#indiewebcamp 2014-01-06

2014-01-06 UTC
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bret Ah crap, meetup.com costs money
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bret.io edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+37) "/* URLs */ Added Calegator event" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+10) "/* URLs */" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+79) "/* RSVP */ RSVP'd" (view diff)
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@Brironic Successfully using Mozilla Persona (also Twitter/G+) via #IndieAuth's OpenID support, just in time for MyOpenID's demise! @aaronpk (twitter.com/_/status/419994953612140544)
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pdurbin yeah. it didn't used to
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@craigrbruce RT @Covata: Covata Safe Share was highlighted in @NetworkWorld’s Product of the Week slideshow 23 Dec 2013:... https://www.facebook.com/covata.ownyourdata/posts/528695303904115 (twitter.com/_/status/420070658630885376)
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etymancer is there a thing like #indiedata? thinking about how evernote is sort of a quarter awesome and three quarters suck and much of the suck is getting access to your own data and...
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cweiske etymancer, the only solution is to either self-host the application, or self-host the data store
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cweiske the first is more used, the latter possible but not widely deployed. see unhosted.org for an example
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aaronpk_ bret: meetup started charging?!
Loqi, squeakytoy2, jancborchardt, amblin, julien51, dvirsky and eschnou joined the channel
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@vrypan Anything #indieweb related going on in London this week? I'll be over for some days. Hackerspaces or coworking spaces I should visit? (twitter.com/_/status/420110984695783424)
schalkneethling, skinny, LauraJ, Acidnerd, glennjones, bnvk, brixen, jonnybarnes, adactio, squeakytoy2 and tobiastom joined the channel
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tobiastom hey.
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tobiastom I have some questions. someone around to help? :)
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tobiastom If I see it correctly, the idea behind all this is to rely on well established technologies. When I post something I format it with micro formats and add it to my feed. when you want to get updates from me you just subscribe to my feed, download the content and parse the micro formats, right?
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jonnybarnes thats the general idea I believe
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tobiastom and if I want to distribute it more realtime like, I support push. If I want your updates more instant, and you do not push, I have to pull more often, right?
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jonnybarnes well, yeah, like email.
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jonnybarnes if your email provider doesnt provide push then you need to set how often to check for new mail
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jonnybarnes I'm falling in love with leafletjs + MapBox
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tobiastom but for example feed readers could not be directly subscribers, because most likely they don't have a URL to notify. So they would need to poll the hub all the time?
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tobiastom also… I download your feed, how am I supposed to see that it's a h-event post, or whatever?
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tobiastom so I would download the feed, check for new URLs, download all of them and then parse the microformats?
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@CashClamber Interested in a #private #socialmedia #newsfeed #webdesign. #POSSE #IndieWebCamp , own your data, syndicate to Fb/Tw! https://twitter.com/CashClamber/status/420158852210769922/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/420158852210769922)
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@carstenpoetter Idno sieht interessant aus: Open Source Social Networking for the Modern Web http://idno.co/?utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=bufferf4ef9&utm_medium=twitter Bsp.: http://werd.io/?utm_source=buffer&utm_campaign=Buffer&utm_content=bufferf4ef9&utm_medium=twitter #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/420161899490451456)
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tobiastom also… how am I supposed to see a difference between a status post and a blog post?
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@martinlindner 2014: Das Jahr von #indieweb, #reclaimopen, #decentralizedweb etc. Wieso gibt es hier keinen dt. #HomebrewWebsiteComputerClub wie in USA? (twitter.com/_/status/420165830555353088)
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@jeena @tobiastom it is just very difficult to find that in the #indieweb wiki :/ (twitter.com/_/status/420175384848916480)
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barnabywalters Jeena: what does “that” refer to? i.e. what is it difficult to find? we’re always looking to make information on the wiki more accessible
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Jeena to tobiastom you can see he's tweet here too https://twitter.com/jeena/status/420175384848916480
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Loqi https://twitter.com/jeena :: @tobiastom it is just very difficult to find that in the #indieweb wiki :/
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barnabywalters I saw the tweet, still not entirely sure what you’re looking for which is difficult to find
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Jeena stuff like https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial
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Jeena or https://www.brid.gy
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barnabywalters hm, true
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barnabywalters they’re both on the projects page, but that is pretty huge
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barnabywalters and it’s difficult to split “stuff I can use” from “random people’s projects which they haven’t open sourced”
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Jeena When I go to the wiki I see a big wall of text. The only practical thing there is "Set up your domain" which tells me to add rel="me" to links to Twitter/Facebook, etc. on my homepage.
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barnabywalters back feed (and so bridge) should certainly be on the building-blocks page
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barnabywalters Jeena: so you’re wanting specific how-to guides?
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barnabywalters e.g. how to accept webmentions, how to set up bridgy
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Jeena Good question, I'm not sure what I really want
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tobiastom IMHO it's needs something different then a wiki.
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Jeena But I'm kind of lost on the Wiki.
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tobiastom the idea (should be) that a wiki is great if you follow the topic for a long time and even contributed to it.
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tobiastom if you are new, or just want to dive in now, the wiki just gives you the feeling jeena did describe: feeling lost.
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Jeena yeah exactly
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tobiastom if I'm new, I have even no idea which link I should pick on the left side (the menu)
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barnabywalters so maybe “getting started” needs to be emphasised
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Jeena under Content Publishing (which is arguably the most important point on that page) it basically says: Install WordPress, it is not clear to me how that will help me to get away from Twitter or Facebook, where I'm there because of the relationships with other people
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Jeena I wasn't either able to find out how I can follow someone and comment or if this is in some way implemented in, say, WordPress or if everything is just some brainstorming right now and not practicable yet
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Jeena haha you see, I am very confused ^^
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Loqi rofl
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Jeena Loqi is mocking me :-p
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Loqi woot!
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barnabywalters Jeena: point taken, the getting started page is a little out of date
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barnabywalters really it should just say “buy a personal domain and join the IRC room”
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barnabywalters and then split the rest of it up into smaller, more specific how-to guides
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Jeena haha yeah ok, that would be a good advice
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barnabywalters then let humans welcome, advise and point towards relevant pages on a case-by-case basis
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Jeena there is the problem that not everybody feels comfortable to use IRC
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Jeena but that could be fixed later on
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barnabywalters Jeena: have you seen http://indiewebify.me at all? that’s aimed at new people, as a guide to getting started
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Jeena Hm, no, first time I see it now
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barnabywalters I’d be interested in any feedback on that too (I’m one of the developers/copy editors)
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tobiastom what the… nope barnabywalters, I've also never seen that. that's pretty cool!
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barnabywalters tobiastom: thanks! so apparently there should be a link to that on the getting started page. adding.
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barnabywalters btw there is a beta version at http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/ which is running a slightly more up-to-date copy, with some new features and improved webmention section
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Getting_Started (-81) "/* Getting Started on the IndieWeb */ removed TransitionalSteps link as it doesn’t exist and isn’t clear what it should include" (view diff)
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@tobiastom If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420184763300085760)
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tobiastom love it.
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tobiastom especially the new one.
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Jeena It is really good, already the first sentence explains what I can expect
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barnabywalters tobiastom: thanks! all feedback/testing welcome :)
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tobiastom barnabywalters: will do.
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tobiastom as I want to webify myself right now, you can even expect some feedback. maybe. :)
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Jeena Hm on the new one, there is the question "What is the IndieWeb?" and a quote and then "Want to get the source code?" which source code, the one of IndieWeb?
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Loqi the IndieWeb is great
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barnabywalters tobiastom: great! what’s your personal domain (if you have one already)?
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tobiastom tobiastom.name, but there's nothing right now. :)
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barnabywalters Jeena: yep, that it a little awkwardly phrased. I’ll move the source code link somewhere out of flow
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Jeena Oh I like the "Level 1", "Level 2" and so on, that really helps
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@janl RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420185968671752192)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Getting_Started (+122) "/* Connect */ stub link to indiewebify.me" (view diff)
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@jeena RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420186064289288192)
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barnabywalters Jeena: that is somewhat related to http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
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barnabywalters which is a bit wordy but might also be useful for newcomers
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Jeena the indiewebify version is so much easier to understand
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barnabywalters it’s tricky to see things from the perspective of a newcomer when you’re not one, so go ahead and be vocal about issues — it’s probably not your fault :)
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@nomadphp RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420186465830592512)
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Jeena when I add the url to the first input tag and press Test, you could copy that to the other input-fields with javascript so I wouldn't need to type it again (if it is appropriate)
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barnabywalters Jeena: indeed, either that or some sort of “stick a URL in here and all the tests get done” would be great to have
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barnabywalters currently we’re building it as lots of little parts but I certainly want to pull them all together into a single step if possible
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Category:building-blocks (+207) "/* Syndication */ added section on backfeed" (view diff)
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tobiastom barnabywalters: I don't think that is a good idea.
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barnabywalters tobiastom: having a one-step test?
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tobiastom yep.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Bridgy (+15) "/* See Also */ linked to backfeed" (view diff)
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tobiastom maybe optional or something, but what I really like about it is: I'm new here, what's the indie web about. I want to start with it! ok, let's complete step 1. done that, great. now step 2!
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Jeena yeah, it is quite nice to test one thing after another
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tobiastom maybe more like a game.
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barnabywalters tobiastom: yep, the incremental approach will never go away
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tobiastom ok, good. :)
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Jeena I just found out that my h-card lacks a p-note!
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barnabywalters the one-step approach would be for people who already have a web presence to say “okay, this is what I’ve got, what should I do next?”
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tobiastom barnabywalters: yeah, nice idea as well!
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Jeena after a test, how do I come back to the main page?
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barnabywalters hm, good point, there is no homepage link
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barnabywalters or “next”, for that matter, which makes sense if it’s a sequence
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barnabywalters it shall be added
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Jeena I'll open a issue
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barnabywalters thanks!
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Jeena Ok, let us fix h-entry for my blog
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Jeena I wonder why the p-author in http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry is a <a>-tag without name or/and href attributes
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barnabywalters hm, I probably thought it was simpler like that. it should really have a href for clarity
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barnabywalters <a name=""> is deprecated
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tobiastom barnabywalters: you write »Markup your content (Posts, Articles, Notes, etc...) with microformats2«. how are posts, articles and notes differentiated?
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@CarstenRose RT @martinlindner: 2014: Das Jahr von #indieweb, #reclaimopen, #decentralizedweb etc. Wieso gibt es hier keinen dt. #HomebrewWebsiteCompute… (twitter.com/_/status/420193592666505216)
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barnabywalters tobiastom: posts refer to pretty much anything you post on your site, of which notes and articles are subsets
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barnabywalters typically “article” refers to a medium to long form “blog post” like thing with a name, and a note is more like a tweet or status update
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barnabywalters but really the line is very blurry
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tobiastom yes, sorry, I wasn't clear. how do I (via micro formats) differentiate notes from articles?
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barnabywalters not a problem :) when marking up posts just mark up anything which makes sense, and let people parsing your content figure out what it is
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barnabywalters you can use class="h-as-note" or h-as-article (as meaning activity streams) but in practise it’s not very useful
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barnabywalters better to let the content speak for itself
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tobiastom yeah, about that…
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tobiastom now you opened the box and have to live with my questions… :)
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Jeena hehe
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tobiastom IMHO the end goal should be that we have a e.g. twitter like application on our devices. I could easily post some note (twitter) or article (blogger) there. maybe some image (instagram), and whatever. In reverse, I would expect to receive the same stuff from the people I subscribed to (I follow).
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tobiastom So, from that I understand the best way right now would be to a.) use activity streams or b.) wait for feed updates, download the content of the new items from the source URL, parse micro formats and display them somehow optimal.
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tobiastom if everybody uses their own classes for notes, images and whatever, that will never work.
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tobiastom this is really not an offensive question, but aren't we doing this stuff for humans?
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barnabywalters tobiastom: indeed we are doing this for humans :)
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barnabywalters what doe you mean by “everyone using their own classes for notes, images and whatever”?
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barnabywalters s/doe/do
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: what do you mean by “everyone using their own classes for notes, images and whatever”?
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barnabywalters the first part of what you describe is being built, to various degrees of completion
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barnabywalters people are just starting working on the reader/subscriber parts
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barnabywalters as up until now using twitter or RSS readers has been adequate
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tobiastom ah, h-as-note is kind of defined in http://indiewebcamp.com/h-as-note#Use_with_microformats2, didn't know that. for get that remark :)
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Jeena he means h-as-note h-as-instagramimage h-as-foo
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tobiastom yeah, what Jeena said.
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barnabywalters but now people are posting richer indieweb content and having richer interactions, we’re starting to build better readers
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barnabywalters ah, yep — I can't imagine h-as-instagramimage ever existing
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Jeena about that, is there any specific reader yet or is it the webbrowser for now?
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barnabywalters unless instagram images are significantly different to other images in structure or UI
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Jeena they are squares!
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barnabywalters which is part of the reason such explicit “types” are not very useful
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barnabywalters and instead to just treat everything as a post (h-entry) which might have various different properties (p-name, e-content, u-image if it’s a photo)
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barnabywalters and then figure out what it is from those
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barnabywalters so for readers, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, display it like a duck
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tobiastom barnabywalters: yeah, I was talking about that with Jeena before. I don't think that it makes much sense to subscribe to everything. Maybe Jeena posts useless notes (hundreds a day), but once a month a pretty great article, how can I only subscribe to the articles? different URLs?
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Jeena my notes are never useless
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tobiastom ;)
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barnabywalters tobiastom: that’s a theoretical, human problem which will be fixed if it actually exists
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KartikPrabhu tobiastom: I think people post notes and articles feeds and different URL anyway
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jonnybarnes realy enjoyed this TED talk by Sir Tim Berners-Lee on linked data this morning: http://www.ted.com/talks/tim_berners_lee_on_the_next_web.html
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KartikPrabhu i meant on different URLs
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jonnybarnes touches on what the indieweb is about
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barnabywalters i.e. wait until you *are* subscribed to someone and you *do* only want to see one post “type” from them, then we’ll figure out a good way of doing it
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tobiastom KartikPrabhu: I really don't think that different Urls are the solution. I for myself also want real humans, without a technical background, inside the indieweb.
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Jeena the "Add URLs of POSSEd copies!" warning(?) here http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2Fbrainfuck tells me to put links to for example Google+ and Facebook entries where I posted the same content?
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barnabywalters it’s more of a suggestion :)
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barnabywalters if you want to POSSE copies, then that’s how to mark them up
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tobiastom Hm. I think I would disagree with that way of working, but ok, maybe I'm just wrong.
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Jeena I'm just not sure what "POSSE copies" mean
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tobiastom http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE :)
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KartikPrabhu tobiastom: then as barnabywalters said. We can just wait till real humans start doing said thing before solving a problem that doesn't exist yet
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Jeena "Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere" copies?
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barnabywalters Jeena: POSSE tends to get used as a verb
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barnabywalters e.g. “POSSE to twitter, POSSEd copies”
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Jeena aah
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tobiastom if that problem arrises for me, what is the supposed way to handle it? I just implement it and document it, and hope others like it?
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jonnybarnes yeah, put what you do on the indiewebcamp wiki
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barnabywalters tobiastom: something like that, yep
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jonnybarnes other people might then suggest improvements
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barnabywalters that’s how most indieweb technologies have been developed — someone makes something cool, starts using it on their personal site and documents it. others discuss, implement, improve, etc.
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barnabywalters it keeps things grounded and productive
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jonnybarnes hey barnabywalters, I see you are using cloudmade's tiles on the maps on your site. Do you have to pay to use them?
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: nope, they’re free tilesets
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tobiastom barnabywalters: are these mockups still available somewhere? http://indiewebcamp.com/reader#Barnaby_Walters.27_feedreader
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@vbachev RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420200520230666240)
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barnabywalters tobiastom: nope, but I’m actually working on a feed-reader sort of thing building on those now
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barnabywalters it’s a mixture of a feed reader and a flow-based programming environment
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barnabywalters ugly, unstyled homepage: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters, what's a gurdy?
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Jeena ok, next step is a bigger one webmentions, I already have pingback implemented, let us see how I can fix that
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: a hurdy gurdy! see also http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/?tagged=gurdy and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy_gurdy
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barnabywalters Jeena: if you already built pingback, webmention is way easier ;)
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: my one in particular looks like this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1482/
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tobiastom ok, thank you all for now. I have to get back to some work… :)
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barnabywalters simple indieweb feed demo: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/feed/ and “source code”: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/feed/edit
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barnabywalters more complex: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/people-ive-talked-to-recently/ and http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/people-ive-talked-to-recently/edit
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tobiastom I assume I would need to login, right?
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barnabywalters tobiastom: oh, is it giving you authentication hassle?
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tobiastom »Some error (cryptic-code-number: 403) has occurred, and I haven’t yet made this page very helpful about fixing it. My apologies.«
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barnabywalters you should be able to see it okay without logging in, just not save any changes
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Loqi yea
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barnabywalters oh dammit, I’ll fix that, but not right now
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tobiastom ok, thanks.
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tobiastom will try it again later.
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tobiastom oh, nope. I have one more question… not sure if that's right to ask it here:
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tobiastom activitystreams seems to be available in 2.0 in JSON only. is the ATOM one not developed any further and for that deprecated?
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barnabywalters tobiastom: pretty sure the ATOM serialisation is deprecated, but I’m not an activitystreams expert
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tobiastom I did like that idea of having one feed only.
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barnabywalters tobiastom: with microformats2, your homepage HTML is your one true feed
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barnabywalters with the added benefit of working in browsers
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tobiastom so in theory rss and atom and all are deprecated?
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barnabywalters tobiastom: that’s one of the goals of microformats
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barnabywalters and what a few people here are doing
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barnabywalters e.g. my feed reader just consumes microformats for now, and all of my ATOM feeds (for back compatibility) are generated from microformats markup
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barnabywalters so there’s less to maintain
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tobiastom and you expect all the feed readers to support microformats at some point?
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tobiastom not sure what I think about that. but it's definitely a step back from all the API silos we create now.
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barnabywalters tobiastom: eventually, if we continue adding more and more value, ease of authoring and richness of information
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jihais.se edited /User:Jihais.se (+116) "/* My IndieWeb Setup */" (view diff)
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Jeena I wasn't aware of that goal actually.
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tobiastom I wasn't either.
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tobiastom to be honest I'm pretty shocked right now, but I can understand why.
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barnabywalters btw http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ is the service I use for converting microformats2 to ATOM
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Jeena the cool thing will also be that we won't need all the <link>s for facebook with og:author or what not
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Jeena if they just could get the info from microformats
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@jihaisse @Pierre_A Tout est lá : http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Jihais.se (twitter.com/_/status/420206325469962240)
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barnabywalters Jeena: indeed! with the added benefit of it being more easily debuggable and human-visible
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tobiastom hm. even pagination would be possible with rel="next|prev"
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barnabywalters tobiastom: exactly ;)
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Jeena one more question, how should I mark up my home page with the index?
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Jeena I only have links to the articles there https://jeena.net
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barnabywalters Jeena: just mark them up with h-entry but with no content
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Jeena and I assume http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ wants the url to that index page?
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barnabywalters Jeena: yep, that service will look for an h-feed or a bunch of h-entries and covert them into an ATOM
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barnabywalters feed
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barnabywalters got to go now, good afternoon!
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Jeena ah so there is some special h-feed
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tobiastom same to you
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tobiastom thanks again!
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Jeena ok thanks b...
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tobiastom hm. but the argument about having less to maintain is not true. we now have to maintain the activitystream (JSON) feed.
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cweiske people here try to get rid of it
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cweiske and want to require the feed readers only to read the html files as the users do
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tobiastom hm. I'm scared.
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cweiske the consensus here seems to be to make it easy for the publisher, on the cost of the consumer
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cweiske (not my opinion)
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: to be fair. consumer meaning consuming software not actual readers of the Web. I think
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cweiske yes
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cweiske it's still my opinion that there are more consumers than publishers
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cweiske much more
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cweiske now some people here say that the number of consuming software applications is lower than the number of their instances
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cweiske which is true
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cweiske so the number is maybe not 10000:1, but 100:1
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: true. but that maybe because currently it is easier to consume than to publish
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cweiske still it's more consumers than publishers
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cweiske KartikPrabhu, do you expect there will be more content published than there will be consumers?
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: I would like them to be comparable. But as a realistic expectation, probably not
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cweiske there will always be a huge number of lurkers
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KartikPrabhu but if we have good standardised formats, I don't see why either one should be more difficult than the other
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cweiske the "no duplicated content" doctrine that's ruling this room makes it hard
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cweiske because it means that, instead of having a full-text atom feed, you need a full-text html index page
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tobiastom you always have duplicate content? index vs. details page?
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cweiske s/no duplicate content/don't repeat yourself/
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cweiske this is the doctrine after which atom feeds are bad
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tobiastom why do I repeat myself with a automatic generated atom feed?
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: why is a full-text html page bad compared to a full-text ATOM feed?
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cweiske I don't want a full text page as index page for my human visitors
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cweiske and keep my headline-only index page on http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/
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tobiastom especially on mobile if I have a lot of articles.
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: yes, but then that can be parsed by a microformats-feed-reader and the original articles retrieved just as easily as a full-text ATOM feed
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cweiske I don't want a full text page as index page for my human visitors
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cweiske I
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cweiske I personally
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cweiske I don't want to be restricted by the rules
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: yes. neither do I. I use a title+summary listing too. But I don't see how that is an argument against HTML+microformats vs ATOM
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cweiske where does the microformats feed reader gets it full page feed from then?
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tobiastom KartikPrabhu: one request to the atom, against 21 for one index and 20 articles.
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cweiske without fetching each single page?
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cweiske tobiastom, exactly
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KartikPrabhu cweiske, tobiastom: good point. I wasn't thinking about number of requests. In any case all the feed readers I have used show a title listing and then the full article if I choose to read it. How is that different from what already happens on the Web?
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cweiske because the feed reader fetches them in advance
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cweiske and does not have to fetch the detail url
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cweiske at all
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cweiske because the full-text feed already contains everything
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cweiske many feed readers do this
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: I see. So the number of requests is the issue. Will have to think about that one!
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cweiske plus, people are inventing another format although we already have 4 rss versions and one atom
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tobiastom cweiske: which is not always a good thing. :)
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cweiske of course. rss is crap, from a specification perspective
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cweiske which is why I use atom only
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tobiastom some here.
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tobiastom same.
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: microformats just sits on top of HTML so it is only leveraging all goodness of HTML.
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cweiske and we have thousands of applications that already understand rss and atom
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cweiske all goodness
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cweiske hahahahahaha
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cweiske you can't even use an xml parser for html
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tobiastom cweiske: but you have the DOM!! :)
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KartikPrabhu xml parser for html! why would you want to do that?
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cweiske because a simple sax-based xml reader is much simpler to parse a small atom feed than implementing a html5-conform forgiving html parser?
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cweiske compare the specs
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cweiske this again is a excess of the "make it easy for publishers" rule
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KartikPrabhu this seems to be going back to the publisher vs consumer debate
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cweiske indeed. I already discussed this half a dozen times here without result.
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: Of course, I'm no expert on these things. Still figuring the whole indieweb thing as I go along. Still nothing like a good discussion to start the day!
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tobiastom I don't even know of the idea about writing HTML to publish stuff should be rethought.
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tobiastom As we all tend to agree we want everybody to collaborate to the web. even HTML, as easy as it seems for us, is a too big hurdle for many people.
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KartikPrabhu tobiastom: do you mean that there should be no markup at all and we should just share plain/text files?
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tobiastom nope. that we should build the right tools that abstract all technical details away. which then could easily generate 5 different rss formats (even if we all don't like them)
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KartikPrabhu there are already editors that can output HTML and possibly other formats from some text version like Markdown. Like: https://editorially.com/
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tobiastom KartikPrabhu: which automatically loose all the semantics needed for microformats.
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KartikPrabhu no. it does n't. Just like editors can generate sematic HTML they can add microformats automatically too
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KartikPrabhu no one does this yet I guess. But I don't see why it is not possible. In fact, lot of people here seem to have cool UIs for making posts on their indie website that does not involve writing any HTML
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KartikPrabhu tobiastom: as an example, here is aaronpk's p3k UI http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k
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tobiastom that's what I ask for. rest tools. right now I do not see any of them really spreaded.
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KartikPrabhu yes it is very much a work in progress. Someone had to develop these nice posting UIs for Facebook and Twitter. But there is no reason that they can't exist on independent websites
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tobiastom I'm just unhappy with the status quo and don't see any progress. :)
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JonathanNeal I was just working on what you might be talking about KartikPrabhu.
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JonathanNeal Or maybe not. I dunno. https://gist.github.com/jonathantneal/8280607
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: We were talking more about how posting on your own site may/may not need html know-how. But this looks like an interesting way to automatically POSSE to Facebook
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: my favorite library for PHP Markdown is https://github.com/michelf/php-markdown
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KartikPrabhu neat. I've been thinking of enabling Markdown posting to my site. Maybe there is a python equivalent I can use... More googling in my future
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@awendt RT @tobiastom: If you are a technical person, this is a pretty great start to the #indieweb I'm talking about: http://indiewebify.me (twitter.com/_/status/420227825036455937)
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (+211) "Fix link to Transitional Steps, move to related section (hosting) and make that about a place for your stuff. Move indiewebify. Undo revision 6374 by [[Special:Contributions/Waterpigs.co.uk|Waterpigs.co.uk]] ([[User talk:Waterpigs.co.uk|talk]])" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (+10) "/* Connect */ almost certainly" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (+82) "see also indiemark" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk: yeah, to start a group it appears to be fee based
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bret $12 a month, but you get to start at $6/mo
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snarfed hey KartikPrabhu! i'm debugging a webmention incompatibility between bridgy and your site
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snarfed details: https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1389031430&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyNQsSCFJlc3BvbnNlIid0YWc6dHdpdHRlci5jb20sMjAxMzo0MTczMTM1NzY0OTY2OTMyNDgM
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snarfed looks like you expect exactly 'Accept: text/html', and 'Accept: */*' doesn't work
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeah, i still haven't gotten around to fixing the accept-header problems!
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snarfed just fyi, you might want to expand it to allow */* and text/json, since the webmention spec says responses are generally (
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snarfed oops, incomplete
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snarfed heh, sorry, forgot i'd already pinged you about that!
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snarfed np
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KartikPrabhu you can mark this as my fault if you are keeping track of these bugs somehow
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snarfed no worries. sorry for nagging!
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KartikPrabhu np. i should really get to fixing that :)
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aaronpk 4 hours 23 minutes until happy birthday barnabywalters!
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 1/6 4:00pm (#5348)
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message on 1/4 at 1:46pm: thanks for the ideas on @-replies, etc! i'll keep them in mind. feel free to file github issues too!
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message on 1/4 at 1:46pm: and good catch on the UTC timestamps! i'll fix.
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tantek thanks snarfed!
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tantek aaronpk - did you not sign in with nickservices?
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aaronpk huh apparently not
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aaronpk i think the big netsplit yesterday confused a lot of things
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@misuba @keturn_hax I shall look into making them an indieauth option. (twitter.com/_/status/420287283514728448)
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tantek reads logs from the weekend.
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tantek hmm, lots of questions in the early AM today - Europeans?
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tantek hmm - in reading this morning's logs - need to ask more "why?" questions in response to new folks asking "how?" questions.
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tantek !tell barnabywalters thanks for answering a lot of good questions this morning (2014-006 PST) and calling out theoretical problems.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek hmm cweiske seems to be quite confused about Atom: "because a simple sax-based xml reader is much simpler to parse a small atom feed" - you can't use an XML parser realistically to parse Atom in the wild - this has been debunked numerous times by authors of actual feed readers.
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tantek looks like we may need better Atom/XML debunking on the wiki to easily reference
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Jeena Can I think about WebMentions like it is just a different implementation of the pingback/trackback idea? As far as I understand I could use the same UI to show webmentions as I use for pingbacks isn't it?
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tantek Jeena - no, because pingback UI was crap.
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Jeena you don't know the UI I did for my Pingback implementation :-p
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tantek true! URL?
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Jeena I assume you're talking about the WordPress UI in the middle of the comments?
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Jeena and with some weird parts of text around the link?
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Jeena I need to find one on my blog first
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tantek yes. the typical / recommended pingback UI is crap.
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tantek hmm - the critique of pingback UI is not in the most discoverable place on the wiki :/
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tantek here for now: http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#Existing_specifications_for_display
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tantek should really be moved to the pingback page itself
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Jeena I had a extra list of Pingbacks above my comments with only the <title> of the page as a link. I assume one could add a date and a excerpt but I didn't like the pingback list being that bloated
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tantek tl;dr: pingback/webmention should not introduce *any* new UI - they should just be plumbing for displaying *comments* as you already do (or as is already a UI convention of comments on posts in general)
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tantek *except* for perhaps a different section for "mentions"
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Jeena http://jeenaparadies.net/weblog/2012/feb/musik-auf-vinyl here is one pingback, sadly the site loads forever because of some PHP which kind of doesn't work like it should
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tantek for pingbacks/webmentions that link to a post but are not in-reply-to it.
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aaronpk tantek: that's a great description
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tantek Jeena - your UI is better than the default pingback UI.
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tantek However, I'd say you should call it "Mentions" (or the German equivalent :) ) rather than "Pingbacks"
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Jeena true
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tantek "pingback" is just engineering plumbing - the user should NEVER see the word "pingbacks" in the UI.
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tantek nor "webmentions" for that matter
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Jeena I was just so proud of it back then because I implemented the whole thing on my own from scratch ^^
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Jeena I am confused about your take on webmentions/Pingback UI. I my mind a mention is not just a comment which would just show up under the post because the post which mentions you often is not only a comment but can be very long and about a whole different topic and only some small part is about your post.
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tantek sorry was switching locations
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tantek Jeena, "implemented the whole thing on my own from scratch" is AWESOME.
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tantek plus - by doing so, and rethinking how pingback should appear, you greatly improved on the default pingback UI.
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tantek regarding the confusion - I'm agreeing with you that mentions and comments are different.
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tantek pingback/webmention can be used to send notifications of *both* types
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Jeena oh ah, I see, yes
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tantek the difference is in whether the source URL has in-reply-to on the link to the target.
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tantek and then presenting comments / mentions differently of course makes sense
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Jeena aah, ok, now I understand
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tantek whether you group them - like you're doing - that's fine
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tantek or some folks prefer to intermingle them in time sequence, but show them differently
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tantek just as "likes" and "reposts" are shown differently
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Jeena yeah
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tantek some folks show all of them (comments, mentions, likes, reposts) in one time-based stream of activity on the post
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tantek it's good to see this variety of experimentation on such UI
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Jeena I agree
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tantek by experimenting broadly and documenting examples, we can encourage others to improve upon what we come up with
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jonnybarnes ok, as someone coming from PHP, how can I add a new element to an array in JS? array[] = variable
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jonnybarnes doesnt work
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Jeena array.push(obj)
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Jeena I find the array[] = foo
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Jeena syntax _really_ strange
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bret javascript is surprisingly easy to get started with, but also totally confusing as you get more into it….
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jonnybarnes thanks
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Jeena but once you get over the confusion it is so cool :D
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jonnybarnes well I’m now stuck :(
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bret Reading through 'the good parts' Some of that stuff is way over my head
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jonnybarnes I'm trying todo a reverse geocode through google's api
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bret And function callbacks still make me doubletake every time I see them
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jonnybarnes and the result is an object with an array called results, and I'm trying to loop though that array
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Jeena there should be some syntax sugar for it but sending functions with a whole scope and variables, etc. for later use is just awesome I think
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Jeena jonnybarnes object and array are different in JavaScript (as in most languages)
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Jeena object is mostly like a dictionary with keys and values, array is just a list with items
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bret what about a for (var index in array) {} ?
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Jeena that is looping over all keys of a object
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bret oh derp
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Jeena and actually should be for(var key in object) {}
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Jeena not index
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Jeena and not array
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jonnybarnes so, given the JSON: https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geocoding/#ReverseGeocoding
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bret Listen to Jeena, not me
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jonnybarnes each result has a formatted_address
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jonnybarnes I want an array of those addresses
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Loqi gives jonnybarnes an array of those addresses
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Jeena you do something like this: for(var i = 0
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Jeena i < myresult.results.length
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Jeena i++) { console.log(myresult.results[i].long_name)
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Jeena }
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Loqi i has 12 karma
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bret Loqi, go home your drunk
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Jeena jonnybarnes let me look at the JSON a little bit closer
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Jeena actually onle the first item in results has a key called formatted_address
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jonnybarnes Jeena, what you said before works :)
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Jeena hehe no, sorry, the formating is a bit odd
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Jeena ah ok hehe
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Jeena and yes you're right every item in results has a formatted_address
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Jeena and long_name is one of the address_components, as I said the JSON is a bit odd formated
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tantek.com edited /pingback (+3013) "/* Problems */ add Poor display section from comments-presentation page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /comments-presentation () "(-1150) /* Existing specifications for display */ subsection for TrackBack display, move pingback display problems to pingback page, link to it" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes I’m starting to enjoy JS!!
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@jihaisse @Pierre_A oui depuis mon blog. #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/420312550266642432)
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Jeena jonnybarnes, if you have questions, don't hesitate to ask :)
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jonnybarnes Jeena, if I have a node, which has children nodeA, nodeB and nodeC, and I run parent.appendChild(newNode), that by default is added after nodeC. How could I add it to be between nodeB and nodeC for example?
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Jeena parent.insertBefore(newNode, nodeC)
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benwerd Grump Twitter making it hard for me to share their pages via the Social API grump https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=953431
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aaronpk benwerd: lol that's hilarilously broken of twitter
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benwerd yeah
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benwerd presumably an artifact of their one-page-ey-ness
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aaronpk ah yeah it totally is
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aaronpk if you click on a tweet permalink, it's set properly, but if you browse to one from the twitter.com home page, then it's set to just twitter.com
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aaronpk so they just need to update the <link> attribute with their JS
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benwerd yep. that fully explains the behavior I'm seeing.
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benwerd I was like, "where's the bug tracker?" and then I remembered Twitter is not an open source project.
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk my twitter bug tracker is benward
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benwerd sent him and @twittereng separate notes. fingers crossed
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk i'm sure he hates being bugged at his personal twitter account about twitter support things, but not really sure of a better option
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benwerd I suspect I'm not his favorite person generally - namespace collisions etc - but yeah, better someone sees it than not
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Jeena I assume there is no test blog or something my webmentions implementation?
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aaronpk you're welcome to test with this: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/10/12/2/indieweb
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aaronpk you should even see your comment appear in realtime
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aaronpk Jeena: ^
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Jeena ah ok thanks :)
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aaronpk but no, there isn't a canonical webmention test server
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aaronpk could be a useful thing to add to indiewebify.me though!
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Jeena true
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Jeena I'll add an issue
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 59 minutes ago: thanks for answering a lot of good questions this morning (2014-006 PST) and calling out theoretical problems.
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barnabywalters tantek: not a problem :) thanks for correcting that link on /Getting_started
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Jeena aaronpk, it seems you're sending 202 even if the source doesn't exist.
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@djp1974 Hey @t as a non-coder and a rank website beginner, how difficult is Twitter/Facebook syndication using BBEdit (or anything else)? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/420342598566309888)
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bret ^^ Working on that issue myself :) Still just getting my storage model working
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vrypan Is anything openwebcamp-related going on this week in London? I'll be there Wed-Fri, I'd love to meet with people working on related projects.
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tantek vrypan - not sure - ask tommorris - not sure who else in the channel is in London. You can check indiewebcamp.com/irc-people to see who else to ping
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Jeena ah aaronpk I see it responds with {"result":"Webmention was queued for processing"}, ok
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vrypan tantek - thanks.
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