#indiewebcamp 2014-05-04

2014-05-04 UTC
paulcp, niven and KevinMarks joined the channel
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GWG
Still trying to decide what to do about Bridgy. Still can't get Facebook to work, and I'm not sure how I can pull back the Syndication URLs.
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kbs
/ /cc snarfed? :)
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snarfed
GWG: this is bridgy publish? or listen?
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snarfed
i think i saw at least one publish go through for you
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snarfed
have you tried jetpack publicize or mailchimp social?
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GWG
snarfed: I was using Nextscript SNAP
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snarfed
ah sure!
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GWG
It worked fine for Facebook, but kept truncating my tweets
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GWG
Jetpack Publicize wasn't customizable, from what I could see
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snarfed
i don't have a lot of experience w/any of them
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snarfed
but definitely let me know if you have any specific bridgy q's
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GWG
snarfed: I was trying to switch to Bridgy for publishing.
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GWG
snarfed: But none of the Facebook posts went through. I ended up manually posting them.
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snarfed
you're right, bridgy publish fails fb a lot :/
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snarfed
twitter is consistent though
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snarfed
hmm, i'm sure i saw at least one go through
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GWG
I'll check
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snarfed
ah, it was a tweet, not fb
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snarfed
yeah, so frustrating. exact same code with a different fb app key can publish to fb fine
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snarfed
sorry for the trouble :(
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GWG
Trouble?
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GWG
No solution is 100%
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GWG
My goal in mentioning it is offering to test if you ever think there is a solution.
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snarfed
well, this solution is close to 0% :/
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snarfed
thanks for the offer, i'll definitely let you know
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GWG
The other question was that if I publish with Brid.gy, how do I get the syndication URL back?
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snarfed
good question, the response is json and has a url field. https://www.brid.gy/about#response
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GWG
Have to figure out how to get Wordpress to process that info into a post-meta field.
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snarfed
true! you'll probably need to patch pfefferle's wordpress-webmention plugin, since it gets the response
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GWG
patch or extend.
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GWG
Can you get the response again separately?
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GWG
If I posted source as the post, and target as publish/___ would it return the json again?
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snarfed
i think so, yes
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snarfed
looking
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snarfed
oh, no, it complains, since the expected behavior is to update the published post, and it doesn't support that yet
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GWG
So, I have to look at the Wordpress webmention code and propose it store the data somewhere
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snarfed
that's the right way to do it, yeah
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snarfed
if you really don't want to handle the response, you could scrape your bridgy user page, follow the log link, and extract it from there
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snarfed
horrible hack, but it'd work
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GWG
What I'm trying to figure out is a proposed design
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GWG
It shouldn't be Bridgy specific
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GWG
What other use case is caching the webmention response in post-meta-data
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snarfed
eh, there's no standard for webmention response format yet
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snarfed
er, throughout that page
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GWG
Then it seems bad to propose it be in the webmention plugin without some clearer goal
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snarfed
nah, storing the response is totally reasonable and generic
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snarfed
and then your theme or separate plugin would handle it
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snarfed
also, non-bridgy-publish webmentions wouldn't return syndication urls anyway, since they're not creating syndicated copies, so special casing bridgy is reasonable for that case
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GWG
I'm starting by noting it as an 'issue' in the plugin. See if I can figure it out. Parsing is a weak point of mine.
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kylewm
GWG: you get error 500's from bridgy publish to facebook too? cc: snarfed
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snarfed
yeah, sad. clearly it's specific to the bridgy fb app id if your instance worked ok, kylewm
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GWG
kylewm: Yes, I do.
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snarfed
(and my 'bridgy local' app id)
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kylewm
interesting. relieved it's not just me :-)
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GWG
I've filed an issue against the Webmention Wordpress plugin
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GWG
kylewm: I've gone back to SNAP for now
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GWG
I had this idea of an unofficial Bridgy plugin
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kylewm
what would it do?
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GWG
1. Add checkboxes to add in the link to the endpoint.
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GWG
2. Create special post types that will format the content editor for replies, rsvps, etc.
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kylewm
ohh a Wordpress plugin for Bridgy users?
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GWG
kylewm: That was the idea.
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kylewm
got it, I misunderstood at first
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GWG
It wouldn't be purely for Bridgy. The automatic marking up would work for more than Bridgy.
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GWG
It shouldn't be incredibly hard to add options to the Wordpress post editor.
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kylewm
sounds cool
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: how much thought have you given to backcompat stuff for mf2py?
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GWG
For now, I think I'll go with the simple option
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kylewm
GWG: I've been thinking it would be cool to somehow replace the bri.dgy/publish links with u-syndication links after webmentions are sent
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GWG
Yes, but what about updates?
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snarfed
right, ideally you'd add the syndication urls and keep the publish links too
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snarfed
but that will only matter after bridgy actually supports updating :P
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GWG
Well, why design something that needs to be fixed later?
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kylewm
!tell KartikPrabhu I'm thinking about porting backward compatibility stuff from php-mf2 to mf2py, let me know if you've already started or have thoughts about how it should be done!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed
GWG: everything will need to be fixed later
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snarfed
many times
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snarfed
gotta start somewhere!
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@IdentityWoman
. @aral Reference sources and inspiration. IndieWeb efforts and many others deserve credit eg/ http://asn.planetwork.net http://www.1962paper.org/web.html
(twitter.com/_/status/462784560992768002)
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GWG
I'm still annoyed Wordpress took out the link class box in their TInyMCE editor.
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GWG
So, I've overloaded the Link Post Format as a Reply-To. But that is only a half-solution.
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GWG
The only solution is Custom Post Types, which is what I thought. Oh, well.
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david.shanske.com
edited /WordPress (+845) "/* Working On */"
(view diff)
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GWG
Hmm...I think I found my explanation.
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GWG
You can put a default styling into the plugin to use if the theme doesn't have support.
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JonathanNeal
If you’re up and want to test the konami code right now http://www.chapman.edu/index.aspx
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aaronpk
cheat code: #join-the-pete-side
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aaronpk
I don't know how to attack
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aaronpk
space bar doesn't seem to do anything
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aaronpk
also i figured out how to moonwalk
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aaronpk
lol this is ridiculous. i'm done
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JonathanNeal
aaronpk: you didn’t kill anyone with the space bar?
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aaronpk
i think I did a couple times
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aaronpk
if you refresh the page you get all your lives back
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JonathanNeal
nice. Well, thanks. It’s super buggy, but a fun idea.
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aaronpk
i'm super upset at myself that I somehow managed to lose a year's worth of photos I took with my flip phone in 2007
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aaronpk
i had published them on my site in a neat calendar view
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kyank
Bummer, aaronpk.
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aaronpk
i feel like i have to go through a period of mourning for this
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aaronpk
i've searched through my old backups of backups of old servers, but it's not turning up anywhere
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aaronpk
I took a photo of myself every day with my flip phone camera in a situation that was unique to that day
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aaronpk
and i had a web page on aaronparecki.com that showed all the photos in a calendar view
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KartikPrabhu
!tell kylewm: the way mf2py does backcompatibility stuff is to just look for old classes and add new ones. I don't know a better way to do it. Porting the way php-mf2 does it would be a good start
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 4 hours, 46 minutes ago: I'm thinking about porting backward compatibility stuff from php-mf2 to mf2py, let me know if you've already started or have thoughts about how it should be done!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
of course I realize the irony here
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aaronpk
I literally lost my own data
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KartikPrabhu
ironically losing your data is the worst way to doit
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pdurbin
bummer. :( I've definitely heard it argued that Facebook, Google, and other big companies are better keepers of data (including backups, etc.) than the average computer user.
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kyank
aaronpk: Assume you’ve had a trawl through http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://aaronparecki.com ?
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pdurbin
"Centralization of data and computation (aka power) is a recent phenomenon. It doesn't have to be so
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Loqi
[@cemerick] Centralization of data and computation (aka power) is a recent phenomenon. It doesn't have to be so
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Loqi
people are working on change. #TtW14 (http://twtr.io/kcu1yEh0tL)
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pdurbin
sounds like it'll be open source too. I assume at https://github.com/quiltproject
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kyank
!tell aaronpk The Web Archive might have your lost photos: http://web.archive.org/web/20070629144120/http://www.aaronparecki.com/photos/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
barnabywalters: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 5/3 at 1:14pm: does php-mf2 implement the full value-class-pattern parsing or only the plain text part? Using a data element with value attribute does not seem to work. ref: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing
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barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: good question
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barnabywalters
(moving this discussion to #microformats)
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GWG
bangs head against desk
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GWG
I've found a good reason to leave data in a silo.
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kylewm
has anyone written a plugin/bookmarklet to show you if the current page has webmentions/microformats/pingbacks/etc.?
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Loqi
kylewm: KartikPrabhu left you a message 8 hours, 4 minutes ago: the way mf2py does backcompatibility stuff is to just look for old classes and add new ones. I don't know a better way to do it. Porting the way php-mf2 does it would be a good start
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kylewm
!tell KartikPrabhu thanks! follow up in #microformats http://logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=today#c71614a
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
Hello, kylewm.
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GWG
kylewm: That note you posted last night. I wish you hadn't.
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kylewm
morning GWG. the note about importing old stuff?
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GWG
Yes
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kylewm
lol, yes apparently
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GWG
I saw it and said... good idea.
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GWG
It was not a good idea
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GWG
Or rather...not realizing it would autopost as new was a stupid thing
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GWG
I'm feeling some things should stay in their silos.
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kylewm
ha, I know what you mean. At least until we have proper privacy controls on our sites
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GWG
Like how frustrated I felt for a while in 2005
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GWG
Oh, well.
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GWG
Out there now
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GWG
I may have killed the Facebook and Twitter versions, and unpublished the web versions.
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GWG
But nothing dies.
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GWG
I even logged into my mother's email account, where she gets Facebook notices and deleted them all.
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GWG
And even she still saw them
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GWG
I'm mentioning this because this may be an indieweb conversation
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GWG
When Syndication Fails
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kylewm
yes, maybe a good argument for manual syndication
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kylewm
wow, facebook sending notifications to my mom about early 00's livejournal posts is a nightmare I never even considered ;)
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aaronpk
kyank: thanks but that's actually a different old set of photos (which is still online at a different URL)
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Loqi
aaronpk: kyank left you a message 2 hours, 23 minutes ago: The Web Archive might have your lost photos: http://web.archive.org/web/20070629144120/http://www.aaronparecki.com/photos/
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aaronpk
the project was called "phlog" (like blog and vlog but for photos, get it?)
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aaronpk
(i'm terrible at naming things)
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aaronpk
I'd take a photo with the front-facing camera of my flip phone, and the front (color) LCD screen was enough to crop a selfie and make it look nice
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aaronpk
then I'd MMS the photo to an email address that routed to my server and it posted it on my site
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kbs
ugh, sorry to hear that
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kbs
(loss of photos, in case that wasn't clear...)
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snarfed
so, webmention question. if a post includes a URL in plain text, but not linked…does that warrant sending a webmention to that URL?
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snarfed
i expect most targets check for an actual link, not just text, so they'd reject it. but still…?
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voxpelli
snarfed: I would say no. If the sender can identify it as a URL then it should also link it
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snarfed
eh, but they may intentionally choose not to
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snarfed
e.g. urls in code snippets
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kbs
essentially, no longer requiring webmentions to originate from text/html content :)
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kbs
begins to wonder about jpeg files and whatnot
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voxpelli
snarfed: URL:s in code snippets can be links and if they after all feel it shouldn't be a link then I can't see why it would be a mention
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snarfed
voxpelli: yeah, that makes sense
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snarfed
kbs: OCR all the things!
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kbs
snarfed: :) in some ideal world, I like your idea of permitting any "understandable" content to be webmentioned
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kbs
though (as you indicated) having everyone parse such content might be the stumbling block. I guess with bridgy, you already have the ability to convert any content to a html page anyway, so...
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snarfed
heh. silo posts are a far cry from "any content," but i appreciate the spirit
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kylewm
datapoint: in the status.net world, people intentionally escape periods to prevent urls from being linkified
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kylewm
which makes me think there is some intentionality in including a url that is not a link
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snarfed
yeah, i've done it before for API endpoint URLs that don't show anything useful when you GET them
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snarfed
but to voxpelli's point, it's a really specific narrow case, so meh
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kbs
apropos of nothing at all, does setting target=data:text/html,... in a webmention actually work? [vaguely related to http://werd.io/2014/im-thinking-about-adding-comments-what-do-you-like-indieweb and the bar to add comments]
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snarfed
oh wow, interesting idea
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snarfed
i highly doubt it, since i don't expect any current implementations support data: uris
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kbs
ah well :)
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snarfed
i'd love to see one that does!
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kbs
is still too chicken to add content automatically to anything
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GWG
kbs: Good move
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kbs
I archive locally quite a lot though -- sort of ESSOPing I guess
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GWG
Nothing recent on the site though.
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kbs
my site you mean? yea - I rarely publish anything, mostly just pull things from facebook, flickr etc and archive locally. Mostly my friends/family stuff
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kbs
Avoids the (for me) trauma of dealing with facebook, and lets me enjoy the pictures and things peacefully offline
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kbs
's notion of identity and indie is a bit weird :)
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GWG
kbs: I have some things I want to explore with that.
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kbs
cool, as am I - be great to exchange notes and ideas. I'm much happier archiving things on storage that I own
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kbs
and don't have a great desire (yet?) to publish things publicly, though I do have a few things that publish things privately to my circle of friends etc
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kylewm
lol, what does ESSOP stand for?
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GWG
The opposite of POSSE?
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kbs
dunno :) what GWG said - the backwards flow of POSSE - I pull content from silos my friends publish, locally to me
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kylewm
PETAL: publish elsewhere then archive locally
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GWG
This is an interesting question though
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GWG
Has any in the indieweb movement talked about limiting your posts to a subset of the community?
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kbs
heh :) it's also stuff that I don't publish myself
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GWG
Indieweb posts are public by default
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kbs
yes - aaronpk has been working on this quite a bit (as have I, but with a different angle.) *looks at urls*
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kbs
stuff I'm personally interested in is roughly at http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp#Private.2C_Transient.2C_Async_Messaging
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GWG
The thing is that people want to silo certain things. Not in a corporate silo, but as in insulating it
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kbs
right - I think you could ping aaronpk and also maybe the /indieweb-messaging page for (acl-type) access control - it would fit the bill for a lot of needs i think
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GWG
For me, I follow the thought that anything I post is public.
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kylewm
GWG, I know for example that aaronpk can post private messages on his site, and the intended recipient will only see them if they are logged in with their url
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Loqi
woot
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GWG
kylewm: I have other things to do first.
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kylewm
I'm surprised wordpress doesn't have privacy tools already?
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GWG
It does.
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GWG
You can have private/password protected posts
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GWG
I've never used them
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GWG
But, I want to play with photo-sharing more.
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kbs
having played with photo sharing for longer than I care to admit :) save/archive photos locally - it's the least worst way to protect 'em
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GWG
I have a service, but I also keep a local copy.
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GWG
A paid service.
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kbs
of other people's photos as well? nice
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GWG
Of mine.
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GWG
Why do I need other people's photos?
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GWG
I suppose if I wanted them, I'd add them too
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kbs
perhaps because of my intrinsically boring nature, I find pictures of my friends and family much more interesting than mine :)
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kbs
it's also tied in with what 'identity' means, philosophically...
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GWG
kbs: I rarely appear in any picture
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GWG
I prefer to be taking them.
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kbs
nods
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GWG
I like photography
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kbs
if my buddy takes pictures during a joint hiking trip - I still want to have a copy of pictures of the trip - the memories I have are about the trip, less about who took them
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GWG
kbs: I might do that if I thought it was relevant to me
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kbs
right - more about why most of the pics I found interesting tend to be taken by, and of other people I guess...
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kbs
ends up treats most online services as a transient message-passing system :) grab the data as quickly as it's available!
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kbs
*treating
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GWG
I've been studying this.
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GWG
Most people do not seem to want to provide insightful dialogue responses.
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GWG
The bulk of my responses are them clicking a button.
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GWG
What does "like" really mean?
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kbs
yea, I see what you mean... I don't archive anything other than pictures [and emails] - the likes are just line-noise pretty much
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kbs
though I'm starting to think that maybe I should archive comments. [I also don't really draw a distinction between comments on 'my' pictures and pictures shared with 'me']
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kbs
waves hands wildly trying to make some esoteric point, and then stops sheepishly :)
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GWG
"Like" seems to indicate..."I Saw This"
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GWG
I'd like to see more Reposts
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GWG
Or replies
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kbs
interesting - think (because of my notion of my identity formed out of interactions with people) I see lots of reposts and replies - just not around content that I've initially created...
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GWG
Well, I've been working on comment I've initially created, but next I do have to start working on responding to others
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kbs
oh, gotcha :) sorry, head was somewhere else
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aaronpk
GWG: kylewm: yeah my posts can have an ACL on them so only the intended recipients can see them
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aaronpk
when the ACL indicates only one other person that's basically a private message. but it supports multiple recipients too.
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aaronpk
i think I shared a map of myself arriving in real time to tantek and barnaby a few months ago
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GWG
What would anyone else see?
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aaronpk
"You must be signed in to view this content."
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aaronpk
and it doesn't show up in any lists
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GWG
I figured.
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GWG
Not there yet though.
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aaronpk
I also want to be able to specify the ACL of a post by linking to a URL that has a bunch of h-cards
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aaronpk
so I could write a post that was visible to all the indieweb people by specifying the group as http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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GWG
My next projects would be: Photos/Images and Custom Post Types in Wordpress
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GWG
I need to figure out the types/taxonomies.
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GWG
And it is not just a schema issue. Once you have the schema and have implemented it, you need to implement the posting UI, then the default theming UI
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GWG
I've been reading up on best practices for such a design and it would be a big project. Hoping to find someone to help me...not with the coding exactly, but with the schema.
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aaronpk
I did this for bookmarks
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aaronpk
that's the custom post type, and here is the theme https://github.com/aaronpk/Twenty-Links
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GWG
aaronpk: I'm looking for post types like "Reply", "Event/RSVP" that would make entering that easier.
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GWG
I need to sit down, design it, and get some feedback before implementing it
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aaronpk
ah cool
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GWG
aaronpk: I'll likely write up a page somewhere and post it in here for feedback. Even non-Wordpress people might have ideas on a post UI
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aaronpk
great!
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snarfed
kylewm: soft launched blog providers on bridgy, feel free to retry your wp.com account
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kylewm
snarfed: cool!
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snarfed
expect very rough edges
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snarfed
still looking for how to add the rel-webmention link to a wp.com blog
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kylewm
snarfed: not totally unrelated, I was working on backward compatibility stuff for mf2py last night
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snarfed
i saw! publish users will like that
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kylewm
a lot of blogger and wordpress themes seem to have mf1 markup
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kylewm
cool :)
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kylewm
so it's possible to comment on my site now from wordpress.com, but the comment is super ugly
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aaronpk
I was able to add this to the "First Footer Widget Area" on my wordpress.com blog <a href="https://webmention.io/aaronpk/webmention" rel="webmention"></a>
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aaronpk
adding <link href="https://webmention.io/aaronpk/webmention" rel="webmention"/> made wordpress escape it thinking I wanted it to be text
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aaronpk
oh weird that actually breaks wordpress.com
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snarfed
aaronpk: yeah, i tried the same thing :/
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aaronpk
but the a tag works!
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snarfed
kylewm: whoa, agreed, that is ugly. right now you'll need to hand-author mf2 inside the wp.com post, e.g. e-content
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snarfed
aaronpk: huh, trying now
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kylewm
huh, atm that would give me an e-content inside an e-content (entry-content is augmented with e-content by the backcompat converter)
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kylewm
snarfed: what does rel="webmention" on a wordpress.com blog give you, in terms of bridgy?
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snarfed
kylewm: incoming webmention support
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snarfed
they're posted as comments
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kylewm
oohhh, got it. i was confused. that's kind of the whole point right?
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snarfed
yup! both directions
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snarfed
kylewm: if you want to try it, you'll want this in a text widget: <link rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress">
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snarfed
aaronpk: sadly i don't know that many (any?) current webmention discovery implementations support normal links :/
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snarfed
we can add that though
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kylewm
huh, wp.com strips out that link tag in a text widget
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kylewm
is that what you were saying was the problem?
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snarfed
think so. same here
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@benwerd
Also: booking flights & hotel for #indiewebcamp Portland today. Hotel recommendations would be very welcome.
(twitter.com/_/status/463018567240130560)
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GWG
kylewm: You got a minute?
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kylewm
snarfed: aaronpk: any reason not to push for rel='webmention' to be allowed in <a>'s?
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voxpelli
kylewm: only one I can think of is that if a user would click that link then they are likely to not receive any proper response, as the endpoint is purely meant for machines
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voxpelli
That's easy to circumvent though and a nice instruction page response could actually help discoverability of webmention support
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GWG
voxpelli: Flattr, huh?
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kylewm
voxpelli: great point, I had been wondering what the criteria was for <link>-only vs <link> or <a> rel values on the microformats wiki
#
voxpelli
GWG: I worked there, yeah
#
GWG
voxpelli: It was the first thing I recognized.
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snarfed
easy to make them invisible, e.g. <a href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress" rel="webmention"></a>
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GWG
snarfed: For some reason, the Wordpress editor removes empty links.
#
voxpelli
snarfed: feels a bit dirty though, much better if it can be visible as that's what a-tags are for
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snarfed
GWG: maybe so, but not in text widgets, and you're not going to be putting this one in every post
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snarfed
just somewhere once, like a menu or widget
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snarfed
voxpelli: eh, i think that's kinda subjective
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tantek
Back in PDT!
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Loqi
tantek: bnvk left you a message 1 day, 6 hours ago: really great slide show, especially love the matrix silo images ;)
#
tantek
Thanks bnvk!
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voxpelli
snarfed: eg the microformats community has generally disliked hidden content at least: http://microformats.org/wiki/faq#Hidden_Content
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snarfed
voxpelli: true! and i respectfully disagree. but that's just me :P
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snarfed
this is a perfect example. webmention discovery links in <link>s and http headers are invisible. seems odd that they should have to be visible just because put them in an a tag
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voxpelli
snarfed: if they can be visible, any reason they shouldn't be? :)
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snarfed
personal preference. we all style our sites differently, right?
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voxpelli
I also think that generally eg screen readers and such can have issues with it, see eg: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10504544/is-it-ok-to-have-an-empty-anchor-tag
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snarfed
for links that are actual UX, sure. the rel attribute also helps there. this wouldn't be UX, though.
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snarfed
not a big deal either way though. the more important part is putting it in the webmention spec. i'll send a PR to do that soon
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voxpelli
I like the idea of an a-tag anyhow
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snarfed
so far seems necessary for wordpress.com
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voxpelli
I've made a note about adding a nice page to my endpoint for those who click through so that also visible links works :)
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snarfed
good call!
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voxpelli
aaronpk: nice!
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aaronpk
minimal, but gets the job done
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aaronpk
better than a weird error page
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tantek
snarfed, voxpelli webmention link discovery is like a link to a stylesheet. It's basically machine only. There's no actual user data there.
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aaronpk
tantek: we were talkinga bout adding a rel webmention link to wordpress.com blogs
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aaronpk
there's a way to add "custom html" but it turns out they strip <link> tags
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aaronpk
but <a href="" rel="webmention"></a> works
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tantek
Aaronpk I like your visible endpoint that teaches!
#
tantek
That's a great way to do it.
#
tantek
Any chance of putting up a similar page for webmention.io's endpoint?
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aaronpk
ha good idea
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tantek
I might even put a link like a "this blog <a rel=webmention>supports webmention</a>" in my sidebar or footer.
#
tantek
Which then makes it useful for both humans and machines!
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aaronpk
ohh that's a great way of doing it
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tantek
Which is much better than machines only.
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tantek
Plus it helps educate folks about indieweb tech.
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aaronpk
yeah I'd totally add that to my footer too
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GWG
aaronpk: I would too. Along with the Analytics disclosure that Jeremy Zilar was showing and we were discussion at Indiewebcamp NYC
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GWG
http://silencematters.com/ - In the lower left.
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aaronpk
oh interesting
#
aaronpk
that's probably a good idea
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aaronpk
we need a page about that :)
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GWG
What do you call that? Disclosures?
#
GWG
Disclaimers?
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KartikPrabhu
disclosures is better
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 5 hours, 10 minutes ago: thanks! follow up in #microformats http://logs.glob.uno/?c=freenode%23microformats&s=today#c71614a
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KartikPrabhu
yeah Loqi got that :P
#
Loqi
grins profusely
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GWG
aaronpk: The Analytics thing was the subject of some debate in the room.
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aaronpk
+1 for disclosures
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GWG
How about colophon?
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GWG
Too esoteric?
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aaronpk
are there many notes from that discussion from NYC?
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GWG
Tantek was taking notes and posting them
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GWG
I can tell you what I remember about it.
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aaronpk
GWG: sure!
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GWG
Jeremy showed us that.
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GWG
Several of us at the table commented on it.
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GWG
I remember commenting on the issue of proper disclosure and referring to the EU Cookie Policy that pops up on European sites.
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GWG
The basic question that I was focusing on was how do you disclose without being intrusive and without being too subtle.
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aaronpk
!tell tantek do you think it would be worth going to IIW for just Tuesday? I *might* be able to sneak out for a day to do that
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
Note /disclosure is already there. When in doubt, search for it on the wiki.
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Loqi
tantek: aaronpk left you a message 10 minutes ago: do you think it would be worth going to IIW for just Tuesday? I *might* be able to sneak out for a day to do that
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tantek
Depends on your goals ;)
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aaronpk
!! it's already there wow
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aaronpk
i need to read the wiki more...
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tantek
Who here is going to IIW and for what purpose(s)?
#
tantek
Aaronpk read recent changes more
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tantek
Especially New pages
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aaronpk
i need to make a nicer formatted version of it, it's kinda ugly
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GWG
tantek: You still down under?
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aaronpk
there's a way to show just new pages?
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tantek
Gwg nope. See ^^^%
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aaronpk
well I think it would be interesting to hear feedback on indieauth as it's been evolving and turning into a lot like openid connect
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GWG
tantek: Where in the world today?
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tantek
Almost home :)
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aaronpk
not sure if any of the openid people will be there
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tantek
aaronpk: Feedback good. Just don't let the open is connect folks distract you with their enterprise plumbing focused ways, framing, mindsets.
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aaronpk
heh yeah
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aaronpk
I think I am somewhat reslient to that now given that I am seeing enterprise first hand now
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tantek
Ever been to IIW?
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aaronpk
don't think so
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tantek
aaronpk: Do not underestimate the dark side of protocols standards work.
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tantek
Then IIW would be good for you, just so you can witness (and document!) so many anti-patterns in person.
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tantek
It's like an entire anti-pattern community.
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tantek
See if you can go and come out with your principles unscathed by groupthink pressures. I should say group talk, since rarely does that crowd actually ship anything.
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aaronpk
lol sounds like a good exercise
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aaronpk
I've also been struggling a lot this weekend trying to see if OpenID Connect really is just the same thing
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tantek
No users actually bother with oidconnect
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aaronpk
google is all openid connect tho
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tantek
It's a google enterprisey thing which even they don't care about in actual products.
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tantek
They just get everyone to use g+ sign in
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aaronpk
yeah g+ signin is all openid connect
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tantek
It's open-washing (like green washing)
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tantek
No it's not. You can't use a different provider to sign in and use google services.
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aaronpk
the thing I did notice reading the spec is that it too is somewhat under-specified, just like OAuth 2
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aaronpk
which is why G+ can call it openid connect and yet no other implementaitons can interoperate
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tantek
Of course. So they slap proprietary stuff on top. And only theirs works with their services.
#
tantek
Hence open-washing, not open.
#
tantek
So yeah, it's a classic Google "standards" antipattern.
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /Events (+8) "/* Upcoming */ comment out esripdx"
(view diff)
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tantek
No hwc at esri this week?
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aaronpk
not this week! esripdx office warming party on wednesday night!
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GWG
tantek: Depressing, isn't it? And I like Google.
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tantek-ipod
GWG: Not depressing. Just consistent. Silos don't care about federation. They lack the incentive.
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GWG
tantek: I'm still annoyed they are turning off XMPP
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: yeah the whole XMPP thing is a bad move
#
GWG
KartikPrabhu: I fear one day...no Pidgin
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KartikPrabhu
yeah I use Pidgin all the time like right now
#
GWG
I'm not against webclients, but Google doesn't offer a multi-account Hangout client that I can pop out of the browser
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aaronpk
ok i got my flight to SFO
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aaronpk
also particularly ironic that *this* is how delta implemented "add to google calendar" https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7405/14084838076_bf959e2dcc_o.png
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GWG
That is not good
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aaronpk
no, not at all
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aaronpk
also google is so smart to pull out my flight details and show it in the top of the email, but doesn't give me an option to add to my calendar
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aaronpk
come on guys
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tantek
yeah, seriously, what's with the CamelCasing of UserName?!? ;)
#
tantek
aaronpk - just goes to show that kind of stuff "pull out my flight details and show it in the top of the email" is just a half-assed zero-follow-up hack.
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aaronpk
that ticket cost me $5 yay frequent flier miles
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tantek
we've been naming and shaming this practice for years ;)
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aaronpk
hahaha
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tantek.com
edited /monoculture (+135) "/* Blog posts */ add Github monoculture blog post, format a bit better"
(view diff)
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tantek
holy crap $257 for IIW *one day*?!?
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aaronpk
yeah that seems steep
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aaronpk
i'm glad they at least have somewhat reasonable student pricing
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tantek
smells like profiteering
#
tantek
or enterprise
#
tantek
looks like benwerd and erinjo are going to be there too - so you won't be alone aaronpk.
#
tantek
maybe see if you can carpool with them?
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tantek
I vaguely remember Benwerd saying he will be demoing idno
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GWG
I need to find more conferences like Indiewebcamp
#
GWG
Good fun, free food...
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GWG
No $200 fee
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tantek
GWG - that's how you know we're not messing around
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GWG
tantek: If there is or isn't a fee?
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tantek
productive conferences use proof-of-work as a barrier to entry, not entrance fees.
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GWG
tantek: I was thinking of Wordcamp maybe
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GWG
$40 is reasonable to cover the venue
#
tantek
the higher the fee, the higher the density of "enterprise" folks who will trade $ for getting to hang out with people more knowledgable than them
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tantek
IIW should pay IndieWeb people to attend.
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GWG
tantek: Good point
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GWG
Probably not going to happen though
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tantek
I'm hoping that the IndieWeb folks that are going can document all the anti-patterns they see
#
tantek
and then we can call for it afterwards
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aaronpk
looks like it'll be benwerd, erinjo, j12t and myself?
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tantek
GWG, or we could add a "no personal domain" option to attending IndieWebCamp that costs as much as the fee to attend IIW.
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aaronpk
hahahahaha
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tantek
sorry, a "no personal domain indieauth" option, to be clear.
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tantek
if they have a personal domain but can't be bothered to setup indieauth, then they can pay.
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aaronpk
tantek: speaking of indieauth, i'm curious to hear your thoughts on this
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aaronpk
the most simple setup instructions may need to change soon
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tantek
really? more than just relmeauth instructions?
#
tantek
you have an idea for making it simpler?
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aaronpk
in addition to the rel=me links, you will need to delegate to an indieauth server
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aaronpk
otherwise every client relies on indieauth.com
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aaronpk
and then it's not really decentralized
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tantek
no - every client just does the indieauth algorithm
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aaronpk
alternatively, the indieauth spec could say that if no authorization endpoint is defined by the user signing in, the client gets to choose
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tantek
has nothing to do with indieauth.com
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tantek
that's never been a requirement
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aaronpk
but in practice it's what's happened
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tantek
do you have that documented somewhere?
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tantek
the "in practice" that you speak of?
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aaronpk
it's been mentioned a few times in IRC, and may be on github, let me check
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tantek
e.g. my site does not use indieauth.com to auth-in
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tantek
the way I see it, unless it's been documented on the wiki, it's not really worth of the label "in practice"
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tantek
it's just "talk" ;)
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tantek
basically, this is the closest we have to a list of implementations of relmeauth right now: http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth#open_source_implementations
#
tantek
do you have something more thorough?
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aaronpk
ok then more specifically, the problem people are seeing is that the wiki right now relies on indieauth.com, rather than individual people delegating to indieauth.com
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tantek
why is that a problem?
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tantek
sites would "normally" just use their own indieauth/relmeauth library to do the auth themselves.
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tantek
using a 3rd party service is just a shim for that
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aaronpk
wait you're right
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aaronpk
what the heck
#
tantek
exactly
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tantek
you need to pushback against these people
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tantek
their complaint is BS
#
tantek
I'm going to pushback on any additional publisher requirements or even requests
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tantek
unless there is a very well documented use-case that it solves
#
tantek
identity setup is hard enough already
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tantek
the openid people went down this path of arbitrary extensibility / delegation and see where it got them
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tantek
without well documented use-case(s), it's architecture astronomy
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aaronpk
ok here is an example of a limitation
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tantek
forget limitation - answer the question "what's the use case? what user feature are you trying to enable?"
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aaronpk
i'll get there
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tantek
I'd rather start there
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aaronpk
the wiki uses indieauth.com as the implementation, which has support for twitter.com and github.com logins
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aaronpk
user bob.com wants to sign in to the wiki but doesn't have a twitter or github account
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aaronpk
the only way for bob.com to sign in is to sign up for twitter or github
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aaronpk
that is the current state of things, which is not necessarily ideal although works out fine in practice because indieauth.com implements enough auth providers that people usually have an account there
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tantek
what's bob linking rel=me to instead?
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tantek
right, in practice it's fine
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aaronpk
say bob.com links to linkedin and facebook
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tantek
let me know when someone has a real world example of a personal site that rel=me to a site that indieauth.com does not support
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tantek
forgot "say … links to" - show me a real world example
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tantek
if there are zero people this impacts, it's not worth the effort
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tantek
until then, let's focus on real world use-cases
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tantek
I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying backburner it until someone comes forth with a real world example
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aaronpk
if that is the stance, then it all of a sudden becomes critical to rely on common silos
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tantek
or just pop in here and ask if indieauth could support NewSilo™
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aaronpk
silos that are at least common enough that the wiki and bob.com have in common
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tantek
like I said, until someone comes up with a real world example, I claim there's no such reliance
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tantek
it's just a reflection of what people already use and link to on their home pages
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tantek
reflection != reliance
#
tantek
btw IIW folks are *very good* at arguing such hypotheticals
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aaronpk
but that's really no better of a system than stackoverflow implementing nascar buttons for silos
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tantek
disagreed. there's no NASCAR with IndieAuth
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aaronpk
there is, it's just moved off to indieauth.com rather than on the wiki
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tantek
only buttons for methods the user *already decided to link to from their own site*
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tantek
that's not NASCAR
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aaronpk
so it's a filtered nascar
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tantek
since there is the key step of user choice involved
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tantek
nope, not NASCAR at all, because the user isn't being confronted with an unfamilar logo grid
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GWG
Trying to create that disclosures page
#
tantek
GWG /disclosure already exists
#
tantek
always search for a page before creating
#
tantek
I created it while jeremyz was demoing his site
#
GWG
I was just about to start
#
GWG
Saved me from noticing
#
tantek
when the user is just shown a list of stuff *they already put on their site*, it's not NASCAR, it's call respecting user preferences
#
tantek
it's listening to the user (by looking at their site), instead of pushing crap at the user
#
tantek
*very* different
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aaronpk
ok that's fine, but it still doesn't actually address the issue of not actually relying on silos
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@benwerd
Booking hotels in PDX got surprisingly expensive in the last year. Hipsters, please return to your low-budget ways. #indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/463084517985488896)
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GWG
That was the change I wanted to make
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GWG
tantek: We were discussing a disclosure earlier for the usage of webmentions
#
tantek
aaronpk - the reliance on silos is ephemeral - which is ok
#
tantek
there is no *persistent* reliance on any one silo, that's the key
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tantek
they're totally swappable
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tantek
just like web hosting providers
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aaronpk
i guess i'm shooting for a loftier goal then
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tantek
swappable = ok
#
tantek
"loftier" sounds like higher altitude ;)
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aaronpk
if I'm signing in to my own site, why should I be relying on twitter or github?
#
tantek
Now *that* is a real world use-case :)
#
tantek
Now we're talking
#
tantek
so start with documenting that scope
#
tantek
do we have a /admin page
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aaronpk
of course
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tantek
yes we do
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tantek.com
edited /admin (+14) "admin also includes signing in to your own site"
(view diff)
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GWG
So, what would that look like?
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tantek.com
edited /admin (+436) "document my / Falcon admin UI including sign-in"
(view diff)
#
tantek
GWG better to document current state of the art first, before brainstorming how to incrementally improve it
#
tantek
releases the implied edit token on /admin
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aaronpk
so where i'm going with this, is each indieweb site should be able to specify an auth server to useif it wants
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tantek
how about start with, *you* want to be able to specify your own auth server
#
tantek
scratch your own itch style ;)
#
tantek
because when you document your personal reasons for wanting that, then it makes more concrete sense
#
tantek
as opposed to be a "wouldn't it be nice if"
#
aaronpk
as a person with my own site, I want to specify my own auth server
#
tantek
right - that's worth documenting on /admin
#
GWG
tantek: I don't like to scratch alone
#
aaronpk
as someone who has implemented many "apps", I also want to be able to delegate auth for those apps to other services so I don't have to write the same code all the time
#
tantek
no one said you had to scratch alone, just that you should focus on scratching *your* itches first before others
#
aaronpk
so i'm coming at it from two sides
#
tantek
sure, let's document in the personal site use case first
#
GWG
tantek: I find telling others about what I'm thinking of helps me work it out.
#
tantek
GWG, yes you can and should brainstorm about what you want out loud
#
tantek
start with documenting it on your user page
#
tantek
we all have Itching sections
#
GWG
I did some on the Wordpress page
#
GWG
The next is on my own page, setting up a proposal for a custom post type/taxonomy in Wordpress for certain concepts.
#
tantek.com
created /gwg (+36) "r"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /GWG (+36) "r"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
ha that's a good idea
#
tantek
GWG take a look at the post types here: indiewebcamp.com/posts
#
GWG
tantek: I have. But I have to figure out how to do it within the Wordpress framework. Basically, Posts are Articles
#
tantek
GWG - great - add your "next …" to an "Itches" section on http://indiewebcamp.com/User:David.shanske.com
#
GWG
Correction. Wordpress Posts are Articles
#
tantek
aaronpk, add your sign-in use-case to your entry here: http://indiewebcamp.com/admin#IndieWeb_Examples
#
tantek
or add what you currently do there
#
david.shanske.com
edited /User:David.shanske.com (+44) "/* David Shanske */"
(view diff)
#
tantek
and then add a "Brainstorming" section where you document the use-case of signing-into your own website that you want to solve
#
aaronpk
ok I think the cognitive dissonance i've been experiencing is from the desire for indieauth.com to be both a user tool and a developer tool
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /admin (+418) "add info about aaronparecki.com"
(view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /admin (+1) "fix links to screenshots"
(view diff)
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tantek
going for a run. bbiab. :)
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david.shanske.com
edited /User:David.shanske.com (+976) "/* Wordpress Custom Post Types Planning */"
(view diff)
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GWG
aaronpk: Does this make sense to you?
#
GWG
This is all about how to abstract the Indieweb types in as few types as possible
#
bret
Ok, so I have the very beginnings of a micrpub endpoint deploying to remote git repos
#
aaronpk
whoa cool
#
bret
and it runs for free on heroku other paas
#
aaronpk
that's awesome
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bret
so far its just clones and or pulls on start up, and a function to create a new post file, add it, commit and push
#
bret
so wacky, whatever it works
#
bret
sweet and now ownyourgram has a token
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@generic_brian
I am yet again a little too excited to see crap on my server. Django based #indieweb project 500 page! w00t! https://twitter.com/generic_brian/status/463100433397846017/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/463100433397846017)
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bret
we should add some examples of valid curl POST commands for micropub
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Loqi
agreed.
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /micropub (+311) "/* New Note */ add minimal example with curl command"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
there ya go