#indiewebcamp 2013-11-27

2013-11-27 UTC
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kylewm hi all, I'm new here :) I have a personal domain running a jekyll site right now, am excited to get it indiewebified... I've read through most of the wiki (I think), still wondering what the best way is to dive in -- .
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kylewm i'm waffling between trying to roll my own or running wordpress
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tantek Welcome kylewm !
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tantek I'd say Jekyll is a good start - a bunch of folks here making good progress with it, eg bret
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tantek Certainly a lot less hassle than wp
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kylewm thanks, and ok that's interesting
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kylewm I'll have to look into his setup
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bret key kylewm
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kylewm hey :)
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bret i have done a few things with jekyll, but am thinking about moving to something more versatile
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snarfed welcome kylewm!
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bret everything I have done on bret.io is in jekyll safe mode hosted on github. feel free to check out behind the scene https://github.com/bcomnes/bcomnes.github.io
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kylewm oh ok -- it definitely sounds like the static ggenerator could be limiting
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snarfed yup. definitely simple and a good place to start though
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tantek kylewm: Don't worry about limiting until you run into limits
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snarfed agreed
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snarfed at the beginning, ideally you want to put most of your time and effort into thinking about your content, structure, style, etc
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snarfed most/all of which you can bring with you if you migrate later
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kylewm OK, that's a great point
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kylewm I like that your approach seems to be opposite of other federation-efforts
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kylewm well, approaching things from the opposite side at least
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tantek Thanks kylewm. We're very focused on getting things working quicker, rather than large general flexible complex systems ;)
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kylewm So bret I admit that I'd looked at your site and repo before, but I couldn't figure out how you syndicate to twitter for example...is that done by rake maybe?
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bret I.... just started doing that. Manual
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bret runs
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kylewm lol
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bret like i said, not sure exactly how to approach that one with jekyll
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tantek Bret perhaps add that to our Jekyll page?
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bret k
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bret.io created /jekyll (+20) "Redirected page to [[Jekyll]]" (view diff)
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kylewm It does seem possible...like if you had a little script that took a bare post, posted it to twitter/whatever, and then updated the .md file with the permalink
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kylewm I suppose it could also send the webmention ping thing at that point?
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bret there are lots of tricks you could come up with
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kylewm out of curiosity, what are you thinking of migrating to?
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bret not sure, probrably to some webframework I want to learn. I was thinking express
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kylewm cool
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bret.io edited /Jekyll (+113) "/* Cons */" (view diff)
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kylewm thanks for the input guys, I will report back with progress :)
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kylewm g'night!
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bret kylewm, I was thinking about doing some tricky things like posse and webmention scripts, but how do you define a clear event when you wan those things to happen? It began to feel like I was designing around self imposed restrictions
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tantek good evening indiewebcamp!
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tantek is reviewing today's log to see if there's more worth capturing to the wiki
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tantek !tell barnabywalters how did you end up just recreating jQuery in PHP? I thought we had settled on a very few simple HTML/JS template insertion primitives. re: /templates
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek.com created /templates (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /template (+1084) "other template formats, eRuby, Haml, indieweb opinions" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /template (+446) "/* Other template formats */ add Liquid, indieweb opinion of" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+545) "/* FAQ */ Should webmentions be sent for embeds" (view diff)
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tantek !tell barnabywalters does Taproot send webmentions for embeds? http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Should_webmentions_be_sent_for_embeds
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek.com edited /why (+242) "why - lost data due to proprietary sync code/cloud" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /sync (+235) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /sync (+834) "expand with related standards, silo sync services section" (view diff)
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julian` is indiewebcam your full time job or just a side project
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julian` indiewebcamp*
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tantek.com edited /sync (+423) "add Posts about syncing section with Ryan Barrett presentation/talk" (view diff)
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tantek !tell snarfed I feel like I've heard of Simperium before - like in relation to some of the Note saving/syncing solutions/apps that Aaronpk was talking about a few weeks ago.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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shaners julian` I don't think anyone's full time job is indiewebcamping.
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shaners tantek: we've talked before about one letter short codes for post types in URLs, p => photos, b => articles, etc
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shaners i'm torn between r => recipe and r => review
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shaners opinion?
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tantek.com edited /sync (+3021) "related projects, proprietary implementations, indieweb thoughts" (view diff)
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tantek hey shaners
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tantek reviews his shortcodes
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tantek.com created /whistle (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek shaners, right now in tantek.com/w/Whistle#design I have:
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tantek r - review, recommendation, comment regarding/response/rebuttal
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tantek hmm - I may start using that "r" for "reply notes" perhaps starting in 2014
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tantek since I have reply notes but just treat them as "t" right now
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tantek and yet, it would be useful for filtering out replies in some feeds
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tantek (some folks only want to see my original notes, not replies)
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tantek and I may want to only show original notes on my home page
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tantek home page feed / list of recent posts
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tantek rather than cluttering it with replies
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shaners you could give them a tag, then filter on that
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tantek I prefer tags to actually mean something explicitly human typed in
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tantek as opposed to some machine shortcut
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shaners ok
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tantek I like that tags have human intention behind them
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tantek makes them more meaningful/useful
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shaners you could click on the #reply tag to see all replies. or something.
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tantek sure I get how you could implement it
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tantek I just think it's an abuse of tags
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tantek tags IMO are a user-concept
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tantek not to be polluted with implementation-specific stuff like that
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tantek tags are user data
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shaners do you have any plans for a recipe post type and short code?
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tantek for exporting / importing
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tantek I've posted recipes before, so it's possible that I'd post them in the future
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tantek however I'm not sure they're different enough from a blog post / article
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tantek to merit their own "type"
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shaners ok
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tantek I have thought about having a type for "list"
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tantek like "checklist"
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shaners me too
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tantek or a type for a "script"
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 24 minutes ago: I feel like I've heard of Simperium before - like in relation to some of the Note saving/syncing solutions/apps that Aaronpk was talking about a few weeks ago.
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tantek as in a script that a human would follow
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tantek not a movie script
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snarfed tantek: it's from the simplenote people
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snarfed automattic bought them largely for the sync platform
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tantek snarfed, btw - just braindumped a bunch from our IRC conversation today re: sync into the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/sync - please review and feel free to edit/improve!
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tantek snarfed - aha
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snarfed sure!
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tantek great
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tantek snarfed - I think I compared SimpleNotes and Notesy and decided on trying Notesy
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shaners i plan on using k for lists, by proximity to L (since we're both skipping L because of its readability ambiguity)
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tantek I forget why - maybe because it uses Dropbox rather than simperium?
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tantek snarfed - do you use SimpleNotes / Simperium?
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tantek shaners - interesting
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shaners and because K doesn't have any other use yet
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tantek I also see "recipe" as a special type of "script" (for a human to follow)
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snarfed sorry, back
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snarfed no, i don't use simplenote/symperium, i just like the sync platform
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snarfed it's a nontrivial problem, esp for unstructured (text) data, so i appreciate people solving the general case well
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shaners tantek: "h - hyperlink - e(x)ternal reference, link, etc. use of short URL to link to things that I expect to die or move, untrustworthy permalinks."
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shaners why "(x)"?
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tantek probably copy-pasteo from when I may have had that for "x -"
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shaners makes sense
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tantek needs to fix a bunch of things on his wiki
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tantek is constantly demotivated since it's on a hosted wiki silo :(
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shaners uh oh. sounds like someone just found their thanksgiving weekend itch to scratch ;)
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tantek no that would be indieweb event posting on my site
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shaners suuuure
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tantek right at the top: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Working_On
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tantek shaners - hmm - k might not be bad for that - one thought I've had for "k" is for "kit"
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tantek as in a list of things to put into a "kit" of a certain kind
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shaners what's a kit to you?
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tantek I have all kinds of kits
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tantek kits are the folders of stuff
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tantek it's a way of hierarchically organizing physical items to be more usable as chunks
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shaners like your gear list for sxsw?
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tantek yes, like that, except even that consists of several kits
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tantek so a kit can contain items or other kits
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tantek ideally a kit should only have 5-9 things in it for ease of use / remembering
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tantek and thus the utility of creating subkits
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shaners makes sense, for you.
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tantek it's about improving the usability of the real world
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shaners to me, a kit is just a kind of list though.
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tantek yes a kit is a kind of list
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snarfed tantek: how do you handle subjective differences on indiewebcamp pages?
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snarfed most of my revisions would be opinion, not technical :P
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tantek snarfed - we've tried to capture multiple opinions
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tantek on various topics
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snarfed ok! shall i add my opinions signed with my name? or we can talk about them here and try to come to consensus language?
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tantek snarfed - what's a specific example?
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tantek let's work through that for illustrative purposes
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snarfed sure!
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snarfed so, android's and mavericks' power-aware schedulers are fact, not anecdote/rumor
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tantek oh so fix that and add a citation!
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snarfed citations, got it
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snarfed (sorry for the hand holding, i don't have much experience w/wikipedia-style editing)
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tantek it's no trouble at all
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tantek you're asking all the right questions
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tantek I'm an intermediate at it myself. tommorris is the real expert on that kind of thing.
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snarfed got it
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snarfed and re "Routing everything through a central authority" being bad for performance/battery life, was that partially inspired by apple's dropping usb support in favor of network/icloud?
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snarfed i think people would generally agree that usb is faster/less power than network
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snarfed but not necessarily that centralized network is slower/worse battery than decentralized
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tantek snarfed - yeah - I have had bad (anecdotal) experience with cloud/sync based services/software
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tantek with abusing bandwidth and thus draining battery faster than anything else
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snarfed ok. but the comparison point is with wired sync, not with decentralized network sync, right?
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tantek like a mifi that normally gets 4-5 hours being cooked in 30 minutes because kevinmarks had all his cloud services syncing over it
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snarfed heh
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tantek it's why I minimize any/all cloud syncing on all my mobile devices
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tantek I value battery life more
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snarfed ok, i'll edit in a bit
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snarfed thanks!
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tantek I think the criticism of "central authority" comes from the same kind of place as the criticism of timesharing systems we discussed at the last Homebrew Website Club meeting
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tantek yes - please do!
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tantek shaners - btw re: kit size of 5-9: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two
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shaners #truefacts
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tantek :)
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shaners #truefax
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shaners #truefaxmachine
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tantek and of course the cautionary scoping of the applicability of 5-9: http://uxmyths.com/post/931925744/myth-23-choices-should-always-be-limited-to-seven
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skinny tantek: heya!
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tantek hey skinny
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tantek did the ux talk conjure you?
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skinny tantek: miss you guys. are any iwc dinners coming up in feb or mar?
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tantek skinny - we're here whenever you miss us ;)
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tantek you might be interested in the Homebrew Website Club meetings that were kicked off last Wednesday, and will be going on every 2 weeks
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tantek I think bret and aaronpk are coordinating with dietrich about doing one in PDX
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tantek 2013-12-04
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Loqi !calc 2013-12-04
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bret nothing is final yet, but it will happen eventually. if not this next meeting hopefully the one after
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shaners i'm working on bookmark posts
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shaners daring fireball / kottke / etc style
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shaners title (link to external site), excerpt, maybe a note
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shaners is this the right use case for h-cite?
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shaners tantek aaronpk benward et al ^^^
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tantek shaners - makes sense
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shaners would the h-cite be inside of an h-entry?
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tantek a bookmark is perhaps the simplest use of a h-cite!
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tantek shaners - do your bookmarks come with tags or a description?
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shaners yes
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tantek (that *you* wrote - not from the bookmark itself)
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shaners yes
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tantek well then, those tags and description would make sense on an h-entry
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tantek or an h-review
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shaners i was thinking h-entry too. just wanted a second opinion
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tantek which has tags, description, and an item
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tantek (item that's being reviewed)
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tantek shaners - it's one of the uses of r
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tantek r - review, recommendation, comment regarding/response/rebuttal - hReview/xfolk
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shaners nods
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snarfed.org edited /sync (-97) "add citations for android, mac os x mavericks scheduler. revise some wording." (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - why did you remove your post?
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snarfed it's only loosely relevant
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tantek ok
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snarfed it's more about high volume data replication and consistency, less about fine grained synchronization of user data
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snarfed thanks for noticing though :P
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tantek snarfed - you posted it in IRC in the syncing thread so I figured it was relevant enough - plus I flipped through the slides
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tantek shaners - in that way a reply is primarily about something (the original post that is being replied to) just as a bookmark is primarily about something (the URL that is being bookmarked)
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snarfed sure. i might be able to find similar and more relevant stuff. if not, i'll add mine back
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tantek cool
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snarfed.org edited /sync (+1410) "add OData, SyncML, Exchange ActiveSync, OT" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /sync (+1) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /sync (+5) "/* Operational transformation */ OT" (view diff)
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@helloanselm Kite is an open source replacement to #gmail: http://khamidou.github.io/kite/ #indieweb #oss (twitter.com/_/status/405599572422295552)
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tantek !tell aaronpk,snarfed I wrote up my iOS Notes data loss experience in a draft blog post - would appreciate your review for any misconceptions about how "sync" could/should work. Post date is set for tomorrow morning - ping me if you're around and can take a look.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek hmm - what 3 people is it going to tell?
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tantek Loqi?
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tantek aaronpk ^^^
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neuro` Good morning #in
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@andrewnotari RT @helloanselm: Kite is an open source replacement to #gmail: http://khamidou.github.io/kite/ #indieweb #oss (twitter.com/_/status/405613837711605760)
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Jihaisse Hello
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Jeena This guy wanted to write yet another FeedReader sync application half a year ago but I was able to convince him to describe a protocol instead which everybody could use to implement a feed sync system https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6798272
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Jeena it still has some issues but I think it looks quite nice
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 5 minutes ago: how did you end up just recreating jQuery in PHP? I thought we had settled on a very few simple HTML/JS template insertion primitives. re: /templates
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 36 minutes ago: does Taproot send webmentions for embeds? http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Should_webmentions_be_sent_for_embeds
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@derbatzen RT @helloanselm: Kite is an open source replacement to #gmail: http://khamidou.github.io/kite/ #indieweb #oss (twitter.com/_/status/405691854215471104)
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 7 hours, 35 minutes ago: I wrote up my iOS Notes data loss experience in a draft blog post - would appreciate your review for any misconceptions about how "sync" could/should work. Post date is set for tomorrow morning - ping me if you're around and can take a look.
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snarfed !tell tantek sure, happy to, just post the link
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed.org edited /sync (+479) "simperium" (view diff)
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aaronpk good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 16 minutes ago: I wrote up my iOS Notes data loss experience in a draft blog post - would appreciate your review for any misconceptions about how "sync" could/should work. Post date is set for tomorrow morning - ping me if you're around and can take a look.
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barnabywalters mafternoon aaronpk
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 22 minutes ago: sure, happy to, just post the link
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tantek must have just missed him
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tantek good morning indiewebcamp!
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barnabywalters morning tantek
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tantek mark your calendars - one week from today, 2013-12-04 18:30 Homebrew Website Club meting
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tantek good morning barnabywalters
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tantek left some questions for you (and other implementers) on the /webmention page
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neuro` Good... not sure yet, need to rebase my time scheduler tantek
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barnabywalters tantek: pretty sure my previous note covers that — currently taproot sends webmentions for all URLs found in the content
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barnabywalters and the in-reply-to URL if any
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tantek regardless of attribute?
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barnabywalters yep, at the moment
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tantek are you just regexing for "http..."
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barnabywalters I’m using the monster regex from cassis
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tantek oh right, hmmm
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barnabywalters but onto rewriting that bit of taproot now, I’ll be making it more sensible
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barnabywalters probably just sending to things linked in <a> elements
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barnabywalters as I haven’t come across anyone doing anything useful with webmentions sent to embeds
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tantek I was trying to figure out a use-case for receiving webmentions of embeds and didn't come up with anything offhand.
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tantek it's sorta like a more polite form of hotlinking
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tantek "FYI I embedded your image here"
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barnabywalters yeah, if people just want to know for analytics webmentions aren’t required as the automatic GETs will show up in server logs anyway
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barnabywalters I was actually thinking of automatically making a server-local copy of any external image I link to
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tantek could make sense
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barnabywalters so if^H^Hwhen it goes away I still have a copy
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tantek also there's no <link> tag in png, jpg etc.
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barnabywalters waterpigs.co.uk has already suffered from missing external images
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tantek so it's unlikely that they'll have any webmention endpoints
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barnabywalters for a variety of reasons
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tantek unless they put it in the http header?
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barnabywalters tantek: indeed, it is difficult to add webmention headers to non-HTML documents
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barnabywalters making it even less likely anyone will do that
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tantek greetings KevinMarks
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tantek I'm getting ready to publish this: http://tantek.com/2013/331/b1/lose-data-apple-ios-notes-five-easy-steps - feedback welcome
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tantek (it's a future post that doesn't yet show up on my feed)
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tantek alrighty, posted: https://twitter.com/t/status/405752471949410305
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@t How To Lose Your Data In Apple iOS Notes In Five Easy Steps: http://tantek.com/2013/331/b1/lose-data-apple-ios-notes-five-easy-steps
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tantek !tell snarfed decided to go ahead and post it, feedback still welcome: http://tantek.com/2013/331/b1/lose-data-apple-ios-notes-five-easy-steps -
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com created /2014/ (+124) "stub" (view diff)
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 21 minutes ago: decided to go ahead and post it, feedback still welcome: http://tantek.com/2013/331/b1/lose-data-apple-ios-notes-five-easy-steps -
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF (+89) "avoid conflict, Esri dev summit" (view diff)
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snarfed !tell tantek great post! you took a different direction than i expected by diving into the UX part
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed i like it
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snarfed !tell tantek also, i doubt it will fit your needs, but i'm obliged to offer https://quip.com/ (my day job) as an option :P
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 1 hour, 1 minute ago: great post! you took a different direction than i expected by diving into the UX part
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 58 minutes ago: also, i doubt it will fit your needs, but i'm obliged to offer https://quip.com/ (my day job) as an option :P
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tantek Thanks snarfed! Will take a look at Quip.
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@RibbonsandTulle RT @lisa298: Out in Business is FREE this weekend, why not read a taster now http://lisafulham298.wordpress.com/2013/09/22/sinful-sunday-trains-stockings-and-suits/ #SuitPorn #Stockings #Erotic #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/405786896368140288)
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KevinMarks barnaby how about a local copy of html pages too? - kinda the way that Ben made tweet embedding work
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KevinMarks I wrote up some thoughts about the direction fo sync a while back: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/05/keep-all-versions.html
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KevinMarks the point is that the use case for deletion is not strong
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KevinMarks see also http://blog.archive.org/2013/10/25/fixing-broken-links/
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KevinMarks archiving public stuff is hard. Archiving private stuff is really hard.
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tommorris giggles at the pornographic namespace conflict. ;)
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KevinMarks the Tim Berners-Lee "eventually every site becomes a porn site" quote?
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KevinMarks oh, the IndieAuth/IndieAuthor thing
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@kevinmarks “The next social network should be decentralized+each person will be the owner of his or her own content.” http://thenextweb.com/socialmedia/2013/11/24/facebook-grandparents-need-next-gen-social-network/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/405798707477504000)
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Loqi [@edsu] @karlpro I'd enjoy reading that
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Loqi also, I love the #rustyweb hashtag
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Loqi nice combo with #indieweb (http://twtr.io/fG1iy8yN4o)
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edsu :-)
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KevinMarks PESOS to IRC, yay
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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KevinMarks LOL - Virgin Atlantic wants booking reaf and first name. Except it concatenates first and middle names and truncates to 16 characters on the backend, without showing this on the front end
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KevinMarks so I have to search for "Christopher Alexan" not Christopher Alexander
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snarfed KevinMarks: funny. reminds me of https://plus.google.com/+RyanBarrett/posts/cG5oXBMCL3B
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KevinMarks I also had to change his age before booking o_O
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tantek KevinMarks - second comment on your keep all versions post is spam
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tantek "I have read this post. collection of post is a nice one … That I will inform about your post to my friends and all the best for your future posts.. "
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tantek LOL
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tantek compliment spam
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KevinMarks I wonder if the US DHS does those photo a day face timelapses with all those entry photos they have of me
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tantek KevinMarks - perhaps you can get them via FOIA request and make an animated GIF
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tantek wow - apparently iCloud is even worse to develop for than use as a user: http://rms2.tumblr.com/post/46505165521/the-gathering-storm-our-travails-with-icloud-sync
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snarfed tantek: most of the comment spam i see these days that gets past filters is compliment spam
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snarfed probably some lesson there :P
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tantek that the spammers have been reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People ?
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snarfed heh
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fmarier.org edited /sync (+332) "/* Related Projects */ add git-annex" (view diff)