#indiewebcamp 2013-09-29

2013-09-29 UTC
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bret !tell tantek I looked over Indiemark level 1. I think it looks good! Next time we have newcomers at a hack session, I think I'll try to get them to focus on acheiving indiemark 1. The most difficult part being h-entry
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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caseorganic bret: you up for an indiewebcamp dinner monday in SF?
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caseorganic !tell tantek you up for an indiewebcamp dinner monday in sf?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bret heh :) caseorganic you driving?
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caseorganic bret: yes
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caseorganic bret: lol - no, flying in monday morning for glazed conf
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caseorganic bret: tons of rain here in portland
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bret ack, i know, didnt stop my bbqing though
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bret im afraid I'm not going to make it
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bret have a TA meeting in the morning, bleeehh
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iamshane.com edited /Homesteading (+9) "updated indiemark score table" (view diff)
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@devseo How #xoxofest and #indiewebcamp saved me, in a way. - http://werd.io/entry/5243114abed7de2970c0b2b7/how-xoxofest-and-indiewebcamp-saved-me-in-a-way #socialmedia (twitter.com/_/status/384264388813012992)
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@Rdch97 RT @sevasev: Mau buka usaha webhosting? klik https://www.indieweb.biz/reseller-business.php Diskon 50% selama berlangganan | Hanya untuk 10 order pertama Info: sm… (twitter.com/_/status/384314568778186752)
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@Capucinenet1 RT @MyDataLabs: 1° projet de rentrée pour l'association : traverser la manche pour rejoindre le mouvement #indieweb #ownyourdata http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/384340754643955713)
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Loqi barnabywalters: bret left you a message on 9/28 at 2:54pm: If you have time, would you check out https://github.com/converspace/webmention/pull/26 and see what you think?
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@lchasen rather than failed i would say it is BROKEN RT @rapella: "The Internet Failed." https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/383060147624353793/photo/1 #pcloud #indieweb ht @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/384352092015828992)
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Loqi tantek: bret left you a message on 9/28 at 6:58pm: I looked over Indiemark level 1. I think it looks good! Next time we have newcomers at a hack session, I think I'll try to get them to focus on acheiving indiemark 1. The most difficult part being h-entry
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Loqi tantek: caseorganic left you a message on 9/28 at 7:14pm: you up for an indiewebcamp dinner monday in sf?
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tantek bret - interesting feedback about h-entry - what's difficult about it, and what can we do to make it easier?
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tantek so basically all the arguments that julien51 etc. have made about Atom being preferable to HTML for # of bytes etc. is all bollocks
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Loqi BASICALLY ALL THE ARGUMENTS http://loqi.me/80v
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tantek my home page, with 20 recent entries with hentry and h-entry, WITH a sidebar is about 1/5th the size of the equivalent Atom feed of 20 entries.
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tantek yes, HTML+h-entry is only 20% the size of the equivalent Atom.
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tantek XML feeds and formats are such crap.
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barnabywalters ATOM for notes violates DRY inside a DRY violating format
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barnabywalters DRY violation squared
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barnabywalters for each of your notes, the content is repeated 3x, datetime 2x and URL 2x
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jschweinsberg That
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jschweinsberg Whoops.
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jschweinsberg That's why I use RSS instead of ATOM. A lot of elements are optional.
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jschweinsberg No need to repeat the notes content inside of the title.
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bret tantek, its a relative difficulty. Its not that difficult, but because it involves structure and unfamiliar markup, people applying it the first time to a site would probrably have the spend the longest time reading about it, thinking about how to modify their templates, etc It seems to me. Everything else is super minimal, which is the beauty of level 1: Do these incredibly simple
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bret things to your site and now its indieweb friendly.
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tantek bret - that's good to know. are there any helper tools we could develop to help folks with "their first h-entry" ?
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bret what about that indieready site from this years UK?
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bret gah, what was the url for that again
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jschweinsberg http://indiewebify.me/
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bret thanks jschweinsberg, i think just having a page with all the nessisary info on it it per level would be the easiest start
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aaronpk yes, the validator tools are extremely important, otherwise it's impossible to know if you've completed something
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aaronpk also the actual indiemark page is rather text-heavy, which is good for thoroughness, but not ideal for someone just starting in
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bret that plus pin13 and the json formatter browser extension
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bret makes reading json a joy ^_^
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aaronpk pin13 pretty-prints the JSON already :)
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aaronpk but yea the jsonformatter browser extension is awesome
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bret i *need* the foldy arrows
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bret ;)
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tantek aaronpk - yeah I need to keep editing down the text of IndieMark level and achievement descriptions
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tantek have already edited them down a bunch, but further would be helpful
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tantek bret - the indiewebify validate hCard and hEntry features don't actually work for me
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jschweinsberg tantek: I doesn't work for me, too.
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jschweinsberg It only uses the second microformat for the h-entry validation.
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tantek also - hate the JS-only buttons :(
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barnabywalters tantek: jschweinsberg: bnvk and I are working on improving indiewebify.me
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tantek barnabywalters - immediate fixes - need to update level 1 to test two URLs for h-entry
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tantek per http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark#Level_1 point 3
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tantek could also do a site specific search as well for someone's URL
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barnabywalters tantek: two URLs? what, just give two input fields?
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tantek yes - 2+ posts with h-entry is a requirement for Level 1
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tantek or you could do permalink discovery from a home page
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bnvk ah, yes indiewebify, need to work on some improvements
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bnvk tantek: I'm at a cafe in Brighton right now where you have been before.
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bnvk I really love that feature in 4sq- knowing a friend has been here before
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tantek bnvk - indeed it's a good agregator feature
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barnabywalters bnvk: how do you feel about doing mf finding and validation on the server side? would allow me to move much more quickly as I’ve already implemented a lot of it in PHP before, and would expose some really useful endpoints others could use
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bnvk this particular cafe- The Marwood, is perhaps the most lively and welcoming cafe I've ever been to, world wide
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bnvk barnabywalters: sounds good to me, are you working on that right now?
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barnabywalters bnvk: no, working on a friend’s site now but will make a start this evening
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bnvk ok cool. we should coordinate our efforts so ping me when you're on the task!
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barnabywalters okay, will do
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barnabywalters actually I’m taking an interesting approach to the site I’m working on at the moment
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barnabywalters my friend and I worked through the structure of the site, then I asked him to put together a dropbox folder mirroring the site structure, with photos in, and text files with captions
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tantek wonders if he could include simple web forms on the wiki to test IndieMark various features (rather than depending on JS)
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barnabywalters so now I’m creating a tiny static site generator which looks over what he already did and makes a HTML site out if it
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+480) "/* To Do */ simplify descriptions, make less text" (view diff)
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bnvk tantek: I don't see why simple web forms wouldn't work... but hacking MediaWiki and the UX will be a bit rough
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tantek bnvk - hacking MediaWiki would just be a matter of allowing <form> <input> <button> markup
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aaronpk simple forms on indiewebify.me would be better
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bnvk what about on the displaying of the MF marked up code?
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aaronpk if there's a form on the wiki it's going to have to post to something, what would that be?
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bnvk wouldn't you have load a MF parser and such?
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tantek bnvk - can you add action= to the forms on indiewebify.me and handle them serverside?
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bnvk yep
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tantek aaronpk - it doesn't have to POST, it can simply do a GET to Barnaby's endpoints
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bnvk I could do that... but then would have output the response in some way, right?
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barnabywalters GET /validate-h-card?url=>{url}
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tantek exactly
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bnvk what is the particular aversion to using JS?
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barnabywalters okay, so GET /validate-h-card.html?url=>{url} gives nice HTML output…
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tantek bnvk - the output response is simply the same page with the output for the form that was submitted in place
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barnabywalters and /validate-h-card.json?url=>{url} gives us stuff to use in JS
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tantek bnvk - dependence on JS = fragility
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tantek shit just breaks and doesn't work for all kinds of random reasons
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bnvk tantek: ah, yes, that would be the most straight forward display.
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bnvk it's worth noting the JS up there has not really been tested, nor engineered to handle failures in a nice way
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tantek the short answer to "what output" is the same as if you AJAX the stuff, but just the whole page
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tantek bnvk - exactly, so if you support form submissions, all kinds of stuff automatically works WITHOUT more code, e.g. typing into a field and pressing return
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tantek never understood why developers like to TONS of extra work to reimplement proper form submissions in JS, instead of just doing the SIMPLE work of making it work *just* with HTML in the first place
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aaronpk also more likely to work on more types of devices like from my phone
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tantek bnvk - what's the aversion to proper HTML form markup / submission handling?
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tantek it's *less* work that JS shenanigans
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tantek *than
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bnvk right, but the concept is to sort of "explain" to people how the MF data on their sites "looks" in a status update, reply, profile type way to better communicate how to use said MF data
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tantek bnvk - none of that needs JS
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tantek has anyone else gotten Sandeep's h-reader to work? http://www.sandeep.io/98
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tantek it just returns a blank for my home page
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bnvk writing PHP or JS code- there's still going to be code written to parse + display teh MF data, right?
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aaronpk also when things go wrong (parser crashes on unexpected tokens, etc) it's less likely to be an invisible failure if it's a regular form rather than JS magic
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aaronpk tantek: I think it's expecting an h-feed, rathre than a list of h-entries
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tantek aaronpk - I have <body class="h-feed">
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aaronpk oh, interesting
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tantek with a p-name and p-author etc.
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tantek based on the last time we talked about h-feed
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aaronpk yeah then no idea why it doesn't find it
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tantek does it work for you?
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aaronpk on my site? no, I haven't done h-feed yet
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tantek pretty sure I added it because Sandeep asked me to
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jschweinsberg tantek: Now it does work for your site.
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tantek jschweinsberg - odd - now it's returning something, but bad hrefs
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tantek no permalinks (from u-url), no dates (dt-published dt-updated), no content (from e-content)
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tantek I wonder what microformats2 parser he's using
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barnabywalters tantek: he might be using an old version of php-mf2
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bnvk tantek: aaronpk: i'm not terribly opinionated about doing IndieWebify in JS as opposed to <form> + PHP parsing seems like a huge win, barnabywalters and I can work towards that instead
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barnabywalters +1
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barnabywalters we can always do fancy js progressive enhancement stuff once the basic version is built
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bnvk the biggest trade off for me with JS approach was being able to go through and validate each stage of IndieMark in one smooth fashion that keeps the previous validations on screen- pretty negligible
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barnabywalters bnvk: that can still be done
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bnvk yah, but that's just a lot more work :)
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barnabywalters not necessarily
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bnvk barnabywalters: if you say so :)
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barnabywalters so, basic version is pure HTML form submit
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barnabywalters then, sprinkle AJAX in to load just the results div in instead of navigating to a new page
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bnvk right
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barnabywalters URLs still all work, works without JS, but you can still smoothly scroll through and see all your results at the same time
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tantek barnabywalters - yes, this: "always do fancy js progressive enhancement stuff once the basic version is built"
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barnabywalters ping bnvk: having a look at indiewebify.me now
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bnvk barnabywalters: cool, I'll be officially back on in a lil bit- just ate and now need to walk a bit!
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barnabywalters cool — just going through and putting some more foundations in place
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tantek hey barnabywalters - http://indiewebify.me/ seems broken now
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tantek all the JS links just do nothing
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barnabywalters tantek: I didn’t do anything — honest :) just working locally
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tantek this is why web forms matter
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tantek because when JS fails it fails silently
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barnabywalters I know. working on it.
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tantek thank you!
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bret barnabywalters, did you see the webmention PR from the other day?
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barnabywalters bret: I did indeed, not looked at it in detail, but I trust your jeykll abilities
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barnabywalters provided it’ll work when I merge it, I’ll merge it :)
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bret it should work, it works locally
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barnabywalters okay, merging
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bret I had to move the actual content from the readme to files called 0.1 0.2 etc
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bret the index populates with whatever version is set to as latest in the config
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bret so its a little more complicated that it used to be, not sure if people want that
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barnabywalters bret: http://webmention.org is broken-ish now :(
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barnabywalters looks like a markdown parsing issue
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bret ack holy cow
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bret git reset --hard
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bret !
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bret reset to the commit before and then force push
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bret let me look into it
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters, bret: What is this solving: https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/17?
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barnabywalters oh hi sandeepshetty
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sandeepshetty hey barnabywalters
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barnabywalters good to see you again
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sandeepshetty took a break for a bit... what's happening? what did I miss?
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barnabywalters currently frantically trying to un-mess up webmention.org. I merged bret’s PR and it broke :( I think I fixed it, you just need to regenerate the HTML in the GH UI
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sandeepshetty webmention.org is broken..
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bret hey sandeepshetty, i converted to a jekyll site as an experiment to see if it would help with some issues with the gh-page generator, and my experiment failed XD can we undo that PR?
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: we'd love to be able to update webmention.org faster, moving the repo over to indieweb would mean more of us can push changes: https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/4
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sandeepshetty I'll just use the auto generator I was using before..
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aaronpk also welcome back sandeepshetty!
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barnabywalters bret: I undid the PR, sandeepshetty just needs to regenerate the HTML from the md files
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bret ok
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: thanks :) sorry for the hassle
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bret barnabywalters, i will have to test that out some more
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sandeepshetty the auto generator is picking up the latest readme
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sandeepshetty which is now the one with the jekyll stuff
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sandeepshetty argh! and there is so much cruft now in the repo!
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aaronpk the changes to use jekyll are good. the point is to only have one version of the text, and let gh-pages build out the final html.
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aaronpk otherwise we get the source md and html out of sync quickly, it already happened
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sandeepshetty ideally draft should be in a branch till a version is frozen.. so you shouldn't have this problem..
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sandeepshetty I'm resetting head to a previous version for now so I can restore the old readme
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barnabywalters I thought the more common convention was to have latest (WIP) version in master and freeze versions as tags or branches
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barnabywalters that makes more sense from a practical POV — we can work on, and make PRs to, master without having to worry about other branches
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sandeepshetty the website can't show the WIP (because you need to develop against a version), the repo has the WIP.
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barnabywalters why shouldn’t the website show the WIP by default, and link so frozen versions?
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barnabywalters that’s what the W3C IIRC
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barnabywalters s/IIRC/do IIRC
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: that’s what the W3C do IIRC
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aaronpk for example this link http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-v2 redirects to the latest draft
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sandeepshetty thats a frozen version... not every commit is a frozen version...
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sandeepshetty Right now 0.2 is not frozen..
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aaronpk heh good point, i don't even know how to find the in-progress work of the oauth2 drafts
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sandeepshetty there are still some changes to be done
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aaronpk well we shouldn't call it 0.2 until it's frozen then
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sandeepshetty that's why it's in a branch that will be merged into master when it's frozen
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barnabywalters tantek: you’ve got the most standards experience, what version of the spec should people see when they go to webmention.org? latest commit or latest frozen version?
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sandeepshetty IMO, the website should show the latest *frozen* version
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tantek that seems fine
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tantek but it only works if it keeps up
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sandeepshetty thats what the devs would want to build against
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aaronpk in that case we've gotta finish 0.2 faster
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tantek that's why so many standards have gone to "living" specs
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aaronpk it's been WIP for too long, so everyone is developing against 0.1
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barnabywalters that makes sense. master can still be WIP for ease of working, but gh-pages is set to whatever the latest frozen version is
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sandeepshetty I think ppl are devloping against v1 because that's what exists..
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aaronpk right, because v2 hasn't been "frozen" yet
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tantek-ipod So that's the problem with freezing
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aaronpk that's also why oauth2 got so complicated
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters: I prefer working in features branches and not master..
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tantek-ipod When depending on freezing causes more problems than depending on live, devs switch to using live.
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sandeepshetty master is for forzen stuff
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aaronpk oauth2 draft 10 was the latest over the summer of 2010, so everybody built their APIs against that. very few have updated since then.
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aaronpk in the mean time the spec went to 31 drafts and is now an RFC, but nobody cares
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tantek-ipod Experience has shown eg with this example of webmention, that "freezing" either takes too long or can be (accidentally) held up by people being missing for a while
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tantek-ipod sandeepshetty:depending on a "frozen" version sounds good in theory but I practice it has been more harmful than helpful.
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tantek-ipod So better to have home page show latest draft with latest fixes
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sandeepshetty tantek-ipod: I make my living building against facebook api (a living api) and I know how badly that sucks
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tantek And if a specific dev wants a specific number version they can go to that specific permalink.
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aaronpk the "master as development" and "master as stable" is split like 50/50 between developers, it's a personal preference
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tantek sandeepshetty: That's a proprietary API. Standard Apis work better with live versions.
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aaronpk our team does all our development as master-as-development
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sandeepshetty master as stable works well with github autogenerators
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sandeepshetty and I prefer the autogenerator to the jekyll stuff because I can do it from anywhere...
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aaronpk github builds the jekyll site by itself, it's even more automatic
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tantek Also, wikis for specs work better because it takes fewer steps to edit fix save than all the github commit push deploy malarkey.
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aaronpk the problemw ith the autogenerator is only the repo owner can update it, and as long as it's in the converspace repo that's only you
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sandeepshetty using hooks?
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bret it autotriggers every commit
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aaronpk it's all built into github
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aaronpk github runs jekyll internally to build out the html
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aaronpk https://help.github.com/articles/using-jekyll-with-pages
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barnabywalters so there are actually fewer steps after an initial setup cost
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barnabywalters commit rather than commit, regenerate
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tantek By commit you mean commit, push to master right?
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aaronpk yes
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barnabywalters yep
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barnabywalters tantek: or, push to feature branch if you’re working that way
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sandeepshetty how do you selectively publish?
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barnabywalters I prefer as little merging as possible
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aaronpk you can still work on feature branches to avoid updating the live site
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aaronpk master is what's published to the github pages hosting
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tantek Wiki = very little merging. Make small quick edits.
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tantek Less ceremony for edits means smaller more frequent edits means fewer collisions/merges.
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aaronpk true
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barnabywalters also *much* easier to revert edits
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aaronpk here's a secret: this page, https://developers.geoloqi.com/api/trigger/create is actually pulling from a mediawiki install
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aaronpk so we could even still publish the wiki page at webmention.org and wrap it with a simpler design if needed
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barnabywalters aaronpk: that TOC does look familiar ;)
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aaronpk tho I do like the ability for discussion on github issues
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bret ok, I fixed the render issue
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sandeepshetty I prefer having a WIP branch.. because something you need to play around with stuff before you decide/freeze on stuff
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barnabywalters aaronpk: turns out it’s super easy to POSSE to GH issues! their API is simple and personal key auth makes authentication easy
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sandeepshetty bret pull request?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: nice! are you doing it now?
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bret sandeepshetty, let me clean up my branch first
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bret i totally botched that last PR
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bret :(
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barnabywalters aaronpk: in theory, last time I tested it it didn’t work quite right (although rely context worked perfectly), I added extra debugging for next time :)
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barnabywalters I might also implement issue creation by replying to a repo itself
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aaronpk nice, yea that's how I have it working. reply to a repo creates a new issue, reply to an issue creates a comment
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barnabywalters cool — didn’t realise you’d already implemented it :) is that documented anywhere? do you use it much?
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aaronpk I haven't used it too much yet. I think it's noted on the p3k page?
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aaronpk i have a few replies in my feed that are github comments though
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barnabywalters cool. should also be really easy to backfeed (pull in further comments). I have a half working implementation of that for twitter
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barnabywalters using mf2-shim
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barnabywalters goodnight all
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Loqi see you in the morning!
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bret sandeepshetty if you are up for trying this out again, I send you a fixed PR
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bret with the fixed render error.
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sandeepshetty bret: merged..
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aaronpk bret: index.html is empty. shouldn't it at least link to 0.1?
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bret aaronpk it isnt actually
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aaronpk oh?
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bret its a workaround for a content bug
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bret the layout is set to index
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bret check out layout/index
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aaronpk oh crazy
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aaronpk ok
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aaronpk we should see it on webmention.org in a few minutes then
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bret bret.io/webmention is the final render, sans css
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bret once its on its own TLD the css works
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bret errr own domain
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aaronpk great
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bret sandeepshetty, i need to PR better, I'm so sorry
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sandeepshetty If we agree that the website is going to be the latest frozen version. can we just go back to not using jekyll?
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sandeepshetty I don't think spec repo should look so complicated: https://github.com/converspace/webmention
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sandeepshetty to contibtors..
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sandeepshetty the early version with just the readme was perfect
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bret whatever you guys want, i see some benefit to jekyll once its working, but for pure simplicity i can understand that as well
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bret this is what people will see when editing: https://github.com/bcomnes/webmention/blob/master/0.1.md
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aaronpk I don't think we've agreed on freezing versions yet either
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aaronpk in the mean time webmention.org is restored
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bret we can arbitrary pages: http://webmention.org/IMPLEMENTATIONS/
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sandeepshetty Given the things that I've seen filed as issues.. if this were a wiki I think the "spec" would be pretty messed up by now...
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aaronpk I like having github issues to discuss this stuff
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sandeepshetty I thinks it's important to have some editorial control over the spec..
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sandeepshetty hence the role of a editor
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: sure, but if the editor goes off the grid for a few months then it really messes up the flow of development
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sandeepshetty the editor wasn't away for a few months.. and he was thiking about the spec while he was away.. getting the editor back for emergencies is just an email or tweet away
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bret idea!
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bret we can use submodules on the website
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sandeepshetty bret: the arbit pages is a good pro for the jekyll appraoch
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sandeepshetty I hare git submodules
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sandeepshetty *hate
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bret the cool thing is that for the website, you wont have to deal with them, I will
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sandeepshetty and now with composer I never to use them
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bret and the webmention spec can remain a readme.md file in its own repo
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bret shit, thats what I should have done
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bret :/
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sandeepshetty bret: how does that work?
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aaronpk interesting? I can't picture it
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bret we have a website repo that has submodules to different commits in the vanilla webmention repo
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bret gh pulls those in on generation
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bret let me try a prototype
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bret the website would have to be updated routinely to point to the right version of the spec though
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sandeepshetty the right version of the spec will always be master
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sandeepshetty does that make it simpler?
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bret I mean, its just a bunch of tradeoffs
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bret one readme.md is super simple, but then keeping the site in sync becomes a chore
bnvk joined the channel
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sandeepshetty hmm.... I have another simpler option.. I'll just remove the cname and instead just have the domain redirect to master/readme
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk on github.com?
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sandeepshetty that solves all issues ..