#indiewebcamp 2013-08-31

2013-08-31 UTC
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tantek.com
edited /2013/osfw3c (+177) "add URLs section with overview and Lanyrd URL"
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@indieboxproject
Indie Box Project design principles and assumptions. First cut. http://indieboxproject.org/wiki/Design_Principles_and_Key_Assumptions #indieweb #pcloud
(twitter.com/_/status/373601563610075136)
andreypopp, npdoty, poppy, bnvk, jgraham909 and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+876) "/* Working On */ web actions, to selfdogfood an IndieMark Level 1 requirement and document the experience of doing so to make it easier for others"
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tantek
working on some web actions stuffs
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bret
!tell tantek Yeah! I like it! Looks really good.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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neuro`
Good morning.
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@temporaryhuman
@Dymaxion Back in the day we called it #Protocol vs #Empire http://flavors.me/silverton "The" internet too static. Need more @IndieWebCamp types?
(twitter.com/_/status/373706763389779968)
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Loqi
[@aral] @t @braempje I believe I articulated my case at http://t.co/g2MIKdlc9h. Will clarify difference in future post
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Loqi
not 140 chars :) #indiedata (http://twtr.io/c4xSHRXWcs)
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Loqi
tantek: bret left you a message 3 hours, 22 minutes ago: Yeah! I like it! Looks really good.
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tantek
thanks bret!
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@aral
@t @braempje (Indie Data is an evolution of #ownyourdata — time to add experience design & mainstream adoption as core focus areas.)
(twitter.com/_/status/373708915420459008)
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tantek.com
edited /antipatterns (+25) "/* mass adoption */ or "mainstream adoption""
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@t
@aral @braempje #indieweb #UX-focussed since start. "mainstream" before #selfdogfood is a known anti-pattern: http://tantek.com/2013/243/t1/indieweb-ux-focussed-start
(twitter.com/_/status/373720294751748096)
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@aral
Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata
(twitter.com/_/status/373754758768902144)
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@aral
Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373754867107790848)
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@storagebod
RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373757348470599680)
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tommorris
Disagree with aral. Trickle-down technology only "doesn't work" if your goal is to get what you are working on into the hands of the wider world
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neuro`
!tell aaronpk I'm setting up an indieauth server. If you're interested we can setup some DNS round robin / other technique to ensure authentication is still possible when the main indieauth.com site fails.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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neuro`
Loqi: you're so sweet
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Loqi
grins profusely
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@CraigGrannell
RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373770991262236672)
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@ramsden
RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373772962392199168)
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@mindcrash
RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373774998768332802)
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@notatibm
RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373796301257052160)
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@eyelearn_tips
RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373796383620620288)
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@fdevillamil
IndieAuth is so far what I consider the best solution for reliable, decentralized authentication, but I see at lea... http://t37.net/note/30854-indieauth-https-indieauth-com-is-so-far-what-i-consider-the-best-solution-for-re
(twitter.com/_/status/373807571611947008)
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@bigstilton
Wow. Thanks. I now get #XO. RT @aral: Trickle”down technology and why it doesn’t work. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ #indiedata #xo
(twitter.com/_/status/373828468917948416)
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aaronpk
good morning!
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Loqi
aaronpk: neuro` left you a message 5 hours, 4 minutes ago: I'm setting up an indieauth server. If you're interested we can setup some DNS round robin / other technique to ensure authentication is still possible when the main indieauth.com site fails.
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aaronpk
hackernews comment thread on aral's post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6306671
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aaronpk
is reading aral's trickle-down post
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp
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tantek
so is Aral's post laughably disprovable or am I missing something?
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tantek
time for more wiki pages?
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aaronpk
please do
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tantek
so let's start with the easy retorts
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aaronpk
i got 1/3 through it and started getting annoyed so I'm pausing to write up a response before I finish reading
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tantek
I decided to brainstorm here first before writing up a post :)
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aaronpk
that works too
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tantek
so 1. he's wrong about open source: e.g. Firefox
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aaronpk
re: "the glaring lack of open source adoption in the consumer space"?
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tantek
or should I say, e.g. Firefox, Chrome
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tantek
aaronpk, right
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aaronpk
also Android?
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tantek
actually, it's quite the opposite, almost every single device you use runs at least some open source, and most, visibly so, up to the UI layer
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tantek
his argument about open source is a 1990s argument that has since been disproven.
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aaronpk
not a good thesis to base a post on
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aaronpk
he must have a specfic model in mind that he's referring to
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aaronpk
cause I don't believe he would be that ignorant
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tantek
I think he doesn't "get" the fact that we are all UX focused here
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aaronpk
that is also true, but a separate issue
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tantek
because, frankly, he's behind on his own indieweb "development" and that frustrates him, he doesn't know why, so he blames the rest of the community
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tantek
for not having the same focus as him and providing him with a solution he wants
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tantek
which is why I made the point about tweeting from your own site in my most recent (last night) reply
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tantek
(he does have a quite a pretty blog and blog posts though)
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barnabywalters
good afternoon indiewebcamp
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tantek
good day barnabywalters
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aaronpk
ok i'm just going to continue reading the post and commenting here
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aaronpk
will compile into a proper reply post after that
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tantek
also Aral misunderstands "trickle-down economics" which doesn't help. the first HackerNews comment is correct.
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aaronpk
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6306885 "This is a fallacy based on a complete misunderstanding of trickle down economics. The premise of trickle down economics is that a rising tide lifts all boats, which has occurred. The poor today are considerably richer than even the middle class of earlier eras."
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barnabywalters
I finally managed to articulate exactly how I disagree with aral etc’s disparaging comments about the wiki sign in system this morning
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barnabywalters
been struggling with it for a couple of days
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: awesome. posted somewhere?
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aaronpk
also apologies if I talk over you with comments ATM
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: just writing up now. tl;dr:
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tantek
barnabywalters - we're debunking this post here in the channel: http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/
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aaronpk
Re: "In technology, some of us share a similar philosophy to trickle”down economics. We believe that when a technically”savvy elite of enthusiasts build tools and technologies for themselves, that technology will eventually trickle down and help less technically”savvy members of society."
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aaronpk
I believe he is referring directly to us
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barnabywalters
“Indiewebcamp and by extension indieauth and the wiki are tools which, by not compromising on their principles, expose UX flaws further up in the chain, and make fixing them a practical necessity rather than an idealistic desire”
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aaronpk
which is also a misunderstanding of #ownyourdata and #selfdogfood
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barnabywalters
(from my notes)
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tantek
aaronpk, right
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tantek
barnabywalters - great way to explain it
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aaronpk
I don't expect the tools I'm building for myself (p3k, etc) will ever end up being used by anybody except myself
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barnabywalters
e.g. if you find adding a link to be a bad experience, that’s not indieauth’s problem, it’s further up the chain
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barnabywalters
and needs to be fixed at the source
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barnabywalters
rather than painted over by compromising further down the chain
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tantek
aaronpk - but by building them as open source, you are enabling others to build more tools as well, which will likely be used by (even just a few) more people
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tantek
as long as that patter repeats, the set of people using the tools grows
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aaronpk
I'm building these tools to explore UX patterns and figure out simple protocols to use to communicate cross-sites
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tantek
s/patter/pattern
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: as long as that pattern repeats, the set of people using the tools grows
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aaronpk
and yeah I also build components of it as open source so that code can be shared
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tantek
aaronpk - right, that's another key part of what Aral doesn't seem to understand about selfdogfood - that's the only way we've found to practically figure out these very challenging decentralized protocols
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aaronpk
so, re: "We cannot create solutions for enthusiasts and magically expect them to also fit the needs of consumers." I agree. The point is that's not what we're doing.
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tantek
previous efforts at directly designing decentralized protocols (without selfdogfood) always result in overly complex protocols that not enough people can implement. e.g. Salmon
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tantek
aaronpk - however, let's start with some very poignant counter-examples to Aral's hypothetical claim
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tantek
from say, worst to best, or rather, most annoying to traditional design-heads to most accepted
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tantek
e.g. URLs. never even designed to be something people were supposed to remember and use, they've *accidentally* succeeded in massive amounts to the point where they're on nearly every consumer product.
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tantek
and people can type them into a browser (no matter whether into the address bar or search box or whatever), and they go to the right place
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barnabywalters
tantek: I’d be interested in a citation for URLs not being designed to be remembered — I didn’t know that was the case
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tantek
that was a enthusiast-first solution that was specifically NOT intended for consumers, and yet, now consumers are totally exposed to them and using them (whether they know it or not)
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tantek
barnabywalters - it
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tantek
it's from original things that Tim Berners-Lee has said about them (inventor of URLs)
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tantek
he also said the same thing about HTML - which ironically scaled *because* every barista could teach themselves HTML during the dotcom boom.
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tantek
ok so that's counter-example 1.
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tantek
ready for counter- example 2?
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aaronpk
ok, great
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tantek
hashtags
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barnabywalters
that’s a great example
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tantek
Chris Messina suggested hashtags as a simple thing for himself and his geek community of BarCamp to use
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tantek
and they have exploded and become super-mainstream consumer now. on every TV show.
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aaronpk
that still blows my mind that I see them on TV all the time
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tantek
that was enthusiast-first technology, designed *for* enthusiasts, that also, semi-accidentally succeeded.
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barnabywalters
probably because they served a real need and were based on existing usage
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tantek
to Messina's credit, he did create them with an eye towards semi-broad applicability/usability (he has a design background)
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tantek
barnabywalters - doesn't matter. it's still a perfect example of a "solutions created by enthusiasts for enthusiasts" that happened to "also work for consumers" (quotes from Aral's post)
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tantek
so that's example 2.
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barnabywalters
tantek: oh sure, I wasn’t trying to discredit the example
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tantek
counter-examples 3 and 4 are even bigger, and reflects what happens when you design for yourself and friends first, and then iterate/improve the design over and over and over for *years*
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tantek
counter-example 3: Twitter
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tantek
Jack brainstormed/designed what he wanted *for himself*
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tantek
that's documented history
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tantek
In 2006 Twitter was designed for and rapidly adopted by not just technology enthusiasts, but insider, SF-focused, technology enthusiasts
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tantek
a very small, very geeky crowd
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tantek
and through continuous iteration, it has now become perhaps the top device/network-independent messaging platform in existence
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tantek
or maybe second place.
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tantek
and let's pause for a moment on this one to expose another fallacy in Aral's post
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tantek
he presents a false dichotomy between "enthusiasts" and "consumers"
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tantek
the real answer is, there is no one such thing, they are points on a spectrum
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tantek
a continuum as it were - a concept not foreign to Aral, as he himself wrote about the problem of the false dichotomy of sites vs. apps and the continuum that actually exists: http://aralbalkan.com/notes/the-documents-to-applications-continuum/
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aaronpk
I think I am a good example of someone who lives on that spectrum but doesn't fall into one side or the other.
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aaronpk
I used to tear apart computers and re-build them, swapping out midi cards and graphics cards and hard drives
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm going to go out on a limb and say nearly everyone here, in this channel lives in *the middle* of the enthusiasts <---> consumer spectrum
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aaronpk
totally, I wanted to point out some specifics :)
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aaronpk
at some point I became more interested in using the computers than tinkering with them, which is around the time I switched over to OS X from windows
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tantek
and selfdogfood, especially with a *public* website, where your friends can praise you or complain or make fun of you for what you publish, and what it looks like, makes you a consumer as well as an enthusiast.
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aaronpk
so for my main machine that I use every day I want it to *just work* and don't want to think about the internals. but I still install crap on linux servers when I need to
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah, you're a little more enthusiast than most :)
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tantek
(which is awesome)
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aaronpk
I also wrote and have spoken about what I call "low friction personal data collection" http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/10/28/1/low-friction-personal-data-collection
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tantek
(I'm constantly frustrated by having to install *anything* on a linux server)
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah that post and your talk at OSBridge were awesome examples of that
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tantek
of a UX-driven enthusiast :)
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aaronpk
I'm willing to put out some amount of effort to collect personal data to use later. That is something *very* much in the enthusiast space right now
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aaronpk
but even I have a threshold of the amount of crap I put up with to use these devices, so I end up not using many of them.
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tantek
so perhaps it's not a continuum, that Aral is missing, but the emergence of the enthusiast-consumer hybrid
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tantek
we're hybrids here, we care very much about the experience *anyone* has when they visit our websites
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tantek
and Aral is not used to seeing such hybrids (though ironically I think he thinks of himself as one)
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aaronpk
so what I'm getting at is I take personal offense to Aral's statement that enthusiasts and consumers are "two very different demographics with very different levels of knowledge"
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tantek
aaronpk - I do too
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tantek
similar false dichotomies used to arise about web designers and web developers
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tantek
we know better now that the good ones tend to be hybrids. designers that code. developers that build and iterate on UI with feedback.
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aaronpk
he has a little footnote about that
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aaronpk
"Needless to say, enthusiasts and consumers are not necessarily mutually exclusive demographics. We can also view them as modes that people subscribe to at different times."
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aaronpk
but I think he still manages to set up the dichotomy there as well, by saying "you may be an enthusiast when playing with your Raspberry Pi and a consumer when you just want to talk to your boyfriend over FaceTime"
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tantek
yeah - it's beyond just "modes" though
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tantek
right, "modes" still frames it as a dichotomy
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tantek
which is not how this channel or community operates in my experience
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aaronpk
he's missing the case where I am building my own tools (enthusiast) but want them to work seamlessly (consumer)
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tantek
are there pure enthusiasts in here or at indiewebcamps who don't connect their inventions directly to UI benefits? sure, I can think of examples
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aaronpk
as if somehow by building my own tools I only want to build something complex and hard to use
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tantek
but they're the minority
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tantek
the dominant culture in this channel and at IndieWebCamp is that of enthusiasts that are enthusiastic about creating great experiences.
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aaronpk
and the culture here really does "focus on what the technology enables [us] to achieve"
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tantek
if uplevel this a bit, I think Aral may be feeling like a bit of an outsider, since he hasn't been involved with indiewebcamp other than the first IndieWebCampUK
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tantek
he rarely (begrudgingly) joins IRC (this channel)
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aaronpk
he should hop in the IRC channel more often
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tantek
of course he should. but he doesn't. and didn't until just a few weeks ago.
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aaronpk
i mean yeah IRC clients are not the most user friendly things, but once you configure it it works pretty well
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tantek
aaronpk - indeed, IRC clients have their own UI challenges
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barnabywalters
I found colloquy to be pretty seamless
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tantek
baranbywalters - I find Colloquy to be full of UI warts
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tantek
especially with "setup
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barnabywalters
tantek: really? interesting
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aaronpk
setup is a huge pain for any client I've used
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tantek
aaronpk - agreed
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barnabywalters
I can think of one UI wart in colloquy OTTOMH
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tantek
like TCP/IP setup used to be
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tantek
or modem/PPP dialup setup
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aaronpk
haha yeah
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barnabywalters
tantek: what’s your preferred client?
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tantek
barnabywalters - easy summary: Colloquy sucks at: set-up, turning off growls, search (of current conversations or logs), etc.
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tantek
I still use it because it's the least sucky on Mac but still
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aaronpk
I would love to see a super simple IRC client that streamlined the setup of one channel
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tantek
aaronpk - hence the web UI links on the wiki
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tantek
to use IRC via the web
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tantek
that's pretty super simple
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aaronpk
yeah, that's a good stop-gap
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tantek
so that's what Colloquy needs to aspire to
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tantek
it needs be an "irc://" browser essentially
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aaronpk
i've been getting IRC to be used more internally at Esri, which ends up working out great once people are set up, but is super confusing and frustrating to people to get going the first time
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tantek
accept/handle clicks on "irc://" links from other apps and just work as seamlessly as the web UI
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aaronpk
yeah why *doesn't* that work
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tantek
aaronpk - agreed, setup is the worst part
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tantek
aaronpk - because it's, wait for it, yet another open source project ;)
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tantek
(they can't help it, they're enthusiasts ;) )
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barnabywalters
colloquy is open source, right? any idea how receptive the devs are to suggestions?
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barnabywalters
problem with IRC is that everyone uses it in a different way
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tantek
there's a spectrum of open source UI too
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tantek
e.g. Firefox is pretty awesome, Adium is pretty good, and Colloquy is good when setup but still odd in places
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barnabywalters
e.g. tantek, I haven’t found the UI warts you dislike to be bothersome, probably because I use IRC very differently
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aaronpk
ok back to the article. I've still only read about half
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tantek
barnabywalters - all the interactions around PMs (private messages) suck too
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tantek
PMs need to work just like IM
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tantek
and they dont'
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barnabywalters
yeah, that’s a non-intuitive part of IRC
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tantek
there's just enough weirdness, awkwardness, extra clicks etc.
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tantek
barnabywalters - no reason for it to be non-intuitive! IM UIs (e.g. Adium) solved this!
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tantek
they just need to copy it
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tantek
ok closing the IRC client </aside> for now
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barnabywalters
goes back to writing
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aaronpk
limechat does a pretty good job of PMs. you just double click on a person and you get a new chat for that person
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tantek
re: Aral not being in the channel
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tantek
and he has yet to contribute to the wiki
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aaronpk
do you think he feels unwelcome? or like somehow he's not "allowed" to edit other pages?
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tantek
aaronpk - I do think he may have some "outsider" syndrome going on. Not because of anything deliberate we or he has done but just from a difference in tools
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tantek
I think it does start from not hanging out in IRC
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tantek
because once you hang out in IRC, we *encourage* editing of pages
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tantek
so one question for us is, is IRC really a limiting factor for folks?
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tantek
for the indieweb community/movement etc.
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aaronpk
Re: the "Richard Stallman" paragraph, I am somewhat amused to see IndieAuth in the same list as GNU, Linux and PGP Keys
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tantek
clearly people find us (and quote/tweet us) via the wiki and our blog posts
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tantek
but a tiny fraction make it into IRC
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tantek
aaronpk - fine company :)
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tantek
he's right about PGP keys
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tantek
though, somehow github has broadened the reach of SSH keys
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neuro`
Good morning
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aaronpk
heh, "...what I call our digital selves..." that term has been around a lot longer than he's been using it
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah, perhaps you can get caseorganic to provide some earlier citations ;)
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aaronpk
ok, maybe this explains his lack of interaction here: "... there is currently great work being done by enthusiasts for enthusiasts in the IndieWebCamp initiative ..."
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tantek
he's slightly wrong about that
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tantek
it's "by enthusiasts for *themselves*"
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aaronpk
he's very wrong, but the point is that is his view of it
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tantek
which is a *very* subtle but important distinction
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aaronpk
"we cannot magically expect the solutions created [by the indiewebcamp initiative] to trickle”down to consumers" is again missing the point
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barnabywalters
(aside: who is the royal “we” aral uses?)
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tantek
it's worse than missing the point, it's a strawman argument
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aaronpk
"This is why we need a separate, complimentary initiative..." and "We will, of course, work alongside our IndieWebCamp friends and support the IndieWebCamp initiative..."
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tantek
none of us has said or implied "magically expect the solutions … to trickle”down to consumers"
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tantek
he's setting that up as a strawman and then arguing against it
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aaronpk
so it seems that he sees indiewebcamp as something that does not align with his goals, so is setting up himself to be outside of it
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tantek
aaronpk - the sadder thing is, I don't think Aral fundamentally understands what "movement" "initiative" and "community" mean (judging by his lack of engagement here in IRC and on the wiki)
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tantek
a blog post is not a "movement" (c.f. indiedata.org)
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aaronpk
specifically the "for enthusiasts by enthusiasts" framing
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tantek
so on the one hand, I'm quite happy to see complementary (he misspelled it) communities emerge
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tantek
OTOH, judging from his actions (or lack there of :/ ) Aral doesn't seem to "get" communities, movements etc. so I'm not sure what he'll achieve on his own besides a few retweets.
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tantek
event organizing yes - Aral is *very* good at rallying people for an event
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tantek
he threw an amazing conference (Update) back in 2011
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tantek
from scratch
smus joined the channel
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tantek
as in, the very first Update conference was huge and a huge success - exceptionally difficult to pull-off in the conference business
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tantek
but one time events are very different than nurturing and growing a community over the long run
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tantek
or, a movement, for that matter
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tantek
in particular - look at the beauty of the design
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tantek
I think Aral has a *very high* personal aesthetic sense of design (you see it in his blog too)
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tantek
(something we know we've had challenges with on IndieWebcamp.com at times for example)
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aaronpk
sure would be great to have some design help with the wiki ;)
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tantek
(whether it's the order/findability of content, or login links ;) )
#
tantek
but we're improving, continuously, even if slowly
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tantek
(kind of like open source)
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tantek
so here's the thing, we *know* indiewebcamp design/ux can be improved considerably (whether the wiki, or even what we're all running on our own sites)
xtof joined the channel
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tantek
(and pardon me if anyone here thinks they've already got a perfect or nearly so UX on their site, if so, please share with the rest of us so we may learn ;) )
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tantek
how do we harness people like Aral's design creativity and help them feel more included?
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barnabywalters
still doesn’t have clickable buttons for a lot of stuff — URLs are my UI ;)
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aaronpk
that's a great question
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tantek
because right now, I think Aral feels like an outsider, and is hence driven to start something new, that focuses on what he sees as the right focus
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aaronpk
his "indiedata" initiative is focused "squarely on fostering the development of consumer solutions"
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tantek
there's nothing wrong with starting something new, except I think he is doing so for the wrong reasons
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tantek
well, that may be too, if he truly wants to follow the mass adoption anti-pattern, that's his lesson to learn
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aaronpk
I also wonder about his thoughts on the business model side of it http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models
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tantek
that is if he wants to do that before he selfdogfoods
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tantek
but again, I think the "consumer solutions" focus is a (somewhat) red herring
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tantek
I think this is more about he doesn't feel included
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tantek
whether that's personally, or his focus, or his priorities etc.
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tantek
and I think some of that comes from a misperception of indieweb and indiewebcamp
LauraJ joined the channel
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tantek
and maybe some of it does come from a different focus
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tantek
but I don't think we're as far as apart as he makes it sound
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tantek
welcome LauraJ!
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aaronpk
the question is whether he doesn't feel included *because* he sees our focus as "for enthusiasts by enthusiasts" or whether that comment came from feeling not included
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tantek
aaronpk, I think the latter (as evidenced by his not even really trying with IRC and wiki)
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tantek
and then he's constructed the former as the excuse
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aaronpk
but then what are his reasons for not engaging on IRC and the wiki?
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tantek
difference in comfort of tools
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tantek
(also perhaps not understanding that modern *innovation* communities are built with IRC and wiki)
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aaronpk
i think he really does hate wiki syntax. he keeps apologising for the signup process which is mostly a mediawiki thing
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tantek
is it? I think he's apologizing for all of it.
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tantek
he doesn't understand the deliberate UX barrier to keep it creator-focused.
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aaronpk
ok I've got a bunch of stuff compiled from our IRC notes into a blog post
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aaronpk
need a bit more editing still, but that won't take long
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tantek
aaronpk - cool
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tantek
I do think we need to break down some of these nuggets into FAQs on the wiki
#
tantek
because they won't be the first time these misconceptions happen
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tantek
that's one of the challenges with blog post vs. blog post dialog
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aaronpk
yeah. it may be easier to do so once I've pulled them out into this post
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tantek
it's hard to actually follow the arguments
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tantek
whereas if we have specific URLs for each point / counter-point
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tantek
then it becomes easier to reference when others repeat such points in the future (outside of any blog post)
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tantek
as you did when you were discussing with Scott Jenson
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tantek
you didn't have to write a blog post to argue with him because the wiki made enough points for you
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tantek
that you could summarize in a sentence, and then reference a URL for more
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aaronpk
that was super convenient
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tantek
wiki-fying this knowledge thus scales better, and provides better community memory than long posts
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tantek
but starting with a long post is fine
#
tantek
though I've started to instead start with IRC discussion and then go straight to wiki (instead of blog post debates)
#
tantek
skipping the long blog post step
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tantek
or rather, if I do blog, I'll then link from my post to the longer explanations on the wiki
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tantek
blog posts can suffer from tl;dr
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tantek
the only way to avoid that is to put the complete "proofs" of the points on the wiki and reference them by URL
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aaronpk
ok, I'll finish editing this, share a private draft of it with you, and further trim it down by moving some content to wiki pages
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tantek
also if anyone else wants to help with extracting some of the points/counter-points from the above IRC chat and wikifying - greatly appreciated!
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tantek
or even just discussing where on the wiki to put what points
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neuro`
Need to backlog first :)
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tantek
let's demonstrate what real community can do ;)
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neuro`
Let's demonstrate there's a real community first ;)
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aaronpk
also I'm happy to take suggestions on reformatting the IRC logs to make them easier to read/cite from :)
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tantek
neuro` I think we have, across multiple timezones, 24/7, and even in French ;)
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tantek
aaronpk the logs are great
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tantek
better for wikifying is to copy/paste the text and clean it up, simplify it, make good paragraphs etc.
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tantek
I think it's what the liberal arts majors call "writing" :)
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: agreed, wonderfully formatted and marked up
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aaronpk
e.g. i'm not convinced a fixed-width font is the best, but lack sufficient reasons to change it
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barnabywalters
tweet short URLs seem to be inconsistently logged
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aaronpk
ah I think that happens when there's a \n in a tweet
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tantek
neuro` btw - re: "demonstrate there's a real community first" - we have, here's the citation: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/08/indie-web/
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: your article pages look nice!
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aaronpk
is that a new design?
smus joined the channel
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: thanks! yep, I’ve did a lot of work to it last month
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tantek
barnabywalters - excellent length of blog post and well written
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aaronpk
very nice!
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aaronpk
lol I love "What may be a nightmare, however, is the process of owning your identity in the first place"
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barnabywalters
next up is the posting UI — I’ve been giving all the attention to notes, articles need some love :)
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barnabywalters
thanks tantek, aaronpk
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barnabywalters
I’m trying to strike a balance between wiki style and blog style, partly by making the summary an actual summary as opposed to an intro
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tantek
barnabywalters - perhaps post some notes (with a link to your article) @-replying to @aral etc. so that their tweet permalinks show your follow-ups
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tantek
barnabywalters - indeed, that's what journalists call a "lead" (sometimes errantly called a "lede")
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tantek
"gives the reader the main idea of the story."
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barnabywalters
this is the third time this month I’ve wanted multiple replies (to both of aral’s tweets and laura’s tweet). might actually have to build that soon
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tantek
the challenge with multi-reply is that you can build it for your own site but you'll inevitably have to pick one tweet as the in_reply_to_status_id for your POSSE copy.
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barnabywalters
tantek: hm, I suppose sending multiple POSSE copies is likely to be over the top in most cases
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barnabywalters
at most one to each author
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tantek
oh that's an interesting idea
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tantek
so one reply note on your site -> multiple tweet @-replies
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tantek
do the tweet @-replies have the same permashortlink or permashortcitation?
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aaronpk
I suppose they would
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barnabywalters
I see twitter as three things: social BC, a feed reader, and a useful notification system
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barnabywalters
tantek: yep
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tantek
(since they all refer to the same one reply note on your own site)
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barnabywalters
this case is using it as the third, a notification system
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tantek
and causing your reply to show up under *all* of their tweet permalinks on Twitter
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tantek
this idea has some promise
#
tantek
it *might* annoy some people on twitter
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tantek
(who see three tweets from you in a row saying the same thing)
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tantek
but it may be worthy of experimentation
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tantek
looking forward to seeing how you make this work barnabywalters
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tantek
how would I POSSE an @-reply to one of your multi-replies?
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tantek
do I then have to POSSE multi-reply too to your POSSE multi-reply?
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neuro`
Great post barnabywalters. I didn't saw Aral's post today, but published some thoughts about Indie Auth sooner today http://t37.net/note/30854-indieauth-https-indieauth-com-is-so-far-what-i-consider-the-best-solution-for-re
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aaronpk
mmm I really want those little paragraph anchors like on github readme files
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neuro`
tantek: I perfectly know we have an active community, but other people around may not be aware of it enough - yet.
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neuro`
barnabywalters: which licence are you using for your articles?
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tantek
neuro` it's ok for our community to grow slowly but steadily. Better chance of preserving principles and culture that way.
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /multiple-reply (+508) "/* Multiple Reply in Silos */ noted possible solution to twitter multiple reply issue"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
neuro`: thanks, just reading your post
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neuro`
tantek: agree.
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tantek
neuro` re: your indieauth post, perhaps you could note some of the issues you raise here? http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth#Issues
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barnabywalters
neuro`: currently my posts are all technically © all rights reserved, I need to change them to a liberal license by default
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neuro`
tantek: will do.
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tantek
especially design-related things. easier to follow-up/iterate on a wiki page than on a blog post.
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tantek
thanks much!
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tantek
barnabywalters - you can also contribute what pieces you want from your posts to the wiki
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tantek
which puts them in a very liberal license
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neuro`
barnabywalters: anything against myself translating in French and republishing at my place?
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neuro`
(and on the French wiki page if needed indeed)
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barnabywalters
neuro`: absolutely not! In fact xtof has translated my posts in the past
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barnabywalters
oh shoot, I’m just going to add a blanket CC license to the entirety of my site
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barnabywalters
then I can CC0 selectively later if I want to
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tantek
barnabywalters - makes sense
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tantek
CC-by with a note to attribute by linking/citing the original should be sufficient
#
tantek
though you can also require h-cite markup in your attribute requirements if you want ;)
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tantek
(cc-by depends on the author specifying what attribution they want if any, and how to do so)
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barnabywalters
I currently have no way of automating h-cite in my posting UI (as I do h-card) so I’m not going to require it o anyone else until I have something in place
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barnabywalters
which I’ve documented or whatever
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tantek
barnabywalters - you can make it easier for folks by providing copy/paste markup to cite your posts
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barnabywalters
yeah I should do that
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barnabywalters
yuk, the creative commons markup generator has a <br> in
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tantek
barnabywalters - you need to completely rewrite the markup from CC
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tantek
their generator is utter crap
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tantek
puts so much noise in it
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aaronpk
heh I wish I had the ability to manually tweak my twitter posse text
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: I used to but hated the noise it introduced in the posting UI
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tantek
barnabywalters, note the input box with "HTML:" above it at the bottom of my posts
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: yeah true. I already have a "preview" box so I can see what it will look like on twitter, shouldn't be hard to make that editable
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tantek
oh - just to close the loop - example 4 which I mentioned but never got to
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tantek
re: Aral and enthusiast tech
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tantek
counter-example 4: Facebook
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tantek
built by an enthusiast for himself and his immediate friends/colleagues. deliberately started exclusive. and then yet again, iterated.
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@aral
@BarnabyWalters Hey Barnaby, I believe the problem is the focus on the web as an essential element. I can’t see why the web bit is necessary
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@aral
@BarnabyWalters i.e., why can’t be identify directly via email or phone? Am I missing something?
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@aaronpk
@fdevillamil Thanks for the notes! Re 1: adding rel=me is a manual step right now if you're... #indieauth http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/08/31/1/indieauth
(twitter.com/_/status/373871925866418176)
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tantek
whoa that's a huge reply-context block of text
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aaronpk
wow that is not idea
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barnabywalters
I added a max-height to my reply contexts pretty quickly ;)
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aaronpk
hah that would fix it
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tantek
barnabywalters - re: email, that's already debunked here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Why_web_sign-in#Why_not_email
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tantek
re: phone, that's even worse (in terms of being dependent on silo provider)
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barnabywalters
also dependant on quickly-changing 10 digit numbers :/
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tantek
also, 10 digit numbers are less friendly than domain names
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tantek
doubt me? why do ads now have URLs instead of 1-800 numbers?
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tantek
also, URLs are worldwide
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barnabywalters
easily demonstrated by the frequency at which I see people on facebook saying “I have a new phone, text me your numbers”
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tantek
phone numbers, sometimes
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tantek
phone #s are disposable
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barnabywalters
imagine also having to re-sign-up for everything!
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tantek
in today's culture, people don't consider them part of their identity
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tantek
they're about as much of your identity as your IP address - do you know that by heart?
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barnabywalters
basically, email and phone #s don’t allow you to own your own content and identity
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barnabywalters
the web does
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tantek
barnabywalters - heh. "write up a proposal in detail" Aral's been doing a lot of writing, not much building/creating. he might be missing the talker vs. doer distinction.
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barnabywalters
or at least is the best way we have at the moment of doing so
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barnabywalters
hence the importance of the web
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tantek
barnabywalters - want to write the FAQ for Why not phone numbers ?
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Why_web_sign-in (+463) "/* Why not email */ added why not Phone numbers stub"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
a proposal for a new signup system for indiewecamp?
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@aral
@BarnabyWalters (Going to write up a proposal in detail as 140 characters probably not best place for it.)
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barnabywalters
if it disregards the web, then I suspect it will not be of much use for indieWEBcamp
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barnabywalters
but I’m interested to see what he’s thinking
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barnabywalters
also if it’s simple enough for him to put together a working prototype quickly
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barnabywalters
as web sign in was
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tantek
many have attempted solving the web identity problem, few have actually built something, fewer still something which works
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tantek
good luck with that.
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neuro`
Yesterday, I met a guy calle Henry Story, who's working on a decentralized social network with authentication + ACLs using RDF everywhere. Not sure what to think about it yet.
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neuro`
Apparently, he worked on webId http://semanticweb.com/tag/henry-story
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tantek
neuro` - sorry to hear that. I know about that effort and it's a big RDF-centric lost cause.
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tantek
neuro` - did you ask him what his personal site was?
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tantek
did you ask him what he's worked on he's actually running on his personal site? #selfdogfood
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neuro`
tantek: no, I was actually trying to concentrate on solving a bug on Publify. But apparently he'll be in Brighton next week.
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tantek
always ask these questions when you meet new people who claimed to be working on anything "decentralized", or "social network".
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neuro`
I must confess I was too busy to listen :(
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neuro`
But you can ask him when you see him next week :)
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tantek
well he's not signed up for IndieWebCamp: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Creators so I don't know if I'll see him
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neuro`
That must be because he didn't want to use something not relying on RDF to sign up :)
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tantek
well he's not signed up as anyone's apprentice either
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tantek
did he say he's coming to IndieWebCampUK, or just to Brighton (perhaps for dConstruct?)
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tommorris
Henry Story is an awesome guy. But, yes, selfdogfood.
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tantek
tommorris - I've seen him get quite angry when RDF is criticized
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tantek
otherwise, in-person conversations are civil
tpinto joined the channel
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tantek
and yeah, selfdogfood is essentially the answer to anyone who has "a proposal"
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tantek
hmm, IndieWebCampUK is not listed in the Brighton Digital Festival: http://www.brightondigitalfestival.co.uk/events/?filter_dates=7,8
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tantek
just asked aral, adactio, gjones to see about taking care of that
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tommorris
selfdogfooding is essential precisely because we've already got an absolute morass of specs.
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neuro`
+1 tommorris
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neuro`
tantek: from what he wa saying, he would come with xtof and other French people.
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@smarimc
@timmaughan @PaulGrahamRaven afraid not - will be at IndieWebCamp over the weekend. Will you still be there on Friday? /cc @justinpickard
(twitter.com/_/status/373881531120754688)
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tantek
neuro` that doesn't make sense - xtof is not signed up either - and he knows very much how to edit the wiki.
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tantek
so… "he would come …" to what?
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aaronpk
of course you have to sign in to see it :) (anybody else here is welcome to take a look as well, it works with any indieauth sign-in)
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tantek
and what other French people, anyone signed upon the wiki?
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tantek
aaronpk - beautiful selfdogfooding :)
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tantek
nice draft and auth header
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tantek
that's worthy of screenshotting and posting
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tantek
to the web sign-in use cases page
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tantek
aaronpk - restate your headlines with *your* point, not Arals
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tantek
each headline of yours should be a summary snippet of your conclusion, not Aral's issue
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tantek
for each point
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tantek
and before each blockquote you can say something like "Aral wrote:" to clarify the context
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tantek
attributing each quote helps readability, and in-context if you jump/scroll inside the post
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tantek
e.g. this is good: "The enthusiast-consumer hybrid"
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tantek
example of your headlines with *your* point, not Arals
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tommorris
interesting that you bring up hashtags. I was on the train last night and drunk people were talking about hashtags. I was kind of drunk and pointed out that I know the guy who invented hashtags. They asked if he'd made millions out of it.
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tommorris
They were using them in conversation. "She was talking about her boyfriend and I was hashtag-notinterested."
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tantek
reaches "Fitting the needs of consumers" and notices some familiar text from IRC :)
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tantek
this is good text aaronpk
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tantek
also about URLs. easy to remember short domains / URLs are now *replacing* (rather than supplanting) phone numbers in advertisements, billboards, TV shows etc.
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tommorris
telephone numbers are just routing infrastructure that's not been properly abstracted.
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tantek
tommorris see above about phone numbers as IP addresses.
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neuro`
tantek: I'm only repeating what was discussed last night.
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tantek
but they were originally designed to be remembered
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tantek
the 7 digits thing (in the US at least)
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neuro`
Well, I'm off, time to send the kids to bed and cook.
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tantek
originally, most people you called were in your area code and you didn't need to remember 10 digits. people *did* remember 7.
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tantek
(see plenty of psych studies on 7 +/- 2 etc.)
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tantek
(which of course in the past ten years have been redone and are now more like 5 +/- 2)
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tantek
(there are theories about shorter attention spans, multitasking hurting memory, tl;dr etc.)
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tommorris
well, and there's a difference between 7 digits and the now 11 digits for UK phone numbers.
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tommorris
Of course, unlike IP, the telephone network in this country has managed to actually deal with number exhaustion.
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tantek
ironically
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tantek
phone companies are better at recycling numbers, they've been doing it for a much longer time.
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@t
@aral glad you're #ownyourdata blogging :) Counter-examples for you: Consumer OSS: #Firefox #Chrome ... http://tantek.com/2013/243/t2/ownyourdata-examples-oss-firefox-chrome
(twitter.com/_/status/373889935503544320)
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tantek
aaronpk - hope that's not stealing too much thunder, I figure the longer explanations you quoted in your blog post will add more punch.
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tantek
aaronpk - citation for "Tim Berners-Lee also said the same thing about HTML" (note hyphenation of his last name also)
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tantek
Tim Berners Lee also said the same thing about HTML
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tantek
oops mis-copy/paste
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tantek
(goodness why are we still arguing this 10 years later?)
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tantek
is going out for a run and a snack. will monitor the logs via web. :)
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barnabywalters
hm, I seem to be replying to people much more recently
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barnabywalters
I wonder if it’s a side effect of making note posting feel much faster
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neuro`
barnabywalters: probably. The tool often helps the production.
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@TrsstProject
Happy to say we are completely compatible with this vision for the #indieweb. @veganstraightedge https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf
(twitter.com/_/status/373915567448526848)
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@swpax
RT @TrsstProject: Happy to say we are completely compatible with this vision for the #indieweb. @veganstraightedge https://medium.com/indieweb-thoughts/9d0e36524dbf
(twitter.com/_/status/373915780087152642)
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@aral
On evolving IndieAuth — a few thoughts on how we can improve the user experience. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/on-evolving-indieauth/
(twitter.com/_/status/373918955095982080)
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@iaincollins
RT @aral: On evolving IndieAuth — a few thoughts on how we can improve the user experience. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/on-evolving-indieauth/
(twitter.com/_/status/373920279489024000)
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@Arty2
RT @aral: On evolving IndieAuth — a few thoughts on how we can improve the user experience. http://aralbalkan.com/notes/on-evolving-indieauth/
(twitter.com/_/status/373920362095853569)
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@TrsstProject
Happy to say we are completely compatible with this vision for the #indieweb also. @davewiner https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/349109119cee
(twitter.com/_/status/373920822122917889)
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@Raaphorst
RT @TrsstProject: Happy to say we are completely compatible with this vision for the #indieweb also. @davewiner https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/349109119cee
(twitter.com/_/status/373924239847718912)
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barnabywalters
I’m just going to leave that there and go to bed
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barnabywalters
I suspect Tantek will have a fun time ripping it to shreds later
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barnabywalters
It made me pretty angry
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barnabywalters
goodnight #indiewebcamp
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Loqi
buenas noches
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neuro`
G'night barnabywalters
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neuro`
Must admit I had a "TT;DR" reaction
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neuro`
too trollish, didn't read
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tantek
neuro` I don't think Aral's post is trollish at all. I think he is asking reasonable questions.
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tantek
It's up to us to provide easily findable more obvious answers to these questions.
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters Aral doesn't intend to be trollish or make you angry. He's genuinely trying to improve usability. His ideas may not necessarily have merit for doing so, however the motivation and method (fewer steps) are right on.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
so let's take some points, point by point
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tantek
> this is not a straightforward process
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tantek
This is a good point. Any explanation of how to use IndieAuth needs to start with a 1-2 sentence summary. No more. Compare with: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/auth/sign-twitter
smus joined the channel
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tantek
(how Twitter sign-in works and how to set it up)
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tantek
Also compare with http://blog.facebook.com/blog.php?post=41735647130 - How Facebook Connect works and how to set it up / use it.
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tantek
> Signing in is hard to do
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tantek
Also true. And has been challenging identity folks for decades.
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tantek
> The biggest problem with the process is that it breaks the user’s flow.
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tantek
True but for a different reason. Security UX tests have shown that the bounce somewhere and bounce-back web UI flow is much more vulnerable to phishing attacks.
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tantek
(originally studied as perhaps the biggest UX problem with OpenID)
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tantek
I don't have the citation to the study offhand, but a colleague of Rohit Khare did it (he may have the citation).
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tantek
continuing:
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tantek
> The user wants to sign in and we are telling them to go away and edit a web page on their own server.
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tantek
Same would be true if the user didn't have an email address (which used to be true in the 1990s), or didn't have a cell phone number (which also used to be in the 1980s).
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tantek
We know we're actively building the indie*web* and thus, web-native identity is a core part of that.
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tantek
> Even if the user has their own server, they may not want to add the provided markup to it to expose their social networks, email address, or phone number.
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tantek
His assertion about "may now want to … expose their social networks" is false. the default behavior of people with their own websites is to openly link to their social network profiles. This is the existing emergent behavior that RelMeAuth, and the Web Sign-in experience, was built-upon.
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tantek
However, not want to expose email address is true in more cases than not, (there are exceptions).
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www.sandeep.io
edited /business-models (+52) "Added Patronage (Gittip)"
(view diff)
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tantek
Also, not want to expose phone number - also true in more cases than not (also has a few exceptions).
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tantek
I've thought about wanting to setup SMS based IndieAuth on my domain, but only expose the link to requests from the indieauth server. So if there were some way to my server to know the request was coming from indieauth.com, then my server could give it more info. aaronpk may have ideas on how to do this.
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tantek
> this step can be automated by tools that create a page specifically for IndieAuth
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tantek
Yes. That's a logical step. Some sort of home page configuration UI that lets you pick your "other profiles". Actually we've already seen such UIs. Pownce had one. G+ has one.
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tantek
We should probably document those UIs with screenshots on indiewebcamp.com
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tantek
> However, if we can authenticate with an email address or a phone number, why do we need all the web page malarkey to begin with?
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tantek
Because you are not your email address and you are not your phone number. Already explained. Perhaps we need to expound on both of these further in the wiki.
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tantek
> Do we have a way of knowing, via IndieAuth, that you are really the walking bag of mostly water that you claim to be? No.
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tantek
Strawman. no one is claiming to solve the "strong identity of the physical human" problem.
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tantek
And short of bio-auth (hand, thumbprint, retina, etc.) no one will bother - and physical identification has other downsides (can't delegate etc.)
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tantek
> all we are proving is that (a) you have write access to that web site
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tantek
That's all we ask. That you control the website/domain you are self-identifying with. That's it and that's plenty good enough.
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tantek
> we can simply authenticate you using your email address or your phone number
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tantek
We can't trust those. You don't own those. Your email you sharecrop on a silo (or if its your own domain, then just type your own domain, simpler). Your phone # you get from an even smaller # of govt monopoly providers. Also not yours.
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tantek
Rather, we can't trust those for *persistent identity*
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tantek
We *can* trust them for ephemeral authentication of your web identity.
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tantek
They're good enough for that, because you, the user, can swap them out at any time, and no website that uses your web identity depends on your email or phone #.
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tantek
> don’t necessarily depend on the web and web technologies
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tantek
And this is where he lost me :)
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tantek
> To sign in to a site with your email address
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tantek
And that's a solved problem. It's called Persona. http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/persona/
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tantek
> Check your email and follow the link in the email.
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tantek
Wait, you mean, "check your email" and *break your flow* ?
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tantek
I thought he said "The biggest problem with the process is that it breaks the user’s flow"
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tantek
Ahem.
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tantek
(and if there's anything that breaks your flow, it's checking your email and getting distracted by all the crap there)
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tantek
> Boom, you’re in.
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tantek
Nope. More like. Boom, you're now distracted by email hell as you look for an email from a previously unknown sender amongst all the email in your inbox etc.
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tantek
And you're distracted and no longer signing into a website.
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tantek
This is precisely why Persona *avoids* the "Check your email and follow the link in the email" in the normal flow.
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tantek
Only if your email has to use the Persona default provider implementation, and only then on first set-up, do you have to check your email.
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tantek
"Check your email and follow the link in the email" is to be avoided at all costs.
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tantek
> How about with your phone number?
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tantek
You mean that thing where your phone provider is a government monopoly and is already sending everything to the government, long before websites or email providers did?
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tantek
> Enter your phone number on the site.
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tantek
You mean enter a 10-11 digit number you rarely enter *anywhere* else? Sounds about as bad as being asked to enter your IP address.
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tantek
> Check your text messages
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tantek
What if you're in a foreign country? Yeah fine that's probably a 1% edge case ;)
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tantek
> and follow the link in the message
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tantek
What if your phone doesn't have data coverage where you are? Again, foreign country use-case (1%?) or what if you're trying to sign-in on your *laptop*, not on your phone?
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tantek
> Boom, you’re in.
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tantek
Or rather, boom, you've just been overcharged for an international txt message, or intl data roaming charges, or both. Yuck.
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tantek
> allowing you to sign in not as ‘you on Twitter’ or ‘you on Facebook’ but as just ‘you’
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tantek
Yes, exactly. not as 'you on Gmail' or 'you on Yahoomail' or 'you on Insert-Another-Email-Provider-Here'
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tantek
And not as 'you on Verizon/AT&T/T-Mobile/O3/Orange/etc.'
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tantek
you on your own domain name is more indie, more free (as in freedom) than all of those.
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tantek
> does not require us to ask you to … edit an HTML document to add microformats to it.
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tantek
Even baristas can do that - we know this from the dotcom boom of web 1.0.
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tantek
And not microformats* plural, but microformat. rel=me. 6 characters. 7 if you count the additional space.
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tantek
This again however alludes to the aforementioned home page configuration UI goal.
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tantek
Your site should give you a simple usable dashboard that let's you easily one-click add additional profiles for *you* (whether social network / web profiles, email, sms, or perhaps in the future (back to the past style), fax, or maybe even postcard receiving physical address ;)
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tantek
> me.txt
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tantek
anyone who can write a plain text me.txt file and upload it can in practice also edit their index.html and upload it
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tantek
and their index.html already likely has this information, their name, hyperlink to their Twitter, hyperlink to their Facebook, perhaps even summary bio
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tantek
asking them to type it again into a me.txt violates two things:
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tantek
* DRY principle. duplicates the data unnecessarily.
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tantek
* Pave the cowpaths. People already publish their name, twitter, fb, bio on their home page. Better to ask them to simply add rel=me and a class name or two, than ask them to:
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tantek
** create a new file
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tantek
** learn a new mystery format (looks like an easy format, but things rarely stay that way)
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tantek
** copy paste information into it and maybe get it wrong while duplicating (DRY violation symptom)
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tantek
** upload it to the right place
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tantek
me. txt seems like a lot more work - why advocate for the user to do a lot more work?
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tantek
> site would know to look for http://aralbalkan.com/me.jpg
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tantek
I can see some of the appeal for this.
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tantek
I myself have started using /logo.jpg and /photo.jpg on my domain simply as a convention.
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tantek
If that pattern emerges among indie web sites in general, then perhaps we can suggest that as a guideline/fallback in the absence of an h-card
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tantek
> And no HTML necessary.
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tantek
Worse, a *new* file, with a *new* one-off text format.
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tantek
HTML is the new punctuation, the new literacy.
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tantek
If someone complains about learning HTML, send them to https://webmaker.org/about
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tantek
Everyone should learn HTML, just as everyone should learn how to read and write. And people are learning simple HTML.
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tantek
worth writing that into a blog post? or just a series of FAQs under the right topics on IndieWebCamp? thoughts? feedback/corrections? improvements?
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tantek
bio-auth also known as biometrics
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