#indiewebcamp 2014-04-25

2014-04-25 UTC
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tantek and as noted before, the newest Twitter profile page is basically a bad Facebook profile clone: https://twitter.com/genmon/status/459257786875265025/photo/1 (side by side comparison)
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@genmon Oi, Twitter, Facebook, GET A ROOM https://twitter.com/genmon/status/459257786875265025/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/459257786875265025)
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tantek thanks to kylewm for the link
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tantek silo UX is racing to a lowest common denonimator generic look & feel
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tantek so if you want indie UX, you have to DIY
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GWG Does my test site look like a bad clone?
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GWG Now I'm worrying
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tantek KartikPrabhu: interesting, when I changed my permalink and resent a webmention, it appears to have created a duplicate comment on your post
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KevinMarks_ has long argument about fragmentions in whatwg
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tantek GWG - the difference is, if your site does look like a clone, we know you specifically chose to do that *for yourself*!
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tantek KevinMarks: lol. #whatwg is good for that - long arguments :)
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tantek takes a peek
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I use the url to check if an existing mention exist. so if you change permalink, I am treating it as a separate mention. Any better suggestions?
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ngoldman noticed that too -- lots of people migrated away from facebook to twitter, seems odd twitter would want to imitate them
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KevinMarks_ I love that fragmentons are both ugly and insane and hacks and likely to collide with existing usage
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tantek KartikPrabhu - ah, perhaps I have 1) a responsibility to send you a webmention of the *old* URL, then 2) your responsibility to notice the redirect and update it on your end, 3) collapsing any duplicates
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tantek KartikPrabhu: hmm - I just tried that and it just moved my comment to the bottom, which seems wrong
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KartikPrabhu hmmm not sure how I am handling redirects
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tantek though it did use the redirected to URL
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tantek but now notice that bottom two comments have the sme URL
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KartikPrabhu Yes! I should check the u-url instead of source that sent the mention
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tantek IMO you site should keep track of when it *first* got the webmention for that comment, and sort by *create* date, not by *updated* date
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tantek e.g. when you edit/update comments on a FB post, it doesn't resort them, it leaves them where they were, and simply indicates that its been edited.
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KartikPrabhu I will see what is happening with those...
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KartikPrabhu I still have to fix your name :P
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tantek KevinMarks - sounds like they're trying to overdesign it? Without solid documented use-cases?
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KevinMarks_ they're trying to fold it in with other things like putting css queries in fragments
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I'm good at breaking things ;)
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KevinMarks_ and claiming that will collide
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tantek s/css queries/Selectors
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tantek I still like the whitespace solution
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KevinMarks_ I said use #$ for that and use jquery syntax
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tantek like #phrase+to+search+for
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KevinMarks_ then they got grumpier
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tantek or even #word+
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KevinMarks_ quite
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tantek jquery syntax *is* Selectors
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KevinMarks_ I think many words is actually better
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tantek don't call it by the derivative name
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KevinMarks_ but with a $ prefix
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tantek sure that makes sense to me
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KevinMarks_ rather than #css(stuuff)
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tantek so um, you could suggest to JonathanNeal that he implement #$(Selector) in his fragmention scripts ;)
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KevinMarks_ heh
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tantek code talks, IRC chatter walks
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KevinMarks_ I am trying to keep this simple
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KevinMarks_ I think that they call my url suggestions ugly and insane indicates exactly why they will work
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tantek your jquery $ syntax suggestion is a good nod to webdev nerds
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tantek it will increase the fragmention fanbase
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tantek sticks & stones
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KevinMarks_ as no-one will have made things like them before
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tantek I say ship the #$(selector) variant and see what happens
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GWG tantek: But does it? I was trying to be all inclusive.
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KevinMarks_ the huge cognitive dissonance markers I got are a good sign
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tantek like maybe you can then submit the fragmention.js lib as jquery plugin :D
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tantek maybe even propose it for jquery core
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GWG If I wanted a purple background, I'd have one. But white is in vogue
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tantek and get distribution that way
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KevinMarks_ bwahaha
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KevinMarks_ tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 32 karma
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tantek your time might be better spent that way than contributing to #whatwg chatter
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tantek if anyone who includes jquery on their site magically gets fragmention support - that will be a HUGE draw
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JonathanNeal Serious or joking? It wouldn't need to be a jQuery plugin to do that.
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tantek JonathanNeal: of course it needn't. the purpose of making it a jQuery plugin is political, not technical.
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KevinMarks_ you could let the browser do the CSS selection, right?
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tantek JonathanNeal: re: serious or joking - that depends on how world dominating you want to be
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KevinMarks_ I don't know the politics of jquery
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tantek KevinMarks_: no jquery-specific politics. just normal community-specific friendly wrapping.
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tantek presented as a jquery plugin, the jquery community may be more accepting of it.
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tantek lower barrier to their adoption of it
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tantek = more adoption, = more fragmention usage
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KevinMarks_ I don't know jquery well
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KevinMarks_ but it would be a good vector
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tantek I'm guessing JonathanNeal could easily wrap it into a jquery plugin
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tantek but my point is - THAT is the reason to add support for your #$(selector) idea
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tantek once you add that, you can claim fragmentions is jquery-like in that way, culturally compatible as it were
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KevinMarks_ has huge faith in JonathanNeal making things work
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tantek = more likely for that culture to accept it
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tantek and even embrace it
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KevinMarks_ getting into wordpress core is also good
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tantek.com created /scheduled (+1793) "stub with indieweb example, silo examples." (view diff)
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tantek darnit.
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tantek just found indiewebcamp.com/scheduling after writing that up
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KevinMarks_ hi hadleybeeman
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silencematters.com edited /IRC_People (+63) (view diff)
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JonathanNeal Who was asking for #$ ? What is the use case?
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Loqi the use case is signatures
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KevinMarks_ the whatwg discussion mentioned http://simonstl.com/articles/cssFragID.html
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JonathanNeal How would it work? #
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KevinMarks_ I was saying #$() to match jquery
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KartikPrabhu jeremyzilar: love the blog visual design :)
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jeremyzilar KartikPrabhu: Thanks!
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tantek.com edited /scheduling (+1501) "merge in new content from /scheduled" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu jeremyzilar: I'll send a mention from your article to mine if that is alright!
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tantek.com edited /scheduled () "(-1769) merge in new content from /scheduled to /scheduling and make this a redirect" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /delayed (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /scheduling (+31) "aka" (view diff)
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@jeremyzilar RT @kartik_prabhu: The #indieweb or: how I learnt to stop worrying and love the #blog. Comes about a year since I went indie (http://t.co/F… (twitter.com/_/status/459494551993204736)
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jeremyzilar KartikPrabhu: please do - I still have to get webmentions set up, and some form of commenting.
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kbs KevinMarks_: I much prefer the simplicity and relative robustness of your "link-to-phrase" of your approach compared to the css selector. The latter seems less practical to me...
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KartikPrabhu I just used the form below my article. and since yours does not have microformats yet my parser choked :) I'll have to add good defaults it seems :)
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KevinMarks_ oh, I do too
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KartikPrabhu kbs, KevinMarks_ : yup! agreed
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KartikPrabhu so muhc easier for non-techies to understand
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KevinMarks_ I think CSS selectors are a misstep, but they were being used as a counterargument that fragmentions would steal the namespace from
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kbs KevinMarks_: ah, gotcha. :)
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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tantek the URL-syntax-space that is ;)
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kylewm rascul: were you the person looking for indieweb icons for a font the other day? just noticed https://pfefferle.github.io/openwebicons/
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KevinMarks_ the whatwg discussion was very informative
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+372) "/* History */ add new UI which seems to copy Facebook" (view diff)
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JonathanNeal $() is ugly.
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JonathanNeal #$div.foo is prettier
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JonathanNeal But if you’re really going to do that, this becomes a platform.
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kbs I was also playing with using () to go back to your initial brainwave from annotations - ie, #search+for+this(with+my+comment+added) - eg: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/silly/test.html##Brennan+Novak(Brennan+is+bnvk+on+#indieweb+and+#mailpile)
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JonathanNeal You might as well ##text=unique+term, ##re=regex(expression), ##selector=element.query
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KevinMarks_ which is what i wanted to avoid, yes
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JonathanNeal kbs: interesting idea for annotations, I thought ++ being the universal separator was good enough.
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KevinMarks_ the point of $() is that it is jquery syntax, which people know
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KevinMarks_ http://api.jquery.com/category/selectors/
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JonathanNeal not really, $('string') is what people know
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JonathanNeal and by string, they mean what we now know as a query selector
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silencematters.com edited /logo (+60) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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JonathanNeal most assuredly, when they think jquery, they think query selector, they think css.
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KevinMarks_ so quotes in the URL. You're going to have a bad time.
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kbs (JonathanNeal: agree. personally, just tickled pink with the little hacks anyone can build on top of the simple idea I guess. it's all very nifty.)
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KevinMarks_ kbs that is rather a cute use
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KevinMarks_ kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 1 karma
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kbs think it's all to do with the basic robustness of your idea - very easy to morph it depending on what people find interesting
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KevinMarks_ I think you just made the original google concept
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KevinMarks_ http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003_02_01_archive.html##annotate+the+web
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kbs haha :)
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kylewm love that quote, kind of a “if you want to bake an apple pie from scratch, first you have to invent the universe” sort of thing
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rascul works on inventing the universe
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rascul kylewm thanks for the link
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: any help with this https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py/issues/33 would be appreciated :)
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KartikPrabhu suggestions needed: While parsing a HTML document is it safe to always assume 'UTF8' encoding?
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KevinMarks_ oh boy
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KevinMarks_ it's a decent default assumption, but you do want to override it with what the page says
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KevinMarks_ html5lib should get this right
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KevinMarks_ but one place you can be told is in the HTML headers
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KevinMarks_ tantek's page has a meta charset though
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu I thought Beautiful Soup would guess from metacharset but it doesn't!
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KevinMarks_ force it to use html5lib
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KevinMarks_ it's guessing win1252
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KartikPrabhu hmm alrighty
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KartikPrabhu holy cow! seem the python requests lib is messing it up in the first place!!
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KartikPrabhu this is more complicated that I thought!!
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: i think fragmentions are not actually ugly though! cause if you see a link like example.com/page##some+thing even if it doesn't do anything it gives you a sort of idea of what i'm tryign to link to
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tantek yes! it keeps the URL some still human friendly
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tantek and thanks to people "understanding" hashtags
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tantek oh
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tantek "fragtags" ;)
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KevinMarks_ whatwg peeps hated it for that reason
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tantek for WHAT reason? ;)
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KevinMarks_ thing is hashtags imply leave out spaces between words
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tantek true - tags in general
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tantek ok good point, I retract fragtags
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KevinMarks_ http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140425##insane
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aaronpk KevinMarks++ for "I'm hearing emotion words, not arguments"
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Loqi KevinMarks has 24 karma
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KartikPrabhu hmm weird! Will they change their minds if a lot people start using fragmentions?
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aaronpk wow that got a lot of engagement from #whatwg
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KartikPrabhu hmmm they seem to be looking at it from "I want to search this text" rather than "I want to refer to this context"
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KartikPrabhu hence all the "how do I do single word", or "how do I search for part of a word"
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes they will change their minds if adoption takes off
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KartikPrabhu maybe I should seriously push to make a "fragmention generator" + a demo post with 'annotations'
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KevinMarks There was one objection that ux to find a nearby anchor to bookmark would be good. Which fits in with what you are trying
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gregorlove.com edited /generations (+0) "/* Generation 1 IndieWeb */ Fix HWC link" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /HomeBrewWebsite_Club (+35) "redir for completeness ;)" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /generations (+0) "/* Generation 2 IndieWeb */ Fix HWC link" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: yes, but i think finding the closest anchor is counter-productive! finding some unique fragmention phrase would be more appropriate
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KartikPrabhu tantek: Is is possible for you to include a charset in your html response headers?
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+55) "+ Next HWC" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Oh agreed. That was being used as an argument against human editable URLs
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KartikPrabhu hmm I like human editable URLs
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KevinMarks KartikPrabhu he shouldn't have to, your parser should respect the one in the page
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KevinMarks I do too. Hence my case for #word+syntax
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KevinMarks They claimed the UA should make a URL for the user
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KartikPrabhu re:encoding hmm yeah the problem is the python request object tries to guess and it guess ISO-whatever. So I have the wrong encoding before I get to the content where there is a charset=utf-8
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KartikPrabhu re: UA for fragmentions: UA are good to have as enhancement, but that shouldn't prevent humans from editing URLs... sort of like progressive enhancement type philosophy
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club (+3234) "Initial event page" (view diff)
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gRegor` Guess we need to get someone to take our photo at next HWC, KartikPrabhu. Haha
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KartikPrabhu hmm you mean both the two of us!!!
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KartikPrabhu oh noes
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tantek yes you do!
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next HWC" (view diff)
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gRegor` And to prove I'm not an insect creature from Kafka :)
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KartikPrabhu also @mariheurtas was at the SF HWC but she's from Chicago!
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KartikPrabhu and I'm not a recursive shadow :P
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gRegor` Ooh, new people. Nice
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gRegor` Think we'll need another location quickly, though
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KartikPrabhu I guess we should officially invite her or something
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KartikPrabhu https://twitter.com/marihuertas/status/459156794929999873
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@marihuertas At the #indieweb meetup, I mentioned having a list of tech education resources –– here it is! Enjoy. https://twitter.com/marihuertas/tech-education/members (twitter.com/_/status/459156794929999873)
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tantek yes you should!
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tantek I invited Andres (her husband) to go last night but he was busy.
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+0) "/* Upcoming */ + next HWC" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+941) "/* 2014 */ + last HWC" (view diff)
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kylewm just installed fragmentions.js as a greasemonkey script in firefox. seems to work out of the box!
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kylewm cc: JonathanNeal ^
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gRegor` On http://indiewebcamp.com/Events could I just add u-url mf on the first wiki page link so the second one doesn't need to be included?
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gRegor` for HWC
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@kartik_prabhu @marihuertas @gRegorLove and I have a biweekly #indieweb meetup right here in Chicago. We'd love to have more… (http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/HWC-Chi-huertas) (twitter.com/_/status/459519287992930304)
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gRegor` ^tantek
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KartikPrabhu well there! I did attempt an invitation
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+0) "/* Upcoming */ date fix" (view diff)
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gRegor` Back to the template sandbox, to make the event listing look nicer. :)
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/459519419887001600
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@jkphl @aaronpk Thanks, Aaron! Didn't want to sound too pessimistic or offend anyone — hope I didn't! I'm confident we can always do better tho! ;) (twitter.com/_/status/459519419887001600)
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gRegor` Good job on that post, aaronpk
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KartikPrabhu now I'm glad I didn't reply myself :P
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aaronpk thanks
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: pardon the constant notifications if any from the charset unicode bug
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kylewm no worries, I was hoping it was going to be that you were using response.content instead of response.text
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kylewm but looks like it is not
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GWG yawns
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KartikPrabhu yeah. that was my first guess too. Will attempt some fix
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GWG It has been a long day
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kylewm hmm, maybe you can encode content manually
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KartikPrabhu yes. but I'll have to first extract the HTML charset and then rebuild the response.text
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KartikPrabhu or I can actually use response.content and encode myself
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KartikPrabhu which is more robust?
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm they are the same :P
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kylewm happy to see that reply from jkphl but I'm still mildly irritated that aaronpk's post doesn't show up in his replies :)
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aaronpk true
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: <meta charset="utf-8" /> doesn't work as the charset type?
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KartikPrabhu it does. So do I make a BS object get charset and rebuild it!
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@aaronpk @jkphl btw did my webmention come through ok? I got a successful reply from your webmention endpoint but I'm not... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/04/24/2/ (twitter.com/_/status/459522558522425344)
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kylewm ohh in the headers, sorry I am catching up
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kylewm is lighty supposed to do that and not?
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KartikPrabhu who is lighty?
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kylewm oh wait, this is weird
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kylewm the response from tantek.com does have a charset
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kylewm but not from the post permalink
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KartikPrabhu eh! what?
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kylewm sorry lighttpd
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kylewm it's pronounced lighty
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KartikPrabhu tantek: noticed that your homepage send a charset in headers but your post does not. intentional?
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JonathanNeal kylewm: great to read
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+1328) "playing around with event template ideas" (view diff)
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JonathanNeal So, now that the WHATWG arguments have cooled, what would you all like done with fragmentions.js?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: to what end?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: sounds like an oops on my part!
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KartikPrabhu aaha! :) I am also good are 'breaking things' :P
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KartikPrabhu though do you think I should be accounting for that contingency?
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JonathanNeal Should we switch back to pure ##, or add selectors #$ or what?
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KartikPrabhu I think we should forget the WhatWG arguments and stick to what we feel is the best syntax. If people like it and adopt it then the WHATWG folks will change their minds
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KartikPrabhu so far the pure ## seems best
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kylewm I didn't read the whole whatwg thread, but I thought the point that, if you're going to overload fragments once to make it extensible, it'd be nice to leave room for future extension of that
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kylewm was a good one
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kylewm i.e., the argumetn for ##text=search+string
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aaronpk I think just ## leaves plenty of room cause nobody else wants to use it :)
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KartikPrabhu why? ##search+string is fine
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KartikPrabhu if someone wants to use #$ for other things like funny CSS selectors (I don't know why you'd have CSS selectors in the URL) they can later
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kylewm ##key=value leaves room for future extension
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aaronpk #key=value leaves room too
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+791) "rough idea" (view diff)
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aaronpk whoa nice gRegor`
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kylewm it sounded like # was a non-starter for them
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KartikPrabhu yup! I don't see how this is dif. from usual fragments
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aaronpk wait what is their current prefix?
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gRegor` Thanks
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`++
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Loqi gRegor` has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu hey you can haz karma now!
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kylewm gRegor`: I want that date bubble on my site now :)
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KartikPrabhu I had a Blogger template once with date bubbles
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gRegor` Too bad! It's in my sandbox silo now and you can't have it. ;)
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kylewm it reminds me of a 90s iteration of powazek.com. he was my web design hero
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kylewm (90s in a good way)
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gRegor` The spirit of the '90s is alive in . . . indiewebcamp
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gRegor` I searched for some good calendar design patterns. Didn't find much I liked, so just playing around with this.
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: i say stick with #
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gRegor` Figured it would look nicer than a wall of text on the /events page
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kylewm oh crap, he worked at Technorati. tantek and KevinMarks do you know Derek Powazek?
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KevinMarks_ but only trigger if there is a space
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tantek kylewm I helped bring him into Technorati :)
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kylewm 's brain asplodes
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KartikPrabhu asplodes! lol
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gRegor` Haha
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kylewm :)
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GWG I remember Technorati. Does that still exist?
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KartikPrabhu If the HTTP response encoding is different from the HTML charset which one to trust?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: trust only yourself
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KartikPrabhu that does not work if i have automated code :P
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: thanks
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tantek KartikPrabhu: my posts do send <meta charset="utf-8" /> in the HTML which should be enough
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KartikPrabhu yes. So I should be taking that into account.
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KartikPrabhu hmm ok
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/459530498193108992
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@jkphl @aaronpk Yes, it's in the DB, but it seems there has been a processing error (on my side). I'm on a train right now, will fix it ASAP! Thx! (twitter.com/_/status/459530498193108992)
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KartikPrabhu hmm very nice
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: can you use http://docs.python-requests.org/en/latest/api/#requests.utils.get_unicode_from_response
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KartikPrabhu oh! damn... ok will try
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KartikPrabhu nope doesn't work :(
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kylewm boo
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KartikPrabhu I think I'll do this. Make a soup. use it to get charset from HTML. If charset does not match, then use HTML charset and rebuild
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KartikPrabhu i think requests implicitly uses all those requests.util things
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gRegor` GWG: Yep, it does. I just logged in, for kicks.
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gRegor` Oops, forgot to scroll.
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gRegor` that was Re: technorati still existing
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: oh, darn yeah. probably the same issue where it sees content-type=text/html and thinks that's good enough
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KartikPrabhu yup :)
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JonathanNeal Is there indie event management software?
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aaronpk oh man so close
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aaronpk can't get it to work with pushtate
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aaronpk pushstate
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aaronpk go to one of my articles http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2014/03/23/1/posting-photos-on-my-own-site
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aaronpk (make sure to hard refresh to get the new js)
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aaronpk then select a few words of text
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gRegor` technorati appears to still work, but in need of attention.
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gRegor` the blog link goes to http://technoratimedia.com/tm-blog/ which is a default 404
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gRegor` It's actually http://technoratimedia.com/blog/
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KartikPrabhu !tell barnabywalters how does php-mf2 get the encoding in http://tantek.com/2014/114/t1/helping-indie-generations-indieweb-article correct even though it has no charset in the response header.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek aaronpk - that's fascinating
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tantek it does seem to scroll back up to the top of the page after pushstate updates the URL
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tantek also the single # version doesn't seem to navigate to that selection in a new tagb
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tantek s/tagb/tab
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Loqi tantek meant to say: also the single # version doesn't seem to navigate to that selection in a new tab
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I seem to be getting this fragmention "#you've+successfully created" from this phrase "you've successfully created" why no second + sign?
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+1401) "rough idea for multi-day events." (view diff)
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: using /g?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: meaning regex? but is that the right fragmention?
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kylewm so
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kylewm window.location = location + "##" + getSelectedText().replace(/ /, '+');
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kylewm should be / /g
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kylewm ?
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JonathanNeal yes, and it should be /\s+/g
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JonathanNeal any type of space, including tabs and newlines.
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KartikPrabhu aah ok so it is an error
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snarfed kylewm: hey, just noticed the last few new commits on your PR. is it ready for another look?
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kylewm snarfed: hi! so i'm just adding unit tests now (have about 4 left), i don't expect the code to change more than a little
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snarfed cool, ok
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kylewm so if you are in the mood to review, any time from now into the future is good :)
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kylewm well, 5 minutes from now, i can check in what i have
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: curious as to what do you use for webmention parsing?
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snarfed no hurry!
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kylewm which part, KartikPrabhu? parsing out the author and content and stuff?
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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kylewm no hurry from me either, snarfed, but i'm excited that it's getting close
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KevinMarks KartikPrabhu if you forced it to use html5lib does it still mess up encoding?
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KartikPrabhu yeah it is not a problem with BeautifulSoup. It is with the requests module which defaults to ISO-whatever if it finds no charset in the response headers
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KevinMarks I had hoped that the breathtaking hack stage of encoding parsing was over
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KevinMarks Why is that even decoding it?
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kylewm I wrote some stuff to do it, I'm not in love with it... https://github.com/kylewm/red-wind/blob/master/redwind/util/hentry_parser.py
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I could try using the byte stream and then use html5lib. If that works that'll be brilliant
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@cczona RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459554637528313856)
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KevinMarks That would be more in tune with the python 3 way, no?
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KartikPrabhu eh... I am quite ignorant about pythonic ways having been doing python for just about a year
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JonathanNeal I think http://davidwalsh.name/demo/html5-context-menu.php should be the way one creates webmentions
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JonathanNeal sorry, fragmentions
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@cgranade RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459555012788486144)
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KevinMarks The old way was try: parse('utf8') except: parse('win1252')
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: holy mother of encodings! that worked
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 25 karma
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kylewm hahaha, thats awesome!
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KartikPrabhu judas priest... can't beat experienced programmers ;)
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kylewm but...does it ignore the http-header encoding?
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KartikPrabhu I think it treats it as a byte-string and uses the charset in HTML due to the html5lib :D
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kylewm snarfed: I'm happy with what's in the repo as of now, feel free to review with extreme prejudice
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snarfed kylewm: cool, will do
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KartikPrabhu updating mf2py with this neato fix
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kylewm oh i mean, but what if the encoding is ONLY in the http header
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kylewm do we lose it by skipping the requests.text decoding?
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kylewm lemme see if i can set up a test endpoint for you to try it against
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@jhelwig RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459556537103425536)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yup! just use r.content instead of r.text in making the BS object :)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm, snarfed: should I force mf2py to use html5lib? I have refrained so far so as to fall back to the default python parser if html5lib is not installed
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kylewm my understanding is that libxml is a whole lot faster...
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kylewm sorry lxml
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KartikPrabhu yeah it is. so default order is lxml>html5lib>pythonparser
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: re: redwind mentions parsing: if I am not wrong, you don't make room for the fact that the webmention url has no microformats...
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KartikPrabhu re: html5lib: it is already in themf2py requirements.txt anyway
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KevinMarks I'd say prefer html5lib because it is reliably doing what the spec says
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KartikPrabhu agreed
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KevinMarks I'm sure your test sites mostly have valid xml
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: would you plz try this with your new setup http://kylewm.com/test/encoding
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KevinMarks But as you hit more, you want the HTML5 wisdom
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kylewm it sounded like lxml performed ok with less-than-valid xml
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kylewm but html5lib does sound safer
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: that endpoint does not work as no charset in head :)
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KartikPrabhu put charset and I can attempt again :)
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kylewm that was my point ;)
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kylewm charset only in the http header
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KartikPrabhu aah!
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KartikPrabhu oh so in this case r.text is better than r.content ... what a nightmare :P
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KevinMarks Gah.
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: it seems encoding nightmares haven't gone away yet!
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KevinMarks I used to have to do that try/except thing for each text run independently
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KevinMarks Because bloggers would copy and paste
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kylewm oh lordy
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KevinMarks If you copy win1252 with a shift-space in, it's invalid utf8
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KevinMarks Invisible to the blogger, throws an exception
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KevinMarks Pretty sure universal feed parser coped with all the ways encoding could be expressed. I'll go look it up
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KartikPrabhu I could explicity look up charset in headers?
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KartikPrabhu so if charset exists in headers use r.text else use r.content
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kylewm KevinMarks: php-mf2 seems to get it right too
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kylewm we're just not sure how
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KartikPrabhu I did leave barnabywalters a message... lets see what he says. though his timezone is diff.
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kylewm and kartik, you're right, hentry_parser doesn't return anything useful when there are no microformats
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: ok cool . was working on my own parser to return good default just in case. Will make it public soon
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KevinMarks_ https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/character-encoding.html
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KevinMarks_ it's not pretty
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I have been wondering about a mf2 'normaliser' for webmentions that would take mf2 json and return mf2 json, but with things filled in and moved around if necessary
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ that is what requests does. it defaults to ISO-blah if the type is "text/html" and no charset is found. but then the HTML contains charset with UTF-8
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: I am doing this only for webmentions and returning a nice mention dictionary/object
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kylewm nice mention dictionary/object == mf2?
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KartikPrabhu no. containing proeprties that a mention would want, like author-details, truncated content etc...
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KevinMarks_ and 220 encoding tests
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: i'll put it up soon and you should feel free to add/improve it if it suits your needs better :)
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KevinMarks_ and a test suite that includes a custom http server to send bad headers
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KevinMarks_ https://code.google.com/p/feedparser/source/browse/feedparser/feedparsertest.py
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KevinMarks_ markp++
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Loqi markp has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu will play with those. thanks KevinMarks_
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KevinMarks_ hm html5lib has a lot of encoding tests too
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KevinMarks_ also chardet
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KartikPrabhu requests uses chardet to decide defaults and it fails for tantek's posts
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KartikPrabhu the problem is when requests and html5lib are in conflict which on to trust more
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kylewm KevinMarks_ so tantek return's Content-Type: 'text/html' in his http headers. the RFC says to default to ISO-8859-1 for text/html if no charset is defined, so isn't the HTTP header effectively specifying a charset (albeit the wrong one)?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: updated mf2py with workaround. Let me know if you find a better solution :)
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kylewm ah, clever workaround
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kylewm thumbs up
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KevinMarks Any of your indie projects fit this https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat
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KartikPrabhu sounds like a great opportunity for folks
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@sarahsharp RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459580511183073281)
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459580913815285760)
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@markodugonjic RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459581792438484992)
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@markperera RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459582081883193344)
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@roseg RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459582402860314624)
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@_swanand RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459583748212674560)
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@s_jeanne RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459586103646117888)
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@AAinslie RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459591253827784704)
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@parkparadigm RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459591530547011584)
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@odysseus_nz RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459592860980228097)
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@wholemilk RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459594118524448769)
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tantek wow benwerd you touched a nerve
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@shobhitic RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459598420773060608)
eschnou, eternicode, BjornW, dybskiy, Guest70785, glennjones, pasevin and dybskiy_ joined the channel
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@glennjones On the plus side Moves has provided good data export, time to start writing an importer into my own data site #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459620483701690368)
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@bijendrakr RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459623652237905920)
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@martinezjavier RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459629860651274240)
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Loqi barnabywalters: KartikPrabhu left you a message 6 hours, 10 minutes ago: how does php-mf2 get the encoding in http://tantek.com/2014/114/t1/helping-indie-generations-indieweb-article correct even though it has no charset in the response header.
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: PHP magic hack time! https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/blob/master/Mf2/Parser.php#L49
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barnabywalters it’s the only fool-proof way I’ve found to parse HTML using PHP
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barnabywalters DOMDocument has weird issues with unicode by default
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barnabywalters it’s a bit nasty, but it works perfectly
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@ppatel Great deal. Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459652800797220864)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/08/23/web-design-conferences-and-events/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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@szakulec RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459657781289955328)
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@jenmylo RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459668347919945728)
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@andrea_r RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459668430896259073)
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@jthomasgriffin RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459671950504103936)
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@DullesTech Fascinating talk at Loudoun Startups event last night w/ @BigDataDistrict. Advocating for a Data Bill of Rights #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/459676402024189952)
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@BigDataDistrict RT @DullesTech: Fascinating talk at Loudoun Startups event last night w/ @BigDataDistrict. Advocating for a Data Bill of Rights #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/459682341833551873)
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@jason_coleman RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459683273997037568)
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@bmoredrew RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459683686623895553)
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@patpound1 “ deal. Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb …” (twitter.com/_/status/459685597938843649)
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@madeofpeople Whos coming to indiewebcamp? http://indiewebcamp.com/ @lifewinning @zearl @hornbein (twitter.com/_/status/459691078401409025)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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barnabywalters greetings txkimmers! welcome to #indiewebcamp
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GWG Hello again, barnabywalters
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barnabywalters afternoon GWG
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GWG What's going on there?
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning/afternoon/evening/night all
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Greetings.
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ben_thatmustbeme what are you guys up to?
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I need to pack up and head back home to NYC so I can be at indiewebcamp tomorrow
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GWG But I'm procrastinating and looking at the theme I've been working on that I want to deploy to my site
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GWG I think I'm nearly there
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: How do you think this is coming along? http://tiny.n9n.us
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GWG I think, a few more tweaks, and I'll do the rest of the dev work on the live site
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ben_thatmustbeme its looking good
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, that generic brand video
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Loqi awesome
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ben_thatmustbeme ironically, thats from the people who bought my twitter handle from me
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ben_thatmustbeme they paid for my trip to niagara falls
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GWG Small world. I just googled generic.
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GWG It is a test site
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: ha ha wow that’s hilarious
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barnabywalters what was the twitter name?
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah $1500 for @dissolve wasn't too bad considering i don't use it too much
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GWG I can't figure out if I could put the social icons somewhere better
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG: I think they look pretty good there, though it does take up a lot of room since you need all that space to the left of it
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ben_thatmustbeme i like the circles, perhaps at the bottom of the side bar?
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GWG Bottom or top of the side bar?
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ben_thatmustbeme bottom, otherwise it would look funny
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GWG I don't like the side bar styling.
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ben_thatmustbeme the titles in the side bar need more spacing on the left for sure
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I haven't worked on that part much yet. I don't like how it looks.
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GWG I've been working on the basic page layout and the content types.
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GWG And the sidebar widgets are not the ones I would use. They are just stock.
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GWG I'll probably put an h-card there
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah. but i like the design, the rounded cards look is nice
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ben_thatmustbeme i have a lot of work to do on mine design wise
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I looked at Google+, Twitter, and Facebook...
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GWG They all use cards, but not rounded ones.
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ben_thatmustbeme https://twitter.com/genmon/status/459257786875265025/photo/1
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@genmon Oi, Twitter, Facebook, GET A ROOM https://twitter.com/genmon/status/459257786875265025/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/459257786875265025)
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GWG The boxes all look the same
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GWG I'm in that family, but different enough
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed
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GWG Well, as I've mentioned...want to distribute this to others who want an MF2 compliant theme.
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txkimmers o hi! Sorry was in another window, hello hello
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah. Its coming along great for sure
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GWG Hello, txkimmers
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barnabywalters GWG: http://tiny.n9n.us/ is looking good! might I suggest making the drop shadows a little more subtle?
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barnabywalters GWG: e.g. here is the design with 10px border radius and box-shadow: 0 0 5px #BBB
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barnabywalters http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/screen-shot-2014-04-25-at-143644.png
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barnabywalters ooh, responsive too! nice work
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ben_thatmustbeme ohh, it is! *tests* nice!
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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GWG barnabywalters: Responsive was the goal.
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GWG But I think I will do the softer shadows.
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GWG More Social Media like
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GWG There we are
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barnabywalters GWG: when it comes to things like this ask: what is the value of the shadow? what is it doing? what’s the minimum amount of visual noise and code required to achieve that?
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GWG I need to read up on design principles.
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barnabywalters in this case, the shadows are giving “thingness” to the posts, making them appear like distinct things
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barnabywalters but you barely need any shadow to achieve that
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GWG This is my first major design project in a while.
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barnabywalters GWG: no worries, design is hard :) I’m not much good at it myself
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dhornbein.com edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+287) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters but simply asking “what is this doing” and “how can it be done better” are hugely beneficial
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GWG barnabywalters: I've been playing with layout for two weeks now.
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GWG I spent a lot of time on the entry metadata, and I'm still not sure of the positioning
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GWG I also commented out the Wordpress comment form because it was messing up the layout. I need to write my own
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GWG Then it was KartikPrabhu who was making a case for disabling comments in favor of webmentions entirely.
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@elioverbey RT @benwerd: Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb … (twitter.com/_/status/459708604929437697)
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@jalbertbowdenii @getify #indieweb #indieweb #indieweb #freesoftware #indieweb #mozilla #eff #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459709059630133248)
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GWG I want to thank both of you for your suggestions
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@PD90 @jnadeau7 Stripe will pay open source developers $7.5k/month to focus on their projects for 3 months: https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-open-source-retreat #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/459714563379068928)
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@kyle_wm Great article! Brace yourself for more attention #indieweb RT @dangillmor Why the Indie Web movement is so important http://dangillmor.com/?p=1173 (twitter.com/_/status/459719371284172802)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/SF (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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dangillmor Just in time for the NYC camp, I finally got that piece on #indiewebcamp done. It's at Slate: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html and (of course) on my blog http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/
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barnabywalters nicely done dangillmor!
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barnabywalters dangillmor: one small weirdness about that article: it links to https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention%E2%80%8E
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dangillmor from where?
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barnabywalters from your blog
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barnabywalters the link does actually work, it just looks a bit weird
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dangillmor hmmm, in my html it shows up as a normal link: <a href="https://indiewebcamp.com/webmention”Ž">webmention</a>"
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@iboxifoo RT @kyle_wm: Great article! Brace yourself for more attention #indieweb RT @dangillmor Why the Indie Web movement is so important http://t.… (twitter.com/_/status/459723213279211520)
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barnabywalters hrm yes that is true
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barnabywalters maybe it’s some weird firefox issue
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu I can add to the chrome extension so that you get a “create fragmention” item in your context menu.
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JonathanNeal thoughts?
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GWG Time to hit the open road...onward to Indiewebcamp NYC
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KevinMarks https://blog.twitter.com/2014/increase-traffic-and-conversions-with-the-new-website-card not even pretending this is anything other than monetization now
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barnabywalters weird pattern
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barnabywalters * make extremely simple, constained platform
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barnabywalters * it becomes popular
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barnabywalters * sell THE ABILITY TO ADD PICTURES AND TEXT TO POSTS
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barnabywalters sort of an artificial scarcity
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barnabywalters of rich content
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bret artificial scarcity, the worst kind of scarcity
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barnabywalters bret: yeah, artificial purely because one company holds the power
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barnabywalters just as facebook is creating artificial scarcity of transmission
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barnabywalters advertising: “pay to show your content to people who don’t want to see it”
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barnabywalters facebook: “pay to show your content to people who *do* want to see it”
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tantek see you in NYC GWG!
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barnabywalters tantek: have a good time!
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barnabywalters try to persuade the NYT to accept indieweb comments :P
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tantek barnabywalters: will do!
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bret tantek GWG: what are you going to work on for the hack day?
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tantek webmentions to articles! that would be awesome
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tantek maybe we can start with getting their blogs to accept webmentions
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tantek bret - I've got my Markup for Personal Comms blog post almost ready. So I'm likely going to work on getting all the CSS to work.
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bret Sweet!
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KevinMarks Do we need to recheck the links? The other night some seemed to fall
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bret KevinMarks++ on your fragments work!
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Loqi KevinMarks has 26 karma
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KevinMarks Thanks bret but Jonathan is doing the legwork there while I bicker about it
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barnabywalters JonathanNeal++
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Loqi JonathanNeal has 6 karma
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bret JonathanNeal++
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Loqi JonathanNeal has 7 karma
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@ellisonthomas #IndieWebCamp this weekend in NYC for all the decentralized types. https://slate.me/1nMKwtX (twitter.com/_/status/459740325419180032)
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tantek so Twitter wants sites to pay to have "Website Cards" show up?
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tantek I don't get it. FB doesn't charge to have OGP link-preview information show up.
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barnabywalters tantek: no, they charge to have *anything* show up consistently
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tantek ugh
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tantek I tried checking out the slate.me link in this tweet and the domain is unresponsive: https://twitter.com/ellisonthomas/status/459740325419180032
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@ellisonthomas #IndieWebCamp this weekend in NYC for all the decentralized types. https://slate.me/1nMKwtX (twitter.com/_/status/459740325419180032)
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@An_Oracle The #IndieWeb could be what saves our #freespeech on the #internet from commercial filtering. http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html (twitter.com/_/status/459742134011060225)
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tantek oh there it is
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tantek go dangillmor!
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aaronpk yeah Loqi should be un-shortening the link
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aaronpk awesome post dangillmor!
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dangillmor Appreciated the help of folks here... Fantastic community you've developed.
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kylewm somebody create /POSSE_to_Slate!
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tommorris This evening, I’m trying to put my weird OSM back-end stuff into production so that Indiewebsters can build 4sq-a-like stuff on top of OpenStreetMap
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aaronpk neat
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tantek just finished the Slate article - great job dangillmor
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tommorris CloudMade, the API I’m using for my checkins on tommorris.org is discontinuing their API service on May 1
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tantek dangillmor++
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barnabywalters tommorris: great! is that the venue searching?
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Loqi dangillmor has 3 karma
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aaronpk maybe that 'll be the thing that tips me over to actually start doing checkins on my site
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aaronpk dangillmor++
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Loqi dangillmor has 4 karma
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tommorris barnabywalters: yep. basically an API that lets you send off a lat-long and get back a list of venues.
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tommorris barnabywalters: I’ve had an internal test server running for a while that just does the UK.
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tommorris but this evening I’m going to import the whole world!
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barnabywalters tommorris: that’s so awesome — how large is the file?
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tommorris and I’m planning to make it so the API will be available to indiewebsters to help test and debug
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barnabywalters well I can test out Reykjavik
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tommorris barnabywalters: about 24Gb
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barnabywalters nice
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tommorris that 24Gb needs to basically run through my laptop and into the database
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tommorris the plan is the tooling I build around it will be open source so you can run your own location server.
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tommorris and get daily updates of the database
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tommorris or if you meet the simple criteria of (a) have your own domain that you post status-like updates to which POSSE to Twitter and (b) you nudge me on IRC, you’ll get a key to use my server. ;)
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bret dangillmor++
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Loqi dangillmor has 5 karma
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: browser extension to get fragmention would be awesome!
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@s_francoeur <3 the decentralizing-the-web ideas behind IndieWebCamp: "a people-focused alternative to the ‘corporate web’" https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/459752004081184770)
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@kevinmarks you can tell @dangillmor groks the #indieweb when he POSSEs his post http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ to @Slate http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html (twitter.com/_/status/459752010351255552)
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KevinMarks_ dangillmor++
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Loqi dangillmor has 6 karma
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@benwerd Why the #IndieWeb movement is so important, by @dangillmor: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ (twitter.com/_/status/459752623898259456)
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@nitot Great post by @dangillmor : Why the #IndieWeb movement is so important - http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/459754010824962048)
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@dascritch RT @nitot: Great post by @dangillmor : Why the #IndieWeb movement is so important - http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/459754392598880256)
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: yes! I think that would be great and help make the longer fragmention links we need to make this clearer
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@Johannes_Ernst RT @benwerd: Why the #IndieWeb movement is so important, by @dangillmor: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ (twitter.com/_/status/459754895826903041)
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JonathanNeal Cool, I will get to that.
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@indieboxproject RT @benwerd: Why the #IndieWeb movement is so important, by @dangillmor: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ (twitter.com/_/status/459754966366695424)
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal: are you special-casing + in fragmentions or is the browser decoding that?
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JonathanNeal KevinMarks_: special case, decoding is decodeURIComponent, then `+` plus as ` ` space.
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KevinMarks_ ah, OK
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KevinMarks_ shows how old I am, assuming + still meant space...
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JonathanNeal encoding is trim, encodeURI, then ` ` any space collapsed as single `+` pluses.
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JonathanNeal I think `+` plus already means ` ` space in other parts of the URL.
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kylewm silly question, is there a wiki page that has pros/cons of having the slug be part of the post “ID”?
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kylewm I looked on /permalink and /algorithmic
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@lzris RT @nitot: Great post by @dangillmor : Why the #IndieWeb movement is so important - http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/459760017827450880)
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@jeremyzilar An good explainer on how the #indieweb is changing the way communication happens between websites http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/459761942010535936)
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@lzris RT @nitot: Great post by @dangillmor : Why the #IndieWeb movement is so important - http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ via @benwerd (twitter.com/_/status/459762527858343936)
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kylewm ""“
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kylewm undo
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tantek kylewm we had a discussion a while ago in IRC but I'm not sure it was captured
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tantek about slugs being purely for human friendliness / search
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tantek rather than actually being any necessary part of the id
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tantek as they are human readable text, they should be human editable as well, to be more forgiving to authors/publishers that may wish to change them.
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tantek without having to worry about breaking anybody's permalinks
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tantek nor having to keep track of all previous slugs
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KevinMarks_ though it is amusing when journalists change the headline but the slug has the old one
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tommorris yep. especially if the old permaslug was insulting
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kylewm ha, that's true
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KevinMarks_ hm, so slugs are a but fragmentiony then
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KevinMarks_ eg http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003_02_01_archive.html#Googles+origins+hint+about+Blogger+future
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@t “gather to hack together tools aimed at liberating us … from centralized control” http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Vk1) (twitter.com/_/status/459768698933608448)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, slugs on my page are actually not necessary to do the lookup. I could actually use the slug as a fragmention input
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ben_thatmustbeme just random idea i though of
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KevinMarks_ which site was it that generated the H2 from the slug in the URL, so you could edit their headlines in links you sent to someone else?
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aaronpk whaaa cool
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ben_thatmustbeme that seems like it could be abusable is so many many ways
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KevinMarks_ I think they fixed it, this was a few years ago.
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aaronpk oh, accidentally? lol
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tantek yes - that was a bad design
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KevinMarks_ it was Slate or Salon or one of those sites
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@stevegillmor RT @kevinmarks: you can tell @dangillmor groks the #indieweb when he POSSEs his post http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ to @Slate http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html (twitter.com/_/status/459769487915380736)
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tantek you have a movement, not when you declare it yourself, but when other people say you do: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html
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@Borthwick RT @kevinmarks: you can tell @dangillmor groks the #indieweb when he POSSEs his post http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ to @Slate http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html (twitter.com/_/status/459770096668643328)
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+164) "Dan Gillmor's article" (view diff)
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tommorris It’s very disappointing that a lot of web fonts don’t provide small-caps variants.
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@erhanerdogan RT @t: “gather to hack together tools aimed at liberating us … from centralized control” http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Vk1) (twitter.com/_/status/459771793944117248)
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@t Writing & *doing*: @dangillmor post on his own site about #indieweb: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ and syndicates to Slate. (ttk.me t4Vk2) (twitter.com/_/status/459772054884335616)
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: or other variants, but that keeps them absurdly small in file size
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@dietrich RT @t: “gather to hack together tools aimed at liberating us … from centralized control” http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/04/25/indiewebcamps_create_tools_for_a_new_internet.html #indiewebcamp (ttk.me t4Vk1) (twitter.com/_/status/459772945330495490)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: dangillmor's post is a good example of backcompatibility stuff, if you are still thinking about that
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah I also have an example from jeremyzilar
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KartikPrabhu look at the third to last response: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog#responses
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KartikPrabhu it should be this http://silencematters.com/2014/04/24/indiewebcamp-nyc-2014/
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: you’ve got some UTF-8 issues on that page. "Tantek Çelik” :)
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tantek oh he knows :)
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KartikPrabhu yeah just fixed those last night :) and also in mf2py ;)
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kylewm did you see barnaby's response, btw?
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kylewm looks like there is a magic php incantation
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KartikPrabhu have to fix some datetime things too since tantek does not have timezone in his post published datetime
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@dangillmor Re IndieWeb tech, here's a piece that's more technical than mine but still pretty easy to understand http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/459774590349479936)
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@benwerd RT @dangillmor: Re IndieWeb tech, here's a piece that's more technical than mine but still pretty easy to understand http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/459774669759868928)
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tantek yes I need to fix timezone stuff on my end
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yes. but it seems that it is also some weird hack. and he seems to be doing it on an entity basis instead of document level
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: thanks. at work, we’ve been having all sorts of fun and games with Unicode and the strange theology of URIs vs. URLs vs. IRIs
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tommorris https://github.com/mitsuhiko/werkzeug/pull/517 for instance
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KartikPrabhu reconstruction of URL to IRI .... so confused. they all seem like the same thing to me
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KartikPrabhu dangillmor: thanks for the plug ;)
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dangillmor KartikPrabhu: well deserved.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: better fix that UTF8 bug now, with all the traffic that DanGillmor is sending you ;)
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KartikPrabhu oh! boy...
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KartikPrabhu that post has already gotten more traffic than anything else on my site
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KevinMarks_ barnaby's trick is a bit of voodoo really. It relies on PHP not representing encoding well
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KevinMarks_ encoding--
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Loqi encoding has -1 karma
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tommorris leakyabstractions--
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Loqi leakyabstractions has -1 karma
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KartikPrabhu it looked like a lot of voodoo. good voodoo
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tommorris given how much everything on the web is a hack on top of a hack, it’s astounding any of it works.
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KevinMarks_ it's a cheat so you can use an xml parser that doesn't grok unicode by munging the non-ascii chars into entities
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KevinMarks_ I suspect you may still have some "but it's HTML not XML" issues
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kylewm that was something i didn't quite understand, don't you have to decode it at least partially to read <meta charset=>?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: fixed UTF8 http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog#responses see last one. the trouble is since you don't have timezone. my code chokes and uses current time so your response is always the last one whenever I resubmit it :P
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KevinMarks_ hm, should do a 2048 for web spec versions
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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KevinMarks_ it's be like the nuclear fusion one where you end up on the wrong path of XML if you're not careful
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KartikPrabhu i play that on tile-colours alone now
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ben_thatmustbeme no, oh god no, no more 2048. i have a compulsion to try them all
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KevinMarks_ did you see the fusion one?
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KevinMarks_ that ruled
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu, I play color only now too thanks to that nutty numberwang one
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KevinMarks_ http://newbrict.github.io/Fe26/
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@Arty2 RT @t: Writing & *doing*: @dangillmor post on his own site about #indieweb: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ and syndicates to Slate. (ttk.me t4Vk2) (twitter.com/_/status/459777265585635329)
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: never understood the numberwang. but i guess you'd have to watch that show
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KartikPrabhu man! the fusion ones also have nuclear decay! brillaint... and harder :)
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ben_thatmustbeme I didn't watch it, but as far as rediculousness, it takes the cake
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i noticed that
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ben_thatmustbeme thank you KevinMarks_ You just killed hours more of my life.... I hate you
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KevinMarks_ watching the numberwang videos is worth it, there's youtube playlist
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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KevinMarks_ make sure you scroll down and read the fusion paths
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KevinMarks_ and look out for Magnesium
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KartikPrabhu yup! Mg is pretty bad
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KartikPrabhu stupid stable nucleus!
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@NateSavery RT @dangillmor: Re IndieWeb tech, here's a piece that's more technical than mine but still pretty easy to understand http://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog (twitter.com/_/status/459778197228638208)
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KartikPrabhu ok enough indiechat
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Loqi [mention] http://ben.thatmustbe.me/post/2014/4/25/2/openblog_devlopement_still_going linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: timezone is optional anyway
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tantek so your code *should* handle that *somehow*
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KartikPrabhu agreed: so it is a bug on my part :)
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tantek like assume UTC - and leave any error on the authors part
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KartikPrabhu you are good at breaking things :P
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KartikPrabhu ooo I have a Greek name in my responses list in Greek! looks rad!
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tantek right I need to fix my tz
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KartikPrabhu tantek: turns out might code handles no tz but it coughs up since you don't have seconds in the time!!
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@penartur RT @t: Writing & *doing*: @dangillmor post on his own site about #indieweb: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ and syndicates to Slate. (ttk.me t4Vk2) (twitter.com/_/status/459781452927102976)
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KartikPrabhu s/might/my
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: tantek: turns out my code handles no tz but it coughs up since you don't have seconds in the time!!
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KartikPrabhu is "2014-04-24T16:45" even a valid datetime string?
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tantek yes of course it is
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KartikPrabhu hmm weird! ok should not rely on regex magic so much
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tantek requiring seconds is a silly error on the part of Atom, W3CDATETIME and other specs which errantly force artificial precision
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tantek this is fixed in HTML5 :)
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tantek and thus, microformats
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KartikPrabhu aah I see. makes sense :)
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tantek we are simplifying and fixing specs of old one at a time
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KartikPrabhu so your posts are precise only to the minute
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tantek replacing backend plumbing-centric thinking with user/author/publisher-centric thinking
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KartikPrabhu agreed!
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KartikPrabhu I should stop agreeing so much since I was accused of promoting concurrence by Joschi Kuphal
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Loqi yea!
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KevinMarks_ given that actual posts take an hour to write, even minute precision is excessive
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: even for published date?
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KevinMarks_ I realised this when adding them by hand on my fragmentions posts
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kylewm you were accused of promoting concurrence in a visually appealing way at least
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KartikPrabhu lol sure! :)
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KartikPrabhu I'll take it since I am usually accused of not conforming. <sigh> you can never win!
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rascul <sigh> isn't a valid html tag
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KartikPrabhu well it should be!
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KartikPrabhu it will be with Web Components
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KevinMarks_ wondering if I should write another fragmention post after the whatwg bickering yesterday
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ben_thatmustbeme what? what whatwg bickering. I missed that
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KevinMarks_ though I think the browser plugins getting more featureful would argue this better than me ranting
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ben_thatmustbeme I really just wanted to start that message with what 3 times
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KevinMarks_ hehe
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KevinMarks_ JonathanNeal and I were talking fragmentions in there and fragmentions were accused of being insane, ugly, namespace thieves
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JonathanNeal nods
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KartikPrabhu ugly thieves are better than pretty ones
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ben_thatmustbeme hah
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KartikPrabhu take that Hollywood
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ben_thatmustbeme thats not really the response I would have expected, It seems like it would be pretty useful
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ben_thatmustbeme I used to love that the acrobat plugin had that functionality until they took it away
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ben_thatmustbeme i think there they used .pdf?q= or something like that. Seems like fragmention would be a much better way to standardize such things
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KevinMarks_ that list is people very committed to the structure of HTML - talking about the text throws them off
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KevinMarks_ it's like a blood/brain barrier or something
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JonathanNeal ## seems like a good idea. I’m not sold on # but I’m happy to have it in our experimental javascript in order to let people see the possibilities and make decisions for themselves.
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: regarding https://github.com/snarfed/webutil/blob/master/util.py#L251 I though ISO8601 timezones were for the form %hh:mm not %hhmm
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_ I now think ## gets us into redefinition of URL problems
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed. The single # seems to really start to conflict with things. A browser plugin that takes whatever is in ## and automatically does a "search in page" would be really nice
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KevinMarks_ whereas # is valid and safe
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KevinMarks_ as long as it has a space in
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KevinMarks_ though apparently my + assumption means it will clash as IDs can have + in and + means + in fragments
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kylewm you two just said the opposite things right? ^
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KevinMarks_ so that'll teach me
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KevinMarks_ they conflict in different ways
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hallettj KartikPrabhu: According to Wikipedia, both forms are acceptable in ISO 8601. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iso8601#Time_zone_designators
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KartikPrabhu hallettj: oh! man... tz is another nightmarish deep rabbit hole
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hallettj 8601 is my favorite ISO standard :)
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, we did, honestly, i'm open to either, I think if you look at it as wanted to reference exact point in text, #makes sense as you have to have at least one word to really find a unique spot. If you want to think of it as searching in a more traditional way ## with ++ for an offset I think makes more sense
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tantek concurrence? is that another word for interoperability?
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tantek ;)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: this about my accussation? that is what I thought too. but hey I shouldn't agree with you always, all the time ;)
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KevinMarks_ did you see kbs's hack of annotations?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you've disagreed and debated plenty of times here in IRC :)
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KartikPrabhu oo nope... show me
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tantek and we've all learned from the discussions
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tantek did not
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I know, but somehow that is not in the public eye, even though it is...
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KevinMarks_ https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/silly/test.html##Brennan+Novak(Brennan+is+bnvk+on+#indieweb+and+#mailpile)
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@t @zeldman @kottke @ginatrapani @ftrain @anildash Independent Web pioneers, join us this weekend: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (ttk.me t4Vk3) (twitter.com/_/status/459788033760722944)
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JonathanNeal kylewm: yes, there are two camps on ## and #. I really think ## removes a majority of conflict. KevinMarks_ may have expressed a good point about categorical versus statistical reasoning that leads to these differing opinions.
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JonathanNeal See, and there I just accidentally tried to make my point. It’s hard not to want to convince.
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: so the annotation is in the URL?
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KevinMarks_ yes, you can make it say anything on the page
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KartikPrabhu oh this is 'annotations' not 'micro-level comment'
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KevinMarks_ https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18852638/draft/silly/test.html##difficult+task(Indieweb+makes+difficult+tasks+easy)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: btw, concurrence is a natural result of participating in a community. after debate, we usually end up at an agreed on best answer - often better than what any one person comes up with.
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tantek and Twitter @-replying sucks for discussion.
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tantek IRC works much better
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KartikPrabhu yeah I was going to reply to Joschi with a post saying that, but I would have been too acrebic :)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: this is what I thought of annotations, before the word was commandeered to mean "frag-level comments"
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tantek you can turn it into a positive and ask him to join us in IRC
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KartikPrabhu yeah. I might do that over the weekend
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KartikPrabhu just need to be in a not foul mood ;)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/459788033760722944/459788926547664896 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
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KevinMarks_ KartikPrabhu: well, what we heard at the meeting was that there are lots of kinds, but cross document is more interesting than within document
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ben_thatmustbeme kbs++ That is pretty sweet!
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Loqi kbs has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: this is a neat idea for sure!
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KartikPrabhu is now wondering if someone sends such a webmention should it be posted as a comment?
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KevinMarks_ well, fragmentions+webmentions was where we started this
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KevinMarks_ 'cos you wanted per paragraph comments
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KartikPrabhu yup! I should really put up a test post. This weekend will hack around to getting that. Then I can work on the UI in the wild
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tantek KartikPrabhu - you could always implement future/scheduled posts, and write a draft for us to review here :)
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KartikPrabhu is taking on too mcuh for one weekend :P
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tantek e.g. here is how I hacked it up in Falcon: http://indiewebcamp.com/scheduling#Tantek
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KartikPrabhu tantek: but then I'll have to implement "draft" over the weekend :D
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tantek draft? just scheduled :D
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GWG is finally home
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tantek I have no distinction between draft/published
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tantek there is only the difference in dt-published
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tantek slap on a little UI to set the publication date in the future ;)
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tantek have everything else key off of that
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KartikPrabhu aah I see. neat idea. So your stream only shows posts from the 'past'
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KartikPrabhu ooh I should be able to do that easily! will have to remember to change RSS/Atom code to follow that
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KartikPrabhu last time I messed with my posts i broke my RSS/Atom by forgetting to update its backend
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/459788033760722944/459789945411223553 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
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@junglecode Indie Web Camp NYC! See you there? http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC (twitter.com/_/status/459792580717195265)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: exactly!
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tantek it was so little code it was amazing
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tantek and I author my dt-published by hand anyway so there was no additional work for the "UI"
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KartikPrabhu yeah my published can also be changed manually
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, I should add that, so easy.
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GWG I drove for several hours, and I'm back to doing web. I think I fixed the Youtube video embed not being responsive.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: neat... how? I tried real hard to do that once and failed
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GWG I found someone who had figured it out and stole their code?
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KartikPrabhu the best way! ;)
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@gRegorLove If you're interested in the #indieweb, there is a Chicago meeting every two weeks: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club Come join us! (twitter.com/_/status/459796428462620672)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: http://www.wpstuffs.com/youtube-videos-responsive-wordpress/
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GWG I just googled Youtube responsive wordpress
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GWG Works perfectly
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KartikPrabhu strange! I am surprised that CSS works.
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KartikPrabhu anyway will play with it. thanks :)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Check it out on http://tiny.n9n.us It is working.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/459788033760722944/459799463402283008 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
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GWG tantek: Where am I supposed to go tomorrow when I arrive at the times building?
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GWG It says details will be provided.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: interesting. My confusion is because the iframe element also has a width/height which I thought gets precedence over any other CSS rules.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: Also nice choice of video... and the theme is coming out really well!
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I googled Generic Video
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GWG And thank you
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, oh the generic video
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ben_thatmustbeme Dissolve.com, thank you for my trip to Niagara
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GWG More to do. I had to disable the comment form. It wasn't responsive. I need to fix that.
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: It's a beautiful place
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KartikPrabhu is this Disqus?
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GWG And there is gambling, if you like that sort of thaing
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Is what Disqus?
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KartikPrabhu oh ok! :) it is a commets-silo if you will
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KartikPrabhu s/commets/comments
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: oh ok! :) it is a comments-silo if you will
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GWG KartikPrabhu: The built in Wordpress comment form wasn't working for me. So I will write one.
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KartikPrabhu aah I see... cool!
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GWG I know you are anti-comment, and I'm not saying I'll use it, but you can't not have a comment form
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GWG In a theme
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KartikPrabhu oh that is a personal choice. I don't expect everyone to go with it :)
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GWG I also need to customize author pages, even though I plan on only having one author, category, date, and archive pages
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KartikPrabhu specially if you want the theme to be popular ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, getting ready to head home
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GWG KartikPrabhu: There is an author link I was playing with, but I have it set in CSS to display: none
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ben_thatmustbeme have a good weekend all
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KartikPrabhu okay, getting ready to arrange Happy Hour... have a good Indiewebcamp NYC.
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GWG There will likely be a few things I had by default.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Have fun. I'm off to rest for a few. Drives make me tired
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GWG Caught up on my podcasts though
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@t Boarded. See you soon New York City. #indiewebcamp Bloggers, blog, link to, pingback http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List to RSVP. (ttk.me t4Vk5) (twitter.com/_/status/459805099096039424)
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@jedahan RT @t: Boarded. See you soon New York City. #indiewebcamp Bloggers, blog, link to, pingback http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List to RSVP. (ttk.me t4Vk5) (twitter.com/_/status/459805282018033664)
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@am3thyst #indiewebcamp looks really cool. wish I knew ahead of time! (twitter.com/_/status/459806105062092800)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/459805099096039424/459805282018033664 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
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@jedahan @am3thyst #indiewebcamp is really cool - good people doing good work. I am trying to figure out how to fit it in this weekend too, so hard! (twitter.com/_/status/459816693603500032)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/459805099096039424/459816231802257408 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List (webmention)
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 2 hours, 45 minutes ago: regarding https://github.com/snarfed/webutil/blob/master/util.py#L251 I though ISO8601 timezones were for the form %hh:mm not %hhmm
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snarfed !tell KartikPrabhu good eye! looks like the code is right and just the comment is wrong. fixing now.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@wraithgar Decided I should own my snippets too #indieweb http://artifice.danger.computer/paqowunopa.vala (twitter.com/_/status/459838530932326400)