#indiewebcamp 2013-07-01

2013-07-01 UTC
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bret
yeah it seems to work now
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bret
cool
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bret
openid is confusing
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aaronpk
agreed
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bret
but that one paragraph in the IWC wiki cleared all the confusion up
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aaronpk
oh good
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bret
in terms of making it work
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aaronpk
we used to use openid for the wiki logins before indieauth was around
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aaronpk
hm what is the commonly-recognized name of the Google Authenticator system
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aaronpk
Google Authenticator is just the name of one app that can generate the codes, seems like the algorithm is called TOTP, but I don't think that's very freindly sounding
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bret
Two factor authentication?
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aaronpk
it's not really two factor if there isn't another factgor
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bret
drop box calls it that, same with ICBIT
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aaronpk
usually this is used in conjunction with a password, but in this case it's just going to be one factor, the code
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bret
wow open ID is insane
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bret
there are like 3 different profile settings?
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bret
wtf?
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bret
Talk about trying to do too much
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aaronpk
wow TOTP is like magic
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aaronpk
this is totally going to work
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bret
the second factor could be a password
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aaronpk
no passwords!
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bret
no passwords!
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aaronpk
better
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aaronpk
tantek: continuing the password-less login trend, i'm about 70% done adding google authenticator support to indieauth :)
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bret
aaronpk are you worried about authenticator things getting hacked?
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aaronpk
how do you mean?
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bret
blizzard authenticator was hacked a year or so ago
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bret
everyone had to reset their authenticators
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bret
im not sure, some data was stolen and they made everyone reset their authenticators
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aaronpk
goes to read up on the attack
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aaronpk
someone hacked into their database?
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bret
something like that
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aaronpk
holy crap it works
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bret
what do I add to my site?
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aaronpk
nothing, heh
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aaronpk
that's the weird part
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aaronpk
this is the first one that establishes the idea of an "indieauth account"
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aaronpk
cause it requires the initial setup to establish the shared secret
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bret
sounds like a lot of responsibility
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bret
but I like the idea of authenticators
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aaronpk
only a little more than what currently exists
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tantek.com
edited /webmention (+256) "happy to draft a rel-webmention spec if we decide we want that"
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bret
does anyone here use the smallest federated wiki?
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tantek.com
edited /Atom (+130) "list indieweb implementations explicitly"
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bret
another indieweb implementation :) http://publog.stuifzandapp.com/
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aaronpk
whoa where'd you find that?
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aaronpk
whoa, perl??
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aaronpk
wow ok this is cool
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aaronpk
really need an indieauth logo now
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Loqi
7 files modified, 1 new files in aaronpk/IndieAuth/master by aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/compare/5cb8670bcc9a...e05ab84edacf
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Loqi
aaronpk: Adds support for Google Authenticator's TOTP as an authentication mechanism
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aaronpk
that's slick
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aaronpk
anyone else want to try?
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tantek
is anyone else getting all the desperate Twitter "Vine: A new app for creating short, looping videos" emails?
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aaronpk
heh, i ahven't gotten that yet
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tantek.com
edited /responses (+638) "re-order points to flow better, note liked-item sounds better than "thing" or "object""
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm getting them on some of my secondary twitter accounts
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tantek
hey I noticed in Barnaby's UI http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot#Notes that he has a "Bookmark" button
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tantek
(it shows for a few frames in the animated gif)
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tantek
but there's no mention of bookmark on http://indiewebcamp.com/Taproot
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tantek
aaronpk - do you post "bookmarks" ?
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tantek
or are they just notes to you?
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aaronpk
I do here http://aaron.pk/bookmarks/ and am planning to move them to aaronparecki.com soon
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aaronpk
looking at aaron.pk/bookmarks shows a variety of ways I like to publish bookmarks
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aaronpk
i give them tags, and sometimes I include a snippet of the page text to remind myself why I bookmarked it
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tantek
aaronpk - care to start a stub? http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
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tantek
even with just that
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aaronpk
sure, I'll just go log in to the wiki with google authenticator :D
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tantek
I don't really collect/post them myself
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tantek
so… how does the google authenticator flow make sure you own the domain you claim to be?
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aaronpk
you have to log in with another provider first :)
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aaronpk
then you get the QR code you scan into the app
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tantek
are you using 2-factor google login auth?
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aaronpk
try it out, let me know what you think. just go to indieauth.com and sign in, then it will prompt you
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tantek
aaronpk - sigh, the logged out page still links to Special:OpenIDLogin
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tantek
please fix?
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aaronpk
urgh really? where?
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tantek
" log in again "
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tantek
links to
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aaronpk
i sign out all the time...
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caseorganic
tantek: aaronpk: i'd like to write a paper on indieweb for an IEEE journal with you. i can do a significant portion of the writing if desired. thoughts?
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tantek
papers are dead
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tantek
and journals would just slow us down
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aaronpk
ah! now I see the link
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tantek
I'm happy to let other anthropologists/historians document our progress
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tantek
they can copy liberally from the wiki anyway
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aaronpk
sounds like that's what it would be
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tantek
note that the link is RED ;)
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tantek
aaronpk - bug is also documented here: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/#Bug_Fixes
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aaronpk
ok, let me track this down
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aaronpk
wtf is referencing that openid plugin...
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tantek
isn't is just an admin page you have to edit?
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tantek
I'd have edited it ...
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tantek
note the TWO places that link to the OpenID login (documented on http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/#Bug_Fixes )
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tantek
hints strongly for admin/bureaucrat status for User:Tantek.com ;)
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aaronpk
happy to do that if I can figure out how
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tantek
I'm sure tommorris could help
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aaronparecki.com
edited /MediaWiki:Logouttext (-2) "remove reference to OpenID plugin"
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tantek
um when I login it says tantek.com is a provider?!?
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bret
aaronpk, I found it on eschnou's comment thread
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aaronpk
bret: oh awesome
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bret
also I would like to try out the google authenticator, but not right now IM about to grab some food
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aaronpk
tantek: uhh it thinks your tantek.com is an app.net login
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tantek
whut?
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bret
wouldnt a peer reviewed journal article provide additional validation to these efforts?
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aaronpk
I don't know...something got confused on may 20
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tantek
bret - not really. shipping is what counts.
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tantek
there are metric tons of peer reviewed journal articles about XML and RDF
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tantek
and they added exactly ...
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tantek
ZERO additional validation in practice.
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aaronpk
ooh... I think that database ID used to be openID
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tantek
the ONLY reason I can think of for bothering with writing a journal article is if it somehow helps get NSF grant funding or something
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tantek
as a way to fund / dedicate more of your time to open source indieweb efforts.
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tantek
but if that's the case, better to be up front about it
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tantek
bret - there's something really wrong when people still take seriously the idea of peer reviewed MSWORD/PDF documents about THE WEB.
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tantek
It's like, um, THE WEB is here to replace your legacy 20th century tech. If you're still using that legacy tech, you don't get the web.
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bret
does anyone remember the name of that wikipedia editor from the philippines was? he was at the preIWC drinkup
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tantek
no idea
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bret
tantek, my advisor :(
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bret
he publishes like 3 papers a year
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tantek
bret - tenure inertia.
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bret
this is about physics stuff though, not the web. Its less shocking at least
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tantek
bret - that being said, if your advisor is willing to let you spend your grad school time writing up a paper for/about the indieweb, by all means do so.
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bret
no he would tell me to major in something different
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aaronpk
tantek: i think you already have admin+bereaucrat status on the wiki
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bret
I would like to try and make my work more visible using the web though
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aaronpk
as of Jan 20
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tantek
interesting, well apparently I can edit http://indiewebcamp.com/MediaWiki:Logouttext
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aaronparecki.com
deleted /MediaWiki:Nologin "remove openid"
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tantek
um - is it really a good idea to DELETE those pages?!?
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aaronpk
yea, it falls back to the default
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bret
ok see you all later
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aaronpk
ok that's all of them
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aaronparecki.com
edited /wiki/ (-493) "/* Bug Fixes */ removed references to OpenID login page from all system messages"
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tantek
woot!
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aaronparecki.com
created /bookmark (+527) "stub bookmark article"
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aaronpk
ok well adding google authenticator support to indieauth was awesome, but not quite as amusing as if I had added fax logins
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tantek
is waiting for postcard printing/mailing
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tantek
(ala what banks do)
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aaronpk
that could be arranged
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tantek
too bad there's no "adr:" URI scheme :P
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tantek
(I think, ahem.)
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aaronpk
it would just have to find an h-adr on the home page
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tantek
not *an* h-adr
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tantek
but an h-adr inside the representative hCard for the page
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aaronpk
that doens't sound too bad
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tantek
oh boy
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aaronpk
i love the idea of having to wait 3 days to log in to a site
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tantek
don't close that tab!
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aaronpk
srsly, cause it'd need to set some sort of secret in the browser so that somebody who looks at the postcard en route can't just enter the code to log in
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tantek
right
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aaronpk
oh jeez, postalmethods.com is the same company as I use for sending faxes via email
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tantek
might as well call it legacycom.ms
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aaronpk
whoa, super expensive, I think they expect full-color stuff
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aaronpk
well, nice to know that's possible
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tantek
is cranking on breaking out IndieMark areas/levels into multiple dimensions, so independents can decide if they want to achieve whole levels, or level up just in a particular area.
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tantek
in rough order of ease of implementation (by personal and collective experience) and approximate number of folks that have implemented it already (as proof that more folks having done it = easier to do)
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tantek
LOTS of incrementalism
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tantek
gamifying indiewebness :D
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aaronpk
i still think we should tie this in with openbadges :)
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tantek
aaronpk - feel free - I'm not going to put any energy into open badges
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tantek
also I feel like IndieMark is too fluid to lock down with any static badges as of yet
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tantek
maybe by 2014 indiewebcamp we'll have enough data to do so
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aaronpk
once the levels/marks are broken out explicitly I can do a couple, at least a few of the straightforward ones
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tantek
it's going to be too fine grained for that I think
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aaronpk
ah maybe
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tantek
because for us, minimalism, and incrementalism, is much more important a motivator (being able to quickly get stuff working)
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tantek
than a shiny badge
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tantek
maybe we could brainstorm something akin to the different "skill" badges that Foursquare has
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tantek
where you can level up in each "skill"
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tantek
or "expertise" really - like coffee, or pizza, or museums
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bret
Maybe there could be some kind of website you can make your site interact with.
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bret
And it rates your domain based on the different kinds of interactions that have been successfully completed.
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tantek
testing some of this will be hard
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tantek
er, validating
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tantek
we'll probably have to do it by self-assertion and/or peer-review
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tantek
can we call it the pony-validator? ;)
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bret
Yeah, I hear Brett from google likes ponys.
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bret
I mean, it could be automatically validated by, this domain sent a we mention, but it was missing this microformat field
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bret
But the automaticness might have to be self asserted.
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bret
Or peer validated.
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bret
Hey tantek, Before working at Microsoft did you work in a variety of software engineer roles at Sun Microsystems, Oracle Corporation and Apple Computer?
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bret
Great now we have a needed citation for your Wikipedia page http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-30/line/1372646234
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bret
Thanks to the irc logs
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tantek
uh, I'm not sure IRC logs are sufficient for a WP citation ;)
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bret
Oh really? :(
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bret
That's silly
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tantek
especially when they're self-asserted by the subject of the citation
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bret
Hey aaronpk , is tantek lying?
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tantek
citations for sources that assert facts
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tantek
and the object of the fact is usually insufficient as a source for the fact, regardless of medium (personal website, irc, etc.)
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bret
Weird
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tantek
bret - pretty sure similar standards apply to your academic paper citations :)
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bret
That's true, but I don't write about people
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bret
Typically
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bret
I was going to ask you how you got involved with web standards, but Wikipedia kind of gave on okay picture :)
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tantek
bret - was asked to implement CSS in IE/Mac while at Microsoft, eventually got involved with CSSWG directly when my questions got too hard for others to answer
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tantek
1998-05 participated in first CSSWG f2f meeting and from there it was all downhill :)
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tantek
in *my* first CSSWG f2f meeting - the group had obviously met before then
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tantek
some of that is in the interview I did with Eric Meyer
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tantek
first link here: tantek.com/w/TantekInterviews
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tantek
and plenty more history too if you're curious
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+4417) "incorporated all idea areas into specific axes with levels - still editing across levels / axes for consistency"
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tantek
phew that was a lot of typing. and I'm still not done making it consistent.
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tantek
brb switching locations
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tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#draft_axes is sort of the most up to date if you're curious about the areas and what each level in each area entails
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tantek
a lot of this is educated intuitive guesses as what would be good to measure
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tantek
so please feel free to question and provide feedback.
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tantek
e.g. things being too easy, too hard, not incremental enough, not useful enough
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bret
Sorry was in between locations. On my cell right now. Awesome! I'll read all if that. The typing is appreciated. :)
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bret
It's not every day one runs into the mythical standards author.
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bret
could the photo post type be more general? Like a media post type? That seems like it could accomidate video, comics, art, etc instead of just your plain singular photo instagram type post
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bret
if a site wants to categorize them separately so that they are easier to sort, it seems like some kind of metainfo could handle that
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bret
like a tago
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bret
tag*
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bret
similar to how article can handle blog posts, news articles, academic papers etc
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tantek
bret - if you look at how instagram and flickr do photos vs. videos - they do present a different UI - which is a hint that they may be different post types.
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tantek
different UI = might want different post type
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bret
hrrm, ill go check it out
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tantek
blog posts, news articles, academic papers don't really have different UI
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tantek
minor stylesheet differences maybe
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bret
on instagram one shows a caption, and the other shows a big arrow in the middle
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bret
play arrow
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tantek
and touching does different things. you can add people to IG photos, but you can't to videos etc.
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tantek
bret - feel free to update indiewebcamp.com/Instagram with these observations
caseorganic joined the channel
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tantek.com
edited /IndieMark (+2479) "sync/merge Level 1 overall requirements with axis-specific Level 1 requirements, note other Level overall requirements need similar such syncing, a bit more intro/summary/intent text"
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tantek
and a whole bunch more typing
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tantek
ok I feel like I've got a reasonably solid first draft of IndieMark Level 0 and Level 1 requirements
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tantek
please review and see how they "feel"
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tantek
pretty much everyone who's been to an IndieWebCamp should be able to pass Level 0 with their personal site, and most of Level 1. Hopefully those that haven't fully met Level 1 will find the additional pieces both useful and not too hard to implement.
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tantek
Levels 2+ are still very much in flux, but there are some general ideas there coalescing.
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tantek
The axes provide some good clues as to how Level 2+ will shape up.
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tantek
next I need to apply what the axes say for each axis to the overall Level definitions and see how Level 2+ turn out to see if they're sensible and have good overall "themes"
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tantek
off to figure out evening meal - later!
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bret
aaronpk, are you around? Can I try the google authenticator with indieauth?
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bret.io
edited /How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain (+3) "/* Delegating your domain to myOpenID */ Added question about the safety of removing non-valid html5 code from the openID header"
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pfefferle
good morning
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tantek
good evening pfefferle
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pfefferle
hey tantek
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pfefferle
a question… are you PuSHing you main-page or only the feed?
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tantek
I don't know how to PuSH an HTML page - do you have a URL to a how to?
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tantek
I would prefer to PuSH my main page.
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pfefferle
ok, let me run some more tests, then I write a small summary at the wiki
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bret.io
edited /Instagram (+327) "/* Instagram */ Added some UX observations"
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pfefferle
but I think superfeedr does support html pages the same way you push feeds
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bret
tantek, you could push your atom feed :)
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tantek
bret I do
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bret
oh, cool
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bret
listening to your interview
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bret
zeldman*
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+31) "/* Working On */ Show actual original tweet user (instead of just _) got working as of yesterday, just tested it."
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+125) "/* Working On */ post reply to any URL"
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 6/30 at 11:21am: ok I did the git tag / push things you said to do for cassis - did that work?
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message on 6/30 at 11:21am: v0.1.15886
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barnabywalters
tantek: it worked! https://packagist.org/packages/tantek/cassis#v0.1.15886.2 — so the next thing is getting it to autoupdate when you push — that’s an even simpler one-off task
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JonathanNeal
good morning
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JonathanNeal
what's new, erikmaarten?
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erikmaarten
JonathanNeal: nothing much today, I think ... saw some talk about IndieAuth getting support for "Google Authenticator" though I haven't tried it.
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JonathanNeal
erikmaarten: cool.
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erikmaarten
And my own site is getting closer to useful, added a good tag filter that catches arbitrary number of tags from the url to filter posts ...
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JonathanNeal
I'm going to try and log in to the site again. I keep dropping the protocol on my URLS and it makes the authenticator sad.
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JonathanNeal
*try to log in
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JonathanNeal
erikmaarten: what's your site?
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erikmaarten
what's your website, by the way?
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erikmaarten
I was gonna say ...
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erikmaarten
erikmaarten.com
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JonathanNeal
jonathantneal.com
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erikmaarten
by the way, my home page doesn't actually lead to anything, it's a bit of a work in progress
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erikmaarten
(haven't decided about a front-page feed yet ...)
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JonathanNeal
What do your site run on?
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JonathanNeal
I do not have permission to add myself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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JonathanNeal
But I did log in successfully.
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erikmaarten
oh, you're using disqus
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erikmaarten
that's odd, when I added myself there no special permission was required
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erikmaarten
perhaps something happened during the latest round of modifications to IndieAuth, but if you're logged in successfully that shouldn't be the problem ...
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erikmaarten
my site runs on ... my home-brewed code, in php
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erikmaarten
and a database
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erikmaarten
what about yours, JonathanNeal?
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JonathanNeal
it runs on wordpress :\
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JonathanNeal
but i'm in the process of writing my own cms
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erikmaarten
I had a Wordpress(.org) site some while ago, it's very nice because it's easy to get going and everything works well out of the box ...
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JonathanNeal
Agreed. The PHP is really messy though.
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JonathanNeal
Writing a plugin or a theme is not worth the trouble.
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erikmaarten
when I encountered indieweb a little while ago though, I figured I'd just write everything on my own, incrementally, because it's a nice feeling to build everything bottom-up (when it works ...) :)
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erikmaarten
what are you using for writing your own cms?
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JonathanNeal
I'm writing that myself, too.
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JonathanNeal
I'm working on a spec for pages, and I finished a spec for content @ https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/5889625
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erikmaarten
JonathanNeal: That's a nice and structured approach. So you're not going to use a dbms, then?
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JonathanNeal
I have nothing against a database, and something like this could be worked into MySQL. I don't know much about Mongo, but probably that too.
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erikmaarten
I chose MySQL simply because I have used it before and I don't have any practical experience with other good ways of storing information. I think barnabywalters stores everything in flat files, though I don't know exactly how.
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JonathanNeal
What are you hoping to learn these days?
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pdurbin
what a great question :)
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erikmaarten
I'm hoping to get more experience of web development in general, from the website project. Not a very accomplished developer yet. So I guess that's a broad goal ... I might go over to learning Ruby later, hope that might be time well spent, and I didn't actually intend to write my site in PHP from the beginning.
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erikmaarten
any learning goals, JonathanNeal and pdurbin? :)
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JonathanNeal
Those all sound like good goals. I like the last goal, because it will involve working with HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.
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pdurbin
erikmaarten: sure, that's what http://irclog.greptilian.com/wonderstudy/2013-05-11 is all about :)
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erikmaarten
I was actually planning to write it in Python first, but support for Python is so-so on web hosts so I dropped it.
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erikmaarten
pdurbin: nice! will keep an eye on it!
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pdurbin
erikmaarten: the short answer (about learning goals) is that I'm working my way through these: https://github.com/pdurbin/wiki/commits/master/java/javaone/2012.mdwn :)
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pdurbin
.mdwn extension but it's actually yaml :) ... see also http://wiki.greptilian.com/markdown/as-yaml :)
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pdurbin
here's the yaml/markdown rendered as html: http://wiki.greptilian.com/java/javaone/2012/
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JonathanNeal
Immediately, I would love to find a job, then (perhaps unrelated) to complete the spec for this simple CMS and to implement it. Ultimately, I would love to make anything that makes the web more accessible to everyone.
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erikmaarten
pdurbin: that's a rather hefty collection!
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pdurbin
yeah.. taking me a while :)
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pdurbin
my "reviews" are usually one sentence. or a few words :)
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erikmaarten
JonathanNeal: sounds like a good plan. What kind of job are you looking for?
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JonathanNeal
I am looking for a job involving HTML, CSS, JavaScript, and innovation, in an OpenSource or OpenSource-friendly company, leading or working in a small team.
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erikmaarten
I imagine a fair deal of the job postings on hackernews might satisfy those criteria, haven't looked too closely though.
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erikmaarten
anyway, off to bed now
#
erikmaarten
good night
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Loqi
buenas noches
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erikmaarten
and pdurbin, some broken links here: http://wiki.greptilian.com/vim/
#
erikmaarten
for your vim dotfiles, perhaps that's not a very big priority haha
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Loqi
awesome
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JonathanNeal
goodnight erikmaarten
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pdurbin
erikmaarten: crap. yeah. from before I moved them to github. will fix. thanks!
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@xtof_fr
#authentification par mail : #indieauth supporte #persona
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@egadenne
Ma nvelle identité sur le Web est basée sur un nom de domaine ultra-court inspirée par le mvt #IndieWeb =&gt
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Loqi
et toi ?
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@laVeilleTechno
RT @egadenne: Ma nvelle identité sur le Web est basée sur un nom de domaine ultra-court inspirée par le mvt #IndieWeb =&gt
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Loqi
htt...
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@veganstraightedge
Last night I dreamt of #indieweb improvements I need to my site and woke up with "Volcano Girls" by Veruca Salt in my head.
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tantek
erikmaarten: re: "I figured I'd just write everything on my own, incrementally, because it's a nice feeling to build everything bottom-up" welcome to the club :)
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tantek
most of us are building our own - because we all have different itches to scratch, and different ways to scratch them
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aaronpk
bret: yea go ahead and try out google authenticator! just sign in on indieauth.com and you'll see the prompt
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tantek.com
edited /How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain (+209) "create issues subsection, respond"
(view diff)
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ozten
aaronpk: One thing that confuses me about http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ is comments. Is displaying them a TODO?
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aaronpk
comments will only appear there if the comment is also syndicated to indienews
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aaronpk
3) add a u-syndication link to IndieNews
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Loqi
!calc 3) add a u-syndication link to IndieNews
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aaronpk
that's required for the comment as well
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ozten
aaronpk: cool. Seems like noone has done it in practise yet
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aaronpk
guess i'm not displaying the comment count on the link to "comments"
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aaronpk
uhoh, my site does not follow the new authorship rules and now sandeepshetty's reply is blank, heh http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb
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tantek
aaronpk - looks like we might need a comment validator :)
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tantek
that shows comment components including authorship
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aaronpk
ah, like one step past the pin13.net uf2 thing?
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aaronpk
yea actually we need a library that handles all the authorship rules. i bet barnabywalters is already working on that
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tantek
right, something that applies the /authorship and /comment-presentation algorithms and shows you what it finds
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: already working? actually mostly done
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tantek
barnaby's parser has a method for it
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sandeepshetty
FYI, I'm also working on an /authorship lib based on the latest edits to that page along with some html pages to test it out.
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tantek
great!
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barnabywalters
it’s not perfect but I’m using it and it hasn’t gone wrong so far
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barnabywalters
mine doesn’t fetch the rel-author URL yet, only looks in the current context
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aaronpk
excellent. I will replace my hacked up version with that library then!
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tantek
aaronpk - any chance of a simple UI to it on pin13.net?
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aaronpk
yea I'd be up for that
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aaronpk
hey we now have 5 different domains on indienews! http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
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barnabywalters
is working on a friendly wm+pb sending+debugging UI which includes a visual h-entry validator
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aaronpk
public or part of your site?
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: both
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barnabywalters
sandeepshetty: you mention you have HTML pages to test authorship — I do to, we should make a public compliance suite
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sandeepshetty
I don't have them yet... working on it... maybe I could use yours?
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aaronpk
someone already added a bunch to a github repo...let me find that
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aaronpk
crap..where did that go
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barnabywalters
mine are mostly embedded in the test files in my php-mf-cleaner repo
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barnabywalters
but as I mentioned, only test one-page authorship, no fetching of remote rel-author URLs yet
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barnabywalters
mf-cleaner is purely functional, no side effects
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aaronpk
seems reasonable to leave it up to the user to decide how to fetch the page if needed
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ozten
aaronpk: I wrote up instructions for using Squid as an outbound proxy cache https://etherpad.mozilla.org/browserid-squid-proxy
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ozten
This should speed up IndieAuth w/o too much new code
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aaronpk
as long as mf-cleaner has a clear response when it's required to go fetch the rel-author remote URL
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aaronpk
ozten: oh awesome! I ended up doing a bunch of refactoring this weekend and sped it up a ton already
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ozten
very cool
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aaronpk
it will use the last known valid list of providers for returning users, and it gives you a "re-scan" button to go fetch and verify providers from your site manually
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sandeepshetty
barnabywalters: I was inspired by something pfefferle did the other day.... Will be hosting the html pages on gist so ppl can quickly fork and test.
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sandeepshetty
I don't write tests :p
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aaronpk
oh that's a good idea
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aaronpk
facebook's new hashtag thing is cool https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/indieweb
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sandeepshetty
well that was foolish of me to expect that to be public (not require a login)
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aaronpk
heh, it's not?
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sandeepshetty
requires fb login
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aaronpk
we're going to need to make a microformats feed -> ifttt hook :)
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aaronpk
oh jeez
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aaronpk
just got this in my google alerts feed
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aaronpk
"Google Alerts no longer supports RSS delivery"
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aaronpk
apparently this is the next step in Google killing off RSS
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barnabywalters
wait, why is that happening?
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barnabywalters
has never used google alerts
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aaronpk
you know about it though right?
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barnabywalters
looks it up
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aaronpk
they had two delivery options, emails and an RSS feed
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barnabywalters
they email you search results? ???
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aaronpk
yea, as they find them
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barnabywalters
fair enough
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@xtof_fr
#Orange #1 sur les #silos sociaux. Un moyen de contourner les centres d'appels. http://business.lesechos.fr/directions-generales/numerique/0202861228898-orange-bon-eleve-sur-les-reseaux-sociaux-7719.php #telemarketing #indieweb
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aaronpk
but they also had an RSS feed they'd update
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barnabywalters
and people pipe that into their blogs
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aaronpk
so I used that to pipe search results into IRC in a few channels
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aaronpk
!tell tantek check this out -- google is killing off RSS delivery of google alerts... a final step in deprecating RSS, and taking out a chunk of the web in the process https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Google+Alerts+no+longer+supports+RSS+delivery%22
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters
I’m all for downplaying RSS, but that’s downright disrespectful
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aaronpk
yea, i dont even know if there was any notice given
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barnabywalters
they could quite easily have just given email notice and turned the service off, instead of sending a dummy message out
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aaronpk
yea, you had to have a google account to set up an alert
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bret
What is the replacement?
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bret
also, aaronpk, don't see anything about the authneticator when trying to log into indieauth. just a heads up nothing urgent
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bret
Has anyone tried out the new firefox mobile?
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Loqi
tantek: aaronpk left you a message 34 minutes ago: check this out -- google is killing off RSS delivery of google alerts... a final step in deprecating RSS, and taking out a chunk of the web in the process https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Google+Alerts+no+longer+supports+RSS+delivery%22
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@silverton
@aaronp not to mention killing XMPP in Hangouts. #indieweb more vital than ever.
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tantek
aaronpk wow
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tantek
all of this points to another opportunity to rebuild Technorati
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tantek
I think julien51 is best positioned to do it - since he has so many folks sending stuff to superfeedr
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tantek
perhaps something for the business models page
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@xtof_fr
@egadenne Peux-tu essayer cette semaine une connexion sur site avec ton email ? Le feedback #persona aidera #indieweb. Belle soirée.
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aaronpk
bret: log in at indieauth.com and then you'll see it
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tantek
so we have POSSE and PESOS...
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tantek
what do we call it when you cross-syndicate from silo to silo, in an attempt to aggregate?
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tantek
e.g. send everything to FB/Twitter/Tumblr
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tantek
Publish Elsewhere Syndicate Everything To A Silo?
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tantek
Pesetas?
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aaronpk
hahahaha
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aaronpk
well done sir
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tantek
I'm going to start PESETAS everything to Tumblr that I haven't moved to my own site yet
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tantek
you know, now that Tumblr is owned by Yahoo, what could possibly go wrong?
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aaronpk
like as a backup?
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tantek
cheap lazy public backup
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aaronpk
I currently do that with foursquare -> google calendar
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tantek
oh and Tumblr still supports RSS
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tantek
so potentially I *could* use Tumblr as a PESOS aggregator
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tantek
if I then import that RSS to my own site
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tantek
no one watches my Tumblr anyway
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aaronpk
how would you get everything into tumblr? ifttt?
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@AndrewKorf
@theinferno congrats on the “acquisition” look forward to seeing where you head with @bebo #open #indieweb #federated ?
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tantek
aaronpk - most sites now have an option to "also post to Tumblr"
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tantek
e.g. Instagram, Vine, Thisismyjam etc.
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aaronpk
ouch! AOL acquired Bebo for $850 million in 2008, then sold Bebo to CCP for $10 million in 2010, now the founder is buying it back for $1 million
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aaronpk
tantek: ah! at the time of creation
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tantek
aaronpk - right - real-time-like even
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aaronpk
yea it annoys me that instagram can't publish videos to flickr
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aaronpk
you can run your tumblr account from a subdomain of tantek.com or ttk.me so you own the URLs too
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tantek
pesetas.tantek.com :P
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aaronpk
i like this idea
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aaronpk
huh.. might as well renew the SSL cert for indieauth.com for 5 years. will end up saving me a hassle every year and it seems to be working out quite well
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tantek
now I just need to update my Tumblr theme to support h-entry h-card :D
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aaronpk
OH that's interesting
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aaronpk
doesn't that make it a viable way to host an indieweb site then?
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tantek
I think you see where I'm going with this
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tantek
I just need to take / publish my notes
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tantek
and it might just empower a bunch more people to take more indieweb steps
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tantek
even if it is PESOS like from a hosted content perspective
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aaronpk
but with your own domain pointing to tumblr, it's actually more like treaing tumblr as a hosting company than a silo social network
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tantek
yes - it can be
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tantek
if you're not just posting stuff to it from other silos
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tantek
which is Tumblr's very nature
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tantek
it's by design a syndication destination
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tantek
a place where you tumble stuff into
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tantek
like linkblogging++
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aaronpk
and if I set up pingback.me to support sending out webmentions automatically by watching a feed, we could enable that theme with webmentions too
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aaronpk
the "feed" of course being the list of h-entry posts
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tantek
so far Nike+, Foursquare don't share to Tumblr. I imagine Yahoo will lobby for that to change however.
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aaronpk
tumblr has a post-via-email thing tho right?
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aaronpk
so that would help bridge a couple more services in the mean time
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tantek
I think tumblr has a post via-any-comm-channel thing
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tantek
like IM
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aaronpk
lol they still have posting by IM?
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aaronpk
I used to do that on my site. wrote a little AIM bot I could send stuff to.
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tantek
huh, I think we have a few more silos to document: http://www.conversationprism.com/
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tantek
hahaha the Events slice has "Upcoming"
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tantek
makes me wonder how many of these sites are dead
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aaronpk
and not facebook
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tantek
oh and is that Google Reader I see in the Bookmarks slice?
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tantek
that's so yesterday.
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aaronpk
wow I didn't realize you could make a completely custom tumblr theme http://www.tumblr.com/docs/en/custom_themes
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aaronpk
i mean I kind of knew, but never really looked at it before
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tantek
and they're missing thisismyjam.com from the Music slice
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah my theme is pretty custom right now
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tantek
it's got hentry (old school hAtom) because I haven't touched it in years
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tantek.com
created /tumblr (+20) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+174) "add How to and POSSE with memory and question"
(view diff)
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tantek
anybody here POSSEing to Tumblr? How are you doing it? http://indiewebcamp.com/Tumblr#POSSE_to_Tumblr
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aaronpk
"asking [Facebook] to teach it will lead either to collaboration or story worthy dissent
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aaronpk
either of which will aid in the move to create the new standard." http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fedsocweb/2013Jul/0013.html
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sandeepshetty
every time I see a reference to the acct URI scheme I feel :(
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@t
that thing where you Publish Elsewhere &amp
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Loqi
Syndicate Everything To A Silo (like Tumblr): #PESETAS #indieweb #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Qn2)
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@shawnokeefe
RT @t: that thing where you Publish Elsewhere &amp
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Loqi
Syndicate Everything To A Silo (like Tumblr): #PESETAS #indieweb #ownyourdata (ttk.me t4Qn2)
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tantek
sandeepshetty - yeah - it's a hack
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tantek
aaronpk - hahaha - that's laughable. more humor from the W3C FSW list I see
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@MGZALLP
RT @xtof_fr: #Orange #1 sur les #silos sociaux. Un moyen de contourner les centres d'appels. http://business.lesechos.fr/directions-generales/numerique/0202861228898-orange-bon-eleve-sur-les-reseaux-sociaux-7719.php #telemarketing #indieweb
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tantek
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this (or both) http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/
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tantek
ok, note to #indiewebcamp community, let us: create and ship all the protocols *before* 2013-08-07
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tantek
show up and demo
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tantek
and be like ok, we're done, when are the rest of you going to get on board?
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tantek
and heck it's in SF
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aaronpk
i could probably even go down for it
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tantek
indiewebcampers Shane Caraveo (class of 2012), Julien (class of 2012), Kevin Marks (2011 & 2013), and Evan (2012) are on the Program Committee
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aaronpk
oh that's a pretty good indiewebcamp contingent right there
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tantek
aaronpk, we should at least get you, benwerd, and myself showing up and demoing
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tantek
OH HAI, WE MADED YOU A FEDERATED PROTOCOL BUT WE SHIPPED IT
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aaronpk
so... "you do need to submit either a Position Paper by 1 July 2013 if you wish to present"
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tantek
aaronpk, it's "but" because no one at W3C workshops like this demos stuff that's actually real / shipping. it's all concept / white paper / handwaving
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aaronpk
can my position paper be "hey look it works"?
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tantek
ok folks, we have our deadline
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tantek
summer of indieweb
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tantek
aaronpk, we can merely submit a "statement of interest"
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tantek
oh I guess to demo we need to submit a position paper: http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/participate.html
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tantek.com
edited /Tumblr (+1072) "How to Add microformats support, start with some h-entry tips"
(view diff)
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tantek
first attempt. will iterate.
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aaronpk
whoa awesome
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barnabywalters
tantek: nice
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barnabywalters
RE that W3C social thing — by opensocial, they mean the thing at opensocial.org, right?
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tantek
yeah I think so
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barnabywalters
I tried to figure out what it was but there were so many redirects, leading to a broken page :/
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barnabywalters
google -> opensocial.org -> “documentation” -> wiki -> broken page
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melvster
tantek: that socail web thing is harry halpin ... he used to be chair of the social web incubator, then he went off for a few years doing web crypto, now he's coming back into social stuff
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tantek
melvster, yeah, I know Harry - we had a heart to heart at the Web Identity Workshop a few years ago at Mozilla
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tantek
he knows my #indiewebcamp and selfdogfood biases
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melvster
tantek: i met him last year at tpac (where I also met you :))
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melvster
i think we made a mistake 2-3 years ago
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melvster
we bet the house on OStatus
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melvster
and while it did well, it didnt set the world on fire
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melvster
and had a few technical issues
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melvster
i think during that time ostatus has been in decline, e.g. status.net closing, and diaspora losing all their founders ... at the same time linked data is starting to grow
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melvster
the problem with ostatus
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melvster
which was originally called openmicroblogging
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melvster
was that it was originally designed for micro blogs
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melvster
then tried to scale to lots of different use cases
#
melvster
that type of scaling is hard
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melvster
so now we live in a fragmented world
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melvster
and it's really difficult to put the pieces together
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melvster
the indieweb approach is good in that it's constantly dogfooding, imho
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tantek
melvster - nah, the problem with ostatus is that most of it was too hard
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tantek
= very few implementations that barely interoperated
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melvster
tantek: that too
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tantek
that was the *primary* problem
#
tantek
always is
#
tantek
complexity, difficulty
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melvster
the SWAT0 test was too advanced
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tantek
melvster - yeah, I'll take some blame for that
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melvster
ambitious i should say :)
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tantek
more than just too advanced, it was insufficiently incremental
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melvster
exactly
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melvster
i always tell people to get things such as friending and messaging working first, because you'll find that in itself is a challenge, and throws up many issues
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melvster
basic building blocks of functionality
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sandeepshetty
tantek: why is authorship part of iwc wiki & not the uf wiki?
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barnabywalters
friending and messaging? hm, assuming you mean private messaging, I don’t think any indieweb creator so far has prioritised those two building blocks
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tantek
too hard to predictably approach in baby stesp
#
tantek
s/stesp/steps
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: too hard to predictably approach in baby steps
#
tantek
Evan really blazed a lot of trails there
#
tantek
it was the first real semi-practical attempt at coming up with a social stack
#
tantek
and frankly, he *did* selfdogfood it and shipped it
#
tantek
it's just that he's too smart for the rest of us ;)
#
tantek
melvster, you totally get the indieweb approach: constant iterative selfdogfooding
#
tantek
like very old school IETF
#
tantek
(not current email-list bike-shedding armchair-architect IETF)
#
tantek
melvster - I disagree re: "things such as friending and messaging working first"
#
tantek
note that we've gotten TONS done in indieweb without figuring out friending
#
tantek
nor messaging
#
tantek
basic building blocks of functionality for WHOM?
#
tantek
no one that selfdogfoods has bothered with those
#
tantek
(except for a minor indieweb messaging brainstorm early on in 2011)
#
tantek
sandeepshetty - because this is the community that cares more specifically about authorship and is actively figuring it out with live deployments
#
aaronpk
barnabywalters: there's the IndieWeb Messgaging thing i built a couple years ago, bnvk implemented it too
#
melvster
tantek: "such as" ... i like friending because I think it's social ... perhaps you do that with a blogroll
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tantek
authorship builds on existing microformats, it doesn't introduce any new microformats
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tantek
melvster - what do you do with friending on your own site?
#
barnabywalters
aaronpk: are either of those implementations still working, are you actively using them, did you prioritise that over identity and publishing?
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barnabywalters
I’m guessing yes, no, no
#
tantek
melvster - the evidence so far is that EVERYONE who starts their own site/project here in the indiewebcamp community has done nearly ZERO about friending
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melvster
tantek: i list all my friends on my indieweb home page
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tantek
so the data demonstrates quite well that "friending" is not one of the "first things"
#
aaronpk
barnabywalters: correct. :) yes, no, no
#
tantek
also blogrolls have died too as a UI construct
#
tantek
nearly no one has them
#
tantek
no new blogging software bothers to list them
#
tantek
thinks he should write up a few more misconceptions on the indiewebcamp wiki
#
tantek
eventually we'll have to figure out some form of "friending" when we get to things like private / limited access posts
#
tantek
but it's not been a priority for those of us who selfdogfood
#
melvster
tantek: I just think for a good social experience, having friends is important
#
tantek
in stark contrast to all the academics that just love to wank about privacy and social and crap
#
tantek
melvster WHY?
#
tantek
without starting to build/deploy a social experience on your own site, I claim you have no basis for such an assertion of "importance"
#
melvster
tantek: because it's a metaphor that most people are used to, you have a feed and you see what your friends are doing, you can browser friends, you can add and remove contacts, you can see friends of friends etc.
#
barnabywalters
AFAIK the closest anyone here’s come to anything resembling “friending” is http://waterpigs.co.uk/contacts, which is one of the lowest priority parts of my site (and it shows)
#
barnabywalters
oh would you look at that, it’s actually broken
#
tantek
thanks barnabywalters for proving my point
#
tantek
melvster - you're talking purely theoretically
#
barnabywalters
is not sure he should be happy his point is proven or sad his site is broken ;)
#
tantek
we call that hand waving
#
tantek
the empirical/anecdotal data shows (with actual people working on / deploying) that none of that is a priority
#
tantek
so you may want to recheck your metaphor methodology ;)
#
melvster
tantek: I can click on my homepage then browse my social graph extending to a wider circle of millions of profiles ... simply through mouse clicking ... would you consider that hand waving or deployment?
#
tantek
looks for melvster's home page
#
tantek
clicks on melvster
#
tantek
gets a create new wiki page UI
#
melvster
one sec
#
tantek
hey - I "followed my nose" as the semweb people are fond of saying
#
melvster
maybe i did the markup wrong
#
melvster
one sec
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sandeepshetty
if following = friending then it's what I'm working on (reader)
#
tantek
sandeepshetty - that's because you're one of the most advanced people here ;)
#
sandeepshetty
is wondering if that was a compliment?
#
tantek
um, YES. :)
#
tantek.com
created /User:Melvincarvalho.com (+82) "stub with an h-card"
(view diff)
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tantek
hey barnabywalters nice going with the rel parsing!!
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tantek
in php-mf2
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barnabywalters
tantek: thanks for writing a spec which was super easy to implement :)
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melvster
oh thanks ... in the page i have
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melvster
* {{irc user|melvincarvalho.com|melvster|GMT}}
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melvster
ah ha ... thanks!
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melvster
so you can see on my homepage I have a list of friends
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melvster
actually I was just about to add one
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melvster
if your browser doesnt automatically show you a view in linked data click on the link saying 'view this page as linked data'
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melvster
then you'll see a clickable list of all my friends
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melvster
then you can click on say
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melvster
henry story
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melvster
and you'll get links to all his friends
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barnabywalters
melvster: wait, first you say that friending “is a challenge, and throws up many issues”, then you demonstrate the contrary, that all it requires is some well-marked-up hyperlinks? I’m not sure I understand what point you’re trying to make
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melvster
actually I think the whole cloud extends several million
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melvster
barnabywalters: well marked up hyperlinks is a challenge in itself!
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melvster
you'd be amazed how many people dont even do that
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tantek.com
edited /blogroll (+454) "add melvster's blogroll to list of examples, barnabywalters to a "previously" subsection (until he fixes it ;)"
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melvster
im actually working on a browser extension that will just pull everything in to the browser without the ugly interface
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barnabywalters
tantek: I’m working on it ;)
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tantek
melvster - in terms of marking up blogrolls of friends etc., XFN solved that problem simply with HTML 10 years ago ;)
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tantek
melvster - it's telling how few of those on your blog roll actually have their own site
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melvster
tantek: sure both xfn and foaf work for this use case, I selected foaf for my homepage ... in 2004 foaf was going to take off but then there was a huge pain integrating it to plaxo and the buzz died down, it's still a fairly solid name space tho
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tantek
wouldn't mind seeing a resurgence of blogrolls but isn't holding his breath.
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tantek
hah - there's no such thing as a "solid" namespace. I mean, maybe "solid" as in it gets in your way
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melvster
i see both sides of the argument
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aaronpk
I don't think "friending" as a feature of its own is useful
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melvster
certainly centralized namespaces get you up and running faster, but decentralization is also good for scalability
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barnabywalters
WOAH indieauth is fast now — great work aaronpk!
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: YEAH thanks!
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tantek
scalability of divergence maybe - which is contrary / anathema to standardization and communication
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /blogroll (+8) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ my example is working and well marked-up"
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melvster
tantek: all standards have elements of decentralization and elements of centralization ... different people favour different approaches
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melvster
i personally lean towards decentralization, because I like scalability, but it can sometimes come at the cost of rapid development
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melvster
always tradeoffs there are
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aaronpk
If you look at the purpose of "friending" people on other networks, it's always in the context of something else
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tantek
melvster, it's ok the "decentralized extensibility" crowd can continue banging heads into various walls over time
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aaronpk
you friend someone on facebook to see their status updates in your feed, or to be able to see private photos, etc
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tantek
whether it's called XML, RDF, RDFa, linked data, etc.
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tantek
eventually the people that want to ship and have stuff interoperate sustainably over time switch to HTML+microformats
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tantek
namespaces are an anathema to interop
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tantek
though they're probably ok for experiments
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aaronpk
so most likely the first thing that looks like "friending" on my site will be me subscribing to peoples' feeds, or adding people to a whitelist to see my private content
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aaronpk
is catching up on old discussions, sorry
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tantek
XML makes more sense when it's thought of as eXperiment Markup Language
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tantek
aaronpk - your discussion is more productive, unlike namespaces or meta-namespaces
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tantek
once in a while a believer pops up
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melvster
tantek: it really depends on what use cases you are trying to solve, if you are happy with a central registry of terms and that does everything you need, that's fine, but if you want to create features that may not have previously been anticipated, having your own terms can be useful ... one driver for me is payments, and i need my own terms for that, because they are not part of the registry, and probably never will be
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melvster
at the same time I can use all the great features of indieweb
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melvster
but then run payments through my network for those that have that functionality
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melvster
im not satisfied with having to use high friction third parties for payments, for me the have to be low friction and instant peer to peer, so that new systems of incentives can be created on the web
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melvster
paying someone should be as simple as a hand gesture captured by your leap motion device and sent to someone's indie web identity ... but all too often it's such high fatigue that people dont bother
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melvster
it's things like that where namespaces become useful
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melvster
but i agree it would be nice to reuse as much as possible
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /blogroll (+921) "added brainstorming section with overdue braindump"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /blogroll (-19) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
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tantek
melvster - I think you just repeated my point about experiments / experimentation.
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tantek
re: payments that you want to innovate with
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tantek
"need my own terms for that" = good reason to do an experiment
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melvster
the web is shaped via incentives
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tantek
but not standards
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tantek
even IETF dropped the whole x-* thing
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melvster
well you can have a hyperlink in a link relation anyway
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tantek
aaronpk - agreed about following others' content, or providing permissions to read (and maybe edit) some content.
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tantek
melvster - yeah, at least they're not subject to the namespace prefix brittleness problem
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aaronpk
yea, whatever it is, it's not going to look like "friending" and all of a sudden we'll realize we built it
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tantek
aaronpk - there's something about the UI model of reciprocal friending that FB has popularized that we *may* want to look at at some point
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tantek
just given the fact that FB has taught so many people to use / think in terms of that model
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melvster
tantek, aaronpk: so perhaps friending is not an important use case at this time in indie web, but it's one i think ive already solved (at least from a read only browsable perspective) and it's one that's perhaps more important in the wider context of the federated social web
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aaronpk
yes, sure the UI may be similar, but we're not going to get there by all of a sudden everyone wanting to "friend" each other on the indieweb
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melvster
we dont want all our friends to be trapped in a centralized walled garden
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tantek
melvster, friending is far more than just a public blogroll
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aaronpk
it's going to be beacuse you want to do X, where X is seeing private content, etc etc
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sandeepshetty
tantek: every time it says rel-author or h-card it means top level rel-author & h-card right? or do I need tests cases where they are children (rel-author on sandeep.io is now inside h-feed!)
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tantek
that's such a degenerate (in the maths sense) example of the problem it's not even worth mentioning
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tantek
sandeepshetty - rel values are always page level
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barnabywalters
sandeepshetty: rels are page scoped, there are only top-level rel-authors :)
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tantek
thank you barnaby :)
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barnabywalters
can’t tell is that was sarcastic or not :)
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melvster
sandeepshetty: I think the proposed acct: URI scheme is mainly syntactic sugar, we'll have to wait and see if it catches on, im not going to rush to implement it until I see good adoption or have a good reason ...
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sandeepshetty
right sorry my bad. the question still stands for h-card though
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tantek
barnabywalters not sarcastic. :)
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sandeepshetty
melvster: it's designed by silo ppl for silo accounts
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tantek
melvster I think you mean syntactic vinnegar
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barnabywalters
accnt: is syntatic *sugar*?!
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melvster
acct: not accnt:
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tantek
sandeepshetty please restate the question about h-card
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melvster
tho many people actually make that typo
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sandeepshetty
tantek: thinking I'll need tests for rel-author pointing to a page where h-card is inside an h-feed. so the authorship algo should qualify which h-card (top-level+ inside h-feed)
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tantek
is lolling at the Bebo story
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barnabywalters
sandeepshetty: ftr, mf-cleaner::getAuthor flattens page h-cards and walks through them
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melvster
sandeepshetty: that the acct scheme was invented by people that build silos is sort of a coincidence ... it because they wanted to query data where email was the object, and their technology meant they had to provide a subject, the choice was between mailto: and acct: and acct seems to be winning
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tantek
silo invented tech -> meh
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tantek
I think if you ignore silo invented tech long enough it just ends up dying of its own accord
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tantek
kind of like all hypertext systems before HTML
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tantek
(snap)
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sandeepshetty
barnabywalters: by flattens do you mean pulls out all h-card at any depth?
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barnabywalters
sandeepshetty: yep, including properties, so h-feed.author would still pop up in the flattened lsit
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sandeepshetty
what about h-cards of reply-context?
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tantek
is now PESETASing to Tumblr
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barnabywalters
sandeepshetty: they’re included but should be ignored as their domains aren’t the same as the root domain. actually I hope to get rid of that particular bit of code, just thought it was worth mentioning
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sandeepshetty
melvster: the *real* choice should have been just a URL
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barnabywalters
argh Numbers doesn’t do HTML export — any recommendations for a good data table authoring application, mac/web, with HTML export?
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sandeepshetty
I mean an http url
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aaronpk
google docs?
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melvster
sandeepshetty: sure, i suggested 18 months ago that the solution to webfiger was as simple as : user@host -> http://host/@/user ... or something like that ...
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melvster
design by committee takes time :)
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melvster
but maybe not 5 years!
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tantek.com
created /friending (+618) "stub"
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sandeepshetty
what pisses me of even more is that all the silo ppl asking for it... will not end up using it.
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sandeepshetty
like we saw with activitystreams as well
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sandeepshetty
but they'll just end up complicating stuff
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barnabywalters
hm, turns out you can just copy/paste numbers charts into textedit and save as HTML. that’s tolerable
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sandeepshetty
it's telling that the webfinger spec has hypothetical examples of "possibilities" "
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melvster
sandeepshetty: what will be real useful is going to be to discover meta data from an email address, e.g. avatar, blog, homepage, name etc. ... if you have to jump through a few hoops to get it, i guess that's ok, it's useful information ... but webfinger probably isnt robust enough to be the foundation of a web scale identity or discover system, time will tell ... it's a good tool for discovery, if it ever ships ...
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tantek
sandeepshetty - your analysis is correct. thus, just ignore the silo people as they won't actually ship / interoperate anything anyway.
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tantek
they might as well just be making a bunch of noise on a mailing list. oh wait.
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aaronpk
oh snap
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tantek
the only webfinger relation that matters is email address -> home page. everything else (avatar, blog, homepage, name) is already well defined / implemented / support as hCard/h-card on your home page.
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tantek
oh and rel-me for all those "other" profiles for those that spray & pray their content across silos
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tantek
is still guilty of some of that, hence the PESETASing to Tumblr.
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sandeepshetty
it's sad that they didn't just use web linking and went the known path way
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tantek
sandeepshetty - it's a crowd that has a fetish for email, kind of like people in the 1980s had a fetish for fax machines.
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tantek
it'll pass in 20 years.
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melvster
sandeepshetty: well-known is OK ... it saves one round trip, and that can be important to the enterprise ...
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sandeepshetty
no I meant get the domain from the email address and do a head on it to get a link rel
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tantek
enterprise is fairly ignorable. once the open web adopts something the enterprise eventually begrudgingly adopts it too.
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tantek
no need to actually include enterprise in any early (any at all?) standards discussions.
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melvster
tantek: you need 3+ enterprises to start a standard at the W3C iirc
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tantek
though if you can honeypot them into their own standards committees, it can help reduce the amount of noise/distraction they cause elsewhere. e.g. WS-Deathstar
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tantek
melvster LOL!!!
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melvster
i mean to charter a working group
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tantek
and here I thought that was at OASIS.
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tantek
do new working groups actually work any more?
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tantek
actually has to try to help fix that problem, now that he's on the W3C AB.
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sandeepshetty
tantek: think you missed my question about qualifying h-card?
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tantek
sandeepshetty - sorry, will scroll
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melvster
well id say the first decade of the web was quite grass roots, but now the enterprise is much more dominant, and we seem to be seeing more centralization as a result, but I could be completely misreading the situation ... it seems very few people now promote the properties that made the web take off such as decentralization and freedom to publish
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sandeepshetty
search for "qualify"
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sandeepshetty
tantek: love the idea of using tumblr. thanks to it's blogging roots is pretty open.
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sandeepshetty
enterprise = maximize stakeholder profits != maximize benefits for everyone.
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