#indiewebcamp 2013-09-27

2013-09-27 UTC
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@bethelightwrite #CoverReveal for Riverbend: The Collection is tomorrow! Please #RT and #share! #ebook #series #romanticsuspense #NA #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/383388182420549632)
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jmsmcfrlnd ok, I think I am in indiewebcamp irc channel.
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jmsmcfrlnd I am using irc from yaaic, don't know what to put for ident. thinking I need to read docs.
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tantek tommorris - re: that post of yours "I don't want an app for your media site"
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tantek here's a related article: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31322_3-57324406-256/how-facebook-is-ruining-sharing/
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tantek I'm trying to figure out how to capture this "proprietary app for media site" anti-pattern
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tantek I tried searching for that post and couldn't find it
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tantek perhaps it was someone else that posted it?
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tantek I did find this: http://idontwantyourfuckingapp.tumblr.com/
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tantek related: https://twitter.com/aral/status/204145820008853504
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@aral Any modal message—full-screen or alert—that interrupts user flow to ask them to download your app suffers from #doorslam #ux antipattern.
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tantek and see, I've been calling this the Kanye-UX anti-pattern
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tantek "Imma let you finish, but this native app is the best app ever!"
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abrereton i've got to let you know that you made me laugh out loud
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tantek :)
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poppy i wish i knew how people thought that was a good idea, but i guess there's a lot i don't understand
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poppy xda-developers does it, which boggles the mind
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tantek poppy - they want an icon on your home screen
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poppy tantek: likely, but with xda i'm not sure that makes sense
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bret Kanye-UX XD
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bret Ima let you get to dat site, but we spend way to much money on this shitty app to not telly you about it
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bret spent*
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bret one thing I found out when doing my own site. Mobile browsers are actually super duper fast if you don't like 10Mb of JS that has nothing to do with UX
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tantek yes
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bret load*
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bret faster than native apps that have to pull in internet data
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bret like the iOS app store app... loading..
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bret http://tech.slashdot.org/story/13/09/25/2251222/eraser-law-will-let-california-kids-scrub-online-past
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bret interesting
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abrereton http://l.yimg.com/ea/img/-/130617/shane_warne_instagram_18rt5ev-18rt5m2.jpg
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abrereton wow talk about wrong window and *really* out of context
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cweiske self-hosting git repositories is needed, too: http://petewarden.com/2013/09/27/why-openheatmap-is-banned-from-github/
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@svenkaemper #IndieAuth: Sign in with your domain name – https://indieauth.com (twitter.com/_/status/383495056851996672)
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@kcpr RT @svenkaemper: #IndieAuth: Sign in with your domain name – https://indieauth.com (twitter.com/_/status/383496753258835968)
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@bethelightwrite It's #CoverReveal day! Check it out! Please #rt and #share. http://andreagoodson.wordpress.com/ #indieauth #na #romanticsuspense #NA (twitter.com/_/status/383559800618881024)
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@danamason06 RT @bethelightwrite: It's #CoverReveal day! Check it out! Please #rt and #share. http://andreagoodson.wordpress.com/ #indieauth #na #romanticsuspense #NA (twitter.com/_/status/383560358935687168)
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@share_rt RT @bethelightwrite: It's #CoverReveal day! Check it out! Please #rt and #share. http://andreagoodson.wordpress.com/ #indieauth #na #romanticsuspense #NA (twitter.com/_/status/383560595205005312)
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barnabywalters forget indieweb chess, anyone up for a text-base multiplayer space-themed game using cuneiform chars? proof-of-concept: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SEF9s/
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barnabywalters 𒁏 𒀸
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@michelv Je viens de lire la phrase suivante: "forget indieweb chess, anyone up for a text-base multiplayer space-themed game using cuneiform chars?" (twitter.com/_/status/383582808415141888)
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michel_v I don't even :)
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barnabywalters michel_v: lol :D
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michel_v are these cuneiform squares, or are they really exotic characters that vanilla OS X can't display?
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barnabywalters they’re really exotic chars
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barnabywalters if you view them on my site, I loaded the required font in
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barnabywalters it’s this awesome old language which looks just like spaceships :)
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michel_v so, http://blog.chron.com/sciguy/files/2013/08/mf-130103-2814287094487938560.png
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barnabywalters anyone else see trailed.io?
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barnabywalters great to see others having the same thoughts about owning comments and responses on your blog
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barnabywalters pity they decided to add an unnecessary layer of siloed data over that though
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barnabywalters even if has rather a nice interface
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barnabywalters I’ll ping them about indieweb commenting, see if they’d be up for adding mf2 support
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barnabywalters it would make their UX way better
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barnabywalters also a potential POSSE destination if anyone decides it has enough value to automate
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barnabywalters it’s a pity everything in their UI works with js and no pushState — I like permalinks
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barnabywalters so I submitted aral’s post about indieauth and my followup: http://trailed.io/posts/524597e9b8ada10200000008
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barnabywalters interesting that their post frame doesn’t indicate anywhere that this is a reply to something
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFEn4/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFEn4/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFEn4/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFEn4/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context (pingback)
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cweiske where is sandeepshetty?
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cweiske haven't seen him around this week
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barnabywalters yeah, haven’t seen him for a while :( I hope he’s okay
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barnabywalters last post on http://www.sandeep.io/ is 18th sept
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cweiske wondering when webmention 0.2 is comint out
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barnabywalters whenever people start using it ;)
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cweiske there are ~15 issues open
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cweiske some three months
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barnabywalters which repo is the canonical one again? indieweb/ or converspace/
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cweiske webmention.org links converspace
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pfefferle converspace
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barnabywalters https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/4
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barnabywalters some of these issues sound like they’re closed
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pfefferle this was reopened
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pfefferle would be nice to finally move the repo to go on in developement even if someone is on vacation or somewhere
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barnabywalters there are a bunch of issues which it looks like sandeep fixed with a5e6785 but didn’t manually close — I’m going through and closing them
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barnabywalters so at least there’s less to think about :)
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barnabywalters https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/8 is still a source of contention so leaving
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pfefferle oh, you are a commiter at that repo? nice!
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barnabywalters yeah I think sandeep made me a member of the converspace org ages ago
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pfefferle the almighty barnabywalters :)
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barnabywalters heh
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barnabywalters https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/12 is a longer term thing
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barnabywalters is this what GH milestones are for? issues we want resolved for a particular version?
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barnabywalters aw what, I can’t log in to wikipedia using openid?
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@laurakalbag @benhowdle that was my first thought when I read about it! Same goal (and not competing). You could be #indieweb heroes! ;) (twitter.com/_/status/383610424702566400)
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tommorris barnabywalters: Alas no.
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pfefferle i think issue 12 shouldn't be part of v0.2
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barnabywalters pfefferle: I’m not as up to date with webmention issues as you, can you go through and assign the v0.2 ones to that milestone?
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barnabywalters I made the milestone, just not sure which issues it applies to :)
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pfefferle i am no admin
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barnabywalters pfefferle: hm, maybe I can make you one
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barnabywalters or just let me know which issues here
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tommorris barnabywalters: Bit too much legacy there. OpenID doesn't work great with Wikimedia's SUL (Single Unified Login) system. When you log into Wikipedia, you are actually logging into about 700 sites at the same time.
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pfefferle i think all except #12 and #15
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barnabywalters okay, adding
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pfefferle but #4 isn't working without sandeepshettys help
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pfefferle he is the owner of the domain i think
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barnabywalters okay, added a bunch of issues to v0.2
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barnabywalters currently closing #15
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pfefferle +1
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barnabywalters hmm, trackback is more similar to webmention than I thought
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barnabywalters apart from not specifying the target URL, and overloading with a bunch of untrustable on-the-wire data about the post
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pfefferle yes… had the same thought some days ago…
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barnabywalters webmention is simpler
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pfefferle and trackback has some strange inline rdf relicts
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barnabywalters better discovery, simpler semantics, no unnecessary on-the-wire data
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barnabywalters oh, and the server has to return XML
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barnabywalters pfefferle: at http://archive.cweiske.de/trackback/trackback-1.2.html, LOL at “Simple RDF”
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pfefferle yes
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barnabywalters apparently 450 chars over 9 lines is simple :/
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cweiske compared to SOAP..
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pfefferle sample rdf :)
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barnabywalters webmention > trackback/pingback > SOAP
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barnabywalters or, if measuring line count, webmention < TB < SOAP ;)
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pfefferle ;)
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tommorris TrackBack's RDF stuff is pure nonsense. RDF-XML inside HTML comments
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tommorris That's like the conditional comments of RDF
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tommorris It does nothing at all. No clients consume it.
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barnabywalters tommorris: wow
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tommorris It's worse than conditional comments. It's cargo-cult semantics.
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barnabywalters closed #15 with https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Linkback&oldid=574752320 — please review cweiske pfefferle tommorris
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barnabywalters is new to this wikipedia thing
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barnabywalters apart from some spam removal
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barnabywalters looking closer at trailed.io, they’re actually kinda breaking the web by wrapping it in their chrome and giving everything new permalinks which don’t link back to the originals with rel-canonical
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pfefferle "HTTP Link: header or link element on the linked page" is the ":" right?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: hm, probably unnecessary
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pfefferle the rest is fine for me
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pfefferle oh, and you have to link this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebMention (camelCase)
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barnabywalters good catch
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barnabywalters okay, fixed
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pfefferle (Y)
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pfefferle how should we handle the last issues?
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barnabywalters they’re roughly split into bureaucracy, simple copy fixes and contentious issues
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barnabywalters we need sandeep around to do the bureaucracy stuff (moving repo)
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barnabywalters simple text fixes just need someone to add an initial dump and then people to improve it
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barnabywalters contentious issues need discussion and resolution
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pfefferle i think #22 and #9 need some more diskussions
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pfefferle #8 seems to be fixed!?!
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pfefferle as mentioned in his last commit comment
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barnabywalters it’s a contentious issue
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barnabywalters sandeeps commit says 404 can be used to delete content, indiewebcamp wiki says otherwise
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pfefferle ah ok
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barnabywalters see also http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted-404-discussion
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pfefferle we definitively should diskuss about the error part
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barnabywalters IMO this whole deletion thing is overthought, as the updating spec actually covers it
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barnabywalters if there are issues with updating a comment to empty or “this post was deleted” in the wild, then we’ll figure out a solution
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pfefferle me too
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pfefferle lets remove the issue from the 0.2 milestones
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barnabywalters RE errors: are there any fail conditions where machine-readable errors will allow a sender to resolve them automatically?
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barnabywalters or are they only ever used for debugging?
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pfefferle that was cweiskes issue, but he is off now
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barnabywalters e.g. "Specified target URL does not accept webmentions" is a sender error as sandeep pointed out, but making it machine readable isn’t going to allow the implementation to fix it automatically
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pfefferle the problem is, that errors are part of the 0.1 spec… it would be dump to remove them for 0.2 and re-add them perhaps in 0.3… so we should be sure about that...
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pfefferle i mean dumb
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barnabywalters anyone know if cweiske has implemented webmentions anywhere?
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pfefferle no
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pfefferle not sure
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barnabywalters we should apply the selfdogfooding filter to potentially unproductive issue threads too
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Loqi it is probable
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barnabywalters sure thing Loqi
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pfefferle :)
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barnabywalters “if you haven’t implemented the technology on your own site, others are allowed to ignore complaints or suggestions”
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pfefferle true
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pfefferle the same with #22
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barnabywalters https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/19 is nice but breaks chances for back compatibility
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pfefferle not really, because we introduce rel-webfinger instead of the uri
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barnabywalters so BC implementations can run the regex then optionally check for the old rel? makes sense I suppose
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barnabywalters the whole strict regex thing seems to make things easier for consumers at the expense of publishers
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pfefferle and that is why we should add a discovery chapter https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/23
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barnabywalters which is a known anti-pattern
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pfefferle to describe it more detailed and add a mention
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pfefferle the descovery chapter?
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barnabywalters what implementations would benefit from not having to parse HTML?
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barnabywalters all webmention implementations I can think of do so anyway to get mf2 data out
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barnabywalters so requiring a strict syntax just makes things more difficult for publishers
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barnabywalters going to write this up into a reply note and add to the thread
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pfefferle but in that case it is marginal
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pfefferle bbiab
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barnabywalters jschweinsberg: great to see <action> markup on your site :)
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barnabywalters afternoon benwerd
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jschweinsberg barnabywalters: Yeah, I thought it would be a good thing to add. :)
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barnabywalters know if anyone has implemented full reply-contexts in idno?
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFGod/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (pingback)
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@kevinmarks @tcarmody @asimone as does tumblr, but doing it not just within one system is harder #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/383634607473577984)
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barnabywalters RE webmention errors, adactio’s human-friendly implementation has changed my thoughts futher
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barnabywalters being able to test webmention with forms as per http://adactio.com/journal/6495/ is too good a thing to miss out on
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barnabywalters so ideally success and error pages should always be HTML pages with friendly copy on
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tantek barnabywalters - here's the short focused form of the key point: http://tantek.com/2013/258/t2/web-protocols-should-use-http-params-no-xml
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barnabywalters afternoon tantek — thanks
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tantek hi jernst!
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tantek barnabywalters - adactio says he just has a check in his code
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tantek if the webmention comes from his own site (e.g. via the form), the return result does a redirect back to the source page
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tantek otherwise it handles it as per usual
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barnabywalters interesting
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aaronpk barnabywalters: maybe we should start using the indieweb fork of webmention for issues
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah, probably a good idea
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bret wow cool!
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barnabywalters I’m also sending pull reqs to the converspace repo, should probably have forked the indieweb one
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barnabywalters argh github
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bret what has sandeepshetty been up to? he was around so much for a while now I never see him :(
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aaronpk barnabywalters: feel free to re-open issues on the indieweb fork, we can keep going there
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aaronpk barnabywalters: also webmention.org is hosted on github pages, so if you can push to the gh-pages fork on converspace it'll update the site :)
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benwerd barnabywalters: sorry for slow reply
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benwerd nobody's doing full reply-context in idno as far as I know
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barnabywalters benwerd: np, thanks :)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: bleargh, so much copy+pasting. RE GH pages good point. not sure I want to mess with it too much without sandeep’s signoff
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barnabywalters he does own the domain after all
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jernst_ hi tantek, sorry missed your hi earlier
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aaronpk https://github.com/IQAndreas/github-issues-import
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aaronpk of course the real solution would be to get sandeep to just move the repo over to the indieweb org. then all the issues would be transferred with it.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: huh yeah that would be optimal
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aaronpk but that requires him to do it
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barnabywalters I’m just going to push the work-in-progress v0.2 to webmention.org
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barnabywalters it’s more up to date, better licensed and has a link back to the old version
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bret is that on his domain?
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aaronpk we've got the updated error response stuff in 0.2 right?
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barnabywalters ah, maybe not — that’s still under discussion
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aaronpk oh yeah it does
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aaronpk er nvm
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bret maybe we should put it on a path if sandeep hasn't okayed it yet, and its his domain
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bret webmention.org/0.2
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aaronpk all the versions should probably live at 0.1 and 0.2
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aaronpk with the home page serving the most latest
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tantek sounds reasonable
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barnabywalters that’s how W3C specs work, right?
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barnabywalters I have no idea how to make jeykll do that though
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bret barnabywalters, just make a file called 0.2.md or 0.2.html
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barnabywalters bret: I can just dump a markdown file in there and it’ll convert it to HTML?
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bret let me look
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I don't even think this is jekyll, it's just HTML
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bret i think aaronpk is right, hes using the page generator
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barnabywalters aaronpk: so the GH pages page isn’t dynamically generated?
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bret so just create a folder called 0.2 and put an index.html inside of it
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bret i think that works
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aaronpk oh yeah it's using the page generator cause it's that default theme
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bret and the content is generated off of the readme or something?
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aaronpk https://help.github.com/articles/creating-pages-with-the-automatic-generator
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bret i think you can start messing with the raw html though
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aaronpk yeah
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bret not sure if its the right way to do it but it works
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aaronpk I push stuff up to github pages all the time that's just html stuff
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barnabywalters so I’m not worried about pushing the 0.1 folder, what about the changes to README though? will the GH pages site automatically update?
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bret yes, I think so
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barnabywalters okay, I’m going to give it a go
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bret barnabywalters, actually no, you have to use the page generator again and reload the readme
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barnabywalters argh
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aaronpk you can also just copy/paste stuff into the html file
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aaronpk it's not that fancy
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bret that also works
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aaronpk this repo also uses github pages https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-spec
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barnabywalters github has managed to do something very impressive with gh-pages. they’ve managed to make publishing static HTML complicated
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aaronpk barnabywalters: lol
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aaronpk gh-pages by itself is very simple. any html files in the gh-pages branch are published.
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aaronpk but it's all the stuff around generating that html that's complicated
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bret there are a ton of subtleties with the generators yeah
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barnabywalters not sure I can even access the generator UI as I’m not an admin
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barnabywalters I’m going to leave it until we can move the repo to the indieweb org
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barnabywalters did you guys see trailed.io?
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bret no
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bret hrrm
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barnabywalters thoughts earlier: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-09-27#t1380292610
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bret barnabywalters i think you hit the nail on the head, the way the tool works is interesting
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bret you can just overlay on top of whatever you use
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aaronpk i'm going to have to move/delete the indieweb fork in order to make room for sandeep to move his
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aaronpk ok, indieweb fork deleted so sandeep can transfer ownership
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pfefferle Nice
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aaronpk left a comment, hopefully he sees it https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/4#issuecomment-25264828
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pfefferle aaronpk: What do you think about making the gh-pages the default master for the webmention spec and Jekyll for rendering the HTML
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pfefferle Like willnorris did with the webfinger page https://github.com/webfinger/webfinger.net
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aaronpk that could work
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aaronpk would certainly make it easier to publish
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pfefferle Indeed
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aaronpk github builds jekyll sites automatically, yea?
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pfefferle And you can also add canonical urls for the different specs
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pfefferle Yes
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bret i could set that up
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pfefferle Webfinger.net is exactly the branch
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aaronpk bret: if you want to take a stab at it, you can do it in your own fork of the repo, then we can pull in the changes later
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bret which one should i fork?
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aaronpk i deleted indieweb, so sandeep's
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bret err there is only one now huh
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bret ah ok
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aaronpk also once it's moved it'll update the ref automatically
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pfefferle And if you use the gh-pages as master you don't have to copy everything around
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bret aaronpk, let me finish up these tickets for work and then ill get started
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aaronpk cool
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bret has the readme drifted from the markdown readme I wonder?
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bret err html drifted from the markdown
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aaronpk heh, well this will solve that problem
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pfefferle aaronpk: You could do the same for the indieauth spec btw
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cweiske does barnabywalter always publish but reports and comments on his website first?
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bret cweiske, not sure what you are asking?
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cweiske http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFH11/
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cweiske that's a comment to a github issue
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cweiske my question is if he does this for every single comment and bug report
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bret oh hrrmm… i dont know, but aaronpk and him were discussing POSSE to gh issues
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bret a while back
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bret i wonder if they do it through the gh api
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cweiske at least did I get mails from my pingback server that he posted the notes
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jernst_ Slides and videos from the personal clouds gathering this week now on-line, in case anybody is interested: http://personal-clouds.org/wiki/Events:SF2013-09-25
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bret thanks jernst_
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bret ok, going to change buildings and work on the jekyll port
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cweiske may I also return a 200 OK to a webmention request when I already processed it?
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cweiske "202 accepted" should only be for to-be-processed-later requests
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barnabywalters jernst_: thanks for posting those videos+slides
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jernst_ no prob.
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aaronpk pfefferle: yea i should do that
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aaronpk i'll try that later. don't have time to re-shuffle it right now
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barnabywalters well, would you look at that. I was wrong all along
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barnabywalters there is a benefit of using microdata over microformats
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barnabywalters github strips out the class attribute but not all the unnecessarily complicated microdata attrs
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barnabywalters I was hoping I could trick GH into publishing mf data by giving it mf data. apparently not :(
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vrypan Hi. I've written a somehow long piece on how I moved from various CMS engines to a static blog and replaced comments with webmentions. I think it's quite close to the spirit of indieweb. If anyone's interested, http://blog.vrypan.net/2013/09/27/crafting-my-blog/
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aaronpk barnabywalters: that sounds more like a limitation of github than a benefit of microdata
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barnabywalters benwerd: liking the new improved werd.io URLs — much cleaner :)
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benwerd barnabywalters: thanks!
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barnabywalters aaronpk: very true. although I can see why it’s safer to allow attributes which won’t affect styling
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barnabywalters the GH API is a mixed bag. really easy to post to, loving the basic token auth option
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barnabywalters but response vocabs are really inconsistent. mixing owner/user (author), name/title (always name)
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barnabywalters vrypan: nice post! great to see your static site + indieweb comments setup documented
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vrypan Thanks! In the process I wrote https://github.com/vrypan/webmention-tools which is a nice set of "tools" to deal with webmentions in python.
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barnabywalters vrypan: awesome! installing now just for that command line tool
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vrypan I also try to get a text snipet from the source url, by going up the DOM tree and getting the <p> that contains the lin to target.
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vrypan I'm not sure if this is the best way, but it seems to work nicely in practice.
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barnabywalters vrypan: the best way of doing it would be to parse the HTML for microformats and try to find an h-entry
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barnabywalters not sure there’s a mf2 parser for python yet
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vrypan It can probably be don with BeautifulSoup.
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vrypan *done
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vrypan But I'm not sure what to look for :-)
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barnabywalters vrypan: if you want to have a go at making a python mf2 parser the spec is here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
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barnabywalters (I made a PHP one and know python so could probably help out if you’re up for it)
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vrypan I'll let you know if I try. Probablyt will, but I'm not sure when...
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@BarnabyWalters @github any chance you could add #microformats2 h-entry and #indieweb comment markup to issue pages… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFNSs/ (twitter.com/_/status/383719416246321152)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SFNSs/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_markup (pingback)
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi see you in the morning!
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jernst_ hey Loqi, which time zone are you on?
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Loqi yeah!
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aaronpk loqi is in all timezones
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jernst_ this ephemeral being, never sleeps I'm sure, and doesn't know what a morning is either, I think it just picked that phrase up from somewhere
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bret are the github pages templates in their own repo somewhere?
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bret yes!
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bret https://github.com/orderedlist/modernist
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bret more generally https://github.com/blog/1081-instantly-beautiful-project-pages
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bret aaronpk, looking for feedback on how to structure the jekyll site a bit
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bret If we use jekyll, we have to make some decisions about how to deal with the readme vs index page
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aaronpk looks like the best option is to drop the readme
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@veganstraightedge @anildash #indieweb reply context (aka part of federated comments) on other people's sites. E.g., http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/09/21/4/ (twitter.com/_/status/383738252592558080)
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shaners Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 191 karma
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@mcburton .@captain_primate's arguments for open scholarship remind me of the #indieweb movement http://indiewebcamp.com/principles #detroitdh (twitter.com/_/status/383738751199223808)