#indiewebcamp 2014-05-22

2014-05-22 UTC
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aaronpk
!tell tantek I collected a bunch of URLs that contain(ed) that profile image: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/swag727
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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metafluff.com
edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (-63) "/* RSVP */ boo, cannot make it tonight :("
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@andigalpern
RT @t: Twitter @Safety vulnerability! If cell service @ATT, REMOVE phone# in profile @x @j compromised http://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-05-21-twitter-j-compromised.png (ttk.me t4WB1)
(twitter.com/_/status/469269535020023809)
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk tantek: that image is some anime character. I suspect there will be a lot of profiles with that image
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Loqi
tantek: aaronpk left you a message 10 minutes ago: I collected a bunch of URLs that contain(ed) that profile image: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/swag727
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aaronpk
yeah, not sure how helpful that list really is
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aaronpk
but at least a few of the results were regular looking facebook pages that used to have it
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@t
> @MozSF 17:30 Quiet Writing(blogging @ATT exploit) 18:30 Homebrew Website Club Meetup Join us! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4WB3)
(twitter.com/_/status/469270155575312385)
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@kevinmarks
RT @t: > @MozSF 17:30 Quiet Writing(blogging @ATT exploit) 18:30 Homebrew Website Club Meetup Join us! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4WB3)
(twitter.com/_/status/469271322963374080)
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aaronpk
finds a quiet space at the esripdx office to sit down and start writing
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tantek
is stuck on MUNI at Montgomery inbound. Two stops to go to MozSF stop.
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tantek
apologies to anyone waiting outside MozSF!
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tantek
at Embarcadero station
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tantek
exiting the tunnel
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@andigalpern
RT @t: > @MozSF 17:30 Quiet Writing(blogging @ATT exploit) 18:30 Homebrew Website Club Meetup Join us! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4WB3)
(twitter.com/_/status/469275796105068544)
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@karaem
RT @t: > @MozSF 17:30 Quiet Writing(blogging @ATT exploit) 18:30 Homebrew Website Club Meetup Join us! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4WB3)
(twitter.com/_/status/469276275073626112)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /login-brainstorming (+24) "add to indieauth category"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /auth-brainstorming (+24) "add to indieauth category"
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@ashleyrichards
RT @t: Twitter @Safety vulnerability! If cell service @ATT, REMOVE phone# in profile @x @j compromised http://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-05-21-twitter-j-compromised.png (ttk.me t4WB1)
(twitter.com/_/status/469276978307026946)
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aaronpk
whoa foursquare changed the web URLs for checkins too!
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aaronparecki.com
edited /simple-indieauth-example (+25) "add to indieauth category"
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aaronpk
some new faces in PDX tonight!
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KevinMarks_
finds draft post to work on and realises it's been in draft for 2 years
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aaronparecki.com
edited /simple-indieauth-example (-49) "no redirect needed here"
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KevinMarks_
wow, I have drafts that are 7 years old
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KartikPrabhu
is glad he's not doing as bad as KevinMars_ ;)
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KartikPrabhu
and that failed hard!
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aaronpk
tantek: will you have a vidyo URL for us soon?
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tantek
I have one - figuring we can setup at 6:25
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tantek
18:25 rather
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kylewm
eep, gotta fix that, shouldn't send webmentions for drafts
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tantek
heh :)
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tantek
real-time-IRC debugging
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: oh so that's why the tweet-teply intent is not working :P
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: you can see that post?
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tantek
the one that starts with "Literally rode my bike…" ?
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kylewm
hehe, ha ok
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I just clicked on the URL in webmention on IRC
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kylewm
permalink works, not in the stream apparently
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aaronpk
ooh interested to see where this post goes
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KartikPrabhu
yeah that is how it should be no?
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kylewm
hmm, I would like it to be hidden altogether unless i'm logged in
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kylewm
no danger of accidentally sending webmentions that way :P
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aaronpk
seems reasonable
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: future date them and send mentions only for past/present posts...?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 23 karma
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kylewm
that's an interesting idea
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tantek
I've found it exceptionally useful to have public visible future drafts
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tantek
to share with friends for review
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tantek
and just not have them linked to from anywhere (nor send any mentions)
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KartikPrabhu
same^^ though I did copy tante on this one :)
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KartikPrabhu
's spelling part of the brain is failing
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tantek
kylewm: I read your post. That's hilarious, you namedrop Loqi, so he outs your post here.
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kylewm
is it possible to see the superfeedr thing for a keyword? that's what notifix is doing in here i think
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kylewm
haha :)
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@J
RT @t: Twitter @Safety vulnerability! If cell service @ATT, REMOVE phone# in profile @x @j compromised http://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-05-21-twitter-j-compromised.png (ttk.me t4WB1)
(twitter.com/_/status/469285375840907265)
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aaronpk
looks like @j got her twitter account back? https://twitter.com/J/status/469284981701767170
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@J
Hacked due to lame @att "Messages" service that allowed hacker to break into txt messages and essentially override two factor authentication
(twitter.com/_/status/469284981701767170)
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@dav
RT @t: Twitter @Safety vulnerability! If cell service @ATT, REMOVE phone# in profile @x @j compromised http://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-05-21-twitter-j-compromised.png (ttk.me t4WB1)
(twitter.com/_/status/469285944147705857)
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tantek
looks like @j got her account back but all the previous tweets are still deleted :(
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tantek
is making all of KevinMarks's device beep and bleep during Quiet Writing Hour. >:)
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tantek
s/device/devices
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: is making all of KevinMarks's devices beep and bleep during Quiet Writing Hour. >:)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /distributed-indieauth () "(-2690) stub outline with links to related pages"
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aaronpk
heading to conference room to set up camera
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@snarshad
RT @t: Twitter @Safety vulnerability! If cell service @ATT, REMOVE phone# in profile @x @j compromised http://indiewebcamp.com/File:2014-05-21-twitter-j-compromised.png (ttk.me t4WB1)
(twitter.com/_/status/469289492218519552)
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kylewm
@schnarfed's alter ego ^^
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GWG
Who is @J?
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GWG
Someone in here?
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: i don't think so
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GWG
All the single letters know each other?
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kylewm
GWG: if they don't, twitter sure thinks they do, when you start following @t it recommends all the others in "people you might no"
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kylewm
know*
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: if you have anything new, put your hand up and we'll talk about it - SF or Portland
(twitter.com/_/status/469291654059671553)
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GWG
kylewm: I noticed
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: if you're an AT&T cellphone account user, people can create an account there and see your SMSs, and have stolen @j @x accounts
(twitter.com/_/status/469291928455245825)
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GWG
I'm sure @t and @u hang out all the time.
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: if you report a security bug to AT&T they ask you to file a police report for identity theft
(twitter.com/_/status/469292069992017921)
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aaronpk
please make sure to speak into the mic closely
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: I'm Ben, formerly of idno, which is now @withknown and I'm the CEO - we're the first indieweb company
(twitter.com/_/status/469292312041099264)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @benwerd: what we really need is to talk to people interested in indieweb, owning your own data, but not tehcnical - talk to us.
(twitter.com/_/status/469292425144705024)
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@benwerd
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @benwerd: what we really need is to talk to people interested in indieweb, owning your own data, but not tehcnica…
(twitter.com/_/status/469292556090474496)
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KevinMarks_
who is speaking?
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aaronpk
alex linkser
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @aaronpk: I've been documenting IndieAuth and putting tools for it together so other people can make sense of it
(twitter.com/_/status/469292674919702528)
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@Johannes_Ernst
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @benwerd: what we really need is to talk to people interested in indieweb, owning your own data, but not tehcnica…
(twitter.com/_/status/469292708003975168)
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tantek
Darren?
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^ ?
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @alexlinkser: I am looking into teaching people about technloogy
(twitter.com/_/status/469292925869121536)
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aaronpk
speaker: psyhigh.com
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@BillSeitz
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @aaronpk: I've been documenting IndieAuth and putting tools for it together so other people can make sense of it
(twitter.com/_/status/469293022102835200)
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aaronpk
paulmunday.net up now
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npdoty
regrets that I couldn't be there tonight
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npdoty
... but I just want to say that I think the quiet writing hour is a great idea and I can't wait to join in on that next week
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@BillSeitz
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @benwerd: I'm Ben, formerly of idno, which is now @withknown and I'm the CEO - we're the first indieweb company
(twitter.com/_/status/469293150851186688)
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aaronpk
since he was here last, has been wokring on his site, ripped out all the specific things to his own site and now published it on github
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tantek
npdoty - every two weeks :)
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KevinMarks_
lean into the mic portland, can't hear
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npdoty
tantek, blast, I think I'm out of town in two weeks
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tantek
npdoty - see indiewebcamp.com/events for upcoming events :)
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@benwerd
At Homebrew Website Club. @johannes_ernst is discussing the Indie Box crowdfunding campaign: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/indie-box-let-s-bring-our-data-home #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/469293653848903680)
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aaronpk
will bring his table mic next time so it's in the middle of the table not at the end
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @Johannes_Ernst: IndieBox is a home server that has a geek mode and a human mode - http://indieboxproject.org/blog/
(twitter.com/_/status/469293975137157120)
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@Johannes_Ernst
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @Johannes_Ernst: IndieBox is a home server that has a geek mode and a human mode - http://indieboxproject.org/blog/
(twitter.com/_/status/469294073447059457)
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tantek
aaronpk - please note name, URL, twitter handle :)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @Johannes_Ernst: as the box is quite expensive, I want to set up a virtual Indie box for people on Amazon, and need help with that
(twitter.com/_/status/469294181283016705)
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@indieboxproject
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @Johannes_Ernst: IndieBox is a home server that has a geek mode and a human mode - http://indieboxproject.org/blog/
(twitter.com/_/status/469294188433915904)
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KevinMarks_
what was URL?
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^
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tantek
… found IndieWebCamp via Aral Balkan
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tall_paul
martelles.com
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KevinMarks_
Apple's attitude to having your own site hasn't changed much: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003/08/how-i-emailed-myself-into-job-and.html
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tantek
… if you want a different web, you have to build it
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KevinMarks_
what was his name?
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tantek
(now speaking)
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tantek
… has a personal website
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tantek
… background in realtime 3d graphics algorithms
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek
… does a lot of C++
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tantek
… this web thing is kind of cool
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tantek
… just figuring out how to get a simple image gallery going
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Matt Martelles: I left my job 'cos my old employer was very draconian about websites. If you want a better web you have to build i
(twitter.com/_/status/469295065974984704)
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KevinMarks_
hi psyhigh
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tantek
Ben Morrow
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tantek
… has a personal website
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KevinMarks_
Ben Morrow childoftv.com I edit it in google docs using a spreadsheet and some arhcaic XSLT
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tantek
… hooked up to a Google Docs UI
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tantek
with PHP and XSLT
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benwerd
was that "Dark Pirate" or "Duck Pirate"? Both are awesome
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benwerd
ohhhhh
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tantek
dotpirate.ninja
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Ben Morrow: my site is http://www.childoftv.com/ I edit it in google docs using a spreadsheet and some archaic XSLT
(twitter.com/_/status/469295662727983105)
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tantek
… used to work for Facebook
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tantek
… wrote a book about that
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benwerd
http://domains.ninja/ if anyone's as interested as I am
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aaronpk
"I'm here right now because I realized my favorite platform is writing on my own website"
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @katelosse: My site is katelosse.tv - I used to work at facebook and wrote a book about that.
(twitter.com/_/status/469295875802791937)
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tantek
… both working at FB, and writing a book, I found that you're subordinate to others in your publishing
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @katelosse: now I most enjoy writing on my own site and want to own that -both facebook and being a book author constrains you
(twitter.com/_/status/469296006392455170)
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tantek
Zach!
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tantek
Zack Fischmann
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@benwerd
.@katelosse: "I'm here right now because I realized my favorite platform is writing on my own website." +1 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/469296262689202176)
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jjuran
<-- <http://www.jjuran.org/>, main site: <http://www.metamage.com/>, Portable distributed programming system: <http://www.fornaxis.org/>
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb Zack Fischmann: I have http://www.zackfischmann.com and I'm here to work on new projects with people
(twitter.com/_/status/469296360865669120)
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psyhigh
http://marmalademountain.bandcamp.com/ is actually really great
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @Johannes_Ernst: This word Indie is claimed by lots of people for different things - is there a way to decide how to use this
(twitter.com/_/status/469296553824645120)
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benwerd
(Looking forward to the "indie" discussion. Gave an entire pitch yesterday without using the word once. Now think it wasn't a good idea.)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @andigalpern: I do event hosting for UX nights - I want to work on a blog to share information, I want to write without worrying
(twitter.com/_/status/469296918666182656)
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GWG
benwerd: I heard that.
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@Mike_Hendley
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @Johannes_Ernst: IndieBox is a home server that has a geek mode and a human mode - http://indieboxproject.org/blog/
(twitter.com/_/status/469297023066574849)
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KevinMarks_
I didn't hear that
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KartikPrabhu
Zack Fischmann: nice website. you should blog there instead of on blogspot :)
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: earlier today in Dusseldorf there was a session on IndieMark - I want to talk about improving http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
(twitter.com/_/status/469297363245629440)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+37) "/* Photos */ add screenshot of video link"
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upon2020.com
edited /Indie_Box (+419) "added some more flesh"
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@search8engine
RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb Ben Morrow: my site is http://www.childoftv.com/ I edit it in google docs using a spreadsheet and some archaic XSLT
(twitter.com/_/status/469298131377864704)
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tantek
Ben Morrow asked me which apps I'm using for communication without a phone # - here's a screenshot (and the URLs to construct them :) ) http://tantek.com/2014/084/b1/urls-people-focused-mobile-communication
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tantek
welcome childoftv
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childoftv
cool
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tantek
AKA Ben Morrow
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tantek
aaronpk - that worked really well to not just do general intros by everyone
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tantek
and only do intros for new people
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tantek
we should put that on the wiki or something
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tantek
do we have a "how to run a homebrew website club meetup" section?
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childoftv
Hey so @tantek how did you come to choose using in ipod for this...also is there a way to get an un-network-paired firefox phone?
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KevinMarks_
does it work for the new people though? they don't know who we all are
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KevinMarks_
yes, you can buy firefox phones without a sim, I got one on ebay
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tantek
childoftv: FirefoxOS phones here in the US are *only* unlocked :)
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tantek
KevinMarks: I think it does by only cognitively loading them up with a few other new people to learn at first
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tantek
and incrementally more over time
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tantek
hearing everyone's name = forgetting nearly everyone's name
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childoftv
awesome. I'd love to unpair from various services and for example share private keys with friends to comm on a personally secured channel...no idea re the legality
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aaronparecki.com
edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+1) "/* RSVP */ fix bullet placement"
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tantek
childoftv - re: how did I come to chose an ipod for this: see: http://tantek.com/2014/006/t2/ipod-wifi-mifi-works-iamnotanumber-nophone-future
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childoftv
https://plus.google.com/app/basic/stream/z133vvygwpzxc3co404cchobnq3wzl25jik ipython live multiuser interactive python notebooks hosted in chrome
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childoftv
(not available yet ...but ipython notebooks generally are http://ipython.org/notebook.html)
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childoftv
it's increasingly becoming *the* platform for technical blog posts
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psyhigh.com
created /User:Psyhigh.com (+222) "Created page with " psyhigh.com[http://psyhigh.com] is the public website for Psychic High School. The dev site starts at psyhigh.biz/welcome [http://psyhigh.biz/welcome]. Looking for a platform ...""
(view diff)
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raph_m
How about the Julia programming language? Any thoughts on that? I'm seeing some technical work being done with iJulia: https://github.com/JuliaLang/IJulia.jl :)
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@kartik_prabhu
Officially going to @indiewebcamp NYC! @craigmod you should come if you're around @jeremyzilar is hosting. see: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014
(twitter.com/_/status/469303851695108097)
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raph_m
Here in PDX, we are seeing a demo of how easy it is to install "wiki" (npm install -g wiki).
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childoftv
re Julia I've liked what I've seen but the community is much smaller than python (which has pros and cons)
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aaronpk
almost easy, but my npm is apparently not set up quite right
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raph_m
Julia community is definitely smaller now. I see it gaining momentum, given that you can call python very easily. :)
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aaronpk
pdx is wrapping up!
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aaronpk
bye san francisco!
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psyhigh
bye bye SF!
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tantek
hey PDX folks - take a PHOTO!
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kylewm
hit kind of a dead end on my hashtag idea … can't think of a way to do it without a central server collecting all the tags, which starts to feel very silo-like
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rascul
what is your hashtag idea?
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kylewm
i wanted to use webmentions to notify some server that i'd tagged a thing... <a href="http://indie-tags.net/foobar">#foobar</a>. It'd receive the webmention and aggregate all the tags from everyone talking about that thing
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kylewm
i started writing about it during "quiet writing hour" and accidentally spammed IRC with 20% written my draft copy :)
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kylewm
s/20% written my/my 20% written/
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Loqi
kylewm meant to say: i started writing about it during "quiet writing hour" and accidentally spammed IRC with my 20% written draft copy :)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: successfully switched to mf2util for parsing comments :)
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kylewm
Whoa really??? that's awesome!
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KartikPrabhu
the date parsing is much better than anything I could have done!
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kylewm
that makes me really happy. definitely let me know if any issues you have with it or changes you make/want
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I will add some "safe defaults" i.e. if the page has no microformats then some default values could be parsed from the HTML but that might not belong in mf2util
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kylewm
oh yeah that'd be very cool, I would certainly use it
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KartikPrabhu
hi indie-visitor: use /nick yourname to change your nick
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warScout
thanks haha
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KartikPrabhu
welcome warScout
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warScout
hey..how do you link to this in mIRC?
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KartikPrabhu
you mean link to the IRC?
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warScout
to this specific forum...sorry I am super new at this...haven't been on IRC in like 15 years
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aaronpk
that's a common theme around here :)
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KartikPrabhu
warScout: never used mIRC... sorry. I am also new to IRC and have only used 1 client so far :P
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warScout
yeah I can imagine...hmmm..okay thank KartickPrabhu....I will continue trying see if I can connect through mIRC...if anyone has any guidance that would be awesome
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bear
warScout: also general help for mIRC http://www.mirc.com/install.html
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warScout
okay cool...I'll check it out thank you
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bear
hope that helps
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aaronparecki.com
edited /rel-me (+30) "improve dfn"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
is that today's HWC SF group?
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aaronpk
oh nice!
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aaronpk
i forgot to get a real phooto of pdx today
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aaronpk
but i got a screencap of the video link
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KartikPrabhu
better than nothign
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KartikPrabhu
sorry there was no HWC Chicago. 50% of the people were busy!
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@kevinmarks
RT @benwerd: .@katelosse: "I'm here right now because I realized my favorite platform is writing on my own website." +1 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/469356912140886016)
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aaronpk
need more micropub clients
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aaronpk
who's up for making a sweet looking note posting interface or something
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aaronpk
thinking about two-factor auth at a nano level, requiring human confirmation before any client can actually post to your site via your micropub endpoint
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aaronpk
e.g. I sign in to barnaby's experimental Taproot interface but don't trust it entirely yet. Instead of giving him blanket access to post to my site, every time his app makes a request to my micropub endpoint, it goes and asks me for confiramtion before publishing
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aaronpk
either OOB confirmation (2-factor auth via SMS or something) or an oauth-link confirmation dialog from the same browser
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: what kind? web? micropubbing is on my agend of the near future. May work on that at IWC-East
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aaronpk
probably web cause it's easier. i just need more examples I can reference
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aaronpk
also I gotta finish this stuff faster so I can explore things like this two-factor auth idea
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KartikPrabhu
I suppose I must have a micropub endpoint before all that happens... :) will work towards that for the near future
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aaronpk
indeed :)
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aaronpk
your own micropub endpoint is the first step. but you can use tokens.indieauth.com to jumpstart it
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KartikPrabhu
cool. added to research tab group :)
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KartikPrabhu
I don't like Django's admin interface so having my own has been a goal I'm working towards
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aaronpk
and I don't like the idea of interfaces being locked into a single site
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aaronpk
like why should p3k's posting interface be limited to posting to p3k sites
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KartikPrabhu
true! I like the idea of micropub for sure
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KartikPrabhu
someday there'll be a mobile app for it or something
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@benwerd
@harsh545555 Webmentions are still there! It works really well with https://www.brid.gy/
(twitter.com/_/status/469360581820956672)
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KartikPrabhu
actually a webpage is good enough now that I think about it
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aaronpk
yeah you can go pretty far with just a web page
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aaronpk
i still trust native apps more for certain things. like offline posting.
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aaronpk
anyway i'm off for the night
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KartikPrabhu
hmm I should too... gnight!
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michielbdejong
Re http://indiewebcamp.com/CORS - this would be very useful for client-side IndieReaders like https://dogfeed.5apps.com/. I would rely on CORS to poll the rss feeds of people I folllow if all of them had CORS headers. But since >=1 of them don't, I proxy these requests through sockethub instead.
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michielbdejong
So there is a critical mass problem there.
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michielbdejong
This means nobody reads other people's websites over CORS, which in turn means there is no benefit (that I know of) of one single website offering CORS headers.
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michielbdejong
cc binbasti
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michielbdejong
I currently only support CORS on the admin interface of my website, not on the public interface.
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michielbdejong
(the admin interface is simply editing the files via the remoteStorage protocol)
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tantek.com
edited /events/2014-05-21-homebrew-website-club (+108) "/* Photos */ tweet and image from andi"
(view diff)
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@glennjones
Playing with #indieweb backfeed idea - automatic pulling replies/activity etc from twitter - http://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed
(twitter.com/_/status/469406296887001088)
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binbasti
michielbdejong: reg. dogfeed: yes, but you could also use a proxy, like the one we have for 5apps Deploy accounts, so your code for parsing the feed/microdata etc is already the same as if you could access everything with cors enabled. in fact, you could then fall back to a proxy automatically, depending on if you get access to the resource or not (not 100% sure about this one, because browsers are intentionally quiet/unclear about cors errors)
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binbasti
in any case, i don't see a single reason for not making content accessible from client-side js apps
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binbasti
except for when you use session cookies of course
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paulmunday.net
uploaded /File:paul_m_as_a_ladybird.jpg "A picture of paulmunday.net"
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paulmunday.net
edited /2014/Guest_List (+233) "/* West */ added user:paulmunday.net"
(view diff)
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sebastian.kip.pe
created /User:Sebastian.kip.pe (+69) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">[http://sebastian.kip.pe Sebastian Kippe]</span>""
(view diff)
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sebastian.kip.pe
edited /IRC_People (+0) "Correct sort order"
(view diff)
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paulmunday.net
edited /2014/Guest_List (+7) "/* West */ fixed image"
(view diff)
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snarfed
KevinMarks: i take it twig got published last night? got a ton of new bridgy signups
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@CalebXanadu
Fragmentions: link/refer to an arbitrary text in a web page http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention
(twitter.com/_/status/469485805325398016)
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dissolve
snarfed, if he doesn't answer i'll be able to tell you soon enough, I'm listening back now
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snarfed
dissolve: cool, thanks
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dissolve
oh that reminds me. barnabywalters, I got you there too now http://benthatmustbeme.tumblr.com/post/86506014156/barnaby-walters-shows-up-now-too
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barnabywalters
dissolve: oh cool! my rocketry is invading your phone :)
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barnabywalters
thanks for documenting this, dissolve!
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kylewm
barnabywalters: do you have a couple minutes to help figure out why i can't get hooked up with the taproot micropub interface? it's ok if not :)
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barnabywalters
kylewm: will do in a minute, just doing work stuff
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kylewm
work stuff takes precedence!
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barnabywalters
kylewm: okay, long batch task started, how can I help you?
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kylewm
barnabywalters: so I'm able to log in on waterpigs.co.uk, and from my logs it looks like I get as far as sending an access token
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kylewm
but then in /notes/new, it says "welcome guest" and doesn't seem to recognize that i have micropub
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kylewm
wondering if i have something misconfugred
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barnabywalters
kylewm: looking into it
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barnabywalters
kylewm: in my logs I see a successfully discovered micropub endpoint, so it’s possible I broke something when I extracted my indieauth code into a separate library
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kylewm
barnabywalters: ah gotcha, thanks for looking into it. i'm happy to test it again whenever if you'd like :)
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barnabywalters
kylewm: can you try logging out and back in again?
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kylewm
barnabywalters: yep, doing now
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benwerd
Good morning indieweb
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kylewm
barnabywalters: logged in
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kylewm
barnabywalters: I think it used to say (kylewm.com [log out]), not it just says ([log out])
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kylewm
morning benwerd!
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barnabywalters
afternoon benwerd
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barnabywalters
kylewm: hrm, looks like it’s still not working
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barnabywalters
I know why it’s failing, but not the cause
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barnabywalters
in my logs for your requests, I see:
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barnabywalters
Request has indieauth token {"token":{"access_token":"Unlogged string of length 251","scope":"['post']","me":"http://kylewm.com","micropub_endpoint":"http://kylewm.com/api/micropub"}}
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barnabywalters
whereas for mine, I see:
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barnabywalters
Request has indieauth token {"token":{"me":"http://waterpigs.co.uk","scope":"post","access_token":"Unlogged string of length 528","micropub_endpoint":"http://waterpigs.co.uk/"}}
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barnabywalters
note the difference in the scope parameter
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barnabywalters
mine is a string, yours appears to be a JSON-serialized array
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kylewm
ohhh, yeah I have all sorts of trouble with that scope parameter
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barnabywalters
I believe the spec requires it to be a space-separated string
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barnabywalters
which is what my code is expecting
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kylewm
OK I will try that
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kylewm
barnabywalters: it worked!!
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barnabywalters
kylewm: awesome!
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kylewm
thanks very much for helping me sort that out
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barnabywalters
kylewm: not a problem! I’m going to add some helpful debuggin output available for people using micropub
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kylewm
that's what you get for having the only public client other than OYG ;)
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@BarnabyWalters
Any #silex devs who want to add #indieauth sign-in or micropub to their applications? Take a look at… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WCGeR/
(twitter.com/_/status/469517909127987200)
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barnabywalters
kylewm: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/new should now have a little debugging box at the bottom — let me know if there’s anything else in there which would be useful or would have been useful whilst debugging
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aaronpk
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 13 karma
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aaronpk
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 40 karma
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aaronpk
nice work on that micropub stuff
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KartikPrabhu
"RSS is all about interroperability: it’s probably only second to HTML when it comes to decoupling dataformats." from: http://blog.superfeedr.com/indiefeeds/
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: julien's in sf right now, i met w/him yesterday
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snarfed
we talked about an interesting idea. superfeedr could start attempting to send webmentions for every link in every post that it sees
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KartikPrabhu
it could! What is the superfeedr attitude towards h-feed?
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snarfed
he said they get about 1kqps of new posts, so estimating say average of 5 links per post, that'd be 5kqps of webmentions steady state, which is pretty big
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snarfed
he's obviously friendly toward all of this. i think he feels strongly about feed formats, but also strongly about the indieweb community, so i doubt he'd get religious about mf2/h-feed vs rss/atom
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: but if most of those websites don't support webmentions then what is the point of sending them?
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: that is a good attitude :)
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snarfed
oh you're right, the vast majority wouldn't, but it'd be a big help on the sending side of the adoption problem
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@whaity
@IndieWebCampUK hello any news on indiewebuk 2014? Need any help?
(twitter.com/_/status/469528613168349184)
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snarfed
you need both sending and receiving, and even a bump in one side would be good
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KartikPrabhu
sure... just the fact that superfeedr supports it might make more people aware and interested
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@whaity
@aaronpk waiting to see if there will be a @indiewebcampuk this year
(twitter.com/_/status/469528883034079233)
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snarfed
bridgy's support for tumblr/blogger/wp.com is similar, but the problem is it's opt in per blog. this would automatically start sending them for a huge number of sites, without requiring any changes to the sites themselves, which would be awesome
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snarfed
would take a lot of resources up front to do discovery for all of those sites, but that would settle down if you cache with a long ttl
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voxpelli
Not sure I think it's a good idea to send webmentions for sites not sending them themselves - I think it should be opt in to send them
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KartikPrabhu
hmm voxpelli if the webmention endpoint is not found then no mention is sent anyway
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voxpelli
I would rather only receive webmentions from people intentionally sending them rather than from anyone who just links to me from their blog entry
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voxpelli
At least at this point
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KartikPrabhu
but webmentions are supposed to be sent for all links in a blog anyway
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KartikPrabhu
and many people automate them
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voxpelli
Are they? Says who? What's the purpose?
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KartikPrabhu
the purpose is to notify that some post was linked to from another one. The receiver can choose to ignore it if it was a simple mention. I note simple "mentions" under the "Mentions" section below my posts
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snarfed
voxpelli: intent is tricky to determine
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: I would focus more on the "mention" part of that description - I think mentioning is an active act rather than something you passively do by just linking. That there's a difference between linking and mentioning
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snarfed
e.g. many servers and blog providers automatically send trackbacks or pingbacks, and most of their users have no idea that those even exist, much less that their sites are sending them
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snarfed
so did those users "intent" to send them? hard to say
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snarfed
s/intent/intend/
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Loqi
snarfed meant to say: so did those users "intend" to send them? hard to say
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aaronpk
the original goal of webmention was a faster notification of a link to a site
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aaronpk
so the actual payload itself is not that significant
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aaronpk
that's why there's only source and target parameters and no data is actually sent
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voxpelli
I would say that it is too early to deploy just the pinging on a massive scale - that such a move could do more harm than good
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aaronpk
it'll definitely prompt people to deal with spam real quick
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snarfed
exactly
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KartikPrabhu
voxpelli: harm as in?
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aaronpk
but think about it this way, at any point, anybody can start sending webmentions on behalf of other people
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snarfed
if scale will bring harm, we might as well start discovering that harm and addressing it now
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voxpelli
The pinging without any additional data also won't give much of an advantage over ping back
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voxpelli
Scale brings harm because scale means that it's harder to bring about changes
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aaronpk
the webmention protocol itself is not supposed to be very different from pingback, just easier to use
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voxpelli
we're still discovering new needs for it though - like the discovery of a-tags - and bigger scale makes things harder to change - makes you less agile
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snarfed
voxpelli++ for scale implying higher priority on backward compatibility
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Loqi
voxpelli has 2 karma
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snarfed
good point
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voxpelli
And from a PR point it's much less easy to make a case for webmentions without pairing it with mf2 metadata - so big pushes should have both for increased likelihood of success
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aaronpk
not even just from a PR point. webmentions are way more useful with mf2 data
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gRegor`
Welcome, whaity
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snarfed
hey, gRegor`'s here. gRegor`, just curious, did you notice the fix for https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/133 ?
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snarfed
interested whether it now works for your use case
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gRegor`
Hey snarfed. Probably not yet
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gRegor`
been out of the loop :) I'll take a look.
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snarfed
np! not urgent
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gRegor`
Ooh, nice.
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snarfed
heh, yeah, i knew it worked on bridgy's end. i was curious if that means you can now do what you originally wanted to do with it
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gRegor`
I wasn't sure if it would be retroactive.
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gRegor`
Should work. I'll just pull the webmention again
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snarfed
great!
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aaronpk
beginning to think that one git commit per webmention is a bit much :)
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snarfed
aaronpk: for popular sites, yes
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aaronpk
well for amber's in particular right now
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snarfed
vcses aren't exactly the best backend for scaling data volume
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snarfed
s/aren't exactly the best/are maybe the worst/
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Loqi
snarfed meant to say: vcses are maybe the worst backend for scaling data volume
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rascul
what could be better?
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aaronpk
mine doesn't look as ridiculous as hers right now
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snarfed
rascul: um. anything? filesystem, db, nosql
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aaronpk
multiple webmentions per git commit
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rascul
i see
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aaronpk
i might just set it up on a timer or something, so it'll wait 10 minutes to accumulate mentions before making a commit. that way at least this wouldn't happen: https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2919/14242810281_df232ee71c_o.png
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snarfed
yup, batching is often a quick fix, as long as you don't sacrifice persistence
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: note that he doesn't mention Atom, which, being specified more clearly/strictly/precisely, has more interop than RSS
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yup! I did notice that
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aaronpk
I think most people don't care about the difference between RSS and Atom, and use RSS to refer to both
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tantek
and renaming "RSS feeds" to "Indie feeds" is just bikeshedding
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tantek
it's meaningless
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tantek
aaronpk - hah - not those still hurting from the RSS/Atom wars
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tantek
who are the loudest voices when it comes to both
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aaronpk
most people don't remember the rss/atom wars
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KartikPrabhu
what is bikeshedding?
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tantek
aaronpk the silent majority doesn't care about RSS/Atom
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tantek
nevermind the difference
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tantek
(typically renaming things (arguing about) rather than actually doing anything meaningful)
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aaronpk
also I didn't take his post as a renaming of RSS feeds, more like acknowledging there are more feeds than just RSS
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: got it!
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tantek
so this: "RSS is all about interroperability" is false. RSS is all about errantly focusing on plumbing instead of user experience.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: i can be argued that all formats are focus on plumbing instead of UX
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KartikPrabhu
s/i can/it can
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: tantek: it can be argued that all formats are focus on plumbing instead of UX
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gRegor`
Which post are you guys talking about?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: "it can be argued" is weasel wording. If you have a specific argument, make it.
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shaners
tantek KartikPrabhu: ABORT! ABORT!
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dissolve
by the way snarfed, bridgy was his pick of the week type of thing
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snarfed
dissolve: on twig?
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KartikPrabhu
shaners: ??
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dissolve
yeah
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snarfed
that explains the spike of new users then
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snarfed
great!
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snarfed
thanks
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kylewm
this might be a dumb question, but why is it called the week in Google?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I am saying that arguing about which format is better is futile without people having done something with it which includes UX/UI . Afaik on the writing/publishing end RSS UX is sort of sucky and h-feed is better. On the consuming end RSS/Atom UX is better just because of a lot of reader support. (I think we are basically agreeing :) )
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KartikPrabhu
shaners: don't worry I like arguing with tantek ;)
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tantek.com
created /weasel_word (+534) "stub with defn, citation, see also"
(view diff)
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dissolve
kylewm twit does a bunch of stuff like this week in microsoft, this week in android, etc. In theory its all about google, but really they just talk about whatever half the time
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shaners
KartikPrabhu: arguing is a waste of time. go build.
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KartikPrabhu
good idea :)
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kylewm
thanks dissolve
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KartikPrabhu
lol KevinMarks :)
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tantek
shaners, arguing can be worth the time in a community when used to reduce the occurrences of repeated noise-threads which distract from building.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I wasn't debating which format was better (strawman) - not sure where you got that.
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shaners
tantek: i've seen you have this same argument before. if you haven't, you should capture your thoughts into a wiki page and just point to that.
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tantek
I was precise: RSS (format, "community" (if there even is one), proponents) are all about errantly focusing on plumbing instead of user experience.
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tantek
shaners - if you've seen the same argument before, please provide the citation. happy to wikify it to reduce future recurrences.
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KartikPrabhu
aah! yes agreed :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: the only way I've found out of that mess is to reduce engagements with (i.e. even quoting/linking) people/communities that are plumbing-focused.
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tantek
and instead, focus on building a design/UX-first community, tools (selfdogfood), and *then* formats/protocols which support those two.
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KartikPrabhu
because engaging leads to more plumbing arguments?
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tantek
right
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tantek
plumbers can argue endlessly about plumbing because they're not grounded in any form of user experience / human use-cases.
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tantek
so it is futile to argue with plumbers about plumbing. I mean, unless you just want practice arguing.
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KartikPrabhu
ha! I can practice arguing by just prodding you :P
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KevinMarks
kylewm: it's called this week in google originally 'cos Jeff wrote What Would Google Do, btu it covers cloud computing and whetever we feel like
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: there you go ;)
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KevinMarks
so I use it as a place to talk about indieweb among other things
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tantek
to me, anyone seriously proposing RSS for anything at this point (especially the start of a discussion) is blind to the fact that RSS evolution has been dead for 10+ years.
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tantek
so therefore can be ignored. hasn't evolved for 10+ years, not likely to do so now.
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KevinMarks
I gave brid.gy, known and fragmentions a big plug towards the end of the show
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tantek
nicely done KevinMarks!
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dissolve
yeah KevinMarks, you are talking for quite a while about them
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snarfed
KevinMarks: i noticed, lots of new users signed up overnight (and still are). thank you!
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KevinMarks
It was supposed to be a 90 minutes show, and I made it run 130 :D
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dissolve
thats how I got involved in here
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kylewm
tantek: KartikPrabhu: is syndicating to a feed fundamentally different from syndicating to twitter?
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dissolve
your mentions on twig slowly drawing people in
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tantek.com
edited /reader (+29) "also indie reader"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: feed is more like having al alternate version of your site than POSSEing
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gavinc_
What about complaining about the plumbing? Can we bitch about the pipes that require us to have web applications just so a command line too can download our pictures? (OAuth2)
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KevinMarks
TWiG (and leo's network in general) has a fairly techy audience
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KevinMarks
more so than Gillmor Gang I think
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tantek
KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 24 karma
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tantek
gavinc_: sure, add an "Issues" or "Criticism" section to any page about any particular plumbing you want and go for it.
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KartikPrabhu
hey dissolve: you should ad youself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people :D
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KevinMarks
I have a friend looking for someone to interview Python engineers - suggestions?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: from the publishing side maybe, but as a content consumer, if someone can subscribe to me on twitter or on superfeedr (via a reader), they're more likely to get better content on the latter
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dissolve
oh, whoa
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tantek
who uses Python?
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tantek
(hmm, not quite yet Loqi)
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tantek
what is Python?
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Loqi
Python is a programming language and web server runtime environment used for many IndieWeb projects http://indiewebcamp.com/Python
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ben_thatmustbeme
didn't even noticed I was on my other name
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Loqi
rofl
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ben_thatmustbeme
how long has that been
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snarfed
KevinMarks: interview them for a job? or for an article or research? or…?
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: as a content consumer the trouble with feeds is that it is purely passive unlike Twitter where you can reply and all that. I am hoping indie-readers + micropub will solve that
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KevinMarks
kylewm: reading your tags idea from last night it sounds exactly like technorati's tag crawler
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KevinMarks
except we were already pinged by blogs, so didn't require linking to us.
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kylewm
KevinMarks: I started writing the post and was like "wait is this just technorati"
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kylewm
"just" technorati
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gavinc_
KevinMarks: Same question as snarfed, interview about/for what?
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kylewm
i meant, "am i suggesting a terrible version of technorati"
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KevinMarks
gavinc_: a friend with a startup is recruiting engs, needs a tech interviewer to screen them
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kylewm
KevinMarks: i was talking to Julien last night about whether we could subscribe to a track on superfeedr, seems like that mechanism has more potential
dybskiy_ joined the channel
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tantek
kylewm - your question "syndicating to a feed fundamentally different from syndicating to twitter?" is the best illustration of feed-framing-blinders I have seen
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tantek
"feed" is just a format. it's *only* plumbing
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KevinMarks
(I'm reading irc history, so expect some time-lagged comments)
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tantek
whereas Twitter is an entire site, UX, feature set, user base etc. etc. etc.
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KartikPrabhu
yup^^ what tante said
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KartikPrabhu
s/tant/tantek
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: yup^^ what tanteke said
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tantek
they are so *fundamentally different* that it is *shocking* that you would ask that.
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kylewm
tantek: I'm not getting it. couldn't I just say "syndicate to Feedly"?
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tantek
what is Feedly?
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Loqi
feedly is a server-based feed aggregator and reader http://indiewebcamp.com/feedly
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KevinMarks
the commonality is cramming one representation into another.
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tantek
kylewm, that's better, because then we can compare Feedly UX and Twitter UX, users, features etc.
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KevinMarks
this what is syntax starts to look a bit odd. Makes Tantek look like he's having a socratic dialogue with Loqi.
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tantek
socratic-dialogue++
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Loqi
socratic-dialogue has 1 karma
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kylewm
(was that a genuine "what is" question or an intentional Loqi-query?)
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ben_thatmustbeme
my god Kevin you certainly did drag that show out
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tantek
kylewm - look at for example how bare the /Feedly page is as compared to the /Twitter page
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: you could say "syndicating to feedly" and that does not depend on your feed format (say), but then what? Feedly does not provide you any way to actively engage with the content (like reply/comment)
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KevinMarks
well, they asked for cool things, then I had to explain them...
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tantek
that to me says, people in this community don't really care about /Feedly except to warn about its problems
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tantek
and if people here *do* care about Feedly, then prove it by adding to the /Feedly page
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KevinMarks
aaronpk: reading you comments on micropub from last night, I shoudl get back to making noterlive support ti. Which means making noterlive work again.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I use feedly regularly but I don't really care for it except that it gives me updates. I use it to then go to the actual webpage
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tantek.com
edited /Python (+385) "add IndieWeb Examples section so future Loqi can find it"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
Once i get some results of exactly how you need to format things to get your site updates to show up in Google Now, I'll add a wiki page about that
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tantek
oops that was not meant to say Minor edit
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tantek
what is Google Now?
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KevinMarks
google now is now sending me desktop notifications via HTML5 notificatiosn in chrome
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: it's very weird to me that you're arguing that feedly doesn't provide a wy to engage with content. The way to engage is to post on your own site and send me a WM
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KevinMarks
Daft ones about having to cycle for 5 hours to get to SF, but it's a start
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: because it lets me include a permalink to my actual real post, I think it provides a much better way for people to engage with my content
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tantek.com
edited /Google (+132) "notification services Google Alerts, Google now"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yes! but I don't think that is better UI/UX than Twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme
KevinMarks, I turned them on but I have yet to see any on desktop. I am getting every update to tantek.com and waterpigs.co.uk now though
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tantek
kylewm: feel free to start a "Advantages" section on /Feedly and document that!
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KartikPrabhu
For instance this is what a friend asked me on reading my indieweb article: "So once I read your site and want to comment, I have to open a new tab, go to my own site and post there?"
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /Python (+11) "/* Kartik Prabhu */ added mf2util"
(view diff)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: it's a reasonable challenge
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tantek
commenting / interacting with an indieweb site should be at least as easy if not easier than a silo
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tantek
that's the bar we have to meet
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tantek
and discussing that kind of thing " once I read your site and want to comment, I have to open a new tab, go to my own site and post there?" is 100x more important than *any* discussion of RSS
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KartikPrabhu
yes! and my idea was - have a indie-comment form on a post so that the reader can comment in-place and it uses micropub to post on the reader's own page as a note with in-reply-to
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I'd say keep listening to your friend.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: barnabywalters and I were exploring a "comment" web action
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tantek
form in particular
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tantek
I think he even got something sort of working with a cross-site iframe?
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KartikPrabhu
I made some smart friends in under-grad :P
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: interesting... will explore once I have some manner of micropub setup
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KevinMarks
can we map micropub to existing posting mechanisms?
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: existing as in?
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tantek
KevinMarks++ for fragmentions once more. dang they're useful.
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 33 karma
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal++ for making them actually useful
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Loqi
JonathanNeal has 8 karma
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tantek
KevinMarks, what existing posting mechanisms?
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KevinMarks
the wordpress/blogger/tumblr posting APIs
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kylewm.com
edited /h-feed (+160) "added Superfeedr article about fragment subscriptions"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: since micropub just uses mf2-type semantics, it should be possible to translate it to blogger/wordpress APIs
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tantek.com
edited /webactions (+137) "headings for use cases, to better separate them and make them more obvious"
(view diff)
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snarfed
KevinMarks++ for that blog post
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 34 karma
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kylewm
tantek: can you explain what "feed-framing-blinders" are?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: sounds like a Bridgy opportunity: provide a micropub endpoint wrapper around blogger/wordpress APIs ;)
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snarfed
i have a couple pages of notes about different blog apis, which support multiple providers, etc from when i started implementing webmentions for tumblr/blogger/wp.com
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tantek
kylewm - framing - how an idea is described drives it's discussion and thinking about it
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snarfed
tantek: sure! sadly i have no interest in building that myself, but i'd definitely consider accepting a PR :P
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tantek
feed-framing, short for feed-centric-framing, puts feeds at the center of the discussion (thus errantly putting it above things like UX)
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tantek
*-blinders - when the *-centric framing is so strong as to not just neglect other (more important) consideration like UX, but to completely miss them as if they don't exist
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: tantek: bridgy is doing a lot of things! We should not let it become another "silo-like" dependency for the indieweb
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kylewm
tantek: thanks :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: as long as Bridgy is open source you can always run your own instance
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snarfed
opensource++
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Loqi
opensource has 2 karma
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: tantek means that you are setting up the issue around feeds which is obstructing other ideas etc...
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tantek
kylewm - reference for "framing": http://ttk.me/i/i/1931498717
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes, but I feel it should be more modular. But in some sense bridgy is only doing one thing, 'bridging' the gap to the silos so maybe it is ok :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: would greatly appreciate your additions to http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Inline_Comment_UI regarding what your friend asked you
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tantek
and any brainstorms you may have e.g. using micropub
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kylewm
I don't want to drag this out anymore, but in my defense I was looking at the feed like a feed-reader posting-API ...
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kylewm
a non-proprietary API at that (weren't we looking for examples of those the other day?) :)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: will add :)
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters KartikPrabhu is interested in how to make inline-commenting work per http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Inline_Comment_UI and I remember you had some iframe-based hacks working (or just in mind)? Perhaps time to discuss again!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KartikPrabhu
looks like there are 99 people in IRC now :P
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tantek
kylewm - standalone feed readers are a UX dead end
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tantek
seriously not worth any more effort IMO
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tantek
silos have demonstrated that the path forward with reading UX is *integrated* reading UX
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tantek
(integrated reading/writing)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I get what you are saying, but feed-readers at the moment don't provide any way to read+write
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: hence why they're a dead end
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KartikPrabhu
gosh darnnit tantek! stop beating me to the punchline! :P
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kylewm
I take your points
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kylewm
seems like an "easy" fix with micropub. go barnabywalters go
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JonathanNeal
Thanks KevinMarks :)
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yup that seems to be the idea :D
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: your friend's question is a very good framing of the cross-indie-site commenting challenge. Getting that working will make for an incredible demo.
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tantek
especially when combined with the realtime comments display stuff that aaronpk has working on his site
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: the realtime comment display is really awesome
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tantek
it's that kind of UX awesomeness that has *nothing* do with discussing/debating RSS.
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tantek
RSS is not only "just" plumbing, it is a tiny little box of the plumbing.
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KartikPrabhu
hoping to get the ball rolling on micropub on my site in the coming days, if I have it before IWC-East I might work on the comments thingie in NYC
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KevinMarks
that's why Instapaper's update is interesting, as they added highlighting and posting to their reader
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: where is the post posted from Instapaper? do you know?
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KevinMarks
tumblr/twitter/facebook/app.net/evernote/pinboard
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: Feedly does that too. allows you to customise your "sharing options" also
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KevinMarks
do we have a page for unified reading and writing interfaces?
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tantek
KevinMarks: /reader
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KevinMarks
in some ways, Atom was more of a monoculture problem than RSS
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KevinMarks
'cos the posting API became a fetish, especially at Google with gdata
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tantek
KevinMarks: feel free to document that with examples at /monoculture
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kylewm
so Atom/RSS wars, how did it end? apathy?
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dariusdunlap
Glancing at the feed for the first time today… looks like I’ve got some reading to do! ;-)
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KevinMarks
kylewm: it ended with json
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tantek
kylewm: yes, apathy, as all the users left dead-end reader/blogging UX for silos with new shiny UX, likes, etc.
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tantek
KevinMarks: except there aren't any json feed formats (other than AS 2.0), and certainly no JSON feed consumers / readers.
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tantek
which gives us a window of opportunity with indie readers
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kylewm
I second KartikPrabhu's question about github.com/indieweb, and can we join? :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: for folks in the community to put (somewhat mature?) projects which they're ok with just having anyone in the community drive forward
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KartikPrabhu
yeah how do we python people join that :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: what's your gh username?
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tantek
kylewm - you're added
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kylewm
thanks!!
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tantek
strange icon KartikPrabhu
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: done
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tantek
and now you have similar powers there. use them responsibly :)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: that is some default gravatar thing. I don't like that github uses gravatar which then depends on wordpress blah blah
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gavinc_
KartikPrabhu: Tom Preston-Werner depends on Tom Preston-Werner ;)
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KartikPrabhu
it seems I can now add an image directly
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KartikPrabhu
but it takes a while to update it across the site or something
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@kevinmarks
"@mmasnick: *NOT* to figure out what other properties want to see and then writing to that." #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/469575571916087296)
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KevinMarks
Mike Masnick is making a good indieweb case
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tantek
KevinMarks: that quote is too out of context to be understandable
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@PurelyNicole
RT @benwerd: .@katelosse: "I'm here right now because I realized my favorite platform is writing on my own website." +1 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/469576044060475393)
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: i didn't understand that either
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tantek
KevinMarks: is @mmasnick doing it as a series of disconnected sharecropped tweets a performance act or satire or both? WTF?
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tantek
ah he was venting and is going to write it up properly: https://twitter.com/mmasnick/status/469575996195098624
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@mmasnick
Ok. /rant. I'm going to go write something.
(twitter.com/_/status/469575996195098624)
ngoldman_, scor and dybskiy joined the channel
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sparverius
HWC is not tonight
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tantek.com
edited /Events (-25) "/* Upcoming */ unable to host 2014-06-04 HWC @MozSF - will be away"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell benwerd,snarfed I'm going to be out of town (SF) on 2014-06-04 - could one of you host at another transit-accessible SF location? http://indiewebcamp.com/Events#Upcoming
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
holy backscroll batman
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whaity
hello indieweb i currently use fitocracy to track heath stuff
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whaity
is there a no silo idea for heath tracking?
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aaronpk
whaity: I'm doing a little of that on my site http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
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aaronpk
currently just weight / sleep / pushups, but i've got plans for a bunch more soon
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GWG
I need a vacation
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GWG
What's going on here?
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 46 minutes ago: I'm going to be out of town (SF) on 2014-06-04 - could one of you host at another transit-accessible SF location? http://indiewebcamp.com/Events#Upcoming
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kylewm
did twitter just start letting you attach >1 photo to a tweet? ref https://twitter.com/andigalpern/status/469354917602131968
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kylewm
the API apparently hasn't kept up with that feature
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gRegor`
kylewm: I think multiple photos was introduced about a month ago
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GWG
kylewm: I know the software I've used has for a while
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kylewm
it's cool, but the API needs to keep up!!
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aaronpk
i bet it's just not yet documented in the api
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JonathanNeal
If any of you have started using SVGs, I’m prompting discussion to simplify the markup http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/simple-svg-markup/92 https://twitter.com/jon_neal/status/469597460793262080
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@jon_neal
It should be this easy, <svg src="image.svg#sprite"></svg> http://discourse.specifiction.org/t/simple-svg-markup/92 do you agree?
(twitter.com/_/status/469597460793262080)
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Loqi
xml has -2 karma
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aaronpk
the api is only returning one photo?
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kylewm
yep, as far as i can tell
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kylewm
maybe it's actually represented by two separate tweets...
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tantek
xml--
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Loqi
xml has -3 karma
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aaronpk
gawd that svg markup is ugly
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: can't you use <img src="image.svg" /> ?
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KevinMarks
that's how I embed SVG
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JonathanNeal
I was going to suggest <img src> work and allow CSS fill: color, but I thought that would be too much to implement.
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KevinMarks
how do you mean?
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JonathanNeal
I mean, the magic of <svg> is that it can have or inherit CSS that styles its sub-components. You can colorize icons or parts of icons.
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KevinMarks
oh, I see. Whereas if you use img you don't get that
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KevinMarks
so img is like iframing the CSS
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JonathanNeal
Exactly. This is the same reason folks liked icon fonts. Vectors with color. Except SVGs are much better at that and capable of much more.
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KevinMarks
I'm pro SVG
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JonathanNeal
I love that you always want the most simple markup. Reminds me of your single hash for fragmentions.
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JonathanNeal
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 35 karma
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KevinMarks
well, that would not have broken the ruby URL parser...
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JonathanNeal
well, it is still supported by the script... so go ahead and use it :)
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tantek
JonathanNeal: was there a particular use of SVG on your own site that this was for or … ? (just wondering the indieweb connection)
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KevinMarks
silos hate SVGs
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KevinMarks
they enforce jpeg, png or gif
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KartikPrabhu
I use SVGs a lot like my site logo :)
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JonathanNeal
tantek: here’s my thought and call me out if think I’m off. 1. Indieweb people are people who build their own and tinker, and I think that means they have an overall more rounded understanding of web technology. 2. I build and think in “tools”, so sometimes I don’t feel like I belong to either the “consultant web” or “indie web” category. 1
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JonathanNeal
+ 2 = 3. so I share things here when I think they are things you would use and have more intimate experience with.
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tantek
JonathanNeal: that's reasonable reasoning. The key missing bit is the filter that we try to apply to indieweb conversations, namely selfdogfooding.
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JonathanNeal
If that’s off, I’m totally okay with that and would not discuss my ware of ideas or technologies here, unless it’s requested, like in the case of KevinMarks.
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tantek
That is, there's a bit of an allergic reactions to proposals/discussions of the sort "I think the indieweb would find x useful" if x is not something the proposer is actively using/publishing on their own site.
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KevinMarks
I would use svg if I posted any images <- not an artist
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KevinMarks
though now I want to...
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tantek
KevinMarks: perhaps add that as an "Itch" to scratch on your http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kevinmarks.com page
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tantek
yup - link to that from an "Itches" section on your user page
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KevinMarks
I'm starting to realise that my blog is a collection of old rants
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tantek
you've brought it up enough times as something you're working on ;)
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: if you use xlink currently can you apply CSS to the parts in the embedded svg?
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek
welcome RjRuss!
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RjRuss
well Hello :)
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RjRuss
so I heard about this in a class yesterday....was working getting my own domain...and come to find out....I suck at coming up with domain names!
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tantek
did you try rjruss(.)com ?
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RjRuss
yes...taken
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tantek
do you have a Twitter profile?
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KartikPrabhu
RjRuss: the idea is to have a domain name as your identity so I would suggest your name.com or something
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RjRuss
everything with my name in it is taken unless I do some weird reverse order stuff
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GWG
How about .net?
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GWG
.org?
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tantek
or .me?
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GWG
.co?
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RjRuss
yeah..haha...I hate Twitter...but just started one yesterday as well....figured there was some good people to follow on there
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aaronpk
or .io?
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aaronpk
or .ninja
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RjRuss
I was trying to stick to the .com or .org....
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RjRuss
haha
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aaronpk
(kidding about .ninja)
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RjRuss
.ninja would be super sweet
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KevinMarks
rjruss.org is available
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KartikPrabhu
rjruss.me is available on namecheap.com :)
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KevinMarks
rjruss.codes is $59
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RjRuss
serious? totally tried that... Ithought I did anyway..yeah I was on namecheap....
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RjRuss
so not original though haha
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KevinMarks
I'm looking on hover
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RjRuss
yeah...I am cheap...at least too cheap to spend $59 dollars on a domain name haha
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KevinMarks
rjruss.me is $13
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tantek
how about even shorter - rjr.io?
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KevinMarks
rjr.us is gone
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RjRuss
haha...I did just find rjr.club....sounds like a party haha
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RjRuss
again so unoriginal though..
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aaronpk
in my experience the names/domains I thought were "original" at some point I end up getting tired of
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RjRuss
yeah true
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RjRuss
although I did just find therjr.com
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RjRuss
I may go with that
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RjRuss
didn't think about using just my initials....I was trying my full name..and various versions...see just needed help with the brainstormin....my brain is fried from daily responsibilities lol
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kylewm
rjruss, you said you heard about it in class, was this from Amber's presentation?
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RjRuss
yes
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: yes, if you use xlink you can.
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: however, if you link to an external file, IE9-11 won’t understand, so you have to polyfill.
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KartikPrabhu
and the main purpose of this is to use svgs as icons right?
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@BarnabyWalters
Thanks @jetbrains for giving me a free PHPStorm opensource license to work on Taproot #indieweb tools… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4WCNei/
(twitter.com/_/status/469608586268536832)
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RjRuss
hey are all these addons necessary? the PositiveSSL? webhosting? etc?
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RjRuss
sorry for the elementary questions...
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aaronpk
probably not
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aaronpk
where do you plan on hosting?
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RjRuss
haha...umm..haven't got that far
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KevinMarks
and I just bought svgur.com 'cos I had hover open while talking about SVGs
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aaronpk
in that case, probably best to just get the domain with no addons and figure everything else out later
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RjRuss
so what is the advantage of doing it this way vs. wordpress or similar?
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aaronpk
you can still use wordpress
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RjRuss
okay let me rephrase...in your professional opinion...what is the best route for hosting
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aaronpk
that depends a lot on other things
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aaronpk
what is hosting?
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Loqi
Web hosting is perhaps the primary regular cost in maintaining an Indie Web Site (more expensive than most domain name registrations/renewals) http://indiewebcamp.com/hosting
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GWG
I hear hostgator is cheap
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KartikPrabhu
RJRuss: (not professional) depends on what you want. Some hosts support some website platforms others don't.
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aaronpk
personally I prefer running a VPS so I can run multiple sites and lots of custom stuff, but that's not for everyone
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: right now, icons are a popular way people use SVGs. However, as animation support becomes more widespread and people blog more about them, there will be other uses.
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RjRuss
hmmm sounds like I have some more researching to do then....this is much more complicated than it was 15 years ago...geez things have changed
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aaronpk
it doesn't have to be more complicated than 15 years ago, you can just do whatever you did then
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aaronpk
but there are a few more options now
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: for instance, SVGs would make excellent overlays. Or, I could imagine a Shadow DOM with an embedded SVG that animates the live weather.
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RjRuss
yeah sounds like it
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aaronpk
start wherever you're comfortable
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RjRuss
Thats just ..figuring out where I am comfortable....VPS sounds good when I get the money to do it haha
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aaronpk
digitalocean is pretty cheap for VPSs I hear
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kylewm.com
edited /web_hosting (+202) "/* Shared Hosting */ added asmallorange"
(view diff)
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RjRuss
thanks for the help...off to class
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RjRuss
\quit
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: yes. but for existing use cases, I don't want to put icons in the HTML, they should stay in the CSS. And so I don't really have an opinion for the improved markup you suggest
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: yea, though maybe in the future you can { content: url(path/to/image.svg)
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JonathanNeal
fill: blue
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JonathanNeal
} or { content: url(data:...)
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JonathanNeal
fill: blue
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KartikPrabhu
that i would like! at the moment though I am sticking to icon-fonts, and even then svg font is number one on the font list :)
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 6 minutes ago: KartikPrabhu is interested in how to make inline-commenting work per http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Inline_Comment_UI and I remember you had some iframe-based hacks working (or just in mind)? Perhaps time to discuss again!
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barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: ping
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KartikPrabhu
oh! hi barnabywalters :)
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barnabywalters
good evening
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KartikPrabhu
good very late evening to you :)
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barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: so, the furthest I got with inline web actions was this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RRNLz/
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barnabywalters
like the rest of webaction toolbelt, it is not slick or pretty, but works
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KartikPrabhu
I still haven't researched that webactions page on the wiki yet will look into it
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barnabywalters
I don’t use this particular UI very often because the markup to make it work is only really on one site
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barnabywalters
my current work in this area is to move the inline reply UI to a reader interface, of which I have put together a POC: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4V0Amv/
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KartikPrabhu
basically I was asked by a friend So once I read your site and want to comment, I have to open a new tab, go to my own site and post there?" which is a legitimate UX question for the indieweb
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barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: indeed, an important problem to solve
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aaronpk
you've seen snarfed's UI right? browser bookmarklets
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aaronpk
and benwerd has done some good stuff with a chrome extension for idno
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aaronpk
i mean known
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KartikPrabhu
oo no! moar links for research please :D
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: I’ve not seen snarfed’s particular UI — link?
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barnabywalters
yeah I’ve seen known’s firefox social API integration
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aaronpk
hm trying to think of a url...
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benwerd
right, it's a Firefox Social API integration rather than a browser extension
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aaronpk
oh that was firefox? <me>fail</me>
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi give aaronpk a url
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barnabywalters
Known’s support is the slickest I’ve seen so far
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benwerd
I've been trying to avoid writing browser extensions so far :)
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benwerd
but incidentally the page that loads as part of Firefox is also accessible as a bookmarklet
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benwerd
if not quiiiite as slickly
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barnabywalters
benwerd: have you documented your work with the social API anywhere?
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benwerd
(PS: thanks barnabywalters!)
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KartikPrabhu
so I have been thinking along the lines of a micropub-form (instead of a traditional comment form) that posts a note to the commenter's site as a reply to the current post
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benwerd
barnabywalters: no, but that's a great prompt to do so
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barnabywalters
I think I’ve seen a screencast and heard you mention it, it would be great to be able to read more about how to implement it
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: that sounds like the stuff barnaby did with replacing the action tag with an inline comment form
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aaronpk
the only challenge with micropub is that I may not want to issue access tokens to all the sites I browser
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: yeah that’s my concern as well
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: must look into how micropub actually works... maybe authenticate using IndieAuth and then post to site?
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barnabywalters
I’m not thrilled about moving all of these interactions out of our personal sites and into an integrated reader, but I think that’s going to be the best overall approach
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KartikPrabhu
I mean isn't that what twitter does?
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: i'm coming to that conclusion as well
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aaronpk
especially as that's how everything has been evolving anyway
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kylewm
barnabywalters: your notes posting interface, i mean if you just stuck that on a post permalink page with in-reply-to pre-filled, isn't that basically a micropub comment form?
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: that is what I was going for
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barnabywalters
kylewm: sure, but the site has to have my access token, i.e. has to have permission to POST AS ME
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barnabywalters
that is *not* a permission I want to give random sites I reply to
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kylewm
gotch
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barnabywalters
we could introduce a new micropub scope for just commenting, or limit the time span
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aaronpk
still tho, not sure I want to go that route
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aaronpk
I would rather my browser keep the tokens and know how to post as me
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barnabywalters
but then there a bunch of other problems, like everyone now having to implement micropub, and then all commenting UIs being different
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barnabywalters
both of which are solved by inline webactions, but they’re a little clunky
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emmak
assuming you already have a cookie/token for your own site, couldn't the comment button just foward you to the micropub endpoint on your own site?
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barnabywalters
personally I’d rather keep micropub simple and move the responsibility to the user’s reader application
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emmak
possibly with some redirect parameter, to take you back to the site you're commenting on
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KartikPrabhu
barnabywalters: diff commenting UIs are a good thing IMO
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aaronpk
emmak: yes that would work, but is kind of out of scope of micropub since that involves cookies
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KartikPrabhu
has clearly not thought of all things... hmm
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barnabywalters
emmak: that’s an interesting idea
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barnabywalters
there’s still a lot of risk there though
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aaronpk
although still leaves a potential attack vector of the other person's site putting in other properties
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barnabywalters
(aaronpk beat me to it)
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barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: this is a complex problem :)
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KartikPrabhu
should implement micropub to think more concretely
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emmak
to explain in more detail, the comment button would forward you to some landing page on your own site, log you in if necessary, confirm the comment you are about to post, and then take you back to the original site
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: that’s part of the thinking behind webactions — clicking a button on someone elses site doesn’t perform the action, it pre-fills your UI for performing the action
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KartikPrabhu
to add to that.... the landing page could just be a GET version of the micropub endpoint
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barnabywalters
emmak: that makes sense
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emmak
aaronpk: i guess this is similar to your two-factor auth concept
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barnabywalters
trust-less micropub clients is an interesting idea
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aaronpk
I really like the idea of micropub clients pre-filling things and then directing me to my own interface where I approve/finalize the request
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barnabywalters
emmak: yeah, and current webaction implementations — enter data in a convenient, untrusted location, confirm posting in a trusted location
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aaronpk
would alos give me a chance to add stuff to the post that the other site may not know about, like adding tags, or adding location data
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KartikPrabhu
likes this redirect idea
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aaronpk
now I want to go build that
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KartikPrabhu
neat! I'll get on doing micropub...
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aaronpk
oh so after I sign in with indieauth (just to identify myself, no access token generated), barnaby's comment form could set the action to my micropub endpoint. but there'd be no access token. so my micropub endpoint upon getting a request with no access token could handle that appropriately
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barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: check out http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/new if you want to test your micropub endpoint :)
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: that would also protect against implementations getting access tokens wrong
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barnabywalters
it’s actually a user-friendly way of dealing with bad tokens!
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aaronpk
interesting!!
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barnabywalters
good thinking emmak
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Loqi
emmak has 2 karma
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barnabywalters
ha ha this is so easy to implement, too
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aaronpk
quick someone document this on /micropub in a new #Comments section
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KartikPrabhu
is switching locations... here we go
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waterpigs.co.uk
created /Firefox (+214) "very stub"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
benwerd: ^^^ I stubbed a Firefox page with a SocialAPI section for you :)
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barnabywalters
what is Firefox?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Firefox (+6) "fix dfn markup"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
thanks aaronpk
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aaronpk
somewhat confusingly, the <dfn> markup only goes around the term, not the whole sentence
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aaronpk
wikis are the greatest <3
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benwerd
barnabywalters: thank you. will take a look at adding something in a bit
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barnabywalters
huh. I’ll stick to adding manual p-summary in future
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aaronpk
nah the parser does a good job of finding the sentence now
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barnabywalters
goes back to building a reader