#indiewebcamp

2014-06-09

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@ShaneHudson
@puellavulnerata @ioerror Take a look at #indieweb :) (twtr.io/nDdhm9v2ts)
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jonnybarnes
hey guys
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jonnybarnes
aaronpk: have you seen this?
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jonnybarnes
https://github.com/lazerwalker/Theseus
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jonnybarnes
its a personal analytics tool, I think similar to somethin you've made for yourself
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barnabywalters
acegiak: was it you who added microformats2 to blackwoolholiday.com?
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barnabywalters
the h-entries on the homepage don’t have datetimes, so my current reader implementation always shows them at the top: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/feed/
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barnabywalters
in order to prevent this from happening (both by accident and on purpose), it looks like three things need to be done on the reader side:
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barnabywalters
check datetimes of incoming posts and cap them at the present if they say they’re in the future
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acegiak
barnabywalters: huh. "add mf2 to blackwoolholiday.com" is on my todo list?
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barnabywalters
acegiak: ah, it must be classic microformats being converted
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barnabywalters
2: replace blank datetimes with the current datetime
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acegiak
i use either supplied datetime of first readtime
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barnabywalters
3: prevent *published* datetimes from being updated,
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acegiak
s/of/or/
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Loqi
acegiak meant to say: i use either supplied datetime or first readtime
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@mlleroulleau
How we're on the verge of an amazing new open web #indieweb - http://werd.io/2014/how-were-on-the-verge-of-an-amazing-new-open (twtr.io/nDjmsCbWWR)
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barnabywalters
what are timezones?
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barnabywalters
come on Loqi
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Loqi
who, me?
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barnabywalters
what is a timezone?
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Loqi
http://indiewebcamp.com/timezone
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /timezone (-8) (view diff)
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bnvk
what is a waterpig?
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bnvk
damn it
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Loqi
hehe
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barnabywalters
bnvk: even Loqi does not know that
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barnabywalters
it is the greatest secret
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /h-entry (+1653) "/* Using h-entry */ linked to h-feed consumption algorithm, fleshed out per-h-entry algorithm with link to comment-presentation, datetime determination process, stubbed algorithm for handling updates, issues section w/ comment merge issue" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /feed (+117) "/* How To Consume */ linked to h-entry consumption" (view diff)
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bnvk
what are notifications?
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Loqi
notifications in the context of the IndieWeb refer to all forms and ways that an independent web site can receive a message indicating something of interest (server notifications), and potentially relay that information (preferably in realtime) to one or more devices used by the owner of that site (client notifications) http://indiewebcamp.com/notifications
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petermolnar
offtopic:
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petermolnar
what is a waterpig? -> reminds me when my father showed HELP WOMBAT on VMS:
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petermolnar
http://zinser.no-ip.info/vms/fun/fun_dtr.htmlx
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /location (+1535) "documented location derivation algorithm" (view diff)
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bnvk
petermolnar: I have a strange memory of my dad and wombat as well
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barnabywalters
anyone who consumes h-entry data, for your review: http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry#How_to_consume_h-entry
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barnabywalters
anyone who publishes/consumes location data, for your review: http://indiewebcamp.com/location#How_to_determine_the_location_of_a_microformat
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bnvk
OMG, I hate the wiki
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bnvk
it logs me out every hr
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bnvk
and just deleted my content
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barnabywalters
bnvk: huh, I thought aaronpk fixed the first issue — what caused the second?
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bnvk
the forms post data getting lost as I had to go log back in
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barnabywalters
aw crap :(
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brennannovak.com
edited /follow (+955) (view diff)
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bnvk
phew, thank goodness for Chromes aggressive page caching
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barnabywalters
bnvk: I’ve rescued form data from browser caches in the filesystem before :)
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bnvk
oh wow
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barnabywalters
bnvk: regarding temporary following, I’ve implemented it and really enjoy it: http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/people-ive-talked-to-recently/
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barnabywalters
though there are some issues which need resolving, which I will document
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barnabywalters
back to actual work now though
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bnvk
nice
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barnabywalters
temporary follow and context-sensitive following (e.g. event, location) is high up on my list of things to have in my feed reader
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@simonaclifford
How we're on the verge of an amazing new open web #indieweb - http://werd.io/2014/how-were-on-the-verge-of-an-amazing-new-open (twtr.io/nDz90y1Ay8)
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@_EFFECT
A new book on the science of self 'Me, Myself and Why' and other links http://www.wordyard.com/2014/06/06/links-indieweb-optimism-ouellettes-self-analysis-native-advertisings-scam/ via @scottros (twtr.io/nDzHi2dP_Q)
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@luxagraf
Nothing to see here, just testing a new feature on my site, posting to twitter from my own admin. because, why not? #indieweb (twtr.io/nE1sox3gDb)
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luxagraf
cool, it worked
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barnabywalters
nice work luxagraf! I see your notes here https://luxagraf.net/notes/
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barnabywalters
looking beautiful, and nicely marked up
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barnabywalters
consider making the h-adr a p-location property of the h-entries instead of a child, and adding authorship of some form
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barnabywalters
either nested h-cards, a page(feed)-level h-card or just a rel=author link
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Loqi
[mention] https://petermolnar.eu/journal/indieweb-decentralize-web-centralizing-ourselves/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi
[mention] https://petermolnar.eu/journal/indieweb-decentralize-web-centralizing-ourselves/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/silo (webmention)
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Loqi
[mention] https://petermolnar.eu/journal/indieweb-decentralize-web-centralizing-ourselves/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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Loqi
[mention] https://petermolnar.eu/journal/indieweb-decentralize-web-centralizing-ourselves/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (webmention)
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petermolnar
oops
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petermolnar
url change again, I need to do something about this
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luxagraf
if I were to add an h-card globally, say to my site footer, is that enough to convey authorship for any h-entries on the page?
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jonnybarnes
luxagraf: my experience is it really depends on the consuming software
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petermolnar
in theory the fallback should be the global (if set) in case there's no author for the h-entry itself
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tantek
petermolnar: are you sending a webmention for the old URL that redirects to the new URL?
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tantek
because I think that part is your responsibility (as publisher)
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tantek
then those receiving the webmention can note it as an "update" rather than a "new" webmention for a URL
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petermolnar
to be honest, I'm only using the wordpress webmention plugin and I haven't checked deep enough what's it really doing
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petermolnar
but I will
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@SharingNetworks
How we're on the verge of an amazing new open web #indieweb http://werd.io/2014/how-were-on-the-verge-of-an-amazing-new-open (twtr.io/nE9FCC3WmQ)
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: RE page-wide author, that’s one of the major use-cases of h-feed: http://indiewebcamp.com/feed
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barnabywalters
http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#Why
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bret
is the wiki supposed to keep me logged in?
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bret
i pretty much have to log in every new session
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bnvk
bret: glad I'm not the only one having that problem
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luxagraf
jonnybarnes: yeah, see that's what I don't want to rely on
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: i take it that the h-card needs to be a child of h-feed?
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: it should be the author property — e.g. see how my homepage feed parses: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2F
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barnabywalters
because you’re saying that this h-card is the *author* of the feed
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: got it
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aaronpk
bnvk: go here and check "remember my login" http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Preferences
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aaronpk
then you'll never be logged out again
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barnabywalters
bret: ^^^^^
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aaronpk
bret: you too http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Preferences
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bnvk
ok
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bret
rgr
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bret
wasnt aware of that setting
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aaronpk
normally there's a checkbox on the login screen but I don't know where it went
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Loqi
shaners: tantek left you a message on 6/5 at 1:32pm: my current web host setup has a 50MB/month bandwidth cap.
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Loqi
shaners: tantek left you a message on 6/5 at 1:33pm: not 50MB, but 50GB monthly bandwidth limit
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shaners
!tell tantek: wow. Do you think you're serving more than 50gb of mostly just HTML/CSS/JS or do you have some wildly popular images/videos/audio?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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shaners
aaronpk: how does Loqi know which gendered pronoun to use?
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Loqi
grins profusely
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bnvk
!tell caseorganic can't wait to see you in Iceland
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bnvk
hrm
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barnabywalters
for some reason it’s a bit creepy to think that aaronpk has a list of our genders somewhere
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shaners
!tell bnvk clever test.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters
I wonder…
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shaners
!tell barnabywalters i wonder if Loqi is infer from our IWC wiki pages
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters
!tell brennannovak blah blah blah blah
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Loqi
barnabywalters: shaners left you a message 10 seconds ago: i wonder if Loqi is infer from our IWC wiki pages
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bnvk
!tell erinjo yo, just testing out something
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shaners
s/infer/inferring/
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Loqi
shaners meant to say: !tell barnabywalters i wonder if Loqi is inferring from our IWC wiki pages
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Loqi
bnvk: shaners left you a message 1 minute ago: clever test.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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barnabywalters
what is Loqi
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Loqi
http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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shaners
who is Loqi
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barnabywalters
Loqi is struggling a bit today
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shaners
we are slamming it/he/she pretty hard with this ridiculousness. ;)
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shaners
hang in there, Loqi
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bnvk
hehe
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aaronpk
the best part about Loqi is that people always assume he is smarter than he is
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aaronpk
also see: #indiechat if you want to spam the bot
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bnvk
it's like an inverted uncanny valley
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barnabywalters
bnvk: uncanny mountain, perhaps?
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Loqi
tantek: shaners left you a message 6 minutes ago: wow. Do you think you're serving more than 50gb of mostly just HTML/CSS/JS or do you have some wildly popular images/videos/audio?
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jonnybarnes
so, h-feed, am I fine adding that to my /notes page? Or should I be getting the notes in to my homepage as well (I'd rather not for now)
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jonnybarnes
does the indiechat room get logged anywhere?
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aaronpk
jonnybarnes: not publicly, but you have to assume everyone's clients are logging it
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: if you want to add h-feed markup to your notes feed then go for it
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barnabywalters
you only really start to see the benefit if you’re taking advantage of the feed authorship discovery though
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jonnybarnes
cool
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luxagraf
been looking at various people's use of <action>, is there a reference anywhere for the possible values of "do"?
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shaners
luxagraf have you seen http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions ?
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tantek
shaners - mostly XML/HTML
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tantek
lots of hits on index.html and updates.atom
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tantek
especially by bad bots
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tantek
so I'm blocking them :(
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shaners
wow. i didn't realize you were getting that slammed with traffic.
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aaronpk
how are you blocking them?
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tantek
.htaccess
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tantek
apache rewrite rules
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tantek
needs to write this up on the wiki
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aaronpk
ah cool
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tantek
since it's obviously a bit of indieweb maintenance foo
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tantek
might as well admit to it and document it to help others
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tantek
also something that web hosting companies could compete on
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tantek
I'd really like my web host to auto detect bad bots
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tantek
e.g. IE5.5 User Agent requesting 20 pages a second? I don't think so.
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shaners
haha. that's so fast clicking.
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Loqi
hehe
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tantek
like just a "suspicious clients" section on the stats page
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tantek
suspicious UAs
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tantek
suspicious IPs
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tantek
etc.
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aaronpk
that sounds like a valuable service one could provide
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tantek
with a BLOCK button next to each
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tantek
so I could just check it and be like yeah, block that
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aaronpk
doesn't even necessarily have to happen at the web host level if you point your domain to a proxy and the proxy does the service
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tantek
or even auto-blocking an IP or UA based on THEM exceeding specific bandwidth caps
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iamshane.com
created /Jlsuttles (+31) "Jlsuttles => User:Jlsuttles.me" (view diff)
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iamshane.com
created /jlsuttles (+31) "Jlsuttles => User:jlsuttles.me" (view diff)
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iamshane.com
edited /User:Iamshane.com (-3) "the => a" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
tantek: aaronpk: pretty sure this is one of the services cloudflare offer
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barnabywalters
but I’ve heard mixed things about them and never used them mysefl
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barnabywalters
s/mysefl/myself
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: but I’ve heard mixed things about them and never used them myself
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aaronpk
https://www.cloudflare.com/features-security
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aaronpk
"We never charge for bandwidth. CloudFlare will never bill you for bandwidth usage. We believe if your site suddenly gets popular or suffers an attack, you shouldn't have to dread your bandwidth bill."
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barnabywalters
argh — is anyone else having apache segfault issues on debian with PHP?
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aaronpk
ugh. I don't use apache or debian.
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luxagraf
shaners: thanks, i had, but it suggests "props" for "favorite", which is a word that will never appear on site, code or otherwise
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luxagraf
so I'm going with barnabywalters bookmark
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shaners
i agree. personally, not a fan of "props".
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: maybe I need to set up nginx finally
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Loqi
caseorganic: bnvk left you a message 39 minutes ago: can't wait to see you in Iceland
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caseorganic
bnvk: me too! it will be fantasticz!
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luxagraf
if I were going to venture a criticism of indiewebcamp it would be in the naming choices
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bnvk
caseorganic: hehe, I was also just testing Loqi's gender prowess
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iamshane.com
created /User:Jlsuttles.me (+1404) "Adds IWC wiki profile for JLSuttles" (view diff)
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caseorganic
bnvk: i believe Loqi uses "they". :)
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Loqi
who, me?
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bnvk
but sometimes Loqi says "he" as well
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shaners
luxagraf: naming things is hard
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luxagraf
shaners: the hardest part I think
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: feel free to suggest better names, and obviously to use them on your own site
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aaronpk
naming things is one of the two hardest problems in computer science. the other being cache invalidation and off-by-one errors.
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: in this case I like yours, so I'm using bookmark
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shaners
who is jlsuttles
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shaners
Loqi, are you out there?
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aaronpk
shaners: the "who is" draws from the irc-people page
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shaners
oooh
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barnabywalters
who is barnabywalters?
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Loqi
http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Waterpigs.co.uk
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barnabywalters
nifty
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iamshane.com
edited /IRC_People (+60) "Adds jlsuttles to list" (view diff)
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shaners
who is jlsuttles
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aaronpk
might take a minute for the cache to catch up... speaking of caching
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shaners
HA!
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aaronpk
also spam the bot in #indiechat
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kylewm.com
edited /kylewm (-29) "Blanked the page" (view diff)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronparecki.com * deleted "[[kylewm]]": Empty Content
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kylewm
thanks aaronpk, I was just about to ask you to do that
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aaronpk
np
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GWG
lunchtime
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kylewm
luxagraf: curious what other names stick out as being bad to you? props'
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kylewm
other than props*
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GWG
props?
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Aaronparecki.com * deleted "[[gRegor`]]": gRegor` requested deletion
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luxagraf
kylewm: facepile, selfdogfooding
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aaronpk
facepile was not coined here
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gRegor`
Nor was selfdogfooding, right?
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GWG
I don't like facepile as a word, but it is what it is.
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luxagraf
kylewm: i don't have any better words at the moment, but i think this matters for getting (esp) level 2 people involved
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aaronpk
there's been a lot of talk about finding a better word than selfdogfooding
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GWG
It is like complaining about calling ketchup ketchup instead of catsup
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luxagraf
yeah I know, dog fooding esp goes way back, but they get used all over the wiki
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aaronpk
i'd be happy to use a different word but there hasn't been a good one found yet
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GWG
luxagraf, shouldn't we use language that exists over new nomenclature?
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luxagraf
GWG: I disagree. how you describe things makes them what they are
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kylewm
we got a real Wittgenstein over here!
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GWG
I was more commenting on the public consciousness
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luxagraf
GWG: not when the inherited language is part of the problem you're trying to solve
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GWG
luxagraf, why do we call it a bathroom?
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luxagraf
well, yeah I am a writer, but i don;t think you have to be a writer to recognize that selfdogfooding is not exactly the most appealing phrase to describe something
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luxagraf
GWG: I have no idea
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gRegor`
selfsteakfooding (selftofooding for the vegans)
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etymancer
tofood++
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Loqi
tofood has 1 karma
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GWG
luxagraf, I am sort of playing devil's advocate here
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barnabywalters
“practising what you preach” is a similar phrase
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kylewm
GWG: water closet?
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gRegor`
I was going for tofu+fooding and just shortened it :)
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: yup, and much better
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GWG
kylewm, I like fecal
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kylewm
that's... disturbing?
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luxagraf
and indexed :)
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luxagraf
I plan to write something up on this eventually.
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gregorlove.com
edited /selfdogfood (+131) "/* Discussion */ starting to document the discussion about a more appealing term." (view diff)
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kylewm
does 'selfdogfooding' even apply to gen 2 people? presumably they'd be using tools built by others
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GWG
kylewm, lavatory? head?
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GWG
kylewm, tools under your control vs not
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gregorlove.com
edited /selfdogfood (+80) "/* Discussion */" (view diff)
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gRegor`
Document away: http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood#Discussion
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GWG
Even gui website tools are still creation
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kylewm
I guess you are still creating on your own site, whether you are doing the plumbing or not
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kylewm
GWG: beat me to it. you're right, thanks :)
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GWG
kylewm, I installed my plumbing. I did not forge the pipes
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gRegor`
I think even the simple phrase "use your own product" might be better. UYOP to acronymize it.
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GWG
So, luxagraf, what is your suggested term to replace Facepile?
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aaronpk
i think facepile is cute, what's wrong with it?
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bnvk
I like all things *pile
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gRegor`
I don't find Facepile problematic since it's specific to Facebook.
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bnvk
other candidates:
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bnvk
- stack
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GWG
But the design element is reproduced on other sites
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gRegor`
They coined it, so it's kind of a proper noun for the design pattern.
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onewheelskyward
Much like xerox, kleenex, etc
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barnabywalters
HUMAN-ORIENTED RESPONSE GRID 5000®
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gRegor`
Wheras selfdogfooding is a principle, a fun(ny) slang for "use your own product"
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iamshane.com
edited /Amazon_S3 (+412) "date edge S3+Cloudfront usage and billing" (view diff)
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gRegor`
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 42 karma
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gRegor`
I use model 5001, barnabywalters. 5000 is sooo last year. :)
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bnvk
such a hipster
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gRegor`
I burned my mouth eating pizza before it was cool.
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: well I’M SORRY YOU FEEL THAT WAY. HORG5000 forever
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GWG
How about artisanal content creation?
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gRegor`
Haha
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luxagraf
so long as you think of your own product as food for dogs.
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kylewm
searching "Use your own product", found a nice pro-selfdogfooding article https://medium.com/binary-times/use-your-own-product-or-die-ba3e2d738a55
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iamshane.com
edited /web_hosting (+91) "/* Amazon S3 */" (view diff)
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gRegor`
took "use your own product" from wikipedia
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luxagraf
the wikipedia page has a suggestion from the criticism section "drinking our own champagne"
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aaronpk
hopes his manual POSSE to twitter and facebook is properly picked up by bridgy this time
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luxagraf
which at least sounds better to people who've never heard the joke
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gregorlove.com
edited /Template:gRegor (-1) (view diff)
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bnvk
aaronpk: mine worked fine the other day
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gregorlove.com
edited /selfdogfood (+92) "/* Discussion */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /selfdogfood (+49) "/* Discussion */" (view diff)
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: took your advice: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fluxagraf.net%2Fnotes%2F2014%2F06%2Fvoter-id-laws
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: nice work! for p-location to actually be a nested property it’ll need to be class=“p-location h-adr”
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barnabywalters
this is a perfect test for my location detection code!
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barnabywalters
nice URLs too
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gRegor`
Weird that medium.com doesn't list the full published date in the visible HTML. Just "Jan 16" kylewm
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gRegor`
They list the full published time in <meta property="article:published_time">
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barnabywalters
what even is that
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gRegor`
Ya got me
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: is h-adr not in there anymore? crap, i think i pushed the wrong branch the server. i'll fix that. thanks
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@carlos28936
Nunca se sabe, pero esto tiene pinta de ser el futuro. How we're on the verge of an amazing new open web #indieweb - http://werd.io/2014/how-were-on-the-verge-of-an-amazing-new-open (twtr.io/nEQmfjSteF)
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gregorlove.com
edited /Medium (+294) "/* Criticism */ Full published date not in visible HTML, but in a meta element." (view diff)
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kylewm
aaronpk: which thing did you manually posse to facebook/twitter?
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gRegor`
Ok, medium displays the full date for older articles.
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gRegor`
But I guess since the one kylewm linked to is from 2014, it just lists "Jan 16"
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: okay, fixed.
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: looking good!
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gregorlove.com
edited /Medium (+272) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: this is how your feed looks in my feed testing UI: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/screen-shot-2014-06-09-at-184936.png
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bret
oh yeah luxagraf++ for getting notes working!
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gRegor`
barnabywalters: meta article:published_time is Open Graph Protocol, apparently.
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gregorlove.com
edited /Medium (+48) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: seems about right. what's name and why is it false?
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: that’s a helpful property aaronpk’s comment-presentation code adds — if name exists and is not false, then it should be shown as well as the content (e.g. an article). if it’s false, don’t show it (e.g. a note)
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gregorlove.com
edited /Medium (+6) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
because microformats will always have a name property, you have you figure out whether or not to show it
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luxagraf
barnabywalters: ah, makes sense
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barnabywalters
most of the other weirdly named/duplicate properties are just there for indexing purposes
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luxagraf
now i just need to set up webmentions
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luxagraf.net
edited /User:Luxagraf.net (+21) (view diff)
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kylewm
luxagraf: didn't realize you were in Athens. neat, I grew up in Marietta
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luxagraf
kylewm: are you still around here? I've been thinking there needs to be indiewebcamp south
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kylewm
luxagraf: no, i'm just another sf bay area transplant now. kinda wish i were there to start iwc south with you!
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luxagraf
kylewm: too bad. i think i'll do the first iwc microcamp
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luxagraf
kylewm: just me, sitting at the new brewery thinking about microformats :)
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kylewm
haha, well that doesn't sound terrible
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luxagraf
This might be an interesting data point to add the webactions page: http://css-tricks.com/poll-results-sharing-buttons/
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tantek
luxagraf: definitely! please add it
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luxagraf
tantek: trying to figure out where to put it
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tantek
luxagraf - perhaps a subsection of http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Drop_Social_Buttons ?
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tantek
since "60% I don't ever use sharing buttons. I share my own way."
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tantek
that's pretty harsh criticism
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tantek
subsection "considered visual clutter" :)
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tantek
(quoted from that URL)
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@Johannes_Ernst
Hey @benwerd, any chance Known will talk MySQL by #indiewebcamp? Would be cool to run it on #IndieBox. http://upon2020.com/banter/?p=273 (twtr.io/nEUUXr7n7j)
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luxagraf.net
edited /webactions (+91) "added link to css-tricks survey" (view diff)
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luxagraf
Is there a facebook equivalent to twitter's /intent/ urls?
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luxagraf
it appears facebook uses http://www.facebook.com/sharer.php?u=
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@AngieLandazabal
RT @microformats: #Brighton #microformats2 parsing meetup @glennjones @t tomorrow 2013-257 10:45 @Taylor_St http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2013-09-14-microformats2-parsing #indieweb (twtr.io/nEZ_Gr5kfG)
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aaronpk
sounds like we need a http://indiewebcamp.com/redirect page
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j12t
Hey everybody, a bit of self-promition here, but INC magazine has a great article today titled “The Revolution Will Not Be Monetized” that quotes your’s truly.
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benwerd
FYI: the elearning Domain of One's Own project, which overlaps massively with the indie web, is having a hackathon in LA on July 19-20.
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j12t
http://www.inc.com/magazine/201407/ceo-of-wickr-leads-social-media-resistance-movement.html
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benwerd
They aim to give students a domain of their own, and encourage them to post to their own sites.
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aaronpk
rascul: kylewm: there are well documented ways to do http redirects with html pages
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tantek
benwerd that's awesome!!!
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benwerd
they are very keen for indie web folks to join them
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rascul
aaronpk more than just meta tags?
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aaronpk
that's the one
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aaronpk
meta equiv
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rascul
yeah that and a js one
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benwerd
j12t - sorry to talk over you. That's really cool!
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rascul
i might be able to do some lua-ing to nginx for a niftier solution though but that won't be until later
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j12t
No probl, IRC is multithreaded/
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aaronpk
i believe google will follow the meta redirect too tho
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j12t
Not a bad article either.
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rascul
that's good if google follows it
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rascul
i could make a thing with flask to listen on /a and redirect to /articles/whatever also
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aaronpk
https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/79812?hl=en
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rascul
ooo there it is the refresh one
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kylewm
rascul: slippery slope, that
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rascul
yeah when i get to it i'll figure out which way is gonna work the best for me
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aaronpk
j12t: congrats on the article!
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j12t
thanks aaronpk
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j12t
always interesting and surprising to see what, after a long interview, makes it into an article …
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tantek.com
edited /fragmention (-436) "incorporate overview into definition, move TOC down" (view diff)
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bret
aaronpk test subscribing to http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http://caseorganic.com/notes and http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http://aaronparecki.com/notes provides a better atom feed than your current one that lacks images, other than lacking a proper feed title
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aaronpk
oh cool
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aaronpk
maybe time to drop my atom rendering
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bear
rascul - I'm adding an example in /nginx of how I solved the redirects issue for a static web site
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tantek
hey KevinMarks I just mentioned fragmentions at the W3C AC meeting
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Loqi
bear: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 6/5 at 8:09pm: do you know any good references on how to make a good requirements.txt where the requirements might be from a github repo to have the latest bleeding-edge stuff? trying to make by blog stuff open on github
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Loqi
bear: KartikPrabhu left you a message 2 days ago: ronkyuu doesn't actually use mf2py but it is in the requirements with an older version. Should I just remove it?
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tantek
and pointed out that it extends URL
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bear
KartikPrabhu - I always just feed the output of "pip freeze" to requirements.txt
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bear
so I get the formatting proper
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bear
!tell KartikPrabhu your answer about requirements.txt -- I always feed the output of "pip freeze" to requirements.txt so I ensure that it will be machine readable when put into the repo or docs
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
bear: got it :)
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bear
:)
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: bear left you a message 13 seconds ago: your answer about requirements.txt -- I always feed the output of "pip freeze" to requirements.txt so I ensure that it will be machine readable when put into the repo or docs
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bear
and yes please do remove older lib refs
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@benwerd
@hjarche Agree completely! That's why we're doing what we're doing both at @withknown & #indieweb - bringing that back. (twtr.io/nEc6KeF0LJ)
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KartikPrabhu
bear: alrighty. though I still think mf2py should be used in ronkyuu somehow. will look into that as well
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bear
agree - it should definitely be used - having ours have "almost" implementations of things that are in mf2py leads to fragmentation (the bad kind)
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bear
we should support mf2py by using it and also contributing back to it
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Loqi
yea
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KartikPrabhu
bear: sweet... I'll see how to go about doing that soon
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bear.im
edited /Nginx (+406) "add sample on how to do url redirect routing" (view diff)
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bear.im
edited /Nginx (+8) "/* static site example */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
so looking at the people based communication links. now that google hangouts has updated to merge sms and hangouts, sms: links will kind of get you to their google hangout, but then you have share your phone number and they have to already have your contacts merged
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rascul
bear thanks that looks pretty easy to do
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bear
it's very easy yea
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bret
Some notes from the reboot rss meetin in NY? https://github.com/Reboot-RSS/reboot-rss/issues
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bret
I think NY
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KartikPrabhu
I am quite confused by the "simplify subscriptions" bit... most feed reader that I know (at least Feedly) auto discovers feed links from the main url. If website/browsers have a "subscribe" button what is it supposed to do?
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KartikPrabhu
I mean what happens once I click the "subscribe" button?
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jonnybarnes
pooh: https://jonnybarnes.net/note/82
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@indiecomputing
Why having your e-mail on somebody else's cloud is a bad idea: they may not let you have it. #indieweb http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/03/us-yahoo-email-terminated-idUSKBN0EE22P20140603 (twtr.io/nEfrM1ouYY)
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bret
It seems like friend/follow/subscribe could make a good webaction
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KartikPrabhu
must read up on what webactions do...
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bret
KartikPrabhu: basically, when demoing cross site commenting, it became clear that unless the UI can match that of the silos, its going to be a silly round about process
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bret
so webactions are user definable html tags that trigger actions
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bret
with a fallback for users who have not defined an action
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KartikPrabhu
bret: so the readers define the action or the site author?
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bret
this allows for a reply button to live on an indieweb post just like the reply button lives next to a tweet
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bret
KartikPrabhu: action handling is done with an extension right now iirc
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bret
but you could trigger a link back to your posting interface with a reply url as a param
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bret
right from that persons website
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aaronpk
you know how the tweet button pops up a preview window on twitter.com where you can change the text before tweeting?
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aaronpk
that's basically what we were outlining here http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Micropub_for_Comments
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KartikPrabhu
so in the case of feed subscribing this would mean that the reader has their own feed-reader at some URL
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bret
ohhh that makes sense
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barnabywalters
good evening #indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters
anyone who consumes h-entry data, please review this: http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry#How_to_consume_h-entry
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barnabywalters
and add/clarify/raise issues/discuss here
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KartikPrabhu
this setup assumes that people reading a website have their own site including at least some feed-subscription mechanism. Seems like a lot of backbone that RSS people are not thinking of
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barnabywalters
anyone who publishes or consumes location data, please review http://indiewebcamp.com/location#How_to_determine_the_location_of_a_microformat and ditto
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: what setup?
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: the webactions and the micropub for comments one
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aaronpk
it's a lot of uncharted territory.
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aaronpk
likely will be a big focus of indiewebcamp this year!
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KartikPrabhu
yes. I wonder what the RSS folks are talking about then
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /h-entry (+0) "/* How to consume h-entry */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
bret: any idea what "subscribe easily" means without the indieweb context?
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aaronpk
oh are you talkoing about this? https://github.com/Reboot-RSS/reboot-rss/issues missed that somehow
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yes. webactions would work in the indieweb context. but then what are the RSS folks talking about?
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KartikPrabhu
if the goal is to make subscribing "as easy as silos" then "install this add-on to your browser and add this setting to it" is not a solution
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bret
KartikPrabhu: he means its hard right now to use a feed reader
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KartikPrabhu
no I understand the goal.
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bret
you have to a) enable button on your browser or b) install a discovery tool/extension
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bret
im trying to point out that subscribe is merely another action that should be apart of the html interface
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aaronpk
people always forget about the bookmarks bar. you can do so much cool stuff with it and it's really easy to put things there.
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bret
aaronpk, yeah I use bookmarklets a lot
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aaronpk
and "installing" things there is just making a web page and saying "drag this link up here"
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bret
but those are like, http://memeguy.com/photos/images/tim-and-eric-mind-explosion-gif--41769.gif for lots of people
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bret
plus it goes against the goal of matching silo ux
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bret
its a good fallback for sure
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aaronpk
it would be useful to have this so-called ideal silo UX documented somewhere
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bret
KartikPrabhu: right, you cant make feeds as easy as a silo, you just have to support a silo as a fallback
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bret
but in the context of feeds, it could be the other fallback
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KartikPrabhu
bret: hmm didn't understand that at all... which silo? who chooses it?
#
bret
as the site owner you choose
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bret
its a fallback
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bret
just as silos make decisions for most people
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bret
feed readers are never going to be as easy as just using a silo
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rascul
thunderbird makes it easy as email
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KartikPrabhu
hmm i thought that was the intended goal of that discussion
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bret
oh gawd
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bret
;)
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bret
KartikPrabhu: well, it at least drives awareness of a feeds existance?
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bret
im trying to keep the discussion within the framing
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bret
at least in the repo
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KartikPrabhu
bret: sure thing. I'll keep an eye on it :)
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KartikPrabhu
just trying to understand the question that RSS people are trying to solve
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bret
adding webmention endpoints to a feed, is that so the reader does not have to parse html to find it?
#
bret
KartikPrabhu: I think its a similar issue to what we are trying to solve, but more attached to rss
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bret
but then you dont really have rss without html
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aaronpk
that thread seems entirely too RSS centric
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KartikPrabhu
bret: yes. but the trouble is RSS does not have the backbone of the indieweb, with everyone owning their sites and all that
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bret
i think feed readers have a huge potential as micropub clients
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aaronpk
you guys are making me want to BUILD ALL THE THINGS ! stop it!
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bret
KartikPrabhu: most people who i meet that use rss dont activly publish
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bret
so its incredibly limiting to the options when you are in that boat
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KartikPrabhu
bret: I'm sure they actively publish on silos
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barnabywalters
bret: agreed. working on it right now, in fact :)
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bret
KartikPrabhu: yes exactly
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bret
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 43 karma
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KartikPrabhu
shhh guys don't let tantek catch us talking about rss :P
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bret
KartikPrabhu: thas silly
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bret
I dont want to alienate the RSS/superfeeder community as they have a lot of solid work in terms of readers
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bret
i mean pubsubhubbub*
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KartikPrabhu
bret: I do think that the indeweb publish+subscribe setup (including indie-readers) will be a better solution to this, than isolated feed-readers.
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bret
it already is! feeds biggest failures is that it didnt allow people to publish to subdomains
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bret
its not your own data, but at least you could post to a url
#
bret
(if readers let you publish as well as consume)
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KartikPrabhu
nods
#
bret
people fell for google readers community features
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KartikPrabhu
bret: Feedly does allow me to share what I read on social silos
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bret
idea: unauthed micropub posting to a website for more traditional comment threads
#
bret
not that I want that
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barnabywalters
bret: fwiw superfeedr is pretty awesome. I’m using it heavily in my reader
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aaronpk
bret: pretty sure there's a strong trend away from unauth'd comments in general
#
bret
julien does great work
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: do you have any sketches or design docs for this reader?
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bret
aaronpk: yeah i see that too
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: like how I outlined http://indiewebcamp.com/mention-app
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: the prototype is up at http://waterpigs.co.uk/intertubes/, http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4T3FSd/ outlines some features, http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4V6Fna/ is another little bit of design
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barnabywalters
there’s no one place collecting them all yet. I’ll add them to /reader
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aaronpk
ah cool
#
aaronpk
or you can make a new page for it too since it's its own project
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barnabywalters
the code is actually all online right now https://github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness
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bret
aaronpk: are you interested in adding gitpub to the indieweb repo?
#
bret
i want to generalize it for anyone to use
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bret
group* on github
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aaronpk
hmm maybe... although most of the things there are libraries, not full apps
#
bret
ok thats fine, Ill just link to it form the wiki then
#
barnabywalters
bret: does it have a wiki page? is it on /projects?
#
bret
no not yet
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kylewm.com
edited /2014 (+5) "/* Other Activities */ specify which location the event is for" (view diff)
#
bret
does twitter even take fake followers seriosly?
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waterpigs.co.uk
created /Shrewdness (+410) "stubbed page with not very much on" (view diff)
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aaronpk
hm does superfeedr do search?
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kylewm
aaronpk: no, my understanding is that it can track keywords from the time the track is set up into the future
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: search of what specifically?
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bear
@aaronpk - http://documentation.superfeedr.com/misc.html
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aaronpk
well presumably superfeedr is indexing all sorts of things, right?
#
aaronpk
cause I can subscribe to http://superfeedr.com/track?include=indieweb and it'll send me updates about things that match
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bear
I don't recall that it stores things using something like elasticsearch
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: yep, anything which it processes containing that keyword will show up in the track feed
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barnabywalters
pretty sure it doesn’t do any additional crawling
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kylewm
why isn't there anything in that feed though?
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aaronpk
cause it's only a realtime feed
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aaronpk
it says in the feed
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bear
it also doesn't store past items that have been published for any meaningful length of time
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Shrewdness (+407) "added a bit of background" (view diff)
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bret
is thinking of doing a cleanup of the projects page
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kylewm
got it
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kylewm
do it bret
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bear
tho, knowing Julien, if you give him a sound reason - he would probably implement it
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bret
kylewm: cant right now but the next indieweb thing I work on
#
bret
people dont come to iwc projects page to read about nginx
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kylewm
bret: I didn't mean it quite so demandingly :) i'm just a supporter of cleanup
#
bret
lol i got ya :)
#
bret
I'll start in userspace
#
bret
but thinking of making some more iwc centric categories
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aaronpk
i'm just thinking like how I can search the twitter API for things, it would be awesome if I could search other sites
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aaronpk
basically i want technorati to come back
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bret
lol
#
bear
:)
#
bret
iwc is a front to bring back old technorati
#
bret
kidding
#
kylewm
aaronpk: I've been wanting something just like that too, want loqi to tell us when people make blog posts about 'indiewebcamp' in addition to twitter updates about it
#
Loqi
dude
#
bret
without twitter
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kylewm
julien said at hwc that superfeedr was definitely a viable way to do it
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aaronpk
yeah it is. we had the notifix bot in here for a bit but it was kind of misbehaving
#
aaronpk
julien even gave me some sample node.js code for Loqi so he could subscribe to the hub but I haven't gotten around to implementing it yet
#
bret
superfeed is all PuSH right?
#
bear
push, xmpp, rss - I think he consumes/delivers all of them
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barnabywalters
yep
#
barnabywalters
also content-agnostic PuSH 0.4
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barnabywalters
which is what I’m using
#
bret
I'm a bit fuzzy on the the boundries of those things
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bear
he can poll for changes in rss
#
bear
and has rss feeds for updates
#
bear
he has an xmpp jid you can send updates to and also receive updates from
#
bear
and of cource PuSH
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bret
all i really know xmpp to be is to be the standard IM proticol
#
bear
sorta kinda
#
bret
lol
#
bear
xmpp is a message transfer protocol
#
bret
hrrmm
#
bear
you can use it to send IM (aka messages) or chat messages or event messages
#
bear
it also has muc (multi-user chatrooms) and pubsub items
#
bret
didnt overtake irc it seems?
#
bear
it's biggest feature is federated user and identity
#
bear
no, because IRC and XMPP are in different realms really
#
bear
irc allows for anyone to connect to any server and eventually get all of the messages
#
bear
xmpp says you connect to your server and then have it connect to other servers as needed
#
bear
there are some overlaps, but it's really the federated identity and messaging that is the core of xmpp
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bret
is there any crossover with serverless xmpp?
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kylewm
aaronpk: also along the same lines, this thing you said last week stuck out to me http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-03/line/1401834092
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bret
err xmpp with serverless clients*
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bear
there are some implementations of that for IoT and other specific implementations
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bear
but really the xmpp crowd don't like serverless connections - it removes the core part of what makes xmpp secure
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aaronpk
kylewm: yeah!
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bret
totally
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bear
there are some in the IoT realm who are trying for it
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bear
but really it boils down to having them be proxies in a pretend cluster
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bret
bear++ thanks for the info, it helps
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Loqi
bear has 7 karma
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bear
bret - anytime - part of my job as XSF Board member and long-time XSF member
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bret
i wish we chatted more when you were in portland :)
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@djp1974
'Re-decentralised the internet': @timbernerslee in the #Web at 25 series, @WiredUK March 2014: http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2014/03/web-at-25/tim-berners-lee #indieweb (twtr.io/nEo3JDDchR)
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bear
yea, I love to catch up with local folks when I travel
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GWG
bear: Where do you travel?
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Shrewdness (+528) "added section about the feed testing UI with screenshow" (view diff)
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aaronpk
I need an auth buddy
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aaronpk
it's hard keeping all this stuff straight in my head. and I also often need multiple implementations of things
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: talking about indieauth/micropub? I’d volunteer, but one of the reasons I made taproot/authentication was so that I wouldn’t have to hold all that stuff in my head :)
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aaronpk
I know :)
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barnabywalters
just add one line of code and *poof*, it all works
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aaronpk
that's how it should work once it's all done
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Shrewdness (+345) "Added some more screenshots, design work" (view diff)
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bear
GWG - I am often in Portland OR for events, in San Francisco for customer stuff, in Portland ME for Monktoberfest and to New York for customer stuff
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GWG
Oh
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bear
and then sprinkle in some Boston or DC around
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GWG
What is Monktoberfest?
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bear
http://monktoberfest.com/ - a single track technology + beer event put on by the Redmonk folks
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Shrewdness (+505) "moar screenshots" (view diff)
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hober
bear: that's where we met! (the first monktoberfest)
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bear
yep :)
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aaronpk
barnabywalters++ for screenshots
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 44 karma
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: hopefully they’re entertaining/informative, especially the ones of previous work leading up to building this
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aaronpk
i'm curious about collecting examples of rendering single h-entries in a list
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aaronpk
author photo and name placement, timestamp, embedded previews, etc
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aaronpk
twitter has done a good job of codifying the various components in their twitter card markup because it's so explicit
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: one thing I thought came out particularly nicely in http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/feedreader-feed-search-new-feed-prototype.png is the author name + photo + article name display in the middle ofthe second column
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bear
I would love a spot that had examples of small markup for each item that I could borrow/steal for my stuff
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KartikPrabhu
bear: for indieweb stuff?
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KartikPrabhu
like an indieweb pattern library?
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bear
yea
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bear
exactly
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bear
here is a note
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bear
here is a note with author
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bear
here is a note with....
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KartikPrabhu
nice idea... someone get on that
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bear
it seems I spend more time fighting the bad patterns I create when working on my own site
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KartikPrabhu
nods
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KartikPrabhu
bear: any reason the ronkyuu requirements are == versions and not >= versions?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: == is what pip freeze outputs ^
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KartikPrabhu
oh...
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bear
yea
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bear
that is the one almost-bad-but-I-like-it issue
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bear
being that i'm a build/release kinda person - the specificity pleases me
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KartikPrabhu
yeah i see
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KartikPrabhu
ok will keep that intact but remove mf2py
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kylewm
yeah upgrading libraries should be an explicit action that you do, cause sometimes there are breaking changes
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bear
+1
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bear
err
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bear
kylewm+1
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm++
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bear
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 15 karma
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Loqi
kylewm has 16 karma
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kylewm
ha, tricked you into double-karmaing me!
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kylewm
thanks :)
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bear
LOL
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm-
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm-- ha!
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KartikPrabhu
waa... how?
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aaronpk
:)
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: i would love to be an auth buddy, but i am not sure i will be a very good auth buddy
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pauloppenheim
i have been working a bit lower in the stack lately
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aaronpk
lower? wow
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pauloppenheim
i am angry at administering servers
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aaronpk
ah yeah
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pauloppenheim
and have written two more wsgi frameworks
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pauloppenheim
i really need to learn docker instead of wasting my life wating for VMs
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pauloppenheim
* waiting
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@ShaneHudson
@pmarca @bhorowitz oh btw Marc, while you're online... Did you see the tweets about #indieweb and @withknown? Definitely the way forward. (twtr.io/nExaQNDNqf)
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: what do you need an auth buddy to do?
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aaronpk
brainstorming, helping make UI sketches and docs, and possibly also to make your own implementation of parts of this.
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KartikPrabhu
err what's an auth buddy?
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aaronpk
lol
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aaronpk
just someone i can bounce ideas off of while working on this stuff
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KartikPrabhu
this = indieauth?
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aaronpk
yeah
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KartikPrabhu
oh ok that was my guess too :)
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Aaronparecki.com * uploaded "[[File:indieauth-web-sign-in.png]]"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /login-brainstorming (+36) "/* Web Sign-In Form */ add img" (view diff)
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: the To Do list from http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth, or other new works?
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aaronpk
new stuff
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aaronpk
check out this set of pages http://indiewebcamp.com/Category:IndieAuth
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aaronpk
but a lot is still only in my head
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pauloppenheim
i'm not very familiar with OAuth 2
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aaronpk
this should help: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/07/29/1/oauth2-simplified
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pauloppenheim
actually i'm not even great with OAuth, i usually just bug termie
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aaronpk
forget everything you know about oauth 1
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pauloppenheim
lol
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aaronpk
I suppose I need to write a page "how to build an authorization endpoint" next
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aaronpk
to go along with how to build a token endpoint
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aaronparecki.com
edited /simple-indieauth-example (+36) "/* Web Sign-In Form */ add img" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /auth-brainstorming (+36) "/* Web Sign-In Form */ add img" (view diff)
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: yeah, this is complicated, i see what you mean
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aaronpk
:)
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aaronpk
it will all be super straightforward once there's enough docs and diagrams
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aaronpk
(no really, I swear!)
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pauloppenheim
it feels very intertwined with micropub, which i have not been following closely enough
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aaronpk
it partly is, but there's a whole section that is not
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aaronpk
indieauth for authorization is, indieauth for authentication is not
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aaronpk
like when you sign in to the wiki, you're authenticating only, no micropub involved
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pauloppenheim
right
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pauloppenheim
this whole thing is very chicken-and-egg
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: is anyone else implementing their own auth / micropub?
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aaronpk
there's several micropub endpoints now
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aaronpk
nobody else has built an auth server afaik
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aaronpk
there are a few token endpoints
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bret
what if people start putting ads into h-entries?
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pauloppenheim
LOL
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aaronpk
http://meme.loqi.me/4WXxyu03.jpg
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Loqi
who, me?
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bret
pretty much
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pauloppenheim
when the indieweb gets discovered by spammers, we're gonna have problems all over
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pauloppenheim
it'll be fun ;)
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bret
we shall destroy spammers
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bret
>:D
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aaronpk
i'm looking forward to it
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pauloppenheim
oh i doubt that
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pauloppenheim
but we'll have a good ol' war
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bret
we can do social graphs with xfn!
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bret
pauloppenheim i managed to get a working endpoint the other day
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bret
which means basically so can a lot of people
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bret
posting is way to easy now
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aaronpk
oh wow I just realized an auth provider could let you sign in with a pgp key
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aaronpk
by making you sign a challenge with the private key for a public key that's on your site
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bret
aaronpk: any use for keybase there?
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aaronpk
quite possibly yeah
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: or you could encrypted email a link with an unguessable url
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aaronpk
well it already supports email auth via persona
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aaronpk
more interested in having fewer parties involved
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aaronpk
see this is why I need a "how to make an auth endpoint" tutorial
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aaronpk
so that someone good with pgp can go make an auth endpoint that lets people sign in to whatever with their pgp key
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acegiak
morning, all
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aaronpk
morning!
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aaronpk
it's always morning in #indiewebcamp
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colbyaley.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+282) "Adding myself to West guest list" (view diff)
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acegiak
aaronpk: channel runs on UGT?
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aaronpk
there's just enough people from different timezones here that someone is always saying good morning!
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: i would be interested in that
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pauloppenheim
is kbs still around?
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bret.io
edited /2014/Guest_List (+0) "Updated west count" (view diff)
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bret.io
edited /2014/Guest_List (+183) "/* West */ Updated some details on my rsvp" (view diff)
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bret.io
edited /2014/Guest_List (+38) "/* West */ Added my github too" (view diff)
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aaronpk
pauloppenheim: sweet. yeah need to get this tutorial up
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aaronpk
once I finish my silly test endpoint i'll be able to document it
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pauloppenheim
i think you have enough docs that were i close enough, i could make that
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bret
pauloppenheim have not seen kbs in a few days
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aaronpk
yeah it's mostly here http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming#Authorization_Endpoint
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aaronpk
but that is written from the point of view of the consumer so is not as easy to read if you're actually building the auth endpoint
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aaronpk
whereas I wrote http://indiewebcamp.com/token-endpoint for people building a token endpoint, not just using one
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aaronparecki.com
edited /token-endpoint (+0) "/* Access Token Request */ typo" (view diff)
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aaronpk
omg i made an auth endpoint
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: what kind?
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aaronpk
simple password auth on my own site
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bear
\o/
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aaronpk
hmm now to document on http://indiewebcamp.com/authorization-endpoint
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aaronparecki.com
edited /token-endpoint (+177) "redo headers and add section for verifying an access token" (view diff)
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aaronpk
pauloppenheim: question since you're the only pgp person I think is online right now... with this new feature you will be able to point to an auth endpoint that supports pgp auth from your home page. would you be comfortable using a service that handles the pgp verification?
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aaronpk
you'd certainly be able to create your own auth endpoint that does whatever, but it would be convenient if you didn't have to build it of course
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pauloppenheim
i'm not sure what you're asking
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pauloppenheim
would i feel comfy with challenge / response?
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pauloppenheim
or would i consider such a site trustworthy?
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aaronpk
hm
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pauloppenheim
i mean, challenge / response from a pgp pubkey is no worry at all, of course i would use that
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pauloppenheim
i don't know how much i would trust a site that used that, depends on the implementation
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aaronpk
similar to the way you can right now point to multiple auth providers like twitter or github, you will be able to point to one or more indieauth providers, which can be something you implement on yuour own domain or a service like indieauth.com
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bear
I would have to challenge/response to the site, establish a token and then that site would then challenge/response to a user and provide that token
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pauloppenheim
i think just trusting a key sitting on a web server by itself is bad form
#
pauloppenheim
aaronpk: i'm not sure if i'd reuse yours, depends how it fits in the rest of my environment
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aaronpk
say for example there is a service called thebestpgplogin.com which you've established a relationship with (you're paying for it, or whatever)
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pauloppenheim
ahh
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aaronpk
you'd add a tag to your site: <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="https://thebestpgplogin.com/auth">
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pauloppenheim
would i trust that to log me in across the web? maybe, depends on the impll
#
pauloppenheim
does it check for key revocations?
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pauloppenheim
do it hit keyservers?
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aaronpk
and then it would show up in the login prompt like this https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3837/14193432239_2ac9a4e7ff_o.png
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pauloppenheim
* does
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aaronpk
I guess my question is would you be willing to trust this third party service to do things responsibly for you?
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aaronpk
it's entirely your choice to use this service of course
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: depends on the things :)
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aaronpk
say you've done your due diligence, and you're ready to pay $20/year for this
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pauloppenheim
what needs to even pass through the auth endpoint?
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aaronpk
the auth endpoint issues and then verifies auth codes
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: part of security is not needing to trust in the first place
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bear
so my website would do a "hey, is this code valid" check?
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aaronpk
the auth endpoint is the thing you're used to seeing that says "this app would like to ____" like twitter's oauth screen, etc.
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pauloppenheim
right
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pauloppenheim
i would imagine that would run on my site, not externally
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pauloppenheim
i haven't even thought of the implications of that running externally, it sounds very weird
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aaronpk
in the case of the auth server I just made, it lets me modify the scope that the app requested https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5279/14364551756_7751334482_o.png
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pauloppenheim
principally, i do this kind of thing over an ssh tunnel right now, which usually means only using software i have written to handle that
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aaronpk
like a poor man's "checkboxes bitches" https://benward.me/blog/tumblr-968515729 (hi benward!!)
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pauloppenheim
"fire up this app pipeline that will expect to see json on stdin"
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pauloppenheim
hmm
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pauloppenheim
so
#
pauloppenheim
if i'm doing anything important on a box, probably not
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pauloppenheim
if it's all public anyway, yeah, probably
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pauloppenheim
i wouldn't want my web apps to have the decision to accept or reject something be made externally, if i care about their security
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: 2010! and Google Buzz O_O
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pauloppenheim
why does 2010 not even feel all that long ago
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bear
for me it would be ok to take this type of external auth to say that someone can leave a comment or webmention - but not to do anything else on my site
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aaronpk
interesting
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pauloppenheim
right, depends' what's being authorized
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bear
but i also do a lot of server side static stuff - so me logging into my site is a much less likely thing to happen
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bear
now I would love to see something that lets me trust a webmention as being validated
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aaronpk
one thing at a time ;)
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pauloppenheim
but isn't this for interactive use?
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aaronpk
yes let me finish getting this out onto the wiki
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bear
sorry, yea, I was jumping ahead in the story
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pauloppenheim
but i would probably run that as a module on my own site
#
pauloppenheim
but i think then you have the problem of having the 3rd party trust it
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pauloppenheim
because hoo boy, that's a lot of auth providers to just trust, for much the same reason
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bear
right - especially in the indieauth realm - every domain hitting my site I would have to establish a trust relationship with
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aaronpk
that's basically the openid situation, where every domain is potentially its own openid provider
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pauloppenheim
i have a feeling this should look different than normal auth flows
#
pauloppenheim
i.e., certs are useful because that mechanism is decentralized
#
pauloppenheim
i don't think you need an oauth flow if you have certs
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aaronpk
you always need the oauth flow in the context of micropub
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bear
well, if you have certs >= 2014
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pauloppenheim
but you can't invent your own PKI either, unless you really want to research the fuck out of it
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bear
I like PKI - call me old fashioned
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bear
you get my pub key, I get yours, we cross sign and verify… done
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aaronparecki.com
edited /token-endpoint (+843) "/* Verifying an Access Token */" (view diff)
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bear
hmm, I wonder if IndieAuth used it's pgp key to sign a webmention user would I then be able to request from indieauth a token to allow the indieauth user to submit something to my site without them having to know/use pgp
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bear
thinks he just described what the last 1/2 hr conversation was about
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pauloppenheim
:)
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pauloppenheim
aaronpk: this is where i wish i knew more about oauth2
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aaronpk
take a look at my "OAuth 2 simplified" article, it shouldn't take much to go through it and it covers all the basics
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aaronpk
unfortunately if you look at the actual specs it's more complicated because it's been so abstracted out for lots of possible use cases
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pauloppenheim
as i know it is flexible enough for "enterprise" now, i wonder if it is a superset of normal pubkey use
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aaronpk
there is a whole saml2 thing which i believe is close
#
pauloppenheim
aaronpk: been reading that, it's what's on my screen when i get breaks from my current work situation
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aaronpk
cool
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aaronparecki.com
edited /token-endpoint (+96) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
created /authorization-endpoint (+694) "stub with section headers" (view diff)
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aaronpk
back in a bit. biking home before the sun goes down.
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pauloppenheim
not a bad idea
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aaronpk
back
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aaronpk
OH snap now that iOS 8 allows API access to the fingerprint reader I can make an indieauth login option that does fingerprint auth!
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bear
laughs
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aaronpk
i'm so doing that
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aaronpk
i've gotta flash iOS 8 onto my test ipod
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pauloppenheim
hmm, that would be cool
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pauloppenheim
i think your auth is a different kind of thing than i am thinking of
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aaronpk
imagine you're signing into a site, you click the "thumbprint" option and then a push notification appears and you have to launch the app and touch your thumb to it
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pauloppenheim
right now indieauth is pretty great for what it is
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pauloppenheim
i think maybe my perspective is bent, and thinking of situations that require more security than you are targeting
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aaronpk
ideally this works for all levels of security, or is at least flexible enough
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pauloppenheim
well, but you want inflexibility for high security applications, so that it can't be fucked up
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pauloppenheim
effectively, flexibility presents much more attack area
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pauloppenheim
and it becomes impossible to evaluate "security"
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pauloppenheim
the flip side is PGP, which by all appearances is getting worse, not better, as more people make "guides"
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pauloppenheim
there's enough that's not specified, and there are enough people trying to make it easier in ways that wind up making it less secure
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pauloppenheim
wow i sound like a grumpy old man
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pauloppenheim
:(
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@CharlesPulliam
@schnarfed @islayblog 1 more Q--after enabling brid.gy should the webmentions populate a site's main page or will they appear on every page? (twtr.io/nFEGGV4_R4)
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bear
no, just someone who has had to deploy production security and had to deal with devs who follow bad guides
#
bear
that's why i'm all like "amen to that paul!" and shaking my head in agreement
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dariusdunlap
From what I’ve read about the fingerprint auth, it’s nicely secure. No PII is exchanged… just “yep”, or “nope”.
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aaronpk
that is exactly how I assumed they'd implement, and very glad
#
aaronpk
actually it unlocks keychain items, so it's a little more than yes/no but yeah, it doesn't actually provide the fingerprint image or anything
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dariusdunlap
Yeah, it was in the cards readin ghte description of the fingerprint system laste year.
#
dariusdunlap
er, last year
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dariusdunlap
Does either, actually.
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pauloppenheim
so does this not matter?: http://istouchidhackedyet.com/
#
dariusdunlap
BTW, after reading a good chunk of the Swift book, I decided I really needed to go back through it as a “playground”… so I’m doing that now.
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dariusdunlap
Never did matter.. The objective isn’t perfect security. The objective is security that’s better than the crap password that you reuse everywhere, or even a good 6-digit pin.
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aaronpk
pauloppenheim: that's incredible
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@schnarfed
@CharlesPulliam incoming webmentions show up on individual posts, as Disqus comments. https://www.brid.gy/about#incoming (twtr.io/nFF8QiXydw)
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dariusdunlap
It’s a pretty briliant physical hack.
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pauloppenheim
it's better than the samsung galaxy 5, which evidently lets you make unlimited attempts
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pauloppenheim
can't change your fingerprints!
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dariusdunlap
lol
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Loqi
[mention] http://manu.sporny.org/2014/identity-credentials/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/NASCAR_problem (pingback)
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aaronpk
wow they made all sorts of domains for their proof of concept implementation... credential.club and login-hub.com and identus.org
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bret
so much of that is routed around if you have a domain available already
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bret
its neat they incorporate telehash
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bret
except telehash isnt working yet
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bret
well dht works fine but the libs are not ready yet
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bret
aaronpk: is there an oauth meetup in town?
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aaronpk
hm maybe I should make one
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aaronpk
there were a few "state of the auth" meetups a while ago
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aaronpk
http://calagator.org/events/search?tag=oauth
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bret
that would be interesting
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aaronpk
there were only 2 meetups. I gave a talk on OAuth 2, then ozten gave a talk on Persona lol
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bret
where is manu!
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Loqi
pfefferle: snarfed left you a message on 6/6 at 9:42am: no custom post types for my possed retweets, favorites, etc. just categories to hide them from front page etc.
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pfefferle
snarfed: hmm… that is also a good idea!
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pfefferle
good morning everyone
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acegiak
pfefferle: morning
# dybskiy joined the channel