#indiewebcamp 2013-06-29

2013-06-29 UTC
#
@Johannes_Ernst
RT @ozten: New Post: Persona Incentives for Adoption http://ozten.com/psto/2013/06/25/persona-incentives-for-adoption/ in reply to @Johannes_Ernst #mozilla #persona #IndieWebCamp
scor joined the channel
#
tommorris
tommorris.org has had a seasonal makeover. be sure to check it out.
scor and ozten joined the channel
#
pdurbin
tommorris: you might be interested in this: http://irclog.greptilian.com/sourcefu/2013-06-28
bret joined the channel
#
@mohand_mmoo
RT @t: @kevinmarks I've got #POSSE working to Twitter, and even replies too.
#
@mohand_mmoo
@t @kevinmarks #POSSE #indiewebcamp
#
bret
ozten: how did the camlistore expedition go?
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+141) "/* 0.1 types */ make the list of post types explicit"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+71) "/* Level 0 */ rel-me is part of indieauth, stick to microformats2 for the "some content" requirement, more than one h-entry"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+1103) "come up with concrete counts for Level 1"
(view diff)
#
bret
nice
#
tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+638) "/* POSSEs */ make an exception for those who minimize (like bret.io) or especially eliminate their silo dependence."
(view diff)
#
bret
awww you are too kind
#
bret
It would be cool to get posse working statically somehow
#
tantek
but where would you POSSE to?
#
tantek
that was why we added the clauses there we did
#
bret
Me? I dont care to
#
bret
i think I need to re-figure out why I am doing static only. I was thinking about it and the primary connivence was due to github hosting.
#
tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+100) "/* Level 3 */ require display full content rich [[reply-contexts]] ("
(view diff)
#
bret
I was thinking of doing a comic along the lines of http://www.airburst.co.uk/junkboxinstruments/misc/index.htm
#
bret
but with the concept of the indieweb
#
bret
ie This is a h-entry
#
bret
this is another
#
bret
this is a webmention
#
bret
Now go form the indieweb
caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+36) "/* Level 2 */ tbd rating review"
(view diff)
#
bret
maybe there could be facebook like wall functions
#
bret
IE, trusted domains could actually proactively send you a message to display in your stream
#
bret
without having to reply to something
#
bret
maybe it could be some cryptographic based implementation to establish trust or something
#
bret
ideas
#
tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+221) "/* areas */ some possible levels for some other areas - to be integrated into the level definitions"
(view diff)
#
tantek
bret if you do a comic, be sure to post it on your own site, and implement it as the comics post type: http://indiewebcamp.com/comics
#
bret
im hoping to post my IWC roundup this evening
#
bret
ill post it to news.indiewebcamp.com
andreypopp and erikmaarten joined the channel
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
spinnerin joined the channel
#
erikmaarten
!tell barnabywalters: there seems to be a problem installing mf-cleaner with Composer. mf-cleaner requires tantek/cassis, but "no matching package found". Perhaps a minimum-stability issue?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
erikmaarten
!tell barnabywalters: sorry, mf-cleaner requires helpers, which require tantek/cassis.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
caseorganic.com
edited /site-deaths (+2506) "/* Upcoming */ Added Yahoo properties to shut down, including Altavista"
(view diff)
andreypopp joined the channel
#
bret
already found an error in the syndication
#
tommorris
morning all
#
bret
hey tom
#
@nchenga
RT @pfefferle: @nchenga btw. you can find a list of wordpress plugins here http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
#
bret.io
edited /IRC_People (+1) "Updated my old domain to my new domain"
(view diff)
aaronpk, melvster, brixen_, singpolyma, andreypopp and tantek joined the channel
#
Loqi
tantek: caseorganic left you a message 2 hours, 50 minutes ago: yahoo shutdown news: http://yahoo.tumblr.com/post/54125001066/keeping-our-focus-on-whats-next
#
tommorris
put out a festive site design for just this weekend. ;) http://tommorris.org/
seyz joined the channel
#
bret
woop!
#
tantek
!tell caseorganic my goodness they really weren't done killing things, per http://tantek.com/2013/169/t6/yahoo-not-done-killing-osb2013-ownyourdata
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
bret
tantek you still have your upcoming link
#
tantek
where?
#
bret
on your Elsewhere sidebar
#
tantek
yeah :(
#
bret
its one of the nicer logos i have to say
#
tommorris
toasts to departed friends.
#
bret
tommorris are you accepting post replies?
#
bret
i mean displaying them
#
tommorris
not yet. haven't had time to build out the functionality
#
bret
what about collecting webmentions?
#
tommorris
yeah, not doing that yet
#
tommorris
I've built the display functionality but it is manual
#
bret
In response to your RSS problem, its not idea, but fever works okay
#
bret
at least its faster than newsblur
#
tommorris
yeah, I'm looking at feedbin
#
bret
feedbin looks alright, have not tried it
#
bret
works with reeder right? I love my offline caching for my phone
#
bret
whoa new firefox logo
#
tommorris
well, it works with Reeder on iPhone, but they haven't yet sorted out Reeder for iPad and Mac
#
tommorris
Reeder for Mac is the killer for me - I do most of my RSS reading on my laptop on the way to work
#
bret
someone needs to write an h-atom parser and implement it into a feed reader
#
tommorris
they are removing Reeder for Mac and iPad from the App Stores on July 1 because they won't work with anything else but Google Reader for a while
#
bret
yikes
#
bret
you could try to sneak by uins the iphone app
#
bret
it works really well
#
bret
using*
#
tommorris
yeah, but I'd then have to use my iPod touch for reading everything
#
@reederapp/status/350244294847770624/photo/1
- the Reeder guy is working on the iPad app
#
@reederapp
More on the iPad update soon. Still needs some work. https://twitter.com/reederapp/status/350244294847770624/photo/1
#
bret
good time to open source the desktop app and accept pull requests
#
tommorris
OS X version as open source loss leader for the iPhone/iPad versions ;)
#
bret
exactly
#
bret
i wish newsblur wasnt such a hassle to self host
#
bret
i also wish "reeder support for news blur will likely never happen" wasnt the reality
#
tommorris
so, I have a copy of ReadKit, which is an offline Instapaper client for OS X
#
tommorris
it supports Newsbin
#
tommorris
that may be the answer
#
tommorris
Feedbin rather
#
bret
i have little trust in most small mac app developers
#
bret
so many seem to be so slow to keep up or eventually abandon their apps
#
tommorris
just trying feedbin
#
tommorris
it imports Google Reader starred.json files too
#
bret
thats neat
#
bret
i kind of just cut my losses
#
tommorris
my starred.json is 97.2 Mb
#
bret
haha! whacha gonna do with all those stars? yikes!
#
bret
that works :)
pfefferle joined the channel
#
aaronpk
bret: awesome indieweb roundup!
#
aaronpk
i gave it an upvote on indienews ;)
#
aaronpk
tho now that people are publishing "likes", really an upvote should just be a syndicated "like"
pfefferle joined the channel
#
pfefferle
as mentioned yesterday, i am experimenting with a push enabled feed reader… with the focus on the content independent new push spec...
#
pfefferle
for that i am updating my php-libs (namespaces, new spec…)
#
pfefferle
are you interested to release it under the hood of the indieweb repo?
#
pfefferle
that is the old one based on Josh Frasers code https://github.com/pfefferle/pubsubhubbub-php i will keep it as is, because of wordpress and their lack of php support
pfefferle_, scor, bnvk, sandeepshetty and pfefferle joined the channel
#
sandeepshetty
/msg nickserv help
erikmaarten and sandeepshetty joined the channel
#
tantek
who here is working on building / integrating a personal feed reader into their personal site? i.e. so you can read what your friends are saying and seamlessly reply right there inline and have it post your replies to your own site?
#
tantek
opens Google Reader one last time to see if I missed anything.
#
tantek
looks like Twitter turned off Atom feeds on 2012-10-09
#
sandeepshetty
raises his hands
#
sandeepshetty
excited about some feed stuff I'm doing. more when I have something to show :)
#
sandeepshetty
(which should be tomorrow :)
#
tantek
sandeepshetty - ok that's good to know
#
tantek
I had heard people talking about it but wasn't sure who had prioritized it as an itch or a "working on"
#
tantek
sandeepshetty - perhaps consider adding a "Working On" section to http://indiewebcamp.com/Converspace?
#
tantek
Similar to indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Working_On (hey Aaronpk is that section empty? are you not working on anything? or just haven't bubbled some itches up to working on?)
#
tantek
or here's another Working On section example: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
#
tantek
(I tend to overthink things before I code them :) )
#
tantek
so it looks like maybe I just haven't opened Google Reader since 2012-10-09?
#
tantek
here's a major flaw (comparing RSS readers to Email). If I don't open the reader, it fails to read/receive posts. Whereas email queues up whether I open the Email reader or not.
#
tantek.com
edited /aggregation (+34) "see also"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /aggregators (+850) "added new criticism section with Fails to aggregate if not open"
(view diff)
#
sandeepshetty
tantek: I prefer that
#
tantek
sandeepshetty - I think I prefer it for some sources. Others I want to read every post.
#
tantek
it's source dependent for me. not plumbing (Atom vs SMTP) dependent
#
tantek
it's just plain dumb that feeds work that way by default
#
tantek
an accident of lazy implementation
#
tantek
especially for server based readers like Google Reader
#
tantek
they could have had a setting like [x] aggregate on the server
#
tantek
or something
#
tantek
interesting, twitter returns HTTP 406 Not Acceptable for requests to what used to be their Atom feeds.
#
tantek
can you upload to indiewebcamp.com too?
#
tantek.com
edited /2013 (+90) "embed the group photo from Flickr til aaronpk uploads one ;)"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
tantek: I already did :) it's on the home page
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /IndieAuth () "(-568) /* Issues */"
(view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (-89) "events!"
(view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+145) "/* Events */"
(view diff)
andreypopp joined the channel
#
tantek
woot!
#
Loqi
woot
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /File:indie-web-camp-2013.jpg (+72) "also posted on flickr"
(view diff)
#
tantek
judging from various Google Reader subscriptions - it really does look like a huge amount of feeds died in 2011
#
aaronpk
the feeds stopped publishing?
#
tantek
looks like it - or URLs died
#
tantek
RSS has been dying for a while
#
lionzan.me
created /User:Lionzan.me (+1207) "Created page with "just started to reclaim my online identity, see http://lionzan.me/oir/ Clearly I have a lot of road ahead, but I started! Actually as you can read from the posts, I started writ...""
(view diff)
#
tantek
another pattern I'm noticing is that a lot of sites have their feed for anything at /feed appended to the path
#
tantek
not format specific
#
tantek
for anyone who wants to just publish a stream of posts without home page furniture links etc., that might be a good pattern
#
tantek
and then just post simply styled h-entry posts there, at /feed
#
aaronpk
furniture links??
#
tantek
aaronpk - the stuff around the sides
#
tantek
that hangs around
#
tantek
even when the content in the middle changes :)
#
tantek
and apparently I have 0 starred items in Google Reader. right then, buy bye.
#
aaronpk
i have lots of that
#
tantek
buh bye I mean
#
tantek
good riddance Google Reader - you never supported proper Atom parsing of XHTML anyway.
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+523) "/* Itching */ add a comment prompt when there are no comments"
(view diff)
pfefferle joined the channel
#
aaronpk
hm is there the concept of an "author" for an h-event?
#
tantek
what would that mean?
#
aaronpk
not sure
#
tantek
events have organizers, not authors
#
aaronpk
i just changed the class on my h-entry to h-event and now I see an author of the h-event :)
#
tantek
posts have authors
#
tantek
I think you still want an h-entry when you post about an event
#
aaronpk
yes, but this is for the event itself
#
tantek
but on an event permalink page - you want an h-event
#
tantek
events themselves don't have authors - unless they're booksignings ;)
#
Loqi
ahaha
#
pfefferle
YQL is still alive
ozten joined the channel
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /2013/UK (-5) "fix url"
(view diff)
sandeepshetty joined the channel
#
lionzan.me
edited /projects (+58) "/* Jekyll */"
(view diff)
#
lionzan.me
edited /projects (+2) "/* Jekyll */"
(view diff)
ozten joined the channel
#
aaronpk
ugh, php datetime doesn't support setting only timezone offsets, you have to set an actual timezone
#
JonathanNeal
https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5889625 - this draft (hopefully) describes how JSON content will work in a management system I am building.
#
aaronpk
i may need to write a new datetime class
#
JonathanNeal
Let me know if you happen to notice an easier way of describing the system.
caseorganic joined the channel
#
Loqi
caseorganic: tantek left you a message 9 hours, 45 minutes ago: my goodness they really weren't done killing things, per http://tantek.com/2013/169/t6/yahoo-not-done-killing-osb2013-ownyourdata
#
caseorganic
!tell Tantek - there are still a few more things left.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
bnvk, bnvk_ and bnvk__ joined the channel
#
bret
aaronpk: Replacing upvotes with syndicated likes is a good idea
#
bret
aaronpk: also, it looks like something went a little wrong when your site parsed my note:
#
aaronpk
ah there is no space between the URL and the <p> tag
#
aaronpk
<a class="u-in-reply-to" href="http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb">@aaronparecki.com</a><p>How cool! Really great work.</p>
#
bret
derp
#
bret
ill fix that
#
aaronpk
i don't think I support comment updates yet /
#
bret
well, I'll fix on my end, and resend a mention when you do
#
aaronpk
i think i want to store versions of comments internally so I can at least see if something was updated
#
bret
That makes sense. Especially if you reply to it
#
aaronpk
oh yea hah
#
aaronpk
I like how twitter avoided that problem entirely by not allowing updates
#
bret
I was playing around with my git repo for my site last night
#
bret
I can go back to any point in time and see what the site looked like
#
aaronpk
oh yea good point
#
bret
More of a curiosity than anything else
caseorganic joined the channel
#
bret
Say I have a list of stories on a page marked with h-entry. Does each story have to have an h-card in it? Or could I somehow reference a single h-card somewhere else on the page in each h-entry?
friedcell, andreypopp and sandeepshetty joined the channel
#
aaronpk
bret: this should have the info you need http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
#
bret
thanks
#
aaronpk
not sure how many people have actually implemented that algorithm yet, but that's the right idea
#
erikmaarten
aaronpk: I think you do support updates :) I tried resending a webmention to you, and although an already_registered error was returned the mention was updated
#
aaronpk
oh dear
#
bret
so you can link to another page with the h-card
#
bret
in theory
#
bret
neat
#
aaronpk
erikmaarten: do you know what page you sent it to?
sandeepshetty_\ joined the channel
#
erikmaarten
yes, I have it here somewhere, one second ...
#
erikmaarten
I noticed my microformatting wasn't quite ok, so I tried resending and was a bit surprised that it updated on the spot :)
#
aaronpk
figured it out
#
aaronpk
when I check if the site links to my page, that part of the code goes and updates the remote file on disk. so by the time my code replies "already registered" the file has already been updated
#
aaronpk
guess i'll need to re-evaluate that whole flow now that we have the CRUD spec
#
bret
woops
#
aaronpk
where did the whole thing about CRUD go on the wiki?
#
aaronpk
oh i think it's just inline here http://indiewebcamp.com/comment
bnvk joined the channel
#
erikmaarten
I think I might just enable deleting and updating for a short time period after the original webmention
#
aaronpk
that seems safer
bnvk joined the channel
#
erikmaarten
and also, there is no risk of losing important parts of conversations
#
aaronparecki.com
created /CRUD (+344) "Created page with "{{stub}} CRUD refers to the ability to Create, Read, Update and Delete [[comments]] and [[posts]]. == Create == * [[comment#Make_a_comment]] * [[posts]] == Read == * [[comment...""
(view diff)
#
aaronparecki.com
created /crud (+18) "redirect crud -> CRUD"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
there we go, that makes it easier to find
bnvk_ joined the channel
#
erikmaarten
working on a filter for arbitrary number of tags/categories -- proved trickier than I thought ...
bnvk, friedcell, scor, andreypopp, caseorganic and tantek joined the channel
#
Loqi
tantek: caseorganic left you a message 3 hours, 56 minutes ago: - there are still a few more things left.
#
caseorganic
!tell yes - just a very few
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
caseorganic, sadly true
#
tantek
who is yes?
#
yes
hello
#
Loqi
yes: caseorganic left you a message 1 minute ago: - just a very few
#
tantek
hey Loqi, you can be spoofed for !tell message delivery
#
Loqi
dude
#
caseorganic
tantek: woah - that's fantastic. i'm going to be using this in the future
ozten, bnvk and tantek joined the channel
#
sandeepshetty
!tell tantek: (Re: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship) Why not move 3.1.3 up and make it 3.1 and push the rest of the rules down?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
sandeepshetty
tantek: Just left you a msg
#
tantek
sandeepshetty because there's an expectation that an hCard at the destination of the rel-author will be richer (e.g. have an avatar) than the one on the post page
#
Loqi
tantek: sandeepshetty left you a message 1 minute ago: (Re: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship) Why not move 3.1.3 up and make it 3.1 and push the rest of the rules down?
#
tantek
because if they're using rel-author, they literally may only have a link
#
tantek
and one of the primary use-cases of authorship discovery is to retrieve an avatar for the person
#
sandeepshetty
makes sense. thanks. I keep forgetting that rels are meant to point ->
#
sandeepshetty
actually I was thinking in the context of a feed when it usually points to the same (home) page
#
sandeepshetty
(h-feed on home page)
#
tantek
sandeepshetty - good questions. I'm documenting use-cases and design notes on the authorship page as a result.
#
sandeepshetty
It looks like the h-feed p-name on sandeep.io will have to be hidden because I can't think of a place to add it in the content other than the html.head.title tag
#
tantek.com
edited /authorship (+2054) "explicitly document use-cases and design notes to provide background into why the authorship algorithm works the way it does."
(view diff)
#
tantek
sandeep that can work actually
#
tantek
<html class="h-feed"> … <title class="p-name">sandeep.io</title>
#
tantek
try it
#
tantek
is working on fixing / updating / improving his reply posting code today.
#
sandeepshetty
oh.. that's great.. didn't think of applying it to html and head tags
#
sandeepshetty
not used to applying class attribute to non-body tags
#
tantek
as of HTML5, class is allowed on <html> <head> <title> <meta> etc., and as of microformats2, parsers are required to support it
#
tantek
get it working and I'll add your site as an example of how to do so on the microformats h-feed page :)
#
sandeepshetty
so other than uf how do adding classes to non-body tags help?
#
tantek
browsers have styled those elements for years, so you can use CSS also
#
sandeepshetty
tantek: what does it mean to style those elements when they are not visible (except maybe title)?
#
tantek
they are only not visible because they are display:none by default in the UA stylesheet
#
tantek
parsed microformats looking good!
#
sandeepshetty
hmm.. just noticed the display:none.. since the head only has tags.. nothing wil show up though and I tried adding some free-form content inside head but that messes up the dom
#
tantek
yes it does - HTML doesn't really support free form content there
#
tantek
due to backcompat reasons
bnvk joined the channel
#
tantek
thanks sandeepshetty. h-feed page updated.
#
sandeepshetty
hmm.. the fallback to treat title as p-name means one more pass at the html (especially if you're using php-mf2... how about also an alternative to use the page's URL as p-name?
#
tantek
what do you mean by fallback?
#
sandeepshetty
when h-feed is missing
#
sandeepshetty
(parsing rules)
#
tantek
ah yes - that's reasonable
#
pdurbin
you're welcome anytime :)
#
sandeepshetty
tantek: #microformats and it's wiki receives a lot of spam :)
#
sandeepshetty
how do they get past the recaptha on the wiki?
#
tantek
they are all done by hand by a human
#
tantek
I think any new wiki I start I will require indieauth
#
tantek
or at least relmeauth / web sign-in
#
sandeepshetty
pdurbin: was meaning to ask sivoais about a real world implementation like that... will drop later maybe.
#
tantek
aaronpk - thanks for starting the CRUD article - had been meaning to do that :)