#indiewebcamp 2014-07-04

2014-07-04 UTC
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kbs right - that's about the size of it. I think the paranoid might also want feel a need to know that encoded text means in the first place [eg: a naughty person might have them sign a base64 message that says "I owe KB $100" or something]
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aaronpk do you think there's value in having that text be human-readable then?
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kbs er, "feel a need to know what that..."
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kbs I think so - usually there's some reluctance on the part of gpg users to sign unknown text
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kbs [all that said, I like the concept though, it's very clever!]
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@jgarber ★ “Now accepting webmentions!” – http://sixtwothree.org/blog/now-accepting-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/484850127677706240)
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aaronpk cool! that's super helpful
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kbs actually popped in here to see if cweiske was around to clarify an issue :-) but maybe will try later
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finchd aaronpk: kbs: yeah, the reverse is deniable encryption - something that only confirms identity during the session, but prevents guilt by association, a la OTR, which may also be valuable in indieauth
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aaronpk can I use this somehow? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_millionaire
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aaronpk no probably not... cause I do want to prove it's tied to their domain
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aaronpk well let's start with un-scrambling the text in that challenge
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gRegor` Hey, kbs! Welcome back
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kbs hey gRegor` :-)
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kbs *waves* - very nice to "irc-say-hello" again to the awesome group here :-)
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aaronpk finchd: does this make sense? https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/fbaa0a0e2aa675fa039d
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kylewm wow, good point about signing arbitrary text
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kylewm so many non-intuitive corners in asymmetrical encryption
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aaronpk i guess the danger is relatively low, because all that it proves is that the person signed the encoded text. so there's plausable deniability there
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finchd aaronpk: it does. I think that skipping the user_id and profile_id is probably best - it gives away far less of your db interals for explotation. I'm no security researcher -- I had to go look up OTR to find the word I was looking for ;)
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finchd well GPG can't be denied, unless it can be demonstrated that someone else had my private key before that challenge was signed. deniability would come in if I needed to prove that I was never at indiewebcamp.com looking at $thing-not-allowed-in-my-country say pictures of women without burkhas, or encryption (like GPG, which is restricted by international treaty)
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aaronpk i just mean that if I maliciously encoded something like "finchd owes me $100" into the indieauth challenge, you could always say you didn't actually agree because it was obfuscated and you didn't sign the plaintext
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finchd ah, so I can't open the challenge to verify? if I sign your public key I can open encrypted blobs from you right? then I re-encrypt (having done known math to the nonce) with my key (which you signed).
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aaronpk you lost me :)
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finchd sending me the encrypt and the plaintext does nothing right? because I can't prove that the two are the same if I can't open it
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aaronpk oh, it's not encrypted right now, it's just signed
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aaronpk you can actually take the middle part between the two dots and base64 decode it
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aaronpk the last part is the signature
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aaronpk this is the JWT spec, convenient for this kind of stuff
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finchd oh right. Yeah looks good to me.
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aaronpk i do like the idea of making the challenge human-readable tho
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aaronpk oh hm I actually need one more piece. the reason profile_id is in the challenge is that you may have linked to multiple pgp keys, and I need to know which one to expect
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aaronpk i mean i guess i could try to verify the signature on all keys you link to
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finchd doesn't actually know the performance of such a thing ^ , but if feasible, my network security class suggested it is desirable to move less info and do more server-side work
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aaronpk the vast majority of the time i expect people will have only 1 key to try
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aaronpk ok yeah i'll do that
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aaronpk heading out for now!
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tantek has a ton of brainstorming / sketches for archives and they all got pushed down in priority compared to other things. :/
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tantek hopefully will get a chance to unpack and get back to them at some point
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KartikPrabhu tantek: uploading them somewhere might be useful for someone... me :)
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peat Aww dang, I missed HWC.
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peat disappears again.
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GWG I always miss it
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KartikPrabhu hi peat... bye peat! :P
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GWG KartikPrabhu: He should come back. That would be a re-peat
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KartikPrabhu badoom-tsssh
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GWG Thank you folks, I'll be here all night
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GWG How are you, KartikPrabhu? Any news?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: doing pretty well... working on organising site pages behind the scence
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KartikPrabhu scenes*
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GWG Whcih ones?
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KartikPrabhu top level pages like about and so on
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GWG I have to figure out a design issue of my own
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GWG That is that sort of...won't be seen by the end user piece
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KartikPrabhu for invisible stuff just pick one solution and then change later
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KartikPrabhu no use fretting over plumbing
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I did. In the old version
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GWG The paradigm for Wordpress themes is the article is the standard format type, and all other types are not.
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GWG I'm designing it that the aside/status update, aka the Note are the standard.
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GWG So, that requires me inverting the logic
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KartikPrabhu GWG: again better to have a visible working site and then play with the backend
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I have it
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KartikPrabhu cool! tinker on then
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GWG I keep my play separate from live until it reaches a certain point
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GWG You saw my live site
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KartikPrabhu unfortunately I am of very little help with workpress
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'm fine with that right now.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I did mention my thought to pfefferle earlier, as the webmention and related plugins form the foundation of my indieweb implementation
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GWG KartikPrabhu: But I just have to keep playing with it. Once I find the organization I want, I don't intend to change again
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GWG KartikPrabhu: To use non-Wordpress specifics, I had all my code in one PHP file. Now it is in several. Since Wordpress allows child themes to override specific files in the parent theme, this will make it easy to change while still allowing updates to go downstream
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KartikPrabhu nice
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GWG I want to fork a lot
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GWG Because I have a tendency to change things.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: "Once I find the organization I want" yeah that is not so easy. be flexible about changing things
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GWG If my design changes are merely children of a common parent, then I could rotate the appearance of my site whenever I got bored.
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GWG And if, in reality, the mf2 markup is the same...it shouldn't be an issue.
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KartikPrabhu phew success! moved top-level pages to be content and not actual templates :)
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KartikPrabhu except home page... unsure how to do that bit
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GWG What is the goal?
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KartikPrabhu to have all my content in one folder (separate from templating) for ease of backup
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GWG Oh
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KartikPrabhu part of moving content to file-based storage
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KartikPrabhu ultimately I want all content in files and one command to reconstruct database from all files
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KartikPrabhu why do micropub and webmention not have icons eh!?
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KartikPrabhu where is shepazu (for icon making) ;)
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shepazu he's right here
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KartikPrabhu aaaha! :P
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KartikPrabhu shepazu: are you Doug Schepers?
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GWG What does a mention look like?
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, indeed
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KartikPrabhu awesome! heard your SVG podcast on Web Ahead... and guessed that there can only be one who writes SVG by hand :)
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, nah, I'm not the only one
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shepazu but one of a few, yeah
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KartikPrabhu I do edit them by hand to optimise but not from scratch
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: do micropub and webmention have/need icons?
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KartikPrabhu I wantz to put them on my webmention/micropub endpoints :)
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KartikPrabhu shepazu: you work on annotations yes?
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, it's definitely a strong interest of mine
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shepazu I don't want to say I've done much real work on them
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KartikPrabhu I took a shot at those: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia would love some comments :)
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KartikPrabhu TL;DR: just go here https://kartikprabhu.com/article/marginalia##the+visibility+of+the+marginalia and clicky on the little icon
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, looks great!
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KartikPrabhu :) thanks
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, how do I leave a comment?
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KartikPrabhu shepazu: comments are all through webmentions unfortunately (I am pretty anti-comment-box)
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, so, how do I do a webmention?
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KartikPrabhu you write a post on your own blog and link to mine (or any fragmentioned-text) and send me the link using the form at the bottom
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shepazu … fail.
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KartikPrabhu that's how indieweb people have been doing comments
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KartikPrabhu yeah... not as easy as writing a comment...
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shepazu you need better affordance if you want it to take off
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KartikPrabhu possibly
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KartikPrabhu I am not aiming to take off though
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KartikPrabhu but that's just me. this should work for any comment enabled blog though
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shepazu ah-ha!
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, your system doesn't work with tweets, because they use a URL shortner https://twitter.com/shepazu/status/484902457047130113
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Loqi [@shepazu] @kartik_prabhu very cool, but the side-panel needs its own “close” button, in addition to the annotation icon
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KartikPrabhu sheapzu: yes :( have been meaning to figure that stuff out like adactio has done
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KartikPrabhu now that you have commented... I'll work on that next :)
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shepazu :)
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KartikPrabhu thanks!
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KartikPrabhu having twittered comments would be nice...
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KartikPrabhu shepazu: agreed with the "close button" too... I have felt that need as I have been playing with this
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shepazu but it's a nice, clean implementation
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KartikPrabhu thanks! I appreciate you taking the extra step with me not having made commenting easy :)
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KartikPrabhu and added your tweet to my t.co.txt ;)
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, an interesting indieweb-friendly option might be to have a comment box on the site, but with some way to publish the comment in multiple places (not just your blog)… so, your commenting system would be a micropub endpoint as a utility for other blogs
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, for example, if I gave you my blog address, which had the appropriate hooks in it as well, I could post on your site but publish to both your site and mine, through oauth or something
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shepazu that seems like a friendly compromise that would help spread the idea… if you want to comment, you have to have your own publication site as well :)
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KartikPrabhu shepazu: yes. that idea has been discussed in recent times a lot. I do plan on having that :)
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shepazu (which could be a service like twitter or whatever)
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KartikPrabhu funny how many people are reaching the same idea. means it is worth exploring seriously
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KartikPrabhu well i have my indieweb project for the extended weekend
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tantek shepazu, good to see you come up with the same comment box -> micropub or Twitter flow.
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shepazu KartikPrabhu, you pinged me about an SVG icon?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the challenge with Twitter fragmentions is certainly the escaping that occurs when the fragmentions are tco'd
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KartikPrabhu shepazu: oh yeah but no one seems to be in a hurry to have an icon for micropub or webmention
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KartikPrabhu tantek: fragmention.js handles that already :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: really. interesting.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: re: icons for micropub or webmention - why? how does that help the user?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hmm not sure. I thought they'd be nice to have on my micropub/webmention endpoint. HTML5 has one ;)
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KartikPrabhu could also e used as "icons" to indicate that a website supports those things
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tantek KartikPrabhu: HTML5 is more of a whole platform though - at least that's how the icon is marketed
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's not really helpful to the user to make them worry about plumbing - if anything it causes confusion
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tantek the same as exposing user to jargon
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KartikPrabhu hmm possibly
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GWG I would like an icon for mention. I used a flag so I'd have something
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KartikPrabhu shepazu: I seemed to have summoned your SVG skills for naught... apologies
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shepazu np
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shepazu I don't necessarily agree with tantek, though… icons are good for fostering new technologies
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tantek GWG - an icon for *mentions* makes sense because that's a user level concept
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tantek and doesn't depend on the underlying plubming (e.g. you could be getting mentions via webmention or pingback or whatever - something new)
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tantek s/plubming/plumbing
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and doesn't depend on the underlying plumbing (e.g. you could be getting mentions via webmention or pingback or whatever - something new)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: i want to disagree with you... but damn it you make good points
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the problem is that every thing you put on your site like either serves a functional purpose for the user, or it is noise that distracts the user
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tantek that's how design works
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KartikPrabhu nods
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tantek now shepazu is right too however, especially the way he put it
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tantek though it's not icons per say, but branding that's going on there
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shepazu yeah, that's why those twitter and fb and stumbleupon and pinterest and reddit and … buttons never really caught on on websites… too distracting :)
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KartikPrabhu so logo?
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tantek shepazu see /nascar
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tantek yes they are noisy and distracting and usability studies have shown users glaze over them
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shepazu tantek, I know the nascar problem… and yet it's still nearly ubiquitous
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tantek and those are icons for *brands* not plumbing
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tantek very different
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shepazu they are both
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shepazu for example, you could have a webmention icon next to a post to indicate its provenance
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tantek it doesn't matter whether they have plumbing aspects or not. they have user-facing aspects and that's why they *can* work
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tantek that's just a link - no need to indicate the plumbing behind how the mention happened
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shepazu s/post/comment/
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Loqi shepazu meant to say: for example, you could have a webmention icon next to a comment to indicate its provenance
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tantek that kind of detail is irrelevant to the user
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tantek it's noise
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tantek what's important is what GWG noted - the user level act of *mentioning*
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tantek whether than happened via webmention or pingback - irrelevant
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shepazu GWG?
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GWG Me
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tantek who is GWG?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/User:David.shanske.com
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tantek :D
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tantek good Loqi
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Loqi dude
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shepazu tantek, I'm still not sure I agree with you
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KartikPrabhu listens to this debate... and agrees with both sides... weird
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shepazu but we can disagree
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tantek it's ok shepazu - keeping noise out of the UI is key for usability and design - and that's a different focus than data models etc.
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shepazu some people like to see the plumbing… and not just developers
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tantek that's what colophon pages are for
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shepazu that doesn't provide info in context
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tantek don't need it. the site says what tech it supports in general.
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shepazu it really depends on what task the reader is trying to accomplish
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shepazu tantek, again, we disagree
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shepazu but that's okay, I don't need to convince you :P
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tantek users don't care about the underlying tech. hence why they can switch between "native" apps and websites for the same without difficulty if their UI is consistent.
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tantek sure, there's the 1% of devs that care 1% of the time when they're curious and choosing view source. but designing for that by default is an error, unless you want to provide a worse experience for everyone else.
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shepazu I don't think it's so cut-and-dried what users want, for any given user for any given task
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tantek happy to have you chat with any number of UI/UX/usability experts/professionals and see if you find even one which shares any of that point of view
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tantek the "promote plumbing in your presentation" is a leftover from devs who live & breathe plumbing day to day
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tantek no professional designers do that
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KartikPrabhu is not professh! ;)
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shepazu wow, I'm now soggy from all the condensation in this channel
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shepazu oh, wait, I meant, condescension :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no you're not, but that's why folks like chloeweil and myself collaborated with you!
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KartikPrabhu ha! ;)
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KartikPrabhu errr that "ha!" was for shepazu who's sense of snark I very much enjoyed
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tantek shepazu: you're right, we're pretty dismissive around here of the protocols/formats first crowd. as opposed to user first, design first. it's a pretty big differencne in indieweb vs. previous federated, decentralized etc. efforts.
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tantek pretty key to the /principles
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tantek I should say, dismissive of the protocols/formats/datamodels/syntax… first crowd
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shepazu ok, I know where I'm not wanted :)
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tantek there are plenty of mailing lists for folks still arguing from those perspectives, much older than indieweb ;)
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KartikPrabhu :(
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tantek darn it :(
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KartikPrabhu i told you you are quite aggressive
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tantek none of that was directed at shepazu - it was an explanation of principles vs. antipatterns
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KartikPrabhu yeah...
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the background is that shepazu and I have had many in-person conversations
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GWG tantek: How did they turn out?
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KartikPrabhu <shrugs> i hope he'll be back...
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tantek GWG - usually they turn out with me doing more listening and asking quiet questions
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tantek typically from a user perspective
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tantek which is not a popular perspective in most standards orgs/groups unfortunately
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tantek nearly everyone wants to talk details of the technology first. some of that is slowly changing, even at W3C
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kartikprabhu.com edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (-20) "/* Itching */ made on list darn mediawiki" (view diff)
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tantek much more talk / focus on use-cases, but we're not there yet
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tantek I stay involved with W3C because I'm trying to shift the culture there to be more like the user-centric / selfdogfooding / scratch-your-own-itch culture here.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: he'll be back. fundamentally shepazu wants the samething - usable solutions
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tantek it's difficult when you're surrounded by a tech-first culture though (most of W3C), to break out of that way of thinking/bias
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KartikPrabhu nods
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tantek just have to keep talking about it from perspective of principles, and never anything personal
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tantek but in particular re: in-person conversations, shepazu and I are fairly used to be direct with each other in person
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GWG tantek: I was hoping to get a nice mention icon out of things.
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tantek s/to be/to being
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Loqi tantek meant to say: but in particular re: in-person conversations, shepazu and I are fairly used to being direct with each other in person
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tantek GWG - pretty sure there is a webmention logo already - though that's not a mention icon. you want to talk with a visual designer about that. that's a more challenging concept to communicate.
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tantek GWG - if you have an image already for such an icon, shepazu and other SVG experts are good at converting it to vectors
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tantek but that's different than coming up with a visual representation of a concept
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GWG Not really an artist.
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tantek s/than/from
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Loqi tantek meant to say: but that's different from coming up with a visual representation of a concept
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tantek GWG - you won't find many artists on IRC
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tantek (if any)
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GWG Wondering what real-world concept conveys a mention
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tantek easier to find them in person
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GWG Such as how a picture of a disk conveys Save to people
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tantek GWG - look to how silos solved this problem in their UX
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tantek e.g. Twitter has the notion of mentions
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tantek etc.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: a disk converying save is also highly debated iirc
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KartikPrabhu which is an example of tantek's point. Disk = plumbing, Save = action
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I know the debate
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tantek.com created /colophon (+256) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Colophon (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /colophon (+70) "add daringfireball colophon as real world example" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: perhaps consider just having a colophon page where you describe what technologies your sites supports, and what tools you use to build it: http://indiewebcamp.com/colophon
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tantek ah - you already have one! as a section of your about: https://kartikprabhu.com/about#site
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. the icon wasn't for use on any page, but my webmention endpoint... maybe logo is the correct word
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KartikPrabhu yes I haz colophon :)
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tantek.com edited /colophon (+83) "add Kartikprabhu example, split whole page colophon vs. section of about page" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu though I didn't use that word for jargon reasons :)
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tantek.com edited /colophon (+16) "link yabout" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's publishing jargon - predates the web ;)
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tantek even magazines have a colophon
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@shepazu I just failed the #indieweb purity test administered by @t. I don't need another community where dismissing other viewpoints is the norm (twitter.com/_/status/484915589119373312)
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KartikPrabhu :(
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KartikPrabhu re:colophon yeah... but most people won't know what it means... so decided to have about > me and about>site
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tantek KartikPrabhu: so that's an example of taking something personally which wasn't
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tantek it was purely about principles / focus
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KartikPrabhu <sigh> yes
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KartikPrabhu unfortunate side-effect of the Socratic method you use
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tantek it's not socratic method actually
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KartikPrabhu it relies on people being rational
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tantek it's when you hold firm on a principle, like design and user first, means you must put tech/plumbing second
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tantek it means rejecting relativism
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KartikPrabhu I know the feels bro! :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it relies on tech-centric folks being rational
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KartikPrabhu big assumption I have found
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tantek the irony is that usually design / visual arts folks get branded as not rational, rather than tech folks who are supposed to be objective etc.
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: getting the second domain ready for testing
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KartikPrabhu ooo nice
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KartikPrabhu just a sub-domain would have worked no?
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peat .. REPEAT.
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peat Sorry.
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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JonathanNeal KartikPrabhu: good call
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tantek ah, just caught a mistake / misspeak I made
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KartikPrabhu :D
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KartikPrabhu ah! the foils of IRC
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tantek KartikPrabhu: not necessarily, it's ok to make mistakes, it shows that we're human
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tantek question is what do you do after
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KartikPrabhu the debate was interesting because shepazu's feedback was very UI centric: https://twitter.com/shepazu/status/484902457047130113
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Loqi [@shepazu] @kartik_prabhu very cool, but the side-panel needs its own “close” button, in addition to the annotation icon
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tantek in this case, this was imprecise / wrong focus: "dismissive of the protocols/formats/datamodels/syntax… first crowd" <-- because of the last word
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tantek more correct: "dismissive of the protocols/formats/datamodels/syntax… first *mindset*"
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you *had* a close button before - what happened to it?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: and yes - shepazu *does* provide good user feedback as shown by that tweet.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: the "close" button was just the show button moved into the panel. so there would be a button in the panel but not next to the <p>
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KartikPrabhu so I actually need 2 buttons :P
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tantek a-ha!
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KartikPrabhu very astute observation actually. took me quite sometime to realise that was a UI problem
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tantek yes
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tantek regarding the wording, so the difference is that "mindset" is something that any one person can adopt or drop at will, whereas "crowd" sounds like it refers to specific people which both doesn't given them an opportunity/expectation of change, and it separates based on people not ideas - which is also undesirable.
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KartikPrabhu yeah it came of as attacking people rather than ideas
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tantek so anyway - just wanted to point that out since it was a pretty clear error, and may have even been hurtful. apologies for that (both to shepazu, and for the error in general)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: right, that's the problem.
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tantek it's an easy trap to fall into as well, when you start to cluster people as holding certain viewpoints. though it does them and the understanding of a debate a disservice, it is an unfortunate human short-hand.
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KartikPrabhu nods
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KartikPrabhu oh well live and learn
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tantek live and learn is not enough in an open forum
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KartikPrabhu unfortunately true
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tantek it's got to be live, learn, admit mistake, apologize, live.
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tantek preferably publicly
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KartikPrabhu at least shepazu egged me to get mentions from twitter working
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tantek yes!
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tantek I have a feeling he'll be back.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: funny thing is, you said "the foils of IRC" - I've seen all the same errors in email too. Just with more words. And worse.
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KartikPrabhu oh email is more horrible
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KartikPrabhu I was comparing IRC to IRL
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tantek when more words are used to make an error, there's a sense of more time/effort/commitment to the error, which means people are even *less* likely to admit a mistake.
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tantek at least in IRC mistakes are recognized/corrected more quickly.
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KartikPrabhu has an /itch page on website: https://kartikprabhu.com/itch
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KartikPrabhu complete with an indieweb friendly quote :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 41 karma
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tantek KartikPrabhu: is that /itch page a wiki?
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KartikPrabhu nope
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm it probably has some media wiki funkiness
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tantek I was updating stuff like that on my wiki silo before
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tantek tantek.com/w/
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tantek (redirects to silo)
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KartikPrabhu aah I see. I just made a top-level page on my site with HTML stuffs
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tantek but after a while it just felt wrong so instead I decided to give such things freely to the indiewebcamp.com/commons rather that a silo
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KartikPrabhu I will add to my user page too... just want to keep a local copy :)
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@shepazu @sgalineau indeed. But I wouldn't have thought that would be the philosophy of #indieweb. I expected more inclusiveness, and less doctrine (twitter.com/_/status/484924231449186304)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: looking at activity-streams stuff to parse twitter mentions from my webmention form. Does that set require google app engine stuff or can just be run as a package?
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: looking at activity-streams stuff to parse twitter mentions from my webmention form. Does that set require google app engine stuff or can just be run as a package?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I'm not going to engage in an argument on Twitter - it's not productive for anybody.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: fair enough... maybe a blog post on your view on this... me (as not part of the argument) maybe shouldn't try to defend it like I did with Joschi Khupal (he did take it more positively than I was expecting though)
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KartikPrabhu it does seems as if people are taking the more outspoken voices here as the view of the entire IWC
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tantek KartikPrabhu: my entire talk at Personal Democracy Forum was about the principles, and what we had to reject in order to be productive.
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tantek caseorganic's talks have been similar
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kylewm kvetch: I must say it is super annoying that all these frameworks expect Helvetica Neue, like the whole world is on OSX
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KartikPrabhu it isn't ?!
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tantek or iOS - it has Helvetica too
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: do the frameworks not give a good fallback font?
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@decarola Ciao, io vado a sentire @aral , @adactio e lo storico @rmspostcomments :) Daje co l’#indietech summit (dettagli qui http://blog.ops.is/2014/07/03/indietech-indieweb-e-indiephone/ ) (twitter.com/_/status/484961891538984960)
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@toychicken RT @shepazu: I just failed the #indieweb purity test administered by @t. I don't need another community where dismissing other viewpoints i… (twitter.com/_/status/484967353974001664)
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Loqi [@benwerd] @RichardSmedley Seems fair
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Loqi Twitter is where your friends are! The #indieweb's #POSSE helps: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE #indie2014 (http://twtr.io/o7XtgBoRPD)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/richardsmedley-seems-fair-twitter-is-where-your-friends-are-the linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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Loqi [@RichardSmedley] RT @benwerd: @RichardSmedley Seems fair
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Loqi Twitter is where your friends are! The #indieweb's #POSSE helps: http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE #indie2014 (http://twtr.io/o7Z1dbG8Y0)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/benwerd/484994424162619393/484997594754846720 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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@benwerd @rena_tom It specifically refers to a movement that believes we should own our own web presences & content: http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/485002590493495296)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/rena_tom-it-specifically-refers-to-a-movement-that-believes-we linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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tommorris ladies and gents, adactio will be taking the stage shortly
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tommorris "long term friend of the web... Jeremy Keith" :)
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@matemaz #indie2014 what can we do today? Jeremy Keith. #indieweb onstage https://twitter.com/matemaz/status/485020774626258944/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/485020774626258944)
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@CommonFutrs RT @withknown: David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393 (twitter.com/_/status/485020944940150784)
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tommorris Jaiku, magnolia, dopplr, vox, punchfork, pownce, picnik, geocities - pouring one out for the deceased
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@commonlibraries RT @withknown: David Wiley (@opencontent) wrote a lovely post on Known, the #indieweb, and education technology: http://opencontent.org/blog/archives/3393 (twitter.com/_/status/485021108346036224)
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@dajbelshaw Jeremy Keith talking about Indie Web and POSSE at #indieweb https://twitter.com/dajbelshaw/status/485021502019211264/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/485021502019211264)
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@matemaz #indie2014 http://indiewebcamp.com/principles for first steps to the independent web (twitter.com/_/status/485021646156480512)
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tommorris adactio: "this is not a mainstream movement"
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@ShaneHudson RT @dajbelshaw: Jeremy Keith talking about Indie Web and POSSE at #indieweb https://twitter.com/dajbelshaw/status/485021502019211264/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/485021882383872001)
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@commonlibraries Great learning more about Indie Web Camp: http://indiewebcamp.com/ #Indie2014 /cc @digitalmerthyr @stbotolphs_ @4thfloorchatt (twitter.com/_/status/485022219190697984)
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@momentumim indieweb:"startups talking about disrupting existing status quo,what about disrupting the staus quo business model" #indietech #indie2014 (twitter.com/_/status/485022955660136448)
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cweiske.de edited /photos (-175) "/* Software */ list mediagoblin" (view diff)
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@antogasp The pleasure of being #indie (so cool @decarola) http://blog.ops.is/2014/07/03/indietech-indieweb-e-indiephone/ (twitter.com/_/status/485034147044671488)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/dangillmor/484597122537635842/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/484994424162619393/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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@MyCozyCloud IndieWebCamp (@indiewebcamp) is running: lots of awesome talks. Follow the hashtag #indietech. By the way, Benjamin will present Cozy there! (twitter.com/_/status/485041138739707904)
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@tpitale Now accepting webmentions! Great work by @jgarber and a fun use of Sinatra! http://sixtwothree.org/blog/now-accepting-webmentions/?utm_content=bufferac2e6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (twitter.com/_/status/485042866528739328)
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@jancborchardt @miahfost @andreasn1 some use »libre« (which sounds stupid) - a great alternative is »indie« #indieweb #indietech (twitter.com/_/status/485046396027162624)
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@WendyDrexler Checking out #POSSE Publish on Your Own Site, Syndicate elsewhere. Brilliant concept. http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/485056421093208064)
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GWG Morning
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GWG Happy American Independence Day to All
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GWG And to any British people in the room...no hard feelings.
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pdurbin GWG: in Boston we had fireworks early but still got hit by thunderstorms: https://twitter.com/philipdurbin/status/484902623435161600
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@philipdurbin tried to walk home fast after watching the #Boston fireworks from the BU bridge but got soaked in a thunderstorm https://twitter.com/philipdurbin/status/484902623435161600/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/484902623435161600)
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GWG pdurbin: I have my blinds drawn
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GWG Too hot
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pdurbin yeah, it's been so hot. a little better after the storm
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp - sounds like lots of good talks and discussion at the Indie Tech conference going on in Brighton!
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GWG Good morning, tantek
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@kevinmarks “Facebook is about milieu control” @outwardfacing makes a clear argument for the #indieweb https://medium.com/the-archipelago/i-left-facebook-and-you-can-too-1e9a1886c4e4 (twitter.com/_/status/485080677440684034)
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@cubicgarden RT @kevinmarks: “Facebook is about milieu control” @outwardfacing makes a clear argument for the #indieweb https://medium.com/the-archipelago/i-left-facebook-and-you-can-too-1e9a1886c4e4 (twitter.com/_/status/485081166022987776)
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voxpelli !tell KevinMarks You have some webmentions listen on your page now, tweaked how https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ handles eg. www-subdomains
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@comzeradd RT @kevinmarks: “Facebook is about milieu control” @outwardfacing makes a clear argument for the #indieweb https://medium.com/the-archipelago/i-left-facebook-and-you-can-too-1e9a1886c4e4 (twitter.com/_/status/485086254774894593)
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Loqi KevinMarks: voxpelli left you a message 4 minutes ago: You have some webmentions listen on your page now, tweaked how https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ handles eg. www-subdomains
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@toniher RT @kevinmarks: “Facebook is about milieu control” @outwardfacing makes a clear argument for the #indieweb https://medium.com/the-archipelago/i-left-facebook-and-you-can-too-1e9a1886c4e4 (twitter.com/_/status/485090255767633920)
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aaronpk good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk here's an example of the reader feature I mentioned during IWC last weekend
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aaronpk I want to add #indie2014 to my reader for today so that I can follow tweets, and then I want to remove the search tomorrow
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20140704-164113.jpg "Uploaded via email by Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com>"
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aaronparecki.com moved /File:20140704-164113.jpg to /File:iwc-2014-indie-reader-whiteboard.jpg
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/indie-reader (+82) "add whiteboard photo" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /wiki/redesign (+261) "move notes from [[WikiRedesign]]" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /WikiRedesign (-273) "moved notes to [[wiki/redesign]]" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/Demos (+2135) "formatting, add intro demos" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/demos () "(-978) moved to main demo page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/Demos (+85) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2014/static-sites (+2299) "copied notes from etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2014/indie-contacts (+7088) "copied notes from etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronpk this is dangerous, i'm getting antsy about the way p3k handles posts right now
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aaronpk i kind of want to redo it all
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aaronpk right now i'm storing the source for my posts as yaml and generating the microformat-html from that
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aaronpk but then when I want to render external content like a comment from someone else's site, I have to handle the microformats data structure
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aaronpk so it seems weird that i'm handling the same stuff two different ways
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aaronpk especially when i'm replying to my own posts, one is rendered by my p3k classes, the other is rendered from parsing the html on my own site
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aaronpk i'm wondering if I can consolidate to just one code flow where everything is rendered from the mf2 version
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014/Design_Elements (+19) "add to 2014 category" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2014/getting-started-with-known (+445) "copy notes from etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2014/intro-to-indieauth (+259) "copy" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2014/private-conversations (+2667) "copy notes from etherpad" (view diff)
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post-by-email uploaded /File:20140704-172159.jpg "Uploaded via email by Aaron Parecki <aaron@parecki.com>"
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aaronparecki.com moved /File:20140704-172159.jpg to /File:iwc-2014-qs-whiteboard.jpg
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aaronparecki.com created /2014/quantified-self (+1173) "copy notes from etherpad" (view diff)
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aaronpk almost done importing
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/benwerd/485002590493495296/485110632866275328 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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aaronpk offline for a bit again... feel free to continue importing etherpad notes onto wiki pages!
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KevinMarks Voxpelli: Yay! I need to get my static story straight - g.kevinmarks.com is my Google hosted one, a. My Amazon one, but automating posting is work not yet done
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Loqi :D
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voxpelli KevinMarks: Please ping me with feature requests if there's anything more I can do to help you with the webmentions part of it :)
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KevinMarks Amazon is very fiddly. I think I'm going to have to destroy buckets and recreate them to make it work
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@jgarber Feels appropriate to be working on #indieweb tools on the 4th of July. (twitter.com/_/status/485115611799101440)
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GWG There's a promotional campaign
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GWG Today, on July 4th...declare your Indiewebpendence
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/485002590493495296/195863654 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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wolftune Today is the Declaration of Independence of the Internet https://indietech.org/summit/
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kylewm !tell benwerd hey I noticed www.withknown.com returns a 404
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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wolftune.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+56) "added my (Aaron Wolf) twitter handle (ugh)" (view diff)
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bear ugh - all www. should return 404 or even 418 IMO - get rid of that pattern
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rascul http://no-www.org
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rascul there is no www.rascul.io
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bear sadly their is for bear.im - but only because I had it a long time ago and I hate broken urls more than I hate www. :/
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GWG That is what redirects arefor
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bear which is what mine does :)
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voxpelli I regret not having www on voxpelli.com as I then can't CNAME eg. GitHub Pages and Heroku
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GWG I am in the market for a short domain for permacitations if anyone has any ideas.
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voxpelli ö
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voxpelli Sorry, no ideas
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GWG I find it hard to pick one that isn't taken
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indie-visitor Good evening
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GWG Good evening indie-visitor
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indie-visitor I've just 'discovered' you while reading up about the newest privacy/NSA scandals ;)
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GWG indie-visitor: You can customize your name if you want
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indie-visitor I'm reading the principles and why pages in parallel to this, so I'm not really sure what this is all about / how it works
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indie-visitor yeas please do tell how
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GWG Do /nick and put something in...
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GWG Like /nick Bob
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indie-visitor I haven't used IRC in ... gosh .... more than 10 years!
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GWG indie-visitor: It lives on
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luxpsycho there we go! thanks :)
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GWG luxpsycho: What do you want to know?
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luxpsycho it's wiser if I read the pages first, the come with questions once I have some :)
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luxpsycho unless you feel confident (an cba) to lay out the basic workings here :P
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luxpsycho but you're most welcome to briefly introduce yourself in the meantime, GWG :)
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gRegor` GWG: Check out http://domai.nr for short domain ideas.
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luxpsycho so as far as I can tell from reading up for 3 minutes
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GWG luxpsycho: I'm a fellow traveller
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luxpsycho it's all about web (blogs, social web, information pages), and you want everyone to host their own stuff (as opposed to posting on facebook, wikipedia etc.) and insert these h-tags that a crawler I guess gatehrs and copies so that censoring/removing data becomes less possible
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luxpsycho is this correct_
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gRegor` Pretty much. I've not seen censorship as a big motivator behind indieweb personally, but it definitely gives you more control if you are publishing on your own site.
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gRegor` A lot of it is about controlling how your content is displayed, where it's displayed, and how long it's displayed -- sites disappear all the time.
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gRegor` There's a wiki page set up just for that, http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths :)
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gRegor` Do you have a domain, luxpsycho?
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GWG luxpsycho: You can also syndicate to those other sites, so you still have a presence there
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gRegor` Yeah, we seek to leverage the power of the social networks, but still maintain control of the canonical version of our content.
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luxpsycho so how would I retract one of my own posts?
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luxpsycho like, if I post a false statement, or upload a foto my friends want removed?
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luxpsycho it it stuill possible for me as the owner to have this pulled?
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luxpsycho (also could you please define 'syndicate'?)
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gRegor` Are you asking if others can forcibly remove content from your site they don't want? Or how do you remove content from your own site?
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voxpelli luxpsycho: WebMentions – the technology used to push stuff to others – supports updates and deletes
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luxpsycho I understand that the former goes strictly against your principles. I did mean the latter
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luxpsycho thanks voxpelli, that clears it :)
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luxpsycho I assume these deletions take a few hours until they propagate? is it a synchronisation process like a secondary DNS'?
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GWG luxpsycho: Admittedly, nothing is 100%
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voxpelli luxpsycho: also – as I see it the indieweb movement is mostly a mentality of dogfooding concepts around independently hosted social sites – not about specific technologies, although some have gained a bigger momentum than others :)
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gRegor` luxpsycho: Ideally, when you "delete" a post, it would then return an "HTTP 410 Gone" header...
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luxpsycho seeing as you are the first google result for WebMentiopns: did you guys develop them?
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gRegor` When you send the updated webmention to the person you're replying to or mentioning, their implementation should read your source page, see that HTTP status code, and delete it.
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gRegor` http://webmention.org details some of that, the "shoulds" of the webmention protocol.
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luxpsycho ah cool I'll read it now :)
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luxpsycho thanks so far guys!
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gRegor` There is also indiewebcamp.com/webmention which includes a lot more implementation details than you may be looking for right this moment :)
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GWG luxpsycho: I want a presence on silos...sites like Facebook/Twitter...not because I like them...but as Willie Sutton, the noted bank robber, did not say..."I'm on social networks because that is where the people are."
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Loqi gives GWG a presence on silos
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gRegor` Haha
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GWG I also want a million dollars
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luxpsycho finds a million dollars
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luxpsycho walks away...
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GWG gRegor`: Seriously, why create content on your own site if people don't ever go there to see it?
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GWG That's what the syndication is for
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gRegor` Huh?
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GWG gRegor`: The explanation to luxpsycho
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GWG gRegor`: Isn't that the point? Not to be in an echo chamber?
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gRegor` Create on your own site is one of the first principles of IWC. I'm confused by the question.
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luxpsycho Is there any use in joining IWC when I don't really have a lot of own content then?
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luxpsycho I have a domain, but it's relatively empty for about 3 years now ...
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voxpelli luxpsycho: each participant have different levels of involvement
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gRegor` What are your interests, luxpsycho? Are you interested in posting blog posts/articles/status updates online? Are you using Twitter/FB/etc for any of that currently?
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GWG gRegor`: I was saying, if you don't get people there, then your site is ineffective as a site.
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luxpsycho I mainly use facebook for 1-1 chatting at the moment, and not really any of the others actively
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voxpelli luxpsycho: then it's not much effort to consolidate your identity to your own domain :)
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KartikPrabhu hellloooooo IWC
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luxpsycho hello KartikPrabhu
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luxpsycho true
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luxpsycho so basically, when I start developing and populating my self-hosted web presence
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luxpsycho all I have to do is include h-entries, and that's it?
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voxpelli There's two parts to the WebMention thing: One is the ability to send, of which h-entries is kind of needed, and another the ability to receive
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luxpsycho so i have to install the webmention protocol somehow
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: microformats are not needed to send/receive webmentions
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gRegor` luxpsycho: For now you can set up a simple h-card on your domain and use it as your identity online.
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: No, but if you want the receiver to have a nice representation of your post they are kind of needed :)
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gRegor` luxpsycho: This is usually a good first step, if you have a domain and hosting set up already: set up the ability to sign in to the indiewebcamp.com wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: yes... for handling webmentions
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voxpelli luxpsycho: good guide on getting started: http://indiewebify.me/
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luxpsycho XD these URLs nowadays! :P
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GWG luxpsycho: What runs your sie?
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luxpsycho okay thanks guys I'll read up on it and be in touch when I need something
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luxpsycho GWG: you mean webserver-wise?
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luxpsycho just apache 2
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luxpsycho also: I want to set up my own email server
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luxpsycho any tips/suggestions?
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KartikPrabhu luxpsycho: all these other technologies are seconddary... the important thing is to have your own domain and post on it (posts could be anything at all) even short notes like people do on twitter. Once you have that then think about technologies and microformats
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luxpsycho KartikPrabhu: I see. WOuld these posts be somehow replicable to facebook or other 'silos' (because that's where the people are) without becoming owned by them?
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KartikPrabhu yes! they can be :)
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gRegor` luxpsycho: I would recommend signing in to the wiki first. It can be as simple as adding a link to github, Twitter, etc. and making sure that account links back to your domain.
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voxpelli luxpsycho: it's what the IndieWeb-community calls "POSSE" – Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere – http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
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gRegor` Sorry for the barrage of links. :)
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KartikPrabhu luxpsycho: Here is an example instead of wiki page : https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/marginalia-schepers and on Twitter https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/484917678033743872 :)
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@kartik_prabhu @shepazu thanks for looking at this. I’ll fix my site over the weekend so your Twitter comment works! (twitter.com/_/status/484917678033743872)
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luxpsycho so many tabs open now!
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KartikPrabhu luxpsycho: that's why i recommend starting off with the basics and then explore the next baby step :)
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KartikPrabhu i had so mnay baby steps to get my site working
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luxpsycho Kratik: I don't see how the twitter post links back to your own site though
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gRegor` It uses magic. ;)
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luxpsycho it's rather the other way around: your site contains a link to twitter
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KartikPrabhu that is more under the curtain magic... which is best left for later :) called bridgy
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luxpsycho so then any reply would be 'owned' by twitter, wouldn't it?
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KartikPrabhu luxpsycho: did you see the reply I got back from twitter to my own site?
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luxpsycho is it not human-visible then?
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gRegor` Short version: There is a service that looks at Kartik's feed and sees it's the canonical copy and finds the twitter version from it.
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gRegor` The copy of the content you syndicate to FB, Twitter, etc. would be subject to their terms I believe, yes. But you have the canonical copy.
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gRegor` If Twitter censored your tweet, they can't censor your original on your own site at least.
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luxpsycho gRegor`: I see, but if I only see the twitter copy of it, as 99% people I guess till would, how would I / that service find the original post on his site?
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voxpelli One thing to be sure of as well – all those things are still under development as well and most participants in IWC has their own current take on it, some auotmated, some manual etc
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luxpsycho wouldn't we need the silos to implement webmentions?
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gRegor` There's a lot of experimentation as this is still pretty new. It is more common to include a link back to the original, yes.
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GWG luxpsycho: I use Wordpress, which is easy to install.
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KartikPrabhu luxpsycho: that's why I mostly include a link back unless it doesn't fit in 140 char limit... damn you Twitter
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voxpelli luxpsycho: https://www.brid.gy/ is an opensource service that solves lots of those things – a bit magic, but it works :)
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gRegor` luxpsycho: Some people think that having a link to the original tweet can be confusing, if people click it they just see the same tweet they already read. But yeah, it's all in development and people are trying different things.
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luxpsycho by magicm do you guys just mean it's a hack? ^^
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gRegor` Important note regarding plurality of approaches: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles#Plurality
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luxpsycho okay okay I'll read all of this!
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KartikPrabhu magic = awesome code by people that we don't really know how it works underneath :P
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gRegor` bridgy creates microformat versions of replies from silos and sends webmentions for them.
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voxpelli +1 on KartikPrabhu
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luxpsycho but now I'm hungry and my gf wants to skype :) so thank you all for now, and ttyl hopefully!
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gRegor` snarfed is magic.
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KartikPrabhu bye luxpsycho! have fun
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gRegor` Thanks for stopping by! Have a good day
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luxpsycho You too, guys! Good effort! ;)
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KartikPrabhu it seems most new people get the impression that you need to get all of this working for indieweb... Is there someway to emphasise incremental steps on the wiki?
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KartikPrabhu http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2014/07/03 speaking of multiple identities
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I'm working on revamping /Getting_Started
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gRegor` I think promoting setting up indieauth and a basic h-card is a good first step
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gRegor` Progress so far: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/Getting_Started
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gRegor` Haven't worked on it in a while though
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: nice! how about just starting with get a domain
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gRegor` That's on Getting Started
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KartikPrabhu ok
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gRegor` I'm also changing the subheadings to action phrases.
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KartikPrabhu yes!
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gRegor` I only didn't use "get a domain" with that person because they already had one :)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Amen to the Twitter complaint
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gRegor` I think I plan to nix the "Bonus: Get a personal short domain"
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gRegor` Or at least move it to a separate section at the bottom for "bonus"
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I've said that from my entrance
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cweiske short domains don't make sense at the beginning
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KartikPrabhu i dint know makes it sound like a short domain is necessary
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gRegor` Agreed, cweiske
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cweiske let people setup the rest first
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GWG cweiske: Only because Twitter is a pain
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cweiske before going to such subtleties
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KartikPrabhu I still don't have one and don't think it is needed except for pandering to Twitter
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gRegor` I have one, but it's not in use. And the more time goes on, the more I wonder if I need to use it.
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gRegor` Alright, heading out!
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: the outline looks nice
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kylewm.com edited /projects (-216) "/* production */ moving apache and nginx to /server" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /server (+371) "migrated apache and nginx here from /projects" (view diff)
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KevinMarks No longer even needed for pandering to twitter as they make everything t.co length now anyway
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KartikPrabhu but I have to fit my tweets in 140 chars and want to link back to original post...
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KartikPrabhu oh! i see then i just have to have t.co length even if I use my full domain
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KartikPrabhu gotcha!
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 7/3 at 10:00pm: looking at activity-streams stuff to parse twitter mentions from my webmention form. Does that set require google app engine stuff or can just be run as a package?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: cool! activitystreams-unofficial *should* be usable without app engine…but we can definitely use more practice and testing there. happy to help!
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: alright... that is my weekend project because Doug Schepers wanted to leave annotations using twitter and it failed :P
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snarfed interesting! so…he wanted to tweet and have bridgy send it as marginalia?
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KartikPrabhu no use my webmention form... but my form does not handle twitter very well due to URL obfuscation. So I plan to bootstrap it using activity-streams
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snarfed ahh ok
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KartikPrabhu so even people without bridgy can send me mentions :)
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KartikPrabhu adactio somehow already does that
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snarfed btw KartikPrabhu, just fyi, you will need to auth for twitter's api, but you don't need to do the full oauth dance. you can get an access token and secret for your own account on the API Keys tab of your twitter app page on dev.twitter.com, and just hard code those in
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: I just want to get a mf2 version of the tweet... shouldn't that be possible without the auth thing
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snarfed sadly no. all v1.1 API use requires auth, and they've turned off the v1.0 API
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snarfed but it's easy. just grab those two strings from that page and pass them into activitystreams-unofficial
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snarfed hard code them, or put them in a file, or whatever you want
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KartikPrabhu hmmm that is annoying ... i thought i could just GET the HTML page of the tweet and go from there
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snarfed my code only scrapes twitter's HTML for favorites
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KartikPrabhu alright... will play with it. Now I have to be a dev on twitter :P
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snarfed it's not so bad, promise!
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KartikPrabhu :)
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@nodenpm webmention-testpinger (0.4.0): https://www.npmjs.org/package/webmention-testpinger A tool to ping your site with a variety of webmention mark... (twitter.com/_/status/485170156600315904)
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@npm_tweets webmention-testpinger 0.4.0 https://www.npmjs.org/package/webmention-testpinger A tool to ping your site with a variety of webmention markup (twitter.com/_/status/485170397202350080)
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KartikPrabhu is now unsure whether to "support" Twitter and all its weirdness on his site
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: It's hard to solve that resolving problem in a generic way :/
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: I am more worried about pandering to twitter and then dealing with it whenever they change their way to doings things
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voxpelli Ideally one would follow all of the possible WebMention targets from the source until one finds one that matches the intended target, but that isn't really feasible
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: there is a "data-expanded-url" attribute on the a-tag in Twitter's source that you could probably look at
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voxpelli Could be a pattern that other sites using shortened URL:s could take after as well
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KartikPrabhu yeah I am now scouring the source of a tweet to see what is the simplest thing to do rather than use all of bridgy's magic
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: that'll be unfortunate. URL obfuscation is a problem
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KartikPrabhu hiding it in a data-* is even more stupid
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: well, as long as there's a bad, standardizable and feasbible way around it – then it's at least better than nothing :)
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KartikPrabhu <shrugs> just use URLs
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: I think Twitter feels an obligation to be able to block URL:s after they have been pushed through their network
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KartikPrabhu maybe. lousy reason to be breaking the Web
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voxpelli a downside of size – when you get too big you also get at least perceived obligations that it would be best if you didn't have
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KartikPrabhu yeah that is why I am sceptical of writing Twitter specific code... they may just change their mainds about thigns
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KartikPrabhu that is even if they change to data-big-url I'll have change my code
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: you could try http://embed.ly/extract – they provide 5000 free URL lookups per month and normalizes the data
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KartikPrabhu naah that would add another point of failure
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voxpelli I've found them pretty reliable – we built our entire metadata lookup system on Flattr at it
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KartikPrabhu hmmm will consider
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voxpelli and they supports quite a lot of microformats and such :)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: never mind, turns out they don't extract that specific data :P
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KartikPrabhu lol! :P
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KartikPrabhu Maybe be I'll write a little extractor object and opensource it for people to use
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voxpelli I'm thinking that this issue, how to find WebMention targets among shortened URL links, is something that should be documented on the wiki as well
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KartikPrabhu this is Twitter and implementation specific so I doubt if this can be written generically
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voxpelli one can document general approaches and see if common patterns emerges
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KartikPrabhu I will write up Twitter if I manage to get this working
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kodfabrik.se edited /webmention (+89) "/* accessing endpoints in the browser */" (view diff)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: can you explain what you are trying to do with twitter? I want to understand
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kylewm but don't :)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: someone tweets a reply to my article, and tries to use my webmention form to tell me about it. But that does not work because the URL is obfuscated. So basically I want to support Twitter responses through my webmention receiving
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kylewm oh OK, so not marginalia just a regular "mention"
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KartikPrabhu marginalia would also work if regular mentions worked. they are the same thing as far as receiving responses
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kylewm oh so you are thinking about a twitter-specific way of converting it to an h-entry
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kylewm ?
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KartikPrabhu yeah sort of.
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KartikPrabhu or directly to a mf2 parsed dict with stuff that I want in it, like author and all that
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KartikPrabhu so here is the flow I have so far, given a tweet permalink find the tweet using "class=permalink-tweet" then find the correct data-* attributes and make a mf2 style dicitionary, use that to make responses
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kylewm I think I did something like that when I backfilled reply context for old tweets
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KartikPrabhu manually or code?
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kylewm (but I used the api, their HTML is a mess)
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KartikPrabhu aah...
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KartikPrabhu if I am using their API I might as well use snarfed's activity streams and avoid all the headache of writing code
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kylewm I vote for that
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kylewm ;)
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KartikPrabhu interesting... so I'll have to put some wrapper code around activity-streams and it should work
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kylewm probably also possible to query twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com directly?
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KartikPrabhu oh! what is this...
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kylewm activitystreams-unofficial as a service
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KartikPrabhu I see... will consider that too
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kylewm I am doing UI stuff today. I hate it!! :)
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KartikPrabhu likes UI stuff
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KartikPrabhu it is all visible changes instead of backend invisible stuff
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kylewm I liked refactoring logic out of my templates, does that count?
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KartikPrabhu nope. still invisible to readers ;)
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KartikPrabhu i did that yesterday night, and my site looks the same :P
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kylewm feels so good though
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KartikPrabhu true! now I can add pages to site without adding URL configurations :P
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kylewm oh that sounds nice
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KartikPrabhu just added: https://kartikprabhu.com/itch
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KartikPrabhu :P
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kylewm I saw that! looks great
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@kartik_prabhu @shepazu I’ll support twitter on my site and you can fix your blog, deal? ;) #indieweb (https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/blog-schepers) (twitter.com/_/status/485187603461709824)
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KartikPrabhu tantek ^
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tantek nice!
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tantek just faved the whole thread :)
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KartikPrabhu ha! :)
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KartikPrabhu i thought I should offer some work in return for his :P
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: kylewm: Bridgy seems to be skipping a tweet in chained conversations: see: https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/485191549865562112 which got sent as a reply to https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/blog-schepers here
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@kartik_prabhu @shepazu depends on what you want to do next. You already post on your blog I see. Any particular task you have in mind? (twitter.com/_/status/485191549865562112)
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KartikPrabhu or is that some Twitter funkiness
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JonathanNeal Harder than writing any program is describing or documenting it.
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KartikPrabhu nods
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rascul i'm not good at writing documentation
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rascul i don't normally comment my code either, because i look at it and i don't understand what should be commented
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KartikPrabhu bad rascul! :P
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rascul code is self documenting
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KartikPrabhu it would be nice if that were true of most code
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rascul no amount of comments can tell me what a loop does better than looking at the loop
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KartikPrabhu but that is an ideal to aim for
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rascul i'm not aiming for it though
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rascul i just don't understand what to put in comments
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: catching up. sounds like you're back to scraping twitter's html?
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rascul because i look at it and i can't grasp how one who is familiar with the language can't understand it
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: kylewm almost convinced me not to do that. it is horrible HTML :P
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KartikPrabhu now I am mulling over it :)
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snarfed yup
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rascul also i don't look at comments in other people's code, i look at the code itself
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: also any thoughts on : http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-04/line/1404514035
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aaronpk code is so not self-documenting lol
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rascul sure it is
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: looking
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rascul a line of code tells exactly what it does
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aaronpk Looking at benwerd and emma's php code for the reader made me realize how easy it is to have completely different styles of code
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rascul looks
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: feel free to revisit https://www.brid.gy/about#missing while i'm looking :P
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aaronpk not that it's bad at all, just super different from how I do things
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aaronpk I'm getting stuck because for some reason it's unable to find my author photo here https://github.com/benwerd/indiereader/blob/master/lib/microformat.php#L101
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aaronpk here's the mfpath function: https://github.com/benwerd/indiereader/blob/master/lib/microformat.php#L40
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aaronpk this is basically the most ruby-like php i've ever seen :-)
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rascul i do see the advantage in comments though, because they can make it easier to understand how a piece of code fits into the bigger picture without going through the entire project
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rascul but still, i don't understand how to write those comments
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rascul it's more of a failing on my part than anything else
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: that case is not for the missing part. But bridgy is detecting that my tweet is in reply to my own previous tweet even though they have another person's tweet in the middle
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: right. so, bridgy intentionally sends all tweets in a chain as responses to the original tweet, not just the first direct replies in the chain
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snarfed looking at https://www.brid.gy/twitter/kartik_prabhu#responses , shepazu's tweet in the middle got sent to https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/marginalia-schepers, from the initial tweet, but didn't also get sent to your reply post
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: but shepazu's tweet did not come as a reply for some reason
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snarfed yeah, it's a missing feature. right now it doesn't collect original post links from multiple tweets
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snarfed reasonable feature request though, thanks! feel free to file an issue
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: why did the conversation stop here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/marginalia-schepers and not go on as in https://twitter.com/kartik_prabhu/status/485191549865562112 then?
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@kartik_prabhu @shepazu depends on what you want to do next. You already post on your blog I see. Any particular task you have in mind? (twitter.com/_/status/485191549865562112)
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: from there on it split into a separate conversation: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/blog-schepers2 somehow
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: if there are multiple possible posts earlier in the chain to send a reply to, it chooses one, and it looks like which one is undefined, ie arbitrary
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KartikPrabhu hmmm oh
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snarfed basically, this isn't a use case we've worked much on
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snarfed ie back and forths where multiple tweets in the chain are possed
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KartikPrabhu I see. so chained conversations would sort of not work optimally
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snarfed we can definitely make them work, we (bridgy) just haven't thought about them much yet
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snarfed i'm also curious how you'd ideally like them to show up on your site
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snarfed would each of your reply posts have the rest of the chain below it, starting with itself?
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snarfed or would you only have one post for the full chain, and each reply would be a fragment?
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snarfed just curious
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KartikPrabhu I am not chaining conversations at all on my side... so right now, there would be my post and Doug's direct reply below it
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KartikPrabhu my next reply to Doug's post shouldn't be a reply to my original
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KartikPrabhu but maybe twitter does not handle reply to replies and reply to original separately
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snarfed right, sorry, i was unclear. i see how your site does it now
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snarfed i was curious how you'd *ideally* like it to work.
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KartikPrabhu ideally on my end I'd be chaining replies with my own posts so they'd all show up as one conversation on clicking "show thread" or something
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snarfed and one permalink for the thread? or one per reply, and they'd all show the thread reasonably, like twitter itself does?
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KartikPrabhu one permalink for each of my posts. Each post would have all direct replies under it. But then on any post click "show full conversation" pulls in all the previous and later notes that are reply chained
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KartikPrabhu if it workde by magic, that's how that'd go :P
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snarfed got it, ok. and so for a reply in the middle of the chain, where would you want the webmention for it sent?
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KartikPrabhu to my post that it is a direct reply to... not the first one in the conversation
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snarfed ok. would you mind if it was sent to both?
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KartikPrabhu there is a problem of munging twitter's model to this one
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: unknown, since I haven't thought about how to handle that yet :P
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snarfed ok. thanks for the info
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KartikPrabhu sure thing
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KartikPrabhu goes to make dinner
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