#indiewebcamp 2014-04-11

2014-04-11 UTC
kbs, warden__, scor and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
gRegor`
That Holly Herndon music is great, kylewm. I'm not familiar with her.
#
kylewm
whoa just realized evan martin from the meetup last night wrote ninja! i'm a little starstruck retroactively :)
netweb joined the channel
#
@Indiewebhost
Reseller Hosting Gratis WHMCS cuma Rp.860rb, klik http://t.co/EfDeCguVZI, info: SMS:081910012342 BBM: 74D4CBBE
(twitter.com/_/status/454423657486364672)
#
bret
indieweb hosting?
ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
kylewm
indieweb dot biz kinda seems like an oxymoron
#
gRegor`
Hey ben
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hahaha, i have webmentions parsing correctly
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tomorrow all i need to do is fix the views to show them
caseorganic, netweb and j12t joined the channel
#
GWG
Hello
dybskiy joined the channel
#
GWG
How are you, KartikPrabhu?
#
KartikPrabhu
how is your indiewebification going?
#
KartikPrabhu
I am doing well...
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I haven't gotten to replies yet
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: yeah that is a particularly tricky... I am in the middle of solving that for my website too
#
GWG
What features does your site have?
#
KartikPrabhu
it does mf2 stuff... sends webmentions and sort of naively receives mentions but that is broken for sure
#
GWG
I'm using the Wordpress plugin. Which means it works for what it does.
#
GWG
But I haven't gotten to customization
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: that is great! get t wroking then tweak...
#
KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmustbeme: hey!
#
KartikPrabhu
i also post POSSE to Twitter using bridgy
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i'm actually pretty close with receiving webmentions fully
#
ben_thatmustbeme
but have yet to deal with sending
#
GWG
Well, what do you do with them once received?
#
KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmustbeme: what do you use?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
since I don't even have any UI to manage content yet
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I'm using mf2-php and some other scripts, been writing my own system
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: i am using vrypan's webmentiontools for now but writing some custom code that I'll push to bear's ronkyuu package (which is what I use for sending)
#
GWG
But what do you want to do? You are speaking from a technical point of view. Not a functionality point of view.
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: oh yeah sorry... I get webmentions and check the source page has indeed linked to mine, then parse it to get properties like author, time and a snippet and put it in my database.
#
KartikPrabhu
what I don't do is parse it using mf2
#
KartikPrabhu
i should be getting mf2 properties... and I also want to put them in files instead of database which is what I am working on now
#
ben_thatmustbeme
goodnight guys
#
Loqi
sweet dreams
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I think the formatting of what you do with the data could use some work. But mine could too
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: exactly! and I should be getting the correct data too using mf2... I am being very naive about how to get the data which is the problem :)
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: what is your site link? ... just curious
#
GWG
I'm trying to get the formatting on what I have looking good, then I can add more data
#
GWG
Didn't I send it to you?
gRegor` joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+16) "/* Meetings */"
(view diff)
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: This is something I'd like to look at more
#
GWG
This is based on the Genesis framework.
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: yes. I like the facepile UI for likes/reposts
#
GWG
I want to see about adapting that
#
kylewm.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+1) "/* History */ typo"
(view diff)
#
GWG
I am wondering how I can adapt it
#
GWG
I don't like the formatting the current plugins use.
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Events (+736) "/* 2014 */ Added 4/9 HWC"
(view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: What do you not like about the formatting?
scor joined the channel
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Events (-142) "/* Upcoming */ move 4/23 HWC up"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /Events (+0) "/* Upcoming */"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /challenges (+81) "/* Citations to process */"
(view diff)
#
kylewm
So I've got a hacked together proof of concept together for original-post-discovery without backlinks... looks for rel="original-post-discovery" to in the author's root url
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: My idea was that you send to brigy two things 1. url of original post 2. url of syndicated post and then bridgy can verify that those came from the same person and add them to its table of connected posts
#
KartikPrabhu
in addition bridgy could verify that original-post has syndicated-post as a u-syndication
#
KartikPrabhu
my selfish use-case is that I could import all of my pre-POSSE twitter back to my site and still get activity backfed
#
kylewm
yeah that way would definitely work too
#
KartikPrabhu
this way bridgy would have less work to do :)
#
kylewm
do you think there are advantages to sending bridgy the original->syndicated data over it just finding the query endpoint?
#
KartikPrabhu
what do you mean?
#
KartikPrabhu
as in just send syndicated-url?
#
kylewm
so the way i'm doing it, my site has a <link rel="original-post-discovery"> endpoint
#
kylewm
and bridgy looks at the author's url, grabs it and pulls out that endpoint
#
kylewm
and then it constructs a 'target' as endpoint?syndication=tweeturl
#
KartikPrabhu
but afaik bridgy saves the "connection" between originalpost and syndicated-post and polls them
#
kylewm
hmm, could you explain that a little more, i'm not understanding
#
KartikPrabhu
I mean... it seems to me that currently bridgy scans the tweet-url and finds the original-url and saves the fact that they are related. Then it polls the tweet-url for activity and sends it to the original-url as mentions
#
kylewm
my understanding is the alternatives are 1. store the orig->syndicated mapping in bridgy 2. store the mapping on each site and bridgy queries them when it needs it
#
kylewm
ah, no it doesn't save that they're related
#
KartikPrabhu
I thought it already does 1.
#
KartikPrabhu
oh! ok... i might have to re-think how to make it less work for bridgy then!
#
kylewm
it just finds the tweet and its responses, and sends notifications to urls that it finds in the original link
#
kylewm
original pos*
#
kylewm
post*
#
KartikPrabhu
my whole point is that bridgy should do minimal work since we don't want bridgy to become another "silo"
#
kylewm
total agreement
#
KartikPrabhu
this is an interesting issue... must think more :)
#
kylewm
really glad to get others' input
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: we should document this brainstorming somewhere so I/you/others can refer to it and make suggestions :)
#
kylewm
it's not an itch for snarfed particularly
#
kylewm
yes I will document my POC on the github issue
#
KartikPrabhu
ok cool! I will add to that too... when I get more time
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: already an open tab in my FF
#
kylewm
thanks KartikPrabhu! heading to bed, good night all
#
Loqi
ciao
#
KartikPrabhu
damn it Loqi!
#
Loqi
yeah!
tantek joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
Loqi you should help me with physics too!
dybskiy joined the channel
#
gRegor`
For the logs:
#
gRegor`
Hi, Lynne. You raise some great points in this post. I am a self-proclaimed “indieweb enthusiast.” I have not been around the group too long, but one of the things I really like is that there seems to be a strong desire to make things easier and more accessible for everyone, not just technical people. There’s a long way to go, but I see small steps and am excited by them. http://brid.gy is..
#
gRegor`
.
#
gRegor`
...one example, allowing people to pull back comments and likes to their own site pretty easily.
#
gRegor`
There is at least one WordPress theme, SemPress, that supports microformats2 out of the box. Of course, the barrier for indieweb to overcome there is that most people won’t want to switch their current theme. There is also a WordPress plugin for sending/receiving webmentions. Andy Sylvester made a good video about installing and using it: http://andysylvester.com/2014/01/27/working-with-webmenti
#
gRegor`
on
#
gRegor`
-video/
#
gRegor`
I’m definitely interested in helping bridge the knowledge gap, though, and helping people get on board easier. I will try to distill some of this on the IndieWebCamp wiki and might put some more attention towards a set of first steps for WordPress users. Thanks for the post drawing attention to this topic!
#
KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: I was half-tempted to point out that people are working on the "make easier" problem. The wording of that article is too harsh IMO
#
gRegor`
Perhaps. I got the impression it wasn't in bad faith, though. I thought a positive comment could help.
#
gRegor`
I honestly had not thought of indiewebify.me as an entry point to indieweb, like it seems it was for her.
#
KartikPrabhu
it is an entry-point if you are willing to explore the tech at the moment. But for Gen2/3 people it isn't and it is not intended to be either
#
gRegor`
I think the bits about competing with Apple and Google was... well, wrong angle. It's a grassroots thing, not really an attempt to "take on" big companies
#
gRegor`
Agreed
#
gRegor`
(Actually, what I guess i mean is I forgot about indiewebify.me altogether :)
#
gRegor`
I've used it twice.
#
GWG
I work with Wordpress. There could be more development in that area.
#
gRegor`
Among the many indieweb rabbit trails that interest me, making things easier is definitely one of them. I was thinking this afternoon that maybe I should make the WordPress official themes in mf2 friendly versions
#
GWG
gRegor`: You mean Twentyfourteen, etc?
#
gRegor`
Yeah
#
GWG
I've done a child theme for twenty fourteen that I've been adding markup to.
#
gRegor`
Do you run WordPress on your own site currently?
#
gRegor`
Nice
#
gRegor`
You should definitely release it when it's ready. :)
#
GWG
Twenty-fourteen has a lot good and bad features
LauraJ joined the channel
#
GWG
gRegor`: Do you have a background in Wordpress theming?
#
gRegor`
I know WordPress pretty well from implementing it on several client sites. I typically do more custom plugin development on those than theming - our designers do most of that - but they also don't know PHP well at all, so I often have to go in to clean stuff up and guide them in better practices.
#
GWG
I'm a poor designer, and a poor PHP person.
#
gRegor`
I've not set up/released any themes of my own though
#
GWG
Which is why I don't think I should release my horrible code.
#
gRegor`
Ah, well I'll gladly help in my spare time.
#
GWG
Well, I'm overloading some of the base functions
#
gRegor`
Do you develop in another language like PHP, or just picking it up?
#
gRegor`
er, Python
#
GWG
I'm not a programmer by trade. I've dabbled in languages a bit.
#
gRegor`
Cool
#
GWG
But, are you familiar with Post Formats?
#
gRegor`
I was just about to say, I've not dabbled much with custom post formats yet, but that seems like the way to go for marking up statuses, likes, etc.
#
GWG
That is what I've looking at.
#
gRegor`
I'll need to look at twenty-fourteen more in-depth
#
GWG
I've used Wordpress, but never that feature.
#
GWG
aside - Typically styled without a title. Similar to a Facebook note update.
#
GWG
gallery - A gallery of images. Post will likely contain a gallery shortcode and will have image attachments.
#
GWG
link - A link to another site. Themes may wish to use the first <a href=””> tag in the post content as the external link for that post. An alternative approach could be if the post consists only of a URL, then that will be the URL and the title (post_title) will be the name attached to the anchor for it.
#
GWG
image - A single image. The first <img /> tag in the post could be considered the image. Alternatively, if the post consists only of a URL, that will be the image URL and the title of the post (post_title) will be the title attribute for the image.
#
GWG
quote - A quotation. Probably will contain a blockquote holding the quote content. Alternatively, the quote may be just the content, with the source/author being the title.
#
GWG
status - A short status update, similar to a Twitter status update.
#
GWG
video - A single video. The first <video /> tag or object/embed in the post content could be considered the video. Alternatively, if the post consists only of a URL, that will be the video URL. May also contain the video as an attachment to the post, if video support is enabled on the blog (like via a plugin).
#
GWG
audio - An audio file. Could be used for Podcasting.
#
GWG
chat - A chat transcript
#
GWG
That is from their wiki
#
gRegor`
Are those built in to the core, or part of the theme, do you know?
#
GWG
They have to be supported in the theme, but they are built into the core as options
#
gRegor`
(Guess I can just open the wiki instead of being lazy :)
#
GWG
But, I'm using link, image, status, and video
#
GWG
I'm thinking of building Replies into Aside
#
gRegor`
These don't look like they'd be too hard to implement.
#
GWG
No.
#
GWG
And mapping the indieweb concepts to them works as an option.
#
gRegor`
aside seems an odd name for what it is, but that could work for replies.
#
gRegor`
"quote" seems like a good one for replies, but that would also restrict you from posting your own quote types (instead of replies)
#
gRegor`
At least without some custom field / plugin interaction.
caseorganic joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Alright, time for sleep. I'll look into this more in the coming days GWG
#
GWG
Well, the idea is to allow theme format changes
#
GWG
I'll be around.
#
GWG
I have a lot of thoughts I'm testing.
#
GWG
I wouldn't mind trying to help make it easier.
cweiske, pfenwick, caseorganic, pfenwick1, krendil, Sebastien-L, tobiastom, friedcell, melvster, dybskiy, arcatan, ttepasse, glennjones and barnabywalters joined the channel
#
@rodw
RT @hollyherndon: Really into this @indiewebcamp POSSE idea. Super simple and feasible, host your own content and syndicate out https://t.c…
(twitter.com/_/status/454558818304004096)
LauraJ, caseorganic, scor, barnabywalters, melvster, saurik_, walkah_ and ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hey guys. Not that i'm honestly expecting anyone to be up right now
#
cweiske
there are european people in here
#
cweiske
it's 15:24 for me
#
ben_thatmustbeme
but you are rare in here
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i believe caseorganic was in Japan for a time too
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Mostly its all West Coast USA though
#
cweiske
there are quite some EU people
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I apologize, I just wish there were more of you :)
chloeweil, barnabywalters and melvster joined the channel
#
GWG
I'm east coast US
gRegor` joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yay east coasters
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I really need to get some design skills. I can do plenty but i cannot make things look good.
#
cweiske
bootstrap could be your friend
#
ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i've tried that, still doesn't help me
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I just start with other's templates.
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: http://aralbalkan.com/notes/design-is-not-veneer/ might be useful reading regarding bootstrap
#
barnabywalters
a lot of it is a long rant, but the “so what’s a developer to do” is of practical use
warden joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
YESSS, likes and comments are working, though comments are not fully cleaned up
#
cweiske
ben_thatmustbeme, can we see that somewhere?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and it seems mf2-php will return relative URLs for author photos and not others
#
ben_thatmustbeme
ben.thatmustbe.me
#
bnvk
cweiske: me and barnabywalters are in Reykjavik :)
#
ben_thatmustbeme
oops, i never configured recent comments
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: whether or not relative URLs are made absolute depends on how the URL is parsed
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i am using mf2-php and php-comments
#
barnabywalters
so <span class=“p-url”>/notes/1000</span> will give url: “/notes/1000” whereas <a class=“u-url” href=“/notes/1000”> will try to resolve it and give you an absolute URL
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: prefixes tell parsers how to parse particular values
#
ben_thatmustbeme
thats why your image isn't showing up barnabywalters, the likes returned absolute urls for author photo, but the reply returned it as a relative
#
cweiske
in case someone wants to make screenshots of websites - my self-hosted website screenshot service is working now: http://phancap.cweiske.de/phancap.phar/ and example: http://phancap.cweiske.de/phancap.phar/get.php?url=http://indiewebcamp.com
snarfed joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
its just returning the src field from the img
#
ben_thatmustbeme
http://kylewm.com/like/2014/04/08/1 was a like, the lib returns the absolute url since the u-photo has src='http://....'
rektide joined the channel
melvster joined the channel
#
kylewm
ben_thatmustbeme: the mf2 parsers should resolve that for you
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: you’re probably not giving it a base URL then, because parsing that page with pin13 produces absolute URLs on my author h-card: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2Fnotes%2F4VUFr4%2F
#
barnabywalters
$mf = Mf2\parse($html, $url);
pfenwick joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
you are correct, i am not
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: no worries, it’s a bit of a usability problem with php-mf2
#
ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, now i just need to rip out the base_url
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: what do you mean?
#
barnabywalters
you should give Mf2\parse the HTML you want to parse, and the URL where you found it
#
Loqi
definitely
#
ben_thatmustbeme
so i'd have to give it 'http://waterpigs.co.uk' but the full url right?
#
barnabywalters
that way, document-relative URLs are resolved correctly
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: you just pass it the URL where you got the HTML from
#
barnabywalters
no modifications or processing
#
ben_thatmustbeme
oh, excellent, thats easy
#
ben_thatmustbeme
does it resolve redirects too?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
given that someone could have given me a shortlink
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: no, it doesn’t resolve redirects
#
barnabywalters
it doesn’t touch the network at all (yet)
carlo_au joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
so, I use a library called Guzzle as an HTTP client
#
barnabywalters
the Response objects have a getEffectiveUrl() method, which returns the final step in any redirect chains
#
barnabywalters
that’s what I pass into Mf2\parse()
#
ben_thatmustbeme
curl_setopt($c, CURLOPT_FOLLOWLOCATION, 1);
#
ben_thatmustbeme
$real_source_url = curl_getinfo($c, CURLINFO_EFFECTIVE_URL);
#
barnabywalters
ben_thatmustbeme: that’s the one
kbs joined the channel
#
kbs
barnabywalters: finally got around to doing the fingerprint-tweet-via-syndication a couple days back - you're the [only :)] test case - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/lindy/media/img/tweet_key.png [and code etc over at https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/lindy/lindy.html]
#
kbs
that little card now shows up at the end of the profile crawling
#
kbs
together with confirmations, etc
#
barnabywalters
kbs: awesome! so it’s searching for rel-syndication and verifying the syndicated copy?
#
kbs
yep!
paulcp joined the channel
#
kbs
first pass is all the rel=me validation
#
kbs
second pass looks for fingerprints within validated sites
#
kbs
chasing through rel-syndicatino links as well
#
barnabywalters
kbs: amazing work! definately add that to the pgp wiki page
#
barnabywalters
does it have a more permananent home URL than dropbox?
#
kbs
haha :)
#
kbs
it's still very much experimental
#
kbs
been hesitant to put it into any sort of permanent record
#
kbs
I'm kinda hoping at the moment to tinker with some private messaging bits before [one hopes] circling back to clean up and make everything less hacky
#
kbs
is this - private messaging - something you (or anyone actually :) already have some thoughts on already?
#
snarfed
kylewm: deployed your h-cite fix. thanks again!
#
aaronpk
good morning #indiewebcamp!
#
snarfed
morning aaronpk!
#
kbs
west coast signing in :)
#
snarfed
jinx :P
#
aaronpk
hmm i'd better make sure those pages reflect the current implementations
#
aaronpk
but yes we've had a few private messaging conversations
#
snarfed
even better
#
kbs
oh right - this is ACL-based communication, right?
#
aaronpk
essentially yes, even if the ACL is just one person
#
kbs
gotcha. Yes - I started to look at this but didn't sink into the details - I know you did the PGP thing - any other projects that are working on endpoint-to-endpoint privacy?
#
aaronpk
yeah I made that example PGP message which was public, but I alsoc could have only let sandeep see that message
#
kbs
*nod* makes sense. I'm rather interested in the endpoint-to-endpoint thing
#
kbs
and ran into some trickiness around a couple of areas to do with multiple devices
#
kbs
and potentially forward security
#
aaronpk
i'm sure :)
#
aaronpk
hasn't the xmpp world been doing stuff like this?
#
kbs
yes, but it more or less assumes both parties are online
#
kbs
I have some hopes of making async communication work
#
kbs
it needs a few tweaks
#
aaronpk
email has kind of solved the async part, right?
#
aaronpk
email / smtp
#
aaronpk
smtp is store and forward, so just imagine your phone was actually an smtp server rather than your phone fetching from an imap server
#
kbs
Not the multi-device setup
#
kbs
and [not intrinsically] the forward secure bits
#
ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /webmention (+15) "/* IndieWeb implementations */"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
yeah true. do you have notes written up on this? even design goals?
#
kbs
yes - I have a few things locally - I should probably put up something on the wiki and start there you think?
#
aaronpk
yeah sure! it's a good way to get more eyes on it and to avoid repeating yourself in IRC :)
#
kbs
:-) thanks for the suggestion - guess it's time to start writing another essay
#
kbs
has never learnt the wit of brevity
#
aaronpk
doesn't have to be an essay! that's waht the {{stub}} tag is for
_6a68 joined the channel
iangreenleaf, paulcp and LauraJ joined the channel
tilgovi joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
sorry on that last one, that was me running tests on indiewebify.me
#
@haverholm
Finally, down the line, I'm going to adopt an #IndieWeb policy for my online presence: http://indiewebcamp.com/ Still a way to go, though.
(twitter.com/_/status/454656190170284032)
jonnybarnes, benprew, Sebastien-L and j12t joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Another day, another SQL injection vulnerability...
#
aaronpk
is that mentioned on the /databases page? heh
#
gRegor`
Heh, not sure.
#
gRegor`
Just a work-relatted vent
_6a68, tantek, LauraJ, snarfed and kevinirc joined the channel
#
bret
KartikPrabhu: what about the picture tag do you not like?
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
bret
aaronpk who were we talking with at HWC SF about camlistore?
#
KartikPrabhu
bret: mainly that it ties the responsiveness of the image to the viewport rather that to its own size on screen
#
bret
hrrm thats weird
#
aaronpk
bret: that was the other Aaron
#
KartikPrabhu
bret: so if i change my css to make my image gallery smaller it will still respond to viewport sizes
#
bret
:( he didnt rsvp
friedcell, _6a68, G________ and _6a681 joined the channel
#
tantek
ah that reminds me - I should upload the photo to indiewebcamp.com!
bupkes, markmhendrickson and pasevin joined the channel
#
kylewm
so it seems most major sites have updated their ssl certs by now, but not facebook or google ... should i read anything nefarious into this?
kbs joined the channel
#
kbs
aaronpk: what do you think about placing your current section (about exchanging encrypted messages) under a subheading of "confidentiality"? Thinking if it makes sense to divide things into three sections - authentication, integrity and confidentiality
Kopfstein joined the channel
#
kbs
(er, this is on /pgp)
j12t, KartikPrabhu and friedcell joined the channel
#
@kevinmarks
"@maryjofoley: ICYMI: Microsoft ending support for custom domains with https://www.outlook.com/owa/ and Hotmail: http://t.co/UYoMggkt4S" #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/454698888507572224)
markmhendrickson joined the channel
#
GWG
Good afternoon
#
kbs
hi GWG
#
GWG
I've been thinking about that article someone posted last night
LauraJ joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
which article?
benprew joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i can't say I'd argue with him. Its a high barrier to entry, but its basically a test bin. Its like walking in to an R&D department and saying, "these aren't consumer products!"
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: Her, I believe
#
ben_thatmustbeme
the links are pretty easy, yes, I think the microformats2 issue he brings up is really just a matter of getting more templates to support mf2
#
GWG
But, shouldn't it be more accessible?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
looks back at the author name, oh yes, Her.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Eventually. but until we have figured out exactly the best methods by practice whats the point of having everyone use it.
#
GWG
There are levels
#
GWG
The basics should be something most people can start out with now
#
ben_thatmustbeme
Just thinking of my friend's wordpress site. He has pingback already on there. He never really thought about the set-up, its just there because he saw a plugin for it. In time that will hopefully be replaced by webmention, but before that the mf2 markup has to be there.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
which they can. Create some links. She said that was pretty straight forward.
#
GWG
Well, I'm thinking of openness. The wiki should offer that
#
GWG
Can people accept that some non-techie people aren't getting past the basics, and that may be good enough?
dybskiy joined the channel
#
GWG
20% of all websites run Wordpress
#
KartikPrabhu
I think people are thinking about the "make easier" problem
#
ben_thatmustbeme
so you are saying we really need a simpler version of /wordpress for the layman
#
GWG
Which is why, as author points out, it is low hanging fruit.
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: i disagree that it is a low-hanging fruit
#
KartikPrabhu
making technical things accessible is a very hard task
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: You are thinking of full Indieweb goals.
#
KartikPrabhu
no. anything
#
KartikPrabhu
if you have a good idea to make anyone thing accessible lets say mf2 then put it on the wiki... a lot of people would be very happy
#
GWG
The low hanging fruit I'm talking about is converting existing individuals who have self-installed Wordpress to bringing in Indieweb support.
#
GWG
These are people who run their own sites already
#
KartikPrabhu
yes. but I don't see a good way other that "here install this theme/plugin"
#
ben_thatmustbeme
I think the place to work on that is convincing theme creators to add mf2 markup
#
kylewm
gRegor` posted a nice response in case anyof you hadn't seen it (although i think this is pretty much the same crew as last night) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-04-10/line/1397195303
#
ben_thatmustbeme
thats the big next step as i see it. then its basically transparent to users
#
KartikPrabhu
agrees with ben_thatmustbeme:
#
ben_thatmustbeme
there is really only what, 1 theme for WP that has mf2. SemPress
#
gRegor`
Agreed, ben_thatmustbeme
#
KartikPrabhu
also converting from mf to mf2 is very non-trivial
#
GWG
ben_thatmustbeme: I've been slowly adding markup to my child theme, which is a child of TwentyFourteen, the latest bundled Wordpress theme
#
gRegor`
I was mentioning to GWG that I'd like to make an mf2 version of twenty-fourteen, the default WP theme
pasevin joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Jinx, heh
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: not according to the /WordPress page - there are several themes
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: that is what I mean. You have to do it individually for each theme, you can't easily automate it
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: perhaps you could document *how* a theme author could add microformats2 to a WordPress theme.
#
GWG
2014 is the current default Wordpress theme, but they have a new one each year.
#
GWG
tantek: That depends on the original designer
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: I'll leave that to people who have worked with Wordpress more than I. gregor` and GWG
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i see 2 actually, Sempress and P2, the uf2 one is a plugin to try to add mf2 but the author says its very basic and you are better off with a theme that supports it
#
tantek
GWG - do you have no advice at all?
#
KartikPrabhu
I was commenting from the pov that it is hard to support legacy mf parsing and similarly adding mf2 to existing themes
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: if http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Themes is incorrect, please fix it
#
GWG
The issue with the child theme, which I'm doing, is that I've modified so much with it...
#
gRegor`
tantek: Unfortunately the problem with documenting how to add mf2 to WordPress themes is that themes can be so random. There's not really any "one way" to write themes.
#
ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, I don't think so, but i wouldn't call 2 "several"
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: would it be easier to simple fix the exiting classic microformats markup?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
unless there are more that are not on there
#
tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: right now at a glance it looks like 3
#
tantek
so if that's incorrect, then please fix it
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: I didn't understand that
#
tantek
in general, if you want to improve accessibility to WordPress users, improve the /WordPress page
#
GWG
tantek: That was part of what I thought I could do.
#
gRegor`
tantek: This is why I'm (kind of) interested in setting up versions of the Twenty-X themes.
#
GWG
2014 is a magazine layout.
#
GWG
Not for everyone
#
gRegor`
It's a start. It's probably the most used theme for the simple fact that it's the default.
#
KartikPrabhu
I have found no good way to handle such things in mf2py
#
KartikPrabhu
unless I ignore legacy mf
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: what do you mean "no good way"?
#
KartikPrabhu
I mean do I count hentry as h-entry ? or completely ignore legacy mf
#
GWG
gRegor`: I think that doing a version of default theme may be the wrong move, compared to doing a customizable theme people can work with.
#
gRegor`
GWG: My thought is, if they have the skill to modify some
#
gRegor`
Oops
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: is the final goal to have a Wordpress theme that on installation does everything indieweb?
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: if your parser sees "hentry" and *no* "h-entry", then yes, treat the "hentry" as "h-entry"
#
gRegor`
GWG: My thought is, if they have the skill to modify some base theme - like the HTML5 base theme we use for some of our clients - then they don't really need a custom theme from the indieweb anyway. They know HTTML and can add in the mf2
#
GWG
gRegor`: Do you know what a Theme Framework is?
#
tantek
gRegor`: that seems like a reasonable approach
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: but as in that link hentry could have a nested h-entry due to Wordpress shenanigans
#
ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /WordPress (+185) "/* Clarify Themes Vs Plugin */"
(view diff)
#
kbsriram.com
edited /pgp (+3869)
(view diff)
#
kbs
[for the interested
#
gRegor`
So I think a barebones theme that has mf2 would be a good thing to have - point the designers/developers that want to build a theme to use that. And them some common defaults that non-technical users could try out, like Twenty Fourteen.
#
GWG
gRegor`: I agree with both points.
#
gRegor`
I'm more interested in the latter, in the near term.
#
tantek
both of those sound good yes
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: it seems you are suggesting i ignore all the Wordpress shenanigans with the wrong nesting of h-entry in hentry
#
GWG
That's why I'm suggesting the framework idea in the long term
#
GWG
In the short term, I'm hacking the twenty-fourteen theme to pieces
pasevin joined the channel
#
ben_thatmustbeme
i'd agree making a modified Twenty Fourteen is a good thing to do. Honestly the more themes we give people to start from the better.
#
gRegor`
Back to work. I'll be back later.
#
GWG
I happened to have chosen it before I started talking to gRegor` about it
#
tantek.com
edited /WordPress (+430) "add "Working On" section with suggestions from gRegor and GWG"
(view diff)
#
tantek
thanks gRegor`
#
tantek
!tell gRegor`,GWG I've added your thoughts on projects to improve WordPress indieweb support here: http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Working_On - please feel free to expand/rewrite that section!
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: could you give an example of "the Wordpress shenanigans with the wrong nesting of h-entry in hentry" ?
#
tantek
that example is passed by the existing backcompat parsing documentation for microformats2
#
GWG
I just wanted to point of the Wordpress group did have a reason for not doing it.
#
Loqi
GWG: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: I've added your thoughts on projects to improve WordPress indieweb support here: http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Working_On - please feel free to expand/rewrite that section!
#
GWG
They thought it wouldn't make sense in a default. Can't blame them for that.
#
tantek
GWG - that's fine and I don't disagree.
#
tantek
We're still figuring this stuff out enough that we don't necessarily want to blast it out to *everyone*
#
GWG
Yes.
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: i see... I'll look at it in more detail
#
tantek
We're still changing things
#
GWG
I looked at the Indiemark document
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: or if you have an example of a WordPress blog post permalink that shows such "shenanigans" then we can pick apart the source to figure out what is going on
#
KartikPrabhu
yes. I will report such things as i find them
#
tantek
GWG - great! If you find anything there that either doesn't make sense, or seems like the priorities could be improved, please let me know
#
tantek
it's a work in progress and feedback is how we improve it
#
GWG
Well, I think if you reorder slightly...you could have a level 1 that is very accessible.
bupkes joined the channel
#
tantek
GWG - you need to be more specific, as everything that was added in each level was done so for a very good reason
#
tantek
doing nothing is also accessible
#
GWG
I have to read back in the conversations on that.
#
tantek
also, GWG - add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people :)
#
tantek
GWG - you shouldn't have to read back in the conversations - each has a "Why" section
markmhendrickson joined the channel
#
GWG
I was looking at Level 2 identity.
#
@haverholm
So, what #IndieWeb ready blogging tool shall I install to my domain? I'm on hired space, so strictly LAMP, no exotic PHP modules… @benwerd
(twitter.com/_/status/454712947382943744)
markmhendrickson and ttepasse joined the channel
#
@benwerd
@haverholm Idno is switching to MySQL over the next month for this reason. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/454713726755561473)
#
GWG
I'm looking at the multidimensional axes explanation.
j12t joined the channel
#
GWG
You are putting the levels before the axes.
#
tantek
GWG - yes, the levels are summaries
#
GWG
I'm saying, wouldn't it be easier to understand if the axes came first on the page?
#
GWG
I'm thinking of writing an example of what I'm thinking
#
@haverholm
RT @benwerd: @haverholm Idno is switching to MySQL over the next month for this reason. #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/454717957386825728)
#
kbsriram.com
edited /pgp (+1146) "/* Integrity */"
(view diff)
#
tantek
GWG - not really as easy things at every level are easier overall.
#
tantek
people more easily understand things breadth first (hence levels and summaries) rather than depth first (going deep on axes)
#
kbsriram.com
edited /pgp (-2) "fix section header"
(view diff)
#
kylewm
not to get too into marketing crap, but I think it would be cool to have a page with different fictional user profiles, like "if you are a hardcore blogger using wordpress, do this", "if you love twitter but want to own your tweets, do this", "if you are a developer and want to push the envelope forward, do this"
#
tantek
kylewm - the /generations page is kind of an actual formal analysis of such user profiles, based on real segments
#
GWG
What is the courteous way to add to the wiki?
#
GWG
I'm thinking of posting on my own site, and linking to my thoughts
#
tantek
GWG - as with any wiki, start with small edits. and if you're not sure, you can always ask here - especially if you check the history and can determine who's been recently editing
#
tantek
GWG - start with adding yourself to /irc-people
#
kylewm
tantek: that's a good point, but what do you say to gen 2 or 3 people who are too impatient to wait that long :)
#
tantek
you tell them, they're right, it's just not ready for them yet, but encourage them to come to a Homebrew Website Club meetup - which is for all levels of anyone with interest and passion about their own website
#
tantek
at such a meetup, they may find someone to help them step by step
#
tantek
which is really what gen 2 or 3 people need at this stage
#
kylewm
oh! i had exactly that situtaion at HWC
dybskiy joined the channel
#
tantek
bingo
#
markmhendrickson
hey everybody, just wanted to say hi since I'm getting into this channel for the first time. I'm Mark Hendrickson (http://markmhendrickson.com), I've seen a bunch of you at a couple indiewebcamps, and I'm hacking on an indieweb project called Asheville (http://asheville.io, channel: #asheville)
#
kylewm
I was talking to someone who has a domain name, knows design/frontend stuff inside and out, and just wants to POSSE tweets
#
kylewm
but I didn't know how to help :(
#
tantek
markmhendrickson: welcome back! :)
#
markmhendrickson
tantek, are you proud of me that i'm here? =)
#
tantek
super :)
#
markmhendrickson
i just spent 3 hours teaching myself IRC. my nerd cred is hurting
#
kylewm
(that is, he wanted to POSSE tweets without wordpress or bridgy publish, which are some more serious constraints)
#
tantek
kylewm - can you add that to the notes on the meeting page?
#
david.shanske.com
created /User:David.shanske.com (+32) "Created page with "= David Shanske = Working on it""
(view diff)
#
GWG
Been meaning to do that
#
tantek
kylewm - create a "San Francisco" subsection here: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club#Notes
#
kylewm
on it
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
kbs
[kylewm - http://kylewm.com/note/2014/04/11/3 - gmail atleast was fine when i checked a few hours after the first disclosure. Given the discovery was by a googler, maybe they had any issues handled previously. fwiw, also http://googleonlinesecurity.blogspot.com/2014/04/google-services-updated-to-address.html]
#
KartikPrabhu
markmhendrickson: does your own site use Asheville?
#
markmhendrickson
not yet but that's on the way. i wrote a few thoughts about that here http://markmhendrickson.com/post/25
#
markmhendrickson
my own website is going to be my main point of dogfooding, with all my photos, checkins, status updates etc that i'm already posting elsewhere on the web
#
KartikPrabhu
aah ok. just curious about how diff. people are implementing UIs and all that
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: this may help with your #microformats 2 question: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-faq#which_backcompat_root_classes
#
markmhendrickson
yea, the UIs will be interesting to see. very early still, i'm the only one hacking on it for the most part so far
#
tantek
markmhendrickson: add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: thanks added link to issue to refer while coding
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: great. if you find specific examples in the wild of microformats use (1 & 2) that you see problems with, please share the URLs (perhaps in #microformats) so we can analyze them
#
KartikPrabhu
yes. will do. I have been getting better at documenting things :)
#
david.shanske.com
edited /WordPress (+43) "/* POSSE */"
(view diff)
#
markmhendrickson.com
edited /IRC_People (+73) "Added myself (Mark Hendrickson)"
(view diff)
#
kylewm
tantek, etiquette-wise, should i include the person's name in the notes?
#
kylewm
kbs, thank you for the info. I should know better than to spread FUD about things I don't know about ... I was going by lastpass's security report https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38780898/lastpass-sec-report.png
#
kylewm.com
edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club () "(-3812) /* Notes */ notes from conversation about minimal implementation"
(view diff)
#
kbs
kylewm: dunno, also, just an excuse to test your webmention
#
kbs
and whether it likes IRC log based mentions ;-)
#
kbs
and, hey - seems to work
#
kylewm
whoa! that's awesome, I didn't know it would do that
#
kylewm
emergent behavior!
#
kbs
:-) nice
markmhen_ joined the channel
#
kylewm
if the think had had class u-in-reply-to, it would've showed up even prettier
#
kylewm
s/think/link/
#
Loqi
kylewm meant to say: if the link had had class u-in-reply-to, it would've showed up even prettier
#
kbs
I'll try to add some markup in the chat next time :)
ttepasse joined the channel
#
david.shanske.com
edited /User:David.shanske.com (+1052) "/* David Shanske */"
(view diff)
dybskiy joined the channel
#
GWG
I'm confued about p-summary
pasevin joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: what about it?
#
GWG
How to decide what it is?
#
KartikPrabhu
any text that would make sense without reading the whole article
#
GWG
Trying to decide where to pull it in from. On a Twitter length note, what would be the p-summary?
#
KartikPrabhu
notes don't need a summary
#
GWG
I'm trying to read up on the microformat markup.
#
GWG
An indieweb post could be an article or a note
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: non of the properties are compulsory. specially not p-summary
#
GWG
Okay
#
KartikPrabhu
if you would consider a piece of text as a summary (in the normal sense of the word) then mark it up with p-summary otherwise don't...
#
GWG
I've created a type called link on my site, which is technically a comment on another site.
#
KartikPrabhu
you mean a reply?
#
GWG
A specific type of reply.
#
GWG
I'm trying to map Wordpress conventions to Indieweb ones.
#
GWG
Link isn't a type of post, it is a type of style for a post
#
GWG
I'm overloading that.
#
GWG
The traditional reply as defined by the Indieweb standards I'm setting up under another format called an Aside.
kbs joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
GWG: it is always better to not have multiple names for the same thing
#
KartikPrabhu
also "aside" already has separate semantics in HTML5
#
GWG
Yes, but not in Wordpress
#
GWG
I agree with you, which is why I may rethink it. But the problem is that I can only use Wordpress post formats
markmhendrickson joined the channel
#
GWG
Wordpress Aside - "Typically styled without a title. Similar to a Facebook note update."
markmhendrickson joined the channel
#
gRegor`
kylewm: Should all the event / attendee info be removed from past event pages?
#
Loqi
gRegor`: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 56 minutes ago: I've added your thoughts on projects to improve WordPress indieweb support here: http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress#Working_On - please feel free to expand/rewrite that section!
#
GWG
gRegor`: What do you think about my problem?
#
gRegor`
I haven't looked at logs. What problem, GWG?
#
gRegor`
kylewm: I'm referring to this page, to be clear: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club
#
GWG
gRegor`: I'm trying to map Indieweb/microformat2 to Wordpress constructs
#
GWG
The alternative is to use custom post types.
#
gRegor`
Oh, "aside" for replies?
#
GWG
Yes
melvster joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Oy. Way to be confusing, WordPress... they have "post formats" and "post types"
#
gRegor`
You want the latter, a custom post type.
#
GWG
I've been using Post Formats. On the theory everything is a post.
#
GWG
I suppose I could switch to Post Types
#
gRegor`
They are all posts, of course, but to target them differently in themes / more easily query them, post types is the way to go.
#
GWG
I'm thinking about switching
#
GWG
I tried to go simple, but I may need to address this in a more complicated manner.
#
gRegor`
I really dislike some of WordPress's conventions.
#
gRegor`
Or seeming lack of them.
#
GWG
Going to Custom Post Types seems like it is getting away from the simplicity
_6a68 joined the channel
#
gRegor`
http://markjaquith.wordpress.com/2010/11/12/post-formats-vs-custom-post-types/ might be helpful. The first paragraph seems to contradict what I'm suggesting though.
#
gRegor`
"If you want it to show up in your site’s main RSS feed, then it’s probably not a custom post type."
#
GWG
Which is why I used formats
#
gRegor`
If I were a WordPress user, I think I would prefer that my "notes" and "posts" remain separate. And they would if you use custom Post Types.
#
GWG
Well, do I need my notes to be in my RSS feed?
#
gRegor`
What's your use case right now, GWG? You want to post articles, notes, and notes that are in-reply-to other notes/articles, right?
#
GWG
Plus Photos and Video
#
gRegor`
If that's the case, the simplest solution is: 1) edit your theme to mark up the h-entry for each WordPress post. That's the same for all those content types.
#
gRegor`
2) Use WordPress custom fields to add an in-reply-to field. Edit the theme so that if there is a value in that field, it adds the appropriate mf2 markup to the h-entry.
#
gRegor`
photo and video don't require special mf2, afaik
#
GWG
gRegor`: But they do require special styling.
#
GWG
I might need a custom post type with several post formats
#
gRegor`
Post formats give you that control, adding classes you can target with CSS.
#
gRegor`
But the mf2 markup is still the same. They're all still h-entry
#
GWG
I think I need to go back to the drawng board on design
#
GWG
Again
#
gRegor`
Start with adding h-entry to the theme so that every post can be ready by a parser (indiewebify.me)
#
GWG
I thought I did that
#
gRegor`
Then add custom fields for in-reply-to
#
GWG
I have to check my markup
#
gRegor`
Then, finally, tinker with display of different post types (photo, video, etc.)
#
GWG
I may keep things in the current fashion until I build something better elsewhere.
#
GWG
That's the wonder of theme switching
#
gRegor`
Yeah, definitely don't lose your current work :)
#
gRegor`
Maybe put it on Github
#
GWG
I think I'd wait on that till I had a 0.1 release.
#
GWG
The current work is based on Post Formats only.
#
gRegor`
I think I was over complicating the process in my mind late last night. I think following those three steps should help make it easier
#
GWG
This discussion makes me consider revisiting the decision for post formats vs post types.
#
GWG
And have both
#
GWG
I think I'm going to halt and write out a redesign plan before I proceed.
#
gRegor`
!tell kylewm Should all the event / attendee info be removed from past event pages? e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
gRegor`
Sounds like a good plan
#
kylewm.com
edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+3812) "Undo revision 8094 by [[Special:Contributions/Kylewm.com|Kylewm.com]] ([[User talk:Kylewm.com|talk]]). Whoa I accidentally deleted the majority of the content from this page when trying to edit part of edit. Reverting"
(view diff)
kbs joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club (+661) "re-adding notes from San Francisco"
(view diff)
#
kylewm
gRegor`: thank you for the heads up, reverted
#
GWG
Now I have to debate internally the difference between a comment and a reply
#
Loqi
kylewm: gRegor` left you a message 3 minutes ago: Should all the event / attendee info be removed from past event pages? e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-09-homebrew-website-club
#
GWG
Ah, well, this is the homebrew part, right?
#
gRegor`
Thanks, Loqi
#
Loqi
is done
#
gRegor`
Heh
#
GWG
Are any of you willing to let me pick your brain about the concept of sharing?
kbs joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
edited /User:Kylewm.com (+61) "/* other ideas/goals */"
(view diff)
#
kylewm
I'm not sure what I did that deleted so much of the page, tried to repro on my userpage, and it worked normally
#
kylewm
oh well, thank Ward for wikis
#
kylewm
GWG: what are you debating about sharing?
#
david.shanske.com
edited /User:David.shanske.com (+170) "/* Features in Development */"
(view diff)
#
GWG
Well, how do you distinguish between an article on another site you want to reply to and share with those who follow you and an article response to another person's article?
#
GWG
Basically, long form vs short form replies
#
gRegor`
You mean your replies to others' content?
markmhendrickson joined the channel
#
kylewm
I'm sure there are cleverer ways to do it, but I differentiate with an icon next to the reply/share context
#
kylewm
and I don't show replies on my homepage
markmhendrickson and dybskiy joined the channel
#
kylewm
philosophically, I think you would show a shorter version of a thing being replied to than a thing being shared
#
kylewm
like...if someone posted a video, and you wanted to comment on it, you wouldn't necessarily want to embed the video on your own site
dybskiy_ and netweb joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Oh, the differences between repost, reply, and repost with reply?
pauloppenheim joined the channel
#
GWG
See....no wonder I'm confused.
#
aaronpk
kbs: I have a section on /pgp?
#
aaronpk
go for it!
#
aaronpk
oh man too much backlog to catch up right now
#
kbs
aaronpk: yep, and okay :)
#
gRegor`
Can you give me a better example, GWG? I'm not sure what the question is.
#
GWG
Can I use an analogy?
dybskiy joined the channel
#
gRegor`
Sure
#
GWG
How does a share on Facebook Work?
#
GWG
Sharing a link on Twitter?
#
GWG
Where there isn't room for comment?
#
GWG
Compared to me going on a rant about someone else's rant
#
GWG
I think you got it closest with repost, reply, and repost with reply.
#
gRegor`
You shorten the text that gets cross-posted to Twitter to make sure it's under 140 characters.
#
gRegor`
FB has a much higher character limit. Not sure what it is.
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
gRegor`
SemPress theme is pretty nice as a base theme, actually. http://notizblog.org/
#
GWG
I like having a navigation bar
#
GWG
Sidebar
#
gRegor`
I mean as a base theme that you can point designers/developers to, that they can expand.
#
gRegor`
The theme screenshot on WordPress.org shows a sidebar, so I don't know what the options are.
#
GWG
I meant nomenclature on the reply thing
#
GWG
Not the type of bar I want
#
gRegor`
hm?
#
GWG
I like the simple black bar of the TwentyFourteen theme
#
GWG
But, I saw someone's modification using the hamburger type sliding menu that many sites have now
#
gRegor`
Friendfeed.com still exists. I'm amazed FB hasn't shut it down.
dybskiy joined the channel