#indiewebcamp 2013-09-16

2013-09-16 UTC
pfenwick, jgraham909, habitmelon and melvster joined the channel
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@t
Why web protocols should just use HTTP+params and no XML-RPC: Use a <form> to test: http://gist.github.com/adactio/6575229 #webmention (ttk.me t4S32)
(twitter.com/_/status/379401984115482625)
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@ShaneHudson
RT @t: Why web protocols should just use HTTP+params and no XML-RPC: Use a <form> to test: http://gist.github.com/adactio/6575229 #webmention (ttk.me t4S32)
(twitter.com/_/status/379402113228746753)
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@cgiffard
RT @t: Why web protocols should just use HTTP+params and no XML-RPC: Use a <form> to test: http://gist.github.com/adactio/6575229 #webmention (ttk.me t4S32)
(twitter.com/_/status/379402196103622657)
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tantek
ooh - is Loqi watching for mentions of webmention?
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tantek
Adactio's idea, implementation, and code have clearly demonstrated *why* using "just HTTP" has a very concrete benefit
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ShaneHudson
Yep! And it is probably the shortest implementation of all
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tantek
and why using XML-RPC, especially for *simple* things, was a huge complexity mistake
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tantek
if you can't test your web protocol with a web form without javascript, you're doing it wrong.
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tommorris
to be fair, way back when, XML-RPC seemed like the only way.
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tantek.com
edited /OpenID (+17) "/* Setup */ put delegate first, and use "yoursite.example.com" to more clearly indicate it's where your personal URL goes"
(view diff)
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tommorris
the world had had collective amnesia about how the web and HTTP worked and was coming up with crazy reinventions thereof
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tantek
tommorris - "XML-RPC seemed like the only way" - XML was proselytized as "the only way" as religions commonly are.
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tantek
tommorris - why did no one (like TimBL or IETF folks that worked on HTTP) speak-up and point out that XML-RPC had no clothes?
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tantek
or did they speak-up and get summarily ignored by the corporate XML hordes?
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tommorris
and XML-RPC was blissfully simple compared to SOAP and the ever more complex rabbits nest of WS-*
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tantek
ah right that
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tommorris
well, XML-RPC wasn't really corporate, it was Dave Winer
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tommorris
he then took it to Microsoft who then used it to bootstrap SOAP and WS-*
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ShaneHudson
I never got involved with XML-RPC.. used it only once, for something Wordpress related lol
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tommorris
there's some truly mad shit with XML-RPC though. MetaWeblog API sending passwords in XML-RPC in the clear.
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tommorris
No. Just no.
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tommorris
One of the reasons I haven't implemented Metaweblog on my site
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tantek
tommorris - indeed
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tantek
I think that's why metaweblog died
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tantek
as a "standard" API
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tantek
and then all the silos switched to proprietary API endpoints for posting
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tantek
and API standardization took a step backwards
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tommorris
I think MetaWeblog also chokes on blogs without titles.
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aaronpk
tantek: I don't like the "yoursite.example.com" example because it suggests a subdomain of something is needed
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aaronpk
i'll change to "yoursite.com"
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tantek
aaronpk - yeah it's a tradeoff
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tommorris
The amount of time I kept telling people "I want to be able to post things without titles" and was told patronizingly "nobody wants to do that, that's crazy"
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tantek
aaronpk, except yoursite.com *is* a site
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tantek
that's the problem
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aaronpk
that's why example.com exists :/
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tantek
sure, but people don't think of their site as "example.com"
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aaronpk
example.me?
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tantek
did w3c register that?
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tommorris
now there are about 500 million posts made every day without titles to a little site called Twitter.
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aaronpk
i can just put aaronparecki.com in there
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tantek
tommorris - the original Blogger had no "Title" input field.
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tantek
Ev has blogged about this
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ShaneHudson
tantek: Really? I never used Blogger.. but I don't remember seeing blogs without titles!
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tantek
very early
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aaronparecki.com
edited /OpenID (+24) "attempt to clarify openid delegate example"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek: how about that? alternately could use "aaronparecki.com" in the example. I removed multiple references to the domain with english text instead
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tantek
I think I prefer "aaronparecki.com"
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tantek
since that's more obviously a personal site
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tantek
and it's obvious enough that it's someone personal domain that they should replace
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aaronpk
it does make it more obvious that way yea
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tantek
whereas example.me looks like odd boilerplate
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aaronparecki.com
edited /OpenID (+12) "use explicit personal domain in the example"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /OpenID (+17) "/* List of notable websites that consume OpenID */ shorten the heading for easier linking, move longer summary to prose"
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tantek.com
edited /IndieAuth (+187) "/* How to use IndieAuth as an OpenID Delegate */ put delegate first, update from OpenID instructions"
(view diff)
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tantek
tommorris is on a roll
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aaronpk
that was from 2008. he's been on a roll for a long time
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tantek
realizes the dates on those posts
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tantek
I think those are his imported tweets
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ShaneHudson
Could someone add me to the github organisation please? (Mostly just because I'm not in any, so would look good on my profile :P )
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tantek
note that the "syndicated to" links are broken
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tommorris
Yes, a lot of those are imported from Twitter. but some are imported from pre-Twitter
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aaronpk
ShaneHudson: lol sure
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tantek
tommorris - the links to Twitter are broken on some
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tantek.com
edited /OpenID (+47) "/* Setup */ note inside the head element explicitly"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
uh what's your github profile ShaneHudson
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aaronpk
oh just shanehudson
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tommorris
will run a script through to see which ones are broken.
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tantek
all the early ones I clicked on ~ 2008
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ShaneHudson
Yup, almost all of my usernames are my full name. Sometimes just my first name. Never stuck with any aliases or anything
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aaronpk
ShaneHudson: huh, it doesn't give me an option to "publicize membership" for you
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tommorris
files an issue for himself
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ShaneHudson
hmm odd, no worries then
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ShaneHudson
Ah it did work, thanks :)
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ShaneHudson
Ugh. Currently writing a chapter on webrtc and need to explain ICE/STUN/TURN etc. So hard to do without it being boring!
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tantek.com
edited /IndieAuth (-13) "group How To, shorten headings for better/easier linking"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /IndieAuth (+34) "add TOC to make it easier to click on section links and thus get (semi) permalinks to specific sections"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - do you articles support displaying webmentions
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tantek
just tried sending your openid indieauth article, got a 202 back, but didn't show up on the site.
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tantek
er, post
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tantek
also - might as well update http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/09/15/1/indieauth-now-supports-openid-delegation to use aaronparecki.com instead of example.com
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aaronpk
tantek: thanks. no I don't display mentions on my articles yet, still thinking through that. it is logged and will be displayed at /mentions when I get that set up
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tantek
ah ok
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tantek
so adactio has gotten indieweb comments working on his blog posts before you have ;)
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aaronpk
hah yeah
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tantek
really likes the form on his posts for comment submission.
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aaronpk
yeah it's super cool
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tantek
wonders if adactio's older posts have the form too...
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ShaneHudson
it is so stupidly simple. One of those things that make you wonder why it took until 2013 to happen!
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tantek
ShaneHudson it took this long for all the complex shit to fail sufficiently to make room for simpler solutions to emerge
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tantek
like it took long for dinosaurs to go extinct before mammals could emerge and evolve
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ShaneHudson
tantek: Yeah true. I suppose we all got too engrosed in doing complicated things rather than taking the easy route. I know I've been guilty of that many times
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aaronpk
it's easy to over-engineer stuff
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tantek
especially if you work for enterprise
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tantek
or you're clueless about existing solutions
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tantek
and particularly worse if you're both
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ShaneHudson
Same with design. We went through skeumorphism before deciding that simple colours work well enough
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ShaneHudson
I say we.. that can mostly be blamed on Apple lol
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tantek
it's been pretty awesome getting to watch adactio make incremental progress on his webmention receiving implementation
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tantek
I'm particularly glad he blogged the steps he took
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tantek
showed that's *ok* to start with just displaying/linking to URLs of mentions
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ShaneHudson
Yeah definitely!
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aaronpk
ok I know I said i was going to stop coding, but that didn't happen
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ShaneHudson
I'm looking forward to my cms being ready.. will be a good month or so though. It has to be low priority sadly
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tantek
wonders if IndieAuth could also provide information from your hCard to OpenID consumers via OpenID Attribute Exchange
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aaronpk
i was just thinking about h-card + indieauth stuff today
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ShaneHudson
I'm watching a Steve Wozniak video.. has he taken any interest in indie web? I imagine it is something he would like
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tantek
ShaneHudson - ask the first question first
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ShaneHudson
tantek: What do you mean?
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tantek
ShaneHudson - what's his personal site?
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ShaneHudson
woz.org, I think?
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@aaronpk
Well so much for that. Now if you send me an SMS with "ping" you'll get an auto-reply with my location... #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/09/15/2/indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/379419977482137600)
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aaronpk
heh let's see how many SMSs that results in
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ShaneHudson
aaronpk: hah, very well done!
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aaronpk
I wonder how quickly I'll have to whitelist that feature
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aaronpk
tantek: I did your trick with replying to myself there. works on my site + twitter!
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tantek
aaronpk - awesome!
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tantek.com
created /welcoming (+792) "stub with common things to say to be welcoming to new folks"
(view diff)
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tantek
since we're getting new people nearly everyday - just a page of notes for folks who've been here to provide guidance on welcoming new people
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aaronpk
great idea
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caseorganic
fantastic
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tantek
I've been doing most of these off the top of my head, so I figured I might as well export my mental script ;)
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tantek
continues to replicate his brainstorms and behavioral patterns to the wiki.
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aaronpk
pretty soon we can replace tantek with a small shell script
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ShaneHudson
Great idea :)
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tantek
caseorganic, remember our conversation about cloning ourselves? ;)
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caseorganic
tantek: yes
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caseorganic
tantek: my friend anselm was having a meetup on bots recently
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ShaneHudson
Right I best be off to bed.. almost 3am! Goodnight all :)
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Loqi
night night
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tantek
I need to finish packing
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tantek
didn't get to finish updating the microformats wiki with parsing meetup discussions
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caseorganic
tantek: i get the same questions mostly from people about cyborg anthro, so i wanted to allow short scripts to be given to users that asked questions. the dialogues/texts would be based on keywords
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aaronpk
ah yea was curios about that
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caseorganic
tantek: there could be a welcome bot that welcomes new people and gives them info
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caseorganic
in case no one is in the channel
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tantek
caseorganic - a welcoming bot feels less friendly
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tantek
than humans
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caseorganic
tantek: it is
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tantek
because with humans - we have relationship memory
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tantek
typical bots don't
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caseorganic
tantek: yes - and the bot would also have to tell us that they interacted with a new person
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tantek
because we have relatioship memory, we invest emotionally in human-human interactions
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aaronpk
i stil want to make a welcome bot for the #geoloqi channel. people often drop in asking "anybody there"? and I want to make it so that if nobody answers in a short time gives a friendly response
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tantek
and because we invest emotionally in those interactions, we invest indirectly in the context of those interactions, this channel
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tantek
I'd rather help make it easier for humans to generally be welcoming
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caseorganic
aaronpk: it would make sense for the geoloqi channel - we're not there all the time and people often need help
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tantek
than write a welcome bot
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tantek
I'd rather write culture software than bot software
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tantek
It scales better emotionally
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tantek.com
edited /welcoming (+177) "add more question explanation, bold questions/statements to new folks"
(view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+197) "add screenshots of composing interface per shaners' request"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - screenshot of the "mini post UI" would be good too!
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aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+98) "re-prioritizing itches"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - we need a "HTTP" version of this: http://i.qkme.me/3pevg4.jpg
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tantek
(re: protocols)
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aaronpk
wow that image is surprisingly hard to find
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Loqi
who, me?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+107) "add mini note ui"
(view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+2) "cyrillic з"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
debates changing the page name to pзk and adding a redirect
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:p3k-logo.png]]""
(view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+29) "add placeholder logo"
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tantek
aaronpk - please don't (change name to include cyrillic char)
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tantek
it's an antipattern to mix script chars like that
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tantek
commonly used by phishing sites
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tantek
so much so that there are some algorithms that look for that (mixed script words) as a sign of shenanigans
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aaronpk
hah ok
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tantek
has no idea what wiki page to document that on
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shaners
tantek: go to sleep, dummy.
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tantek
can't sleep, still packing
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shaners
looks like you're typing ;)
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aaronpk
my packing usually involves at least 50% keystrokes
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aaronpk
delicious is still a thing?
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@matro
RT @t: Why web protocols should just use HTTP+params and no XML-RPC: Use a <form> to test: http://gist.github.com/adactio/6575229 #webmention (ttk.me t4S32)
(twitter.com/_/status/379448987176419328)
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reidab
aaronpk: I can connect to http://aaronparecki.com/ but http://aaron.pk/ is timing out
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reidab
I mention it here, because I was trying to load your post :P
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tantek
confirmed, aaron.pk is also timing out for me
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peat
It loaded for me about 30 minutes ago. Sorry for busting it, guys.
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neuro`
Good morning
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aaronpk
reidab: oops thanks
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aaronpk
ooh the indiewebcamp wiki is on the same server as aaron.pk
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aaronpk
that's my old server i'm trying to move off of
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aaronpk
was able to reboot the server from my phone while I was out at a bar
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aaronpk
"... while Facebook is quietly and methodically building out this vision with massive partners, the standards community is busy squabbling about naming the open alternative."
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jschweinsberg.de
edited /IRC_People (+60) "Added myself"
(view diff)
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@kongroove
RT @t: Why web protocols should just use HTTP+params and no XML-RPC: Use a <form> to test: http://gist.github.com/adactio/6575229 #webmention (ttk.me t4S32)
(twitter.com/_/status/379506478480359424)
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@new_wp_plugins
New #wordpress plugin: IndieAuth- http://wordpress.org/plugins/indieauth/ An IndieAuth plugin for WordPress
(twitter.com/_/status/379545967944429569)
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@tech88tech
RT @new_wp_plugins: New #wordpress plugin: IndieAuth- http://wordpress.org/plugins/indieauth/ An IndieAuth plugin for WordPress
(twitter.com/_/status/379548769135910912)
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@kevinbeynon
@adactio Um... should the original author or the responder consider truncating the #webmention response? :/ #webmentiongraffiti
(twitter.com/_/status/379558043827982336)
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@barryf
@aaronpk Thanks very much! Please do :) I wanted to pull together the separate #indieweb components I'd read about in one place.
(twitter.com/_/status/379567158021607424)
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@kevinbeynon
@adactio What if there was a 'webmention text' that a responder could provide to sites that displayed less content? Too messy?
(twitter.com/_/status/379574810742779904)
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ShaneHudson
oops wrong window
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@meyerweb
Trying to set up IndieAuth, getting “Parameter "profile" must be one of the rel=me links in the site specified in the "me" parameter”. Wha?
(twitter.com/_/status/379599855586246659)
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@KaraGould85
RT @meyerweb: Trying to set up IndieAuth, getting “Parameter "profile" must be one of the rel=me links in the site specified in the "me" pa…
(twitter.com/_/status/379599923161100288)
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@nicolas2fr
IndieWebCamp Uk Brighton, les photos dans le cadre du projet #LeBateau http://www.nicolas-bermond.com/?p=1816 cc @indiewebcamp @xtof_fr
(twitter.com/_/status/379604046174093313)
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Loqi
[@meyerweb] Figured out my IndieAuth problem
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Loqi
had to force a re-scan to capture working 'me' URL after fixing another problem. +@aaronpk (http://twtr.io/cf439N9_S8)
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@meyerweb
I really dig IndieAuth (https://indieauth.com/). Would love to see the process be more human-first when things go wrong.
(twitter.com/_/status/379606599720923136)
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@ericbollens
RT @meyerweb: I really dig IndieAuth (https://indieauth.com/). Would love to see the process be more human-first when things go wrong.
(twitter.com/_/status/379608441892765697)
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@Kuzeko
RT @meyerweb: I really dig IndieAuth (https://indieauth.com/). Would love to see the process be more human-first when things go wrong.
(twitter.com/_/status/379613229741121537)
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@aaronpk
@meyerweb Thanks! Yes please feel free to make suggestions. Writing error messages is hard! Now that you can log... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/09/16/1/indieauth
(twitter.com/_/status/379625933998551040)
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@marsi
.@meyerweb https://indieauth.com/ is a nice concept, but how is authentication without secure connections (SSL/TLS) even remotely secure?
(twitter.com/_/status/379641898639425537)
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habitmelon
IndieWeb uses SSL though, <link rel="openid.server" href="https://indieauth.com/openid">
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habitmelon
s/Web/Auth
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Loqi
habitmelon meant to say: IndieAuth uses SSL though, <link rel="openid.server" href="https://indieauth.com/openid">
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aaronpk
yeah indieauth uses ssl, but doesn't enforce that sites using it use ssl
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habitmelon
So suppose an RP that doesn't enforce SSL gets an OAuth token (or some other authorization), could that be intercepted?
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aaronpk
yes. but it's not an oauth token, it doesn't actually give access to anything
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aaronpk
I have a way that should prevent that situation, but haven't implemented it yet
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aaronpk
the way it would work is when you first send the user to indieauth.com/auth?me.... you also generate a "nonce" parameter and include it.
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aaronpk
then indieauth redirets back to the RP with the auth code like normal
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aaronpk
but then to validate the auth code and retrieve the domain name of the person that belongs to, the RP would also have to include the same nonce value in the request to /verify
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aaronpk
the key is that the nonce is only ever sent over an SSL connection to https://indieauth.com
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bret
aaronpk: awesome work yesterday!
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aaronpk
bret: thanks! i'm pretty excited about it!
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bret
is there a hacker news announcement I can vote up?
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aaronpk
i have a post on my site taht could be submitted
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peat
... I did a quick writeup on the update as well
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peat
it's specific to the deprecation of myopenid, though. http://peat.org/2013/09/15/replacing-myopenid/
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aaronpk
awesome!
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peat
Regarding the security of third party auth, this is a pretty decent list of attack opportunities against OpenID. https://sites.google.com/site/openidreview/issues
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bret
it just occurred to me as well, indieauth is now compatible with smallest federated wiki via open id
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aaronpk
heh "Account recovery that's merely dependent on email access should be unacceptable for any OP."
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aaronpk
in other words, every site ever
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peat
... it turns out that computers are insecure.
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aaronpk
mostly it's the meat in front of the computer that's insecure
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peat
What are you saying about me?
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peat
(rimshot)
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aaronpk
Loqi knows
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peat
pets Loqi.
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Loqi
yeah!
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habitmelon
I'm not insecure (nervously seeks approval of surrounding humans)
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aaronpk
gives loqi a security
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Loqi
gives back the security
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peat
Heh.
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aaronpk
ohai reddit
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@REDDITSPAMMOR
#reddit How to replace MyOpenID with IndieAuth for OpenID delegation: submitted by peat [link] [comment] http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1migah/how_to_replace_myopenid_with_indieauth_for_openid/ #rulez
(twitter.com/_/status/379657868162908160)
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bret
aaronpk, I submited your post it to hackernews as well
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bret
"IndieAuth: A modern replacement to MyOpenID"
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@reddit4devs
http://t.co/YP41w5unoc How to replace MyOpenID with IndieAuth for OpenID delegation
(twitter.com/_/status/379660883699724288)
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bret
what is a yubico?
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pdurbin
yubico key. some hardware security thing
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@pfefferle
@edsu the webmention plugin only sends and receives mentions it adds no markup to your theme.
(twitter.com/_/status/379677725965172736)
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shaners
aaronpk: wrt to eric meter's rel-me error / re-scan fix, could indieauth automatically re-scan once if no rel-mes are found?
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aaronpk
i suppose it shouldn't cache an empty list
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shaners
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 227 karma
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shaners
is anyone marking up a place/location of a post?
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shaners
i.e., i wrote this post/photo/whatever while at Sisters Coffee.
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aaronpk
note quite the example you were looking for probably
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shaners
my issue is that i'm gonna use h-geo (lat, lon, alt). but i also want to include a name of the "place"
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shaners
it doesn't look like h-adr or h-geo allows p-name
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aaronpk
then you need an h-card
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shaners
i don't want parsers to think that the h-card represents the author
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aaronpk
"p-location h-card"
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shaners
how do i specify that this particular h-card is about
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shaners
where does it say anything about p-location?
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aaronpk
good point
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shaners
i mean, it seems legit. but i couldn't find anything about it. i thought i was going crazy.
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aaronpk
also why are p-latitude, p-longitude and p-alititude listed as properties of the h-entry? those are properties of h-geo
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aaronpk
p-geo*
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shaners
maybe part of the flattening effort of mf2?
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aaronpk
oh? i didn't know that was a thing
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shaners
mf1 had lots of nesting hierarchy
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shaners
more complexity
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aaronpk
sorta, there's something nice about having a well defined "geo" or "adr" format in their own object
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shaners
agreed. when that's all you need.
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shaners
maybe propose pulling them out of h-entry to tantek, et al in #microformats
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shaners
!tell tantek why are p-geo, p-lat-, p-lon, and p-alt on h-entry when they're a part of h-geo?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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shaners
!tell tantek how would you mark up the "this is where i published this post" place NAME? h-geo for lat/lon/alt, but where do i put the name? i don't want parsers to think that an h-card of the place i published from to confuse that as the author. aaronpk suggested ".p-location .h-card", but there's no mention of p-location on http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk
shaners: tantek says adding "p-location h-card" and dropping the geo properties makes sense
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shaners
aaronpk: is this what you're thinking for h-entry p-location markups?
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aaronpk
not quite, take a look here http://aaronparecki.com/events/2013/09/08/1/indiewebcamp-uk-2013 search for p-location
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shanehudson.net
edited /videos_about_the_indieweb (+145) "Added Jeremy's The Web Ahead interview"
(view diff)
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ShaneHudson
Wasn't sure where to put that, being audio. Decided it is more like video than posts :) Wondering if we should merge the pages though?
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@ShaneHudson
@adactio Listening to your Web Ahead interview, love the idea of linking to tweets etc if microformat not used in webmention! @jensimmons
(twitter.com/_/status/379724867287130112)
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aaronpk
i dont' rememeber the thinking behind having the separate video page
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Loqi
tantek: shaners left you a message 3 hours, 8 minutes ago: why are p-geo, p-lat-, p-lon, and p-alt on h-entry when they're a part of h-geo?
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Loqi
tantek: shaners left you a message 3 hours, 5 minutes ago: how would you mark up the "this is where i published this post" place NAME? h-geo for lat/lon/alt, but where do i put the name? i don't want parsers to think that an h-card of the place i published from to confuse that as the author. aaronpk suggested ".p-location .h-card", but there's no mention of p-location on http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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tantek
I'll edit h-entry when I get to my hotel
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tantek
Cc shaners
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tantek
Aaronpk the point behind the video page is that people like watching videos
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tantek
And having to fish for the among text posts is not user friendly.
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tantek
Remember when bnvk was making a big deal about promo videos etc?
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aaronpk
in that case the video page needs thumbnails of the videos and better captions. needs to look less like a list.
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tantek
ShaneHudson: You were there too - at myHotel when bnvk was going off about videos.
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tantek
Aaronpk feel free to add thumbnails.
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aaronpk
i can do that :)
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ShaneHudson
tantek: Oh right, yeah
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tantek
Hey you kids are supposed to have better memories. :)
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@benward
@veganstraightedge I'd like to, would be neat to support webmention, but right now there's no way I could put it in and guarantee stability.
(twitter.com/_/status/379741848950300672)
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@veganstraightedge
@benward No easy war to add .h-entry or webmention?
(twitter.com/_/status/379742025504919552)
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@veganstraightedge
@benward No easy way to add .h-entry or webmention?
(twitter.com/_/status/379742421304606720)
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@benward
@veganstraightedge Adding webmention crawling, parsing, and pinging at our scale can be assumed not to be “easy.”
(twitter.com/_/status/379743923117510656)
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aaronpk
shaners: I think he misunderstood your request
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shaners
aaronpk: i'm clarifying
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aaronpk
shaners: I've heard the "it's hard to make it not break later" argument a few times
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shaners
big companies...
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