#indiewebcamp 2013-08-22

2013-08-22 UTC
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bret I would rather futz with a domain and shared hosting than my own SMTP server any day
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bret josephg: have you looked into web finger or web fist at all? I believe they are trying to take the gravatar solution and make work for any set of info you might want to discover off of an email address like identifier
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aaronpk uhoh, tantek is here. nobody say "email"
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bret runs
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bret :p jk
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josephg :D
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josephg bret: eh.
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josephg they don't really solve the problem I don't think
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josephg tried logging in -> Internal Server Error
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aaronpk logging in to what?
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bret given an email, get avatar
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bret key
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bret favorite color
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bret etc
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josephg tried logging in to webfinger
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bret web fist is supposedly the fallback network for when the email provider that you can attach data to an email address with when the email provider does not directly support web finger lookups]
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bret not sure if its up and running yet
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josephg hm - webfist is much closer to what I want
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bret http://www.onebigfluke.com/2013/06/bootstrapping-webfinger-with-webfist.html
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josephg yep, reading that now
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josephg so, I want that, but easier to set up
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bret not everyone can be as smart as those fancy googlers :p myself included
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josephg its a good start though. (I'm imagining logging in using persona, and 'generate key' button on the website rather than needing to email a URL pointing to some JSON)
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bret err maybe experienced is a better word
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bret josephg: I like the idea of web finger + fist rather than bringing life to another central point of failure that is gravitar
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bret but the simplicity is a nice notion
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bret maybe an axuilery service could be used to make retrieval simple?
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josephg whatever I build, I want it to be decentralized (libravatar.org style)
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josephg ... but yeah, I have no problem with the fallback / failover thing
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josephg I don't like auxilerary services for lookup because they become an attack target
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bret gmail "dark launched" web-finger support natively, but even brad fitzpatrick can't talk the mothership into launching yet
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josephg for keykitten (or webfist or whatever), the fallback server should post its SSL certs widely so it can't be MITM'ed using compromised CAs
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josephg - and if there's another lookup service, it'll need the same treatment
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josephg bret: thats great - I had no idea google cared about this stuff.
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bret the other thing is that, even though everyone has an email address, gmail will never support encryption, so then you are back to setting up clients for family members
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josephg 'even X can't talk the mothership into Y' is true for most values of X and Y, if we're talking about google.
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josephg its so huge
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josephg thats ok - lets solve the "given email address -> find crypto key" problem first
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josephg (along with setting that up)
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bret I mean, I ubiquitous email encryption is a great goal I want that
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josephg even with pgp, I don't think email is good enough to be considered 'secure'
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josephg - even if I send you an encrypted email, the sender, recipient, subject and metadata is all sent in plaintext
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bret I want ZRTP enabled webRTC
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josephg and even with TLS, its readable by both host's email servers
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josephg - but as I say, lets start with crypto keys first.
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bret josephg: hang around and chat with the mail pile guys
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bret I think you have similar goals
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bret http://www.mailpile.is/ I think Brennan novak is the one who hangs out in IRC the most
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josephg where are they on IRC?
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josephg #mailpile here?
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bret in this channel!
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bret but they might also have have their on
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bret own
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josephg well, given their indiegogo campaign just hit the mark, I wouldn't be surprised if they're busy
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josephg and yeah - there's a bunch of people in #mailpile
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josephg lurks
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bret josephg: although I must say, I recommend dabbling in some of the Web side of things. Its a lot of fun and you get a better website out of the work you put in :)
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bret like adding in some uF2, basic reply contacted, even sending some web mentions by hand just to see how it works
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bret contexts*
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bret stupid auto correct
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tantek reads up on logs.
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tantek it seems to me the "email" discussion is mixing two things:
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tantek 1. email as identity (already debunked by http://indiewebcamp.com/Why_web_sign-in#Why_not_email )
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tantek 2. email as a mechanism for personal messaing
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tantek s/messaing/messaging
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Loqi tantek meant to say: 2. email as a mechanism for personal messaging
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tantek 2 is a more interesting discussion IMO
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tantek especially for say, private messaging where you take some measures to reduce the chances that others can read messages sent between yourself and your intended recipients.
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tantek I think it's important to discuss (2) as "personal messaging" rather than "email" because "personal messaging" is the actual feature/use-case, and "email" is just *one* technology at attempts to solve the use-case
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tantek e.g. "SMS" is another such technology
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tantek or "IM
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tantek "
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tantek or "DM"
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tantek or "PM" (irc)
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tantek and "DM" is company specific (Twitter)
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tantek other company specific solutions included FB Messenger and Apple iMessage (Messages iOS/MacOS App).
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tantek email, though presumptively ever-present, is polluted/noisy/distracting technology when it comes to personal messaging.
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tantek thus I (and anecdotally, many/most I know) have abandoned email for day-to-day critical personal messaging and instead use one of the other solutions: iMessage, FB Messenger, DM, or even SMS.
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tantek from an "indieweb" perspective, I find this transition both interesting, and perhaps useful for clues as to where/how indieweb messaging should work - that is, *why* are people migrating from email (supposedly open, federated, etc.) to other solutions which are seemingly more friendly, more usable, faster / lower latency, less noisy, quicker, etc.
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tantek I think there is unexplored promise in this use-case: http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases#messaging
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tantek and perhaps we also have an opportunity to define what "friending" on the indieweb means - perhaps it means two people have agreed to let each other send indieweb personal messages back/forth.
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tantek (and like bret says, I have zero desire to figure out / implement SMTP or IMAP or POP on my own server.) we can do better with web technologies and how modern messaging solutions have raised the bar in terms of UI/UX (compared to email).
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@bear6877 RT @TMarguerite: We Roam The Seas by Theresa Marguerite Hewitt @iBooks $.99 pre-order https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/we-roam-seas-book-1-viking/id687865489?mt=11 #historicalromance #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370370874773237760)
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp
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@appfusions RT @HTMLdaily: W3C this week: #HTML5 Web Apps in Amazon #Appstore, kill #CAPTCHAs, #osfw3c --W3C Social Stds Workshop http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2013JulSep/0005.html (twitter.com/_/status/370400242627141632)
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@ellenfeaheny RT @HTMLdaily: W3C this week: #HTML5 Web Apps in Amazon #Appstore, kill #CAPTCHAs, #osfw3c --W3C Social Stds Workshop http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3c-digest/2013JulSep/0005.html (twitter.com/_/status/370400242652291072)
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@splendidwebtech RT @appfusions: RT @HTMLdaily: W3C this week: #HTML5 Web Apps in Amazon #Appstore, kill #CAPTCHAs, #osfw3c --W3C Social Stds Workshop http:… (twitter.com/_/status/370400557489745920)
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@splendidwebtech RT @ellenfeaheny: RT @HTMLdaily: W3C this week: #HTML5 Web Apps in Amazon #Appstore, kill #CAPTCHAs, #osfw3c --W3C Social Stds Workshop htt… (twitter.com/_/status/370400559142285312)
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@mrvijayakumar RT @appfusions: RT @HTMLdaily: W3C this week: #HTML5 Web Apps in Amazon #Appstore, kill #CAPTCHAs, #osfw3c --W3C Social Stds Workshop http:… (twitter.com/_/status/370401617990135808)
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tantek.com edited /FAQ (+330) "Who are we making software for" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+336) "/* perspectives */ add Barnaby's perspective on creating for yourself" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /selfdogfood (+384) "/* perspectives */ Aaronparecki" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /email (+259) "reorg a bit - add criticism section" (view diff)
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cweiske was there a spec about notifications/webhook registration and deregistration somewhere?
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@AlfonsoRomay Anda, en @DiarioTuring hablan del movimiento #IndieWeb http://www.eldiario.es/turing/meshnet-guifi-net-red_alternativa-indie_web_0_166583925.html del que hablamos por aquí hace tiempo: http://alfonsoromay.com/2012/07/movimientos-hacia-una-web-independiente/ (twitter.com/_/status/370498871761575936)
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pfefferle cweiske do you have something special in mind or just in general? #webhooks
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cweiske I thought we talked about pubsubhubhub some time ago and about it's new spec 0.4, which goes away from feed, toward a more http-friendly solution
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cweiske and I thought we talked about registering/deregistering callback/webhooks for the resources, too
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cweiske I'm not sure what the outcome was
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cweiske or the proposed solution
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pfefferle i can only remember the push descussion, but not anything about webhooks in general
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pfefferle sorry
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cweiske they are identical IMO
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cweiske push registration or webhook registration
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cweiske you get notified once it changed
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pfefferle here are some discussions: http://indiewebcamp.com/push-vs-pull http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub http://indiewebcamp.com/pubsub
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cweiske http://pubsubhubbub.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/pubsubhubbub-core-0.4.html#anchor4
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cweiske a POST to the hub
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cweiske with parameter subscribe/unsubscribe
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cweiske ah
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pfefferle ???
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cweiske pubsub it was dubbed
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cweiske thanks pfefferle
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pfefferle your welcome :)
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pfefferle cweiske btw. do you have your webfinger/xrd/jrd code somewhere at github?
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cweiske sure
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cweiske https://github.com/pear/net_webfinger
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cweiske https://github.com/pear/xml_xrd
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cweiske xml_xrd also parses+generates jrd
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pfefferle i saw that, but is it the actual version?
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cweiske it is
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pfefferle ok
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cweiske the announcement in my blog came 3 months late
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cweiske because I wanted to have the docs updated first
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pfefferle ah ok, that's why :)
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pfefferle i thought i found one or two things missing in the code when i had a quick look
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cweiske tell me when you found them again
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pfefferle i think you missed property support for <Link />… is that possible?
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cweiske what are you referring to?
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cweiske xml_xrd?
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cweiske link tags?
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pfefferle xml_xrd
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cweiske https://github.com/pear/XML_XRD/blob/master/src/XML/XRD/Loader/XML.php#L134
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/370539468195119104)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #… (twitter.com/_/status/370541787829764096)
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@I_M_Telling RT @TMarguerite: We Roam The Seas by Theresa Marguerite Hewitt @iBooks $.99 pre-order https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/we-roam-seas-book-1-viking/id687865489?mt=11 #historicalromance #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/370546858982375424)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/370572530480054272)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production by Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #… (twitter.com/_/status/370575707564687360)
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@benwerd Are hackers outsider artists? What do the #indieweb and #zines have in common? Yes, this is a #SXSW panel: http://panelpicker.sxsw.com/vote/24653 (twitter.com/_/status/370591007127003136)
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: Are hackers outsider artists? What do the #indieweb and #zines have in common? Yes, this is a #SXSW panel: http://t.co/mbu2A6f… (twitter.com/_/status/370593698850942976)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 2 (twitter.com/_/status/370603508363694080)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370603976699699200)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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wardn hey tantek
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@brianjesse voted for this #indieweb session at #sxsw #panelpicker http://panelpicker.sxsw.com/vote/24653#sthash.wSfhNUsQ.uxfs /via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/370604988046639105)
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tantek.com edited /Category:building-blocks (-60) "/* Mentions */ simplify to the *key* building block for indieweb mentions" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: thanks for the input on the email discussion, very helpful framing
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tantek aaronpk - absolutely
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tantek have been trying to untangle the apparent contradictions between various different opinions on the topic
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tantek hopefully the uplevel reframing will help
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wardn I liked how you made the distinction between the identifier and the format
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tantek thanks wardn - I do think they are separate discussions
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tantek even if interrelated / overlapping in parts.
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aaronpk '"personal messaging" is the actual feature/use-case, and "email" is just *one* technology at attempts to solve the use-case' <-- this is key
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tantek hey benwerd, congrats on keeping the indieweb flame alive in SXSW proposals: http://panelpicker.sxsw.com/vote/24653
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benwerd tantek - it's not all about the indieweb, but I figured that could be my contribution :)
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benwerd annoyed about the typo though
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benwerd ben werdbuller indeed.
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benwerd some might argue a more appropriate name.
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wardn aaronpk: I've been grappling with that that one for awhile... I'd like to generalize even further and say "messaging" and perhaps have a "personal" use case... but the implementation has eluded me
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wardn essentially an email-like implementation of pubsub
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tantek Bueller? Bueller?
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wardn it'd be nice to have a way for services to publish into the site as well... sorta like Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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wardn and have a single event-handler implementation that sorted it all out
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tantek I for one really like what gtalk/gmail combination does, with being able to gtalk someone, and it "works" even if they're offline and shows up as a "recent chat from" in their email.
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tantek wardn - I think the services-to-sites use-case is VERY different than the human-to-human messaging use-case.
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tantek very different UI/UX requirements
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wardn yeah... presenting the message in context is the difficult part
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XgF tantek: Experience with pump.io says otherwise. The federation and submission protocols are identical
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tantek I think there are many difficult parts to "user messaging"
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tantek XgF - insufficient experience - you don't have a good messaging UX to point to
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XgF tantek: There isn't a "person to person" messaging UX yet, no
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tantek and trying to shoehorn upwards, from protocol up to UX, is the tail wagging the dog.
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XgF tantek: But there are private conversations
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tantek XgF - then you don't have experience to say so.
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tantek since person to person messaging is what we're talking about
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XgF But theres absolutely nothing stopping one of us e.g. taking your direct feed and surfacing it as a Facebook-like UI
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tantek XgF - in that case, it's hypothetical til then. ;)
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wardn at the end of the day though, you basically have two attributes to deal with in any form of messaging... type and content... the rest is just how you generate and process those two fields
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tantek and until then, it's more interesting to discuss actual messaging UIs we use (as the ones I listed last night)
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tantek wardn - again, I disagree.
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wardn that's cool... I'm curious about your perspective though
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tantek at the end of the day, the UX is what matters, regardless of attributes, protocols
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wardn definitely
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wardn from my perspective, I'd like a general message producer/consumer so I can implement it once, and then spend the rest of my time focusing on the UX
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aaronpk isn't that what app.net is supposed to be?
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wardn aaronpk: I've been away from web dev for awhile, so you'll have to bear with me while I catch up... looking into it now
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wardn limited to 256 characters though
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wardn but yeah
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XgF While I've just mentioned it I should point out that Pump.io is designed to be usable in that way also (you can turn off the UI and use it as a pure API server)
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tantek wardn - I think that's a misplaced priority, "a general message producer/consumer so I can implement it once" is also like saying "a general parser so I can implement it once"
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tantek and that's the kind of reasoning that led people to push for XML over everything else
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tantek misplaced focus on solving infrastructure *before* UX
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tantek turns out that doesn't actually help you solve the UX, which is the real problem
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tantek and if you have good UX, turns out the infrastructure/plumbing can be almost anything, and swapped out later too
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tantek this is perhaps a key distinguishing feature/aspect of the indieweb and indieweb efforts
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barnabywalters and probably the bit we’ve documented the least
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tantek we focus on UX first, and then as we figure that out we build/develop/subset the absolutely simplest most minimal protocols sufficient to support that UX, and nothing more.
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wardn I see
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tantek if you don't know what UX you want, you'll overdesign/overengineer your protocols & formats.
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tantek as nearly all protocols & formats are
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aaronpk that should probably go on the front page
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@fdeamelin ¡ Crear unaalternativa a Internet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/370614577630679040)
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tantek.com edited /link-preview (+103) "improve definition to be independent of silo specifics, document silo specifics" (view diff)
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Loqi [@JamieMcGuire_] RT @teameddy: I just squealed so loud when I saw that @JamieMcGuire_, @AbbiGlines &amp
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Loqi @colleenhoover r coming 2 San Diego in oct 4 #indieauth… (http://twtr.io/bmcREeLhXU)
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Loqi [@TEdunWrites] RT @teameddy: I just squealed so loud when I saw that @JamieMcGuire_, @AbbiGlines &amp
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Loqi @colleenhoover r coming 2 San Diego in oct 4 #indieauth… (http://twtr.io/bmcqhAPKKV)
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tantek aaronpk perhaps -"#indieauth…" ?
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tantek.com edited /pingback (+25) "no longer a building block, superseded by webmention" (view diff)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 2 (twitter.com/_/status/370633001811845120)
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tantek.com edited /PubSubHubbub (+241) "noting no indieweb sites consuming PuSH notifications, not an essential building block" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /OpenID-fr (-35) "not an essential indieweb building block" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /OpenID (+28) "has been superseded by web-sign-in / indieauth" (view diff)
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Loqi not an essential indieweb building block
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370635416342626304)
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tantek.com edited /Category:building-blocks (+1904) "start moving historical building blocks to their own section so folks don't get the wrong impression and start implementing dead ends" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /permalinks-fr (+3) "Category:building-blocks-fr" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE-fr (+3) "Category:building-blocks-fr" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webmention-fr (+3) "Category:building-blocks-fr" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indieauth-fr (+3) "Category:building-blocks-fr" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Category:building-blocks (+161) "permalinks already part of posts, expand on citations, mv original-post-discovery" (view diff)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films (twitter.com/_/status/370644213161271296)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370645359263236096)
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tantek.com edited /email (+276) "criticism: Not web, Not web identifiers" (view diff)
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tantek anybody have any idea how the "x doesn't know what a url is" misconception is propagated or where it comes from?
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tantek nearly every product in the store and every advertisement has a URL today
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tantek e.g. like: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-21/line/1377127474
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tantek.com edited /web-sign-in (+46) "sign-in-use-cases" (view diff)
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@antonio_elias Operación: resetear la Red #IndieWeb #Hacking http://www.eldiario.es/turing/meshnet-guifi-net-red_alternativa-indie_web_0_166583925.html (twitter.com/_/status/370660225231380480)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 4 (twitter.com/_/status/370663239707029505)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370664013782614016)
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bret so in that case, someone with a low computer literacy confuses the search bar in gmail with the url bar, probably due to similar geometry and placement?
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tantek such confusion is confusion with the UI of gmail+browser, not confusion that a URL is an identifier
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tantek regardless of where they type it in, if a user types in a URL, they've formed the association that the URL identifies something / someone. typing it in the right place is a matter of improving the UI.
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hadleybeeman tantek: That confusion comes up a lot when you're talking about the non-developer world. Average person on the street generally doesn't know what a URL is — especially by that name.
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hadleybeeman We hear it a lot in digital inclusion discussions. (Putting government services online... but what about the people who aren't really online?)
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hadleybeeman That sort of thing.
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hadleybeeman Does that help? (I'm not sure what's prompting your question here...)
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tantek that's why every ad and every product has a URL on it
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hadleybeeman San Francisco probably isn't representative of the rest of the world. :)
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tantek hadleybeeman - what prompted the question is the often mistaken assumption that people understand email but not web.
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hadleybeeman Ahh
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hadleybeeman Okay. In that case, I would say most I've run into would call it a "web address" (or something similar)
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hadleybeeman So you're right, they'd know the concept. But probably not the term "URL"
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tantek hadleybeeman - yes, the NYT recommended terminology for URL is "web address"
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hadleybeeman Do they have a glossary? I'd love to see what else is on it
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tantek hence the description here: http://microformats.org/wiki/web_sign-in
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tantek NYT published it years ago
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hadleybeeman goes off searching
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hadleybeeman Well, given that it's not in their Objective-C Style Guide (which seems to be the only one available online) — it's probably in the NYTimes Manual of Style and Usage. Which is only in paper.
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hadleybeeman Well done.
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tantek I was going to say, good luck trying to google for it.
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hadleybeeman Indeed.
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 5 (twitter.com/_/status/370679384426180608)
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@FilmCrowdfunder RT @_Ayudos: Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayu… (twitter.com/_/status/370679600541863936)
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rknLA aloha
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rknLA oof. 24 hours of unread messages. thats a lot of logs.
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bret https://github.com/peers/peerjs way col
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bret cool*
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pdurbin somehow I thought you meant http://peerj.com
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pdurbin (which is also cool)
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@_Ayudos Men Dilemmas: Custard Sisters #Production Alicia Custard http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1006427521/men-dilemmas-custard-sisters-production #webseries #indieweb #indieshow #indietv #ayudos #films 6 (twitter.com/_/status/370694524039094272)
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