#indiewebcamp 2013-08-26

2013-08-26 UTC
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aaronpk companies like dreamhost have done a good job of making it easy to install wordpress, so that model has already been proven out
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scottjenson_ No, that all sounds fine
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scottjenson_ My host has the same 'click and it's working' for wordpress as well
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scottjenson_ I assume the same thing will come with this
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scottjenson_ But there is also a bigger issue other than just installation
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scottjenson_ We just don't have many examples of fairly complex federated systems
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scottjenson_ That was, I think Messina's other point
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scottjenson_ That last big one was SMTP?
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aaronpk yeah, email is pretty much the only big one
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aaronpk jabber too i guess
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scottjenson_ This is a negative way of saying it but why don't we have more examples of this?
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aaronpk most other attempts are foiled by http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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scottjenson_ Yeah, but the web DID beat out AOL/Prodigy eventually
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aaronpk also the http://indiewebcamp.com/silo pattern is too easy to get sucked into due to pressures of VCs
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scottjenson_ We need to find the ways in which federated systems outrun proprietary systems, much like the web did
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aaronpk I think we're at a breaking point for silos though, there have been a lot of negative effects of them in the last couple years and I think people are getting tired
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aaronpk but there hasn't been a lot of room to test out alternative business models (http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models) because there has been so much money in the existing modles
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scottjenson_ yes, and the recent NSA issue has raised encryption as another leverage point (although I'm not sure most consumers really care)
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scottjenson_ I would argue that making systems that are close to today's products but 'open' or even a 'bit better' is the wrong approach
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scottjenson_ we need to be experimenting making completely new systems that the silos can't touch
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scottjenson_ and that likely requires a bit of experimentation
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caseorganic ScottJenson: hey there!
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scottjenson_ I think Camlistore, as low level as it is, has HUGE potential to make entirely new collection/storage/sharing apps
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scottjenson_ hello!
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scottjenson_ You're just joining us in the middle of 'will federated sw every beat the evil silos' conversation
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aaronpk scottjenson_: I'd be curious to collect some ideas on "completely new systems"
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abrereton hi guys. can i just say that this conversation was a great introduction into what you guys are doing. very insightful
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aaronpk abrereton: thanks! it's hard to present this all on the wiki in a concise way.
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scottjenson_ I've been ranting on a discovery API for smart devices so my mobile browser and 'control' anything nearby (but I don't think that's really interesting to the IW group)
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aaronpk scottjenson_: certainly interesting to me ;)
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scottjenson_ I would think that a federated ID system (or the moral equivialent) would unlock all sorts of interesting things (like spam reduction for one) as well as banning passwords forever
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aaronpk speaking of which...
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scottjenson_ And a centralized storage system allows me to store everything, on all servers on MY storage, not others so I have everythign in one please
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scottjenson_ place
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aaronpk now that you're on IRC, you can add yourself to the IRC people page! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:UserLogin&returnto=IRC_People
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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aaronpk speaking of federated IDs, your site is your login to the wiki
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scottjenson_ Yeah, I just had to add a rel="me" link so that would work
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scottjenson_ Which just goes to prove my previous point… ;-)
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aaronpk baby steps! this is a huge improvement over explaining how to delegate your domain to an openid provider
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scottjenson_ yeah
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aaronpk a 6-letter change is pretty good
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scottjenson_ amber, you still therE?
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scottjenson_ btw, aaron, I can't edit the page
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aaronpk the edit link is way on the bottom
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aaronpk once you're siged in
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scottjenson_ <hits head>
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jenson.org edited /IRC_People (+54) (view diff)
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jenson.org edited /IRC_People (+7) (view diff)
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jenson.org edited /IRC_People (-1) (view diff)
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scottjenson_ wow, that's embarrassing, each edit gets dumped here (wikis and I don't get along…)
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aaronpk wiki syntax is somewhat cryptic
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scottjenson_ ok, I'm going to have to bug out soon, I just wanted to say thanks aaron for the very patient conversation from your side
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scottjenson_ I hope we can keep this up
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aaronpk thanks for the questions!
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neuro` Wiki syntax is a pain, I think that's the reason why I avoid them like plague.
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scottjenson_ I'm looking forward to the results from the next IndieWeb camp in the UK. Hope you cover some very exciting ground
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aaronpk thanks! I'm looking forward to it!
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/25/2/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-25#t1377474011 (webmention)
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@aaronpk @chrismessina @BarnabyWalters @ade_oshineye I had a great follow-up conversation with @scottjenson on IRC! Logged... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/25/2/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/371791450507190272)
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Loqi [mention] http://apcrunch.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014-5/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://californiakingsets.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://apcrunch.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014-6/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://apcrunch.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014-7/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://apcrunch.com/conferences-roundup-upcoming-web-design-events-sept-2013-feb-2014-8/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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@Brianmcse RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/371820352135237634)
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@Bestdietbook RT @gaelynnwoods: Is bigger always better? With regards to #books, of course... Chime in on THE BIG HEAT: http://gaelynnwoods.blogspot.com/2013/08/does-size-matter-sorry-all-you-sex.html #indieauth… (twitter.com/_/status/371820598185705472)
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tantek aaronpk - nice dialog with ScottJenson
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tantek thought I saw a few things worthy of adding to the FAQ
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neuro` Morning
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Jihaisse hello
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@egadenne Jailbreaking the internet : #IndieWeb group wants to take back the internet http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/indie-web-cloud-computing-data-security-internet-freedom/521509f102a7600dad0002aa?ncid=twitter via @HuffPostLive (twitter.com/_/status/371924191554965504)
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@egadenne Jailbreaking the internet : #IndieWeb group wants to take back the internet http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/indie-web-cloud-computing-data-security-internet-freedom/521509f102a7600dad0002aa?ncid=twitter #LeBateau via @HuffPostLive (twitter.com/_/status/371924321393860608)
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@toontoet Het Internet jailbreaken? Bouw mee aan het #Indieweb: http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/indie-web-cloud-computing-data-security-internet-freedom/521509f102a7600dad0002aa (twitter.com/_/status/371926201167667200)
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@jihaisse Projet "Le Bateau" #indieweb http://jihais.se/2013/08/26/projet-le-bateau-indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/371952001556295680)
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Loqi [@aral] Quick reminder: don’t forget to sign up for @indiewebcamp — I know the sign up process is a bitch
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Loqi come let’s talk UX http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (http://twtr.io/buXCRu9Y9b)
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Loqi [@honorharger] In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Then come along to IndieWebCamp at @LighthouseArts, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (http://twtr.io/buYcVKMU28)
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barnabywalters RE ^: I was thinking about that. silo-specific issues aside, if adding 6 characters to your personal site is “a bitch” there are other issues which need fixing
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Loqi [@CoolBrighton] RT @honorharger: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Then come along to IndieWebCamp at @LighthouseArts, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co… (http://twtr.io/buYhm_vcXj)
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Loqi [@nd_kane] RT @honorharger: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Then come along to IndieWebCamp at @LighthouseArts, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co… (http://twtr.io/buYjc7nCrC)
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neuro` barnabywalters: talking about last night rel="me" discussion?
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barnabywalters neuro`: aral’s tweet
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barnabywalters but yes, that in general
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Loqi [@TBOBrightonHove] RT @honorharger: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Then come along to IndieWebCamp at @LighthouseArts, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co… (http://twtr.io/buYtHCxFXC)
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neuro` barnabywalters: oh yes, haven't seen it.
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barnabywalters Loqi spoke it just above
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barnabywalters http://twtr.io/buXCRu9Y9b
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neuro` I saw it now :)
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barnabywalters is there no service which does the simplest possible "put your desired domain, links to social profles and credit card details in these boxes and it is all set up”
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barnabywalters ?
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neuro` The authentication mode is "a bitch" because it's not the usual "give us your credential and we take care of it for you" thing
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cweiske openid + ax
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cweiske allows you to pass all data to a site
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neuro` But I'm actually quite happy with that rel="me" thing
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neuro` Allows me to change my provider when I want
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cweiske !tell aaronpk http://fotos.cweiske.de/screenshots/2013-08-26%20indieauth%20problem.png
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske neuro`, openid also allows you to change your auth provider whenever you want
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Loqi [@laurakalbag] RT @honorharger: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Then come along to IndieWebCamp at @LighthouseArts, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co… (http://twtr.io/bu_vpC4rqQ)
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Loqi [@laurakalbag] RT @aral: Quick reminder: don’t forget to sign up for @indiewebcamp — I know the sign up process is a bitch
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Loqi come let’s talk UX http://t.co… (http://twtr.io/bu_yVA6ZEf)
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@laurakalbag I need to sign up for @IndieWebCampUK, but I keep giving up because hoops. (twitter.com/_/status/371964931266338816)
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neuro` barnabywalters: do you plan to setup a camera / online something for IWC Brighton? I'm stuck at work all the week-end so I will only be available on IRC / hangout / whatever you use.
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@nd_kane @laurakalbag I need to sign up but aside from numerous hoops, lack of apparent self-usefullness. @IndieWebCampUK (twitter.com/_/status/371965507382951936)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I think also editing the wiki with its obtuse syntax may be contributing to the signup UX problems
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Loqi aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 23 minutes ago: http://fotos.cweiske.de/screenshots/2013-08-26%20indieauth%20problem.png
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neuro` I must +1 aaronpk
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aaronpk cweiske: looks like you added a "/" to your github profile at some point recently?
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aaronpk if github properly redirected github.com/username/ to github.com/username instead of serving your profile from both URLs that wouldn't be a problem
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@neilcford @aral @indiewebcamp Would do but it clashes with #BMMF2013 which I’m already committed to unfortunately. Will monitor the output though. (twitter.com/_/status/371967081782452224)
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cweiske yep. login works now
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cweiske I removed the /
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cweiske thanks
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aaronpk cool. now you're probably seeing this problem: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/21
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cweiske yes
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cweiske no
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cweiske I saw 2 urls
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cweiske then I re-scanned
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cweiske then i only saw one
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Loqi sandeepshetty: tantek left you a message 2 weeks, 4 days ago: - any chance you could license webmention with CC0+OWFa? CC0 is an internationally-aware public domain declaration, and OWFa provides RF patent IP declaration.
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Loqi sandeepshetty: tantek left you a message 2 weeks, 4 days ago: spec.indieauth.com does CC0+OWFa (if you're looking for a github hosted example). Markup/phrasing docs here: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Standards/license#Markup
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Loqi sandeepshetty: tantek left you a message 2 weeks, 2 days ago: if you're still working on an integrated reader in/on your site for yourself, could you add a comment about it here? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Indieweb_perspective
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Loqi sandeepshetty: tantek left you a message 2 weeks ago: I've officially added rel=webmention to the HTML5 rel registry and linked to webmention.org as the specification. Would you consider allowing rel=webmention in the spec? I think webmention deserves a keyword rel value like that.
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: welcome back!
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sandeepshetty good to be back :)
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@julien51 Great Hotel in #Brighton in which I could stay next weekend for #indiewebcamp? #lazytweet (twitter.com/_/status/371971783618224128)
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romeda.org edited /2013/UK (+416) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: RE wiki syntax: very true. we should make something where you click a button and it scrapes your h-card
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@aral RT @laurakalbag: I need to sign up for @IndieWebCampUK, but I keep giving up because hoops. (twitter.com/_/status/371974143262347264)
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barnabywalters neuro`: we’ll have etherpads for each session, will be very active in IRC and I’ll set up a G+ hangout if noone else does :)
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@aral RT @laurakalbag: I need to sign up for @IndieWebCampUK, but I keep giving up because hoops. Biggest challenge in owning your data is UX. (twitter.com/_/status/371974304193601536)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yeah that would make a lot of sense
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neuro` barnabywalters: thank you. I have a huge operatio all over the wek-end but most of it will be about waiting for things to happen so I'll be very active
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barnabywalters aaronpk: how feasible is it? /me has never worked with mediawiki
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aaronpk so the requirements would be to set up indieauth as well as put an h-card on your home page
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@aral RT @jukesie: I gave up [trying to sign up for @indiewebcamp] figured it was a sign that I should go home from Brighton a night earlier #ux (twitter.com/_/status/371974575967711232)
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neuro` Doesn't it make sign up even more difficult?
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barnabywalters neuro`: medial operation? good luck either way
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barnabywalters no, that wouldn’t be the requirement, just an added bonus if you have h-card markup
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barnabywalters anyway, for next year we want to do this all with webmention RSVPs
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aaronpk webmention rsvps is even harder :)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: we have one year to change that
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aaronpk yeah!
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neuro` That will make a huge natural selection
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aaronpk well, being a *creator* is an intentional selection
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neuro` barnabywalters: no, moving our application from one platform to another.
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aaronpk although we are not intending to exclude non-coders
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neuro` aaronpk: I know that, I just fear it makes #indiewebcamp too software centric because only people using the soft that has implemented webmention rsvp will be able to join
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barnabywalters that is the challenge: include non-coders whilst still retaining the creators-only barrier to entry
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barnabywalters as it provably increases our productivity
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neuro` IE: Wordpress centric
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aaronpk neuro`: yeah it's a tough line
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neuro` Last night, we were discussing about that and self dogfooding.
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aaronpk although technically you don't need to write any software to do webmention rsvps. all you need is the ability to create an HTML post and use curl :D
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barnabywalters aaronpk: IIRC we’ve both got easy webmention sending UIs on our todo lists, reducing the barrier to “be able to write or copy/paste HTML and press a button”
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aaronpk my webmentions are automatic now
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barnabywalters sure, mine have always been. I still want to make a “paste a URL in here and we’ll send it’s webmentions for you” thing though
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@blaine @aral @indiewebcamp ... or there's my blog post. ;-) FWIW, took me 3 attempts to make it work, and it's impossible to sign in with Twitter. (twitter.com/_/status/371975964705959936)
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aaronpk ah yeah
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@thecharlesiwas [CANCELLED] Indie Authors Conference, 1st-2nd November 2013 in Tampa http://lanyrd.com/2013/indieauthorevents/ #indies (twitter.com/_/status/371975991406501889)
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barnabywalters ^ no #indieauth in that tweet…?
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barnabywalters oh, actually yeah in the URL
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aaronpk wow it's matching partial words now?!
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aaronpk twitterapi--
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Loqi twitterapi has -1 karma
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barnabywalters lol
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barnabywalters facebook--
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Loqi facebook has -1 karma
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barnabywalters google-plus--
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Loqi dude
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neuro` I need to implement Webmention on Publify. Maybe I can do that during #indiewebcamp UK
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neuro` Loqi--
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aaronpk lol
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barnabywalters neuro`: there are several OS PHP libraries, should make it fairly easy to port to ruby
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barnabywalters if aaronpk hasn’t done that already :)
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@finlessbook RT @gaelehi: Disappearing in Plain Sight by Francis L. Guenette http://gaele.sweaterveststudio.com/?p=5243 @FrancisGuenette #goodread #contemporary #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/371976627087212544)
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aaronpk there is almost a ruby one now!
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neuro` barnabywalters: I have already started to port the webmention-client library, but didn't finish it yet :(
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barnabywalters cool
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aaronpk i haven't had time to review the pull request yet but it's done in theory!
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@aaronpk @blaine Glad to see you RSVP'd to #indiewebcamp! Looking forward to seeing you there! (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/26/3/indiewebcamp) (twitter.com/_/status/371976772851482625)
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barnabywalters clearly we need to improve the indieauth set up experience and documentation
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barnabywalters main pain points seem to be small differences between the various urls involved
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barnabywalters e.g. http(s), trailing slashes
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ouvre-boite.com edited /2013/UK (+568) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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ouvre-boite.com edited /2013/UK (+4) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: can you make the Special:LogIn page link to http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain instead of the indieauth setup page so it’s easier for us to improve the documentation?
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aaronpk i finally fixed all the redirect issues which solved a lot of that, but then there's providers that serve duplicate content
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aaronpk e.g. github.com/username/ and github.com/username serve the same content but they really should redirect username/ to username
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yeah good idea, i'll do that
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julien51 Ok, people, I'll be in Brighton next weekend :) Booked at Ibis and flying Easyjet from LYS.
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barnabywalters julien51: great! looking forward to seeing you :)
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julien51 barnabywalters same same!
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aaronpk julien51: hooray!
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@xtof_fr #indieweb : projet #lebateau http://www.20minutes.fr/magazine/secoacher/optimisersonquotidien/hissez-les-voiles-sur-le-bateau-125541/ /by @egadenne (twitter.com/_/status/371979575359594496)
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neuro` julien51: you lucky guy, enjoy the trip.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: do you have an “edit your app.net profile” link?
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aaronpk https://account.app.net/settings/verification/
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aaronpk direct to the domain verification pageg since they've done a great job with rel-me verification of app.net profiles
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barnabywalters awesome, thanks
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+840) "/* Setup Instructions */ clarified, bulked out and stubbed known problems section" (view diff)
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aaronpk signin link updated
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barnabywalters great. flickr isn’t on the indieauth supported provider list, can I take it off the setup guide?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk something broke with that, can't remember what
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barnabywalters and <link> works, so I can add that?
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barnabywalters it never worked for me
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barnabywalters (flickr, that is)
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aaronpk oh yeah!! I finally launched <link>!
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aaronpk go for it!
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barnabywalters woo hoo
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aaronpk is considering dropping the http/https redirect restriction
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cweiske i'd not allow http->https redirection, but the other way round is ok
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aaronpk why is the other way around ok?
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cweiske more secure is ok, less secure is not ok
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barnabywalters because you can trust a https:// domain to redirect but not http?
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aaronpk if https redirects to http, then you've got a potential problem because the HTML is coming from http instead
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cweiske wait
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cweiske wrong way round
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aaronpk or did you mean the other way
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cweiske http->https is ok
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cweiske https->http is not ok
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aaronpk so the theory about why http->https is not ok is that there's a potential attack vector there where someone could redirect http to something else
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+283) "/* 1. Link to your various social profiles on your home page */ removed flickr, added <link> element example, added dark data link" (view diff)
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aaronpk but I suppose that's no less secure than an http link already is
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aaronpk the primary thing is that if you specify https, it should never allow downgrading to http because you explicitly specified you want to be secure
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aaronpk so in that way I suppose an http->https link isn't introducing any new danger so it should be allowed
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+4) "/* 3. You're done! */ fixed login link" (view diff)
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Jihaisse aaronpk: I wi
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Jihaisse aaronpk: I will try to make a indieauth plugin for wordpress with <link>
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Jihaisse just to configure your links
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aaronpk Jihaisse: awesome! that would add the <link> tag to the head of the template?
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Jihaisse yes
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aaronpk that would be awesome
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Jihaisse I think it's not difficult
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Jihaisse I will ask pfefferle to make some code review ;)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+1) "/* Known Problems */" (view diff)
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pfefferle jihaisse no problem! let me know if you need some help.
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Jihaisse but not now, I take some holidays
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Jihaisse come back in two weeks
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neuro` Jihaisse: AGAIN?!
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Jihaisse thanks pfefferle
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Jihaisse neuro`: not again.
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Jihaisse didn't take holidays this summer
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@IndieWebCampUK …we’re trying to improve the documentation, which is here: http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (twitter.com/_/status/371983632497672192)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: re: signups, I don't think it would be easy or fun to make a thing that automatically adds you to the wiki, probably better is to have a separate subsystem for RSVPing, like indienews
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah, the wiki is not going to be the best place to implement fancy webmention hcard crawling niceness
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aaronpk mediawiki--
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Loqi mediawiki has -2 karma
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aaronpk even if the crawling happened outside mediawiki I still don't really want to make something go make a wiki edit
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aaronpk pretty much I want to avoid the internals of mediawiki if at all possible
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@IndieWebCampUK Great to see some new people signing up/attempting to sign up! If you’re having difficulties, please let me (@barnabywalters) know… (twitter.com/_/status/371983555788021760)
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barnabywalters Loqi, WHY U GET MY TWEETS IN THE WRONG ORDER?
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Loqi yeah!
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aaronpk heh do you really want to know?
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barnabywalters no.
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aaronpk cause I know
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@aral @blaine @indiewebcamp I managed to sign in via Twitter but on the second try and have no idea why it worked then. (twitter.com/_/status/371984850255118336)
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aaronpk I feel bad about the @indiewebcamp and @indiewebcampuk accounts tweeting instead of posting to their own sites
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neuro` aaronpk: they should use Publify ;-)
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aaronpk we need a way to allow a few people to sign in via indieauth and post for it
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neuro` (there's a Publify for this ;-))
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neuro` Just kidding
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah, I’ve been thinking about that for a while. I’d potentially be up for setting up Taproot instances for them
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barnabywalters which could fairly easily support the multiple-author thing
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aaronpk i suppose p3k could support multiple authors fairly easily too... just add a few other domains to my whitelist of who's allowed to access the admin interface
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barnabywalters cool. I’d be fine either way.
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aaronpk checks out the publify demo
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aaronpk whoa it looks like wordpress http://demo.publify.co/
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barnabywalters another option would be to make it so that certain people can post notes from their own accounts, which (if they webmention some URL) get tweeted by @indiewebcamp
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aaronpk ooh that's interesting
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aaronpk that's kind of like indienews
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aaronpk if there was an @indienews twiter account that tweeted out new posts
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aaronpk which isn't a bad idea
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aaronpk boo @indienews and @indie_news are taken
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aaronpk neuro`: the publify demo wants me to migrate the database. is that safe?
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waterpigs.co.uk created /indieauth-setup (+58) "Redirected page to [[How to set up web sign-in on your own domain]]" (view diff)
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barnabywalters okay iwc.com/indieauth-setup now redirects to that nasty URL
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aaronpk heh. i would be ok with the other way around too
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neuro` aaronpk: yes, go
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neuro` aaronpk: I need to upgrade the demo database, I pushed lots of code yesterday
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I wonder if adding a “last scanned 5 mins ago” to the rescan button would help people
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aaronpk barnabywalters: good idea!
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barnabywalters it sounds like aral might have run into a caching problem
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aaronpk yeah probably. last time he tried was when the t.co redirect broke everything
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barnabywalters oh right, by “last time” he meant weeks ago? I didn’t realise
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aaronpk longer than that I think :)
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aaronpk is tackling the caching bug on indieauth
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neuro` aaronpk: I was kidding about Publify, I was in the MP "spam spam spam" mood
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aaronpk neuro`: yeah? it looks really nice!
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neuro` aaronpk: thank you. It works (for me) but is not exempt of bugs
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aaronpk nothing ever is :)
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neuro` But well, it works for me and I can tweet with it
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neuro` and publish posts and static pages
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barnabywalters sounds good to me
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neuro` And display notes like http://t37.net/ home
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neuro` a mix of notes and longer posts
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aaronpk idno seems to be doing rather well too. I wonder what benwerd's thoughts are for multi-authors
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barnabywalters I haven’t had a detailed look at the posting UI but it looked pretty mice
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neuro` If you want to play with it, I can setup one for you within minutes on my server
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barnabywalters *nice
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aaronpk neuro`: the posting interface is very clean! I like it
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neuro` aaronpk: thank you. And it works nice with a mobile phone too
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barnabywalters neuro`: hm, so Publify is another potential candidate for “one click install indieweb solution“ then?
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barnabywalters what do we need to do to get that off the ground
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barnabywalters if it doesn’t already exist, of course
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aaronpk i like the push to heroku instructions! That makes it pretty easy
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neuro` barnabywalters: it's pretty simple to install
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neuro` and works on heroku
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I don't know how to make "last checked 5 minutes ago" look good there
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barnabywalters looks
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aaronpk it's not live yet, here: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5453/9600190592_27826deb19_o.png
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aaronpk any smaller and you can't read the text
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barnabywalters argh email photo upload not working
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neuro` Question: what would be the most useful feature on a Publify like platform: photo albums (we already have image upload), web mentions or lists of links?
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neuro` I plan another insomnia tonight.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9220294/Screen%20shot%202013-08-26%20at%2013.52.27.png
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barnabywalters how about something like that?
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aaronpk neuro`: if you haven't got webmentions working yet that would definitely be the next thing I'd add
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aaronpk barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 12 karma
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aaronpk perfect
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neuro` barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 13 karma
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cweiske didn't someone say that relative times are evil?
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aaronpk who, me?
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aaronpk :P
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barnabywalters cweiske: relative times on post permalink pages, sure
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cweiske http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/08/23/1/you-should-not-be-displaying-relative-dates
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tantek :)
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barnabywalters in this case the the absolute time doesn’t matter, what matters is allowing the user to immediately see whether or not the results they’re seeing reflect the changes they’ve just made
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aaronpk barnabywalters++ again
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Loqi [@seb_ly] RT @honorharger: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Then come along to IndieWebCamp at @LighthouseArts, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co… (http://twtr.io/bumMMLDoJ8)
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cweiske one of the cases aaronpk mentioned was screenshots, and that the relative timestamp broke context
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cweiske this applies here, too :)
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aaronpk is tempted to do a hybrid
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aaronpk relative if <24 hours ago, otherwise show the date
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aaronpk "Aug 21" (no room for the year in this case)
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neuro` Passed 1 week, relative time is a real pain to decode. Even worst are articles posted "more than 1 year ago". *sob*
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aaronpk yeah that's the worst lol
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barnabywalters aaronpk: that’s the kind of thing which causes some *weird* mysterious test failures ;)
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aaronpk what does?
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barnabywalters changing formats based on relative times
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aaronpk write better tests :P
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barnabywalters :)
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neuro` krkr
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@aaronpk Fixed the weird caching bug with #indieauth! Click "re-scan" to clean things up for your account. More info here... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/08/26/1/indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/371998821800103936)
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@Indie_Auth RT @aaronpk: Fixed the weird caching bug with #indieauth! Click "re-scan" to clean things up for your account. More info here... http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/371998867207634944)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: building on your idea of posting to your own site and syndicating to the @indiewebcamp account, it could even do a proper re-tweet if it finds the rel-syndication link!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: mmm, good idea
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aaronpk yeah pretty much if I remove the ranking system from indienews and change the home page to a recent-first stream, I would just have to add the twitter syndication bit and we'd have a pretty good setup
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aaronpk then you could "tweet" as @indiewebcamp by posting a rel-syndication link to something like posts.indiewebcamp.com/post/example.com/notes/xxx
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aaronpk just like posting to indienews
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tantek catches up on logs - busy this morning.
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aaronpk didn't sleep much
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tantek do we need to better document *why* we have a deliberate barrier to sign-up?
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aaronpk yeah
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barnabywalters looks like the discussion with scott was fairly productive
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tantek barnabywalters - really? I must have missed the productive points ;)
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barnabywalters that thread is an excellent overview of “where’re we are, where we’re going”
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aaronpk tantek: definitely need to document why, but also clarify that the wiki syntax bit is not an intended barrier
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tantek (as in, did any FAQs get added)
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tantek aaronpk - yeah, wiki syntax bit is oddness
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tantek then again if someone signs-in and screws up the wiki syntax, one of us will fix it :)
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aaronpk yeah but it's just unnecessary complicatedness for people
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aaronpk we're not trying to make people learn mediawiki table syntax, we want people to have a domain under their control
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barnabywalters aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 208 karma
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tantek true
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tantek barnabywalters, re: "up for setting up Taproot instances for them" - then you're teaching them as apprentices
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tantek setting up XYZ instance is just step one, then they have to maintain it
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barnabywalters tantek: that was RE indiewebcamp twitter accounts
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barnabywalters no way is Taproot ready for random people to use :)
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tantek well, that's even worse! it's yet another community resource to maintain
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tantek we have a hard enough time maintaining the wiki and such
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barnabywalters tantek: hence the idea of posting to our own sites and having those accounts retweet/post announcements
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tantek aaronpk - I noticed even ScottJenson got upset about having the login/edit link at the bottom of the page
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barnabywalters is assuming you have actually read the whole thread ;)
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tantek not enough selfdogfooding (requests)
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tantek ScottJenson kept making statements about what "should" be done, and no one challenged him to try doing so on his own site.
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tantek or did I miss something?
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aaronpk ah yea
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tantek cweiske - openid delegation is MUCH harder for people to configure than web-sign-in.
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cweiske we talked about providing additional data to the consuming website
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tantek and ax (attribute exchange) was yet another bad divergence from vCard
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cweiske that's possible with openid
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tantek as it is with hCard
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tantek which is based on vCard
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tantek and thus better than ax
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cweiske tantek, I would not want to provide my credit card details in my hcard
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tantek strawman - no one asked you to
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cweiske but i'd be fine if an online shop asked for it during login
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aaronpk also, an h-card that only returns CC data if requested with an indieauth token would work :)
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tantek cweiske - when you start building an online shop on your own site that needs CC info, let us know ;)
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cweiske aaronpk, that's not specified anywhere
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tantek aaronpk is referring to: http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases#show_personal_info
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cweiske how do I submit that token?
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aaronpk cweiske: http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging and http://spec.indieauth.com/
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aaronpk maybe in 2015 we should charge admission for indiewebcamp and accept payments via this method :D
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aaronpk is joking of course
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tantek hah
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cweiske "dear marketeers, you may have my contact data if you pay 100€"
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tantek what blog post is Blaine referring to? https://twitter.com/blaine/status/371975964705959936
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@blaine @aral @indiewebcamp ... or there's my blog post. ;-) FWIW, took me 3 attempts to make it work, and it's impossible to sign in with Twitter.
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aaronpk http://blog.romeda.org/2013/06/thoughts-on-signin.html
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tantek "or there's my blog post. ;-) "
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aaronpk "Fixing Sign-in"
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aaronpk I assume that's what he meant
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aaronpk not really sure how to respond to this though https://twitter.com/blaine/status/371977536990769152
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@blaine @aaronpk ... and the other is that I'm not going to link to my personal site from Twitter right now. :-/
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barnabywalters yeah I thought that was a bit strange
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tantek aaronpk - if blaine wants to support a plurality of sign-in methods, that's up to him
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tantek funny thing is that he says poetica supports openid and indieauth, yet their UI fails to accept "tantek.com"
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tantek (it says email address required = I close that tab)
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tantek so whatever
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aaronpk what do you mean? he's complaining that twitter signin doesn't work, and says he won't link his twitter account to his own site
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tantek I meant about his blog post
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aaronpk oh, sure
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tantek to respond to that "not going to link" tweet ...
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@aaronpk @blaine This issue should be fixed now after clicking "re-scan". I just pushed up a patch tonight. #indieauth (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/26/7/indieauth) (twitter.com/_/status/372006086200422400)
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tantek the answer is - then use a different auth provider other than Twitter
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tantek that you *are* going to link back to your personal site with
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tantek so let's fix Flickr auth darnit
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tantek we all know people that work there
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barnabywalters when I try to log in to poetica.com as my domain… nothing happens. no feedback, no console error output, nothing
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tantek and the changes to fix it on their side shouldn't be hard
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aaronpk yeah I can't remember what broke about flickr auth
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aaronpk I know their profile URLs are really weird though
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aaronpk ideally I'd like to link to http://flickr.com/aaronpk from my site, but that redirects to my photo stream, not my profile that has my URL in it
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tantek and re: that blog post and Tim Bray's followup. just went to http://findidp.com/ and nothing there. so much for good intentions (and that was two months ago).
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aaronpk so I would have to link to http://www.flickr.com/people/aaronpk/ instead. so minor inconvenence, not a big deal
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tantek aaronpk - still that's an inconvenience for the user (you), so that's not good
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tantek especially since you make it a visible link etc.
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aaronpk barnabywalters: this is what I see on poetica http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/9600577944/
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tantek last time I remember discussing this we had Flickr put in a rel=me on your photos page to your profile page, which then had your URL
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tantek aaronpk - exactly that's the same problem I get
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tantek so I won't use it
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aaronpk hmm I don't see a rel-me link on my photo page
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tantek so that's probably what broke in some iteration
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aaronpk indieauth isn't following that level of redirect yet anyway
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tantek right - that's the challenge
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barnabywalters ah, I was lookin on old safari which by default doesn’t give any feedback that a type=email input field is invalid
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aaronpk oh that's a browser thing?
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barnabywalters yeah
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aaronpk cool
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@aaronpk @blaine Then luckily there are a number of other providers you can use that you wouldn't mind pointing... #indieauth http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/26/8/indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/372007936559570944)
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aaronpk heh all my alarms are going off. here I was thinking I'd have trouble getting up this morning, but really I woke up at 4am instead :/
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tantek woke up for a 7am telcon that got canceled.
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tantek aaronpk - what do you think of special-casing Flickr to check to follow one rel-me on their own domain when looking for a rel-me back to the user's personal domain?
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aaronpk flickr.com/aaronpk doesn't have any rel-me links at all. I'd have to special-case it to swap out "flickr.com/photos/aaronpk" for "flickr.com/people/aaronpk"
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tantek aaronpk - my point is that we can likely get Flickr to add rel=me to lickr.com/aaronpk
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aaronpk ah
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tantek darnit
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aaronpk I think I could add that as a one-off
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tantek add a rel-me from flickr.com/aaronpk (which redirects to http://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk ) to www.flickr.com/people/aaronpk
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aaronpk I'm hesitant to search all rel-me links because it adds an exponential amount of complexity. but limiting it to flickr URLs would keep it reasonable.
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tantek oh, this http://www.flickr.com/people/aaronpk/ already has a rel=me!
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tantek to your domain
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tantek so does that work?
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tantek (today with indieauth, if you personal site happens to link to your Flickr people page) http://www.flickr.com/people/aaronpk/
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aaronpk let me check... i thought something wasn't working with it
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tantek right - let's see if we can get the pieces working on the indieauth side
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tantek and then it will be easier to get Flickr to fix their end
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tantek hah - blaine and julien51 didn't sort themselves ;)
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aaronpk another mediawiki idiosyncracy i'd rather avoid
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (-3) "/* Creators */ sort blaine and julien51" (view diff)
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barnabywalters I don’t really blame them. MW table syntax is nasty enough to append, let alone navigate and insert
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tantek barnabywalters - I too wouldn't blame them, except they *are* programmers, and programmers are expected to pick up any odd random syntax quite quickly.
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aaronpk oh man "You just authenticated as 'http://www.flickr.com/people/Aaron Parecki' but your website linked to 'http://www.flickr.com/people/aaronpk/'"
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tantek uhhh
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aaronpk oh yeah, some people have IDs and some have usernames
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aaronpk I think i'd have to add some logic to check if there is a custom username set and if not use the flickr ID
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aaronpk the omniauth gem doesn't seem to be doing that very well
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tantek.com edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+1) "/* 1. Link to your various social profiles on your home page */ fix link example to use https with twitter and actual username" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+3) "/* 2. On each service, ensure there is a link back to your home page */ call-out app.net verify link with a bullet" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (-146) "move why up, update see also, move openid related links to openid page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /web-sign-in (+22) "resort see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /web-sign-in (+138) "short defn, supersedes openid" (view diff)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: last scan time is live!
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aaronpk that's a nice addition
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aaronpk thanks for the suggestion
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aaronpk ok now I have to get back to work
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aaronpk (literally)
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barnabywalters yay! thanks for implementing that so quickly
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Loqi woot
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tantek.com edited /web-sign-in (+5) "personal web address" (view diff)
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cweiske should indieauth automatically redirect to the first provider if there is only one?
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aaronpk that would prevent you from ever being able to click re-scan to add new profiles
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cweiske if login with that provider fails, indieauth should show the rescan option
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cweiske but if not, all is fine
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aaronpk so much complexity
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cweiske for comfort
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aaronpk you can do that on your implementation of indieauth :)
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tantek but it sacrifices the user being informed
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tantek and user choice leading to the auth screen
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tantek which gives the user more confidence, yes, I asked for this
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cweiske checkbox with "always login with that provider"?
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tantek so no - cweiske what you suggest actually causes *discomfort*
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aaronpk yeah actually it would be quite jarring to jump straight to a twitter auth screen after entering your domain
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tantek others have tried it and it freaks people out
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cweiske tantek, I want to login. I don't want to click the only button the interface offers me anyway again and again
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tantek keeping the user informed and in the loop is quite key
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aaronpk checkbox for "always log in" is a better solution
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tantek agreed
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tantek.com edited /Why_web_sign-in (+1) "/* Why not consume OpenID */ punc" (view diff)
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aaronpk and then if it failed in the future it would just un-check the box internally and re-prompt the user
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aaronpk oh, problem with that though is I may want to log in with different providers in differenc circumstances
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cweiske why?
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cweiske you only confirm that you own your domain
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cweiske nothign more
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aaronpk on my personal laptop I would prefer to use github because i'm always logged in to github so it's fast. but on a shared computer I would want to use TOTP or SMS so I don't have to sign in to any providers
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barnabywalters has done this and found it useful
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cweiske so it needs to be in a cookie
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cweiske which is browser-specific
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cweiske and thus reduces the need for server-side storage
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aaronpk doing it in a cookie would mean I'd have to let the initial page render, then basically "click" the specified button with javascript
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aaronpk then add logic for deleting the cookie on an auth failure
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aaronpk i think you'd end up seeing a brief flash of the chooser screen
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tantek indeed
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aaronpk could end up working out well though
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cweiske bb
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aaronpk $("[data-profile='"+cookieval+"'] a")[0].click() <-- would work!
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aaronpk ok really have to go though! bye!
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tantek looks for yesterday's discussion on main page design
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-08-25#t1377461650
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sandeepshetty Why is setting up Openid on your own domain (and not delegating) hard? I've seen both http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_OpenID_on_your_own_domain and http://indiewebcamp.com/Why_web_sign-in#Why_not_OpenID but it doesn't say why it's hard..
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sandeepshetty I don't enough about openid so just curious
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sandeepshetty s/enough/know enough
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: I don't know enough about openid so just curious
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: count the elements :) you have to add 5 lengthy, fairly complex elements to the head of your site
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barnabywalters as well as probably signing up for a myOpenId account or whatever
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aaronpk that's if you delegate! if you are your own provider it's even more difficult
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barnabywalters as opposed to adding 6 characters to a link(s) you probably already have to twitter, gh, etc profiles, email
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sandeepshetty and relying on silos?
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aaronpk good luck trying to understand all the crypto needed to do it. so instead you find a library like phpmyopenid, and cross your fingers that it does what it's supposed to do
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: there are now several ways to auth without silos, including mozilla persona
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sandeepshetty why not come up with something simpler without having to rely on silos?
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: feel free :)
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aaronpk that's basically persona
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aaronpk also, check out spec.indieauth.com, I added a bunch of stuff there
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aaronpk technically now you don't need to rely on silos at all with the stuff documented there
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aaronpk you can be your own indieauth provider and use whatever auth to your own site that you want. passwords even
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barnabywalters between persona and SMS auth, with silos for speed/fallback, I think indieauth at the moment is an acceptable compromise between complexity and silo-reliance
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: what did you have in mind? RE simpler+silo free solution
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barnabywalters I’d be interested to hear any ideas
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aaronpk the updated indieauth spec actually covers that use case now
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sandeepshetty haven't thought enough about it and don't enough about openid but something simple like publish a link rel for a an auth url that you get redirected to with a token and return on login with the token
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aaronpk yeah that's basically indieauth :D
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sandeepshetty it's not because it relies on an additional step (silo, sms, etc)
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aaronpk did you read the new spec?
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sandeepshetty nope.. but what I'm thinking should be like 4-5 lines of code (Given we all have some means to auth on our site for publishing as admin)
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aaronpk yeah, that totally falls under the scope of the spec now
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sandeepshetty goes to read the indieauth spec
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aaronpk a slightly more narrative version is http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging
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sandeepshetty yeah but need the extra complexity ?
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sandeepshetty why not just keep it simple?
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aaronpk the spec.indieauth.com doc is rather verbose
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aaronpk because not everyone wants to build an auth server
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sandeepshetty 4-5 lines of code?
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aaronpk and thinking about how to store passwords and keep it safe
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sandeepshetty (again I don't enough about issue)
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sandeepshetty but we alerady do that to login as admins into our sites to publish?
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sandeepshetty so we don't need to think about that..
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: I use indieauth to log in to my site
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aaronpk me too
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sandeepshetty the 4-5 lines is just to receive the redirect and send the user back on sucessful login
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barnabywalters because it saved me tonnes of trouble
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sandeepshetty sure thats a personal choice..
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sandeepshetty but for interop why not keep it simpler?
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aaronpk really what I should do is describe the minimum viable indieauth implementation and you'd see how simple it actually is
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sandeepshetty but then why not just stop there?
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aaronpk because that would require a password database on your own site
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sandeepshetty why do we need to worry about silos not working etc. adn hacks for them.. etc (like I'm seeing the logs today)?
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sandeepshetty again everyone already have a way to auth to their site (except maybe static sites)
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aaronpk that's not a guaranteed assumption
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sandeepshetty s/already/already will
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: again everyone already will have a way to auth to their site (except maybe static sites)
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sandeepshetty why not?
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aaronpk barnaby is a good example
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sandeepshetty it seems fundamental
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sandeepshetty he does.. he uses indieauth..
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aaronpk I didn't even have a login page for a long time
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aaronpk cause I published content via git pushes
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aaronpk so no, I don't think having a login form is a valid assumption to base things off of
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sandeepshetty (right I acknowledged static sites, that is surely something to think about further)
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aaronpk mine wasn't even a static site
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sandeepshetty sorry by static I mean something you don't directly interact with..
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aaronpk ok sure
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: let’s back up a minute. what problem are you trying to solve here?
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sandeepshetty I want to use the same auth I use on my site to login anywhere
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barnabywalters as far as I can tell you’re describing a way of using the login form on your own site to log in everywhere
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sandeepshetty yes..
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barnabywalters if I understand the distributed indieauth spec, this is easy to accomplish
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aaronpk ok yea, you can definitely do that with the indieauth spec (not indieauth.com, that would be out of the picture)
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sandeepshetty external sites redirect to my auth url (based on link tag/header I puoblish)
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barnabywalters so I’m pretty sure this covers that: http://indiewebcamp.com/distributed-indieauth
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aaronpk oh thanks for that link, forgot about that one
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sandeepshetty reading spec.indieauth
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sandeepshetty will get back after I finish reading that..
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aaronpk check out the distributed-indieauth page, it's a shorter version
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barnabywalters but I haven’t looked very hard or tried implementing it so I may be mistaken
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aaronpk covers fewer use cases but is what you're describing
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sandeepshetty that (dist-indieauth page) is very close to what I had in mind..
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aaronpk yeah pretty much exactly what you were describing
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sandeepshetty but I think you can remove step 4 and 5 if you send a short-lived token in the redirect
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aaronpk spec.indieauth.com is a rounded out version of that along with describing the actual "log in" step which is glossed over between steps 2-3 in the other page
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barnabywalters aaronpk: what would it take to implement distributed indieauth discovery on the wiki?
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aaronpk how do you know the token is valid, or which domain it refers to?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: that unfortunately would involve hacking up https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth-MediaWiki
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sandeepshetty I just send it back to the one I received it from
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barnabywalters oh :(
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: you could skip the discovery step in #4 if you had some session state on the server
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sandeepshetty the token only matters to the sender..
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aaronpk but you'd still need to verify it against the indieauth server as #5 says
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sandeepshetty whats the attack vector if the sender sends a short lived token (< 60 secs) and gets back a hash based on the token after auth that it uses to verify the payload?
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aaronpk what do you mean hash?
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sandeepshetty when my site redirects back to the sender it sens a hash(domain+toekn) + domain
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sandeepshetty s/sens/sends
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: when my site redirects back to the sender it sends a hash(domain+toekn) + domain
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aaronpk what's the reason for the hash?
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sandeepshetty you could skip the hash actually.. the receiver just needs to associate the incoming redirect with the outgoing one
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aaronpk right :) and now you've described the distributed-indieauth page!
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sandeepshetty yep but the sender sends the token..
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sandeepshetty so it doesn't need to verify. unless I'm missing some other use of the verification step
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aaronpk put it into more concrete terms, let's use the indiewebcamp wiki as the example of the thing you're signing in to
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aaronpk 1) you type "sandeep.io" into the sign-in form on the wiki. 2) the wiki finds the rel=indieauth link on sandeep.io and redirects you to "http://sandeep.io/auth?me=sandeep.io&redirectURI=indiewebcamp.com/signin"
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aaronpk 3) you log in on your site however you want (password, cookie, persona, TOTP, whatever) and your site redirects your browser to indiewebcamp.com/signin?me=sandeep.io&token=xxxxx
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aaronpk so far so good?
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sandeepshetty yep
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sandeepshetty (I mean I get this bit)
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aaronpk ok now the wiki is getting a request with a token and a "me" parameter, and it has no reason to trust that yet
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aaronpk so it has to go verify that token is valid and find out the domain behind it
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aaronpk so it makes a request to sandeep.io/auth?token=xxxxx which returns the response {"me":"sandeep.io"}
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aaronpk it knows to use sandeep.io/auth one of two ways. it could a) do the discovery step again or b) use the auth server it had previously stored in a session for example. (a) is more stateless
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sandeepshetty the problem you are trying to solve is how to stop the user from just visitin the redirect url manually
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aaronpk right
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sandeepshetty ok makes sense.. and yes a cookie or session store skips step 4
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sandeepshetty ok I'm implementing this...
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sandeepshetty (in converspace)
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aaronpk the nice thing is that either using a session or not is ok. both work, and different implementations will have preferences for each.
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aaronpk large-scale systems tend to prefer to have things be as stateless as possible
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sandeepshetty how did this solve the problem of sites that don't have built in auth (Static sites, git pushes)
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aaronpk also because the token is opaque to the wiki, you can put whatever you want in the token as long as your site can verify it. again, large-scale systems will prefer to use signed tokens rather than a token database
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aaronpk it helps those sites because the auth server does not have to be the same domain as the user signing in
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aaronpk so I can use indieauth.com as my auth provider for aaronparecki.com
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sandeepshetty ah ok and indieauth worries about oauth based silo auth
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aaronpk indieauth.com
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sandeepshetty (yep that ^)
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aaronpk provides silo auth as an option. but it also provides sms, totp and persona options
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sandeepshetty right.
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sandeepshetty sold. any chance you'll add support to https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth-MediaWiki/blob/master/IndieAuth.php ?
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sandeepshetty would love to login from my own site to the wiki
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aaronpk cool. Yea I definitely want to make the wiki support it.
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tantek hey sandeepshetty - didn't get a chance to say welcome back :)
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sandeepshetty hey tantek. Will address the msgs you left in a bit...
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tantek thank you!
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sandeepshetty and it's good to be back :)
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aaronparecki.com edited /distributed-indieauth (-3) "s/token/code to avoid confusion with access token and match OAuth "authorization code" terminology" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /distributed-indieauth (+127) "added IRC log walkthrough link" (view diff)
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aaronpk thx barnabywalters!
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www.sandeep.io edited /webmention (+134) "/* Webmention-related libraries and tools */ added phpish/webmention lib" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /webmention (+100) "/* Webmention-related libraries and tools */ added phpish/link_header" (view diff)
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www.sandeep.io edited /webmention (+36) "/* Webmention-related libraries and tools */" (view diff)
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aaronpk interesting, realized we don't need to hard-code paths or have two separate paths for the indieauth server
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aaronpk so the rel=indieauth value can be a full URL and the client will just append query string variables
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aaronpk 1) sandeep.io/indieauth?me=sandeep.io&redirect_uri=xxxxx and 2) sandeep.io/indieauth?code=xxxxxxxx
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sandeepshetty oh that's what I assumed.. sorry didn't see the verify...
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aaronpk yeah my examples had /auth and /verify before
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sandeepshetty which is why I said it could be skipped with cookie/session
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sandeepshetty (I'm guessing you means remember the base url and append verify to path)
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aaronparecki.com edited /distributed-indieauth (-9) "use verbatim rel=indieauth value" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty *meant
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aaronpk yeah exactly
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aaronpk but this is better
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sandeepshetty I don't like building urls..
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aaronpk less stuff in the spec
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sandeepshetty yep
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sandeepshetty Re LINK method, James Snell's solution is very elegant (one less protocol in the stack by making webmention redundant) except for delegation.... been thinking about a way around that...
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aaronpk yeah i'm totally meh on LINK. GET/POST are the only http verbs that exist to me :)
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cweiske_ on could still 301/302/307 LINK requests, but that means htaccess or server config, which is not everywhere
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sandeepshetty I used to be a regular on rest-discuss so you know I like the semantics and other properties (safe, idempotent) of having different methods that they give :)
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cweiske_ no, 307 would be the right one
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cweiske_ 301 and 302 convert to GET
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Loqi !calc 301 and 302 convert to GET
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aaronpk heh i'm totally going to stay out of this discussion. i'm firmly anti-rest at this point.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I would be interested in reading a blog post or some such thing detailing why
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aaronpk i've been meaning to write that up
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aaronparecki.com edited /distributed-indieauth (+665) (view diff)
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sandeepshetty interesting thinking about all this got me looking into bi-directional links (xanadu, etc) and how webmention is just a hack to make the webs unidirectional links bidirectional
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aaronparecki.com edited /distributed-indieauth (+47) (view diff)
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sandeepshetty would love to read about your anti-rest take.
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tantek aaronpk are you anti-rest or merely an advocate of a subset of REST?
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barnabywalters I’m assuming aaronpk is not pro-SOAP ;)
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sandeepshetty I've seen some awesome advantages.. with uniform urls, methods and status codes.. for example I've implemented revisioning as an orthogonal convern by just intercepting put request and checking for status codes
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sandeepshetty s/convern/concern
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: I've seen some awesome advantages.. with uniform urls, methods and status codes.. for example I've implemented revisioning as an orthogonal concern by just intercepting put request and checking for status codes
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tantek did you see brett slatkin's rant about HTTP2.0 being too big?
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barnabywalters I like the difference between PUT and POST
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neuro` Hi tantek
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tantek barnabywalters really?
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barnabywalters note use of “like”, not “actively use” ;)
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barnabywalters that PUT knows the url of content beforehand whereas the server decides on a POST
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tantek this: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2013/08/lets-remove-verbs-from-http-20.html
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tantek really likes the abbr yagni
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tantek also re: updating REST: http://www.onebigfluke.com/2013/08/the-threat-model-of-internet-has-changed.html
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barnabywalters I like the title of that blog post — it sounds like he wants to remove all the verbs :)
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Loqi REMOVE ALL THE VERBS http://loqi.me/7r0
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tantek barnabywalters - kind of like what we did with/to ActivityStreams
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barnabywalters SPACEJUMP
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/activitystreams#Verbs_vs_just_posts
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barnabywalters indeed
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tantek aaronpk any chance of adding a checkbox to http://pin13.net/ 's microformats parser feature to "[x] Convert Classic Microformats" ?
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tantek likes barnabywalters's checkboxes here: http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
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tantek except wants them to the left of the label as it typical in UI design ;)
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sandeepshetty tantek (by pointing to the as verbs vs just post) are you implying we need just one verb in http?
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tantek like "[x] Convert Twitter classnames to Microformats "
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tantek sandeepshetty I'm saying (repeating?) that we likely don't need (or want) verbs in ActivityStreams
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tantek also it's always seemed like a layer violation to me
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tantek verbs belong in a protocol, objects in a format
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tantek how much does HTTP need more than verbs for CRUD?
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tantek and how much of CRUD is verbs vs. state on the nouns?
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neuro` Follow up to our conversation this afternoon: the next feature will most probably be indieauth support
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tantek sweet!
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neuro` Unless my comaintainers make me a surprise, which may happen
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tantek !tell gjones would be great if http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url= could pretty-print the JSON output similar to http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fpeople%2Fglennjonesnet
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek notes that http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fpeople%2Fglennjonesnet finds the hCard on Flickr profiles.
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tantek and returns it as parsed uf2 h-card :)
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barnabywalters tantek: if you’re on a desktop browser, I can recommend getting a browser extension which pretty-prints, unescapes allows collapsing of JSON
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barnabywalters if anyone knows a squarespace user who wants to be able to use indieauth, this exists now: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/squarespace-web-sign-in/
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barnabywalters related: squarespace’s sign up process is lovely, it’s actual editing process clunky, slow and buggy
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barnabywalters is doing research into existing create-a-personal-site-with-one-click type services
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neuro` barnabywalters: like wordpress.com?
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barnabywalters neuro`: yep
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barnabywalters I found wordpress.com quite confusing, with multiple completely different ways of doing the same thing, e.g. posting a new blog post
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neuro` I know some French ISP do it / used to do it, I'll dig this for you
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barnabywalters thanks
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tantek is pinging a Flickr contact about repairing their rel=me support.
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barnabywalters I’m going to try eschnou’s storytlr+comodit 1-click installer next, provided I don’t have to pay :)
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tantek aaronpk - I hope you have some moments real soon now to add that special case Flickr rel=me / auth code...
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eschnou barnabywalters, there is also a oneclick for wordpress etc... it is all free up to managing 5 hosts, enjoy and please ping if issues!
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tantek.com moved /one-click-install to /2011/one-click-install "This page is about the 2011 session. make room for a generic one-click-install page since that seems to be a hot topic recently."
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barnabywalters eschnou: just giving it a go — at the “installing” shiny animated arrows stage
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barnabywalters I’m comforted to know that no monkeys are involved
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sandeepshetty one click install is actually a special case of being able to easily move between hosts?
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barnabywalters eschnou: what’s the difference between a host and the demo 100 mins thing?
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barnabywalters I went for the demo because it sounded like you had to pay for the other one
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: interesting, I would have said the other way round
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eschnou barnabywalters, the other one requires you to have configured something like your amazon ec2 account
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barnabywalters one is a UX+commerce issue, the other is a data portability issue
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tantek.com edited /one-click-install (+231) "stub a generic page for this effort/idea" (view diff)
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barnabywalters eschnou: ah, okay
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sandeepshetty I'm thinking from the perpective of solving our own problems first
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barnabywalters from that perspective then it’s certainly a portability issue
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tantek sandeepshetty - or moving between hosts is part of one-click-install - an optional import step
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eschnou sandeepshetty, yes, we enable to move easily by makign it easy to re-deploy elsewhere, there is a screencast on the site showing a move from ec2 to rackspace.
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tantek they make sense to document separately
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sandeepshetty one-click install is not a problem i have... being able to move easily is.
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sandeepshetty solving the later sorta also solves the former
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eschnou sandeepshetty, I can move in one click :-) Recently did the test moving from a VM to a docker instance.
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sandeepshetty just focusing on /principles :) irrespective of what outsiders (mostly ux ppl) say
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tantek sandeepshetty - I disagree - one doesn't necessarily solve the other
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tantek they're related and overlapping, but not supersetting either way
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eschnou sandeepshetty, I mean, moving the same stack (storytlr) from one host to another, not moving from one software to another, which of course ask the question of data portability
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tantek I've written up some related thoughts on moving / portability of content services here: http://indiewebcamp.com/deployment
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tantek aaronpk - heads-up: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Faaronpk (note the new rel=me to relative path /people/aaronpk )
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tantek and then http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fpeople%2Faaronpk
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barnabywalters eschnou: overall I’m impressed — install took a little while but worked nicely, account signup was a wall but not too awkward, Storytlr itself is great — very easy to change themes, widgets etc
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barnabywalters it’s clearly a great way to demo storytlr, but doesn’t handle the most important part — getting a domain name/redirecting an existing one
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tantek has a rel=me to http://aaronparecki.com
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eschnou barnabywalters, thanks, we are working on improving speed by switching the demo platform from AWS to docker.io instances.
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barnabywalters is that within the scope of what comodit does?
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eschnou barnabywalters, not sure I understand your question. You could deploy on your own Amazon EC2 account (or elsewhere) with comodit. Then up to you to setup dns of course.
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tantek aaronpk - FLICKR UPDATE IS LIVE
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barnabywalters eschnou: I mean incorporating the domain-getting process into the install process
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eschnou barnabywalters, well, comodit is a generic infrastructure automation platform, so someone could use it to orchestrate something that also takes care of the domain etc.
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barnabywalters okay, cool
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bret Sweet, Just realized I get native IPv6 at my apartment
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bret also, sandeepshetty is here :) Nice to see you again
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Loqi [@LighthouseArts] In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Come along to IndieWebCamp happening here, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK #BDF2013 (http://twtr.io/bvKCTZu5iU)
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barnabywalters anyone else see the huffpost video tweeted earlier?
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tantek.com edited /silo (+14) "/* Popular Silos */ App.net - in that some folks here do POSSE to it" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - I got to about minute 20 last Friday. maybe I'll finish watching it now.
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barnabywalters about indiewebbish stuff
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tantek goes to get a snack
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: link?
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tantek sandeepshetty - link? we have a whole page now
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/videos_about_the_indieweb
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tantek :D
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barnabywalters http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/segment/indie-web-cloud-computing-data-security-internet-freedom/521509f102a7600dad0002aa?ncid=twitter
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sandeepshetty :)
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Loqi [@aral] RT @LighthouseArts: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Come along to IndieWebCamp happening here, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co/YgiVk… (http://twtr.io/bvLXA18c2w)
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tantek ah retweet-fail - the truncated t.co YgiVk goes to a 404
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tantek anyone else here put in any effort at making sure their tweets are retweet-length-safe?
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barnabywalters not me
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tantek my POSSE UI has a counter which turns different colors depending on length
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Loqi [@Brighton_RT] RT @LighthouseArts: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Come along to IndieWebCamp happening here, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co/YgiVk… (http://twtr.io/bvLef4fSaj)
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barnabywalters nice — video/gif?
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tantek retweet-length-safe = green
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tantek precisely retweet-length-safe (maximum) = green with a solid green border
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tommorris needs one of them. ;)
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tantek less than retweet-length-safe, but still tweet-length-safe = yellow
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tantek precisely tweet-length-safe (maximum) = yellow with a solid yellow border
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tantek longer than tweet-length = red
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tantek barnabywalters - the code I use for this is in function note_length_check() in cassis.js :)
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tantek https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.js#L1265
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tantek oh actually you may want the tweet-specific one
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barnabywalters is not a web browser ;)
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tantek https://github.com/tantek/cassis/blob/master/cassis.js#L1282
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tantek function tw_length_check()
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tantek which also converts URLs in a note to their minimum length tco equivalents to get a more accurate count of effective tweet length
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barnabywalters yep, my truncenating code does a similar thing, but seems to have broken recently
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barnabywalters not to the point that it’s problematic enough for me to want to try to fix it
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tantek anyway - thought I would share that in case anyone else found it useful in their UI/code
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tantek ZOMS
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tantek minute 21:06 of that video - mentions how all but the youngest member of the Supreme Court does not have email.
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Loqi [@kelvinnewman] RT @LighthouseArts: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Come along to IndieWebCamp happening here, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co/YgiVk… (http://twtr.io/bvMcVxVtvD)
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tommorris tantek: probably for the best.
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tommorris e-fail and all that.
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barnabywalters tantek: lol, we must be watching in sync
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barnabywalters it’ll take 50 years to solve these problems? damn
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tantek would really love to see a transcript of this video.
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tantek http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/aug/21/elena-kagan-supreme-court-email-games
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tantek She added that while clerks email each other, "the court hasn't really 'gotten to' email."
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barnabywalters ^ wut
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tommorris thinks it is probably a blessing that Justice Scalia has yet to discover the ability to forward emails around only to have the other justices send him Scopes.com and Wikipedia links debunking said emails.
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tommorris Snopes rather
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tantek lol
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hadleybeeman sighs. The courts are progressing — slowly. Happy to take suggestions on how to encourage them along.
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tommorris oh, hadleybeeman, I have a question for you. I'll ask it elsewhere.
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hadleybeeman :) k
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barnabywalters Augustin advocating monoculture at 30:00
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tantek hadleybeeman - get them to skip email go straight to having their own websites :)
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tantek barnabywalters - really? I didn't get that.
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hadleybeeman tantek: to put what on them?
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tantek or perhaps I interpreted "application" differently
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barnabywalters tantek: probably, I heard him say “one application which everyone uses” and the monoculture bell went off
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barnabywalters talking of indieweb and legal stuff: briansuda and I are working on making some icelandic laws more accessible, starting by publishing them online
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barnabywalters I realised that indieweb commenting has a lot of useful features for discussing laws
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tantek hadleybeeman - easy, start with what already exists and make them separate sites that they own and control (empower them) - what exists = hover over their names here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/members.aspx
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barnabywalters e.g. reply contexts preserving past versions of the text
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barnabywalters as well as the obvious benefits of hyperlinking
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tantek barnabywalters - I think I interpreted that "one application" fairly liberally, like "indieweb commenting" being one "application"
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barnabywalters tantek: I think that’s a fair interpretation
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tantek barnabywalters - in the more generic sense here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/application
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tantek rather than one specific native/web "app"
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hadleybeeman Sorry, tantek: what content did you have in mind for these sites? "...that they own and control (empower them)" implies you want them to do something with them, yes?
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tantek hadleybeeman - "what exists = hover over their names here: http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/members.aspx"
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tommorris I'd love to have Supreme Court justices with blogs
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tantek even just personal sites with h-cards would be a good start
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tantek sometimes wonders if Twitter has trained people to stop reading after the first 140 characters of a paragraph.
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neuro` tantek: I think the answer is obvious.
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tommorris the Scalia blog would be fairly unpleasant to read. it'd alternate from entries complaining about women being able to vote and gay people not being arrested, to idolising the Founding Fathers in a creepy way.
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hadleybeeman Blogs... Can you imagine them live-blogging a case? "Defense attorney speaking now. He left his fly open. Hard to concentrate on his argument."
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neuro` Gentlemen, I wish you a good night.
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Loqi night
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tantek so as long as we're talking lofty goals like "one-click-install" and instead of referring to dated stereotypes of elder women family members, how about:
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tantek an indieweb solution that even a US supreme court justice could setup and use.
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tommorris tantek: or indeed an MP
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hadleybeeman I'll champion it to them, tantek. We just need to come up with a good argument for why it would be in their favour.
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neuro` Funny, but maybe too US centric. Not every people in the world is aware of the US supreme court
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hadleybeeman neuro`, what country are you in?
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tommorris my argument for the use of MPs as generic stand-in for technically-incompetent-person. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23437473
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neuro` hadleybeeman: I'm French.
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tantek hadleybeeman, easy. just as owning a house helps you better understand property rights (and why they matter), owning your own site and data helps you better understand virtual property rights (privacy) and why they matter.
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tommorris I think a compelling place to try and sell indieweb is to journalists
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tantek maybe they'll even make the 4th amendment connection
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neuro` Replace MP / justice with "your local representative" and I'll be fully with you.
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tantek yes. your political representative(s).
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neuro` But maybe translated pages can help with localization.
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tantek except many of them *do* already have their own sites.
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tommorris lots of journalists are using Twitter. but Twitter-on-your-own-site means they have more control.
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hadleybeeman Ah, okay, neuro`. Another European. :)
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neuro` (the joys of l10n and i18n)
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tantek tommorris - re: journalists on Twitter, did you see Dan Gillmor's anger over "Related Headlines" ?
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neuro` hadleybeeman: we're actually a bunch of European and even French people around.
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hadleybeeman tantek, we can actually do something with that. I'll add to the strategy.
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tantek tommorris, neuro` - I prefer literally saying "US Supreme Court Justice" because we have that as a citation: http://www.theguardian.com/law/2013/aug/21/elena-kagan-supreme-court-email-games
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tantek as people that engage in some virtual behavior (video games), but not email
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hadleybeeman neuro`: fantastic! Let me know if you ever come over to London. :)
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tommorris tantek: I saw a bit of discussion of Related Headlines. I'm reaching the point where I know that Twitter and other sites are doing bad shit and I'm ceasing to care.
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tantek hadleybeeman - when you say "add to strategy" I'm hoping you mean , link to in the strategy, rather than add tl;dr prose?
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neuro` tantek: we'll do the localization on the French page then.
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tommorris Apparently, I've become a pragmatist in that I don't care about something unless I can find a solution to it.
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tantek re: 4th amendment applicability to virtual property: https://ssd.eff.org/your-computer/govt/fourth-amendment
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hadleybeeman tantek: Is there something to link to?
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tantek hadleybeeman - as a "linked data" advocate I'm surprised to hear you ask that.
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tantek as in, if you're not linking to something, you're doing it wrong. or have I mistaken the assumptions of linked data?
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tantek ;)
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tantek would love to see a psych study of how often people actually read more than 140 characters into a paragraph.
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tantek reading comprehension/retention and all that.
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tantek or rather, at various character lengths into a paragraph, and chart retention accordingly.
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Sparverius ttp://cryptomeorg.siteprotect.net/cryptome-suspended.htm
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tantek wonders if Twitter/txting has altered reading behaviors, or if Twitter/txting tapped into pre-existing reading behaviors (perhaps reinforcing them) ?
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Sparverius http://cryptomeorg.siteprotect.net/cryptome-suspended.htm
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tantek "The most common cause is an outdated, hacked CMS such as Joomla, Drupal, or WordPress"
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tantek huh: https://www.google.com/search?q="The+most+common+cause+is+an+outdated%2C+hacked+CMS+such+as+Joomla%2C+Drupal%2C+or+WordPress"
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tantek sigh. how about https://www.google.com/search?q=%22The+most+common+cause+is+an+outdated%2C+hacked+CMS+such+as+Joomla%2C+Drupal%2C+or+WordPress%22
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tommorris I seem to have managed to have attained a reasonable knowledge of technology without also acquiring an unhealthy addiction to texting and mobile gadgets.
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tantek tommorris - I'd say an external citation is needed for "without also acquiring an unhealthy addiction to texting and mobile gadgets" ;)
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tommorris It's weird. I'll be at an event with a bunch of non-techy non-geeky people, and I'll be the only person who isn't frantically tweeting/texting/instagramming/whatever.
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tantek since you say "unhealthy", perhaps a note from your doctor :D
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tantek tommorris - indeed, I know that effect
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tantek it's been quite weird watching SF turn into a city of people walking staring at glowing rectangles.
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tantek (in their hands)
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tommorris I see people in London walking down the street watching TV on tablets.
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tommorris It's utterly bizarre.
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tantek the funny thing is, I don't remember ever seeing any sci-fi movies (even B-rate) that predicted this
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tommorris Perhaps I should pull out my Nokia 100 more and post to my site with it, just to mindfuck people
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tantek perhaps it's one of those things that if written down in a movie script, no one would believe
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tommorris I don't need no apps, I have a phone that cost £10, with a battery life that lasts nearly two weeks and I can post to my own site with it
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tantek tommorris - I'm thinking a Nokia 9000, Val Kilmer / The Saint style, would be pretty sweet
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tommorris Those were amazing devices.
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_9000_Communicator
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tommorris WAP gateway time.
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tantek whoa - the Nokia 9210 can send and receive fax!
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_9210_Communicator
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tantek expects to see aaronpk to get one to test IndieAuth via fax.
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tommorris Enterprise two-factor auth.
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tommorris that's postable
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tantek and the 9500 has both fax *and* wifi support: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_9500
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Sparverius im surprised that no one has made an android fax app
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tommorris there are a few which integrate with online fax services like eFax and iFax
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Sparverius i mean
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Sparverius like over your phone connection
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Sparverius even if it'd be fucking shit slow
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tommorris probably blocked by the carriers
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tantek why would it be slow over 4G?
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tommorris or impractical to implement on the locked-down phone platforms
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tommorris certainly compared to flinging it up to a third-party anyway
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tommorris FaxAuth: http://tommorris.org/posts/8516
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tommorris needs a WS-* joke
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tantek tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 10 karma
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tantek hands tommorris http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#WS-Deathstar
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hadleybeeman tommorris: the standard for faxing is from the ITU, but I can't find a licence agreement for it: http://www.itu.int/rec/T-REC-V.34/en
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tommorris.org edited /enterprise (+240) "adding bit on anti-pattern" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /enterprise (+147) "main, see also" (view diff)
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bret sorry, can someone fill me in on the ws-{{ absurdly lofty goal }} meme?
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tantek bret - you mean besides what's been linked to here? http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#WS-Deathstar
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bret yeah
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bret What is ws?
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bret working spec?
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aaronpk tommorris: lol i probably should actually go implement fax auth on indieauth like i've been joking about
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bret oh description above
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tantek bret - Uppercase "Web Services *"
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_web_service_specifications
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donpdonp im still trying to get my brain around camlistore.
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bret danka tantek
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tantek donpdonp - how do you expect to use camlistore for your own site?
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bret its like, one of those blob stores donpdonp
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bret :p
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donpdonp tantek: im not sure. thats the problem, yet i feel something immensely cool is in there
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donpdonp bret: for real! :)
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bret where data is turned into blobs and addressed with sha1's n stuff
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donpdonp yeah, content addresses
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bret and you can play with the content address rather than the content
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bret thats my abstract understanding
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+155) "/* WS-Deathstar */ WS FAQ" (view diff)
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donpdonp it still makes a permanode address, for when you want to keep the user pointed at the same data even after it changed
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tantek donpdonp let me try another line of questioning. what is the next most important thing you want to add to your personal site?
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bret does it have that? way cool!
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aaronpk tantek: wtf how did you get flickr to add that link so quickly
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bret camlistor sounds like it could lay the foundation for the worlds most robust file sharing network ever known
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tantek aaronpk :D
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bret what link?
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donpdonp tantek: note creation, in the http://aaronparecki.com/notes/ sense
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tantek bret - as someone else implementing indieweb building blocks - what do you think of IndieMark level 0 and level 1? http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
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donpdonp but mostly im trying to understand how camlistore is different/useful than a nosql server
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tantek donpdonp - that is an excellent next goal for sure
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bret tantek: sorry I meant to go over that at some point, but fiancé just moved in and have been busy once going home.
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tantek would I be correct in assuming that if you could create notes on your own site, and POSSE to Twitter, that you would do so on your own site instead of posting directly to Twitter?
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tantek bret - np. was just trying to redirect you from less productive (WS-*) things to more productive :)
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bret haha
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donpdonp tantek: yes, that'd be great.
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bret tantek: eyes glazed over back to irc after the first paragraph of that wikipedia article
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tantek bret - haha
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bret wow thats a ton of WS!
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tantek bret - some might say, as much WS as you could fit into a Deathstar™.
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bret never heard of most of these
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tantek.com created /User:Donpark.org (+67) "h-card stub" (view diff)
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bret wonders, similar to the guestimate of the wage/hour at #osfw3c, how much money lose links represent
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bret those*
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tantek bret - billions of dollars have been spent on XML and SOAP. what could possibly go wrong?
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tantek.com edited /User:Donpark.org (+147) "Itches - note creation" (view diff)
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tantek donpdonp - how about adding yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people ?
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donpdonp oh sure, thought i was there already :)
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bret dooo eeeeet
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donpdonp well if bret says its cool...
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bret thas rite
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tantek.com edited /User:Donpark.org (+129) "goal - post own site instead of twitter directly" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /User:Donpark.org (+114) "citations" (view diff)
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donpdonp "IRC People" doesnt seem to be directly editable
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tantek donpdonp Edit link in the footer
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tantek assuming you're signed in
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donpdonp i am
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donpdonp ... add yourself (and sort yourself into the above, unless your IRC nickname really is last alphabetically :)
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donpdonp is the last thing on the page
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tantek reload?
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donpdonp done. no change
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tantek keep scrolling
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donpdonp oh wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down there
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donpdonp got it
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aaronpk should I just move all the wiki tools into the sidebar?
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tantek aaronpk - or put them in the header where people are used to seeing them e.g. Wikipedia, microformats wiki, WHATWG wiki, W3C wiki?
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aaronpk how far in the header? this design doesn't have the same "page" look as wikipedia
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donpark.org edited /IRC_People (+56) "donpdonp irc nick" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - at least the page specific set: Page Discussion Edit History Delete Move Protect Unwatch
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tantek aaronpk - even just to have the same font size/color/alignment of existing page tools links but just below the black header bar
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bret tantek: reading through indiemark again. I wonder if this would map better to a real-time-strategy like tech-tree structure rather than linear levels?
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bret with different branches
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tantek the levels are merely surrounding rings
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tantek with level 0 at the core, level 1 around that etc.
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bret i see
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donpdonp have a graphic designer turn it into an RPG skill tree http://cdn.tutsplus.com/gamedev.tutsplus.com/authors/jeff-berry/D3.jpg
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bret yeah
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bret !
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tantek haven't drawn the graphics yet - but see http://rng.io/ for a visualization of concentric rings for levels
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donpdonp neat
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tantek donpdonp that's kind of hilarious
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bret Maybe we could have some kind of additional technology relationship path?
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bret inside the rings
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tantek bret why?
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bret Because something thing don't relate to other things
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tantek my goal with indiemark was to keep the levels and pieces as simple as possible, and each justified by a UX advancement
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tantek I fear that anything that focuses on "technology relationship" will detract from user-centric (experience-centric) focus.
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bret The reason would be that POSSE and Commenting are kind of different, but ill take the simplicity reason. I haven't really thought this out
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tantek to be clear - POSSE is a means to the ends of "staying in touch with friends"
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tantek whereas "commenting" is actually a user face feature that people understand
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tantek s/user face/user-facing/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: whereas "commenting" is actually a user-facing feature that people understand
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tantek would like to solidify Indiemark levels 0 and 1 before IndieWebCampUK, and preferably most of levels 2 & 3 as well.
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bret I'll try to go through before that and actually score out what I have
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tantek exactly - see how you do, and if you don't score on something, see if it make sense that you *should* or if not, note why not
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tantek or if something is too easy/hard note that too
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bret Looking over, one rational for paths would be that I am closer to high level features like reply contexts and reply contents than say, automatic web mention sending
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bret but that could be fixed with ordering
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bret eh, ill think on it
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tantek I think reply stuff is all in level 2 (reply contexts and reply contents and automatic web mention sending)
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tantek unless I missed something
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tantek so they're not really ordered - they're all in the level 2 "cluster"
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bret if I add in a CORS request to display actual reply context on my site, it would similar crud, but maybe that won't count
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bret simulate*
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tantek.com edited /User:Donpark.org (+8) "/* Notes */ linky linky" (view diff)
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tantek yes there's plenty of challenges with replies
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aaronpk NEW HEADER BAR
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aaronpk complete with log in/out link
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bret highfives
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bret aaronpk: where?
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bret oh there!
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aaronpk what do you mean where
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bret cool
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bret cleared cache
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aaronparecki.com edited /wiki/ (+195) (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk++ !!!
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Loqi aaronpk has 210 karma
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tantek WOOT!
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Loqi giggles
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tantek oh hey - Twitter sign-in failed for me with: "Parameter "profile" must be one of the rel=me links in the site specified in the "me" parameter"
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tantek hmm - would help if my site was up
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bret Anyone else read this? http://aralbalkan.com/notes/codename-prometheus/
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tantek but what does it mean?
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tantek goes to file another trouble-ticket. sigh.
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aaronpk urgh
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tantek and site is back
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tantek.com edited /wiki/ (+36) "/* Suggestions */ * none currently!" (view diff)
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tantek nicely done aaronpk
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bret tantek: I like the home page cleanup
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aaronpk yay
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tantek thanks bret.
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tantek I think there's something really powerful about the three stacked images of groups of smiling people.
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tantek aaronpk - let's remember to take such a photo at IndieWebCampUK
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aaronpk yeah! definitely
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bret were there any group shots from osf23c or any other meet ups?
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bret osfw3c
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bret I know ben was taking pics
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bret checks werd.io
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tantek no group shots per se. some audience / room shots
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tantek.com edited /Events (+170) "move recent event to past, encouragement to others to plan more events" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+59) "/* IndieWebCamp */ add More section for even more future events" (view diff)
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tantek grew the home page slightly to link to more events (just in case people can't make it to the next camp, or they want to do something smaller/sooner)
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tantek bret, aaronpk, what do you think of http://indiewebcamp.com/#Distinguishing
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aaronpk i like it!
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Loqi [@PulpoSolutions1] RT @LighthouseArts: In Brighton for #dConstruct or #ireality? Come along to IndieWebCamp happening here, with @aral &amp
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Loqi co: http://t.co/YgiVk… (http://twtr.io/bvbft1XjrE)
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bret I think its great. Though part of me wants to clarify that the ultimate goal of selfdogfooding isn't a utopia where everyone is a web developer though, or that we are just a developer centric project.
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk it's a means to an end
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tantek bret - yeah we'll evolve that
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aaronpk i think i was getting at that with my conversation with scottjenson
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bret It seems like people (citation needed) sometimes react with "I don't wanna make my own CMS"
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tantek but right now we're definitely at the selfdogfood phase
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tantek bret - yes they do, and reasonably so
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bret Not sure where that fits in
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tantek it's just that currently, if you want to help solve indieweb problems, you need to have your own site and be selfdogfooding on it to understand the problems well enough to help solve them.
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tantek bret - it doesn't fit in, because there's no "consumer-grade" indieweb "solution" yet
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bret i think most reasonable people will see that its a means, but the world is full of unreasonable people
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tantek all we can do is steer them to the least harmful silos for now
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bret hehe
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aaronpk heh, "least harmful silos"
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tantek bret - that's ok, we're documenting responses with permalinks to all the unreasonable people
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tantek e.g. Tumblr
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tantek (a less harmful silo)
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aaronpk sounds worthy of noting on [[silo]]
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tantek not sure how to capture it
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bret Maybe its worth a note in the FAQ? http://indiewebcamp.com/Selfdogfood Q: IWC is a crazy utopian cult that thinks the entire world knows html A: No Selfdogfooding is a means to an end...
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tantek bret - how about we use actual question wording from someone?
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tantek :P
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bret yeah i was just kidding
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aaronpk lol
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bret did you say we have a page with links to naysayers?
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tantek you mean those who whine by sharecropping their naysaying on silos?
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bret the th documenting responses with permalinks to all the unreasonable people
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aaronpk I found the permalinks to our wiki pages super helpful for my discussion with scott!
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aaronpk even using some of the pages inline in a sentence!
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tantek bret - we don't categorize by naysaying
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tantek we simply document each piece of information / FAQ by topic where it is relevant
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bret oh i see, i misunderstood
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tantek we don't focus on naysaying. we focus on the topics we find productive, and reframe questions accordingly.
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bret shaming probably would prob cause problems
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tantek aaronpk - great!
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tantek bret - we are better than that :)
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tantek aaronpk - Scott still brought up some (semi-novel) misconceptions that deserve their own FAQ entries
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tantek I think the tricky thing is figuring out productive reframings of people's statements / questions.
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tantek one of the big misframings is federation-centrism
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bret the email example?
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tantek implied in the Twitter thread
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tantek Chris did ask a lot of the right questions at least
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tantek this thread: https://twitter.com/ade_oshineye/status/371604532910112768
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@ade_oshineye Starting to think OpenWebFoo10 was the last best hope for something and we failed.
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tantek I almost replied, speak for yourself Ade.
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tantek e.g. this tweet from Scott misframed federation as a goal: https://twitter.com/scottjenson/status/371657985887461376 - and Chris's reply is a reasonable rebuttal.
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@scottjenson @chrismessina @ade_oshineye For me? More open & federated services that extend the web. AllGoogle or AllFacebook is easier but isnt a future
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tantek barnaby's responses were also spot on
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tantek BTW - anybody ever find the "original" branch conversation they keep referring to?
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aaronpk I misunderstood, I think scott tried moving over to branch part way through
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tantek he did?
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aaronpk yea you can see the tweets branch made from his account when he added people
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bret is Anil dash behind branch?
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