#indiewebcamp 2014-02-27

2014-02-27 UTC
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tantek.com edited /search (+33) "/* Ben Werdmuller */ date and mongodb" (view diff)
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benwerd (All my search pages also have feeds / microformats, of course, & from my stats I think some people are subscribing to my idno hashtag. Guess drawings of Nicolas Cage and puns about programming are less interesting to them.)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-meeting-1 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-26-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek thanks benwerd!
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benwerd No problem
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benwerd sorry I've been _very_ slow this time round
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tantek it's ok. plenty of slowness all around this week and next.
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Jeena Some day there will be a Homebrew Website Club Meeting in Sweden which even I can attend ^^
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benwerd Jeena: that sounds like a plan. Never been to Sweden.
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benwerd Planning on heading back to Europe this summer and I'd love that to be part of the mix.
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Jeena sadly I don't know any people from sweden in this community
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Jeena I'm not sure there are any who are active
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aaronpk what part of sweden?
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aaronpk we met a bunch of cool people in Malmö
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Jeena I'm on the west coast, so Gothenburg, perhaps Malmö
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Jeena but I could travel to Stockholm too
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-02-26_re-homebrew-website-club-meeting-2 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-26-homebrew-website-club (pingback)
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Jeena it is funny how small we used to make the font-size in the early 2000 http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html has 10px font size
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aaronpk I miss that font size honestly
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Jeena hehe I do not, I hated it :-p
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snarfed Jeena++
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Loqi Jeena has 4 karma
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tantek oh boy. Jeena how did you come across that.
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Jeena hehe I don't know I was reading some old article about the box model stuff and they mentioned the "box model hack" and I didn't quite now what it is so I googled it
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benwerd 8px silkscreen ftw
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@caseorganic IndieWebCamp San Francisco will be at Embassy Network Fri, 3/7/14 to Sat 3/8/14! RSVP here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/02/26/2/) (twitter.com/_/status/438835559885058049)
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Loqi [mention] http://caseorganic.com/notes/2014/02/26/2/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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@sandeepshetty Got a few keybase.io invites to give out if anyone is interested. I'm at https://keybase.io/sandeepshetty #indieweb #fb (twitter.com/_/status/438836856969392128)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/caseorganic/438835559885058049/438836281217273856 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/caseorganic/438835559885058049/438836777290178561 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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aaronpk oh man what is going on with sandeep's timezone? "Thu Feb 27 00:43:54 +05:1800 2014" from the twitter api
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@_jden RT @caseorganic: IndieWebCamp San Francisco will be at Embassy Network Fri, 3/7/14 to Sat 3/8/14! RSVP here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/438837336194170880)
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aaronpk that's a great question actually: http://twtr.io/iYiUyLX8Wy
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aaronpk should we have a one-day RSVP section on the wiki too?
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tantek good to see that sandeepshetty is still alive :)
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aaronpk indeed
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tantek he's like a comet
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tantek aaronpk: given the limited capacity I'd rather not dilute with one day attendance
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aaronpk that should be in the FAQ then :)
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tantek I think that hurt IndieWebCampHollywood :/
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aaronpk ah yeah
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tantek it causes a sense of lack of commitment, or lack of context, or both :(
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tantek maybe we can have "waitlist only" for single days
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tantek so if they show up, and there's room day of, they can come
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-02-26_re-2014sf-indiewebcamp linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (pingback)
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@_jden @caseorganic I'm having issues logging in with indieauth https://cloudup.com/cgRQmegaWFn /cc @aaronpk (twitter.com/_/status/438838655869014016)
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aaronpk oops
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tantek heh
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tantek adding a waitlist for single days section now
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@JavaScriptFest IndieWebCamp on the lineup! http://jsfest.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/438839107943268353)
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF/Guest_List (+774) "add Single Day Waitlists section" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - there you go: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF/Guest_List#Single_Day_Waitlists
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/caseorganic/438835559885058049/438837423414726658 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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tantek with reasonings included
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/caseorganic/438835559885058049/438837705334464512 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/caseorganic/438835559885058049/438837336194170880 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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jden.us edited /2014/SF/Guest_List (+644) "Add Saturday Only section" (view diff)
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tantek uh Jden, there's already a section
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tantek hmmm
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jden.us edited /2014/SF/Guest_List (+1) "/* Saturday Only */ fix close table" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, caseorganic, I'm going to move Jden to the Saturday wait list section
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tantek is he on IRC?
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tantek can you ping him to get in here?
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aaronpk no but he was just asking me about indieauth on twitter
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jden.us edited /2014/SF/Guest_List (+0) "/* Official Guest List */ update attendee count" (view diff)
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@aaronpk @_jden Want to jump in IRC real quick? http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/02/26/5/) (twitter.com/_/status/438843022294261760)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/02/26/5/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (webmention)
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aaronpk man the twitter api is fast
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jden aaronpk: o/
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aaronpk lol after clickign the email verification link from keybase: "You've successfully verified your email address, against all odds."
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aaronpk jden: welcome!
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tantek welcome jden!
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jden howdy tantek
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tantek hey we just discussed one-day only attending above
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tantek (sorry, in the logs)
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tantek and we're using waitlists for single days
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tantek moving your RSVP now...
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tantek.com edited /2014/SF/Guest_List (-184) "move Saturday only attendee section to Saturday waitlist per discussion in IRC" (view diff)
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tantek move complete: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF/Guest_List#Single_Day_Waitlists
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tantek the sections were actually there before you edited - sorry for the miscommunication
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jden cool - just read up
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tantek thanks for understanding!
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jden sorry bout that - feel free to revert my commits
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tantek jden - no trouble at all! you're alll set for Saturday waitlist!
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tantek We're almost certainly going to be able to accomodate
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tantek just wanted to set expectations appropriately
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jden sounds good. I'd love to come both days, but I'm missing so many week/work-days in March as-is that I'd feel kinda guilty
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tantek your commits were fine - I just moved your RSVP :)
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tantek jden - perhaps you can find a way to enable indieweb sites as part of your CfA work and work on that on Friday :D
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jden next week is our first week back from fellowship residency - and we have Monday off as jlord day, so...
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aaronpk ha interesting... sandeepshetty just sent me an encrypted email. I want to reply to him and acknowledge/prove that I received his message. I can copy his decrypted message into mine and quote it to indicate as such, but is there a better way of doing that?
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tantek is slowly stepping back from the crypto-identity-proof discussion.
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aaronpk ha don't worry
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aaronpk keybase is an interesting attempt at making this stuff more accessible. gpg has always been too hard for me to really engage with, i'm curious if this makes it easier.
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tantek yes I'm looking forward to seeing how keybase does
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tantek I am enjoying the renewed interest and innovation in this sapce
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tantek s/sapce/space
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Loqi tantek meant to say: I am enjoying the renewed interest and innovation in this space
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KevinMarks Yes atom.io is an is an IDE
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@krosti RT @JavaScriptFest: IndieWebCamp on the lineup! http://jsfest.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/438848559690285056)
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aaronpk whoa i may have just been dos'd
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aaronpk so apparently I need to do a talk "how to recover from a synflood attack"
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aaronpk so that I can learn how to recover from a synflood attack
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tantek yikes
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tantek ok I'm out to grab a coffee then will be back to try to do a better job at setting up video :/
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tantek HWC meetup tonight!
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KevinMarks !tell tantek heading over there soon if I can help with video
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk how am I supposed to recover from 2mbps SYN flood
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aaronpk perhaps this is the needle in the coffin for this server
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aaronpk is that a thing
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aaronpk nail in the coffin? needle in the haystack?
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KevinMarks The straw that broke the camels back?
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gRegor` On http://indiewebcamp.com/2014 to-dos, I'm interested in helping with "improve the design and layout of this page since it will be the primary point of entry for many people"
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gRegor` I'm not sure how much we can tweak with mediawiki though.
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KevinMarks There was a fair bit of twerking on the microformats wiki
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KevinMarks S/twerking/tweaking/
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gRegor` Hahaha
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aaronpk at least the indiewebcamp wiki is on a different server
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snarfed twerks on the microformats wiki
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aaronpk man this is not something I expected to be doing right now
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gRegor` IndieTwerkCamp
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aaronpk ok server is running and port 80 is disabled. now how can I find out what IP is attacking me?
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pdurbin aaronpk: netstat?
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aaronpk but i'm dropping any attempt at connecting to port 80, because if I don't, then I get synflooded
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pdurbin hmm. log the drops from iptables? lightly :)
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pdurbin aaronpk: ok. logs for this channel are down. duh :)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk all sorts of stuff
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pdurbin but Loqi is still here and logging away, presumably
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aaronpk different server
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aaronpk the DB is also a different server luckily
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pdurbin +1
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@LindaWestonpdx RT @caseorganic: IndieWebCamp San Francisco will be at Embassy Network Fri, 3/7/14 to Sat 3/8/14! RSVP here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/438855005366255616)
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pdurbin aaronpk: I put out a call for help: http://irclog.perlgeek.de/crimsonfu/2014-02-27 I'm not the smartest guy in that room :)
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 31 minutes ago: heading over there soon if I can help with video
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tantek aaronpk - no dice - even though I got here at 17:55. I'm going to have to get trained on our video equipment so I can do it myself.
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@kevinmarks Homebrew Website Club #indieweb (@ Mozilla San Francisco - @mozsf) http:///login?continue=%2Fkevinmarks%2Fcheckin%2F530ea32f498ef58b3c6351d0 (twitter.com/_/status/438863589055954944)
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aaronpk tantek: darn!
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: Homebrew Website Club #indieweb (@ Mozilla San Francisco - @mozsf) http:///login?continue=%2Fkevinmarks%2Fcheckin%2F530ea32f498ef58b3c6351d0 (twitter.com/_/status/438864189491523585)
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tantek small meeting tonight
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aaronpk here too
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benwerd That's an odd URL
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benwerd Sorry for not making it tonight, SF folks
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tantek benwerd - it might be Loqi screwing up the unmangling of Twitter's URL
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Loqi is done
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benwerd Sounds like Loqi's had a hard day
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aaronpk ok server is back up
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tantek Thank you KevinMarks for demonstrating a problem with Twitter and t.co
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tantek perfect discussion topic for tonight
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KevinMarks_ loqi seems to have made a weird url from following t.co chains
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pdurbin aaronpk: what was the fix?
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tantek Brian: when you embed a tweet via Twitter's HTML embed markup, what happens if someone deletes the original tweet?
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tantek tantek: the HTML embed includes a JS script, perhaps that hides the tweet?
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tantek tantek: don't know, would be worth an experiment
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tantek aaronpk, any idea why/how Loqi created those http:///login? URLs above ^^^^ from t.co URLs?
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tantek tantek: there used to be a service tweetcc that allowed explicit discoverable licensing of Tweets: https://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/12942
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tantek tantek: not sure of its current status
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KevinMarks_ the html includes the source of the tweet in a blockquote - see the first two here that have been deleted: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/04/draw-something-ceo-grace-and-high.html
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aaronpk i think foursquare sends a 301 to the checkin if you're not logged in (which loqi isn't of course)
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KevinMarks_ i got a series of 301s with curl
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KevinMarks_ http://t.co/Nn0DxcGoCo to http://4sq.com/1ca55PV to https://foursquare.com/kevinmarks/checkin/530ea32f498ef58b3c6351d0?s=stY7_cuXjhLvgoD1x8QfMPsUgSw&ref=tw
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aaronpk (loqi apparently isn't doing relative redirect resolving, so if the redirect doesn't contain the hostname it'll output here wrong)
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KevinMarks_ tantek is talking about problems with standards and interop
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: there are a lot of standards being developed outside the core standards bodies like IETF and w3c - like whatwg (twitter.com/_/status/438871812148310016)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: Apache got fed up with w3c process a while ago. Trouble is that nobody changes their mind in public any more (twitter.com/_/status/438871947901153280)
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@Shoq RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: Apache got fed up with w3c process a while ago. Trouble is that nobody changes their mind in pu… (twitter.com/_/status/438872051353677824)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: if you can talk with people in person you can often change their minds and then have it formally reflected (twitter.com/_/status/438872316366565376)
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@6SigmaProEngr RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: Apache got fed up with w3c process a while ago. Trouble is that nobody changes their mind in pu… (twitter.com/_/status/438872346058063872)
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tantek discussing OAuth vs. OpenID
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tantek permissions vs. identity
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I tried to implement OpenID at http://ostpc.gov - if you used Yahoo's OpenID you got a horrible ugly url (twitter.com/_/status/438872712908644352)
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KevinMarks_ John talking about 2-factor auth
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KevinMarks_ PCIDSS specifies nothing about memory scraping
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to end encryption (twitter.com/_/status/438875784833662976)
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@johnallsopp RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to… (twitter.com/_/status/438875841401856000)
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@oevl RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to… (twitter.com/_/status/438875943193812992)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: can we ensure that privacy against people who have nuclear weapons? John: I can give them a run for their money (twitter.com/_/status/438876000563515392)
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@theurv RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to… (twitter.com/_/status/438876001745924096)
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KevinMarks_ the solution is defence in depth- layers of defence
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@kevinmarks #indieweb "think of security as like a block of swiss cheese - you don't want those holes to line up and make a path through" (twitter.com/_/status/438876495088336896)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I want to harden myself to a reasonable level of security, but not form state-level actors (twitter.com/_/status/438876660621119488)
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@sandeepshetty First encrypted and signed #indieweb comment using PGP (thanks to Keybase.io) http://www.sandeep.io/178 #webmention /cc @maxtaco @malgorithms (twitter.com/_/status/438876724235747328)
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb "think of security as like a block of swiss cheese - you don't want those holes to line up and make a path throug… (twitter.com/_/status/438876821577531392)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iboxifoo: I worry about the silos creating attractive pools of data that is worth hacking (twitter.com/_/status/438876988909318144)
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: I want to harden myself to a reasonable level of security, but not form state-level actors (twitter.com/_/status/438877066063527936)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: the NTP amplification attack last week meant that NTP daemons could be used to DDoS others (twitter.com/_/status/438877210855096320)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we care less about use of resources than compromising our private data (twitter.com/_/status/438877325145694208)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we want to be abel to send and host private messages peer to peer without them being compromised (twitter.com/_/status/438877534441467904)
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@oevl RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: we want to be abel to send and host private messages peer to peer without them being compromised (twitter.com/_/status/438877682210988032)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: if you want to host an email server you want to make sure you aren't on a host that has been blacklisted before (twitter.com/_/status/438877705426444288)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: email is not hackable in the good sense- you can't set it up yourself and hack it (twitter.com/_/status/438877825966555139)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: one problem with indieweb is that we don't have an end to end internet any more (twitter.com/_/status/438877989426970624)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we're not trying to reinvent DNS - we assume that works and we'll use it. Lets solve other problems first (twitter.com/_/status/438878294134759424)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the big problems are mostly UI and not plumbing - that is what holds back the indieweb. Solve UI first (twitter.com/_/status/438878426532179969)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: my whole site is set up on flat files, I don't even use a database - I don't need to remember some bizarro mysql password (twitter.com/_/status/438878620896231424)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I love that tantek and I are fetishizing different bits of the stack - I like mail, he likes files (twitter.com/_/status/438878783358369793)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: I can't trust those [email] specs because there aren't test suites for them, unlike HTTP and SSL and HTML (twitter.com/_/status/438878945900249088)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we are trying to solve SSL certs for indieweb, but it is still hard (twitter.com/_/status/438879166067650560)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: I can't trust those [email] specs because there aren't test suites for them, unlike HTTP and SSL and HTML (twitter.com/_/status/438879622663774208)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: we are trying to solve SSL certs for indieweb, but it is still hard (twitter.com/_/status/438879624857403392)
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tantek.com edited /web_hosting (+25) "/* See Also */ servers" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: we have instructions for ssl on various different hosting services: http://indiewebcamp.com/https (twitter.com/_/status/438879759536508928)
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tantek.com created /apache (+20) "r" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iboxifoo: I've been using Soveriegn which is a set of scripts to configure a VPN to host things for you (twitter.com/_/status/438880147719356417)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @iboxifoo: I like the parallel from the Homebrew Computer Club - it took a while to get things working for them (twitter.com/_/status/438880484429692928)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: we have instructions for ssl on various different hosting services: http://indiewebcamp.com/https (twitter.com/_/status/438880512476999680)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @iboxifoo: I've been using Soveriegn which is a set of scripts to configure a VPN to host things for you (twitter.com/_/status/438880517417885696)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @iboxifoo: I like the parallel from the Homebrew Computer Club - it took a while to get things working for them (twitter.com/_/status/438880518307074048)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: the original Homebrew Computing Club didn't have the knowledge sharing mechanisms we get to use easily (twitter.com/_/status/438880672900739072)
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@laurencstill RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: I can't trust those [email] specs because there aren't test suites for them, unlike HTTP and SSL and HTML (twitter.com/_/status/438880684858302464)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: what if most of us got our sustenance from McDonalds, Taco Bell, Subway - we'd lose something. We want kitchens (twitter.com/_/status/438880854266621952)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: it's good that McDonalds are serving unhealthy food, because it gives us a reason to go indie. (twitter.com/_/status/438881050409054208)
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@phoenix2life RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: what if most of us got our sustenance from McDonalds, Taco Bell, Subway - we'd lose something. … (twitter.com/_/status/438881059548463105)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: If McDonalds could actually serve a full organic paleo meal then it would be more problmeatic (twitter.com/_/status/438881276125528064)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: the original Homebrew Computing Club didn't have the knowledge sharing mechanisms we get to use easily (twitter.com/_/status/438881373135572992)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: did you know the US Postal Service was created before the revolution so they could communicate without the crown (twitter.com/_/status/438881955674071040)
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poppy oh shit
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poppy brt
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KevinMarks_ OTR for XMPP on mobile: http://www.propublica.org/article/a-buyers-guide-to-safer-communication#jabberwithotr
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@sandeepshetty #webmention implemantation in Clojure https://github.com/winks/webmenjion (twitter.com/_/status/438884843342938112)
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KevinMarks_ https://guardianproject.info/apps
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KevinMarks_ https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=info.guardianproject.otr.app.im
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/guardianproject/ChatSecureAndroid
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@kevinmarks #indieweb if you want OTR on mobile, use ChatSecure: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=info.guardianproject.otr.app.im https://github.com/guardianproject/ChatSecureAndroid (twitter.com/_/status/438885411637579776)
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@CyMadD0x RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb if you want OTR on mobile, use ChatSecure: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=info.guardianproject.otr.app.im https://github.com/guardianproject/ChatSecureAndroid (twitter.com/_/status/438885596959084544)
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@talios RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb if you want OTR on mobile, use ChatSecure: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=info.guardianproject.otr.app.im https://github.com/guardianproject/ChatSecureAndroid (twitter.com/_/status/438886109796249602)
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aaronpk wondering if we should add a note about retrying sending webmentions, in light of my server being down this evening
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aaronpk note to self: remove "homebrew website club" sign from the front door around 7pm.
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aaronpk some guy wandered in asking if there was a beer festival her
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aaronpk e
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@alipasha RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: the big problems are mostly UI and not plumbing - that is what holds back the indieweb. Solve UI first (twitter.com/_/status/438892107521347584)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb Homebrew Website Club continued (@ The Grove w/ @t) http:///login?continue=%2Fkevinmarks%2Fcheckin%2F530ebffa498ef9eca5cba690 (twitter.com/_/status/438894502577975296)
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KevinMarks Tantek, you here?
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@DeanLand RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb Homebrew Website Club continued (@ The Grove w/ @t) http:///login?continue=%2Fkevinmarks%2Fcheckin%2F530ebffa498ef9eca5cba690 (twitter.com/_/status/438900126246260736)
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KartikPrabhu hey indeweb folk! Wouldn't it be great if http://huffduffer.com used indeauth? cc: adactio
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: my irc client sometimes puts a star next to your name. Curious as to what that indicates?
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KartikPrabhu owner/moderator?
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aaronpk yeah, channel op
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KartikPrabhu cool. Yet sometimes (like now) it doesn't do that
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KartikPrabhu maybe weird client behaviour
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aaronpk yeah ithink last time my client got disconnected it didn't re-op me
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KartikPrabhu shrugs
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KartikPrabhu indieauth has spoilt me. Now i want to use it for everything!
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aaronpk tehe
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hertling doesn't take long.
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aaronpk welcome hertling!
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@aaronpk @sandeepsheety No, things didn't quite come back up properly after I restarted my server. Your webmention was... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/02/26/9/ (twitter.com/_/status/438906257986949120)
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@drale2k RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to… (twitter.com/_/status/438918739191685120)
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snarfed hey KartikPrabhu, i think i hit a bug with mf2py
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snarfed want me to file an issue against your fork? or describe it here?
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KartikPrabhu cool! issue is better since I can refer to it much more easily
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snarfed ∑ill do
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snarfed er will do
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KartikPrabhu sigma lol! How the hell did you get that!
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KartikPrabhu \W
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KartikPrabhu hmm nope
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snarfed no clue
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snarfed btw issues in your repo are off
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snarfed (i think that's the default for forks)
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KartikPrabhu will change that now
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snarfed i can file one in tommorris's, or...yeah
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snarfed either way
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KartikPrabhu er how do I enable issues?
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KartikPrabhu I expected a link/button to do that
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: found and done
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snarfed thanks!
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: though busy week writing a research paper, so can not guarantee I'll get to it soon
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snarfed np!
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snarfed not urgent
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KartikPrabhu sweet! my first issue! w00t!
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Loqi yay!
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snarfed :P congrats!
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KartikPrabhu Loqi: do happy dance!
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@ryan_callihan @aaronpk Super helpful and informative #indiewebcamp tonight. Look forward to more. (twitter.com/_/status/438928477299822592)
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tantek whoa, FB redesigned their event pages!
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@pauloppenheim "First encrypted and signed indieweb comment using Keybase.io" http://www.sandeep.io/178 — got beat to it! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/438963759738929153)
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tantek !tell aaronpk where are the wiki templates for IndieWebcamp? My friend Jay wants to try seeing if she can clean them up.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@kevinmarks #indieweb somewhat belated notes from tonight's Homebrew Website Club, featuring @t @brianbehlendorf @iboxifoo: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2014-02-26.html (twitter.com/_/status/438988711900901376)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/431212388801847296/438999689703456768 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-02-12-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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@matthewjosef RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to… (twitter.com/_/status/439064844176617472)
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@matthewjosef @artbrock “@kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: there are a lot of standards being developed outside the core standards bodies like IETF and w3c...” (twitter.com/_/status/439065616914190337)
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@gRegorLove @J0shuaW1lliams Yeah, I ran into him randomly in #indiewebcamp IRC chat. Not long after you asked me to look at some of his code. @EHLOVader (twitter.com/_/status/439069136040116224)
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@matro RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to… (twitter.com/_/status/439087591103549441)
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tommorris tantek, aaronpk: you should be able to list all wiki templates on Special:AllPages
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tantek tommorris - the templates in the *theme*
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tantek the crap with all the table markup etc.
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tommorris ah okay
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tantek and frankly, mediawiki is so busted with how that stuff works that I still have no idea where to find WTF is going wrong with pages like: http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Version
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cweiske you really broke it :)
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cweiske now I remember, I can't reset my password on that wiki
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cweiske tantek, the problem on that page is the "override entry title"
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@ShaneHudson RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @brianbehlendorf: I view the ability to have private communications between individuals as a human right - end to… (twitter.com/_/status/439093191879720960)
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cweiske extension
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cweiske which generates a strange title for that page
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tantek interesting
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cweiske haha https://github.com/microformats/mediawiki-entry-title-override
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cweiske benward 5 years ago
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Loqi rofl
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cweiske probably not compatible with the mediawiki version
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aaronpk let me see if I put the theme on github
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 30 minutes ago: where are the wiki templates for IndieWebcamp? My friend Jay wants to try seeing if she can clean them up.
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aaronpk I should just put it here https://github.com/indieweb/wiki
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Loqi agreed.
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tantek cweiske - if you find something you can patch in mediawiki-entry-title-override - please submit!
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tantek I *have* figured out the permissions to fix extensions, templates
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tantek it's just damn everything to do with the database
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aaronpk mediawiki is kind of a beast, but I haven't found anything better
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tantek (seriously, who thought it was a good idea to require ANOTHER password to access the database even after you're already sudo'd in? WTF?)
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aaronpk a lot of servers don't have a root password set for the DB, so if you are SSH'd in as root you can usually just `mysql -u root` and get in
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tantek aaronpk, I still believe something with a mediawiki front end on a git backend (dump MySQL) would be a huge improvement.
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cweiske i'd like such a thing
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aaronpk tantek: what about the mediawiki frontend do you mean? the UI?
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tantek aaronpk, the problem is with trying to run various mediawiki scripts like to reset or change pw, which then access the db, and get rejected due to some pw mismatch nonsense
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tantek aaronpk - everything above the db
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tantek simple: stop storing crap in MySQL, use git instead
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tantek it handles versions of files etc.
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aaronpk I'm not a huge fan of the skin/templating
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tantek aaronpk - but that's not the worst problem
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tantek the worst problem is the unmaintanability (and vulnerability) that MySQL brings
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aaronpk i'm sure there are a ton of git-backed wiki projects. the problem is none of them are as full-featured as mediawiki
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tantek aaronpk - right, that's why I just want to swap the back end
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tantek I don't want the frontend to show any git-ness at all
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tantek (git is unfriendly as a UI model)
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tantek push pull jerk base whatever
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aaronpk the github wikis are all git-backed
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aaronpk and you'd never know/care editing it from the web
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aaronpk and comparing versions uses the nice github UI
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aaronpk https://github.com/blog/699-making-github-more-open-git-backed-wikis
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aaronpk the code is open source, https://github.com/gollum/gollum
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aaronpk i've installed it once or twice to try it out, but never stuck because mediawiki is still more powerful
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tantek what mediawiki feature(s) make you come back to it?
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aaronpk categories, defining templates that can be used in multiple pages
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tantek really curious since I'm actively thinking about this: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-page
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aaronpk the auth plugin
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tantek so categories are just hashtags right?
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tantek (something you add that then becomes clickable to a collection of the pages with that thing)
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk but it's something that very few other wiki projects seem to do
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tantek templates you can use in multiple pages is a good point
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aaronpk oh then also the "what links here" feature for browsing content
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aaronpk and the "orphaned pages" list
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tantek huh, agreed on all but orphaned pages
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tantek how have you found that useful?
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tantek.com edited /wiki-page (+888) "/* Additional Qualities */ categories, templates, backlinks" (view diff)
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aaronpk well it shows which pages have no inbound links, which can indicate a "dead" page, or is a good way of finding pages that should be linked to from other related pages
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aaronpk but it's not my most used list by any means
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aaronpk tantek: ok I put the wiki skin here: https://github.com/indieweb/wiki
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tantek woot!
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Loqi giggles
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aaronpk but you have to install mediawiki-1.17 to use the skin. not sure how to work on the skin without running mediawiki
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bnvk !tell barnabywalters Brian said trivia night at Lebowski is happening tonight at 21:00 if you're keen
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek aaronpk - yeah, I think that's one of the discussions we had in /template
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (+14) "/* Contact info and profile links */ link more prominently to setting up web sign-in / IndieAuth, break into chunks for easier reading/skimming" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Getting_Started (+1) "/* Contact info and profile links */ rehead to purpose rather than tech" (view diff)
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KevinMarks What a lot of old ie version cruft in there
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aaronpk yeah srsly
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aaronpk this skin was made in like 2006 or something, so it makes sense
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KartikPrabhu was going to say the same about IE stuff
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tantek and it has tables for layout :(
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tantek :( :( :(
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KartikPrabhu oh my!
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk it's this: http://www.paulgu.com/wiki/Mediawiki_Skins
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-98) "trim down a bit, re-order, to hopefully make it easier to use" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, can we move the "Event Sponsors" left sidebar skyscraper into being a footer instead?
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aaronpk sure
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tantek like how the xoxo site does it
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aaronpk ah yeah
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tantek http://2013.xoxofest.com/
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tantek made some tweaks to the sidebar nav
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aaronpk that'll take me some time, will have to do that later
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tantek things like, renaming "Join IRC" to "Discuss"
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tantek because "Join IRC" is not exactly appealing to what people want to do
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aaronpk cool, that looks better
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tantek also dropped a few things
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tantek changed Sponsor to a call to action to do so (rather than a list of)
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tantek aaronpk, re: will have to do later. noted. and filed: https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/8
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aaronpk thanks
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tantek who here uses limechat vs. colloquy?
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aaronpk I use limechat on my phone, and on my computer for testing irc bots
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tantek ok
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tantek I've had pretty good luck with iOS Colloquy
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+101) "call to action, put link to join via a web browser (and less setup) first" (view diff)
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tantek working on making IRC more accessible / appealing looking
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tantek take a look, see what you think of the subtle changes: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC
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tantek.com edited /reader (+64) "/* Aaron Parecki */ add screenshot" (view diff)
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aaronpk very nice
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tantek we need to work harder at making our "discussion forum" more accessible to newbies
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aaronpk agreed
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tantek (and I mean that in an endearing way, not a demeaning way)
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tantek let's see if those small steps make any difference
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aaronpk i still think there would be a lot of value in being able to create a downloadble IRC client htat just connects to a single network+channel
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tantek for sure
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tantek config already setup
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tantek I mean that's kind of what the webchat link is!
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aaronpk yeah it is
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tantek it's a link to a "client" (webpage) that your browser "downloads" and "connects to a single network+channel) :)
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aaronpk I just wish the UI were a little nicer. all IRC clients seem to have ridiculous UI bloat
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tantek if you see more indiewebcamp-visitor people showing up, please welcome them! (and teach them /nick :) )
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aaronpk contrast with things like Hipchat where they actually care about making it look nice, and care less about the protocol it uses
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tantek aaronpk - sad about the disconnect between "making it look nice" and "open backend protocol"
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aaronpk indeed
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tantek.com edited /IRC (-7) "chat - no one cares about "freenode" in the title" (view diff)
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tantek is going to experiment with calling IRC just "chat"
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sparverius chat implies people chatting
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tantek if IRC as a protocol were invented today, it would be called OpenChat
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sparverius irc implies people sending ascii dongs to one another
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tantek sparverius - and that's what we do here :)
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tantek oh snap
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tantek but seriously "Internet Relay Chat" ? - duh of course it's on the internet. and why is "relay" important to put in the name?
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aaronpk because "Federated" wasn't a term yet
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sparverius yeah
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sparverius the servers "relay" messages
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aaronpk of course the "relay" part is the thing that gives us all the netsplits :)
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sparverius also is irc federated? i thought it was technically something else
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tantek sparverius - that's redundant. the whole internet "relays" packets/messages
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sparverius since unassociated networks dont communicate...
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aaronpk yeah not really federated, but then a lot of federated things aren't really federated
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tantek definitely not federated
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sparverius well irc relays messages from server to server
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sparverius irc's simpleness is both a source of frustration and the cause of its widespread use i think
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tantek um aaronpk: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/1969-12-31
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aaronpk hahaha
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sparverius lol
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tantek hey we missed our 3 year IRCversary ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2011-02-12
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KevinMarks I use yaaic on android (which is pretty retro)
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KevinMarks And a nice minimal chrome client, let me find it
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tantek dude seriously, aral is nitpicking about UI vs UX? https://twitter.com/aral/status/439114268408291329
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@aral @kevinmarks Although the problem is UX, not UI — a much bigger problem. +@jbruin @panzer @EvelynRusli @brianbehlendorf @t (twitter.com/_/status/439114268408291329)
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tantek getting lost in the noise of nitpicking is the problem (for devs and designers). Doesn't matter whether you call it UI, UX, or just "design". The key is focusing on it and building it. Nitpicking stuff like that is for the talkers.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: well said. Nitpicking can be done after something concrete has be done already
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tantek nitpicking is what distracts people to talking rather than building
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tantek I can't be bothered to call Aral out on that BS on Twitter so I'm just doing it here (where you guys can call me out if I'm wrong instead)
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KartikPrabhu agreed. Also happens in other circles. Like science discussions on the Web
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tantek At some point I gave up on arguments over twitter.
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tantek KartikPrabhu - happns in EVERY circle.
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tantek see also, narcissism of small differences
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KartikPrabhu lol! that is a nice term
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences
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tantek wow the intro sentence to that article is shit (cc: tommorris)
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KartikPrabhu somehow this is not a problem in face to face discussions. Something gets lost in translation to the Web
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tantek is considering a copy edit
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tantek kartikprabhu - totally a problem in f2f discussions too, but in person we see more emotional cues and sense the ridiculousness faster
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KartikPrabhu possibly...
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KartikPrabhu and yes. that is a shit sentence
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tantek and logging into Wikipedia, I get notified another deletionist has deleted a small stub page I created
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KevinMarks That was part of last night's discussion too - Brian sais how hard it is to get people to publicly change their stance
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KevinMarks But in face to face you can
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tantek seriously, the bar is too low for the deletionists
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snarfed sounds similar to "agreeing violently" or "in violent agreement." i definitely use that one a lot.
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tantek tommorris: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tantek#Speedy_deletion_nomination_of_NaCl_.28software.29
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KevinMarks I think the wiki + irc mode beats mailing list +spec draft mode
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tantek for sure
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tantek the fact that you can't easily retrieve a deleted Wikipedia article you created (or edited) to work on it on your own makes me not want to contribute new things to Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=NaCl_(software)&action=edit&redlink=1
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tantek it even says "You can also start your new article at Special:Mypage/NaCl (software)." but there's no link to go retrieve the old one and put it at the "Mypage" location so you can work on it
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tommorris tantek: am out at a bar, will usefy later
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tantek thanks tommorris - not a priority, handle whenever. appreciated.
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tommorris There are good policy reasons we don't allow non admins to restore deleted pages...
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tantek yeah, I'm sure there are worse scenarios you have to defend against. :/
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tantek still, perhaps upon deletion, a page could be by default auto-recoverable, and the deleter (presumably an admin) could flip a switch to "non-recoverable by non-admins" for those edge cases
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tantek KartikPrabhu - take another look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences
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tantek KevinMarks you too ^^^ (see previous version to see the problem I fixed) https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Narcissism_of_small_differences&diff=597414724&oldid=544865284
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KartikPrabhu tantek: much more readable though it would be good to make known that the quote by Crawley, is a quote from Freud quoting Crawley. If that makes sense
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KartikPrabhu ^^ this is referring to the now second paragraph
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tantek KartikPrabhu - thanks. Yeah I decided I didn't want to copy edit the particulars that much - that redoing the top level structure would be enough to help enough for someone else to do that.
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KartikPrabhu sure. actually editing a wiki article would be a huge time sink anyway
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tantek KartikPrabhu - it's ok, there's a <ref> for anyone that cares to figure out where the quote came from
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KartikPrabhu Is that a thing people do? :P
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tantek maybe?
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KevinMarks There's a nice meta aspect to the diffs page of that article
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KartikPrabhu haha
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tantek oh yeah, I got that irony while editing. did it anyway.
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tantek I think I learned of the concept first from KevinMarks.
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tantek maybe from one of his blog posts
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tantek oh my goodness so confused by the FB event page redesign
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KevinMarks Not sure that was me, maybe danah.
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: small differences!
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snarfed tantek: oh no! and that was our gold (silo) standard for event UIs too
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KevinMarks The form I've used before is "the arguments are so vigorous because the stakes are so low"
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snarfed oops, sorry, UX. (may aral shoot me in the head. :/ )
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tantek snarfed, clearly we must do better now
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snarfed sure!
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bret aaronpk: have you ever tried ikiwiki?
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bret It's a git based wiki
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bret !tell tantek ikiwiki is a fairly capable git based wiki
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk fairly capable?
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KevinMarks_ well that's a confusing combination: http://www.eventbrite.com/e/bain-capital-ventures-presents-the-sfbeta-open-source-startup-summit-tickets-10668153735?discount=freeasintickets
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KevinMarks_ Mitt Romney's company sponsoring an open source startup conf
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KevinMarks_ ah, this is the chrome irc client: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/circ/bebigdkelppomhhjaaianniiifjbgocn
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indiewebcamp-vis hm - did anyone test this? username gets truncated
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aaronpk ha good point
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kevinmarks.com edited /IRC (+119) "/* Quick Start */" (view diff)
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indie-visitor that's a bit more legible
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Jeena Ok, it looks like I will finally be forced to learn to code in C and C++. I just accepted a job offer by a company which makes Open Source Infotainment systems for cars. I asked what my my tasks will be and they said that I will be able to choose everything from UI stuff in Qt over Linux middleware to Linux kernel modules and even some day writing patches for the Linux kernel itself. This is kind of huge for me because I've only been working
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Jeena on web and iPhone stuff until now.
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Jeena I'm not afraid of C, I think I will be able to handle it, but C++ scares me quite frankly.
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sparverius it's not scary
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sparverius just frustrating sometimes lol
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Jeena hehe
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sparverius i do php for a living
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sparverius doing ANYTHING BUT PHP in my free time
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sparverius THAT'S scary to me
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sparverius interviewing and someone asks what i did and i have to say PHP for the last 2 years
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Jeena that would be scary to me too ^^
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Jeena I had 2 PHP job offers right now, but they basically went strait to the bin
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Jeena even if in one of them they said that if I work for them then I will be able to chose something else and rebuild it, which was kind of odd.
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Jeena but there is quite a lot of PHP work to do as it seems.
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Loqi tantek: bret left you a message 2 hours, 21 minutes ago: ikiwiki is a fairly capable git based wiki
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tantek bret - do you use it on your own site?
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sparverius actually here we make a very strong effort to adhere to good code practices and so as far as first jobs go, it's nice working in an environment where clean readable code matters
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Jeena true
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KevinMarks_ c++ can be very scary, especially as people use language features because they can, rather than if they need them
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Loqi c has 31 karma
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tantek lol
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Jeena hehe
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KevinMarks_ fair enough - C>cpp
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KevinMarks_ google's style guide for it is pretty good: http://google-styleguide.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/cppguide.xml
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sparverius lol
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KevinMarks_ you might also enjoy this guide to C style from 1998: http://www.kevinmarks.com/personality.html
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Jeena I will have to do so much reading
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Jeena at least it is short :D
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KevinMarks_ K&R is pretty short too
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@schnarfed @willnorris hope the log links on https://www.brid.gy/ were discoverable, btw. looking fwd to seeing you next weekend at @indiewebcamp! (twitter.com/_/status/439171615004188672)
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snarfed congrats on the new gig, jeena!
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Jeena thanks :)
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@pfefferle @willnorris @schnarfed we decided to move the mf2 stuff to a separate plugin because it is not part of the webmention spec. (twitter.com/_/status/439173170281861120)
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@willnorris @pfefferle @schnarfed yeah, figured that out after reading through some old issues on the webmention plugin, namely https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/pull/17 (twitter.com/_/status/439173721350103040)
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Jeena KevinMarks_ this was a funread, but do people really use goto? Even if it looks quite usable in those cases.
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sparverius goto is like
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sparverius you better have a REALLY good reason
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@willnorris @pfefferle @schnarfed we should probably add a "more indieweb plugins" section in all our README files, linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress (twitter.com/_/status/439174496914653185)
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@pfefferle @willnorris @schnarfed good idea! BTW. there is also a combined Version i am working on https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/439175212551393280)
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@willnorris @pfefferle @schnarfed ooh nice! :) heh, I like "indieweb version of jetpack". Hum should probably be stable enough to include if you want (twitter.com/_/status/439175648133664769)
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@pfefferle @willnorris @schnarfed I meant class_exists https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/blob/master/webmention.php#L12 (twitter.com/_/status/439177994608054272)
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tantek !tell pfefferle,willnorris,snarfed so who in that indieweb WP plugin thread is actually posting those tweet replies from their own site, HMMMMMM?!? I.e. so really, how good is your plugin(s)? Can it POSSE threaded replies to Twitter? #throwingdown ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed tantek, ever confrontational, for the right reasons :P
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 54 seconds ago: so who in that indieweb WP plugin thread is actually posting those tweet replies from their own site, HMMMMMM?!? I.e. so really, how good is your plugin(s)? Can it POSSE threaded replies to Twitter? #throwingdown ;)
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snarfed (shh, don't tell, but i hope to have something to demo on that front next weekend)
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tantek snarfed, nothing like a common adversary to unify folks even more strongly ;)
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aaronpk ha
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snarfed tantek, i'll make you a deal: you start posseing instagram and i'll start posseing twitter replies
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tantek OHHHHH SNAP!
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aaronpk now *that* i would like to see
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snarfed not sure who it'll be more painful for
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tantek we can't POSSE to instagram! they don't have a posting API
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tantek (we can only fake POSSE to IG)
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snarfed damn, you found me out
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tantek Which Bridgy could actually help with. Ahem. ;)
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snarfed it could help with faking?
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tantek yes it could
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tantek snarfed did you see my description of how to do fake POSSE with IG?
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snarfed maybe!
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snarfed looking again
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aaronpk is soooo close to that
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snarfed i've been working on https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/10 , which is more or less exactly this
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aaronpk if it works, I will have a service youcan use tantek
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aaronpk but it requires you implement a micropub endpoint and indieauth
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tantek snarfed, I wrote this up a while ago, and I think aaronpk is implementing it: http://indiewebcamp.com/Instagram#POSSE
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aaronpk implmenting it as a "micropub app"
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tantek I should change those to numbered steps
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tantek excuses himself
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snarfed ahhh interesting. i'd followed a few of the rabbit holes in the API section on that page, but hadn't fully appreciated the POSSE section
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Loqi I agree
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+0) "/* POSSE */ number steps for easier referring" (view diff)
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snarfed aaronpk, nice! definitely keep following that route. i'll have a complementary part soon: posseing IG comments and likes via their official API
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aaronpk perfect
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tantek snarfed, Bridgy could help with step 2, and somehow sending a micropub webmention to your server
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tantek of the fact that you posted a new photo
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snarfed got it
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aaronpk nah let me show you wnat i'm doing first
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tantek then your server would do the rest of the work
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tantek or, maybe aaronpk has a simpler implementation ;)
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KevinMarks_ jeena: you do in that kind of code - where you are allocating resources not on the stack and need to clean them up on termination
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aaronpk give me a couple more days to work on it (unless you're feeling super anxious to work on it snarfed)
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snarfed also, until this is all working, we can always posse manually!
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KevinMarks_ and using that kind of error-passing model. It's common in system code
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snarfed "inconvenient, but principled"
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tantek aaronpk, where are you storing the photo bits? the JPG for serving? your webhost? S3? Dropbox?
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tantek (that's one of the harder problems for me, vis-a-vis bandwidth limitations)
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aaronpk ah yeah, i'm planning on storing on my own server. I have like 1tb/mo bandwidth so that lasts a while
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tantek oh ok
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KevinMarks_ looks like we have been using it http://pestagram.com/tag/indieweb
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tantek yeah I need to either change my webhosting setup, or pick a CDN solution of some sort
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aaronpk S3 is great for that kind of stuff too, but i haven't gone to the trouble of setting it up yet
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KevinMarks_ hm , will that work with tags? not sure if tags in comments get promoted to the root image
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tantek they don't
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tantek or rather tags from OTHERS comments do not tag the image
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tantek but all your tags in all your comments on all your images work to "tag the image"
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tantek this is on IG
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tantek (and yes that's broken, I want to allow others to tag my images)
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