#indiewebcamp 2014-08-06

2014-08-06 UTC
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tantek.com
edited /shared_hosting (+358) "FAQ, How to know if on shared hosting"
(view diff)
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk re: http://www.shdon.com/blog/2014/05/09/php-why-might-session_start-fail-claiming-no-such-file-or-directory I am thinking of pursuing solution #1 in Falcon, so that it "auto-fixes" a situation like that.
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tantek
is there any downside to mkdir (ini_get ('session.save_path', 0777, true)) ?
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tantek
should I check !is_dir() first to avoid an unnecessary write attempt?
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gRegor`
If you're on shared hosting, you don't want your session save path world writable or world readable.
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gRegor`
Unless you just mean for your local tantek.dev
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tantek
gRegor`: good point! no this is for falcon.php thus it should handle shared hosting or not
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tantek
how can you tell in PHP if you're on shared hosting or not?
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tantek
so what perms should I use then on shared hosting?
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tantek
bbiab - will be offline reading logs.
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gRegor`
Not sure of an easy method to detect shared hosting.
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gRegor`
Perms should be as locked down as possible. Typically the scripts execute as user "nobody" but your files are owned by "tantek" so it would require broader permissions to read/write. suPHP or FastCGI can be used to execute scripts as your username, though, so then you could lock them down to not be world read/writeable.
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gRegor`
Running the scripts as your user can be a security trade-off, too. If there's a vulnerability in your script, an attacker could then do things on the server as "tantek" instead of "nobody"
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gRegor`
Heading out myself.
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@kevinmarks
@johncappiello @Brent_Thoma the challenge is linking from the edges + showing the subset you want. Building it up at http://indiewebcamp.com
(twitter.com/_/status/496831525984292864)
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@temporaryhuman
@evacide if the gig could be focused on developing simple to roll-ur-own #indieweb + mad encryption, might be interesting.
(twitter.com/_/status/496834288688824320)
simsketch, chrissaad, lukebrooker, caseorganic, KevinMarks, KevinMarks2, snarfed, j12t and paulcp joined the channel
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@katelosse
@kevinmarks are there any #indieweb meetups in SF this month?
(twitter.com/_/status/496859951588188162)
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek
!tell gRegor` thanks for the link - http://websec.io/2012/08/24/Shared-Hosting-PHP-Session-Security.html - though all those options are much more complicated than just usring permissions other than 777
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
I'm going to go with 0700 instead and see if that works.
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tantek
it seems to have worked!
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tantek
now to try a new post on the new server
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tantek
and that works too. cool.
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tantek
and manually Bridgy POSSE'd that post direct to FB too (since that provides higher fidelity than the Twitter->FB copy)
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tantek
the solution I used for http://indiewebcamp.com/PHP#session_start_failed on my wenhost: I did not start a support ticket. instead I added this code to Falcon:
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tantek
if (!is_dir(ini_get('session.save_path'))) {
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tantek
mkdir(ini_get('session.save_path'), 0700, true);
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tantek.com
edited /PHP (+335) "/* session start failed */ add code to auto-create session path"
(view diff)
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@jeena
@graue @tjreo @ArturoVM interesting from a historical point of view. The public aspects is still relevant for me in #indieweb I think.
(twitter.com/_/status/496928420899860480)
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@glennjones
@yandle apart from the time to build it, maybe a good #indiewebcamp project, mix @blaine auth idea with IndieAuth. Would need to work on UX
(twitter.com/_/status/496931736354185216)
Rev_Illo, JohKo, pfefferle_, kylewm_, rektide_, reidab, barnabywalters, adactio, jsilvestre and scor joined the channel
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barnabywalters
Just released php-mf2 v0.2.9 http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4XUAQb/ — from now on, I’m going to sign the tags for it (and eventually for all my other projects), so I added a guide to the installation instructions for how to get my key and verify the tag
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barnabywalters
I’d greatly appreciate feedback on how clear this is — if there are any security-minded or security-curious php-mf2 users who don’t have GPG set up it’d be great to walk you through the process to find any obvious stumbling blocks/points for improvements
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ShaneHudson
Every few weeks I wish I could move away from Wordpress, it is so heavy on ram etc. But there is nothing that wouldn't require a tonne of work. Flat file sounds nice but then adding indieweb stuff gets even harder... can't win lol
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jenmontes.com
edited /Tumblr (+412) "Added criticisms section to include DMCA takedowns"
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: from a securoty point of view, would it be ok to run compouser update on a local maching and verify the tag locally, then check the composer.lock file into version control, deploy to production and run composer install
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jonnybarnes
or would I needd to reverify the package in production as well?
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: I’m not actually sure. IIRC composer stores the hash of the checkout in composer.lock, so it should be fine to verify locally and install clean on the server
cuibonobo, brianloveswords, eschnou, chrissaad, Acidnerd, ShaneHudson, glennjones, julien51, snarfed, simsketch and fourtonfish joined the channel
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jonnybarnes
whaa, how did Loqi know to expand the jmb.so link into the jonnybarnes.uk link?
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Loqi
is done
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barnabywalters
Loqi follows all the redirects
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barnabywalters
enthusiastically
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jonnybarnes
just running composer update now, then gonna try and verify php-mf2 barnabywalters
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: great! let me know how it goes
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jonnybarnes
composer has definitely installed v0.2.9
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: hrm that is very strange
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: run git status and see what you get
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barnabywalters
in taproot, I see HEAD detached at v0.2.9
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barnabywalters
nothing to commit, working directory clean
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jonnybarnes
ahhh, well, the root is itself a git repo
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jonnybarnes
so when I run git status its complaining about ../../../compose.lock being modified
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barnabywalters
oh so despite the cd git still thinks it’s in the parent repo
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barnabywalters
that doesn’t happen for me
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barnabywalters
I take it you’re using zsh?
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jonnybarnes
yup, just tried bash and the same happens
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barnabywalters
yeah I’m using zsh too so it’s probably not that
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jonnybarnes
ahhh, think I might now whats going on
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jonnybarnes
I'm using laravel, and the parent composer.json file (where I've added require: mf2/mf2) has the follwing option
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jonnybarnes
"config": { "preferred-install": "dist" }
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barnabywalters
ah, so there might not be a .git file in vendor/mf2/mf2
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barnabywalters
I didn’t know composer ignored .git files when that setting was turned on — I thought it just looked for a packaged version somehow
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jonnybarnes
just a .gitignore
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barnabywalters
well I don’t really have an easy way to sign dist packages
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jonnybarnes
or maybe the .zip file
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jonnybarnes
and simple not cloned the git repo itself
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barnabywalters
yep. slightly annoying but good to know
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jonnybarnes
so maybe put a caveat in the README.md about needing --prefer-source in the composer command
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Loqi
gRegor`: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 37 minutes ago: thanks for the link - http://websec.io/2012/08/24/Shared-Hosting-PHP-Session-Security.html - though all those options are much more complicated than just usring permissions other than 777
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: you there?
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jonnybarnes
so, I've pulled out my webmention code into its own library which also uses mf2
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jonnybarnes
set that to prefer-source
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jonnybarnes
and now I get this error:
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jonnybarnes
now I think the cause of this is I actually have GnuPG v2 installed
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jonnybarnes
so the command is actually gpg2
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barnabywalters
ah, interesting, okay
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jonnybarnes
so for normal use I added an alias to my .zshrc file
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jonnybarnes
but git obviously hasn't picked this up
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gRegor`
!tell tantek Glad you got it to work. I tend to think it's something the webhost should resolve in a shared server situation, instead of the software creating a new directory. In your instance the session save path was under your directory, but a lot of times it isn't, so code to auto-create isn't going to work.
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jonnybarnes
maybe if I made a symlink from .../bin/gpg to .../bin/gpg2?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: that should work
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: it works, well almost, but that warnings just a trust issue: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/9927610b58d37d17ece5
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: yay! that’s the best which is going to happen without the web of trust connecting us
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Loqi
woot
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barnabywalters
are you coming to IWC UK?
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barnabywalters
if so we can keysign
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barnabywalters
so that’s a good test showing that there are some caveats to the verification process. I’m updating the README now.
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jonnybarnes
its down in Brighton isnt it? thats a little for away
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: if you’re in the UK, then it’s going to be less traveling than from Iceland ;)
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willnorris.com
created /Template:willnorris (+108) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|https://willnorris.com/logo.jpg}}[[User:Willnorris.com|Will Norris" target="_blank">User:Willnorris.com|Will" target="_blank">https://willnorris.com/logo.jpg}}[[User:Willnorris.com|Will Norris]]</span>""
(view diff)
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willnorris.com
edited /Jekyll (-17) "try using username templates"
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: I've opened a homebrew issue for the gpg/gpg2 executable issue: https://github.com/Homebrew/homebrew/issues/31392
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: oh thanks!
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kylewm_
jonnybarnes: just noticed the link on your homepage to /principals is broken
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kylewm_
should be /principles ;)
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PierreO
(this bot doesn't respect our privacy…)
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jonnybarnes
kylewm_: fixed
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jonnybarnes
* kylewm even
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jonnybarnes
thanks :)
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jonnybarnes
people that backport twitter replies to their site (via bridgy for example), would we not technically need to follow this? https://dev.twitter.com/terms/display-requirements
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Loqi
tantek: gRegor` left you a message 42 minutes ago: Glad you got it to work. I tend to think it's something the webhost should resolve in a shared server situation, instead of the software creating a new directory. In your instance the session save path was under your directory, but a lot of times it isn't, so code to auto-create isn't going to work.
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jonnybarnes
kylewm: good post
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kylewm
jonnybarnes: yeah, it changed my mind when i asked about using oembeds for reply context :)
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tantek
gregor and I keep missing each other
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tantek
lol oembeds ;)
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^ might want to @-reply that with http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup
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aaronpk
ShaneHudson: re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-08-06/line/1407323451 would you be interested in hacking on p3k with me?
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ShaneHudson
aaronpk: I don't really have much time at the moment (never have time!) although that does sound good. Thinking about migrating to Craft, that has a very nice interface and easily adds custom post types etc.
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aaronpk
what is Craft?
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ShaneHudson
It's not flat file but it is a nice cms
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aaronpk
oh it's not open source?
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ShaneHudson
Not in the freedom sense, but the code is avaiable and the free version works nicely
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aaronpk
huh, they don't even link to the source code, just a "download" package
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ShaneHudson
What's the code like for p3k? Fairly robust or still quite hacked together?
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bret
yay i convinced the maintainers to revert a url breaking change in jekyll!
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Loqi
giggles
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aaronpk
quite hacked together, but a lot of it is here https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k-core
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bret
i discoved it after all my urls broke
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aaronpk
but that's just the core classes, not how you actually use them
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bret
im gonna wwrite this up on the gh-paggs wiki
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bret
in (iwc)
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aaronpk
bret: cool!
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bret
aaronpk where can I make PRs for the irc logs css?
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tantek
bret - nicely done!!!
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tantek
stableURLs++
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Loqi
stableURLs has 1 karma
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ShaneHudson
aaronpk: hmm that is tempting, but don't thik I can commit to that at the moment, sorry! If I do migrate to craft though I will make sure to open source any indieweb plugins :) So far on Wordpress I've been using other people's
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aaronpk
no worries
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aaronpk
there's also Known of course
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bret
jekyll decided that subfolders in its _posts directory were actually suppsoed to assign category (like a tag but ends up in the url) where it used to just flatten any directory structure on compile time
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ShaneHudson
Yeah I think both are (as far as I know) still in a state that requires a lot of TLC, which I can't give right now :(
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bret
aaronpk, i got gitpub working for arbitrary micropub clients. still needs a lot of work, but it currently works with all clients.
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aaronpk
Known is in a much better state than p3k, probably safe to jump in on it
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aaronpk
bret: !!! awesome
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bret
I need a better way to describe it I think.
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@oldaily
Drawing a line from @elgg to @withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb #oldaily http://www.downes.ca/post/62606
(twitter.com/_/status/497056440129826816)
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@withknown
RT @oldaily: Drawing a line from @elgg to @withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb #oldaily http://www.downes.ca/post/62606
(twitter.com/_/status/497057075357564930)
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ShaneHudson
aaronpk: You've got me thinking now lol. Would it be alright to have a copy of p3k to play around with?
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@karthi4india
Drawing a line from elgg to withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb http://www.downes.ca/post/62606/rd
(twitter.com/_/status/497060554528542720)
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@RikMende
Drawing a line from @elgg to @withknown: an adventure in #edtech and #indieweb http://werd.io/2014/drawing-a-line-from-elgg-to-withknown-an-adventure-in by @benwerd very interesting #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/497061742241792000)
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gRegor`
waves to tantek
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gRegor`
Here at the same time. But I'm kind of busy. :)
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tantek
gRegor`: cool. I'm having trouble following your reasoning in your most recent reply.
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gRegor`
Often the session save path is outside of the user's space, e.g. requires root access. If session_start failed with /usr/tmp/ your code wouldn't be able to create it. (And it likely doesn't need to be created... some other problem.)
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gRegor`
Basically, on a shared host, session_start should work out of the box and, personally, I would be inclined to just have the webhost fix whatever the problem is, not have software attempt to create the directory.
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tantek
gRegor`: "Often the session save path is outside of the user's space, e.g. requires root access." <-- need examples
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gRegor`
If the software attempts to create it, it should also handle the situation where mkdir fails
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gRegor`
tantek: A lot of times session save path is just /tmp
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tantek
gRegor`: none of what you're saying demonstrates any harm in the software attempting to create the directory.
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tantek
there is no downsider
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tantek
s/downsider/downside
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: there is no downside
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tantek
and there is possible (empirically!) upside
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gRegor`
Say mkdir fails and session_start continues to fail.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (+62) "force TOC into its own section since it's so wide"
(view diff)
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tantek
therefore it is logical for software to attempt to create the dir
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tantek
gRegor`: irrelevant - it would have failed anyway
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tantek
again. no downside. possible upside. ergo.
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tantek
also, I have yet to see a situation where a) session dir does not exist, AND b) software is unable to create it - so if you know when that has happened, please provide specifics (e.g. hosting provider)
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gRegor`
Wasn't necessarily saying it's a downside. A preference. If the *default* session.save_path on a shared host is not working, I would prefer the webhost set it up properly.
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tantek
otherwise I will wave it off as unlikely hypothetical
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@RikMende
what is #webmentions ? #indieweb https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ soon entering the indieweb bandwagon with my own domain #Yay !
(twitter.com/_/status/497064735754682368)
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gRegor`
I'm still surprised / curious about the cause of your session directory not existing. :) I've never seen that before, much less a scenario where b) needs to happen
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cuibonobo
tantek: that post about tent is very old (even though the gist says it was posted 2 days ago). right now tent is a ghost town.
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tantek
cuibonobo: "ghost town"?!? really? what happened? and when did that happen?
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tantek
gRegor`: well, b) *did* happen, so now my software is patched in case it were to happen to someone else (or on another server) in the futue.
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tantek
s/futue/future
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: gRegor`: well, b) *did* happen, so now my software is patched in case it were to happen to someone else (or on another server) in the future.
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tantek
is still having difficulty with 8 finger typing (3 and 5)
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gRegor`
and in case their PHP setup resembles yours :)
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gRegor`
s/in case/presuming/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: and presuming their PHP setup resembles yours :)
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gRegor`
has/had a tent.io profile and liked it for a bit, but hasn't logged in in ages
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bret
tent has a pretty web page
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cuibonobo
tantek: the core developers still post things to tent fairly regularly, but the vast majority of potential app developers are gone
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cuibonobo
it basically boiled down to breaking changes to the API
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gRegor`
I was pretty excited about tent before I knew about IWC
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cuibonobo
at some point between 0.2 and 0.3, there were so many breaking changes that most people got fed up
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bret
i think Jeena had issues with tent when trying to change domains or somethng
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gRegor`
From my minimal research at the time, it seemed it would be difficult to set up on my own server.
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gRegor`
Yep, bret. I remember talking to him about that.
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Jeena
Not quite, I wanted to keep using my main domain.
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cuibonobo
gRegor`: apparently that's by design. at first they were thinking of getting people to self-host, but they've pivoted away from that idea
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bret
difficulttosetup--
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Loqi
difficulttosetup has -1 karma
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bret
cuibonobo was tent vc funded?
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cuibonobo
bret: i don't think so
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bret
was tent funded?
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bret
why the need to pivot?
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Jeena
but the protocol didn't let me, the upgrade procedure from 0.3 to 0.4 Server fucked up the relations to everybody and there was no way to refollow because they already followed my domain. The only way was to remove my entry from their databases but nobody had access to the one providers database
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cuibonobo
bret: the justification was that self-hosting would lead to technically-minded people eventually hosting tent servers for their friends, but that posed a security risk
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cuibonobo
bret: tent currently functions under a "trust the server" model, where stuff is stored on the server unencrypted. so the pivot was so that only "serious hosters" would take the time and effort
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bret
funky
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gRegor`
lame
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tantek
bret re: "tent has a pretty web page" - just goes to show how a pretty marketingy designery web page for a project means nothing in the long term (1 yr+)
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aaronpk
lol that 1yr is long term
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tantek
aaronpk - seriously
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tantek
scrolls up to read gRegor` re: PHP
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tantek
"If the software attempts to create it, it should also handle the situation where mkdir fails" <-- nice to have, but why?
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gRegor`
Because "session_start failed jargon jargon jargon..." isn't user friendly
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tantek
I'm questioning specifically the "if … should also"
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tantek
I agree with "should also" independently
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tantek
I just don't see why it is implied by the if
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tantek
cuibonobo, gRegor` wow that's a lot about tent.io that I'm not sure is well-known. could you copy/paste some of what you said in IRC into http://indiewebcamp.com/Tent.io#Criticism ?
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gRegor`
If (part of) your goal is to avoid issues with other people installing Falcon and their PHP setup being messed up, I think you should go the extra mile and check if mkdir failed and display a user friendly message. Again, a preference. Obviously if your current code fails, they'll get the same message as if your code wasn't there.
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gRegor`
This is why my preference would be to have the shared host fix their PHP setup, so your software isn't responsible for attempting to fix various installs.
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kylewm
!tell snarfed for finding twitter replies, do you remember why bridgy uses search/tweets instead of statuses/mentions_timeline?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
Maybe I'm just lazy. :)
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tantek
gRegor`: I think it is useful to reduce the number of situations where the user sees an error and/or has to file a support ticket. the logic is that simple.
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tantek
which means each such improvement stands on its own.
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tantek
and does not imply any need for any others.
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jenmontes.com
edited /Tent.io (-1) "/* Articles */ Fixed a dead link"
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jenmontes.com
edited /Tent.io (+11) "Fixed location of sample instance"
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@npm_tweets
webmention-testpinger 0.4.2 https://www.npmjs.org/package/webmention-testpinger A tool to ping your site with a variety of webmention markup
(twitter.com/_/status/497088121297985537)
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jenmontes.com
edited /Tent.io (+2285) "Added stuff to the summary and to the criticisms sections"
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jenmontes.com
edited /Tent.io (-2) "Fixing a brain fart"
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tantek
just got bitten by Edit and Delete being adjacent in a menu
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tantek
accidental Delete, no undo
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tantek
the little (v) drop down in the top right corner of a FB comment you wrote
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tantek
nope I was mistaken
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tantek
I only *thought* I hit delete because my comment disappeared because of JS lag
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tantek
and it took a while for the editable version to show up
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tantek
when you actually choose delete it does give you a confirm dialog
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tantek
"Delete Comment / Are you sure you want to delete this comment?" [Delete] [Cancel]
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tantek
of course better would just allow Undo for deletes like that, like gmail does
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tantek
darnit I really need to just build the post create/edit/delete/undo UI flow I came up with and sketched in 2011
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aaronpk
we should document undo as part of micropub
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tantek
aaronpk - perhaps after someone (anyone?) implements undo as part of their posting UI?
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aaronpk
if micropub spec'd out all the operations needed for that UI you sketched, then micropub clients would support that
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tantek
I'd rather see a functional UI prototype inform the design of the protocol
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tantek
than attempt to add undo to the protocol imagining how it would work in the UI
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tantek
even if such imagining is/was/were my own sketches
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aaronpk
i'm trying to not add any further post management UI to p3k right now, instead building those UIs as separate services that communicate via micropub
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tantek
I too am not adding any (further) post (***) UI to Falcon, instead building support for more publishing features to replace my Twitter use-cases.
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cuibonobo
tantek: would that UI sketch happen to live somewhere? I can't find it on the wiki
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tantek
cuibonobo: unfortunately only in old tattered paper form, before I got super-thorough about putting everything on the wiki :/
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tantek
has a lot to backfill :/
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tantek
I'm trying to add to the wiki whenever a) I get something new to implement, or b) as I implement/fix something (anything)
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tantek
hence my attempts to document the /PHP session config struggles
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Loqi
snarfed: kylewm left you a message 2 hours, 10 minutes ago: for finding twitter replies, do you remember why bridgy uses search/tweets instead of statuses/mentions_timeline?
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snarfed
kylewm: ah yes. tl;dr: finding full tweet reply chains iz hard
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snarfed
kylewm: mentions_timeline is great, but you have to auth as the user being mentioned, so it's only half of the story
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snarfed
kylewm: you can get replies to you, but you can't replies to those replies from other people
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tantek
snarfed, if I POSSE a post to a public email list - what do you think of Bridgy subscribing and sending webmentions for replies on that list?
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snarfed
tantek: interesting!
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aaronpk
oh man
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aaronpk
i think i know where you're going with this
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snarfed
tantek: similar to npdoty's
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tantek
yes npdoty is an inspiration
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snarfed
there are lots of details that would need to be worked out, but it's definitely doable
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snarfed
want to dive into some python? :P
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kylewm
snarfed: ahhh thanks! that was a great explanation
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snarfed
hey kylewm btw, we can close https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/223 now right?
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tantek
snarfed, for starters, just wondering how to best capture this as an issue (or even if it is worth consideration) to iterate on the idea
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kylewm
snarfed: yep!
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tantek
also as each email reply on a public list typically has a permalink URL, that has to be useful in some regard for post->POSSE->email->reply->backfeed->post
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tantek
one could also post a "reply" to a public email list archive message pemalink, and include a reply-context from that permalink
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snarfed
tantek: sure! github issue is fine
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snarfed
i've used "umbrella" issues like that for big new features before. e.g. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/10 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/121
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snarfed
…but this would be complicated enough that you might want to do it on the wiki, and just make a stub gh issue pointing there
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tantek
also wondering how it would inform suggested changes to the markup in public email list archives
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snarfed
there are a ton of implementation details to work out
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snarfed
right. bridgy would need to render its own mf2 for at least a while
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tantek
(i.e. it's likely I could get w3c to improve their email archive markup)
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snarfed
that'd be nice
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tantek
I could try to frontload such efforts to make it easier for bridgy
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tantek
and frankly, easier for our existing code to retrieve and display reply-contexts
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snarfed
tantek: sure!
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tantek
when we publish a "reply" on our own site in-reply-to an email on a public list.
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tantek
would be interesting if we could replace this particular email use case (public lists) with web publishing instead
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snarfed
totally!
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tantek
and treat legacy email list as just another silo/transport mechanism
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aaronpk
i'm up for that
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snarfed
it's not an itch for me personally right now, so we'd have to find someone else to implement it in bridgy (tantek? npdoty?), but there's a big chunk of up front design work before that anyway…and the design work may be valuable enough on its own
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tantek
right - so that's the piece (that up front design work) that I think I can help with
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tantek
and we'll see if anyone else is itching on this at that point
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snarfed
definitely try to rope npdoty in too
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bret.io
created /static-site (+185) "Created page with "{{ stub }} A static site is a website that is served by a web server directly from the file system. * [http://nilclass.com/courses/what-is-a-static-website/ What is a static we...""
(view diff)
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rascul
static sites are the best
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cuibonobo
"Deployment of RDFa, Microdata, and Microformats on the Web"
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aaronpk
why is that a pdf
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cuibonobo
academia loves PDFs
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cuibonobo
at least i found a version that wasn't behind a paywall
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cuibonobo
very interesting results
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aaronpk
pdf;dr. summary?
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cuibonobo
74.75% of the top 100 websites use structured data, compared to 5.64% of all websites
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cuibonobo
microformats seem to be the most popular
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cuibonobo
(at least compared to RDFa and MicroData)
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cuibonobo
they have a cool table of most frequently used microformats classes
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aaronpk
vcard is most popular by over 10x?
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cuibonobo
"Concerning the topical domains of the published data, we found out that the dominant
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cuibonobo
domains are: persons and organizations (represented using all three formats), blog- and
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cuibonobo
CMS-related metadata (represented using RDFa and Microdata), navigational metadata
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cuibonobo
(represented using RDFa and Microdata), product data (represented using all three
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cuibonobo
formats), and event data (represented using a Microformat)"
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cuibonobo
it's weird that microformats are used more than RDFa or Microdata, yet they are primarily only used for people and events
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cuibonobo
"Concerning the structural richness of the published data, we found out that many websites only use a small set of rather generic properties to describe entities."
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cuibonobo
i suppose microformats2 puts a kink in this data. i'd love to see data on uF1 vs uF2 adoption
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tantek
cuibonobo: uf1 has a huge headstart
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tantek
and it's been the easiest thing to deploy to get rich snippets in google et al since 2009
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tantek
rdfa support was claimed but not actually supported for many months (maybe late 2009 or early 2010). and no microdata support til 2011. so they're obviously going to be way behind.
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techlifeweb
!tell snarfed Look's like you are getting around the brid.gy quirk "incoming webmentions come from me" on your site. How? Template code?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
we don't know if/when google et al will (or is) parsing uf2. they've expressed interest in various channels due to the simpler parsing model and canonical JSON/data output of uf2 (makes it quite easy for them to add support)
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cuibonobo
tantek: oh! i didn't mean search engines. i meant people actually using them on their websites.
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cuibonobo
given that, say, they visited the microformats years ago and haven't since
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cuibonobo
or they're looking at an old blog post or something
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tantek
cuibonobo: sure, I just meant search engines as one driver responsible for some of the disparities you're seeing
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tantek
the open web crawls have shown similar results
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tantek
even recent crawls show microformats as far more used than all others put together
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tantek
easier, lots of resources, and there happens to be a community of helpful folks
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tantek
with the others, not so much
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kylewm
techlifeweb: that's an issue with wordpress.com (and Disqus and Blogger), snarfed's WP is self-hosted
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cuibonobo
tantek: yeah, the paper i was reading shows a very wide microformats adoption and it's from 2013
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cuibonobo
but the class names they were looking at were for microformats1, which got me to wondering
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mlinksva_
i'd love to see uf2 data too. i looked to see if in latest webdatacommons extract and no. i believe path to get there would be to add uf2 parser to any23 there's an open issue https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/ANY23-207
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techlifeweb
kylewm: I'm self hosted too and I have the issue
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kylewm
techlifeweb: link?
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kylewm
sorry
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kylewm
+.com
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kylewm
got it
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tantek
thanks mlinksva - do you have the ability to comment on that issue?
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Loqi
snarfed: techlifeweb left you a message 8 minutes ago: Look's like you are getting around the brid.gy quirk "incoming webmentions come from me" on your site. How? Template code?
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snarfed
techlifeweb: looks like you're on self-hosted wordpress? not wp.com?
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tantek
mlinksva: even if you could just add a link to current uf2 parser libraries that would be a big help: http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers#microformats2_parsers
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techlifeweb
snarfed: yes, self hosted.
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snarfed
if so, use pfefferle's plugins (e.g. the indieweb bundle) to handle incoming webmentions instead of bridgy
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snarfed
(todo for me, bridgy should do a better job of warning you about this)
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kylewm
oh fascinating, you can sign up as a wordpress.com user even if you self-host?
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kylewm
sorry, sign up to bridgy's wordpress.com stuff
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techlifeweb
snarfed: thanks. I had them then removed them because bridgy was saying my webmention endpoint was wrong
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techlifeweb
kylewm: yes if you have jetpack
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cuibonobo
tantek, mlinksva: i created an account so i could watch the issue. i can go ahead and add the link as well.
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tantek
thanks cuibonobo!
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snarfed
techlifeweb: thanks for the nudge. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/256
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cuibonobo
oh! haha. mlinksva posted as well
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mlinksva
heh
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cuibonobo
mlinksva: i did not realize you were Mike Linksvayer!! I follow your blog and really love your copyright stuff. It has been a huge influence on me!
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mlinksva
cuibonobo: thanks!
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techlifeweb
snarfed: no problem. pfefferle was mentioned somewhere along the line as I was setting things up and it got confusing (mostly because I'm still wrapping my mind around the various indieweb terms). I've got a Google Doc I'm writing up things as I get them configured in Wordpress so I'll post that someday soon when thing smooth out on my site.
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snarfed
techlifeweb: great! or even better, incorporate them into http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
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tantek
snarfed, techlifeweb was this the problem of installing all the "indieweb" plugins and somehow they conflicted or something?
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snarfed
tantek: no. bridgy new user ux needs improving. details in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/256
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techlifeweb
tantek: I installed indieweb plugin then when I signed up for brid.gy it said my webmention endpoint was not correct as I think he's looking for the <a rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"></a>
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techlifeweb
whoops. Missed him.
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rascul
techlifeweb you can !tell tantek I installed indieweb plugin...
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rascul
then Loqi will tell tantek next time he's seen
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kylewm
techlifeweb: hmm, it should've been looking for href="http://yoursite/some-path/webmention"
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kylewm
not brid.gy/webmention/wordpress
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snarfed
kylewm: no, this is different
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kylewm
stops making things worse
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snarfed
kylewm: :P nah it's just confusing. this is one of the sanity checks for when you're signing up as a wp.com blog, and we tell you to add the endpoint to your html, and then we check that you did it right
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snarfed
we should instead detect self-hosted wp blogs and handle them differently. it's https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/256
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Loqi
it is probable
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kylewm
how would you detect the difference? check whether their IP is in the wordpress.com range?
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snarfed
kylewm: oh man i hope not. i'm hoping the wp.com api tells me
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snarfed
looks like maybe it's the `jetpack` field here: https://developer.wordpress.com/docs/api/1/get/sites/%24site/
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kylewm
so does Jetpack make wordpress.org act like wordpress.com?
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snarfed
in many ways, yeah
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tantek
thanks for the clarification snarfed, techlifeweb
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techlifeweb
!tell tantek I installed indieweb plugin then when I signed up for brid.gy it said my webmention endpoint was not correct as I think he's looking for the <a rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"></a>
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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techlifeweb
rascul: thanks
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KartikPrabhu
but now tantek is here already :P
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Loqi
tantek: techlifeweb left you a message 1 minute ago: I installed indieweb plugin then when I signed up for brid.gy it said my webmention endpoint was not correct as I think he's looking for the <a rel="webmention" href="https://www.brid.gy/webmention/wordpress"></a>
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techlifeweb
KartikPrabhu: that's what I get for looking under "t" and now "@t" in my IRC list :P
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cuibonobo
can anyone make sense of this "Using microformats" page on MDN: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Using_microformats#See_also
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cuibonobo
when was native handling of microformats dropped from Firefox?
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tantek
heh - probably needs updating
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tantek
not sure it ever was? the support was always through a built-in js shim
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tantek
not sure it was ever dropped that is
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tantek
cuibonobo, it's been in there since FF3, but not used much except for the operator add-on
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tantek
and frankly it would be rewritten very differently and likely natively if it were done today
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tantek
there's been some discussion of updating it to microformats2
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bret
ngoldman, I managed to get http://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub somewhat refactored and working again