#indiewebcamp 2014-03-25

2014-03-25 UTC
#
tantek
(and yes, that legacy consumer support is why I personally still keep my /updates.atom working, despite the extra maintenance cost)
#
snarfed
prepares to beat a dead horse
#
snarfed
glad to hear you acknowledge the legacy consumer support
#
tantek
(it is however, lower fidelity than the h-feed at my home page, in an encouragement to consumers to switch)
#
tantek
snarfed - of course! that's the present state.
#
snarfed
agreed, that's really the one only reason, but it's a HUUUUUGE one
#
tantek
but legacy consumer support is a trailing indicator reason
#
tantek
hence "feeds are dying"
#
snarfed
eh. as usual, we agree on the principles, we just disagree on degree
#
tantek
at somepoint someone will just make a proxy for legacy support
#
tantek
snarfed - do we disagree on the direction? or just the velocity?
#
snarfed
oh man. if it makes everyone drop this, i'll go build that proxy *right now*
#
pauloppenheim
wouldn't it be possible to take all that facebook markup and convert to h-feed?
#
snarfed
i think we just disagree on velocity, but it's maybe a big disagreement
#
tantek
snarfed - I have a high degree of uncertainty on the velocity
#
pauloppenheim
i mean on other sites
#
snarfed
eh that's ok. velocity is subjective anyway. disagreeing is totally fine.
#
snarfed
i just want to make sure indieweb community members feel like it's ok to both publish and consume rss/atom for years to come, until they truly don't need to
#
snarfed
while still working toward the h-feed future
#
pauloppenheim
the fb:page_id stuff
#
tantek
snarfed - of course it's "ok" - it's all based on individual choice and priorities
#
snarfed
pauloppenheim: ah i see
#
tantek
it's not too hard to produce a legacy Atom feed
#
snarfed
tantek: agreed! i want to make sure we message that right, though
#
tantek
it's a huge pain to actually consume arbitrary RSS/Atom out there
#
tantek
hence the recommendation to not bother
#
snarfed
writing code, yes, but not as a user. as a user it's very easy. on the other hand, as a user it's *very hard* to consume h-feed right now.
#
tantek
it's less work to ask your friends you want to subscribe to for them to support h-feed on their home page
#
tantek
snarfed on the indieweb, with selfdogfooding there is no difference between the two people
#
snarfed
no. the vast majority of the feeds i consume are not indieweb, which means most of them will not convert to h-feed anytime soon
#
snarfed
we're not an isolated island
#
snarfed
again, i'm all for switching to h-feed, i just *also* expect to publish and consume rss/atom for a long time, while that migration happens
tahnok joined the channel
#
tantek
snarfed - I used to use Google Reader and also consume RSS and Atom feeds.
#
tantek
when they shutdown my consumption of RSS and Atom dropped to zero
#
tantek
I couldn't be bothered to setup/maintain another aggregator
#
snarfed
sure! i understand. and you're definitely not alone. but i'm not alone either. :P
#
tantek
I'm not the only one
#
tantek
who gave up when Google Reader shutdown
#
tantek
clearly we were not getting that much value out of consuming RSS and Atom
#
tantek
of course you're not alone either! plenty of people went to other feed readers
#
tantek
but I'd still bet that the overall # of people consuming RSS/Atom dropped drastically as a result of the shutdown
#
tantek
hence velocity
#
snarfed
yup, and again, we're only disagreeing on velocity and degree…but that's still a disagreement
#
snarfed
when someone like gRegor` asks about rss, i don't want our *only* response to be "rss sux! h-feed 4ever!"
#
tantek
this sounds like a great topic for Wednesday ;)
#
snarfed
i'm happy to step up as rss/atom community supporter, you're welcome to point people my way when they ask you
#
kylewm
pauloppenheim: proprietary meta-crap to microformats converter?
#
snarfed
tantek: agreed!
#
pauloppenheim
kylewm: actually, it's not proprietary anymore: http://ogp.me/
#
tantek
snarfed - is there an RSS/Atom community? I thought any sense of community died as a result of the RSS/Atom wars.
#
snarfed
no clue
#
tantek
pauloppenheim - it's still controlled by FB, thus proprietary, but openly licensed
#
pauloppenheim
of *course* there's an IWC page for it :)
#
pauloppenheim
thank you tantek
#
tantek
snarfed - let's work together to document what we know factually, and the variety of opinions, on the /feed page
#
tantek
I think it's important in particular to document differences in opinion
#
tantek
makes the wiki page far more useful
#
tantek
plus then it encourages individuals to make up their own mind, based on both the facts and the spectrum of opinions
#
tantek
but I hear what you're saying, that the page appears to reflect too narrow a set of opinions currently. let's fix that.
#
snarfed
…ah, i see. heh. finally parsed your last question. i meant, "i'm happy to step up as rss/atom supporter within the indieweb community" :P
#
kbs
would it be hitting too many hot buttons to ask if there was a page comparing rdfa with the microformats approach? :-)
#
tantek
kbs - I think you want #microformats for that ;)
#
snarfed
kbs: probably not. rss/atom tend to inspire conversation here, but rdf and semantic web mostly get crickets
#
tantek
kbs - no one* who selfdogfoods actually bothers with rdfa. selfdogfooding is an awesome inefficiency filter. *with the exception of tommorris ;)
#
pdurbin
crickets? more like hostility :)
#
tantek
kbs - anyway - there's more frequent (still not much, but more) discussion of rdfa vs microformats etc. in #microformats, so you may have more luck finding folks who want to discuss that there.
#
kbs
ah, okay - thanks for tips all (and for pointer to #microformats :-)
#
tantek
btw - a lot of the generic design of microformats2 was inspired by both microdata, and bits of rdfa1.1
#
tantek
pretty sure I've credited that in every talk I've given on microformats2
#
kbs
btw, love the indiewebcamp idea [stumbled on this via kevin mark's last TWiG appearance] but don't have much idea behind the history - I'm awash in a sea of format specs, so forgive any naive questions :)
#
tantek
kbs - I have a lot of sympathy for anyone awash in a sea of format specs - I'm sorry to hear that.
#
tantek
has been awash in a sea of format specs since 1998 :/
#
tantek
kbs - and welcome! add yourself to: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
#
pdurbin
kbs: I'm here because KevinMarks mentioned tantek and indieweb on TWiG a while ago. I'm glad he did. It's a great community.
#
kbs
tantek: thanks :-) hope to join one of your Wednesday meetings and learn more
caseorganic joined the channel
#
kbs
[pdurbin: yep - ditto.]
#
pauloppenheim
has everyone seen this yet? http://sandstorm.io/
#
gRegor`
Oops, much catch up...
#
kbs
heh, that's a clever idea. Wouldn't a user still need to be tech-savvy enough to know if a given web-app is actually only connecting to their private server?
bnvk joined the channel
#
pauloppenheim
kbs: i am not positive on the specifics, but it uses containers, so I am not sure that's possible
#
kbs
pauloppenheim: ah, interesting - thanks. [also looking through https://github.com/kentonv/sandstorm]
#
gRegor`
Ok, caught up. tantek, snarfed: Yeah, I think it's the general "tone" about RSS/Atom that concerns me. I don't view XML and h-feed as an either-or, and it honestly seems like quite a low priority indieweb area. Like, if you run a WordPress blog, you have a working feed out of the box. Encourage people to add h-feed and other microformats, of course, but the anti-RSS tone just seems unnecessary.
#
gRegor`
Re "if you don't want to put a feed on your home page - no problem, then you can make it a separate URL", tantek, that violates DRY, which is one of the main criticisms of the XML feeds.
#
pdurbin
a podcast feed will be xml, of course
#
gRegor`
I'll write down some ideas on my user page probably
#
gRegor`
try to come up with some additions for /feed or /h-feed pages.
nloadholtes joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
Standalone post pages violate DRY if that's your criterion.
#
KevinMarks
Pdurbin we should fix that too
#
gRegor`
Hm?
#
gRegor`
You mean permalink pages?
fmarier joined the channel
#
dariusdunlap
On Wordpress, there is unfortunately still much work to be done. I’ve got the indieweb plugin installed and I’m using an “approved” theme, and yet the h-entry validation on http://indiewebify.me/ still points out several missing elements on https://dunlaps.net/darius
#
gRegor`
Back a bit later. Burrito time.
#
pdurbin
KevinMarks: for now, can we have a podcast about the indieweb movement with an xml feed so my podcatcher can catch it?
#
KevinMarks
We have been doing more talks than podcasts. Which means they end up siloed on YouTube. Hmm.
#
pdurbin
I would love to be able to subscribe to them in my podcatcher. An audio version would be great.
#
KevinMarks
That's another fiddly problem, munging YouTube to audio
#
pdurbin
yeah. youtube-dl and then convert the file to mp3 or ogg
pasevin, pfenwick and tantek joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2014-03-26-homebrew-website-club (+46) "add indie event and FB POSSE copy"
(view diff)
fmarier joined the channel
#
tantek
tries out FB invitations to the POSSE copy of the event to see how Bridgy is handling invites these days.
ttepasse, kbs, snarfed, pfenwick, pasevin and basal joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
Which podcatcher do you use, pdurbin?
ttepasse joined the channel
#
pdurbin
KevinMarks: beyondpod
#
KevinMarks
Not open source
ttepasse, ubax, fmarier and kbs joined the channel
ozten joined the channel
#
Loqi
[@papanuxw5] "@snipeyhead: WordPress hosting: Don't try this at home! http://t.co/MnDVmqLpFp
#
Loqi
monoculture problems #indieweb (http://twtr.io/jV5R3qNJjH)
krendil and snarfed joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com
created /Talk:feed (+1879) "Tone and message"
(view diff)
tantek, snarfed and basal joined the channel
#
basal
KevinMarks, I really like AntennaPod, using it right now actually
#
KevinMarks
I use AntennaPod too
#
basal
coolio
snarfed, pfenwick, tantek and eschnou joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell gRegor` it's not a DRY violation if you only have one feed.html page which has your latest posts, *instead of* your home page. XML/RDF feeds are typically DRY violations because they *DUPLICATE* what's already on your home page.
#
tantek
Hey Loqi, do you have problems with gRegor` 's backtick? cc: aaronpk
#
Loqi
woot!
#
tantek
how about:
#
tantek
!tell gRegor it's not a DRY violation if you only have one feed.html page which has your latest posts, *instead of* your home page. XML/RDF feeds are typically DRY violations because they *DUPLICATE* what's already on your home page.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
but we should clarify that
Jihaisse, rtaibah, eschnou and julien51 joined the channel
#
julien51
tantek snarfed interesting discussion around RSS/Atom. I generally agree that it's a huge pain to consume (both at the developer level and the user level). We (Superfeedr) have been fighting hard to help with that while still preserving 'interoperability'. There are millions of feeds out there and a lot of different ways to consume them. Let's just not throw out the baby with the bath water! For example, one of our recent attempts is
#
julien51
https://subtome.com and I would really really love to get your feedback on that.
#
julien51
And if anyone is looking for really nice alternative to Google Reader, I'd suggest https://feedbin.me It's an "indie" solution, created by a wonderful dude who charges for his services. It's simple, fast and a generally "great" product. [they're not even a Superfeedr customer if you're wondering about a conflict of interest on my end!]
#
julien51
Also, tantek, you know saying "snarfed - is there an RSS/Atom community? I thought any sense of community died as a result of the RSS/Atom wars." is not true. You're clearly substituting your own reality at this point =)
julien51, caseorganic and melvster joined the channel
#
@tobie
According to @robinberjon, Web Intents help to deal with the NASCAR problem: http://indiewebcamp.com/NASCAR_problem #w3cpayment
(twitter.com/_/status/448381004471091200)
michielbdejong, julien51 and rtaibah joined the channel
#
@rtaibah
Own it, dogfood it, document it, open source it. Build for yourself. Humans and UX over computers & protocols. Agnostic. Have fun! #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/448388692575784960)
julien51, tobiastom, Hazaa, Sebastien-L, rtaibah, glennjones, LauraJ, friedcell and dvirsky joined the channel
#
pdurbin
KevinMarks: I recently installed AntennaPod. Maybe I'll try to switch over to it from BeyondPod.
julien51, bnvk, scor, BjornW and adactio joined the channel
#
@AxelNennker
#w3cpayment wondering whether we will see indiepay something. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/448430919318528001)
ttepasse, tantek, pasevin, CheckDavid, chloeweil, indie-visitor, julien51 and Sebastien-L joined the channel
glennjones joined the channel
#
brennannovak.com
edited /store (-25) "/* Advantages */"
(view diff)
julien51 and ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
well I now know a great place for reading material for my train ride in to work... https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
julien51 joined the channel
#
brennannovak.com
edited /store (-4) "/* Advantages */"
(view diff)
_6a68 joined the channel
#
@brennannovak
@AxelNennker interesting, I've started working on the idea of an #IndieStore for the #IndieWeb http://indiewebcamp.com/store
(twitter.com/_/status/448461097537114112)
julien51, jonnybarnes, LauraJ, _6a68 and ttepasse joined the channel
#
jonnybarnes
does anyone know of a reliable way of linking to twitter profile images? is there something like https://twitter.com/username/profile_image
#
ben_thatmustbeme
johnnybarnes. I just tried that url with my own handle, and that actually worked
#
gRegor`
!tell tantek I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting I replace my home page (currently displays one post) with a page that displays X posts? Because I don't desire to do that.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
gRegor`
!tell tantek Yeah, Loqi doesn't like my backtick apparently. Only saw this in my IRC mentions. Same for the ++ point/karma thing.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
ben_thatmustbeme
gRegor` did you have a version without the backtick and thats what Loqi is waiting to send to
#
Loqi
who, me?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yes Loqi, you stole the cookie from the cookie jar
#
gRegor`
Tantek did try sending it to non-backtick after Loqi didn't respond with the backtick. But he tried first with the backtick
#
gRegor`
The other Gregor is online, so I can't /nick to clear it.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Yeah, i saw that, I'm more just curious if Loqi ignores the backtick in certain places or if it just drops lines that have the backtick in it
#
gRegor`
I think it doesn't respond to it as a valid username.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
so when he tried to use tell without the backtick (and Loqi responded if i rememeber) it was just queuing up a message for the other nickname
#
dariusdunlap
Cool, that twitter profile_image trick. Though I notice it’s the small version of the image.
#
gRegor`
Yeah, it queued up for "Gregor"
#
gRegor`
!tell invalidnick` something
#
gRegor`
!tell invalidnick something
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
invalidnick
pokes Loqi
#
Loqi
invalidnick: gRegor` left you a message 23 seconds ago: something
#
Loqi
goes squish.
#
gRegor`
:)
#
aaronpk
I probably need to adjust the regex for matching nicks
#
ben_thatmustbeme
dariusdunlap johnnybarnes and ?size=bigger to the end of the URL
#
ben_thatmustbeme
options are original, bigger, normal, tiny
#
jonnybarnes
I'm happy with the default size, I was originally going to link directly to the pbs.twimg.com link brid.gy sends you, but that can go wrong
#
ben_thatmustbeme
all of them are fixed sizes, except original
#
jonnybarnes
it appears doing username/profile_image will always give me the latest image, so hopefully no breakages
#
gRegor`
Re: the feed discussion, I put down some thoughts on the talk page last night. Mostly because I can't always keep up with IRC regularly: http://indiewebcamp.com/Talk:feed cc tantek snarfed
#
gRegor`
So once you get backtick working, I'll switch to one of those. ;)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
s/tiny/mini/
#
Loqi
rofl
#
gRegor`
roflcopter
#
aaronpk
gRegor`: yes thanks for that. Frankly I don't see much point in continuing the rss discussion until there is a productive and practical reason to do so
#
gRegor`
I'm hoping to be productive. :) And I wanted it to be clear that it's not an either-or for me - not dissing h-feed *or* RSS/Atom. The messaging concerns me a bit is all.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
the more i look at it, the more I see how much wordpress will not suit my needs
#
gRegor`
It's really extensible, ben_thatmustbeme, but oh my goodness is the code/API a mess. I rather loathe WordPress.
bnvk_ joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
the only advantage to fighting through that mess is being able to share it back to other wordpress users
#
gRegor`
Yeah
#
gRegor`
I think when I found out about http://codex.wordpress.org/Function_Reference/wp_magic_quotes, that was my breaking point with WordPress. :)
#
gRegor`
It ignores the magic_quotes setting and always adds them. Even after magic_quotes support is dropped in PHP 5.4
#
ben_thatmustbeme
the question really is now, what do I switch to
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I want something that I can really hack on the index page since I plan to test out passing in some new Get args
#
aaronpk
maybe idno?
#
aaronpk
it's also PHP
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and has a lot pre-rolled in to it, which is very nice
#
aaronpk
and benwerd hangs out here a lot
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I'm pretty sure most of the suggestions I would get for IWC projects to work with are people that hang out in here a lot
#
aaronpk
but seriously, idno is really good
#
aaronpk
I wouldn't even recommend you work on p3k with me, cause it's nowhere near as ready as idno
#
ben_thatmustbeme
plus if it cannot start with "git clone https://github.com/...." I'm far less likely to work on it
#
dariusdunlap
just had some problems doing and indieAuth login to the wiki using Google+ — getting “invalid Credentials”. Tried logging out of all google accounts and logging in to only the main one, tried both http and https. (though I didn’t try to fuss with the rel_me settings anywhere.) I think this used to work. Problem on the Google side? App.net indieauth worked fine.
#
aaronpk
very odd, let me check it out
#
aaronpk
getting this back from google "Access Not Configured. Please use Google Developers Console to activate the API for your project."
#
aaronpk
it used to work...
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i logged in with G+ just yesterday fine
#
dunlaps.net
edited /WordPress (+73) "/* IndieAuth */ - added a link to https://indieauth.com/setup"
(view diff)
yaf and snarfed joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, is it worth while for me to create a new project instead since my host doesn't have mongoDB
#
dariusdunlap
aaronpk - I’m working on related stuff this morning, so if you need any testing, just holler.
julien51 joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk what language is p3k? I'm not really finding anything I like thus far, and if I don't find something it will probably mean ripping apart opencart again to use their basic MVC setup
#
aaronpk
it's PHP
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I'd be up for working with it, though I know you aren't sharing the code atm
#
aaronpk
it's mostly just not in a state that can really be shared, although i'm making progress on that front
#
ben_thatmustbeme
you haven't seem my co-worker's code
iangreenleaf joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Ben, if you're looking at making your own, check out the processwire.com PHP framework. I've been quite impressed with it.
#
gRegor`
In the coming years I will probably migrate my site to it.
#
aaronpk
this is what I've used for PHP projects http://aaron.pk/a4P01
#
aaronpk
p3k does not use that stack tho, cause I started p3k before I found those components
#
aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: also benwerd is going to be moving idno away from mongodb
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I'll definitely have to check it out when he does
#
ben_thatmustbeme
gRegor` thanks for the link. I like the structure of it. I think I may work with that
npdoty joined the channel
#
aaronpk
I have to say, if idno had used mysql or postgres I would have hopped on board and helped ben build it instead of making p3k
#
kylewm
aaronpk: still true that p3k is git-backed -- no traditional database?
#
kylewm
is it^
#
aaronpk
yes, although I'm about to add a database for caching and querying
#
aaronpk
but the data store will still be on disk
#
aaronpk
i probably won't even load the file contents into the DB, just use it as a way to find filenames to read from
#
ben_thatmustbeme
huh, interesting approach. Yeah, unless you are doing text searching there is no reason to put in the contents. That must make it nice and fast too.
#
kylewm
very cool, does it actually use the git metadata at all, or is that just a mechanism for storing flat files of everything?
#
aaronpk
I want to be able to query by tags, post types, etc, and maintaining flat-file indexes of those is getting hard, so that's the reason for moving the metadata into the DB
#
aaronpk
just using git as version control and a way to sync the files between multiple computers I develop on
caseorganic, glennjones, benprew and snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronpk
also I am stumped with this google auth error
#
aaronpk
this app was working at one point, and now I've gone and made new API keys and even made a new app, and it's still giving me that error
tantek joined the channel
#
Loqi
tantek: gRegor` left you a message 1 hour, 45 minutes ago: I'm not sure I understand. Are you suggesting I replace my home page (currently displays one post) with a page that displays X posts? Because I don't desire to do that.
#
Loqi
tantek: gRegor` left you a message 1 hour, 44 minutes ago: Yeah, Loqi doesn't like my backtick apparently. Only saw this in my IRC mentions. Same for the ++ point/karma thing.
#
tantek
gRegor`: no I'm not suggesting you change your home page. My point is that if your home page DOES NOT display X posts, then having a separate "posts.html" page that DOES display X posts is NOT a DRY violation.
#
tantek
(because it's not duplicating functionality)
#
gRegor`
Why isn't it? The only purpose of that separate posts.html would be for feed readers (which is what my XML feeds do already).
#
gRegor`
It's duplicating posts.
#
tantek
it's the XML feeds that are duplicating posts
#
gRegor`
Yes, I know that
#
gRegor`
And so would the posts.html
#
aaronpk
gRegor`: what if I as a person wanted to see your whole list of posts and am not using a feed reader?
#
gRegor`
I have an /archives page
#
tantek
gRegor`: a posts.html is more human friendly than any posts.xml
#
aaronpk
and I can read the full text of all your posts on the /archives page?
#
gRegor`
No
#
gRegor`
Just titles
#
tantek
right, so that's not human friendly
#
tantek
preferring XML is preferring machines over humans
#
gRegor`
Um
#
aaronpk
so I have to click through to each article to read it?
#
gRegor`
If you're browsing the archives page, yes. If you go to the home page, you see the latest post. Each post has links to previous and next.
#
aaronpk
so it sounds like you have already published all the information and links needed for me as a person or myself using a feed reader to find all your content
#
gRegor`
If you only want headlines, sure.
#
aaronpk
but you just said I can read the full articles if I click on the links on your archives page
#
tantek
sounds like a lot of work for the (human) reader
#
gRegor`
Yes, which would . . . not be in the feed reader.
#
aaronpk
but the feed reader can pre-fetch the content if it really wanted to
glennjones and kbs joined the channel
#
aaronpk
I guess my question is why are you making more work for yourself, you've already made your content and the links to it all available for both human and machine consumers
#
gRegor`
I'm not sure why anyone assumes I'm "making more work" for myself.
#
aaronpk
you seem to think you need to publish an rss/atom feed
#
bret
aaronpk: any talk of a HWC this week?
#
tantek
bret - indiewebcamp.com/events :P
#
aaronpk
bret: yep! I don't know if dietrich confirmed mozpdx tho
#
gRegor`
Yes, so that if someone who's not in the IWC niche wants to subscribe to my blog...
#
gRegor`
Same as you and tantek publish RSS/Atom, right?
#
aaronpk
i'm removing mine as soon as I accidentally break it :)
#
aaronpk
it sounds like having an h-feed to atom bridge would be useful
#
gRegor`
It's really not about preference of one over the other for me. Here is what I'm saying:
#
tantek
aaronpk - it could be yeah
#
tantek
certainly I'd be happy offloading that bandwidth to some proxy
#
aaronpk
I would use it instantly
#
bret
aaronpk: you interested in publishing an atom/rss feed based off a list of h-entries? been thinking abbout how to put that together
#
aaronpk
and then I can focus on making the h-feed better
#
tantek
bret - I think sandeepshetty already built it
#
bret
oh eyah, totally forgot! ;/
#
bret
welp
#
bret
again, lots of ways to go about this
#
snarfed
bret, aaronpk: funny, i was thinking of building the same thing just this morning
#
bret
a little reluctant to do a public gateway, sounds like a pain to maintain
#
tantek
a proxy that did both h-feed -> Atom and Atom/RSS/RDF -> h-feed would be useful
#
tantek
for legacy consumers, and indieweb readers, respectively
#
snarfed
challenge accepted
#
aaronpk
snarfed: let's talk, I have a few ideas about how to put it together
#
tantek
oh snap
#
gRegor`
DRY is one of the best arguments against XML. Yet a shortcoming of h-feed (with my current site setup) is that I would need to set up a separate HTML page, *duplicating* my RSS/Atom feed in HTML form. So the DRY argument loses its power there. Sure, if I dropped the RSS/Atom feed and just used an h-feed, that would make sense.
#
snarfed
aaronpk: sure! sounds good
#
gRegor`
So I'm all for *both* currently, and actively working towards better h-feed support.
#
tantek
gRegor`: yes - I agree with that analysis and conclusion.
#
bret
im just going to do to a feed from my main page
#
snarfed
gRegor`, tantek: fuck yeah. thank you thank you thank you. that consensus deserves a cheer (and f-bomb) in my book
#
bret
its pretty easy to put together a custom h-entry to atom feed in a few days
#
dietrich
aaronpk: we is confirmed
#
gRegor`
And the language of the /feed page makes it sound like RSS/Atom should be dropped *today*, meanwhile hardly any IWCers are actually doing that.
#
dietrich
bret: ^
#
tantek
dietrich++
#
Loqi
dietrich has 2 karma
#
bret
dietrich++
#
gRegor`
haha, snarfed :)
#
Loqi
dietrich has 3 karma
#
aaronpk
dietrich: YAY thx!
#
Loqi
giggles
#
snarfed
gRegor`: definitely. we need to update /feed, right now it kind of reflects a minority opinion. that's on my todo list, but feel free to jump in ahead of me!
#
tantek
gRegor`: yes, we should update the page to reflect both the current situ and trends more accurately. I think snarfed and I will be banging that out tomorrow night.
#
kylewm
gRegor`: snarfed: the /feed page has been toned down quite a bit, it's still problematic?
#
tantek
It feels like the kind of thing that will work better in-person interactively.
#
gRegor`
Cool, cool. Thanks for the discussion. Hope I wasn't too frustrating. :)
#
tantek
kylewm - not so much problematic, as could be better :)
#
snarfed
kylewm: oh maybe not. i've tried as hard as i could to avoid and ignore the debate altogether. (but recently failed :P)
#
snarfed
tantek: definitely
#
tantek
gRegor`: it's all good. sometimes harder to discuss contrasting approaches/opinions in text.
#
snarfed
bret, aaronpk: agreed, h-feed to rss/atom and back seems pretty straightforward. not even sure there are any meaningful design decisions to be made, just simple fetch-on-demand and transformation. at least, that's the naive first pass, which is all i'd expect to do.
#
kylewm
cool -- I did understand how someone could find it a little inflammatory a week ago, but not anymore thanks to barnaby's edits. looking forward to reading new versions :)
#
snarfed
aaronpk: out of curiosity, were you thinking something more sophisticated?
#
kylewm
snarfed: is your latests blog -> tweet evidence that bridgy publish supports picture posts now?
#
bret
snarfed: another approach, send a webmention/webhook to the gateway on updates?
#
tantek
snarfed, per Postel's law - does it make sense to produce anything other than the strictest/most valid Atom from h-feed? And then consume *any* Atom/RDF/RSS and produce the strictest h-feed?
#
snarfed
bret: maybe! but that implies the gateway has some state it would need to update. i'd just as soon avoid that.
#
snarfed
tantek: sure! of course
#
tantek
bret - sounds like PuSH-lite ;)
#
snarfed
tantek: first step is something working, then flexibility and validation
#
tantek
but yes - agreed
#
tantek
ideally the proxy shouldn't be polling our h-feeds
#
tantek
it's about time we simplified PuSH and made it work for native h-feeds
#
gRegor`
I didn't compare to its recent history. I didn't find /feed inflammatory in its current state, just a bit of concern about the tone/message. I commented last night on the talk page, which I just mostly recapped here in IRC. :)
#
snarfed
yeah. honestly, personally i would (will) probably only build the fetch-on-demand, nothing more
#
tantek
snarfed - no caching?
#
snarfed
tantek: sure, maybe, if/when i need it
#
snarfed
app engine free quota goes a long way
#
aaronpk
snarfed: I'd want it to include some useful debugging/error messages, like what I did with ownyourgram
#
snarfed
aaronpk: ah, got it
#
aaronpk
also there are multiple cases to handle, like when the h-feed doesn't actually contain article content, it could go fetc hthe articles
#
tantek
snarfed - I meant caching on the fetch side, you know, to be nicer to our indie sites ;)
#
bret
ohh fancy
#
aaronpk
and would be great if it were PuSH-enabled
rtaibah joined the channel
#
snarfed
fortunately, it's a small enough project that we could build two or more and compare, and not waste too much effort
#
tantek
aaronpk - do you have a summary of how PuSH works with h-feed?
#
aaronpk
pretty much that's just PuSH
#
aaronpk
since they expanded it to include not just XML feeds
#
snarfed
kylewm: sadly no, those were manual. on my list though! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/85 . feel free to "vote"
#
snarfed
tantek, aaronpk: right. i'm all for PuSH, but not sure whether/how a translator would need to do anything extra for it
#
bret
Andy Sylvester wants to help out too. He is pretty enthusiastic about the FLOSS reader and the IRC feed
#
aaronpk
wow that was fast
#
tantek
aaronpk - then perhaps we need a simple "How to" for this on http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub
#
bret
I should add a link to my tutoria
#
aaronpk
I am happy to write that when I get to that
#
tantek
as in "How to" do h-feed plus PuSH
#
Loqi
I agree
#
tantek
because I don't know of anyone that actually does it
#
aaronpk
but I don't yet send PuSH notifications
#
snarfed
tantek: re caching, sure. if you already serve rss/atom, though, this wouldn't increase your load much, since the number of users of h-feed readers is approximately…2? 3? :P
#
tantek
heck right now I'm the only one that claims to do PuSH on my indie web site which can't be right (there must be others) http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub#IndieWeb_Examples
#
aaronpk
I theoretically do PuSH for my atom feed
#
bret
aww crap that PubSubHubbub page needs work
#
tantek
(i.e. please add yourself if you do any PuSH from your site)
#
aaronpk
one of the issues is I don't really know if anything is consuming it
#
kylewm
tantek: theoretically me too (for atom feeds)
#
bret
aaronpk: would not accepting 3rd party cookies block the indieauth session saving?
#
aaronpk
probably yeah
#
aaronpk
wait what do you mean 3rd party
#
aaronpk
you definitely need the indiewebcamp.com cookie but that should be it
#
aaronpk
indieauth doesn't even use cookies
#
kylewm.com
edited /PubSubHubbub (+78) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
(view diff)
#
bret
aaronpk: that option in safari
#
bret
that blocks some advert cookies
#
aaronpk
not familiar with it
#
bret.io
edited /PubSubHubbub (+137) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Added my push tutorial"
(view diff)
#
snarfed
on an unrelated note, bridgy publish docs are up: https://www.brid.gy/about#publish . feedback is welcome!
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
good afternoon #indiewebcamp
#
aaronpk
hello barnabywalters!
#
barnabywalters
saw discussion of h-feed/h-entry to ATOM converter in the logs
#
barnabywalters
perhaps I have not shouted loudly enough about http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/
#
barnabywalters
which I have been using for all my feeds for months now without a hitch
#
tantek
hello barnabywalters!
#
aaronpk
well then
#
tantek
I should compare the output of your converter to my own PHP generated Atom and see what the diffs are
#
barnabywalters
added to todo list: release code for that as tiny package people can throw on their own sites
#
tantek
(queue Loqi yes-man)
#
barnabywalters
Loqi, you’re getting predictable!
#
barnabywalters
my VPS gets about 1TB of bandwidth so feel free to use it, within reason :)
#
barnabywalters
s/bandwidth/monthly bandwidth
#
Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: my VPS gets about 1TB of monthly bandwidth so feel free to use it, within reason :)
#
tantek
barnabywalters - any thoughts of supporting PuSH+h-feed?
#
barnabywalters
tantek: recently I’ve been trying to get PuSH 0.4 to work with h-feed
#
barnabywalters
as my reader and anti-spam projects both need to be able to subscribe to things
#
barnabywalters
no success so far but that’s a result of the feed reader trying to also be a programming environment. I think I need to focus it on one purpose and optimise it for that rather than trying to over generalsie
#
barnabywalters
where “being a programming language” is about as general as you can get in this case :)
#
barnabywalters
but current working consensus from julien is: subscribe to a HTML page, get pings when it changes, pings contain the content of the HTML page which you then re-parse
#
barnabywalters
which prevents the thundering herd problem
#
tantek
barnabywalters - can you write that up in a "How to" section on /PubSubHubbub ?
#
aaronpk
barnabywalters: this is different from the actual PuSH spec?
#
tantek
I'm still confused about exactly what to setup where and why, and what URL / webhook to call or register where.
#
tantek
aaronpk - can you point to where in the "new" PuSH spec it says how to do this?
#
aaronpk
tantek: and more importantly, how do you know it's working and when it breaks? cause right now I have no idea if my PuSH thing is working
#
barnabywalters
aaronpk: not really, although superfeedr has some unique features which make it easier, and reduce noise
#
tantek
I gave up
caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek
barnabywalters - right, I think the spec is underspecified on this
#
barnabywalters
yeah I’ll add a how-to section once my current “real” work-work task is done
#
snarfed
barnabywalters: thanks for pointing us to your converter? out of curiosity, does it also do the other direction, ie ss/atom to h-feed?
#
snarfed
that'd be another great way to help early adopters use h-feed readers more
#
tantek
aaronpk - presumably barnabywalters's converter could keep track of "last updated" for the feed and show that time
#
tantek
and you'd know it was working if that time reflected when your server last sent a PuSH notification
#
barnabywalters
snarfed: no, although that’s on my agenda too
#
snarfed
great!
#
barnabywalters
with existing mature tools for ATOM parsing and normalising it should be trivial to go the other way
#
snarfed
definitely
#
snarfed
my one remaining contribution is to propose a name for these converters
#
snarfed
feedzombie
#
barnabywalters
snarfed: perfect!
#
snarfed
as in, feeds are dead, and yet they're still alive :P
caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek
you could call it "feedz" for short ;)
#
barnabywalters
tantek: MY EYES
#
tantek
it could be our inside joke, everytime we're saying "feeds" we're actually saying "feedz"
#
barnabywalters
it’s compuslory to say “yo” after saying “feedz”
#
barnabywalters
that’s rule 1
#
tantek
oh damn there's a .dz ccTLD
#
barnabywalters
rule 2: it’s compulsory to assume that whenever anyone says “feeds” they’re saying “feedz”
#
tantek
snarfed, barnabywalters - which of you is going to grab that first? ;)
#
barnabywalters
and therefore a “yo” must be provided
#
barnabywalters
tantek: I don’t buy domains :)
#
tantek
sure sure, we all "rent" domains :P
#
barnabywalters
my granola addication burns my wallet enough already
#
snarfed
i'll happily buy and donate it if barnaby adminsters it
#
barnabywalters
snarfed: deal!
#
snarfed
…and i suspect he'll politely decline
#
snarfed
oh wow! ok. done!
#
tantek
now we just need a zombie artist
#
snarfed
name your registrar of choice, barnaby
#
snarfed
(and login creds :P)
#
tantek
for logos / graphics ;)
#
barnabywalters
snarfed: ADMIN/1234 of course
#
snarfed
or just go ahead and i'll reimburse you via rel-payment
#
aaronpk
what! that's the same password I have....
#
snarfed
nm that's much better
#
snarfed
"drop the 4. just 123. it's cleaner."
caseorganic and eschnou joined the channel
#
bret
there is bound to be a sucessful startup in a server hosting company that could provide an app store experience for server software
#
ben_thatmustbeme
gah, i'm still bouncing back and forth between hacking wordpress, and hacking up something new
#
barnabywalters
bret: do you (or anyone you know) have experience with control panel software or 1-click install services which do similar things?
#
barnabywalters
they might be worth documenting on /store
#
bret
other than finding cPannel anoying, not really
#
bret
ben_thatmustbeme: do what sounds more fun!
#
barnabywalters
IIRC eschnou also work(s/ed) on a service which does similar 1-click installs
#
ben_thatmustbeme
bret: sadly they both sound depressing, I don't want to start from scratch to get far enough to the point of things I want to work on, but I also don't want to try working with the mess that is WP
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: presumably someone’s already suggested looking at idno as a base to build off?
#
barnabywalters
switching locations, bbiab
#
snarfed
ben_thatmustbeme: what problems are you having with wp?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yes, I like the look of the code, but alas, sql only host and while I could dev locally, it would not be fun to not be able to launch on the hosting i've prepayed for
#
ben_thatmustbeme
snarfed, mostly I was looking to hack it pretty heavily and wp doesn't always work the intuitive way for me. I'm leaning toward just sticking with WP for now
#
snarfed
got it. good luck! plenty of both wp and non-wp users here to support either path
paulcp joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I suppose the easiest for me is a framework I've already used and could get it together fast, but I wouldn't really be learning as much
#
snarfed
eh, you'd still learn plenty about indieweb. and honestly, poking at both in parallel isn't so bad! you get something working fast, and you also get to try building from scratch.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I think i'm going to just go the MVC route i'm used to. It will take me through a lot more of learning the indie web standards, and thats really what i'm interested in
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i may be back in a few hours belaboring the decision again
kbs`, julien51, rtaibah, KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks and benprew joined the channel
eschnou, bnvk and CheckDavid joined the channel
#
@kyle_wm
@ashleymayer @KevinMarks ha! what would the #indieweb one be? For me "testing something... please disregard" :) (http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/25/1)
(twitter.com/_/status/448537206425006080)
dvirsky and indie-visitor joined the channel
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /PuSH (-59) "no need for an entire page"
(view diff)
cweiske joined the channel
#
tantek
fair enough
#
cweiske
tantek, are you still working on "show webmention results" that's listed on http://indiewebcamp.com/falcon#send_webmentions_for_posted_links ?
#
cweiske
or did you implement that already?
#
tantek
cweiske, yeah, but secondary to the personal comms stuff.
#
tantek
and events
#
tantek
so much new ground to break :)
#
tantek
the events support will likely force the implementation of webmentions etc. - because RSVPs to real world events are far more interesting to me than comments.
#
tantek
(personal preference only - obviously not reflective of anyone else's priorities)
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /PubSubHubbub (+547) "/* Testing */ moved to How To section, stubbed subscription how to with link to superfeedr docs"
(view diff)
pauloppenheim joined the channel
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /PubSubHubbub (+5) "/* Arbitrary Content */ corrected spec link to canonical"
(view diff)
nfn joined the channel
#
tantek
(note the lack of icon, name, and dangling "Article on" on that comment)
kbs, rtaibah and scor joined the channel
#
tantek
anyone here do custom CSS for specific blog posts, and if so, what technique(s) do you use?
#
tantek
I'm currently using 'style' attributes on per-post custom CSS, which is perhaps suboptimal but I'm not sure where else to start for a more "general" solution (without getting bogged down in template-reinvention-hell, that's a project for later)
scor and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: I do custom css for some posts but it is through templates
#
snarfed
tantek: sigh. that happens when the semantic-linkbacks plugin isn't installed, or i guess if it chokes for some reason
#
snarfed
looking more
#
snarfed
ah, no, it's because i sometimes hit the 10k queries/day G+ api limit, and then i can't translate the content to mf2 because i can't fetch it
#
snarfed
i've been ratcheting down the G+ poll interval for exactly that reason. it's at 30m now. maybe i need to drop it more. :/
#
snarfed
tantek: re custom css, yes, i've done both inline styles and custom class names that i style in a .css file. both are straightforward. not sure it needs any more magic or special techniques beyond those.
#
snarfed
example: https://snarfed.org/2012-12-31_atv_accident . the image caption is custom css.
npdoty and yaf joined the channel
#
tantek
snarfed, re: "it's because i sometimes hit the 10k queries/day G+ api limit," - perhaps don't send empty interaction webmentions then? So we don't get empty interactions on Bridgy consumers.
LauraJ joined the channel
#
snarfed
tantek: i definitely understand the motivation. it's not quite that easy, since i don't currently track the number of g+ calls i've made, and i don't think there's a way to ask, but i'll think about it.
#
snarfed
the ideal answer is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/15 . i'll bump up its priority
tilgovi joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
here is my extreme example of custom css: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/cybernetic :)
#
KartikPrabhu
firefox really keeps you on your toes wrt to CSS values!
#
tantek
reads snarfed's post
BjornW joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, whats wrong with having a list of custom css mods, then its just a scoped style tag
paulcp joined the channel
#
tantek
yikes! well I'm convinced to not go ATVing any time soon. Glad you're ok from all that snarfed!
#
ben_thatmustbeme
nevermind, just read up to current
#
snarfed
tantek: aww thanks!
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: I'm not quite yet a fan of using scoped style though I have high hopes it will help solve this use case.
#
KartikPrabhu
scoped styles created more problems i feel. I have setup my templates to look for a CSS file with the same title as the article and insert a <link> if it exists
#
pauloppenheim
snarfed: holy shit, that atv story involves a lot of luck, glad you survived
#
ben_thatmustbeme
kartikPrabhu, do you just make a full copy if you want to re-use a custom style then?
#
snarfed
pauloppenheim: totally. thanks!
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: whoa cybernetic! :)
#
KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmustbeme: I use a CSS preprocessor mostly so small common styles as in separate resuable files. I've not needed to reuse huge amounts of custom styles.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I'm having to force myself to remove proper markup from my new site... just to force myself to learn the hard way to insert the correct tags. I shouldn't have started with a template, I feel like i'm cheating.
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /PubSubHubbub (+103) "add myself"
(view diff)
#
tantek
snarfed, different from issue 15 - if there is no info for the activity, then perhaps don't post it? i.e. if an error is returned.
#
snarfed
tantek: well, sending a webmention is a separate request from serving the source URL, and the architecture is pretty stateless. i don't currently fetch from G+ when i send the webmention, so i don't actually know whether the later fetch will succeed or not
#
tantek
stateless is fine - perhaps don't send the webmention if the fields are null?
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
aaronpk
wow superfeedr is the only hub that supports PusH 0.4?
#
snarfed
tantek: sorry, i'm probably not being clear. during a poll, i fetch the post and its comments and likes, store new ones, and enqueue tasks to send webmentions for them. later, independently, i try to send those webmentions. (no silo api calls there.) later, independently, the recipient asks me for the mf2 translations, which i use silo api calls for. that last part is the one that failed in this case. when that happens, with this archite
#
snarfed
…which brings me back to the ideal answer, serve the mf2 from my stored data instead of silo api calls. doable, but a bit harder than it sounds, due to implementation details.
#
tantek
oh ok
#
bret
push is surprisingly unknown to many people
#
tantek
bret - because there aren't enough consumers to really make it worthwhile :/
#
tantek
it's why I dropped it from indiemark
#
tantek
we couldn't point to tangible benefits for the site owner
#
bret
at osf23c half the people didnt know about it and kept repeating 'we need pubsubthingy'
#
aaronpk
until there are more readers, there will be little reason to support PuSH
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: Would be awesome if you could confirm that the new rel parsing works as expected
#
tantek
what's osf23c?
#
aaronpk
osfw3c?
#
tantek
aaronpk, agreed, until there are more indie readers that consume PuSH
#
KartikPrabhu
hey gRegor` are we doing the HWC-Chicago?
#
tantek
superfeedr is the only big consumer right now, and it's not clear how it benefits the indie web site owner
#
aaronpk
so I suspect there will be little progress on PuSH until there is more progress made on readers
#
aaronpk
the main problem with PuSH from the publisher's side is that it's really hard to tell if it's actually working
#
aaronpk
if there's a bunch of people who are reading your realtime feed, then you may hear quicker when it breaks
#
aaronpk
but as most of us here have noticed, we don't even know if our own push feeds are working
#
bret
tantek: aaronpk ayah osfw3c sorry
#
KartikPrabhu
snarfed: just pushed a commit to mf2py so that rels are parsed better. Might be of use to you
#
snarfed
KartikPrabhu: woot, thanks!
#
tantek
bret, there was a lot of "we need XYZ" by people that don't actually build nor deploy anything.
#
tantek
without the litmus test harsh filter of selfdogfooding, people will ask for whatever marketing messages they are convinced by
#
KartikPrabhu
selfdogfood++
#
Loqi
selfdogfood has 1 karma
#
tantek
selfdogfood++
#
Loqi
selfdogfood has 2 karma
#
snarfed
selfdogfood++
#
Loqi
too much karma!
#
gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: Sure, but I can't do it this week. Maybe shoot for the next one on April 9th?
#
KartikPrabhu
that is probably the best principle here that should be more widely adopted
#
snarfed
whoa, loqi has karma flood protection
#
snarfed
aaronpk++
#
gRegor`
Presuming we're staying in sync with the other HWCmeetings
#
KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: April 9 is much better. I'll be done with a conference presentation that week and will have more time :)
#
aaronpk
heh, loqi has lots of little safeguards like that which make him particularly immune to trolling in public IRC channels
#
gRegor`
Sounds good. I'll put a stub on the wiki for us.
#
KartikPrabhu
neat! is there a good place to do this?
#
gRegor`
Since it will likely just be the two of us this time, we can pick a convenient coffee shop.
#
gRegor`
I'm in North Center and work from home, so I'm pretty flexible. I could meet somewhere downtown if that works best.
#
cweiske
I've got a first version of linkback result visualisation running on stapibas
#
cweiske
kylewm, aaronpk
#
cweiske
tahnok,
#
cweiske
tantek,
#
gRegor`
Hehe
#
KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: since I'm on the south-side maybe downtown is the best bet
paulcp_ joined the channel
#
tantek
cweiske - whoa - is that occuring on hover?
#
aaronpk
cweiske: whoa that's neat!
#
tantek
that's. amazing.
#
cweiske
it's a bookmarklet that loads linkback stats from the server via javascript
#
cweiske
adds green/red/grey/yellow icons after the links
#
cweiske
and gives you info via hover
#
aaronpk
that is not at all like how I imagined doing it, but that is awesome!
#
kbs
random question - has any 'de-facto format' to embed pgp keys in a h-card (or (hcard I guess) taken root? Right now it seems a bit all over the place.
#
kbs
ah, no - thank you for the pointer
#
gRegor`
I don't see a dedicated wiki page for Homebrew Website Club, just individual events. Worth adding one?
#
gRegor`
I was going to point people to it to explain what it is and maybe get interest.
#
aaronpk
gRegor`: we've just been using /events or the latest event page when linking people to it
#
kbs
aaronpk and tantek - perfect, thanks much
#
tantek
gRegor`: feel free to create one - so far we've been using the newsletter vol 1 as an explanation
#
cweiske
aaronpk, I once talked to you about accepting webmention via "202 accepted" if they get processed asynchronously, and wished there was a way I would get notified about the processing result
#
tantek
webhook?
#
tantek
(as part of the 202 return)
#
cweiske
the UI I have now is a way to actually display that result, and the waiting phase
#
aaronpk
I was thinking about that
#
tantek
the the receiver of the 202 return could call the webhook to register a callback for completion
#
aaronpk
the newest webmention doc actually says the response should return a URL that has information about the status
#
aaronpk
we should probably use PuSH for this...
snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi
yea!
#
cweiske
oh, I didn't read the webmention spec update
#
aaronpk
it's only vaguely agreed upon
#
aaronpk
actually I don't like the way it currently is worded
#
aaronpk
it should really return a Link header rather than a URL in the http body
#
aaronpk
rel="webmention_status"
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: re custom styles: do you think custom styles and scripts for a post should be syndicate-able, i.e. put inside the h-entry so others can consume it if they want?
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu - not sure. Going to need more indie reader experience to answer that.
#
aaronpk
my instinct is no, but it will be determined by the reader software in the wild
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
yeah. fair enough. wait for problem before solving it :)
#
kbs
aaronpk: the rel="pgpkey" approach seems unrelated to the hcard/key microformat approach - is that about right?
#
tantek
kbs - what's strange is rel="key" makes more sense
#
tantek
because the specific content-type of the key should come from HTTP
#
tantek
or in an advisory role, from the "type" attribute of <a>
#
tantek
kbs - it depends on whether you include the ASCII hardened key inline in your h-card or if you keep that in a separate file
#
tantek
that's a publishing choice you make independently of any card format
#
kbs
Sounds logical enough - so is the thinking that the hcard class="key" be used for inline keys, and the generic <a rel="key" be used for links to keys?
#
tantek
kbs - that seems to be the pair of patterns emerging
#
tantek
though for h-card, class="p-key" for the inline data
#
tantek
you could do both rel="key" class="u-key" on a URL to a key
#
tantek
that might work too
#
kbs
*nod* gotcha - thanks much for the clarifications :-)
kylewm joined the channel
#
tantek
the assumption being that any consumer of that key, if it noticed it was a URL, it would go fetch it for the actual key bits
bnvk and friedcell joined the channel
#
@tabatkins
Aligns with the #indieweb ideals really well, I think. http://sandstorm.io/
(twitter.com/_/status/448570090036813824)
#
@ShaneHudson
RT @tabatkins: Aligns with the #indieweb ideals really well, I think. http://sandstorm.io/
(twitter.com/_/status/448570722626334720)
#
gregorlove.com
created /Homebrew_Website_Club (+1212) "Dedicated HWC page"
(view diff)
npdoty joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
gregor` nicely done
#
@gRegorLove
Working on the first Chicago Homebrew Website Club meeting for April 9th. http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club Let me know if you're interested. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/448571486962323456)
snarfed and kylewm joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+146) "/* Meetings */ add more organizers, link events"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+0) "see also at bottom"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
this seems like a good use of mediawiki categories
#
tantek
gregorlove - awesome!
#
gRegor`
woot!
#
@nicktabick
RT @gRegorLove: Working on the first Chicago Homebrew Website Club meeting for April 9th. http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club Let me know if you're inte…
(twitter.com/_/status/448572375726960640)
snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek
does anyone here have the AIM app installed on their iPhone/iPod/iPad or Android?
#
cweiske
AIM. I used that in the nineties
#
gRegor`
Hehe
#
gRegor`
I don't have the apps, but I am connected.
#
gRegor`
I actually got set up using bitlbee today so I can use AIM via IRC.
kylewm joined the channel
#
aaronpk
I was looking at bitlbee so I can hipchat through IRC
#
gRegor`
I'm using their server instead of my own install. So far it's worked fine. My AIM chat traffic is really low though. :)
#
cweiske
hipchat is xmpp
#
gRegor`
bitlbee supports xmpp
#
aaronpk
that's why that works
#
tantek
but does it support the aim: URL scheme?
#
tantek
so you can click/tap aim: links and have it work?
#
tantek
so yeah, specifically, on your iPhone/iPod/iPad or Android?
#
kartikprabhu.com
uploaded /File:silo-urls.jpg "why you shouldn't share silo-short-urls!"
#
@jcDesig
Sounds cool but prolly never be heard of again: RT @tabatkins: Aligns with the #indieweb ideals really well, I think. http://sandstorm.io/
(twitter.com/_/status/448574523760455680)
#
tantek
whoa - feedly outage image
_6a68 joined the channel
#
tantek
what is feedly?
#
tantek
oh hey we have a page
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: feedly is a feed reader
hadleybeeman joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /feedly (+188) "add another down message"
(view diff)
Loqi joined the channel
#
tantek
buf if anyone here thinks Sandstorm is worthy of documenting, feel free to start /Sandstorm stub article!
caseorganic and kbs joined the channel
#
bnvk
not sure if it is or not yet, seems like a knowledgeable ex-googler, I'm just interested in connecting as he might like what we are doing
#
aaronpk
being an ex-googler is becoming less and less impressive, sorry
#
tantek
bnvk - go forth!
#
tantek
aaronpk - ex-googler dilution?
#
aaronpk
seems like everyone's an ex-googler these days
#
tantek
ex-googler is the new ex-microsofty?
#
bnvk
hehe
#
cweiske
"I declined google's offer" is the next ex-googler
#
tantek.com
edited /Facebook (+281) "criticism Hyperlink Fear Interstitial"
(view diff)
#
Loqi
cweiske has 3 karma
#
cweiske
.. I'm a next ex-googler :)
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: any good place on the wiki that documents silo url redirect fails?
LauraJ joined the channel
#
cweiske
you can try a live-demo of the linkback status popups: visit http://cweiske.de/stapibas/ and add the bookmarklet to your bookmarks. then visit http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/bdrem.htm and activate the bookmarklet.
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: maybe on /silos ?
#
kylewm
cweiske: I get a blank page with "[object HTMLScriptElement]" ... should it work on Firefox?
#
cweiske
err. only tried it with chromium
#
kylewm
cweiske: maybe I did something weird with the bookmark... it works if I paste the script into the console
#
kylewm
that's really awesome
#
cweiske
I just tried it here with Firefox, and it is broken, too
#
kylewm
very cool idea showing the status inline with the links
#
tantek.com
edited /silo (+662) "re-order a bit add Linkwrapping section"
(view diff)
#
cweiske
ah. it works in firefox when adding a ;void(0)
#
cweiske
at then end
#
tantek
alright, sounds like I'm asking in the wrong crowd for mobile AIM usage ;)
#
tantek
bret - you installed it though right?
#
cweiske
ok, firefox works now - kylewm could you try by re-creating the bookmarklet in firefox?
#
cweiske
s/re-creating/re-adding/
#
Loqi
cweiske meant to say: ok, firefox works now - kylewm could you try by re-adding the bookmarklet in firefox?
#
kylewm
cweiske: confirmed, it works now
#
cweiske
cool. mission accomplished for today
fmarier joined the channel
#
aaronpk
congrats cweiske, that's awesome
#
tantek
nicely done!
#
cweiske.de
edited /projects (-25) "/* stapibas */ link to stapibas page"
(view diff)
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
cweiske.de
uploaded /File:stapibas_linkback_info.png "screenshot of a [stapibas] linkback info popup"
#
kartikprabhu.com
edited /silo (+81) "/* Linkwrapping */"
(view diff)
LauraJ joined the channel
#
cweiske.de
created /stapibas (+694) "Created page with "Standalone pingback server written in PHP, storing data in MySQL. == Features == * Receive webmentions and pingbacks * Send out webmentions/pingbacks to each link in an Atom f...""
(view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
is looking at gTLDs.
#
KartikPrabhu
did they really make a .clothing and .plumbing?!
paulcp joined the channel
friedcell joined the channel
#
tantek
aaronpk - yeah, that's been on my personal to-do list for quite some time :/
#
aaronpk
yeah :(
#
@jjmajava
.@spongefile Events is pretty much the killer app in FB. Yet it's completely overlooked by the competition. Are you hearing this #indieweb?
(twitter.com/_/status/448589999890780160)
#
aaronpk
oops I forgot to mention the other guy
#
aaronpk
my interface doesn't autofill the same way twitter does :(
caseorganic joined the channel
#
@jjmajava
@aaronpk I'm so clicking the Like button rigt now! I mean, er... Good job! #indiewb #ftw
(twitter.com/_/status/448590905294204928)
KevinMarks joined the channel
krendil joined the channel
#
pauloppenheim
tantek: sandstorm is not necessarily indieweb related, actually sounds more like a Docker competitor. Also the author is not merely ex-google, he made protocol buffers and cap'n proto
#
tantek
pauloppenheim: the marketing copy on the home page makes it sound like it is indieweb related
#
pauloppenheim
tantek: i haven't dug too far into the code, but it seems like a weird way to go about doing what the site describes. Then again I might not be the best person to evaluate that.
#
kylewm
I find it really disconcerting how the sandstorm.io animation stops abruptly
#
pauloppenheim
tantek: yeah, i think that's where the intended audience is eventually, but right now the project seems to requre understanding cgroups and chroot
#
aaronpk
kylewm: meeee tooooo
#
pauloppenheim
which... doesn't seem very widely accessible
#
pauloppenheim
i mean hey! i like where this is going!
#
pauloppenheim
but my housemate is writing an operating system to do something similar, and has been working on it for a few years now, so there are likely traps in there that are as yet unseen
#
pauloppenheim
containers are definitely the way to go though, so I wish sandstorm some success
#
KevinMarks
Javascript can't support tweet ids anyway
#
KevinMarks
(as integers)
#
pauloppenheim
tantek: however, sandstorm might fit your "backend engineer tries to do everything" archetype
#
aaronpk
it's still possible to convert from a large decimal integer to newbase60 without needing to handle >32 bit numbers
iangreenleaf and melvster joined the channel
#
KevinMarks
Well, python just goes "we're going to need a bigger int" and copes, but JS converts to float and rounds off
#
KevinMarks
You can do it but have to keep the twitter id as a string
#
tantek
right
#
tantek
"cgroups and chroot" ?!?
#
tantek
pauloppenheim: goodness. do we need to document the "backend engineer tries to do everything" archetype?
#
aaronpk
php has bcmath functions for large integers, but that obvs won't work in javascript
#
pauloppenheim
tantek: possibly.
#
pauloppenheim
tantek: I think the hubris comes from living in a world like this: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2014/01/01/Software-in-2014
#
dariusdunlap
Well, my entry page at https://dunlaps.net now validates for html5. I think making Wordpress do the same is a fool’s errand.
#
bret
tantek: i installed it yeah
tilgovi and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
pauloppenheim
oh, tim bray left google?
gRegor` joined the channel
#
dariusdunlap
Hmmm. CSS still gets a lot of validation errors, but that seems to be in bootstrap.min.css — not my fight.
#
dariusdunlap
I’m a little bored with this… maybe I should fire up Xcode. (ha ha)
#
tantek
bret - when you click the aim: link on tantek.com - does it automatically open our previous AIM conversation?
#
pauloppenheim
dariusdunlap: hey man, you can test that "patches accepted" phrase everyone always throws around!
#
tantek
and activate/select the message entry field (thus showing keyboard etc.)?
paulcp joined the channel
#
dariusdunlap
You mean wrt the bootstrap.min.css? heh heh. Seriously, I’m wondering if I have time to stick my head in my ADN Python code to see if I can figure out how to make brid.gy talk to app.net.
friedcell, _6a68 and caseorganic joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
basically DJango refuses to filter by month! Have been stuck on this wrt making short urls
tilgovi joined the channel