#indiewebcamp 2013-10-04

2013-10-04 UTC
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bret icco way cool!
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acegiak so the link to the webmention client on indiewebify.me is broken, who do we ping?
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@haverholm There is no single alternative to Facebook or Twitter, but the #IndieWeb project offers some interesting ideas: http://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/386023360918224897)
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waterpigs.co.uk created /scheduling (+450) "stubbed with silo support, Brian Suda’s personal usage" (view diff)
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tantek acegiak - I believe barnabywalters is working on fixing the "links" on indiewebify.me to actually be form buttons that work via HTML form submissions regardless of JS working or not.
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barnabywalters in this case it’s a plain old link, just pointed to the wrong thing https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client
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barnabywalters easiest just to link to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Webmention-related_libraries_and_tools
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barnabywalters which is easier to maintain
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tantek Good morning indiewebcamp!
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barnabywalters morning
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cweiske.de edited /webmention (+121) "/* Webmention-related libraries and tools */ link to pear2/services_pingback" (view diff)
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barnabywalters what was the word benwerd used? mafternoon? that
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /webmention (+33) "Merged implementations section, organised better, added supporting software and plugins" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /webmention (+59) "/* Implementations */ added blank span with old ID in case any links were broken" (view diff)
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barnabywalters I merged and tidied the webmention implementation section — hopefully this makes things easier to find: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Implementations
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barnabywalters please add any tools you know of which I’ve missed
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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bnvk barnabywalters: I see you pushed some nifty updates to IWM
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bnvk I'm deploying em
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tantek_ barnabywalters re: github.com vs. indiewebcamp.com - yes, "easier to maintain" <-- why wikis are better for *content* than github
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tantek_ including specs
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tantek_ aside: has anyone seen http://decentralizer.com/ ?
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barnabywalters bnvk: yep, working on some more stuff now
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aaronpk tantek_: I'm curious about your thoughts re: having a spec editor
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tantek_ aaronpk - spec editing is hard. it's a skill that requires years of development
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bnvk barnabywalters: ah, did you change the syntax to be 5.4 req again?
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tantek_ even as a 15+ year spec editor, I'm *still* learning how to write better specs
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barnabywalters bnvk: not as far as I know
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barnabywalters ah, looks like I did. fixing
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aaronpk is there a major benefit to having a single editor maintaining editorial control?
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bnvk hrm, I'm getting that same unexpected '[' error again
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tantek so yes, a spec editor is important, but a good spec editor can deal with having a spec on an open wiki which allows/encourages minor fixes by anyone
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barnabywalters bnvk: should be fixed now
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barnabywalters just fixing some more bugs too
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bnvk okie
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bnvk tantek: that http://decentralizer.com seems pretty cool- albeit a bit rough
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tantek bnvk - as far as I can tell - it's a personal log of efforts to become decentralized
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tantek we should invite the author to #indiewebcamp
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bnvk yah, seems very personal centric
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Loqi it is probable
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tantek which is good - he's documenting his selfdogfooding
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tantek it's not intended as a community resource, more of a "here's what I'm thinking / doing and why, maybe you'll find it useful"
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tantek which is great
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tantek love this kind of public documentation of personal efforts
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neuro` Good evening campers
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bnvk hehe, yah it's cool
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barnabywalters bnvk: I pushed another fix
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barnabywalters you’ll need to re-run composer.phar update too, I added aaronpk’s mention client
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barnabywalters I made a deploy script which is this:
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tantek_ hates the ceremony that github adds
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barnabywalters ssh bwserve -C "cd sites/waterpigs.co.uk/indiewebify-me && git pull && ./composer.phar install"
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tantek_ "pushed another fix" - like "saving" a wiki page.
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barnabywalters tantek: yes, I try to avoid forks and pull requests whenever possible for that reason
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tantek_ barnabywalters - the problem is that pull requests is the *default* way of operating / collaborative editing on github
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aaronpk personally I like the fork+pull request model for multi-person projects
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aaronpk it's way better than everybody pushing to master, gives better audit trails and leads to fewer conflicts
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barnabywalters aaronpk: it can be good if you have a large project which needs a structured system
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tantek_ aaronpk - for code, yes, for content, disagreed.
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barnabywalters but you have to make sure everyone agrees on (or even knows about) the system
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aaronpk yeah, it's different for content
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tantek_ for code it makes sense because you have greater constraints, like it has to run
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tantek_ pass tests etc.
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aaronpk the interesting thing is indiewebify.me is a cross between content and code
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tantek_ so some additional hoops are helpful
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tantek_ aaronpk - I'm serious about adding ability to add <form> <input> <button> markup to the wiki
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aaronpk yes but the code behind that has to live somewhere besides the wiki
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tantek_ I see no reason not to allow no-JS "apps" as part of a wiki
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barnabywalters RE crossover — if content authoring/maintenance becomes a serious problem we’ll fix it
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barnabywalters currently there is a lot more code than content in that repo
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barnabywalters although I hope to improve the balance by packaging up each endpoint into it’s own repo, if it’s useful
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barnabywalters oh btw, my last update to indiewebify.me added access control origin headers to all the endpoints with ?url parameters
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tantek_ barnabywalters - if you make sure that all forms on indiewebify.me work *without* JS - then I can make IndieMark into an Indiewebifyme "light" version
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barnabywalters so it can be used to send webmention
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tantek_ nice
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barnabywalters tantek_: only js-dependent part now is symmetric rel validation, as it would take ages to do all the requests
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barnabywalters I can add js fallback to those too so people can click a link and manually validate each one
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tantek_ that should be server-dependent, not js-dependent
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tantek_ yeah that would be cool
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barnabywalters but getting the complex algorithm implemented correctly is higher priority
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barnabywalters and documented correctly, for that matter
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barnabywalters aaronpk: is the rel validation code in indieauth “right”?
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bnvk barnabywalters: deployed updates
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I *think* so? happy to take bug reports
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barnabywalters if it is, we should go through it and clarify the algorithm on the mf wiki
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aaronpk what would be extremely useful is a test suite
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barnabywalters to get it to a point where I can write an implementation which produces the exact same results without looking at your code
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aaronpk a set of html pages representing domains and profiles on silos
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aaronpk that link to each other, and produce all possible combinations of valid and invalid rel links
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barnabywalters bnvk: cool, thanks!
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tantek_ barnabywalters - what details need clarification? I mean, feel free to make incremental tweaks to the microformats relmeauth wiki page if that's easier - and I'll review the diffs
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barnabywalters tantek_: not having implemented it I don’t know what to fix — I don’t know where the problems are
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barnabywalters it’s all the URL normalisation and redirect details
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tantek_ so I guess we need to start there - capturing the URL normalization and redirect details
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tantek_ even just in an FAQ format
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aaronpk barnabywalters: are you familiar with webmock and stubbed requests in test frameworks?
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tantek_ if you can at least capture the questions and answers, I can take a crack at improving the algorithm accordingly
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barnabywalters aaronpk: not webmock specifically, all my taproot plugins are tested using stubbed HTTP requests/responses
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aaronpk webmock is the ruby one i gues
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barnabywalters tantek_: I’ll work through the algorithm adding questions
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aaronpk barnabywalters: cool, I think it would be useful to create a set of tests and mock data for the indieauth algorithm
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aaronpk looks like the php mock thing is similar to the ruby one i've used https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-helpers/blob/master/tests/BarnabyWalters/Posse/EventListener/TwitterSyndicatorTest.php#L44 vs https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-ruby/blob/master/test/lib/webmention/discovery_test.rb
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tantek_ barnabywalters - if it's easier, feel free to capture the questions just as separate items on a new page like: http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth-faq
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aaronpk I wonder if there's a way to write a test framework that can talk to any implementation of the algorithm
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barnabywalters aaronpk: small webserver people run on their own machine to test against?
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aaronpk well for starters, you and I need to be able to test our implementations, it makes sense that we test against the same test suite
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aaronpk otherwise we have two test suites to build/verify/maintain
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aaronpk so if there is a way we can write some test framework that lets us test both our ruby and php implementations at the same time, that'd be ideal
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barnabywalters yeah, with a shared tiny server to test against, we’d still need two test *suites*
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barnabywalters I wonder if we could repurpose the microformats test suite format
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barnabywalters I’ve wanted to make that more generic for a while anyway
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tantek barnabywalters - ping gjones about it - he was the driving force behind it
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aaronpk that's why i'm trying to think of a way to write one suite that can be used for both
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aaronpk what's that format?
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barnabywalters so that tests really *can* be documentation
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barnabywalters uh, not actually sure it’s documented anywhere — I couldn’t find it earlier today on the wiki at least
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barnabywalters example: https://github.com/microformats/tests/blob/master/hcard.html
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barnabywalters h-x-test-suite
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tantek barnabywalters - pretty sure it's on the microformats wiki
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aaronpk oh interesting
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tantek any questions - ping gjones
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barnabywalters not linked from http://microformats.org/wiki/test-suite, doesn’t show up in searches
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tantek barnabywalters - fix that! :)
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barnabywalters test-suite-brainstorming?
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aaronpk the challenge with the indieauth tests is each test requires several different HTTP pages
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barnabywalters ha-ha! it’s here: http://microformats.org/wiki/test-fixture
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barnabywalters or, at least, the classic mf version is
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tantek barnabywalters - add links to make it more discoverable!
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barnabywalters tantek: doing, also updating for mf2
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tantek (like seriously - have at it and edit the text-* pages on microformats.org/wiki
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tantek thank you!
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tantek your new perspective is key here
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tantek because you better see what's missing
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barnabywalters tantek: writing copy for indiewebify.me has led me to do some similar tidying and linking on the IWC wiki
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aaronpk barnabywalters: maybe there is a way to create the "test suite" as a list of urls, html content, and expected results, so that it can be scripted in ruby and php based on the same data source
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barnabywalters aaronpk: okay, doesn’t sound like there’s anything there we couldn’t do with mf in an HTML page
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aaronpk have you heard of any test suite markup formats? I've only seen them in code
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aaronpk brb
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barnabywalters nope, I’ll see if I can find any for h-test-suite research
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tantek again - ping gjones when you see him online - he did a bunch of research etc.
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barnabywalters will do
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@JeroenSangers Interesting concept: POSSE – Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/386205647328792576)
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@JamesGrantFL Please consider joining the campaign to make @blufitbottle a reality. #Wellness #OwnYourData http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/blufit-bottle (twitter.com/_/status/386215173004206080)
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@blufitbottle RT @JamesGrantFL: Please consider joining the campaign to make @blufitbottle a reality. #Wellness #OwnYourData http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/blufit-bottle (twitter.com/_/status/386227815378477057)
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jernst I've been defining a "universal" backup format for web applications for the Indie Box Project. If you can install any application in one command, why not backup or restore any application in a single command? Would love comments.
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jernst Bottom two links here: http://indieboxproject.org/wiki/Using_Indie_Box
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@Johannes_Ernst Draft for #IndieBox backup and restore functionality. http://indieboxproject.org/wiki/Using_Indie_Box #pcloud #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/386253415883370496)
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