#indiewebcamp 2013-07-08

2013-07-08 UTC
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sandeepshetty
if a large chuck of the comment is a tangent... wouldn't it make sense for it to be a mention? (should we encourage this practice?)
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sandeepshetty
(maybe I'm understanding it wrong, are there any examples of this that I can see?)
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sandeepshetty
and how often does it happen? (if it's a 20% case, should be account for it?)
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tantek
sandeepshetty - all good questions
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tantek
I think I have anecdotal memories of having written such replies myself
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@kevinmarks
Two timely #indieweb posts for #July4th
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tantek
aaronpk - Loqi tweet parsing problem? the archives only show the first line of @kevinmarks's tweet: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-07
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www.sandeep.io
edited /multiple-reply (+328) "Added discussion section and asked about author UX flow."
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www.sandeep.io
edited /multiple-reply (+4) "/* Discussion */ fixed typo."
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sandeepshetty
tantek: sorry, did not understand if you agree with removing or want to keep it? (Re http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-07/line/1373241638)
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tantek
sandeepshetty - neither, I'm thinking of moving it to just an idea/brainstorming possibility
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tantek.com
edited /multiple-reply (+226) "/* Discussion */ good enough for now"
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www.sandeep.io
created /SBCE (+1080) "Adding this to the wiki because every time I read the principles page and the point about diversity of approaches/implementations, I'm reminded of this."
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www.sandeep.io
edited /principles (+416) "(discussion section) There seems to be an unwritten principle of focusing on UX, should be make it explicit?"
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www.sandeep.io
edited /principles (+0) "/* Discussion */ Fixed typo"
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www.sandeep.io
edited /comments-presentation (+517) "(discussion section) Noted objection to accounting for long posts where only a part of it is in-reply-to another post."
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tantek
sandeepshetty - difference from SBCE - there is no "final solution"
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tantek
in fact, that's true with anything on the web
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tantek
the web is constantly evolving
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tantek
if you ever think you've reached a "final solution" you've likely made a mistake
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sandeepshetty
I think they use the term final to mean something that can ship at the time (like indie-comments for example), no car design if of course final, you always have the next design and so on...
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sandeepshetty
(the customer needs and technology are also constantly evolving)
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tantek
I dislike the "final" framing
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tantek
for that reason
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tantek
everything is alway just good enough for that day/week/month
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tantek
also - I don't expect UI to converge
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tantek
I expect UI to *diverge* even more as we both try different things and grow our community
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tantek
and I think that's a good thing
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tantek
it's a strength of the indieweb - we encourage continuing diversity of UI / presentation
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tantek
those things don't need convergence
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tantek
we should only converge where it is needed
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tantek
formats & protocols - and I think we've been pretty good about that
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Loqi
it is probable
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www.sandeep.io
edited /deleted (+505) "/* No Plans To Implement */ Simple workaround to avoid 410, 404 and tombstoning. leads me to believe that update might be enough and we could skip the concept of delete altogether."
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sandeepshetty
I agree that "final" is a misnomer. Re UI converging: I think there are element that will converge like response counts, response details, etc.
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sandeepshetty
and comment display
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sandeepshetty
and POSSE links
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sandeepshetty
One UI problem I'm facing at the moment.. is that as I follow comment threads (by following the in-reply-to) I have to reorient myself to each commenters site and "figure" out where the in-reply-to link is...
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sandeepshetty
hopefully our implementations will eventually have thread-readers which will follow the in-reply-tos and present a better view on our own sites.
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www.sandeep.io
edited /deleted (+17) "/* No Plans To Implement */ turned my comment into a discussion."
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www.sandeep.io
edited /comment (+168) "/* Update a comment */ Added note about moderating updates (if you are moderating new comments)"
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www.sandeep.io
edited /deleted (+0) "/* Discussion */ Fixed typo"
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www.sandeep.io
edited /deleted (+240) "/* Discussion */ Interestingly this (delete-workaround) also gives the commenter (content-owner) more control over explaining the intent of the delete."
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pfefferle
good morning
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pfefferle
tantek: i have a mf2 question… i am implementing the reply context http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Markup
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pfefferle
is there any part in the mf2 spec that says the <div class="p-in-reply-to h-entry"> has to be inside the first h-entry or could it be also part of the p-content?
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pfefferle
the parser supports does support the p-content part… but i am not sure if it is a bug or not
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www.sandeep.io
edited /deleted (+590) "/* Discussion */ Added details of deleting non-comment responses using the workaround and converted to a list to facilitate discussion."
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www.sandeep.io
edited /deleted (-5) "/* Discussion */ Fixed Typo."
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Loqi
barnabywalters: aaronpk left you a message 11 hours, 58 minutes ago: thx for the idea of only showing errors if you're logged in, just implemented that in like 3 minutes
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pfefferle
barnabywalters: have a question about mf2, your parser and the reply context markup
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barnabywalters
pfefferle: fire away
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pfefferle
does the p-reply have to be a root-node of the h-entry
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pfefferle
or can it also be part of the e-content
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pfefferle
your parser supports both
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pfefferle
but is it a bug or a feature?
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barnabywalters
Yes, nested/child mf can be inside other properties
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barnabywalters
it’s a feature
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pfefferle
that means my reply context can be part of the e-content?
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barnabywalters
but in this case (putting p-in-reply-to in e-* content) I wouldn’t recommend it — what are you trying to achieve?
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pfefferle
it's more a wordpress-problem
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barnabywalters
because then when the reply gets syndicated back to the replied-to content, it’ll include the content again within the comment
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pfefferle
that's the negative part
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barnabywalters
which might work if it was a quoted excerpt, but would look weird for full reply contexts with author details and everything
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barnabywalters
what exactly is the wordpress problem? do you have some example code?
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pfefferle
yes, you are right… will try something different
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pfefferle
the problem is, that i need a hook that's inside the h-entry, but not inside of a sub node
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pfefferle
and i wanted to use wordpress' short codes for that and they only work inside the content
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pfefferle
but i implemented the comment part
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pfefferle
with threaded comment support
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barnabywalters
pfefferle: nice work
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pfefferle
thank's to your feedbck
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pfefferle
s/feedbck/feedback
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Loqi
pfefferle meant to say: thank's to your feedback
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pfefferle
added the h-entry to a higher node for the single view
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pfefferle
which also surrounds the comment part
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pfefferle
was easier than thought ;)
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www.sandeep.io
edited /deleted (+148) "/* Three Cases */ Possible solution for duplicate webmentions using rel="canonical""
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tantek
pfefferle - looks like barnabywalters answered your question about uf2 and h-entry vs. nested reply-context information etc. anything outstanding?
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pfefferle
no, everything clear now, thanks :)
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barnabywalters
^ I wrote a thing
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tommorris
giggles painfully at "As OPML is fairly standard"
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barnabywalters
tommorris: yeah, I wasn’t sure about that but wanted to say *something* nice about it
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barnabywalters
feed readers import it, right? or am I deluded?
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tommorris
In a previous life I worked on OPML validation
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tommorris
Sure, but there's some serious edge case issues
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barnabywalters
it’s more tangible+useful than whatever the hell “chat.json” is
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tommorris
Around OPML 1 vs 2, namespaced extensions, undocumented attribute values and so on.
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tommorris
but yes, in general, it's fairly useful
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tommorris
I found out that Wunderlist, the to-do list app I use, now lets you export JSON
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tommorris
I saw them tweeting about how another to-do service was shutting down and you could "save" your stuff by importing it into Wunderlist
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@naraliyeva96
@t @julien51 #indieweb #July4th
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tommorris
I was preparing to upbraid them for hypocrisy but then found they did a simple JSON export
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tommorris
barnabywalters: I think Twitter's general approach is pretty good - having the data and having a built in HTML+JS viewer.
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tommorris
it may not be perfect but I like the idea of having the viewer distributed with the data. makes it all the more time capsule compliant. because we're likely to have working browsers in twenty years time.
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tantek
tommorris - agreed
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tantek
reads barnabywalters's post on data-export
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tantek
that's great about the #microformats 2 h-entry support in the Twitter export!
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tantek
barnabywalters - did you add that to the h-entry page as an implementation?
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neuro`
Good morning (ugt)
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barnabywalters
tommorris: agreed, twitter comes out on top of the silos I tried
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barnabywalters
if they updated the readme and made the csv a little more useful it’d be really great
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@jaredhanson
Any #indieweb solution that begins with "own your own domain" will not work. It's time we start thinking different. Discuss.
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JonathanNeal
Anything going on with element queries?
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tantek
JonathanNeal what's the indieweb use case?
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JonathanNeal
use case: everybody and their mother wants to use element queries because media queries don't reflect elements within layouts.
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JonathanNeal
I think of #indiewebcamp as a kind of "move the web forward" channel, but is that too broad?
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JonathanNeal
tantek: if we're not testing this stuff on our own sites, then we'll never be willing to use them on clients sites.
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JonathanNeal
or demanding it for our own sites
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tantek
if there's no use case for our own sites, then why bother?
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tantek
#indiewebcamp is very much a move the web forward channel, but not just any random brainfart proposals for moving the web forward. rather, we filter web advancements by the simple question of how does it help my personal website right now?
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JonathanNeal
1. brainfart assumes error
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JonathanNeal
2. random proposal assumes no conscious need
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JonathanNeal
3. it helps my personal website by allowing me to control how things look based on how much room there is
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JonathanNeal
4. there is no universal "right now", IE6 is right now for a lot of people, flexbox is right now for others.
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tantek
re: 1. assumption of error of proposals is reasonable given the incredibly bad track record of w3.org/TR drafts as a whole, and IETF RFCs as a whole
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tantek
2. random proposal similar is a reasonable conclusion as while not literally random, the aforementioned specs often pursue a *theoretical* need rather than an actual real-world documented use-cases based need, and thus "random" is a reasonable adjective (theory without data/research might as well be random)
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tantek
3. if it helps your personal website, great, implement and deploy it!
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tantek
4. you're right that "right now" is in the eye of the personal website publisher
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neuro`
I love your #2.
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Loqi
i love me too
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neuro`
Loqi: you talk too much.
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JonathanNeal
tab thought they were worth talking about too http://www.xanthir.com/b4PR0
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JonathanNeal
or rather he was pestered enough
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@jaredhanson
@haxor I think its worth considering that we may need an alternative to DNS to fully realize IndieWeb goals. /cc @shawndrape
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aaronpk
methinks loqi should be putting the tweet permalinks in here
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aaronpk
Loqi: fix it
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Loqi
dude
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barnabywalters
good evening indiewebcamp
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aaronpk
good morning
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barnabywalters
JonathanNeal: RE element-scoped media queries, I wanted to use them enough that I built them
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barnabywalters
specifically, my use case was creating a “new note” dialog which could be reused in many different contexts
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JonathanNeal
cool, got the implementation to share?
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barnabywalters
JonathanNeal: the js is all messy because I made the mistake of using backbone, but it’s all out there
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barnabywalters
essentially I use a combination of iframes and postMessage to create responsive UIs which can be embedded into other contexts or sites
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barnabywalters
the iframes make a new browsing context with it’s own viewport
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barnabywalters
and then postMessage lets the target know it’s not the primary browsing context, and it gets rid of thing like headers and footers
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barnabywalters
actually it could all be made a lot better, but it was an interesting learning experience
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aaronpk
fun little thread going there ^
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aaronpk
twitter still has the closest to the full conversation view: https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/354339299321331714
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@aaronpk
@jaredhanson The beautiful thing about the #indieweb movement is people are focusing on building for themselves... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/07/08/4/indieweb
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barnabywalters
anyone here come across namecoin/tried using it?
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barnabywalters
IIRC that works today
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aaronpk
well POSSE/PESOS give us "backwards compatibility" with existing social networks today. is there something similar for .bit?
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barnabywalters
isn’t .bit essentially that anyway? a bridge between current DNS and namecoin?
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tantek
at lunch at the W3C Technical Plenary 1.5 years ago, in an discussion with TBL, we proposed a hypothetical .p TLD (to be purchased) that could be used for peer-to-peer DNS
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barnabywalters
how is a TLD actually set up? who/what controls it?
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tantek
having W3C or some similar body be the "registrar" for .p would be how you got backward compat with DNS
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barnabywalters
you can run your own name servers right?
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tantek
barnabywalters - TLDs are now up for sale at very high prices
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aaronpk
yea, i've run a .haus domain for where I was living a few years ago
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barnabywalters
tantek: yeah, but there’s someone controlling that who can add new ones arbitrarily
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barnabywalters
’s lower-than-HTTP level internet knowledge is sorely lacking
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tantek
barnabywalters - exactly, or not arbitrarily, but rather according to a (hypothetical) peer-to-peer naming protocol
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tantek
behind the scenes, you have no idea how the .p DNS servers work
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tantek
they could be doing any kind of dynamic magic they please
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tantek
this would let you give peer to peer named things actual URLs for back-compat
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tantek
how does namecoin work with URLs?
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tantek
anyway, like aaronpk said, not the highest priority for (most of?) us
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aaronpk
tantek: this is not the first time someone has brought this up. we should probably address in the FAQ: https://twitter.com/jaredhanson/status/354341413267312640
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@jaredhanson
@aaronpk and I love that! But for indieweb to become web, we'll also have to build for others.
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aaronpk
the "build for others" part
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tantek
it's in the anti-patterns
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aaronpk
yes, it's an anti-pattern to start building things for others. but eventually software will need to be built for others because not everyone will build stuff for themselves
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tantek
his tweet also has an implied "at some point" - http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#at_some_point
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tantek
aaronpk - funny, (nearly) everyone seems to buy cell phone numbers for themselves without difficulty.
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aaronpk
how is that analogous?
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tantek
the point is that explicitly worrying this far in advance about "building for others" is just dumb framing
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tantek
it's pointless handwaving
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tantek
the "indieweb" is a tough enough problem space that right now the only people making conceptual progress in it are the people first building for themsevles
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tantek
Jared's got a beautiful hCard on his home page: http://jaredhanson.net/
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tantek
but he's not really actively building on his indieweb site… so… perhaps we should invite him to get started with doing so?
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barnabywalters
goodnight all
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Loqi
night
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bret
Good afternoon #indiewebcamp
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bret
catches up on the IRC logs since thursday
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bret
tantek: are you still in portland?
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tantek
I am!
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bret
cool!
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bret
are there any IW hack sessions in the works?
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tantek
I could be up for some afternoon indieweb hacking before I head to the airport!
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bret
aww dang, you are leaving today?
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bret
what time are you out of here?
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aaronpk
holy crap, just installed a TOTP authenticator app on my Pebble watch and used it to log in to IndieAuth
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bret
thats unexpected
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aaronpk
and awesome
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bret
blog about that
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tantek
aaronpk - that sounds amazing
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aaronpk
doesn't even require an active network connection, my phone can be out of battery and it will still work
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bret
you turned your watch into a key
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tantek
that's kind of amazing
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tantek
no need to wait for an SMS (insecure anyway)
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tantek
bret - are you around downtown Portland?
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tantek
I'm thinking of maybe heading to Backspace for a bit
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bret
I am at PSU, so just south of downtownwn
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bret
tantek: how much time do you have left, I can probably make it out there by 3:30ish
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tantek
bret I probably need to get going by ~17:00
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tantek
so 15:30 sounds good for an afternoon coffee + snack
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tantek
and some indieweb hacking :)
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bret
oh yeah
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bret
aaronpk: you around to come by?
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aaronpk
i'm in San Diego
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bret
who else might be around?
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tantek
wow - amazingly long Wikipedia article behind today's Google doodle
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@t
Ask not what the #indieweb can build for you or others — ask what you can create for your own indieweb site. (ttk.me t4Qu3)
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@CalebJenkins
RT @t: Ask not what the #indieweb can build for you or others — ask what you can create for your own indieweb site. (ttk.me t4Qu3)
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@t
Ask not what #indiewebcamp will do for you, but what together we can create for the freedom of the web.
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tantek
aaronpk - that's my use of a quote per your discussion this morning.
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aaronpk
what was I talking about?
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tantek
you and jared
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aaronpk
ah yes
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aaronpk
perfect
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tantek
hmm … what happens if I happen to embed h-event markup inside a note....
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aaronpk
heh... happens where?
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tantek
in Falcon :)
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tantek
and it looks like the answer is it breaks my site
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tantek
no it did eventually load. wow
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tantek
is my site slow for anyone else?
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@t
Portland friends, doing one last coffee &amp
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Loqi
snack meetup / #indieweb hack session 15:30 today at Backspace: backspace.bz (ttk.me t4Qu5)
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aaronpk
this took like 9 seconds before i started getting content http://tantek.com/2013/189/t5/portland-coffee-indieweb-hack-session-backspace but now it's back to normal
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tantek
probably just a shared server hickup
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bret
tantek: not particularly
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tantek
cool thanks. looks like Falcon ignores the extra markup because it's a note. The h-event markup didn't make it through to the permalink.
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bret
are you displaying RSVPs now?
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@santialaise
RT @t: Portland friends, doing one last coffee &amp
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Loqi
snack meetup / #indieweb hack session 15:30 today at Backspace: backspace.bz (ttk.me t4Qu5)
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tantek
bret - no, I'm still working on doing "proper" reply support including auto-detected POSSE threading
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tantek
and better reply-context: details: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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bret
ill check it out
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bret
I'm almost to displaying ping back.me data
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bret
pignback.me*
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+102) "/* Post Types */ note replies show minimal reply-context"
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bret
Ok, I'm going to head over to backspace now
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tantek
heading over to backspace...
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julien51
aaronpk yt?
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julien51
May I show you something?
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aaronpk
sure, may have to run in a second though
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julien51
ok, see notifix who just joined the room? That's a RSS -> IM bot supporting both XMPP and IRC
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aaronpk
oh nice!
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julien51
now, it will make it easy to test PuSH installs :)
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notifix
You were successfully subscribed to http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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notifix
Publisher example: Hello Aaron!
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julien51
the last 2 lines have been posted on http://push-pub.appspot.com/
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aaronpk
that's awesome
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bret
julien51: i found a project that can provide an adequate solution to the github pages web hook problem
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julien51
+list
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notifix
Here is the list of your subscriptions:
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julien51
I'll let you guys play with your own installs too
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julien51
ha, it looks like there is a small bug in unsubscribe
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julien51
let me fix that
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julien51
bret: awesome! Let me know more by email if you can :)
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bret
ok! its just a simple way to send update notifications that was originally a work around for a different problem, but we figured we could add a parameter to delay incoming updates for a moment until github works out their issue
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julien51
aaronpk: the notifix bot also support direct messages… if you don't want to bother everyone in he room with subscriptions and notifications :)
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aaronpk
awesome
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aaronpk
is the source up somewhere? would love to poke at it
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julien51
aaronpk: exactly!
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julien51
aaronpk: but it needs a lot of love
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julien51
please don't advertise it yet!
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aaronpk
haha ok
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julien51
I wanted to share it because it could help people ty out their Push installs
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julien51
+list
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julien51
and I have to check with nodejitsu if it can run reliably there too
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@aira_kimie
RT @t: Portland friends, doing one last coffee &amp
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Loqi
snack meetup / #indieweb hack session 15:30 today at Backspace: backspace.bz (ttk.me t4Qu5)
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@aira_kimie
RT @t: Ask not what #indiewebcamp will do for you, but what together we can create for the freedom of the web.
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julien51
+list
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julien51
+join #indiewebcamp
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notifix
You were successfully unsubscribed to http://push-pub.appspot.com/feed
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julien51
+list
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notifix
You are not subscribed to any feed at this point.
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julien51
ok, folks, good night!
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aaronpk
goodnight! great work!
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Loqi
sleep tight!
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Loqi
gute nacht!
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tantek
julien51, by "please don't advertise it yet!", do you mean http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-07-08/line/1373323772 ?
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tantek
brainstorming purely clientside webmentions with bret
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tantek
could be doable with a webmention proxy
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tantek
to workaround cross-domain limitations
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tantek
e.g. a script src="url to webmention proxy, with params of webmention target, webmention source"
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tantek
and then webmention proxy would actually do the webmention to the target (via endpoint discovery, just as usual)
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tantek
and then return the webmention result as JSON
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tantek
to the calling/embedding page
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chloeweil.com
created /User:Chloeweil.com (+158) "Created page with "<div class="vcard"> <a class="url fn" href="http://chloeweil.com">Chloe Weil</a> <a class="email" href="mailto:me@chloeweil.com">me@chloeweil.com</a> </div>""
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@t
#IndieWeb Creators: email hhalpin@w3.org TODAY and join @W3C #SocialWeb workshop 2013-08-07…08 in SF. More: http://tantek.com/2013/189/t6/indieweb-creators-today-join-w3c-socialweb-workshop-sf
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