#indiewebcamp 2014-02-12

2014-02-12 UTC
snarfed and jedahan joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
did not understand the "a round tuit" joke for the longest time
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@Noleli
@allspiritseve I need to look at this from not-a-phone, but… MT @mcburton: Nice post by @jeena about #indieweb https://jeena.net/indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/433395369938931712)
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@allspiritseve
RT @Noleli: @allspiritseve I need to look at this from not-a-phone, but… MT @mcburton: Nice post by @jeena about #indieweb http://t.co/9p1…
(twitter.com/_/status/433395572792254464)
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Jeena
hm bridgy seems to send wrong people if they repost? https://jeena.net/indieweb#comments (scroll down)
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aaronpk
whoa lots of duplicates too
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aaronpk
what are the wrong people?
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snarfed
wrong people!
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snarfed
ruh roh
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snarfed
looking
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snarfed
the dupes should all have the same uid
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snarfed
Jeena, if you point me at an example of a wrong person, i can try to debug
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Jeena
I don't think I look at the UID, only at the source URL
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aaronpk
should also be the same, right?
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Jeena
Sadly I don't quite have the time to debug right now :-(
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snarfed
Jeena: np! no hurry. sorry for the trouble
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snarfed
happy to help whenever you do have time
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gRegor`
Jeena: I just read your post. I haven't kept up with Tent.io in months
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gRegor`
what happened with them and their community?
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@AdamFeldman
RT @Noleli: @allspiritseve I need to look at this from not-a-phone, but… MT @mcburton: Nice post by @jeena about #indieweb http://t.co/9p1…
(twitter.com/_/status/433399905701212160)
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@nxD4n
could #webmention , indieauth used to send encrypted message from one domain to other? Any ideas? /cc @pfefferle http://nxd4n.nixekinder.be/?p=3300
(twitter.com/_/status/433401085890293760)
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gRegor`
Does Loqi just pick up "indieweb" on twitter, or does it have to be the hashtag?
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aaronpk
i don't think it needs to be a hashtag
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aaronpk
now we know
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gRegor`
Dang, that was fast. :)
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aaronpk
it's a streaming API search :)
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gRegor`
Nice
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tantek
just mentions, including inside URLs
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tantek.com
edited /site-deaths (+196) "/* 2013 */ ClaimID ceased operations"
(view diff)
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@AnonHiskia
Sign-up page is up for the next week's Homebrew Website Club meetup @MozSF & @ESRIPDX: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club … (ttk.me t4US1)
(twitter.com/_/status/433448036790857728)
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@AnonHiskia
much #IndieWeb Bridgy & #IndieAuth progress! Come to 6:30pm Homebrew Website Club in SF & Portland TONIGHT: http://tantek.com/2014/029/t1/indieweb-progress-bridgy-indieauth-homebrew-tonight
(twitter.com/_/status/433448090050101248)
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@gRegorLove
@starvfilmcritic You're on @Squarespace, right? Should see if they'll implement webmention.
(twitter.com/_/status/433465821126332416)
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caseorganic.com
edited /events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club (+80) "/* RSVP */ Added Amber Case RSVP to Portland event"
(view diff)
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caseorganic.com
edited /User:Caseorganic.com (+578) "/* Amber Case */ Added updated talks and talk links"
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aaronpk
snarfed: lol, was reading your paperless office article, got half way through, clicked a link, got distracted by something else, went back to your post to pick up where I left off. First words I read: "Not many people have attention spans that long"
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snarfed
haha, love it
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aaronpk
Good post too
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aaronpk
pfenwick: saw your cool signup to get travel alerts thing! So cool!
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snarfed
thanks!
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pfenwick
aaronpk: Thanks! There's still a Simple Matter Of Code that I need to write to stick onto the back of it, but all that's required there is a twilio end-point for exobrain (about 20 lines of code), and a connector (about another 20 lines). I'm hoping I can do that at the airport. :)
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aaronpk
Haha awesome.
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pfenwick
aaronpk: You'll know when it's working because you'll start getting notifications of my movements to your phone. :)
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aaronpk
pfenwick: I've been wanting to do this kind of thing too ever since Dopplr disappeared!
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aaronpk
Do you consider this information public? i.e. would you publish your travel plans on your own website?
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pfenwick
aaronpk: "Not exactly private, not exactly public." So things like "I'll be in $city on $date" is reasonably public, whereas "I'm at SE Grind working on my slides at 2am" is a little more private.
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pfenwick
Having said that, if I want to go somewhere and not receive attention, then it tends to be private. But I miss dopplr too, I loved it.
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aaronpk
Cool. So your macro view is public?
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pfenwick
aaronpk: Unless I have a reason to make it otherwise. To an extent my lifestyle depends upon people knowing where I'll be.
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aaronpk
Your FB post of cities and dates is great. I'm super interested in what that would look like on your own site, I'm trying to find time to publish my next set of travel in a way that is actionable to people!
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Jeena
It happened what I was preparing for for so long, someone webmentioned a normal article of mine wit a article of his own, not with a note https://jeena.net/indie-notes-reader#comments so hm my website handled it ok but not great, will need to improve on that.
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cweiske
why do you have the font size that large?
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cweiske
I have to zoom out to be able to read it properly
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Jeena
because I am 35 and old people like me tend to go blind
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cweiske
can't you rely on the browser's default font size?
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Jeena
hm which font do you see in your browser?
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Jeena
http://jeena.net/s/latest.png is how it looks with Gill Sans, which is much thinner, hm need to fix it in some way, thanks for mentioning it
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cweiske
I don't set a font size on my blog
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cweiske
and thus use the browser's default size
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cweiske
so people simply can customize their browser and have a larger text on my blog
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KartikPrabhu
Jeena: I love the font size! Maybe I read from further away from the screen than most people
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KartikPrabhu
in fact I usually have to zoom-in to most websites
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cweiske
KartikPrabhu, increase your browser's default font size
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: I know but then all the folks who have nice font-size set like Jeena looken too big! I like the website author to decide.
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cweiske
the website author should decide that you need a bigger font size?
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KartikPrabhu
They can decide whatever they want it to be. I'll adjust it depending on what I'm reading.
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cweiske
i'd rather have my browser automatically size the font sizes to my liking
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KartikPrabhu
hmm that would be an interesting poll
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KartikPrabhu
actually here is an indieweb question: Has anyone setup an indieweb poll system, where people can vote using indieauth or their own website via mentions?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - you can essentially do that with news.indiewebcamp.com
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KartikPrabhu
looks that up!
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tantek
you can post articles there via webmention, and then vote up/down via any indieauth sign-in
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KartikPrabhu
how do you vote down? I only see the up arrow on sigin
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tantek
oh maybe you can only vote up
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KartikPrabhu
nonetheless that is another swell thing I didn't know about!
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KartikPrabhu
now I am quite interested in a poll system with graphs and all that that works with indieauth! Maybe after I get other indie-stuff working! Damn my indie-to-do-list is getting long
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KartikPrabhu
hi Jihaisse
eschnou, LauraJ, josephboyle, dvirsky_, benatkin, bnvk, pfenwick, Sebastien-L, glennjones, marcthie_, barnabywalters, pfefferle, pasevin and tobiastom joined the channel
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Jeena
gRegor` I had to leave the community because they broke the possibility to host your own server with a update and when I asked half a year later when it will be possible again to self host under your own domain, etc. they said that this is not a priority for them. Today, soon a year later I still can not self host under my domain because of bugs in the protocoll and their server software https://github.com/cupcake/bugs/issues/31
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Jeena
cweiske, where does one set the default font size in Firefox? Ah, Perferences -> Content -> Fonts & Colors -> Size, I see hm.
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Jeena
Hm, is there _any_ website which changes its font size according to my font size default setting? I went through my 20 open tabs and only 2 changed the font size, but then only in one part of the website so it looked rediciolous :-/
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cweiske
probably not many, because their designers want full control
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Jeena
:-/ here is another which resizes all text but doesn't the background of the header so it is white on white
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Jeena
stackoverflow does it like it should be done
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@tobiastom
Maybe there is hope for the #indieweb. @jkphl is installing his own jabber server and there was no convincing needed. None at all! :)
(twitter.com/_/status/433597978100903936)
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ehlovader
Jeena, you might be able to change your fonts using zoom: don't think you can do that globally
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ehlovader
but you can per site
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ehlovader
and like cweiske said, most designers, themes etc.. they aren't using ems
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ehlovader
even the ones that are using ems tend to set the font size on the body,html
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Jeena
I've been using em for ages, but then since every browser impmented zoom in the right way I stopped.
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cweiske
em, ex and rem is still the right way in my eyes
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cweiske
especially rem
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Jeena
my old website would work like a charm for cweiske http://jeenaparadies.net/
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tobiastom
Jeena: what are you using today?
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ehlovader
so Jeena that cupcake...
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ehlovader
can you not host it? or just that there are serious issues with hosting it
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Jeena
tobiastom px somewhere
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ehlovader
because if they are the only ones who can host it succesfully then it isn't very decentralized like their mission statement suggests.
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Jeena
ehlovader I can host it if I use a new domain, because mine is already in the database of the other users and I cant get them to refollow me (not automatically and not manually) and I can not follow them (not manually and not automatically)
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ehlovader
so that is tent though?
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ehlovader
that you host?
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Jeena
or perhaps
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ehlovader
or tent is only important if you go and write your own cupcatke
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ehlovader
hmm, interesting... and that sucks, so they get tokens or something?
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ehlovader
and you can't invalidate them
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ehlovader
even if you are on your same domain?
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Jeena
it is like email, most of the people are using some provider and their clients, many of them use 3rd party clients (like Mail.app or Thunderbird) and some host their own (mail/tent) server.
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Jeena
ehlovader exactly, even if I own the domain there is no way for me to invalidate this subscriptions
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Jeena
in my eyes it is a protocol flaw, they said that this is a security feature.
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Jeena
and that it is not a priority for them to fix that.
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Jeena
So we had to part ways :-/
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ehlovader
could you even part ways though
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ehlovader
I mean once they were subscribed to you, they will always be subscribed to you
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ehlovader
what was the "security" part of that
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ehlovader
it sounds like an insecurity
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Jeena
I have to check if I can find the issue on github
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Jeena
I don't quite remember anymore
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ehlovader
would it or could it be possible to forcibly lock everyone out of a server by "subscribing" with incorrect info?
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ehlovader
or similar
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ehlovader
I assume simply removing the sub manually works right
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Jeena
sort of
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Jeena
if you have access to the database then yes
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Jeena
most of the users are on the server of the one provider, cupcake, and thus have no access to the database
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Jeena
and there is (still) no UI for it
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Jeena
https://jeena.net/s/tent-subscription-bug.png Jonathans last answer to me words it as if it were not that big of a deal "We are still thinking about the best long-term solution for the protocol." but keep in mind that this discussion went on several months after this bug was introduced.
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tobiastom
overall the tent guys don't seem to be very open to any kind of suggestions.
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Jeena
that is true, while there I tried to communicate that in some way with a blog post https://jeena.net/problems-tent but they didn't even understand my concerns
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tobiastom
I think that is very much ok not to listen to suggestions if they don't like them, but then they have to live with the fact that people will move on.
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jonnybarnes
does anyone know if the hcard::photo property needs to be an image? i.e. an img tag, or can i link to an image with an a tag and add the mf photo class to that link?
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tobiastom
links should work fine, I assume.
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Jeena
Ah here it is https://github.com/tent/tentd/issues/127 and here is the other conversation https://jeena.net/s/tent-subscription-security.png The security thing is that you should not be able to remove/add subscriptions and so on if you overtake the domain (but not the server) from another person. You need the original credentials with which you created the subscriptions. I do have them in a database backup, but because of all those bugs it just
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Jeena
doesn't work.
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michielbdejong
Jeena: how many users are on tent, do you know?
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Jeena
reading it now it is quite funny that he blames us for not backing up the database and both of us who were selfhosting have still backups of the database ^^
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Jeena
right now? I would say about 50. At its peak, several hundred.
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Jeena
abd they have about 17k users who made an account on cupcake
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@voxpelli
@gRegorLove @starvfilmcritic As long as you can add a link-tag and a javascript you can at least use my https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ there
(twitter.com/_/status/433630320672645120)
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michielbdejong
Jeena: ah, that's quite a lot
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michielbdejong
i'm evaluating setting up a non-profit hosting company, offering several different host-it-yourself style software products
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tobiastom
michielbdejong: we have something "like" that in germany: https://uberspace.de
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michielbdejong
so i'm looking at indieweb software, personal cloud software on the other, and everything inbetween
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tobiastom
problem is: you are still relying on a 3rd party… :)
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michielbdejong
yeah, but afiak they're not non-profit?
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michielbdejong
tobiastom: yeah actually the name i was thinking if is 'Third Party People' :)
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michielbdejong
it would be more like Indie Web for Dummies.
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tobiastom
Hm. not sure about the non-profit. but you might be right.
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michielbdejong
afaik only riseup are doing this, and a few small bespoke providers, who arrange one-off colo deals on a non-profit basis
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michielbdejong
the goal would be to make things like webmention easier to obtain for non-techies
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tobiastom
to be honest: why should I trust you? with this companies I see that they earn money from me, so they have a reason to continue.
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michielbdejong
yeah, good point
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michielbdejong
maybe there will be no market, for that reason
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michielbdejong
but someone has to try that out :)
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barnabywalters
IMO a charity is probably not the best model
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michielbdejong
if there turns out to be no market, then i can blog about that conclusion :)
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tobiastom
what er need would be a »friends host for their friends« campaign. Everybody knows a tech savy person that can host stuff for them.
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barnabywalters
a hosting company which is transparent and open, with amazing customer service and indieweb software installed by default…
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: why not?
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: right
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barnabywalters
…with easy domain name management, might be very wellr ecieved
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: …with easy domain name management, might be very well recieved
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barnabywalters
currently hypothetical long-term plan for taproot is to have a service where people put their domain name and credit card details in a form, and get an installation of taproot they can use
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: i just read http://john.onolan.org/what-it-means-to-be-non-profit/ today, it covers my opinion about for-profit vs non-profit quite well i guess
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barnabywalters
no reason you couldn’t do that now with idno
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: ah that's also an interesting approach
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barnabywalters
pain points which would need to be handled exceedingly well: transferral of existing domain names, importing of data from other networks
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michielbdejong
tobiastom: i'm not sure everybody knows a tech savvy person who can host stuff for them. when people ask me where to host their website, i don't usually say "i'll do it for you" - and the times i do, i usually end up regretting that promise ;)
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barnabywalters
michielbdejong: heh, that matches my experiences with “hosted by a techie friend”
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tobiastom
michielbdejong: yeah, I agree. we could end up with the old »you do stuff with computers, can you help me with office« problem.
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: what do you think is the benefit of for-profit? that people will trust it better to have an incentive to stay in business and to deliver a quality product?
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michielbdejong
at this point i could still opt for for-profit. i think the difference is not that big in practice
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tobiastom
michielbdejong: but that's kind of easy to solve: only host what you could support. when you like a software and it's easy for you to manage it, why not. if you don't like wordpress, just don't do it.
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barnabywalters
michielbdejong: I think that John O’Nolan blog post sums it up quite well — not a charity, but not for-profit either
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michielbdejong
in both cases i would do a freemium model, probably
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barnabywalters
just a transparent, sustainable company
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tobiastom
barnabywalters: regarding taproot, isn't that the same scenery we have with twitter today?
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: right. yes, like Mozilla i guess.
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barnabywalters
michielbdejong: I’m not interested in freemium because it usually involves giving people subdomains
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tobiastom
except that it is not paid and a totally different business model, but in theory you would own the data of all your subscribers.
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barnabywalters
then “upgrading” to having an actual domain name
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barnabywalters
tobiastom: how so? taproot is just publishing software like any other. the hosted service would be a simple UI over domain name + web hosting
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: yes. i like to call it an independent tld :) i got http://nic.un.ht/ for the purpose
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tobiastom
freemium is stupid. you have to invest a lot of time supporting the people that will never pay anyways and the people who give you money will not get the attention of you that they deserv.
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michielbdejong
but you reach a lot of people
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michielbdejong
which is my goal
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tobiastom
michielbdejong: better 10 paying people that you can build upon, the 10000 who will never give you a cent.
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michielbdejong
get some critical mass behind some of the cool stuff people are developing in indieweb and open source
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tobiastom
barnabywalters: so you would also provide them FTP access and whatever they ask for?
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barnabywalters
personal domain names are so central to the indieweb approach that it’s a contradiction to give out free subdomains to people for anything other than testing
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barnabywalters
in which case a hosted demo, or publicly-viewable UIs (which taproot already has) is a more sustainable approach
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barnabywalters
tobiastom: no
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michielbdejong
barnabywalters: right, so then you can't call it indie web maybe. but it will support webmention
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barnabywalters
michielbdejong: webmention is only as valuable as the URLs involved
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barnabywalters
silo subdomain URLs are always less stable and usable than personal domains
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barnabywalters
tobiastom: in exactly the same way that shared hosts don’t allow me to install a different operating system or change the network configuration of a machine, my hosted service wouldn’t allow direct FTP access
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barnabywalters
it’s the same set of freedoms, just on a different level of abstraction
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tobiastom
barnabywalters: I agree with you, and I think it's a very good approach, but then it's technical no hosting, isn't it?
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barnabywalters
the important thing is that people can get their content in and out, and that it’s hosted under a domain they control
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barnabywalters
tobiastom: I see it as a logical extrapolation of dedicated -> VPS -> shared hosting -> …
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barnabywalters
each one is still “yours”, you still have control
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tobiastom
ok, I can very much agree to that.
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barnabywalters
there are just a different set of freedoms
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barnabywalters
this is all hypothetical anyway, if I ever build it my opinion might change immediately anyway ;)
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tobiastom
yeah, I like it as well. And I'll copy it shamelessly. :)
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michielbdejong
what about people who don't have access to a credit card? don't we want to serve them?
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michielbdejong
i mean, i think i want to
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michielbdejong
there are whole countries where people can only opt for facebook because they have not enough money, or not the right payment tools
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tobiastom
It's just hard. we could also use paysafe or whatever.
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tobiastom
michielbdejong: which is in that case a good thing :)
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michielbdejong
what is a good thing?
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tobiastom
that people are not able to join facebook.
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barnabywalters
(replace “credit card” with “bitcoin/dogecoin/xcoin” in my summary above)
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michielbdejong
i would run the .un.ht registry like any other tld. i just wouldn't pay ICANN tax. which is probably a problem when you want to get TLS working. but otherwise i think it could come pretty close to a poor man's domain name. definitely different from a twitter handle
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michielbdejong
tobiastom: no, i meant they are *only* able to choose facebook, because facebook signup doesn't require a creditcard, and domain name registration does
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michielbdejong
starting at 2 usd/year for a .info, i think
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tobiastom
oh, yeah. Now I get you.
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tobiastom
but if they have a subdomain from you, they don't own it.
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michielbdejong
yes, they do. just that icann didn't give it its stamp of approval
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michielbdejong
technically, there is no difference between a .un.ht and a .co.uk. the difference is purely organizational
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michielbdejong
they can edit their dns zone and everything
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barnabywalters
michielbdejong: in practise, “ownership” of a domain is a physical thing. Do you offer some UI for them to point the domain name at whatever they want?
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tobiastom
yeah, and then when I don't like you anymore, I cannot transfer it to someone else.
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michielbdejong
well, ideally there would be two or three unrelated registrars
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michielbdejong
let me know if anybody wants to become a .un.ht registrar :)
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barnabywalters
I’m doing some experiments with namecoin at the moment, to see if that might be a viable decentralised DNS alternative
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michielbdejong
i've also been thinking, i could set it up so that every user is a registrar by default
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michielbdejong
has the downside though that it requires a browser plugin, right?
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barnabywalters
michielbdejong: that sounds interesting, how would that work in practise?
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michielbdejong
well, there is this protocol, let me look it up
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barnabywalters
michielbdejong: yeah, at the moment it requires either network config changes, DNS changes, browser changes or browsing through a proxy
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barnabywalters
none of which are particularly good solutions
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barnabywalters
hence experimentation ;)
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michielbdejong
so i would allow people to at least switch between different resellers of my fake domain names :)
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michielbdejong
i realize it's not the real thing, but it's at good as it gets, i think, if we want any chance of indie web values getting a foothold in the third world.
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michielbdejong
and also for instance first-world teenagers and students, who don't have a creditcard yet, or people don't want to use it online
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michielbdejong
my main reason to make it not for profit is i think that making money is really not an ambition for me personally. if i had a sports car collection hobby to pay for, then maybe i would do it for-profit so that i could get rich in the process :)
eschnou, pasevin, benprew, tantek, iangreenleaf, caseorganic, jedahan, skinny, squeakytoy, snarfed, paulcp, josephboyle1, cweiske, josephboyle, edrex, bnvk, jonnybarnes, KartikPrabhu and Jeena joined the channel
#
Jeena
This is a very interesting use case: http://andysylvester.com/2014/02/11/my-indieweb-areas-of-interest/ he is sending out webmentions but does not implement microformats
#
Jeena
so there is no author, no title, etc.
#
ehlovader
if not implementing it then what is the point?
#
Loqi
the point is that if the DB gets blown up
#
ehlovader
isn't that a requirement
#
Jeena
I don't think so
#
ehlovader
oh well that makes sense then loqi
#
ehlovader
web mentions force you, the remote site to request that info right?
#
tantek
Jeena, what use case in particular?
#
ehlovader
what information do you have other than the url?
#
tantek
there's a lot in that post
#
Jeena
for my algorithm on how to show the webmention
#
Jeena
I don't mean the content
#
tantek
still confused
#
aaronpk
Jeena: treat it like any other inbound link you would find
#
Jeena
only the metadata because he doesn't mark it up with microformats
#
aaronpk
like even if there was no webmention sent, but you wanted to show a list of some pages that links to yours
#
aaronpk
a webmention is just a proactive way of telling one page that another linked to it
#
tantek
Jeena, then you can list it as a "mention" as aaronpk says
#
tantek
that's discussed on the comment-presentation wiki page
#
tantek
again I ask, what is the specific use-case you are talking about?
#
aaronpk
tantek: he's talking about the fact that that article links to his, but doesn't include microformats, so he's confused abotu what to display on his site (right, Jeena?)
#
ehlovader
I think that showing the domain is best option
#
Jeena
hm yeah, I still do not distinguish between them, but yeah, I really should, you're right, it should just be a list which is saying "and also mentioned was this article on: <a href="..">title...
#
ehlovader
I was going to suggest grabbing or failing over to the meta info, for author or google accounts
#
tantek
shall I write up an "article-name-discovery" algorithm then?
#
ehlovader
but there isn't even that
#
Jeena
yes aaronpk
#
tantek
as I've written up "authorship"?
#
aaronpk
i think a name discovery algorithm would be good
#
tantek
would that be sufficient?
#
aaronpk
tho may not be specific to articles? maybe "page name discovery"?
#
tantek
no we're not going to refer to any invisible metacrap
#
tantek
aaronpk - good point
#
ehlovader
aaronpk, are you behind pin13?
#
ehlovader
or is pin13 a service site that you have some access to
#
aaronpk
it's my domain
#
ehlovader
is it open source?
#
aaronpk
that's just barnaby's php-mf2 parser :)
#
ehlovader
forkable
#
ehlovader
is it a good idea to mirror
#
ehlovader
thought it might be nice to prettify
#
ehlovader
small thing I could give back...
#
aaronpk
prettify?
#
tantek
aaronpk, presumably you have some wrapper HTML/PHP around barnaby's php-mf2 parser :)
#
ehlovader
make it look nicer
#
aaronpk
sure, I can put it on github, it's a tiny bit of code
#
ehlovader
if it is just a wrapper, I can find barnaby's instead
#
ehlovader
and wrap it
#
tantek
heh, it's amazing how much a tiny bit of code helps at times
#
tantek
especially if it's tiny (which usually means better written)
#
ehlovader
it takes a village to raise a standard ;)
#
ehlovader
I like the talk most recently, that one about indieweb, I didn't know the background
#
ehlovader
the fact that there was an attempt for a perfect standard
#
tantek
ehlovader, not a village no. you actually have to ignore what the village is saying, watch what they're doing, and then work with a few *smiths to raise a standard
#
ehlovader
then it kept getting delayed, so then it was proposed to work independantly and like a ratrace
#
tantek
which?
#
ehlovader
creating an open "market" to continuously push each other towards a greater standard, and greater features
#
ehlovader
amber case
#
ehlovader
so when you have implemented webmentions
#
ehlovader
with microformats but not actually provided microformats for your own article
#
ehlovader
are there issues with google/facebook/et al trying to determine the author on the article and or linking to other peoples photos on other people's articles
#
tantek
ehlovader - it's ok, there's market incentive for each incremental implementation of each of feature - that's the only way it works
#
tantek
ehlovader - hah yeah - they screw up all the time with wrong photos etc.
#
ehlovader
I am seeing that it shows that there are author objects here, and I was wondering how it felt about that... http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?q=http%3A%2F%2Fandysylvester.com%2F2014%2F02%2F11%2Fmy-indieweb-areas-of-interest%2F
#
ehlovader
saw that
#
ehlovader
wondered if that had to do with your account state
#
tantek
so yeah, Google's previews/snippets are kind of crap
#
ehlovader
since google results may differe for logged in users or non logged in
#
tantek
they started out ok, at least for their whitelists
#
tantek
but have gotten worse (more rotten) over time
#
tantek
ehlovader - nah, had several friends confirm it. tried it with multiple devices, signed-out, private browsing windows etc.
#
Loqi
rofl
#
ehlovader
billy get to the rofl-choppa
#
ehlovader
or had floaters in my view
#
ehlovader
cleaned my glasses and they made micro different than format
#
ehlovader
which is a strange place to break color
#
tantek
ehlovader, Google's rel=author implementation (consuming) is a bit sketch
#
tantek
they strongly steer people to *only* rel=author link *directly* to a G+ profile URL
#
tantek
their silo profile
#
tantek
which is obviously anti-indieweb
#
tantek
however, what *also* works, but takes a bit more work is:
#
tantek
1. link from your articles/posts with rel=author to your indieweb home page
#
ehlovader
is it possible to rel=author to yours
#
ehlovader
and have that rel author to g+
#
tantek
2. link from your indieweb home page with rel=me to your G+ silo profile
#
ehlovader
or only direct google to g+
#
ehlovader
oh that works
#
tantek
3. be sure your G+ silo profile lists your indieweb home page as another site for you
#
ehlovader
as long as it is only two deep
#
tantek
but they don't document that very well
#
ehlovader
thank you aaronpk, so it is just a short little hook huh
#
ehlovader
what was the first field for? shortening
#
ehlovader
was that through your shortener at pin13?
#
aaronpk
this is just the /mf2/ folder, not the pin13.net index page which has a bunch of other stuff
#
aaronpk
yeah, url shortening
#
ehlovader
is there a package list for composer and indieweb?
#
ehlovader
I just found composer, before I had the occasional run in with it
#
ehlovader
but I am thinking of using it for everything
paulcp joined the channel
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aaronpk
yeah it's great
#
ehlovader
it looks ages better than pear
#
aaronpk
yea :)
#
ehlovader
pear may have actually been the reason I didn't jump on board right away
#
ehlovader
it felt too similar and pear was horrible to maintain and all the libraries always became deprecated and under developed
#
ehlovader
honestly since github, the world has changed
#
ehlovader
it is amazing
#
ehlovader
I wish I was born a few decades later.. all the programming I have had to work for would have been so easy
#
ehlovader
or a decade earlier, so I could have been on that internet boom
KartikPrabhu and hober joined the channel
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tantek.com
created /page-name-discovery (+1497) "stub something quick with dfn, semi-obvious algorithm, and obv FAQ about metacrap"
(view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk, ehlovader, there you go - for your review and critique: http://indiewebcamp.com/page-name-discovery
#
aaronpk
what about if the p-summary is too long?
#
aaronpk
or any values for that matter
#
aaronpk
"too long" being a subjective thing based on the site that is displaying the link
#
ehlovader
sounds like that is something for the site displaying the link
#
ehlovader
css may be a good thing to do there
#
ehlovader
text-overflow: ellipsis
#
aaronpk
yes, the whole algorithm is for the site displaying the link
CheckDavid joined the channel
#
ehlovader
I would tend to suggest that for anyone who wants to keep content on one line or in a certain space but not have it just overflow for no reason
#
ehlovader
tantek, would you not want to default to H1s before or after titles?
#
Jeena
I need to rewrite my webmentions code to deal with the two different things like in-reply-to and just webmention
#
ehlovader
and then domain before untitled?
#
ehlovader
and if you resort to domain, would you want to have it include the full uri
#
ehlovader
or use the uri only, and domain as the "author" if authorship wasn't provided?
#
ehlovader
just playing devils advocate mostly, dumping my mind
#
ehlovader
I do believe the untitled would probably get the author to try and fix their site faster
#
ehlovader
is there a standard for requesting remote sites refresh their webmentions? if they were "read" incorrectly
#
ehlovader
searches the wiki
#
tantek
aaronpk "too long" is already addressed by /comments-presentation
#
aaronpk
maybe point to that then?
#
Jeena
ehlovader if you changed your code you just send another webmention, so the other websites get to know that you did just that
#
tantek
it's in the see also
#
tantek
ehlovader, re: H1. No, I'd rather keep the algorithm simpler until/unless there's some data showing that H1 without h-entry is actually worthy of supporting.
#
ehlovader
oh it is in the spec to say you changed the code? and it replaces existing web mentions
#
ehlovader
google uses h1
#
tantek
ehlovader - well it claims to
#
ehlovader
well yeah
#
ehlovader
or it weighs differently if there is no h1
#
ehlovader
or something
#
tantek
right, can't actually figure out WTF google does
#
tantek
exactly, or something
#
ehlovader
that is the point
#
tantek
google is crap as a source of evidence for markup
#
ehlovader
well when you get crap markup
#
ehlovader
maybe the crap source is the best place to go
#
tantek
because they use (a) secret sauce, (b) white lists of domains, ( c ) delayed results of crawls / algorithm changes
#
ehlovader
otherwise you just say nope, your webmention means nothing to me
#
ehlovader
throw an error to them
#
ehlovader
and tell them to shove off
#
tantek
ehlovader - nope, because none of us have the time to implement crap like google
#
ehlovader
that is an option
#
tantek
better if we keep it simpler (algorithm) and thus motivate publishers to do the right thing if they want their indieweb comments to look right
#
ehlovader
wouldn't they see if they webmentioned you, if your site returned an error
#
tantek
ehlovader, you can ignore any webmentions you want to for any reason
#
ehlovader
that is what I mean
#
ehlovader
forcibly
#
tantek
sure you're free to do that too
#
tantek
right
tilgovi joined the channel
#
ehlovader
like sending a hitman to the whois to "take care of it" when the markup doesn't exist
caseorga_ joined the channel
#
ehlovader
what if you hosted a public shaming site
#
ehlovader
or a portion of your site that listed markup fails you have found
#
ehlovader
and webmentioned back from that page
#
ehlovader
ofc to offer help
#
ehlovader
but a way of making the author aware
#
tantek
haha yes you could do that
#
ehlovader
but more of an indiewatch
#
tantek
example.com/mention-fails
#
tantek
and then send a webmention back to THEM with that source URL
#
tantek
but with better markup obviously
#
ehlovader
well yeah
#
ehlovader
otherwise you could end up in a loop
#
tantek
it would be a service! especially if you listed what their mentions did wrong
#
ehlovader
maye with a limit
#
ehlovader
I think it would be neat
#
tantek
nah - only note fails for webmentions to your actual posts
#
tantek
and ignore webmentions of /mention-fails
#
ehlovader
not the fail
#
tantek
thus no loop
caseorg__ joined the channel
#
ehlovader
is there a way to implement something like that which is not 100% in the open? so they have the chance to remove themselves from your list, or that their site isn't shamed forever
#
tantek.com
edited /page-name-discovery (+197) "/* Algorithm */ add a details note about too long names and how to handle per comments-presentation, since aaronpk asked ;)"
(view diff)
caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek
ehlovader - you could make one-off URLs for them like /mention-fail/their-permalink
#
tantek
that way there is no public "list" at all
#
ehlovader
ah, yeah
#
ehlovader
that would be good
#
tantek
or you could just keep the /mention-fail as only showing the most recent 10 or so fails
#
ehlovader
someone may find them through in-url right? or they shouldn't because of no-folows
#
ehlovader
the public bit would be helpful on an education basis
#
tantek
so they're briefly shamed until someone else pushes them off the list
#
aaronpk
i like that idea
#
ehlovader
but could be embarrasing or bad from a public shaming sort of basis
#
aaronpk
i don't think there's anything shameful about making mistakes :)
#
ehlovader
would suck to be the last person to implement this incorrectly just before everyone is indiewebified
#
ehlovader
everywhere
#
ehlovader
from birth
#
ehlovader
you would end up "that guy" who can't do it
#
tantek
well if they resend a webmention with a fixed permalink then you should remove them from the -fail page
#
ehlovader
prepare for mistakes
#
ehlovader
learn from mistakes
#
ehlovader
if you don't make mistakes you aren't doing anything important
#
ehlovader
or something
#
ehlovader
insert quote here
#
aaronpk
also I could just show fails from the last 30 minutes
#
tantek
"move fast and break things" (ahem)
#
ehlovader
ooh, that works
#
aaronpk
just long enough for people who are testing
#
tantek
"The idea is that if you never break anything, you’re probably not moving fast enough."
skinny joined the channel
#
ehlovader
oh that is just startup vitamins again
#
aaronpk
oh and the response to the webmention would say "webmention queued, check the status here: ___________"
#
ehlovader
looking nicer already
#
ehlovader
so you keep track of the source
#
ehlovader
and when you get a succesful mention you remove the fail
#
ehlovader
I think keeping stats on it might be nicer
#
ehlovader
"It's ok, 10 other people forgot this too."
fmarier joined the channel
#
ehlovader
"Indieweb is hard, but Indie doesn't mean you have to do it alone"
#
aaronpk
Remember, there are *two* I's in "indie"
#
ehlovader
or more succint "Indieweb is hard, but Indie !== Alone"
#
ehlovader
there isn't necessarily a way with indieweb concepts to identify if the person viewing your page is in fact the author of another site is there?
#
ehlovader
unless you request they indieauth with your site for no other reason than to show them context
#
ehlovader
or something
#
aaronpk
yeah you'd have to do auth stuff which would make the whole thing more complicated
#
aaronpk
I like the idea of just showing the latest fails for the last 30 minutes. super easy to implement that too since you can just use a cache, and no auth stuff.
#
ehlovader
ooh, 30 minutes isn't bad
#
ehlovader
is a newb
#
ehlovader
is webmention that responsive
#
ehlovader
that they would/should immediately get feedback themselves?
#
ehlovader
is working on the details...
#
ehlovader
I have ssl, I have /this/ my bnc up and running, I have selfoss and webmail and owncloud all working on my server
#
ehlovader
but I need to find out what happened to the webhost, I need to throw up a good quick page with just dump of links
#
ehlovader
I need to write up some of the things I am using now in the wiki, and then I could start microblogging with notes and shares, and mentions
#
ehlovader
that is a logical and well ordered todo right?
#
ehlovader
I think it follows closely the order of indiewebifie.me
#
ehlovader
also, could that webmention assistance remention actually run as a service? are most/all the existing webmention libraries setup well with event hooks or actions that could you to handle errors through external means...
#
ehlovader
or pass through and run events on later successes too
#
ehlovader
I assume if this were written as a separate library it would have to handle the mentions first, then pass through to allow whatever you want to handle the actual mention when it works
#
ehlovader
that would be the easiest
#
aaronpk
oh interesting idea. webmention.io could do that.
#
aaronpk
kind of like how it's set up to proxy pingbacks as webmentions
#
neuro`
Good evening
#
ehlovader
so you would just say things you need, or there is already a best practices right?
#
ehlovader
things that should always be required
#
ehlovader
evening neuro`
#
ehlovader
how are you doing
#
ehlovader
I will try and use punctuation like a civilized person.
#
ehlovader
so quick poll, was indieweb parts (all the various project) built upon any one framework/system?
#
ehlovader
leaning towards PHP here...
#
ehlovader
or was there one framework/system/etc that exists more than others....
#
ehlovader
klein.php, fat free framework, laravel, symphony, ...etc
#
ehlovader
all bespoke
#
ehlovader
I noticed that selfoss used f3
#
@caseorganic
My talk on Designing for Privacy in Mobile+Web Apps @ixdconf last wk is up! #privacy #location #indieweb... http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/02/12/1/privacy-location-indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/433712637797339136)
#
ehlovader
gave it a look and it was nice, am using kleinphp for an internal project where i work, as a retrofitted method of taking procedural code and making it more structured
#
ehlovader
something that could shim in with legacy php
#
ehlovader
without doing a full indiewebproject genome project myself I was wondering what the community favored (again still leaning towards php)
#
aaronpk
not sure about others, but I use no framework or a minimal framework http://aaron.pk/a4P01 depending on the project. Mostly I just make sure I'm using composer packages for things.
#
ehlovader
is that for freedom from dependency?
#
ehlovader
klein may be worth looking into, it is minimal and composer friendly
#
aaronpk
most frameworks i've tried I end up spending more time learning the framework than actually writing code
#
aaronpk
i like the name :)
#
ehlovader
this is micro framwork
#
ehlovader
there you go
#
neuro`
Interesting
#
ehlovader
it mostly handles the routing, some sessions, can do validation and the view and data scope stuff
scor joined the channel
#
ehlovader
it handles flash messages pretty well, which is key for post, redirect, get
#
neuro`
I'm using either Rails for large projects or Sinatra for quick and dirst pocs
#
ehlovader
the view is simple but can handle layouts, view rendering and partials
#
aaronpk
I use sinatra a lot (and jsonatra for APIs) but that's Ruby
#
ehlovader
is not sure he is open to becoming a rubyist
#
ehlovader
I have used it a bit in my provisioning ventures
#
aaronpk
wasn't sure either, and has been slowly converted
#
ehlovader
definitely think I enjoy python better when it comes to that... puppet vs vagrant
#
aaronpk
well not converted, I do both equally now :)
#
ehlovader
is it because of the magic
#
aaronpk
no, I don't like the magic
#
ehlovader
the crazy syntax that can be used to make things happen
#
ehlovader
like rabbits out of loops
#
ehlovader
and coins from behind your whiles
#
ehlovader
like the weird uncle of the newer languages
#
ehlovader
you never really understood it, and he never made sense, but you were continually impressed by the tricks he showed you
#
ehlovader
oh, klein is also restful
#
ehlovader
which is probably something that comes up in indieweb stuff right?
#
neuro`
Well, more than indieweb, I'd say "sensible web programming"
#
ehlovader
haha, yeah
#
ehlovader
but it is a relatively new concept
#
ehlovader
and could result in lots of boilerplate to accomplish without a framework
#
ehlovader
lots i mean little but you gotta know what you are doing
#
neuro`
REST is 14 years old
#
ehlovader
REST itself yeah
#
ehlovader
but it wasn't implemented often or well in the last 10, SOAP brought it to the forefront as far as I remember
#
ehlovader
but I also wasn't aware of most of the changes in the past
#
ehlovader
I didn't even know that freenode supported TOR through onion endpoints until last year or so
#
ehlovader
I was relatively isolated from developers and peers the past 8 years, my own fault, but definitely trying to change that.
#
ehlovader
I suffer from what I termed indoor cat syndrome... not growing or being pushed to evolve or keep up with the outdoor cats that had to struggle for every bite of food.
#
@fdevillamil
@xtof_fr que penserais-tu d’un homebrew website club á Paris ? 2 fois / mois pour parler / créer / former sur #indieweb. Partant ?
(twitter.com/_/status/433715991626125314)
#
ehlovader
while I was well fed and ate mostly the same dry meals each day for years, my outdoor cat friends had to constantly look for the next alley restaurant to get a bite from the back.
#
ehlovader
They tended to get more variety too, and had grown the street smarts to keep on top, while I was rather coddled and kept on the same schedule, and playing with the same toys, and same "other cats".
#
ehlovader
I could see the world from my window, but I was never forced to use it. I also never forced myself, which was a huge mistake.
#
caseorganic
neuro`: I like "sensible web programming"
#
tantek
hey ehlovader - you should add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
#
ehlovader
I should
#
ehlovader
you don't allow anon adds yet do you?
pfenwick joined the channel
#
ehlovader
I have a few freelance things to take care of tonight, but hopefully if I figure out what was keeping my webserver stuff from working I will have a very basic
#
ehlovader
albeit ugly, html webpage at ehlovader.com to indieauth with
#
tantek
ehlovader - what do you mean by anon adds?
#
ehlovader
like amber case had said in her talk most recently, the wiki requires you to have your domian, and participate at least in good faith to actually contribute
#
tantek
exactly! that's a good thing!
#
ehlovader
whether a real developer, or not, but you should setup something
#
ehlovader
right now I have nothing
#
tantek
we eat our own dogfood - indieweb by and for independents
#
ehlovader
in transition...
#
caseorganic.com
edited /IRC_People (+4) "Corrected user to Caseorganic.com from User:Caseorganic"
(view diff)
#
tantek
ehlovader - great - focus on that
#
ehlovader
so far i am just a loud lurker
#
tantek
rather than all the other webmention etc. stuff
#
tantek
one step at a time
#
ehlovader
did you see my list
#
tantek
more action, less loud lurking ;)
#
ehlovader
I said it earlier
#
ehlovader
talking to aaronpk
#
tantek
ehlovader, don't put your list here, put it on your user page on the wiki
#
ehlovader
talking in here, but while he was here
#
ehlovader
what list?
#
tantek
setup your static HTML h-card page with rel=me links to profiles for IndieAuth
#
tantek
make that your next priority - get to IndieMark level 1
#
caseorganic.com
edited /User:Caseorganic (-166) "Cleared page because Caseorganic is not a user. Caseorganic.com is a user"
(view diff)
#
@kevinmarks
RT @fdevillamil: @xtof_fr que penserais-tu d’un homebrew website club á Paris ? 2 fois / mois pour parler / créer / former sur #indieweb. P…
(twitter.com/_/status/433717750574231552)
#
tantek
caseorganic, that's what #redirect:[[User:Caseorganic.com]] is for ;)
#
ehlovader
that is the FIRST thing I said
#
caseorganic
tantek: i don't see a redirect function from my login. hmm.
#
ehlovader
ofc I wanted my other server things
#
ehlovader
this bnc so I am on here
#
tantek
ehlovader - nope, on your own domain. start with first steps. not second, third, fourth.
#
ehlovader
the webmail and stuff
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ehlovader
what am I doing that you consider to be the second
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tantek
once you get your first step done, you'll re-order your other steps
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ehlovader
please tell me
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tantek
everything other than getting your simple static HTML h-card setup
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tantek
on your own domain
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ehlovader
when did I say I was doing that?
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tantek
you don't need SSL
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ehlovader
anything besides that
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tantek
the URL you said
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tantek
"microblogging with notes and shares, and mentions"
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ehlovader
that was AFTER the static page
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tantek
all those are second, third, fourth
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ehlovader
yes they are
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tantek
yes, second, third, fourth are after first ;)
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tantek
so focus on the first
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ehlovader
and I am not doing the microblogging
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tantek
and don't bother even talking out loud about 2-4
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ehlovader
or the notes
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ehlovader
or the shares
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tantek
because those will change
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tantek
once you get started
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tantek
get your site working
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tantek
so do that: "throw up a good quick page with just dump of links"
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tantek
focus on doing that, not chatting here. it's clear what you have to do next.
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@ablwr
yay MT @caseorganic: My talk on Designing for Privacy in Mobile+Web Apps @ixdconf is up! #privacy #location #indieweb http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/02/12/1/privacy-location-indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/433723107271262208)
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bear
my goodness - take a long lunch and you all get seriously *chatty*
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caseorganic
bear: lol
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bear
good thing I can read the logs later
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ttepasse
aaronpk, you linked your atom feed with the following markup: rel="updates alternate". Do still have any idea where the token "updates" came from? It doesn't exist in HTML5, it isn't documented in the microformat registry and all other proposals for feed autodiscovery that I know of had other rel values.
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aaronpk
huh, good question
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aaronpk
I probably copied it from tantek's site :)
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ttepasse
It is so marked up in an example on http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_your_realtime_feed
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ttepasse
... by you. Which is why I was asking you. :)
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aaronpk
yeah my guess is I saw it on tantek's site and did the same
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ttepasse
view source is alive and well, I see. ;)
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aaronpk
i like how that got indexed by google
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Jeena
I hope the fix in the webmentions wordpress plugin will propagate to the websites soon, every time I webmention someone my webmention is broken because I don't use absolute URLs, perhaps I should change that until this gets out in the open.
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Jeena
Btw. I made air-dried ham, and it is delicious https://jeena.net/air-dried-ham check especially out the last picture in 100% scale https://jeena.net/images/2014/ham-on-a-plate.jpg
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tantek
greetings IndieWebCamp! ready for tonight's Homebrew Website Club meetup?
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ttepasse
Ah, there he is. Tantek, you linked your Atom feed with rel="updates alternate". Any idea where the token "updates" came from?
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ttepasse
(It isn't in the usual rel-registries or autodiscovery proposals. I'm just curious, if I missed something.)
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tantek
searches his site.
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snarfed
maybe it's related to PuSH?
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snarfed
not much about it in a web search
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tantek
reads
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jedahan
tantek yup see you at 6:30
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tantek
my site has had rel="alternate updates" since launching Falcon live on it 2010-01-01
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tantek
ooh that's interesting, but revisions sounds fairly specific
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snarfed
"When REL=UPDATES, the target document contains revisions to the current document"
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snarfed
right, so different from the usage here
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snarfed
sounds like the conclusion might be, it's not really a thing
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tantek
I think I may have (thought I) made it up at the time
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snarfed
i know the feeling
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ttepasse
Nobody said that the target document has to have the same representation as the current document.
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tantek
as a way to indicate that the destination of the link was *only* updates, instead of being a complete alternate
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ttepasse
Maybe that was the time, when HTML5 tried to spec "feed".
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tantek
e.g. home page contains more than just updates/posts
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tantek
yeah I gave up on "feed" at the time since no one could agree on it
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tantek
snarfed, I think you're right, it was PuSH inspired
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@hol_wily
RT @fdevillamil: @xtof_fr que penserais-tu d’un homebrew website club á Paris ? 2 fois / mois pour parler / créer / former sur #indieweb. P…
(twitter.com/_/status/433746786440978432)
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ttepasse
So I'll ignore it, when I try to fix my buggy Feed-Autodiscovery-Extension.
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ttepasse
Thanks for looking.
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snarfed
ttepasse++
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Loqi
ttepasse has 1 karma
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tantek
snarfed, that webfinger email thread is depressing
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tantek
so many words about so little
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tantek
ironically I'm listening to caseorganic's talk at "FutureTalks" and she just ranted about how noisy email is vs. IRC
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snarfed
heh, timely
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tantek
open email lists - dominated by storytellers, not builders
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tantek
it's an excellent summary of the problem with the medium for technical development
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tantek
and broken links from that email thread
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tantek
so yes, snarfed, I think I put in rel="updates" to help with discovery, but that was when I still grudgingly accepted separate feed sidefiles as the best thing we had
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tantek
now it's pretty irrelevant
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ttepasse
And broken hopes for Google Buzz.
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snarfed
makes sense
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tantek
so yeah, going to dump it - can't justify it even based on hypothetical use-cases
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ttepasse
Oh, please update http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_your_realtime_feed . Everyone ... ok at least two others copied that which irritated me in the first place. :)
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tantek
yup fixing that first
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tantek
I suppose we could use rel=updates for an updates.html page that *only* had posts (no furniture links or anything else) - but since no one has anything like that, we should drop it until that becomes a real issue
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tantek.com
edited /How_to_set_up_your_realtime_feed (-8) "drop rel=updates until there's an actual use-case for it and a scenario where it makes a difference"
(view diff)
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tantek
ok rel="updates" gone from wiki and gone from tantek.com - thanks for calling that into question ttepasse
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ttepasse
Just plain curiosity.
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tantek
keep up the curiosity ;)
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tantek
socraticmethod++
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Loqi
socraticmethod has 1 karma
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tantek
!tell caseorganic loved your latest talk(s)! the iteration and messaging is really awesome. one nit: relative temporal references need absolutising/updating, e.g. "dinner last night", and upcoming IndieWebCamps (slide near end). Really love the close too. Minimal features, building blocks. So good.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena
so Statusnet/identi.ca is able to consume our notes atom feeds? Am I reading http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_your_realtime_feed right?
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Jeena
or, I should say was.
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tantek
Jeena, yeah, the statusnet/identica silos are no more, but anyone with a statusnet install can do so
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Jeena
ah the content has to be marked up a little bit different
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tantek
it shouldn't. they just consume Atom AFAIK
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tantek
via PuSH
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Jeena
I think I know one person who installed one instance for himself
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Jeena
I never really read about PuSH, need to do that some time, I have no idea what that actually is.
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tantek
ouch: http://evan.status.net/ = "Database error \ The database for Just another StatusNet microblog is not responding correctly, so the site will not work properly. The site admins probably know about the problem, but you can contact them at [no address given] to make sure. "
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tantek
and https://identi.ca/ at some point shutdown their statusnet install and replaced it with pump.io
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tantek
kind of a site-death. more like a site-wipe
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tantek
is it worth keeping track of site-wipes like that?
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tantek
I mean, loss of profiles, posts
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Jeena
yeah but pump.io is really different and not at all compatible with anything