#indiewebcamp 2013-11-08

2013-11-08 UTC
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KevinMarks_
well, yes. filesystem as a service is nice. especially with their new js api for it
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KevinMarks_
looking for somethign else I found a proto-indieweb post of mine: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2007/06/open-versus-closed-code-and-networks.html
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_6a68
that's interesting, i didn't realize the JS API worked client-side
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KevinMarks_
they just made it work last week
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_6a68
that's cool. solves the problem of the (IMO) painful AWS dashboard: roll your own
snarfed, josephboyle, caseorganic, texburgher, pfenwick1, pfenwick, _6a68, ozten and skinny joined the channel
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skinny
need help getting jekyll going on my local box. i updated rvm, installed the liquid gem but "gem install jekyll" hangs indefinitely
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@ShaneHudson
I don't mind Google knowing about me, but surely this is a little over ott? I do like the map though! #indieweb https://twitter.com/ShaneHudson/status/398631668493590528/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/398631668493590528)
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tantek
good evening indiewebcamp
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skinny
tantek: heya!
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tantek
hey skinny!
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tantek
did you solve your jekyll problem?
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skinny
tantek: got the server running all my byself! a moment of pure victory.
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skinny
I stood up and hollered and threw my hands up in the air.
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pdurbin
skinny: what was the fix?
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skinny
pdurbin: upgraded ruby, installed the liquid dependency, waiiiiitttttteeeedddd forever for the jekyll to install. it was working, just took so long I thought it was hanging.
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pdurbin
at least with the old days of the cpan client, you knew something was happening... all those tests being run ;)
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@ehafen
BBC News - Massive DNA volunteer hunt begins http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24834375 Hunt does not go well with empowerment #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/398802463664246784)
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@A_Massouras
RT @ehafen: BBC News - Massive DNA volunteer hunt begins http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24834375 Hunt does not go well with empowerment #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/398803133268115456)
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@wissit
RT @ehafen: BBC News - Massive DNA volunteer hunt begins http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24834375 Hunt does not go well with empowerment #ownyourdata
(twitter.com/_/status/398812252637515777)
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barnabywalters
sandeep’s site is back! http://www.sandeep.io/
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Jihaisse
how is it possible to have a twitter account with only one letter ?
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barnabywalters
Jihaisse: getting in there really early :)
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tantek
!tell skinny That is totally awesome!! (apologies for the lack of immediate response, you caught me just before I passed out asleep). What's the URL for your new server/site?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
edited /projects (-9) "/* Jekyll */ use main template"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell skinny how long did gem install jekyll take? many minutes? hours? a day? rough estimate?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
edited /Jekyll (+730) "add Troubleshooting (based on skinny's experiences), See Also sections, note pattern of migrations from WordPress"
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tantek.com
edited /Jekyll (+1) "/* gem install jekyll hang indefinitely */ g"
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benwerd
Good morning indieweb gang! Feedback very much appreciated on the way I'm now backlinking / citing on Twitter & Facebook.
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benwerd
excellent!
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tantek
benwerd they're short at least!
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tantek
it's interesting that you've chosen the path of always having them auto-link in Twitter
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tantek
now to see if any of your Twitter readers ever complain about that (as mine did when I used to do that)
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benwerd
I was playing with both - I can move from one to the other
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tantek
(e.g. when the whole note fits in a tweet)
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tantek
I'm still a believer in the "only auto-link when there's more content to read" school of permashortlink/citation design ;)
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benwerd
On Fb I sort of fudged it so that there's a link but Facebook ignores it (because the URI schema is missing)
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benwerd
I can definitely see that point of view
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tantek
right - FB is more flexible in that regard
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tantek
Twitter used to be
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tantek
I was actually quite annoyed when they changed it
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benwerd
goes to read
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tantek
benwerd, here's me complaining about Twitter starting to autolink URLs without "http://" http://tantek.com/2011/284/t8/disliking-twitter-wrapping-urls-w-o-http (so that's likely within days of when the implemented it, if not on the day)
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@t
disliking @Twitter t.co wrapping URLs w/o http. I was deliberately using unlinked (ttk.me) paren-permalink-ids. (http://tantek.com/2011/284/t8/disliking-twitter-wrapping-urls-w-o-http)
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benwerd
All really good points. Particularly: "The whole point of POSSE is that you still care about your friends on Twitter (or other silos) reading you, so you should care about their UX also."
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tantek
yeah that's key design principle at the heart
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tantek
more on Twitter's shift to autolinking back then: https://twitter.com/t/status/130396243141722112
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@t
Still annoyed by Twitter's http-less auto-linking. Back to the citation drawing board. Ceci n'est pas une lien → (http://tantek.com/2011/302/t3/annoyed-twitter-http-less-auto-linking-citation)
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tantek
and how I came up with the solution (and tested it) https://twitter.com/t/status/130566099858231297
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@t
Chicago Manual of Style in-text parenthesizes source [space] date. Let's try ccTLD [space] t-NewBase60-epoch-days → (ttk.me t4Ec1)
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@t
It's settled: @falcon perma-short-link in-text cite design: (ccTLD [space] t-NewBase60-epoch-days-nth-post). #indieweb (ttk.me t4Ec3)
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benwerd
ok, so I haven't implemented your date format, but I'm about to try a variation on your citation style. (For me it's a quick flip from $post->getShortURL() to $post->getCitation().)
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tantek
(I was able to find all those using 1) site search, 2) the prev/next nav arrows on my notes - to quickly flip forward in time and see my follow-up thinking)
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tantek
Twitter is *really* missing out by not having prev/next nav on tweet permalinks.
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tantek
I find it *incredibly* useful
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tantek
benwerd - my date format isn't necessary for the citation style
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tantek
the key is
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tantek
(werd.io restofpathhere)
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barnabywalters
does the open paren prevent the short domain from being auto-linked?
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tantek
ccTLD without scheme does not get autolinked - that's the trick I'm using
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tantek
the parens are based on CMOS convention (as noted above)
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tantek
heh, the expansion makes it hard to show your permashortlink
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tantek
so this: werd.io/s/25jWa
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tantek
becomes this (werd.io s/25jWa)
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tantek
that's the simplest way to do it
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tantek
(and I picked that tweet in particular since all the note content fit)
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@benwerd
Grinding coffee in the morning, brewing it in the cafetiere, while light streaks into the kitchen. (werd.io s/3Nb4L)
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benwerd
oh, thanks loqi
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Loqi
you're welcome
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benwerd
missing piece is to reference that on the post body, and ...
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tantek
right - that's why I have my permashortcitations explicitly mentioned briefly on my notes
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tantek
(I put it right after the datetime published, as it seemed most contextually similar/relevant to that)
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tommorris
I kinda knew that article must be bullshit. the guy was quoting that Josh Weed guy
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tommorris
hipster gen-x mormons trying to pretend that wearing trainers means that homophobia is okay
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benwerd
tantek: just did the same
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tantek
the more we find conventions like these, both on our own sites, and on POSSEd content, the more we give people who live on silos clues about the indieweb, its existence, and maybe inspire curiosity at least.
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@t
@benwerd congratulations on launching permashortcitation support in idno / werd.io! #indieweb #POSSE (ttk.me t4Sx1)
(twitter.com/_/status/398859433125896192)
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tantek
cool. reply threaded on both werd.io and twitter. :) now to make it fewer steps to do so.
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tantek
good post benwerd
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tantek
this phrase sounds a bit confusing: "other peoples'"
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barnabywalters
wonders if the “add a slash” step could be made unnecessary
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tantek
perhaps s/other peoples'/others' silos/
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barnabywalters
how about setting up a route at %20[.+]
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benwerd
mmm, repings. Nice.
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barnabywalters
then people could just paste the whole short citation into the address bar and go straight to the site
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benwerd
I'll stop editing it now.
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tommorris
omgspam. ;)
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tantek
barnabywalters that used to work *as is* with my permashortcitations because Google *was* indexing them in realtime due to my PuSH support
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benwerd
barnabywalters: nice nice nice idea
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tantek
at some point they stopped
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tantek
which is sad
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barnabywalters
tantek: aw that’s a shame :(
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benwerd
(so the other update I worked on was PuSH support, finally. But it sounds like that ship has sailed a bit.)
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barnabywalters
PuSH is one of those things which probably *will* be extremely useful for lots of things, just not right now
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tantek
barnabywalters - that's been said of many things in the past
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barnabywalters
e.g. I’m at the point where I actually need to build a PuSH subscriber
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barnabywalters
it’s taken ages to get there but it’s happening now
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@philip_roberts
@benwerd so what's the point in adding the reference at all?
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tantek
barnabywalters presumably PuSH helps us scale distributing notifications more than webmention
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tantek
I'm hoping so anyway
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tantek
benwerd - it's right there on the URL I gave you before
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tantek
(sorry, "the URL" - I know, I gave a lot of them today ;) )
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barnabywalters
so with indie pipes I’m finding very quickly that the feedback loops have to be *tiny* in order for it to be useful
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tantek
"… use permashortcitations so that your original posts are still automatically discoverable using the original-post-discovery algorithm"
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barnabywalters
but I want it to be runnable using PHP so I don’t have to learn go or node.js yet, amongst other things
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aaronpk
tantek: another thing to consider re: autolinking, now that our own indieweb sites are getting to be more functional than twitter.com, I might want to actually encourage visitors on twitter to click through to my site because they'll get a richer experience
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tantek
aaronpk - it needs to be a *considerably* richer experience for the user to not get annoyed
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barnabywalters
hence the need for a cache, so I can be repeat-reading URLs off memory or disk most of the time
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tantek
so far the only case of that we have is "additional content in the post"
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barnabywalters
but they also need to be kept up to date, so another service subscribes to changes to them and updates the cached copy on update
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tantek
I haven't seen anyone's indieweb note permalinks provide a "considerably richer" experience than Twitter (e.g. my prev/next nav arrows are richer, but not *considerably* than Twitter)
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aaronpk
sure, but I think that's coming soon
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tantek
it's more important for the indieweb experience to *not* annoy our friends, than it is to "market the hell out of it with more links"
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aaronpk
I still stand by my experience of using the short citation, where I immediately got people pointing out the "missing slash" in my links
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tantek
we need to continuously make a good impression on non-indieweb readers (silo readers) so they learn to admire, respect, and actually *want* to do that for themselves.
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tantek
aaronpk - the "missing slash" pointing out is far less annoyance to them than the "why are you linking to a duplicate?!?!?"
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aaronpk
disagreed
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tantek
aaronpk - your data point is valid, just far less annoying to those users than clicking through and seeing nothing more
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tantek
we can compare reply tweets if you like
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tantek
(I've gotten an occasional missing slash @-reply myself, but they seem a little confused rather than annoyed)
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tantek
confused is better than annoyed
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tantek
(tag: debate permashortcitations vs permashortlinks)
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tantek
(for future search discovery)
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+7) "/* POSSE entire note to twitter */ linky"
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snarfed.org
edited /Instagram (+146) "add export section"
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snarfed.org
edited /Google+ (+157) "add export section"
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snarfed.org
edited /Sites_with_data_portability (+318) "add export section"
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snarfed.org
edited /Sites_with_data_portability (-276) "remove old twitter section"
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barnabywalters
snarfed: you’ve seen http://indiewebcamp.com/export, right?
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snarfed
no, thanks!
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snarfed
looking now
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snarfed.org
edited /export (+271) "mention my facebook import"
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benwerd
Ooh. That's handy. So one thing I've been asked for is idno export (I know, I know, if I was using text files I wouldn't even need one). Thinking about the UI / UX and formats for that, and leaning towards chrome-less mf2 HTML.
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barnabywalters
benwerd: chrome-less meaning no css?
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barnabywalters
or just no js?
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benwerd
no html that isn't specifically required for marking up the content. so no CSS + no JS + no unnecessary HTML.
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benwerd
(and maybe CSS.)
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barnabywalters
idno is really well marked up, for the moment you can just tell people who want export to wget -r their sites ;)
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benwerd
(because exporting to a static site is a sort of neat idea.)
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barnabywalters
or is there a bunch of data which doesn’t get exposed in the public HTML?
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benwerd
Ha ;) I could just create a user-friendly version of that. And thanks ;)
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benwerd
Not yet, no
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barnabywalters
I think having some, minimal css in exports is a good idea —just enough to make them browsable and moderately attractive in a browser
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tantek
agreed
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tantek
heck it helps when browsing my data files just for debugging purposes
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snarfed.org
edited /export (+453) "add freedom.io"
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barnabywalters
one thing I’m considering for indie pipe output endpoints is minimal HTML with one CSS and JS file link, which lays a basic UI over it
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barnabywalters
so machines get the smallest, easiest to parse version, but humans get extra styling, help, context
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snarfed
i like it
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snarfed
similar to the original xslt / xml idea
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tantek.com
created /permashortcitation (+8135) "about time I started a "stub" on this topic, copied lots from IRC and other pages"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /permalinks (+45) "see also"
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tantek
whew - ok, done with that braindump.
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tantek
thanks benwerd - your permashortcitation implementation inspired me to finally write this up: http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitation
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tantek
I forget - is anyone else implementing permashortcitations (yet) ?
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tantek
barnabywalters - it looks like (from your recent tweets at least) that you're implementing permashortlinks
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snarfed
seems like permashortlinks are more common right now at least
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barnabywalters
er yep, that still happens sometimes :/
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tantek
snarfed - that's because they're less work to just do always
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barnabywalters
I forgot to fix that one
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tantek
rather than conditionally do permashortcitations
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snarfed
not necessarily just less work. most of my posts are much longer, so the e.g. twitter copy isn't basically a duplicate, people who want the content actually do click through
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snarfed
(which i expect)
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snarfed
but i don't mean to rehash the debate
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snarfed
in any case, i'm following all the alternatives closely since i'm implementing webmention translation into and out of silos right now
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snarfed
i'm not religious, they're all straightforward so i'll happily implement them all
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tantek
snarfed - yeah all of us include clickable links when there is more content, no debate there.
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barnabywalters
aaronpk did implement them for a while
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tantek
it's only when there is no new content that there is debate
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tantek
no additional content that is
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snarfed
got it
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snarfed
so sad that we have to figure this out since we can't put markup into silo posts
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snarfed
but c'est la vie
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tantek
the whole point is to provide a nicer / less distracting experience for your friends that read you on silos (via your POSSE'd posts)
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tantek
snarfed - indeed, I gave up on trying to get the silos to change in these ways - about 2-3 years ago.
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snarfed
fighting the good fight counts, even if you don't always win
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tantek
it was clear from the outcomes of the various Social Web Foo, Social Graph Foo, Open Web Foo camps that the silos really didn't care enough to change. (2008-2010) http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008
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tantek
so that's why I started down the path of designing for "in content" communication of such "meta data"
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tantek
yeah - there's plenty of history and experience here that have informed current designs and decisions
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tantek
ok out for a quick run. ttyl.
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snarfed
agreed re the in-silo UX. my motivation for working on silo stuff is that most of my friends aren't part of the tech community too much, and don't care about indieweb etc
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snarfed
so i have to meet them where they are, in the silos and UXes they expect
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tobilehman.com
edited /OpenID (+68) "/* Consuming Sites */ add No Starch Press to OpenID consumers"
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habitmelon
just ordered 'Ruby under a Microscope' from No Starch Press and was pleased to discover they support OpenID
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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tantek
snarfed - well said (re: motivation for working on silo stuff)
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tantek
A lot of these Disney (as in Walt) quotes apply to indieweb: http://www.viralnova.com/walt-disney-quotes/ (apologies for the domain)
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Jeena
why is there no search form in the wiki header?
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tantek
Jeena - heh - I'm of the same (implied) opinion (There should be a search form in the wiki header)
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tantek
ping aaronpk about it. E.g. ^^^ ;)
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Jeena
I will :D
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Jeena
aaronpk! we need your help!
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Jeena
but he is away now
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aaronpk|m
You rang?
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Jeena
aah, it would be cool if the wiki had a search field in the header
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aaronpk|m
I'm in SF today, currently trying to get off the rental car lot
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tantek
and anyone else who thinks content-focused websites should have a search form/box in the top right corner per web UI conventions ;)
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aaronpk|m
Ah yeah probably
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Jeena
do we have a bugtracker or something?
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aaronpk|m
Tantek made a /wiki/ page I think
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aaronpk|m
I prefer github issues for that sort of thing tho
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Jeena
ok I will add it there so it doesn't get lost (at least that easy as it would here)
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Jeena
ok, I will try to find it then ;)
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Jeena
hm there seems not to be a repo for this kind of issues
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tantek.com
edited /wiki/ (+332) "add subheads, searchbox suggestion"
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aaronpk|m
Yeah I want to make one for it. It's annoying for me to keep track of requests in wiki pages
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Jeena
ok thanks tantek
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tantek
it's easier to edit a page on the wiki for the wiki than to add an issue than try to find an issues forum on an unrelated site
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Jeena
I't not quite sure I agree, especially because (even if it is a silo for issues) github is the defacto standard for bugtracking
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Jeena
you get emails on updates of the bugs, you can comment, assign someone to a bug, set labels, etc.
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Jeena
a wiki page is kind of unstructured data
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tantek
I really don't want more emails
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aaronpk|m
I really disagree about using wiki for issue tracking. Really hard to get notifications and see followup
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tantek
the other comments I agree with (you can comment, assign someone to a bug, set labels, etc.)
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Jeena
how many emails per day are you getting?
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aaronpk|m
Also the wiki page doesn't give you perma links for individual items
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Jeena
(not counting mailinglists)
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aaronpk|m
You don't have to get email notifications from github if you don't want
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aaronpk|m
I get most github notification through irc for example
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tantek
ooh - that's awesome
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tantek
would be great to see a brief how-to or a link on that: http://indiewebcamp.com/GitHub
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Jeena
I will copy it there then as the first issue :D
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aaronpk|m
I should also add the theme to that repo so people can send pull requests to add the searh bar for example :)
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Jeena
that would be cool
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tantek.com
edited /wiki/ (+180) "note github issues is preferred for wiki suggestions, link to specific github issues URL"
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tantek
aaronpk - as you prefer - noted in the wiki now. with link you provided.
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aaronpk|m
thx
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tantek.com
edited /wiki/ (-212) "/* Search box in header */ moved to gh issues"
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tantek
thanks Jeena
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aaronpk|m
Feel free to move other stuff from that page to gh issues
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aaronpk|m
:)
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Jeena
I'll move "Better mobile editing support" now too
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@bethelightwrite
#NaNoWriMo has got me #writing like crazy! Loving this new story, I might even finish in time this year! #indieauth #newnovel
(twitter.com/_/status/398962009472892928)