#indiewebcamp 2014-02-25

2014-02-25 UTC
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aaronpk tantek: where do http://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery http://indiewebcamp.com/page-name-discovery and http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation#How_to_display fall under? algorithms? (they're not formats or protocols)
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tantek not everything is a format or protocol
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tantek they don't need to all fall under
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aaronpk no, but I want to put those three in a list
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aaronparecki.com edited /event (+17) (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu how about a common parsing/presentation algorithms?
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KartikPrabhu "a list of common"
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KartikPrabhu might be easier for new comers to find them
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aaronpk i'm gonna start with /algorithm and anybody is free to rename that
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aaronpk just wanna close these tabs
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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tantek aaronpk - building-blocks is good enough
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tantek algorithm overlaps though
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tantek each protocol and format typically has some associated algorithms, often on the same page
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tantek aaronpk - why do you want to put them in a list?
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tantek I think it's important for a list to have a purpose
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tantek rather than just collecting similar things
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tantek collecting similar things = use a tag/category
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aaronpk it goes along with the theme of 50% of the words in this email I'm writing being links to wiki pages
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tantek lists should have an express purpose
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tantek e.g. IndieMark is a list
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tantek very ordered
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tantek each one of those things you named is a building-block
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tantek which I think is a good enough collection
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tantek we don't need a new term
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tantek or rather, what do we gain by distinguishing "algorithms" from "building blocks" ?
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aaronpk but they are all the same kind of building block, and they are different from building blocks like permalinks and h-entry
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tantek they're not really
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caseorganic I like the idea of using a starfleet-like pip system for indiemark
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tantek by themselves algorithms are kind of abstract
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caseorganic http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2838/12758849525_f2315d72fb_o.jpg
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tantek I actually really dislike talking about algorithms outside of use-cases / user-features
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tantek because that tends to go down the (dark) path of programmer-centric thinking, and loses sight of user-centric thinking
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aaronpk that's fine, but all of those pages I linked specifically say they are algorithms
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aaronpk "How to determine authorship of a post on a page - AKA the Authorship Algorithm"
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tantek that's probably my fault for falling into a particular writing pattern (I think I may have written those/that)
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KartikPrabhu tantek, aaronpk: I think for new comers it is sort of hard to find the already-used algorithms because you sort of have to know where to look or what terms to search. It would be useful to have a list of implemented/suggested algorithms
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tantek KartikPrabhu - you just made my case
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tantek for why talking about algorithms is bad
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tantek no one should be looking for list of implemented/suggested algorithms
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aaronpk omg i don't care what it's called but these 4 things are unique and I want to put them somewhere
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tantek they should be looking for a list of implemented/suggested user/site *features*
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tantek aaronpk - but you do realize that clustering them could actually give them a bad focus right?
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tantek KartikPrabhu just inadvertently made my point
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KartikPrabhu did not intend to do that :P
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tantek right, it's part of default developer thinking
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tantek KartikPrabhu, the list of implemented/suggested user/site *features* is IndieMark
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aaronpk how to: 1) determine the author of a post. 2) determine the canonical URL of a post. 3) determine the page name. 4) find post info to display a post as a comment
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aaronpk i'm going to put them all under post then
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tantek aaronpk - that's better
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KartikPrabhu tantek: but unless I asked you I wouldn't know that I should look at IndieMark page
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tantek so we need to make that more discoverable then
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tantek KartikPrabhu - what is it you were looking for?
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aaronpk i'm still not sold on the current iteration of indiemark. I feel like each incremental step needs to provide immediate benefit to the person doing it otherwise they have no incentive to do so other than to get points
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KartikPrabhu What kind of things people have done/want to do on the indieweb? This was before I stumbled upon IndieMark accidently.
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tantek aaronpk - those two are incongruous statements
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tantek each incremental step *does* provide benefit to the person doing it!
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tantek that's part of what each step has been based on
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KartikPrabhu also how have they done/implemeted something? Am I doing it correctly in some sense etc...
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tantek it's why I've created "Why" sections for each step
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tantek each module/ building block
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tantek aaronpk, right at the top of the page: "Levels in general are ordered roughly by both immediate practicality to the indieweb site owner (somewhat by community interop), and somewhat by incremental difficulty. "
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tantek so yes, "immediate practicality to the indieweb site owner" is key
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tantek everything in indiemark is provides immediate benefit to the person doing it
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aaronpk hm, there were some parts that didn't seem to reflect that
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tantek name specifics
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aaronpk trying to remmeber
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@ShaneHudson @garyvee If it works, I would recommend looking into POSSE (#indieweb) http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE basically posting on your site first (twitter.com/_/status/438111492056313856)
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tantek because the page obviously provides the overall focus that you ask for
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aaronpk actually here's one, ironically, indieauth
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tantek going to add to the faq also
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tantek huh?
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tantek indieauth helps you sign into IndieWebCamp
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aaronpk it's easy, but there isn't actually any benefit until much later, other than adding yourself to the wiki
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aaronpk but if you don't care about the wiki, it's not useful
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tantek if you don't care about publishing on the web, then indiewebcamp is not useful
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tantek the "if you don't care about" line of reasoning is flawed
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aaronpk but you can publish on the web and never use the wiki
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tantek sure, and you can publish on the web and never interact with anyone else either
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aaronpk but indieauth is also not a prerequisite for doing webmentions and comments
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tantek the point is that indiewebcamp is not a zero-value community
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tantek it has principles and commonalities
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tantek like having a common area to discuss this stuff
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tantek and that's IRC+wiki
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tantek otherwise why bother with the community?
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tantek so no, I don't buy the " if you don't care about the wiki"
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tantek if you don't care about the wiki or IRC then you're essentially saying you don't care about the community
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aaronpk ok maybe that's not the right way to put it then
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tantek and frankly, I'm ok with having those folks ignore indiewebcamp
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tantek because if they don't care about community, good luck to them and their lone inventor in the garage attitude to getting what they want working
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tantek if you want I can add that to the FAQ
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tantek I'm totally ok with turning-off people who are anti-community as a first level focusing filter
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aaronpk my point is that setting up indieauth, while a good thing to encourage interaction with the community, doesn't lead to any further benefit to one's own site until much later (like when using micropub, or for private posts)
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tantek aaronpk - well there's the obvious one. SEO from indiewebcamp :P
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tantek (from your User: page linking to your site)
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tantek but I didn't think that we needed to state that explicitly :P
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tantek and what about linking to your site from the IRC logs automatically? (when you add yourself to irc-people)
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tantek sounds like I do need to add these to an FAQ
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tantek because honestly I thought these were all totally obvious but I guess not
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+548) "/* FAQ */ What is omitted, and what to do about it" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /post (+267) (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /2014/SF (-39) "/* Sponsor */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF (+319) "/* Help Out */ more sponsorship slots" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /2014/SF (+59) "/* Sponsor */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/02/24/2014/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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pdurbin aaronpk: what you're saying makes sense to me... about immediate benefit to the user. makes sense that owning your own domain is #1. not quite as much sense that setting up indieauth to be able to log into the wiki as #2
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pdurbin handy link for anyone who wants to see the list: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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tantek pdurbin the importance of community, and community participation cannot be understated.
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tantek er, overstated?
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pdurbin well, maybe #2 should be joining this channel ;) ... that's how I participate... try to anyway
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tantek pdurbin - yes, it's close to #2 of Getting Started
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tantek but Getting Started is different from IndieMark
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tantek IndieMark measures the indiewebness of a site
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tantek and what makes a site "indieweb" is an emerging / evolving definition
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pdurbin tantek: heh, "zeroeth" even: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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tantek that is roughly defined logically, and roughly defined by how people here vote with their time / personal site
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tantek so the more people that implement something on their own site, the more importance it gains as part of indiemark
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tantek that's the semi-democratic nature of IndieMark
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tantek everyone gets to "vote" for IndieMark features by deploying them on their own site
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+554) "add explicit IndieWeb Examples and a quick Why section" (view diff)
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pdurbin so the indiewebness of a site should be measured by the the popularity of the features that you've implemented? by the fact that you've implemented many of the same common features other indieweb site have implemented?
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tantek.com created /community (+335) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /community (-1) (view diff)
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tantek pdurbin your question doesn't make sense and/or sounds tautological ;)
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pdurbin tantek: heh. sorry, I'm just trying to understand your comment about democracy and votes
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@xtof_fr @jglovier kudos Joel. Amazing blog theme. It will really help me to learn CSS & future #indieweb tweaks. Bravo ! http://christopheducamp.com/2014/02/25/nouveau-template-jekyll-par-joel-glovier/ (twitter.com/_/status/438128210266845184)
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pdurbin are there any metrics on these "votes"? the number of sites that have implemented feature x?
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pdurbin if so, it'd be interesting to see them in tabular format, an html table in the wiki or a spreadsheet or whatever
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@isaagest https://indieauth.com Annotations: IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID, but simp... (twitter.com/_/status/438129001614565377)
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tantek pdurbin - the only metrics are the number of example in each features' "IndieWeb Examples" section
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tantek number of examples*
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tantek pdurbin - too hard to maintain tabular stuff like that
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tantek I mean, you're welcome to try
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tantek but a few have tried and it's already out of date on the wiki
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-implementations
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tantek also tables are not very "responsive" in the responsive design sense, so again, it's not that useful
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pdurbin well, it could come to me as JSON. I'm mostly just interested in the numbers
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pdurbin tantek: the table is very interesting. thanks
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tantek it seems interesting, but it's out of date / inaccurate
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tantek don't be fooled by the presentation
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pdurbin ok
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tantek.com edited /indieweb-implementations (+529) "yeah, this page is obsolete, big warning at the top." (view diff)
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tantek there we go, nice bright blinding banner at the top
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pdurbin ouch. yellow
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tantek.com edited /indieweb-implementations (+570) "why" (view diff)
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tantek there we go, captured the problems intrinsic to that page to hopefully avoid having to revisit this in the future
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tantek aaronpk, FYI, documented this explicitly: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth#Why
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tantek nitot, seriously, please check your IRC client
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@serduno Fourth test - this is just a test, again…. aaa bbb ccc ddd eee fff ggg ... #Indieweb #Sorry #Testing http://du.no/e (twitter.com/_/status/438135392228098048)
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tantek neat: http://du.no/home
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tantek " what = personal interweb thingie " :)
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KartikPrabhu I had to set both nitot and nitot_ to ignore on my IRC client.
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aaronpk Ok so it took 18 lines to add photo posting to my micropub endpoint. I think we're on to something.
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tantek um wow
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tantek very nicely done
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF (+37) "/* Guest List */ start counting" (view diff)
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aaronpk Remember how much time I spent on photo posts yesterday? That was all UI work. Turns out the protocol/mechanics are not the hard part.
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tantek bingo
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tantek that's probably the most important lesson for any/every developer to learn
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tantek because most devs tend to focus 99% of time on the protocol/mechanics and 1% on the UI
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tantek (time debating, designing, building etc.)
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tantek ok time to start getting people signed up for IndieWebCampSF now that we have a venue and sponsors are starting to come in
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aaronpk Man, nitot, seriously
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aaronpk I feel bad, but should I kickban him or something?
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tantek aaronpk, I just emailed him and cc'd you
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aaronpk So that's a "yes"?
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tantek no that's a give him a chance to fix his client
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aaronpk k. He's in France right? So +8 hours from here?
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tantek I feel bad because it was a challenge to get him on
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tantek yeah
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tantek hopefully he'll follow-up
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tantek soon
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tantek oh shoot
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tantek ok kickban
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tantek more in email
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aaronpk Ah yea. He was working with xtof on his site recently right?
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tantek right standblog.org
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aaronpk What? Ok one sec
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tantek email sent. go for it.
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aaronpk First time I've done that :)
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willnorris.com edited /2014/SF (+356) "/* Guest List */" (view diff)
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@isaac RT @isaagest: https://indieauth.com Annotations: IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID,… (twitter.com/_/status/438160302123646977)
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@kevinmarks RT @isaagest: https://indieauth.com Annotations: IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites. It's like OpenID,… (twitter.com/_/status/438166180621062144)
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@kevinmarks @amywhiggins @SlideShare because @aboutdotme is a poor substitute for a Web domain you control yourself #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/438179592973455360)
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snarfed hey KartikPrabhu, how's your beautifulsoup mf2py fork? stable enough to start using?
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I think so. https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py though I still have to incorporate it myself on my website.
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KartikPrabhu that is more due to lack of time than stability of code
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snarfed great! i'll try it out
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snarfed heh, i know the feeling
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KartikPrabhu the logic is mainly the same as tommorris's mf2py. he might merge them if he feels so inclined
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onebigfluke.com edited /2014/SF (+513) "Attending" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: let me know if any changes to the mf2py code are of immediate use to you. I'll add those first
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snarfed thanks! will do
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF (+0) "/* Guest List */ counts" (view diff)
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@isaac Oh yeah, my #IndieWeb authorized to move on https://twitter.com/isaac/status/438238462547079168/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/438238462547079168)
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@kevinmarks RT @isaac: Oh yeah, my #IndieWeb authorized to move on https://twitter.com/isaac/status/438238462547079168/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/438241237942796288)
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@joshuajuran RT @isaac: Oh yeah, my #IndieWeb authorized to move on https://twitter.com/isaac/status/438238462547079168/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/438242334803648512)
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: I will look at your pull request at some point soon. promise. :)
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@hugoroyd @artfwo @commonsmachine @jonaso lots of http://indiewebcamp.com/ projects (twitter.com/_/status/438280729324437504)
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bret I just had an interesting realization the other day. tantek was talking about how when technarati indexed the html of blogs, quality of the data shot way up. I realized today that all the competent feed readers today HAVE to implement some kind of full text extraction (via readability or some other method) in order to combat low quality feeds
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bret its the same situation today
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bret and readability is based on microformats no less
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barnabywalters bret: that makes a lot of sense, and is a good way to frame microformats evangelism to feedreader builders
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barnabywalters “you’re already parsing HTML, this technology makes it way easier”
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barnabywalters which leads nicely onto “you’re already getting all the data you show to users from HTML, why bother with RSS any more?”
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cweiske because it's easier to fetch a single file that contains all data
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cweiske instead of having to fetch the index page and then every detail page separately
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cweiske is there a document describing the quality improvements due to html parsing?
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Jeena I'm a feedreader builder, what could I use microformats for with Atom feeds?
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barnabywalters many ATOM feeds don’t contain all of the data in one file
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Jeena ah you mean because dropping the atom/rss ok I see
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Jeena I don't subscribe to those feeds, because it is a waste of time
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barnabywalters Jeena: when you say “you” do you mean your software or you personally as a user?
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Jeena I personally as a user
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barnabywalters so that’s an example of RSS/ATOM’s hiddenness allowing them to be irrelevant to humans
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barnabywalters it’s the same reason that parsing twitter.com’s HTML often gives you better quality results than using their API
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barnabywalters e.g. the API has no reliable way of getting all replies to a tweet, whereas they can be parsed easily out of the tweet permalink page
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cweiske so this is an argument against APIs and for using microformats?
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Jeena but I agree with cweiske, with a atom/rss feed you do one http request every hour or something and you get all the new stuff, with the content and with all the changes. Parsing the HTML index page + every single of the linked articles takes so much more time, just for the feed reader
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cweiske barnabywalters, now replace microformats with html and api with microformats
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barnabywalters Jeena: but you *don’t* get all the new stuff, as you just pointed out
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Jeena only if the provider shortens the content, but most of them don't do that
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cweiske the next problem will be that the html is missing microformat markup, instead of the api missing data
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cweiske and you're back at the beginning
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Jeena yeah but that is another level and is just the chicken and egg problem
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cweiske it's still the same problem
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Jeena so by advocating microformats this problem can be solved in the future
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cweiske by fixing the API, this probem can be solved in the future
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cweiske where is the difference?
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Jeena yeah good point
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barnabywalters cweiske: but if the data is within the HTML the barrier to making it parseable is tiny, and it’s much more likely that people will point out the problem because the feedback loops involved with using the data are smaller
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cweiske the barrier to fixing the api is at the same level as fixing the html
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cweiske and why should people be more likely to point out issues with microformat markup than issues with the API?
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cweiske microformats are an API
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barnabywalters cweiske: the information is more likely to be in the HTML in the first place because it needs to be there because humans want to see it there (cases in point: tweet replies, feed pagination links)
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cweiske s/an/another/
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: microformats are another API
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cweiske the information is there, but it will not be marked up
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barnabywalters and as the data is already in the HTML the barrier to making it parseable is tiny, i.e. adding a single classname
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barnabywalters but these questions don’t get asked of RSS/ATOM because it’s barely human-visible
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cweiske internally, the data are available to the API also
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barnabywalters cweiske: see above
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bret A document that shows quality improvements? How about like every modern feed reader
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bret newsblur, feedbin, reeder are a few that do this
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barnabywalters I’m sure I’ve read blog posts about this before
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barnabywalters maybe it would be worth adding some citations to http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#Criticism
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bret cweiske does have a point about the index page retreival
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bret h-atom had the polling issue
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bret iirc where you have to get the whole document in order to see if something was updated
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barnabywalters yeah, in theory that is handled by something like PuSH but it hasn’t been a high enough priority (not enough visible value) for people to implement yet
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bret if we were to iterate on the rss/atom feed model, could we do push+html parsing only? fall back to rss if the subscription fails
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barnabywalters the situation could also be improved by people adding dt-updated to feed index pages
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barnabywalters of course, in the case of notes, and often for articles, the whole content *is* shown in the index
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barnabywalters so maybe the problem doesn’t actually exist
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barnabywalters and you do only have to parse the index page
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barnabywalters bret: exactly! existing PuSH hubs push HTML content to you on updates
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barnabywalters so that could be parsed for updated information
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barnabywalters without having to fetch or poll it
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barnabywalters with Superfeedr IIRC you can also subscribe to HTML pages which don’t explicitly list it as their hub
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barnabywalters so updates might not be as timely, but you the need for polling is pushed to a supporting service
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waterpigs.co.uk created /ATOM (+17) "redirected" (view diff)
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bret a possible issue, rss/atom have this too, is that some publishers might intentionally botch the uF so that parsing only brings in some of the content
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bret and append 'click here to see the rest'
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bret the html parsing in readers is a way to combat this
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barnabywalters bret: that’s pointing to a separate issue — publishers wanting to get hits to their site
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barnabywalters hits, to HTML PAGES on their sites
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barnabywalters readers should work TOWARD this goal instead of against it
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bret i'm assuming an additional layer of agressive parsing would be needed in a practical reader application
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bret barnabywalters: news blur will actually show you the page inside the reader. I guess I see what you are saying
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bret but this ignores the needs of offline readers on small devices
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bret and ignores the fact that publishers that oh so need your hit on a mobile connection often send you 10Mb of javascript analytics.. nothanks
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barnabywalters I’d say that’s a separate, but very valid, problem
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bret yeah, i agree, im getting kinda mixed up here
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Jeena I wrote a feedreader for Firefox OS. How would PuSH work with that?
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barnabywalters that is, creating formats and readers which are worth enough to publishers to implement support for is a separate issue to publishers forcing crappy experiences on their readers
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bret i think any kind of general purpose reader that 'just works' is going to be a battle no matter what
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bret unless of course its just a web browser ;)
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bret actually web browsers are a battle
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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bret hey tantek
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barnabywalters Jeena: PuSH is basically server-server, so you’d have to do something like set up a server which the app opens a web socket connection to, to which it forwards notifications received from a hub
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barnabywalters morning tantek
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tantek bret: "where you have to get the whole document in order to see if something was updated" <-- same problem with RSS/Atom
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Jeena ah ok I see
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barnabywalters just repeating the old HTML+microformats vs RSS/ATOM debate again
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tantek haha
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Loqi hehe
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tantek barnabywalters are you collecting FAQs so we can dispense them with URLs?
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tantek rather than repeating the debate?
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barnabywalters tantek: working on it
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Jeena hehe
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /feed (+177) "/* Criticism */ flattened, added link to brian’s stupid feed tricks document" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /RSS (-46) "/* Problems */ linked to feed#Criticism so we have RSS/ATOM criticism in one place" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /RSS (+0) "/* Problems */ capitalisation" (view diff)
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tantek BTW - I found that Atom is much BIGGER than HTML for the equivalent set of posts.
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tantek like 2x
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tantek hence my Atom feed only has 3 items now, while my home page has 16.
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bret oh yeah you ran out of BW
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tantek I posted about this a while ago
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bret lol
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tantek basically, XML formats are shit in general
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tantek overdesigned by people that don'
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bret so much angle bracket
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tantek t actually selfdogfood and live the pain
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bret much heierachy
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bret wow
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tantek both Atom and RSS are just very crappy inefficient subsets of HTML
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tantek Atom did introduce some better defined vocabulary for feed/entry-like things. So that was good at least.
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barnabywalters tantek: I’d say they’re closer to being an unnecessary, inefficient wrapper for chunks of HTML rather than subsets
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Jeena I think we all agree that HTML + microformats is much easier then different XML formats. What we don't quite seem to agree is the number of HTTP requests per hour to get all updates.
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tantek Jeena - as if that's the #1 problem
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tantek come back to me when you've built an Indie Reader UI and posted screenshots
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tantek "number of HTTP requests per hour" - **per hour** - are you kidding me?
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bret tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-02-25/line/1393343711 thoughts? maybe this is already known, but this was a really concrete example for my own understanding
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tantek that's as bad as the "but this means more work for the parser" arguments from programmers
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tantek barnabywalters - while you're collecting criticism, here's another: http://tantek.com/2013/169/t5/rss-atom-not-rich-enough-social-web-osb2013
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barnabywalters aw geez I was just making a comic about the shadow DOM and now you’ve got me in full-on wiki editing mode ;)
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Jeena uhm not really, if you have 1000 people subscribing to your feed it is a http request every say 8 seconds with atom for everyone to check for updates. If you have a index site like mine with about 100 links and 1000 subscribers it is 27 HTTP requests per second just so everybody gets their feed reader to know that nothing has changed. This is kind of a huge change.
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Jeena dt-updated on the index page would probably be able to cut through that
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tantek barnabywalters as if we needed *another* comic about the shadow DOM?!? or wait, I mean meme.
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barnabywalters tantek: well, it’s really about naming things. the shadow DOM is the punchline
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tantek Jeena - there's plenty of data in the page to be more efficient than that
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bret what is the tldr of shadowdom?
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tantek bret - there isn't one.
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barnabywalters bret: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4UTAqE/
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bret p://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4UTAqE/
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bret oops
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tantek hahahaha
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tantek nice barnabywalters
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barnabywalters that spec is the stupidest + most obfuscated thing I’ve read for a long time. quite an accomplishment
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tantek Jeena - for example, we have an h-feed draft
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tantek and inside those there are h-entry elements with dt-updated / dt-published values - you can just check the most recent one of those
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tantek and that's just off the top of my head
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tantek Jeena, so don't talk to me about 1000 people subscribing and causing problems until it actually is. Because I don't believe it will be.
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tantek or as we like to say, I call theoretical
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tantek also - I believe the actual answer is PuSH - supported on my site since 2010
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Jeena I need to talk about it so I can find out about stuff you guys have been thinking about. I have never seen anything called h-feed
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed
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Jeena I'm not really trying to attac you guys, I'm just looking for answers :)
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bret can you have h-recipies inside of an h-feed? Or does that need to be wrapped in a h-entry
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barnabywalters bret: feed readers are only likely to treat things which are h-entries as posts in the feed
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barnabywalters but it can just be both
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barnabywalters that is, a post which is also a recipe
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bret ok gtg bye
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barnabywalters that way, readers which don’t understand h-recipe just treat it as a normal post, but more intelligent readers could alter presentation
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barnabywalters byw
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barnabywalters s/byw/bye
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: bye
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Atom (+138) "added criticism link, tidied up summary" (view diff)
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Jeena was the h-feed reference intended to support the theoretical call because of the many HTTP requests? It looks to me like it mostly helps with adding information about the feed author and some metadata about the feed like name, url and photo
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /feed (+186) "/* Criticism */ added evanp’s osb2013 quote" (view diff)
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tantek Jeena - you want to support PuSH to reduce polling
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tantek see the /PuSH page
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tantek checks his h-feed support
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Jeena yeah I need to read about that, doing it now
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barnabywalters tantek: your newly-responsive homepage goes into mobile single-column mode on my 13" retina display
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tantek and I'm writing about it, hopefully I can keep ahead of you Jeena ;)
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Jeena hehe
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tantek barnabywalters - depends on how narrow you make the window (as it should)
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tantek at 3/4 screen width I still see 2 cols on my 11" MBA
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barnabywalters tantek: I am aware of how responsive design works ;)
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barnabywalters tantek: still single-column in full screen firefox
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tantek maybe check your zoom levels?
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tantek WFM ;)
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/tantek-com-media-queries.png
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barnabywalters hm yes maybe I’m zoomed in
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barnabywalters wow I was REALLY zoomed in — how did that happen?!
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barnabywalters never realised before that there’s no UI element signifying zoomedness
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Jeena what is a "Pub" in the context of "PuSH"?
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Loqi a is held til the end of our block
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barnabywalters Jeena: publish
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barnabywalters as in pub/sub = publish/subscribe
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Jeena it seems to be some kind of a server
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Jeena I mean like the linked http://pubsubhubbub.superfeedr.com/
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barnabywalters a hub?
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barnabywalters a hub is a server which gets notified of new content by publishers and pushes the new content to subscribers
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barnabywalters it also handles subscription creation and maintenance
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Jeena so like you pinged technorati?
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Jeena hm no ok
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barnabywalters there’s a video here which explains it:
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barnabywalters https://code.google.com/p/pubsubhubbub/
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tantek ok, updated my h-feed just a little
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Jeena thanks
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tantek.com created /h-feed (+1365) "stub with how, why, indieweb examples" (view diff)
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tantek Jeena - there you go, just a bit more for you to read ;)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed
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Jeena thanks
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tantek.com edited /h-feed (+38) "see also uf h-feed" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - now add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#IndieWeb_Examples
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Jeena hehe barnabywalters the video was uhm hehe for non tech-people, but I think I start to understand. to implement PuSH I either can write my own Hub and handle all the stuff myself like subscription and push to everyone, or I could use http://pubsubhubbub.superfeedr.com/ as my Hub where I push only once and it takes care of the subscription and pushing to people?
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tantek Jeena - or you can still use the Google test hub too
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tantek but yeah superfeedr is great
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tantek and julien51 (who is in charge of it) shows up here from time to time
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tantek he's been to a few IndieWebCamps too - great guy
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Jeena Hm that could be kind of fun to implement and test it with superfeedr first
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /feed (+147) "/* Criticism */ added size concerns + tantek citation" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /reader (-30) "/* See Also */ h-feed, clean up a bit" (view diff)
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tommorris was just investigating the HTML/ATOM disparity - opened up the Atom feed in Firefox web inspector and it shows me an HTML document. ;)
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tommorris Ah, it’s XHTML. converted using XSLT
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aaronpk oh man xslt, I remember that. I tried doing a site with that in like 2001...
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tommorris and the subscribe stuff is injected using JS
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tantek hey aaronpk - Y U NO h-feed?
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tommorris aaronpk: XSLT is still quite useful server-side
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aaronpk has anybody made JSLT yet?
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aaronpk tantek: uh because....something
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tantek.com edited /h-feed (+139) "DRY replacement for RSS/Atom" (view diff)
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tommorris part of my geo infrastructure is XSLT.
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tantek hmm - you too tommorris.org
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tommorris because geonames XML result -> modified XML result -> JSON
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aaronpk xslt generating a json doc?
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Jeena is adding h-feed too
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aaronpk oh I remember why I didn't add h-feed, cause I was only showing 3 notes on my home page
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barnabywalters the only use cases of h-feed I’ve found so far have been: explicit naming of the feed, page-level author discovery and multiple feeds on a page
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aaronpk now it makes sense that I show 10 notes in the primary content area of my hom epage
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tommorris aaronpk: no, got a programmatic translation of XML to JSON.
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tommorris but the nice thing about XSLT is you can set up multiple rules across multiple files
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barnabywalters briansuda created a huge XSLT to turn hcard into VCARD
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aaronpk barnabywalters: do you not have h-feed yet either?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I do have h-feed, mainly for author discovery
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tommorris just published my half-finished geonaming transformation stuff - https://bitbucket.org/tommorris/fierce-geonamer/overview
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barnabywalters but IMO that’s a separate thing to actually consuming feeds, i.e. at the moment there’s no reason for readers to demand h-feed markup over just having h-entries on the page
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tantek.com edited /h-feed (+41) "/* Why */ authorship, multiple feeds" (view diff)
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barnabywalters my microformats -> ATOM converter just looks for all h-entries on the given URL
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barnabywalters e.g. http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com%2F
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tantek barnabywalters - http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#Why
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aaronpk ah that's a good reason
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aaronpk other than that I don't really see the reason for it
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aaronpk well you have to have some way to determine the author of the page you're subscribing too
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tantek it's primarily for indie reader UI
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tantek which I suppose we'll all discover as we buildi t
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aaronpk to*
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aaronpk I just encountered that when setting up my reader. I want the only input to be the URL, and it should find the author name and photo
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tantek aaronpk - yeah, I'll likely add something to the authorship algorithm
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tantek when you ask me good questions about it ;)
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Loqi gives aaronpk the only input to be the URL
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tantek It was sandeepshetty that convinced me to finally add h-feed because he was using it in his reader
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tantek.com edited /h-feed (+157) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Barnaby Walters, not sure since when" (view diff)
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tommorris if sandeep is using it, I’ll roll it out. ;)
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barnabywalters tantek: did sandeepshetty actually build a reader?
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barnabywalters or do you mean his h-feed -> ATOM converter
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aaronpk i'm still super sad that PuSH broke the simplicity of the original spec
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tantek barnabywalters - I think he did?
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tantek aaronpk - it did?
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aaronpk whoa major lag?
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aaronpk i can't tell what conversation is happening
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tantek yeah
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barnabywalters tantek: http://h-reader.com (the domain his converter is at) is empty
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tantek um "Matching handler function not found" ?
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tantek what platform says that?
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barnabywalters https://github.com/sandeepshetty/h-reader last updated 8 months ago
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tantek hahaha - googling for that error gives: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-27/line/1372340733
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barnabywalters tantek: that’s sandeep’s minimal HTTP router’s default 404 message
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aaronpk looks like his own platform! https://github.com/phpish/app/blob/master/app.php#L99
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tantek we're caught in an IRC reference / search / reference time loop
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aaronpk ha yes
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tommorris in terms of h-feed implementations, it might not be a bad idea to use tantek.com as a reference implementation
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tommorris a reference for implementationr ather
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Jeena so my list items of links to articles on the index page should also be marked up as h-entry isn't it?
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tantek tommorris - well I'm not sure about that, I think barnabywalters's might be cleaner
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Jeena the items lack h-card and e-content
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tantek I'm still in the middle of redoing my "header" with h-card etc.
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tantek re: APIs vs. microformats - APIs don't survive in archives. microformats do. as does HTML in genearl.
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tantek.com edited /API (+400) "Fragility too" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /microformats (+224) "Why not APIs - be explicit and make this reasoning more discoverable" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters, bret, Jeena please read http://indiewebcamp.com/API so you can refer cweiske to all those problems instead of having to restatement them next time he brings up APIs
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tantek.com edited /microformats (+496) "/* FAQ */ Are microformats an API? No, just the info you might get back." (view diff)
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Jeena There is one thing about APIs though, and why they are so popular. If you can say that your startup offers an (REST/JSON) API then many people start listening, it is kind of a prestige thing. Hm I wonder, is there a microformats parser for the iPhone?
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tantek.com edited /microformats (+35) "/* See Also */ microformats, micropub2" (view diff)
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tantek Jeena - it's because startup like to slap a TOS on access to information, API tokens etc.
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tantek they're abusing developers
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tommorris it’s also because of cargo cult development
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tommorris everyone looks at twitter and says “oh, twitter are doing it, therefore we need to do it"
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tantek Jeena, I refer you to tommorris's excellent rant: http://tommorris.org/posts/2452
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tantek and my summary: http://tantek.com/2013/190/t4/api-proprietary-tos-bizdev-open-html-http-indieweb
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Jeena haha cargo cult, that is the perfect way to describe it
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tommorris The best thing about “RESTful APIs” is they fail to adhere to the principle of one-URI-per-thing
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Jeena hehe
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tommorris if you have “api” as part of your API URL, you are failing to REST. ;)
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tommorris one important point of REST is that the method I navigate around your website matches the method by which I navigate around your API
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tommorris if you’ve got documentation for your API, then it probably isn’t something I can follow-my-nose around
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Jeena haha nice rant
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aaronpk oh don't even get me started on "REST" apis
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tantek.com edited /API (+996) "add FAQ with good tommorris answers" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /API (+20) "/* Are RESTful APIs actually RESTful */ linky" (view diff)
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tantek thank you Jeena and tommorris - I've captured your questions and answers: http://indiewebcamp.com/API#FAQ
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tantek aaronpk, oh, please do get started on "REST" APIs: http://indiewebcamp.com/API#Are_RESTful_APIs_actually_RESTful
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tantek.com edited /API (+60) "/* Why are APIs so popular */ bold and link cargo cult development to WP article" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /API (+32) "/* Why are APIs so popular */ more specific link" (view diff)
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tommorris the number of times I end up saying at work “well, let’s try implementing both approaches and then test them to see which works” is interesting. and the number of times people think that’s slightly mad rather than a pretty basic part of engineering is worrying.
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aaronpk_ whaa now there are two of me
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aaronpk this is ridiculous. I see one thing tommorris said, and loqi saw a different thing in the logs.
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek I see like 7 lines from tommorris in a row
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aaronpk I see one, loqi sees one.
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aaronpk if we all connect to the same freenode server this will likely not be a problem
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tantek yeah that's only the last of the 7
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@FEOpsConf RT @designfeast: Added @FEOpsConf, @HybridConf, @IndieWebCamp, @2nightstand to list of conferences/summits/camps/meet-ups » http://t.co/dfR… (twitter.com/_/status/438383106392080385)
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tantek let me see if it works if I quote tommorris
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tantek tommorris: as for cargo cult software engineering: the fact that people would follow sites like Twitter or Facebook in their engineering decisions
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tantek tommorris: people stopped using Rails because Twitter had switched away from it
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tantek tommorris: or Google had switched away from using RDBMSes, so they just decided that RDBMSes were useless and switched to NoSQL or map-reduce
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tantek tommorris: even though relational databases are pretty useful and have been since the 60s.
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tantek tommorris: the number of times I end up saying at work “well, let’s try implementing both approaches and then test them to see which works” is interesting. and the number of times people think that’s slightly mad rather than a pretty basic part of engineering is worrying.
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bret did microformats not exist when atom/rss was getting started? how come two of basically the same thing came out of those efforts?
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bret i should read the wikipedia pages
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tantek bret or /history
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Loqi it is probable
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tantek rather http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline
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tantek RSS ~1999
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bret ohhh never seen that
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tantek microformats started ~2004-2005
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tantek dude, keep up ;)
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tommorris and there were a few things before 1999 like Microsoft’s CDF
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tantek bret, don't you check http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:RecentChanges every morning? ;)
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bret I just found the all pages page the other day ;)
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tantek tommorris see URL
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bret tantek: my eyes glaze over when I look at mediawiki change logs
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tantek or in particular http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#1997 :P
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tantek bret - I just command-click the pages that changed since and check their histories
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bret IRC logs = easier to read
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tantek open in new tabs, read each one, close
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bret but I miss stuff aparently
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tantek yeah - too many wiki pages to look through all of them in IRC
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aaronpk would be fun to make the recentchanges into an h-feed with h-entry so it can be subscribed to in a reader!
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tantek I like the grouping in RecentChanges
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tantek oh you may need to enable it in http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Preferences
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tantek go there, click the Recent changes tab
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tantek then under Advanced options
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tantek [x] Use enhanced recent changes
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tantek is niz
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tantek nice
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willnorris bret: but they have fundamentally different approaches anyway... an alternate machine readable format (rss/atom) vs embedding machine readable tags into the existing format (microformats). So even if the timeline were different, I would suspect both would have emerged... they just come from different schools of thought (my thoughts anyway)
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tommorris plumbing in my geonamer code seems to be working swimmingly. will write it up shortly.
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aaronpk oh hey that is nice
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aaronpk b 21
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tantek willnorris - well, I can tell you that from my perspective, the drive to seriously pursue microformats came from *trying* to make the XML-stack work at W3C in the early 2000s, realizing that the whole thing was a massive enterprise house of cards, and said screw it, how simple can we make this
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tantek and as part of that I realized all the side URLs / side files problem
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bret tantek: by grouping, do you mean enhanced recent changes? I dont see a grouping option
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tantek yes
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willnorris ah, okay... so it really was a response to the complexity of having different formats? In that case, perhaps it was a necessary predecessor to prove that the model doesn't work as well
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tantek yes bret
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tommorris is sorta XMLing and XSLTing but for a sorta sensible reason. ;)
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tantek willnorris, well a whole lot of supposedly smart people and companies had bought into the XML future
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bret ohhh much nicer
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tantek so I was like ok, let's see if we can make this work
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tantek uncovered enough problems that I realized, no they're not actually that smart. or rather, they're more talkers than builders.
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tantek this was in my IE5/Mac browser implementation days
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tantek so now any tech that is proposed/designed by talkers I pretty much dismiss on the spot
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tommorris RDF has the talkers problem. Only the talking is done in academic papers. ;)
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tantek so no, not about complexity. more about supposedly smart people making up a bunch of crap.
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willnorris got it
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tommorris The advantage of talking in academic papers is nobody has to listen.
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tantek seriously, XML is a billion dollar trainwreck
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tantek and at the heart of it is that talkers drove it, not creators, and certainly not sefldogfooders
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tantek s/sefldogfooders/selfdogfooders
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and at the heart of it is that talkers drove it, not creators, and certainly not selfdogfooders
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bret maybe they had a taste for inflicting pain on themselves (XML folks)
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tantek bret - nah, more like they were more philosophers than scientists/engineers
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tantek which works well for academic papers, specifications, etc.
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tantek and unfortunately a lot of cargo cult behavior followed
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bret didnt that academic paper generator get 10 papers pubished recently ;)
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tantek followed, I mean is still happening
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tantek there's no other explanation for how many people are pushing so many complex rocks up so many hills
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bret http://apps.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/scicache/99/scimakelatex.29820.Tantek+elik.Aaron+Parecki.Will+Norris.Tom+Morris.html
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bret lol sorry
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tantek that is really messed up bret
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aaronpk wat
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tantek hahahaha - "popularity of hash tables (Joules)" !!!!
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tantek "block size (cylinders)"
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tantek bret. that. is. so. wrong.
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tommorris tantek: h-feed should be deployed to my site in just a moment.
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tommorris as should my new geolocation code.
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tantek sweet!
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tommorris done
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tantek then you can add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek.com edited /hAtom (+39) "see h-feed" (view diff)
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bret tantek: good enough for journals: http://news.slashdot.org/story/14/02/25/006257/publishers-withdraw-more-than-120-fake-papers
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tantek.com created /APIs (+17) "r" (view diff)
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tantek bret: "shocked by how many papers were pot-boilers that disguised trivial ideas with inflated language. These were papers that had absolutely no discernible academic value other than to pad a resume, and collect but a smattering of citations, mostly from similar papers"
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bret academics are so screwed up
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bret but whatever, they are trying to do good things usually, and are resorce starved and grants are super competative
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Jeena has now added h-feed too but couldn't find a validator for it like http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2F
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tantek Jeena - nice!
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tantek you can use pin13
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tantek jeena, one typo - search for h-name
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tantek um aaronpk - why is http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjeena.net%2F returning no items?
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tantek I see plenty of h-feed h-entry in the source
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Jeena tantek what is the typo?
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tantek h-name should be p-name
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Jeena oh
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tantek ;)
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Jeena I'm still not quite getting all the meanings of the prefixes yet
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Jeena u- is for url that I get ^^
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: no hurry getting to the pull request for mf2py. I might not be adding anything new this week. Too many other thigns to do
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willnorris.com edited /h-feed (+295) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek Jeena, not quite.
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Jeena haha not even that? ok
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tantek u- means parse for URL attribute *first*, and treat them according to the document semantics
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tantek it does NOT mean that the thing is a URL "type"
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tantek the prefixes are purely parsing instructions, not "types"
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Jeena I see
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tantek you can have <span class="p-url">http://tantek.com/</span> for example
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Jeena and url attribute can be src or href, etc.=
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willnorris.com edited /h-feed (+0) "/* Will Norris */" (view diff)
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Jeena ?
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Jeena oh hm ok
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: thanks. will look at some point.
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tommorris just geonoodling.
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Jeena tantek the pin13.net server has problems with my ssl certificate afar
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tantek jeena - it says precisely in the parsing spec: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property
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tantek Jeena - oh right, that problem
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tantek I think barnabywalters has a parser thing too
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tantek http://waterpigs.co.uk/php-mf2/
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Jeena yeah I can parse it with the ruby parser too, no problem, the webindify me one has just a really nice UI
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tommorris At some point, I’ll put up a Heroku instance with mf2py
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tommorris so people can test it interactively
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tantek Jeena, speaking of microformats parsing for iPhone, you can use some of the Javascript solutions here: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Implementations
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tantek !tell barnabywalters Indiewebifyme feature request: h-feed parsing/validating similar to current h-entry parsing/validating
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Jeena tommorris this could be a cool test suite actually, and add a link to your github issues so people really file bugs too :)
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Jeena ok mf2 seems to parse my index page like I intended
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aaronpk tantek: it's cause my server still can't figure out Jeena's ssl cert
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willnorris https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=jeena.net generally looks good. :-\
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aaronpk yeah it's something to do with the root cert. but other sites signed by startssl work fine from that server
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tommorris http://tommorris.org/posts/8822 - now got geolocation synthesised.
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tantek.com edited /Events (+254) "add dates for SF since they're now set!" (view diff)
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Jeena tommorris are you using your phone to post posts with a location?
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Jeena or where do you get the lat and lng from?
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tommorris in that case, I typed it in manually. but, yes, W3C Geolocation API. ;)
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Jeena ah ok
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Jeena show a map on that site!
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tommorris click the “London”.
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Jeena yeah bug show a static picture of a map
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tommorris could do.
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tommorris for me, it’s mostly just so I can have something like a byline.
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tantek and I just invited (dared?) public-fedsocweb@w3.org to upcoming indiewebcamps
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Jeena "http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=" + lat.toString() + "&mlon=" + lng.toString() + "&zoom=12";
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caseorganic tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 23 karma
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aaronpk lol!
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tantek http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fedsocweb/2014Feb/0025.html
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Jeena tommorris what is a byline?
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Jeena hehe tantek
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aaronpk "No paper submission needed. If you're able to setup your site to be able to RSVP, you're in."
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aaronpk yay
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Loqi yay!
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tantek yeah - I decided a little bit of a "in your face!" post was ok ;)
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tommorris Jeena: a dateline rather. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dateline
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Jeena "If you're able to setup your site to be able to RSVP, you're in." nice ^^
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tantek besides, we want to braindrain the best of the best away from public-fedsocweb
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Jeena hm I see
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tantek this is why "talker culture" is dead and just doesn't know it yet
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Jeena hm I never heard of a <data> tag in HTML, hm, and is the geo class a microformats thing?
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tantek yes and yes
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tommorris data is one of my favourite tags in HTML
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tantek why does this not surprise me tommorris? ;)
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tommorris There’s lots of <data> on my site.
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tantek tommorris, ahem: http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#IndieWeb_Examples
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jeena.net edited /h-feed (+123) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added user jeena" (view diff)
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Jeena hm http://microformats.org/wiki/geo has no examples of title="lat;lng"
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Jeena and why not use h-geo?
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tommorris.org edited /h-feed (+139) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +me" (view diff)
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bret ugghhh, the text in the quitelevel in that email thread are unreadable
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tommorris tantek: what you say about the geo tags on my site?
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tommorris I’m fairly sure that was allowed at one point.
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/SF () "(-3475) /* IndieWebCampSF 2014 */ Moved Guest List to new page, added categories: 2014 and Events. Added info about flights and hotel, additional metadata." (view diff)
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caseorganic.com created /2014/SF_Guest_List (+7389) "Added SF 2014 Guest List Page" (view diff)
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caseorganic.com edited /2014/SF_Guest_List (+33) "/* Event */" (view diff)
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Jeena some people use no space between a word and a smily like this:) which kind of irritates me
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aaronpk cringe
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KartikPrabhu so much XML-type love in this: http://alistapart.com/article/battle-for-the-body-field
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tantek "By combining the best of XML and structured web content" -hahaha
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tantek what if "the best of XML" is a net negative? What then?
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KartikPrabhu agrees
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KartikPrabhu and articles like this seem to suggest that Web Components are a better way of doing XML-type things. Which is why I do not understand the former...
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KartikPrabhu all of this seems to be complicating HTML without any actual benefit
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iboxifoo.com edited /events/2014-02-26-homebrew-website-club (+86) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Events (+255) "/* Upcoming */ add dates for UK since we know dConstruct is 2014-09-05" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu - the benefit is to Drupal consultancies. E.g. that the author of the article works for!
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KartikPrabhu possibly. But it surely does not solve the problem setup in the beginning of the article
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Jeena hehe the first comment sets the article in perspective
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tantek yeah
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tantek I'm not sure why ALA published that
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tantek it's crap
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Loqi lolz
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tantek nothing practical for anyone
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tommorris "Screenshot of Wikipedia’s custom rich-text editor, with assistive tools for Wiki-specific markup"
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tommorris That’s not a screenshot of Wikipedia’s rich text editor. That’s a screenshot of Wikipedia’s markup editor with a bunch of JS. The one that Wikimedia are in the process of replacing.
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tommorris Precisely because having editors have to remember thousands of template names, arguments and then bolt-on hacks to support them wasn’t really working out
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tommorris There’s a legitimate point to that ALA article: there’s a mismatch between our authorship tools and the sort of things we can do on the web.
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KartikPrabhu But on some level it seems to me that people are saying "I want to write a book in Japanese but I don't want to learn Japanese!"
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KartikPrabhu Our writing tools may need improvement, but certainly authours would have to learn something
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tommorris The web exists to serve humans. A reporter or blogger shouldn’t need to know what the box model is.
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KartikPrabhu of course not the box model. But they might have to learn some markup/template codes. Else they can just write in plain text and put it in a CMS.
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tommorris Well, the problem is that CMSes usually suck because of no-dogfooding
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tommorris They are built and sold on feature lists rather than feature needs.
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bret http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2014/02/app-pocalypse-now.html spot on
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KartikPrabhu of course. Like i said "our tools may need improvement"
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tommorris The crazy thing about apps is the times when you install an app on your phone and can’t use the functionality on your desktop computer.
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KartikPrabhu http://geekandpoke.typepad.com/geekandpoke/2010/12/the-free-model.html this. this. is awesome!
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KartikPrabhu from the article bret linked
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aaronpk giggles at that email thread
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tommorris I now have a 13” RetinaBook - the thing has the same resolution as an HDTV! - but I have to grab a smartphone to do certain things.
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tommorris My online banking is unusable. But the app on my phone isn’t. It does 80% of what I want to do on my online banking but without requiring me to sacrifice burnt offerings to the security gods. So I use the phone version and not the desktop version.
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tantek tommorris, KartikPrabhu, I heard that Markdown solves all these problems. ;)
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tommorris Markdown solves many of the problems. The smartest thing Markdown did was allow you to still use HTML
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tantek tommorris - install a simulator for your smartphone on your laptop? ;)
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KartikPrabhu yeah. I quite like Markdown too. but you still need to write raw html to do somethings
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tantek KartikPrabhu - genius!
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tantek that needs to go on the silio page
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tommorris So you can **strongly** *emphasise* things and [link](http://to.stuff.org) but when you need to <kbd>echo what you type</kbd>.
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aaronpk i can never remember if ** or * is bold or italic
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aaronpk also i think mediawiki does it opposite or something
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aaronpk such confuse.
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KartikPrabhu agrees with tommorris
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tommorris MediaWiki does ‘’’bold’’’, ‘’italic’’, and ‘’’’’bold italic’’’’'.
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KartikPrabhu sad that Editorially closed shop :'(
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tantek aaronpk, nothing about the * symbol says italic to me
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tommorris Except without the fancy quotes that my computer decided to add.
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tantek if say /POSSE/ then that looks like tilt it slightly like italics
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tantek that's a major failure Markdown
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tommorris MediaWiki using apostrophes for quoting is ludicrous.
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tantek MediaWiki apostrophes for bold/italic are much *worse* to be clear :)
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tommorris You know how you type “L’<strong>ordinateur</strong>” in MW syntax? L’<nowiki></nowki
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tommorris L’<nowiki></nowiki>’’’ordinateur’''
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KartikPrabhu confused
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tommorris because otherwise the strong would be triggered by the first three apostrophes.
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tommorris The first apostrophe should be an apostrophe. The second, third and fourth should be the bold trigger.
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tommorris That’s what you get when your parser is a bunch of PHP regex hacks.
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tantek.com edited /silo (+186) "/* Popular Silos */ free model" (view diff)
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tommorris And that’s why the parser has been rewritten in the last year or so.
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tantek KartikPrabhu - your fault: http://indiewebcamp.com/silo#Popular_Silos
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tantek ;)
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KartikPrabhu I take full responsibility even though bret linked to the article in which I found it :)
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tommorris “App.net” “popular”.
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tantek.com created /apps (+225) "stub" (view diff)
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 14 minutes ago: Indiewebifyme feature request: h-feed parsing/validating similar to current h-entry parsing/validating
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tantek.com created /platforms (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /platform (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /apps to /app
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tantek.com edited /app (+91) "XKCD 1174 FTW" (view diff)
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tantek fine, bret, this is your fault: http://indiewebcamp.com/apps
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KartikPrabhu haha!!
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tantek man Loqi you're slow with the wiki edits
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Loqi is done
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tantek love that there is a canonical XKCD for the app problem
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tantek 1174
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tantek got to remember that
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KartikPrabhu I have just started closing tabs that show me pop-ups to "do other things". Sorry you ain't getting my eyeballs
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aaronpk WHOA just got a bunch of messages in a row. man poor freenode today.
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aaronpk you can't all have typed that within 2 seconds
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tantek.com edited /app (+41) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek boom
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KartikPrabhu I think Loqi has a hangover
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KevinMarks is there a homebrew website club tomorrow?
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KevinMarks interesting trend at launch - hackathon apps all about "anonymous"
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tantek tommorris, oh hey, one year since http://tommorris.org/posts/8070 !
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tantek KevinMarks - duh. Snapchat, then Secret
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tantek see above about cargo cult
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tantek ;)
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tommorris tantek: was about to link that.
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KartikPrabhu that is the first article I read on tommorris.org :)
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barnabywalters haha loving that definition of “app” ;)
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KevinMarks yes, but this was 'anonymous ticket trading at venues"
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KartikPrabhu before discovering IWC
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barnabywalters I suppose things which aren’t doable (…yet…) as web apps like Logic are grown-up Applications rather than apps ;)
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tantek.com edited /app (+127) "another article, dates, titles" (view diff)
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KevinMarks like this, barnaby? http://midiwasynth.appspot.com
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KevinMarks ;)
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tantek.com created /Apps (+17) "r" (view diff)
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: yep, that’s a *little* way of Logic yet :)
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tantek.com created /App (+17) "r" (view diff)
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tommorris.org edited /app (+1654) "The problem with apps." (view diff)
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tommorris tantek: enjoy ^^
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tommorris.org edited /app (-3) "weird char" (view diff)
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tommorris the @facebook.com bit is hilarious
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tommorris We’re just gonna add new URIs (mailto:) to your address book. And now we’re gonna break them.
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2014-02-26-homebrew-website-club (+86) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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aaronpk wait facebook is dropping their email address thingy?
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KartikPrabhu yup
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aaronpk oh jeez
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aaronpk that launchedin 2010?!
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tommorris they are just going to redirect to your primary email or whatever email you specify
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KevinMarks no, they're forwarding them to your other registered email
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KartikPrabhu i wonder how the whatsface thing'll turn out
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tantek tommorris - very nice
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tantek haha even facebook is dropping email
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tantek see email is dead ;)
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KevinMarks so the thing Google got shit for with mailing g+ users becomes a way for anyon to mail you based on your fb handle
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KevinMarks they're shitting directly into your inbox
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KevinMarks "that stuff no-one looked at on our site - it'll be in your inbox"
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KartikPrabhu or phones given the whatsapp acquisition
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tommorris https://twitter.com/RealPlayer - still a thing.
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tantek Kevinmarks, good point. Perhaps FB sees this as a way to make email more worthless
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tantek e.g. driving more spam etc. to Gmail
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tantek even more insiduous
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KevinMarks but they still require an email to login with - or are they trying to get everyone to switch to phone numbers so the whatsapp merger makes sense?
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barnabywalters yuk, signing in with phone numbers, really?
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KartikPrabhu Facebook did ask me for my phone number everytime i logged in this week
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willnorris pretty sure you can already sign in to FB with your phone number
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tantek Kevinmarks, yes they bought phonedb
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tantek *a* phone db
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tommorris let’s trade one old functional property for identity for an even more irrelevant and old functional property.
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KevinMarks yes, you've been abel to for a while.
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tantek Kevinmarks - have you seen the sophistication of the FB account recovery options? Quite clever
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tantek they're clearly trying to get away from email-as-recovery-mechanism
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tantek and once that's gone, there's no need for email to sign-up
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tantek you just, sign-up
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KevinMarks not tried them recently, but makes sense
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KartikPrabhu tantek: is that a good thing?
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KartikPrabhu as in no email-as-recovery-mechanism
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: not sure it’s a good or a bad thing. just another development in the Facebook shitshow. ;)
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tantek kartikprabhu - it's too often a hack vector
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KevinMarks the reason WhatsApp worked well was that it was phone-number centric - so migration form texts was easy
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tantek Twitter could have been WhatsApp
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tantek if they hadn't neglected DM UI so badly
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KevinMarks more to the point, Jaiku could have bee
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KartikPrabhu speaking of texts, the Google Hangouts app now hijacks my text sending/recieving!
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tantek Kevinmarks - Jaiku never scaled. Twitter did.
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KevinMarks as they had apps on all the weird phone platforms
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tantek WhatsApp was about scaling + UI.
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KevinMarks jaiku didn't get the chance to scale 'cos google broke the team up and shut down signups
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tantek kevinmarks, jaiku didn't get the chance to scale because THEY SOLD TO GOOGLE.
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KevinMarks yep
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tantek WhatsApp scaled *before* selling. That's the key.
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tommorris Friend of mine just got Adobe spam inviting him to "increase Wikipedia's return on marketing investment”. When was the last time you saw an ad for Wikipedia? Wikipedia’s marketing budget is $0. They get a pretty good ROI. ;)
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KevinMarks well, youtube scaled after selling
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KevinMarks but yes,it's rare
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tantek Youtube had to sell because of the lawsuit burden they were facing
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tantek but yeah, rare, that youtube survived the toxic Google acquisition shutdown culture.
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tantek maybe it was early enough?
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KevinMarks it was around the same time as dodgeball and jaiku
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KevinMarks writely managed it too
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KevinMarks it's a politics crapshoot
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tantek ah ok
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tommorris Flickr is sort of surviving.
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KevinMarks2 I need lunch. I didn't have breakfast
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tantek tommorris - only because Stuart and Caterina fought and outmaneuvered the Yahoo middle-management incredibly well
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tommorris might start posting pictures on Flickr as my stop-gap photo site.
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tommorris I post a fair amount to Commons but you have to get the metadata right before posting there
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barnabywalters aaronpk: presumably you’re already aware of this, but cat.photography is now parked by godaddy, apparently up for sale :)
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aaronpk !!!
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barnabywalters tantek: any plans to add all these ridiculous new TLDs to the cassis auto linker? or wait until people start using them unironically?
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tantek barnabywalters I think the code has a comment about that
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aaronpk I thought whitelisting TLDs was bad practice for autolinkers
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tantek // .mobi .jobs deliberately excluded to discourage layer violations.
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tantek // see http://flic.kr/p/2kmuSL for more on the problematic new gTLDs
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barnabywalters that’s the first time a code comment has ever directed me towards a flickr link for more information
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aaronpk hahahaha
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KartikPrabhu tantek: lol
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aaronpk well .mobi is not the same problem as all the new TLDs
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tantek so no, we vote against them by breaking them
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aaronpk oh I remember .tel
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aaronpk that flickr thread links to http://blog.tommorris.org/post/3968125126/tel-xxx-and-mobi-are-all-pointless-and-idiotic
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tantek "Warning: I’m pretty goddamn angry." - imagines Tom Morris as the Hulk
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tantek hmm blog.tommorris.org is on Tumblr. didn't all those URLs get move to being Ferocity hosted on tommorris.org?
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barnabywalters oh good grief the one .tel domain I know of contains an email monstrosity: http://edent.tel/
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barnabywalters edent.tel@shkspr.mobi
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tantek irony: all the .tel sites support hCard
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tantek (no, seriously)
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KartikPrabhu wait! so .mobi is a TLD for mobile versions on sites?
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KartikPrabhu /s/on/of
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tantek ./a/bitch
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aaronpk shh don't say it out loud
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tantek goes to wash his mouth out.
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KartikPrabhu hands tantek seom soap
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tommorris tantek: yeah, it’s on my very slow to process list of next actions
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KartikPrabhu yeah .mobi is dumb. With all this responsive thing going on how the hell did .mobi pass?
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: because the people who make the decisions are more interested in buying new designer suits and private jets than they are technical merit.
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KartikPrabhu so someone can pay ICANN to make more TLDs?
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tommorris you make a proposal to ICANN for a new gTLD.
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KartikPrabhu really doesn't know how this works
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tommorris That proposal is accompanied with a couple of suitcases worth of money.
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KartikPrabhu sounds like a bribe/prostitution...
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KartikPrabhu might regret saying that once .mobi is overlord
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tommorris .mobi ain’t going anywhere: once a GTLD is in, it’s kinda gotta stay. but at the same time, there’s no point in buying a .mobi
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tommorris and not all GTLD proposals are money-grubbing bastardery.
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KartikPrabhu of course. didn't mean to imply that
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tommorris there’s a proposal for .eco - for charities and organisations doing ecological stuff. and the money would go to some kind of environmental fund.
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tommorris and the Lesbian and Gay Foundation proposed .gay, but Saudi Arabia’s ICANN rep blocked it. see: http://tommorris.org/posts/2522
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KartikPrabhu that piece of news i knew
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tommorris (if .gay comes into existence, I’m going to register “not.gay” and point it to whichever right-wing fundamentalist just got caught in an airport bathroom with a wide stance.)
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KartikPrabhu lols
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KevinMarks2 Who got euthan.asia?
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KevinMarks2 Or aph.asia?
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aaronpk heh, just noticed that zach holman uses github issues instead of email: https://github.com/holman/feedback
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tommorris Formspring for nerds. ;)
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snarfed aaronpk: hope i wasn't too snarky with the github-issue-as-email i sent you a while back
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snarfed couldn't resist
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aaronpk ha oops apparently I wasn't "watching" that repo so didn't get notified :)
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snarfed oh man
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snarfed irony on top of irony
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aaronpk of course "watching" means I get emails when issues are opened :)
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snarfed and they show up in your GH feed (and its RSS feed, etc)
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snarfed i know how unfashionable it is around here, but i still use a feed reader for almost everything, including GH, all silos, etc
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aaronpk i just set up a feed reader! reading microformats of course
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snarfed i know! i love that work you did on selfoss
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snarfed gotta try it myself
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snarfed i know readers are fine around here
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snarfed i meant rss/atom
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aaronpk ah
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snarfed i don't plan to argue merits, but they're supported almost everywhere today, which is nice :P
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tommorris uses feedbin.me and Reeder.
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snarfed misses google reader
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snarfed but treasures the reader engineer we have at quip :P
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF (+29) "add Guest_List id for inbound links to work" (view diff)
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tantek caseorganic ^^^ reminder
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tantek when moving sections like that to their own pages, leave in a placeholder so previous fragment links still work! e.g. any http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF#Guest_List that may have been shared with people
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF (+15) "/* RSVP */ bold" (view diff)
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caseorganic tantek: great
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: now that mf2py is more functional a python-based mf2 reader is a good possibility
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tantek also beware of YYYY copy pasta
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: totally!
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF_Guest_List (-2) "update YYYY copy pasta" (view diff)
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tommorris KartikPrabhu, snarfed: mf2py for h-feed, Universal Feed Parser for everything else
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KartikPrabhu looks for Universal Feed Parser
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aaronpk fixed. now I get IRC notifications of my /self repo
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KartikPrabhu snarfed, tommorris: nice. Did not know about the universal feed parser. Looks like a good project as a fallback to RSS/ATOM
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KartikPrabhu ref: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/feedparser
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tommorris the only problem is that mark pilgrim seems to have sadly disappeared
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tommorris and diveintomark.org just redirects to godaddy
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KartikPrabhu seems kurt mckee has taken over
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tommorris ah okay
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tommorris one day he just decided to “410 Gone"
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tommorris :(
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KartikPrabhu but even that is 2010-2012 on the pypi page
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bear the state of rss/atom hasn't moved in any meaningful way - so feedparser hasn't had to do much to keep up
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KartikPrabhu quite possible
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bear adding mf2 to it's url/file handling would be a nice addition
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tommorris mf2py needs a bit more maturity before I’d subject feedparser uses to it. ;)
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bear sure, but us early adopter types who are using python can enjoy it now :)
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tommorris has setup redirection from blog.tommorris.org (Tumblr) to tommorris.org (ferocity, self-hosted)
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Loqi [mention] http://nxd4n.nixekinder.be/was-mir-noch-zu-reclaim-einfallt/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (pingback)
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KevinMarks2 Talking to neo/dg about using their market Street offices for indieWebcamp
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willnorris.com edited /2014/SF (+52) "/* Sponsor */ Google will sponsor dinner on Friday" (view diff)
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aaronpk KevinMarks2: we got a spot already did you see the wiki?
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willnorris so Google will pick up dinner next friday. Any recommendations on where? I don't spend any time in SF anymore, so don't know what's good
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KevinMarks2 No, I heard that it was possible
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aaronpk thanks willnorris!!
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KevinMarks2 Are we good at the embassy then?
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aaronpk yep we're all set with them, caseorganic confirmed and updated the wiki
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caseorganic KevinMarks2: yes! just got confirmation. we're all set!
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caseorganic YAY!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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KevinMarks2 Neo/dg have a good space - big co-working space, with a retail store front on market and breakout spaces inside
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caseorganic KevinMarks2: ah, how much room? think we can organize the next indiewebcamp there?
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caseorganic KevinMarks2: it might be nice for the first sf one to be smaller
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KevinMarks2 Retail space is about 40. Main room about 160, lots of breakout space.
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kartikprabhu.com edited /IRC_People (+0) "sorted by irc nick" (view diff)
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KevinMarks2 Which is busy on Friday but freeer on Saturday, if they can get a staff person to cover
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caseorganic KevinMarks2: wow that's great!