ssh-key" value="long machine readable">human readable</data>
#
cweiske so your appliations can autoconfigure themselves for you when you log in the first time
#
cweiske e.g. register at gitorious.org and it automatically sets up the ssh keys for you
#
cweiske so you don't have to configure anything
#
cweiske and immediately can "git push"
#
barnabywalters cweiske: ooh, that would be cool
#
barnabywalters that’s a great use case
#
cweiske or a web application that you register for and is available on SSL and supports automatic login via client certificates
hmans joined the channel
#
cweiske you register, and it automatically associates your SSL client certificate with your account
#
cweiske and you only have to call their HTTPS url a
#
cweiske and are logged in
#
cweiske magically
#
cweiske through the ssl client cert
#
cweiske if you're interested in this topic: http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/ssl-client-certificates.htm
#
hmans You probably get this a lot, but what is your stance on Persona/BrowserID?
#
cweiske I know browserid from the days when it was centralized
#
cweiske so it was no option
#
cweiske haven't looked at it since then
#
barnabywalters hmans: IMO personal/browserID is a perfectly good way of doing email based login, and the fact you can host your own server is great.
#
barnabywalters personally I prefer to identify myself with just my domain name, but persona is a nice fallback
#
hmans Well, the only dropin kludge for navigator.id.getVerifiedEmail is still provided by Mozilla via persona.org.
#
tommorris I like BrowserID and use it because it's simple and doesn't require me to get any API keys from anybody
#
hmans I like what indieauth is doing, but it also locks out everyone who doesn't have their own site.
#
barnabywalters yeah, the simplicity of browserID is a huge benefit
#
cweiske SSL client certs are the fastest way to log in
#
cweiske you just click "ok"
#
cweiske and that's it
#
hmans Yeah.
#
hmans Anyone using those in production? I haven't been keeping up.
#
barnabywalters cweiske: I’m certainly interested in implementing that on my own site
#
cweiske have to go. bb
b0bg0d, tenmilestereo, tantek, spinnerin, eschnou, seyz, barnabywalters, josephboyle, andreypopp and singpoly1a joined the channel
#
tantek in the G+ sign-in session here at #io
#
tantek at #googleio
#
@eschnou @steveklabnik It is too bad your blog did not send a pingback to mine btw... fancy adding some #indieweb support ?
#
eschnou tantek, so you managed to get some wifi :-)
#
eschnou tantek, I've seen your note about no plans for feed and PuSH in G+... so so sad...
#
tantek I did!
#
tantek on the 3rd floor
#
tantek yeah
#
eschnou tantek, I wonder what all the open web enthusiasts like chris, john, joseph, brett, etc... are thinking about this.
#
tantek sad about not even on the radar re: G+ / PuSH
#
tantek all the open web enthusiasts are having trouble "selling" open web internally
#
tantek Google's cultural DNA appears to lack open server-side web standards
fmarier joined the channel
#
eschnou tantek, it's crazy, I had hoped for a while all these guys got hired by G for a reason... seems not the reason I hoped for.
#
eschnou tantek, ho well... at least WE have federation :-)
#
tantek they got hired because they were good at understanding this broader space of social web stuff
#
tantek but apparently not for open
#
tantek ironic, because they made their names and got known by working on open
#
tantek and then got hired to work on not-open
#
tantek eschnou - indeed, we, the indieweb, are going to have to build our federation up to a critical mass
#
tantek we cannot hope or wait for any silos to help us
#
eschnou tantek, indeed, maybe smaller one who could benefit of the scale/network effect of federation
#
tantek federation will be pioneered by the long tail, not the fat head
#
eschnou tantek, have a great IO anyway, it is still a really nice conference, I'm sad not having been able to join this year.
#
eschnou I'm off for today, cheers all
#
tantek it's ok
#
tantek cheers, have a good night eschnou!
#
Loqi don't let the bed bugs bite
#
tantek feel free to add any questions to https://etherpad.mozilla.org/googleio
#
eschnou I'll have a look !
andreypopp, b0bg0d, scor, benwerd, spinnerin and moncky joined the channel
#
@t #io: Thus Google+ sign-in &amp
#
Loqi Interactive Posts get us closer to enabling #indieweb #POSSE but not there yet. #io2013 (ttk.me t4Q14)
fmarier and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek check out my longtweet hack using replying to myself without any @-references to extend a tweet: https://twitter.com/t/status/335170810673250305 :)
#
@t #io: Thus Google+ sign-in &amp
#
Loqi Interactive Posts get us closer to enabling #indieweb #POSSE but not there yet. #io2013 (ttk.me t4Q14)
#
tantek (you have to click the permatweetlink to see the threading on Twitter)
andreypopp and tantek joined the channel
#
@wavis @t what else is on the #POSSE wish list? #indieweb
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek and my reply to @wavis: https://twitter.com/t/status/335176559960936448
#
@t @wavis silo #POSSE wishlist: sign-into silo, enter URL, silo subscribe+syndicate PuSH updates, rel=canonical link back (ttk.me t4Q15)
#
tantek being able to @-reply from my own site is so liberating. I love it.
#
@BarnabyWalters @t @wavis my wish list is “no more need for POSSE” ;) #indieweb (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1424/)
#
pdurbin +1
#
tantek indeed
#
tantek or at least no new POSSE
#
tantek it's going to be a while before everyone I know gives up on Twitter, Facebook
#
@wavis RT @BarnabyWalters: @t @wavis my wish list is “no more need for POSSE” ;) #indieweb (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1424/)