#indiewebcamp

2014-09-19

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@shanley
WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qtRqxHXe9s)
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@LynnMagic
RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qtRtbcg_nV)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512856572096032769/512857049449771008 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#Past_Work (webmention)
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@shanley
Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtS9mTq2Nw)
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@thetrudz
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtSEBQkuqf)
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@mirell
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtSEVmjPxt)
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@designwitch
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtSLWf9Tk5)
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@_plantain
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtSepSGomw)
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@marmisaryn
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtSgeKgEA8)
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@lindsay40k
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtSmkg9aMb)
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@starthumbshine
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtT4gjH015)
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@Meche64
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtT7g8PsAf)
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@glynmoody
#Known, the #Indieweb, and one possible future for your digital life - http://garethjordan.withknown.com/2014/known-the-indieweb-and-one-possible-future-for-your-digital this looks an interesting new project (twtr.io/qtTB0jpAYY)
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@ErinManker
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtTNHMW_1c)
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@zts
This doesn't set out to be amusing, but it sure manages it: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtTPDgFNNw)
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@DownBytheBayLee
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtTTr1twcL)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/302813334 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@competentgirl
RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qtTb6UhDYo)
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@hpk42
@janl is this database antipattern page a random page or some kind of majority opinion within the indieweb community? (twtr.io/qtThNEhHxL)
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@Baneki
RT @glynmoody: #Known, the #Indieweb, and one possible future for your digital life - http://garethjordan.withknown.com/2014/known-the-indieweb-and-one-possible-future-for-your-digital this looks an interesting new … (twtr.io/qtTpMXSJTC)
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@eshamow
RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qtTrD01WA9)
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Haxxa
Yep just had another go at installing withknown - it works until end of setup in which it redirects me to /begin which doesn't exist
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@eshamow
RT @zts: This doesn't set out to be amusing, but it sure manages it: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtUGnet3rU)
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@shanley
.@aral You are a white man. You asked me how i feel about your statement on how much you care about diversity. indieweb is NOT diverse. (twtr.io/qtUGoRVBYH)
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@shanley
the hypocrisy and lack of introspection is so deep in indieweb. DEEP. they want back pats and medals for poorly written manifestos. (twtr.io/qtVH34LFhw)
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@geeky_zekey
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtVT06nx0o)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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kou
i care about spambots
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kou
so i've come here to pet them
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Loqi
kou: gRegor` left you a message 1 week, 6 days ago: successfully cross-posted a couple earlier today, one was in-reply-to.
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Loqi
kou: kylewm left you a message on 3/18 at 10:24am: set up a mf2py endpoint for my branch here http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url= . you can see the changes from the PR I sent here in the published properties, http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2014%2F075%2Ft1%2Factions-consequences-planning-regardless
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Loqi
kou: gRegor` left you a message 1 week, 6 days ago: successfully cross-posted a couple earlier today, one was in-reply-to.
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Haxxa
Just checking if anyone familar with known?
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Haxxa
I really can't solve my issue of redirecting to /hostname.com/begin which doesn't exist :/
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@waynehartman
RT @cbarrett: Oh dear. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtXgxb6Q_8)
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@lordminx
@_klausi_ Wenn man sich die Teilnehmer*innen Bilder der #Indieweb camps schauts nicht viel anders aus: http://indiewebcamp.com/Previous_IndieWebCamps (twtr.io/qtYhnhrL6Q)
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@travisatkins
RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qtZ6iHqUQY)
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@travisatkins
RT @cbarrett: Oh dear. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qt_QNjP0yg)
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@MildredMarianne
RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qt_uW1NzV4)
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@lordminx
Hihihi, gestern poste ich was mich am Indieweb stört, heute explodiert meine TL mit @shanley 's Abrechnung damit. <3 (twtr.io/qtaC3EHpN9)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@fantasticlife
RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twtr.io/qtaggNgs4H)
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@ShaneHudson
@Jermolene I would just like to note that it isn't an article. It is thoughts from various people. #indieweb certainly does not hate DBs (twtr.io/qtbVQe_hmQ)
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@mxey
RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtbXfBDCEw)
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@Jermolene
RT @ShaneHudson: @Jermolene I would just like to note that it isn't an article. It is thoughts from various people. #indieweb certainly doe… (twtr.io/qtc6dTyjcM)
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@monkchips
RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twtr.io/qtcMMAmZxM)
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@ShaneHudson
@Jermolene They develop organically through conversations in person and on irc. Like this one on https: http://indiewebcamp.com/https (twtr.io/qtcNy69xUZ)
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@davebally
RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twtr.io/qtcw38D6VL)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@loltimo
RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtinTwhrek)
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@kevinmarks
@ireneista @duckinator have you seen the indieWebcamp irc logs? They solve that. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-19 (twtr.io/qtiuPcuPdf)
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ShaneHudson
Woo I've got twitter posse working manually again now :) I really do need to brush up on my php, always lets me down
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alanpear_
PHP is a fickle frankenbeast :(
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pfefferle
alanpear_ :)
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finalcut
Haxxa : I don't know if you're still here. I had similar issue that I self created. After getting known working I tried to edit the config.ini file and point to a different mongodb; at that point it just stayed stuck at the begin page and I could never move forward. I had to point back to my first mongodb instance. My "begin" page exists though (http://rawlinson.us/begin)
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@netizenrights
RT @glynmoody: #Known, the #Indieweb, and one possible future for your digital life - http://garethjordan.withknown.com/2014/known-the-indieweb-and-one-possible-future-for-your-digital this looks an interesting new … (twtr.io/qtkq9vAqaj)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks: RE ^^^, the IRC logs are rendered to HTML but stored in a database IIRC, so your assertion is incorrect
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Loqi
barnabywalters: jonnybarnes left you a message on 9/18 at 9:26am: now that you use https on shrewdness you should use https://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/leaflet/0.7.3/leaflet.js for leaflet as per kylewm's suggestion
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@emallson
RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtrG2JSw4H)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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shanehudson.net
edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+290) "Added POSSE to my site" (view diff)
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shanehudson.net
edited /POSSE (+483) "/* Jeremy Keith */" (view diff)
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Loqi
[mention] https://petermolnar.eu/replies/dont-keep-your-opinions-to-yourself/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmentions (webmention)
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@tommorris
@hpk42 @janl indieweb = your personal preferences ARE the only requirements. (twtr.io/qtsn5aGzXC)
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petermolnar
uh, I need to remove that link in my footer to the webmentions page :D
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@tachyondecay
Wait, this is a thing? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Seriously? This isn’t just someone trolling? (twtr.io/qtsq1tGhJf)
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@hpk42
@tommorris @janl not sure i follow. I write software to be used in an indieweb way by others, the software gives certain guarantees e.g.ACID (twtr.io/qtt5ZFFYBm)
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alanpear_
warms hands in front of the twitter fire
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@tommorris
@hpk42 @janl Well, if you are writing software that needs a DB, use it. Point is for indieweb people, writing software for ourselves first. (twtr.io/qttGLtQrGG)
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@puppet_ebooks
RT #stevesalaita: I'm speaking at companies like INDIEWEB IS INCHARGE doesn't mean *I'M* the good one ever living feminism in exchange fo... (twtr.io/qttiTm7uJf)
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@hpk42
@tommorris @janl oh is "write software for myself first" really at the core of indieweb? I thought it's "deploy software on your own site". (twtr.io/qtuKVnvbKC)
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@DanielBaird
RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twtr.io/qtv8yeaxHu)
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ben_thatmustbeme
hello there indiechat
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ben_thatmustbeme
er indiewebcamp
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alanpear_
Hullo
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ShaneHudson
Hey :)
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ShaneHudson
I've got POSSE working now but I'm still by habit replying to tweets on twitter.com
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alanpear_
#indieworldproblems?
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petermolnar
alanpear_++
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Loqi
alanpear has 1 karma
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alanpear_
But I am alanpearce :(
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alanpearce_
stupid auto-nick thing :D
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petermolnar
alanpearce++ , better? :)
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Loqi
alanpearce has 1 karma
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alanpearce_
alanpear--
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Loqi
dude
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alanpearce_
Loqi forgot
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Loqi
dude
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petermolnar
one does not simply tell Loqi to --
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alanpearce_
:)
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ShaneHudson
Lol
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/512909675080069120/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-19 (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme
ShaneHudson, yeah I still find it hard not to reply on twitter or FB
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alanpearce_
Build your own timeline system :)
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@aphyr
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qtwG4CvvaY)
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alanpearce_
The flames just keep going on…
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@anderiasch
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qtwdSWi5jY)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@entropiae
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qtxNijkYwZ)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme
when did that start?
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@old_sound
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qtxo1onb6R)
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@rafeco
“Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” A whole page of terrible advice. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtxvRUh_sq)
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@postwait
Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qty8EchAcu)
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@aaron_pendley
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtyC1SY9Ef)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /database-antipattern (-6) "/* DBA tax */ typos "setting up doing tables" -> "setting up tables"" (view diff)
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@kenhorn
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern < +1, hilarious (twtr.io/qtyZPMr5fH)
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@dissolve333
Ben Roberts September 19, 2014 9:08 AM Everyone is freaking out about #indieweb and the characterization of… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/1/_) (twtr.io/qtyn7uYdYY)
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petermolnar
though I disagree with the anti-db page as well, I'm getting a bit annoyed about the meaningless tweets around it; add debate beside databases, people, not just ridiculous comments.
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ben_thatmustbeme
looks like my markup needs some fixing...
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@trawg
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtz3FZy3XC)
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@mwotton
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qtz4usgnwo)
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmmm, what am I doing wrong with that one?
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@jacksonj04
http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern um (twtr.io/qtzBTvyhuw)
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@garnaat
So, is http://indiewebcamp.com kind of like an Onion for the tech world. That's the only explanation I can think of. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtzC_cMyts)
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@parzzix
How would 120gb traffic translate to site visits? Guestimations anyone #indieweb #webhosting #web (twtr.io/qtzCk6rv5b)
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@chrismunns
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtzELXdDps)
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alanpearce_
probably started around here: https://twitter.com/duckinator/status/512843898712891392
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@duckinator
.@kevinmarks says instead of DBs, "data should be in flat files (e.g. .md, HTML, etc) to ensure long-term durability" http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtLQ_fvyiC)
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@chrskly
What the actual fuck? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtzGCfKTvj)
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@tobiassvn
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qtzNs9fKQp)
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@GeekPopLife
RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qtzdD3o3C0)
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@GeekPopLife
RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twtr.io/qtzdrnARZt)
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@charliesome
loooollllll http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtzfxqoLLG)
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@GeekPopLife
RT @shanley: .@aral You are a white man. You asked me how i feel about your statement on how much you care about diversity. indieweb is NOT… (twtr.io/qtzgFppypc)
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@GeekPopLife
RT @shanley: the hypocrisy and lack of introspection is so deep in indieweb. DEEP. they want back pats and medals for poorly written manife… (twtr.io/qtzk5bL_VM)
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@MattRogish
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qtztRso9xL)
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finalcut
tell Haxxa - you might not have url rewriting turned on in apache if you are getting a page not found error with the begin page. I was just able to recreate it by removing url rewriting.
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ben_thatmustbeme
wow, @duckinator basically took it to MySQL vs HTML
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alanpearce_
Yeah.
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alanpearce_
Which isn't so unreasonable on the face of it
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alanpearce_
But then it just goes on and round and ergh
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah
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finalcut
!tell Haxxa - you might not have url rewriting turned on in apache if you are getting a page not found error with the begin page. I was just able to recreate it by removing url rewriting
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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finalcut
sorry for the double - i didn't realize I needed the ! at first
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ben_thatmustbeme
ah, finally got down to the last of it, have to admit i glossed over a bit
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ben_thatmustbeme
and yes, the IRC logs are stored in a DB
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alanpearce_
Sounds like a prime area where text files are actually useful :(
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ben_thatmustbeme
not liking that brid.gy posted my name and data... https://twitter.com/dissolve333/status/512951326662090752 Anyone see something wrong with my markup?
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@dissolve333
Ben Roberts September 19, 2014 9:08 AM Everyone is freaking out about #indieweb and the characterization of… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/1/_) (twtr.io/qtyn7uYdYY)
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@RonKJeffries
Next year I want to attend XOXO--sounds like great fun. http://www.kevinmarks.com/xoxofest2014a.html #indieweb @kevinmarks @withknown @evanpro (twtr.io/qu0PtMohsp)
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@davegandy
“Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” - http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern I needed a good laugh. (twtr.io/qu0T5dQiXC)
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ben_thatmustbeme
I was working more on IndieStats last night by my own version.. i think bear has the right idea just storing everything to files encoded in JSON. easy to pass between languages
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@oahner
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qu0dhdUQY0)
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@beezly
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu0oZ5TEuw)
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petermolnar
nice, we're getting two flame wars :D
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alanpearce_
You mean there's another one?
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@iand675
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qu1C3fRXj0)
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ben_thatmustbeme
well hey, they say there is no such thing as bad publicity
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ben_thatmustbeme
here we go, round 2
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@davepkennedy
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu1GCszHYp)
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@peakscale
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu1KYCFRHu)
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@EthanHann
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/qu1S_Uxegs)
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@fulmicoton
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu1ikordTC)
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tommorris
Twitter is in full 'principle of charity' mode today.
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@wfarr
I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu1n0JUUo0)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'll just ask snarfed later what is wrong with my markup
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ben_thatmustbeme
i guess
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alanpearce_
I didn't see anything wrong when I looked.
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alanpearce_
Did you try running it through any of the parsers?
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@AakashMehendale
@jxxf @postwait yes, it says right here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Alternatives ; and says you might want to "build a database-like API on top"... (twtr.io/qu1xHdT3U1)
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@drnic
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu1xVU96h8)
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@ephoz
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu2D3Burej)
#
Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512960436762058752 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@pjb3
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu2FNBeJQ0)
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ben_thatmustbeme
alanpearce_ yes, it looks fine
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh... huh... its getting it as part of the name
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ben_thatmustbeme
http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnote%2F2014%2F9%2F19%2F1%2F_
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@petersabaini
I'm developr! MT @_jared “Using databases as primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu2Ppxxr0H)
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alanpearce_
aha :D
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@finalcut
Some instructions to help people trying to self host @WithKnown on #ubuntu http://rawlinson.us/2014/setting-up-known-on-ubuntu #indieweb (twtr.io/qu2VPc1j28)
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@sixty4k
RT @wfarr: I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu2YbRLmMs)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't quite get why though
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barnabywalters
tries
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barnabywalters
huh
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barnabywalters
I tried to look up “principle of charity” on wikipedia and get “Cannot contact the database server: Too many connections”
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey barnabywalters
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@betamatt
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu2mAb2VL0)
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barnabywalters
which, in the context, is rather ironic
#
alanpearce_
DATABASE ANTIPATTERN
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alanpearce_
:D
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha
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Loqi
awesome
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barnabywalters
a bit worried though, in all seriousness — WP is pretty important to say the least
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barnabywalters
ah, it’s back up now
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@_tholmes
RT @charliesome: loooollllll http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu2qJ6LE94)
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@boffbowsh
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu2rCfDaD4)
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barnabywalters
I can totally see how, read out of context, /databases-antipattern seems ridiculous
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barnabywalters
maybe there should be additional clarification there
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@muthafaka
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu30EWHMmg)
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alanpearce_
Yeah, the twitter thing is just a reduction to the absurd.
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alanpearce_
ben_thatmustbeme: looks like you have some HTML mismatching
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ben_thatmustbeme
i updated it to add p-name to the content if there is no title
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ben_thatmustbeme
but yesh, i see that now... don't tell GWG
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@isofarro
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu3FUqDxFj)
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tommorris.org
edited /database-antipattern (+20) "slight copyedit" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
was missing a </section> tag after the login box.. should not have effected that
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ben_thatmustbeme
that article is worded a little strongly, but its hard to not agree with a lot of what it says, for long term storage, databases are not the way to go
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tommorris
"never ever use a database ever" sounds a lot crazier than "for the use cases of personal publishing, you may not need a RDBMS".
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@weems
RT @wfarr: I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu3faH7m80)
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@neapel
RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu3gVgeesY)
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@dissolve333
#indieweb http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern hard to argue that if I had only kept DB copies of all my old data i'd have them… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/2/_) (twtr.io/qu3hJrt3rU)
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, it is a bit harsh
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barnabywalters
I wish there was a way to easily see how many people who’ve tweeted/retweeted condemning /database-antipattern host their personal site statically (or even have a personal site)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think the intention of it being for "long term storage of personal documents" is where people are missing the focus.
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alanpearce_
Hmm, what about Yahoo's query thing?
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@glenscott
WTF? "Rather than using a database for storage, use open well established formats like HTML + microformats," http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu3rCLzN5s)
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tommorris.org
edited /database-antipattern (+740) "/* FAQ */ expand with some kind words for our new Twitter fans" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmmm, grep them out of the logs here, look up their twitter account and then find if they point to any URL
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /database-antipattern (+63) "/* What, you mean, never use a database ever? That's crazy! */ added note about long-term archives" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
tommorris: thanks for those copy-edits, the tone is quite a bit better now
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barnabywalters
#indiewebcamp reaction to twitter storm = make the wiki better
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pfefferle_
tommorris++
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Loqi
tommorris has 45 karma
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alanpearce_
is confused
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barnabywalters
tommorris++
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Loqi
tommorris has 46 karma
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alanpearce_
who is alanpearce__
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tommorris
barnabywalters: kinda had practice from wikipedia.
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@sogrady
i assume this is all just an elaborate troll, but if not, well, wow: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern via/ @postwait (twtr.io/qu4AVgda1L)
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neuro`
An interested project http://oct.zoy.org/2014/09/08/the-flickr-attributor.html
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neuro`
Open source so you can host yours
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@miguelinlas3
Are you kidding me? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu4Fqf9oDs)
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tommorris.org
edited /database-antipattern (+369) "/* FAQ */ adding another FAQ" (view diff)
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tommorris.org
edited /database-antipattern (+173) "mediawiki, I hate you" (view diff)
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tommorris.org
edited /database-antipattern (-87) "/* Isn't flat-files a form of database? */ actually, that might be a bit OTT" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
^^^ LOL
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neuro`
Do you guys consider sqlite as a database then?
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tommorris.org
edited /database-antipattern (+17) "lead tighten" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
of course
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ben_thatmustbeme
i certainly would
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neuro`
It's not. No maintenance, no daemon, no install
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neuro`
no server
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alanpearce_
It's still a database, just not a database server
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ben_thatmustbeme
anyone who has tried to open a sqlite v2 DB with sqlite v3, will know its still just as fragile
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alanpearce_
Just like you could use PHP to serialize an array of objects to a file
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ben_thatmustbeme
if I had sqlite v1 db lying around I wouldn't exactly be getting my data out of it right now
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neuro`
I like sqlite
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neuro`
more and more
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ben_thatmustbeme
i like that there is no server install, thats nice, but its still putting all your content eggs in one databasket
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tommorris
`sudo apt-get install sqlite3` is kinda an install.
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ben_thatmustbeme
with flat files, if i have one corruption, recovery on that one files is pretty easy. with a DB, if that files corrupts, the likelyhood to recover is a LOT lower
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neuro`
gem install jeckhyll too
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ben_thatmustbeme
tommorris++
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Loqi
tommorris has 47 karma
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alanpearce_
tommorris: That's only for the command-line client thouhg, really.
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tommorris
sure, you have to install bindings for your language and plenty else besides.
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tommorris
I use and like Postgres.
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alanpearce_
I want to use postgres at work.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i always have a hard time getting php to play nice with sqlite
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alanpearce_
But no :(
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tommorris
What would be nice is if people are so insistent on using databases for personal storage, they made the backup systems suck less.
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tommorris
So maybe if you type `apt-get install postgres-personal`, you'd get a nice wizard that would set up autobackup syncing to Dropbox or S3 or something.
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tommorris
Also, through shit management interfaces, I've managed to delete terabytes of data. Good thing we kept the original data in flat-file. ;-)
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ben_thatmustbeme
honestly this is getting me to wonder if I should move away from a DB myself. the more i think about it, its the stuff that I happened to back up in html or flat files are the stuff i still have around
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ben_thatmustbeme
all the DBs are gone
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@iand675
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu583vGc2w)
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ben_thatmustbeme
change that wiki page to "Wow, Words cannot express... Well Try. Its called discourse"
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alanpearce_
I thought you were talking about Discourse for a second, I was confused :D
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ben_thatmustbeme
didn't even know about it
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is Discourse
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Discourse" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Discourse
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@keithf4
I'm pretty much at a loss for words for this http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu5P6HPznC)
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tommorris
ben_thatmustbeme: David Lewis once said that he would present his theories from 'On the Plurality of Worlds' and just get back incredulous stares. His response: "I cannot refute an incredulous stare"
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@isamlambert
RT @wfarr: I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu5U8vZshf)
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ben_thatmustbeme
good quote
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tommorris
Lewis also said in a later edition: "I once complained that my modal realism met with many incredulous stares, but few argued objections. The arguments were soon forthcoming. I think they have been adequately countered. They lead at worse to standoffs. The incredulous stares remain. They remain unanswerable."
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tommorris
Which has something rather Early Wittgenstein about it. "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
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barnabywalters
taking a look at the profiles/personal sites of a few of the angry retweeters reveals (warning: cursory anecdata) ≈30% have static personal sites (esp. github pages), many are database engineers
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@spifferiferfied
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu5vSKgNzC)
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, i was just about to do that search barnabywalters
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barnabywalters
also a few with no personal site, or hosted (e.g. about.me)
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tommorris
https://twitter.com/tommorris/status/512971400131665921
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@tommorris
"Not use a database? That's crazy thinking", the developer said before updating his Github Pages-hosted Jekyll site. (twtr.io/qu5xNZN9RM)
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barnabywalters
(interestingly, tantek (arguably the biggest anti-database advocate) used to work on database client and server software at oracle and holds database-related patents http://tantek.com/projects/resume.html
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alanpearce_
Maybe he got jaded :D
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@danlyke
@rafeco a lot of that in the indieweb community. See the reinvention of mistakes that is WebMention, for instance. (twtr.io/qu6B1hRVt4)
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barnabywalters
my point being that this argument isn’t being made by clueless newbies
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snarfed
agreed
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snarfed
you all have heard the quote, "any sufficiently complex C program includes a half-baked, bug ridden implementation of common lisp," right?
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alanpearce_
Of course :)
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snarfed
well, any sufficiently complex flat file webapp usually includes a half-baked, bug ridden implementation of a database
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tommorris
...which is still preferable to MySQL.
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snarfed
heh
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snarfed
it would be a slightly different argument if that page was entitled *mysql*-antipattern
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alanpearce_
I dunno, some people still use it :(
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alanpearce_
GitHub :/
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snarfed
s/some/tons/
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tommorris
snarfed: the problem with "the MySQL antipattern" is the word "the".
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alanpearce_
tommorris: that works for PHP, too :D
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snarfed
sure. mysql has weakness, just like most large pieces of software
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barnabywalters
where “some people” == everyone on shared hosting AKA the only afforable hosting for most
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alanpearce_
I haven't seen any shared hosting cheaper than the VPSes I rent :/
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barnabywalters
alanpearce_: you’re ignoring the huge cost of learning to use a VPS
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snarfed
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 68 karma
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alanpearce_
Well, I don't fully see time and money as freely convertible, so I parsed your sentence differently
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snarfed
they don't have to be freely convertible to both be costs
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barnabywalters
snarfed: agreed about the buggy reimplementation, have done that myself, but still misses the point that DBs are excellent for indexing, searching, caching etc but v. poor for long term (10+ years) storage
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petermolnar
ben_thatmustbeme sqlite v1 is basically plain text, you will be able to get out whatever you want.
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@parzzix
Wondering if I should separate @withknown and a full time blog or use it for both? #indieweb (twtr.io/qu6g44G7xs)
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barnabywalters
no reason not to use both, e.g. aaronpk with p3k
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@nshttpd
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu6hzFqKSw)
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@kennygorman
#FaceFuckingPalm RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu6iT_GUJ8)
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snarfed
barnabywalters: sure! although big community and ecosystem helps long term viability a *lot*, and big dbs like mysql do have that
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snarfed
if the main argument was about long term viability, it'd seem more reasonable
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ben_thatmustbeme
petermolnar, was using it as an example, never used v1
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@parzzix
Also, should I keep a static page somewhere? For fallback? #indieweb (twtr.io/qu6sJAAWBC)
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@8bitsofsketch
RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twtr.io/qu6szoJgZt)
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barnabywalters
snarfed: in my view the main argument is about long term viability, but I’m not representative of /databases-antipattern (or vice versa)
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snarfed
yup
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barnabywalters
alanpearce_: OOI where do you rent your VPSes?
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barnabywalters
I’m looking for a new (more reliable, ideally cheaper) provider
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ben_thatmustbeme
for u in `curl -sL http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today |grep -E '<Loqi>\W+\[@' |sed 's/.*<Loqi>\W\+\[@\(\w\+\)\].*/\1/' |uniq`; do echo -n $u " "; curl -sL https://twitter.com/$u | grep 'rel="me nofollow"' |sed 's/.*title="\([^"]*\)".*/\1/'; done
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Loqi
:)
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ben_thatmustbeme
how i am pulling every tweet from today to see who has pages or not
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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ben_thatmustbeme
actually, let me fix that a little
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ben_thatmustbeme
for u in `curl -sL http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today |grep -E '<Loqi>\W+\[@' |sed 's/.*<Loqi>\W\+\[@\(\w\+\)\].*/\1/' |sort |uniq`; do echo -ne "\n$u "; curl -sL https://twitter.com/$u | grep 'rel="me nofollow"' |sed 's/.*title="\([^"]*\)".*/\1/' ; done
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ben_thatmustbeme
better, not perfect, still getting some extra blank lines
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gRegor`
How is the Great Indieweb Rubbernecking of 2014 going?
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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snarfed1
gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi
gRegornobacktick has 17 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
wow, someone's rel=me on twitter links to someone else's twitter status
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Loqi
[mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-09-19_the-database-antipattern linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (pingback)
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snarfed1
ben_thatmustbeme: whoa, weird
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@n01s3
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/qu845XpcvC)
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gRegor`
Nice edits to /database-antipattern, tommorris.
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gRegor`
tommorris++
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Loqi
tommorris has 48 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
snarfed1 yeah, look https://twitter.com/neapel
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ben_thatmustbeme
79.34% of tweets today were people that had a rel=me link
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neuro`
Not bad
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@mshook
This is the podcast that got me started on the indieweb: This Week in Google 266 | http://TWiT.TV http://twit.tv/show/this-week-in-google/266 (twtr.io/qu8JYzfkSQ)
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ben_thatmustbeme
92 users, 71 have sites, 1 has fb, 1 has twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme
that was the 73/92
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ben_thatmustbeme
3 were about.me
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ben_thatmustbeme
random stats for the day
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha
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@NoelMcKinney
"This is because databases always require extra 'magic' for backups etc." http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern HT @garnaat (twtr.io/qu8YXbSGPU)
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ben_thatmustbeme
wait until round 3 of the tweet flood starts
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gRegor`
Attention was brought to the page through a KevinMarks + Shanley interaction on Twitter. A lot of Shanley's followers are DBAs or "make databases for fun"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /database-antipattern (-3) "/* databases for storage */ -- typo" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /database-antipattern (+16) "/* databases for storage */ phrasing, avoiding "CMS's"" (view diff)
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@reinergaertner
Bye-bye, Google & co. - unabhängig von Datenkraken. Mein Selbstversuch: http://rgae.de/24 #indieweb, #Synology #BaikalServer #yourls (twtr.io/qu9JA_q8hg)
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gRegor`
Huh. I thought MW would warn if other changes were made to the page.
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gRegor`
(While editing)
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gRegor`
No collision, though
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gRegor`
"databases for storage" as a lone top-level heading seems odd on that page.
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gRegor`
Should "databases for caching" be another top level, briefly explaining and linking to Main: database-cache?
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gRegor`
Or perhaps just eliminate it and move the other headings up
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ben_thatmustbeme
kind of a neat stat to look at though, for all twitter mentions that loqi picks up, who has personal sites;
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gregorlove.com
edited /antipatterns (+16) "/* databases for storage */ phrasing, avoiding "CMS's"" (view diff)
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tommorris
gRegor`: MediaWiki's merge algorithm is fairly good.
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tantek.com
created /database-antipattern, (+34) "r due to IRC logs auto-link reference" (view diff)
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gRegor`
I'm pretty sure there was ind.ie and indieweb confusion in Shanley's tweets last night, once aral engaged her.
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gRegor`
Not that it matters much. Pretty sure by that point she had lumped us under one umbrella labelled "shitty"
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tantek__
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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neuro`
Good morning tantek__
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gRegor`
Morning, tantek___
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tantek__
such a quiet Friday ;)
#
gRegor`
Have an extra underscore
#
gRegor`
_
#
tantek__
Would like an extra backtick? ;)
#
gRegor`
Hehe
#
@parzzix
How would 120gb traffic translate to site visits? Guestimations anyone #indieweb #webhosting #web https://plus.google.com/+TimAppleNixGuy/posts/akheGGBzJ7L (twtr.io/quAYdALiSw)
#
tantek__
g+;dr
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey tantek__
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tantek__
G+ has been training me to not click on plus.google.com links due to being so slow to load and scroll.
#
tantek__
must be because they're using a DB. ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats just going to be are default comeback to everything now isn't it?
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ShaneHudson
gRegor`: I don't think there was much confusion... she was referring to 'white males' who work for large corporations, which is the case for some here (though I don't see how it is a problem!)
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@BrianStien
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/quAqs_ApXj)
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tantek__
props on recent wiki edits - nice cleanup and additions tommorris, gregor`, shanehudson, ben_thatmustbe
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danlyke
barnabywalters, I don't remember when I moved Flutterby.com from flat file to database, but it's been 10+ years. SQL text file backups. Started Flutterby.net as flat file, but as it grows I'm headed back towards databases.
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tantek__
ShaneHudson it is a problem because any cluster of homogeneity is vulnerable to /monoculture thinking.
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ShaneHudson
tantek__: Yeah but that means we need more diversity, not less of who we already have :)
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tantek__
ShaneHudson, correct, more diversity on the indieweb is essential, and thus it behooves all of us who are or resemble any kind of dominant homogeneity to reach beyond usual friend circles, similar backgrounds, similar appearances, etc.
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ShaneHudson
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 77 karma
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barnabywalters
danlyke: that’s good to hear!
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danlyke
barnabywalters yeah, the way I figure it is that a filesystem is a database, anything on top of me reading and writing bits by toggling SPI lines is, we need tools to read everything, so layering on top of other code is a good simplification.
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tantek__
danlyke, the "filesystem is a database" reasoning is flawed, in that it ignores the broader context that tools to backup/inspect file systems are *far* more automatic/easy (and already in use) than the same for *separate* such things for databases.
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tantek__
what is SPI?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "SPI" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SPI
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tommorris
SCP/rsync etc. > mysqldump/pgdump
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tommorris
And I say that as someone who uses Postgres and likes it a lot.
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@NickFitz
“Databases are hard, let’s go shopping!” Utterly pathetic: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (via @postwait, @isofarro) (twtr.io/quBWbAGC5L)
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ben_thatmustbeme
sqldumps work, still not the best way to store backups really though. I want me backups to be program agnostic, sqldumps really aren't
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ben_thatmustbeme
if I want to future proof them that is
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barnabywalters
SPI == serial peripheral interface?
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tantek__
ben_tahtmustbeme exactly! sqldumps are not program agnostic, nor future friendly, nevermind future proof
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tantek__
s/ben_tahtmustbeme/ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have AIM chat logs going back to 2002, only reason i still have those around are the aim+ or whatever mod I was using at the time, stored all logs as html
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tantek__
perhaps we should start a page on /longevity
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tantek__
what is longevity?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "longevity" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=longevity
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tantek__
with examples like that ben_thatmustbeme
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danlyke
barnabywalters tabntek__ yes, SPI = serial peripheral interface. Bit twiddling to read and write data.
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ben_thatmustbeme
but my e-mails from back then are gone because I stored them all in a program that kept them in a DB. sure they claim the DB was portable, but here I am years later, and I don't have them
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@schnarfed
@sean_lynch :( http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twtr.io/quBqYnGP6f)
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tantek__
ben_thatmustbeme exactly. no DB is portable across time. all their formats have changed so much that good luck opening any DB *file* (not export) from 10+ years ago.
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gRegor`
I really liked Jeremy Keith's "All Our Yesterdays" talk on longevity. I saw it shortly before I came across indiewebcamp. http://gregorlove.com/2013/05/1153/
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tantek__
gRegor` perhaps start /longevity with a brief dfn and link to that article?
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gRegor`
Dangit
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gRegor`
;)
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tantek__
:)
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danlyke
my experience w/homemade ORMs and data migration tells me that MySQL <-> PostgreSQL <-> SQLite is a few lines of Perl substituting boilerplate.
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tommorris
Using wget and spidering your own site is a pretty seamless bit of self-archiving. I should probably write a super-simple and portable script to do that and plonk it on a few different machines on a cron job.
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tantek__
what is ORM?
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gRegor`
I would probably just link to the video
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "ORM" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ORM
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@alexbilbie
Warning kids, using databases is an anti pattern http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twtr.io/quC2QhrXm8)
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tantek__
should we put a contextual header at the top of /database-antipattern since there are so many direct entrants to that page now?
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tommorris
tantek__: I was rather leaving it to you to do that.
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gRegor`
I think it needs something.
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tommorris
danlyke: Ha. SQLite -> anything is problematic as SQLite doesn't enforce type constraints. Therefore if you dump out the schema and the data, the schema could be an elaborate lie.
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tommorris
create table foo(bar int); insert into foo("MAGIC");
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tantek__
tommorris does MediaWiki have any magic markup constructs for "if came from outside"
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danlyke
tommorris my first blog tool started out w/generating HTML from emails. I later regretted throwing away the source data. Spidering is a secondary backup option.
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tommorris
tantek__: not really.
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tantek__
danlyke what format was the "source data"? mbox?
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tommorris
danlyke: store the source data then. that doesn't need a DB. :)
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danlyke
tommorris but if I'm looking to repurpose that data later, I can recreate the schema in PostgreSQL with everything as TEXT (or MySQL with carefully hand-crafted types because MySQL). Not really a problem.
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danlyke
tantek__ mbox would have been a decent format, or one text record per email, or whatever. Mostly I regret throwing away all the header info.
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danlyke
tommorris agreed, just think that that should be mentioned when you discuss wget/curl as a backup strategy.
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tantek__
danlyke I have a ton of old emails "saved" in mbox format. However I lack a good mbox "viewer" (short of importing them into a new email program which I have no desire to do, I just want to view/browse)
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tommorris
danlyke: Oh no, it's *a* backup strategy. One backup strategy is not enough. Storing encrypted pgdumps on S3 is my standard go-to backup strategy. curl/wget is a backup for the backup strategy.
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tantek__
what is mbox?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "mbox" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mbox
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ben_thatmustbeme
wget -r is how i have backups of my old blog
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ben_thatmustbeme
although i'm glad its not public anymore, haha
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@ramimassoud
database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp - Databases are all a pain to maintain (i.e. highly human-time... http://tumblr.ramimassoud.com/post/97892841377/database-antipattern-indiewebcamp#_=_ (twtr.io/quCadda6A8)
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danlyke
tantek The obvious tool for mbox is "less", but aside from a short dance with Opera, I don't think I've ever installed an email app that couldn't use mbox directly...
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tantek__
danlyke all the email apps that I've seen seem to "import" an mbox, duplicate it in their own *database* file (usually much bigger than the source mbox) before they let you browse it.
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danlyke
tantek__ ah, yeah, Claws (my current client of choice) wants to import it into MH.
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@alindeman
http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quD2KwJAGY)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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tantek__
All the purely emotional reactions to /database-antipattern make me think we've discovered quite a hotbed of Cargo Cult Programming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming
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danlyke
tantek__ (I keep threatening to move to a self-hosted distributed IMAP thing, but then IMAP sucks on other fronts...)
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@tommorris
@adrianshort @alexbilbie For a lot of people in the indieweb community, there's not much call for (traditional RDBMS-type) databases. (twtr.io/quDAS7k4_9)
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tantek__
danlyke indeed (re: IMAP). everything to do with email has so many trade-offs. I don't have a good solution either. mbox is a archive stopgap. :/
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gregorlove.com
created /longevity (+229) "stub" (view diff)
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danlyke
tantek__ Yeah, mbox at least doesn't throw anything away (Semantics if /^From/ aside).
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tantek__
what is future-friendly?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "future-friendly" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=future-friendly
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tantek__
what is future-proof?
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@amazonv
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quDNDfV6CG)
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "future-proof" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=future-proof
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tantek__
gregor` ^^^
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@shanley
This is a photo from another indie web conference this year: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp2014-sf.jpg (twtr.io/quD_VQEKsZ)
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tantek__
yikes: https://twitter.com/isabeldresler/status/512090971803103232
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tantek__
what is PayPal?
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@isabeldresler
Just had all my money seized & my account shut down by PayPal even though I'm not selling anything illegal or pornographic. Advice welcome. (twtr.io/qorSjUkUfY)
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "PayPal" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PayPal
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danlyke
tantek__ seems like the PayPal story gets replayed every few months with a different victim, and yet people still keep using it. Sigh.
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@shanley
The same conference, the year before: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp-2013.jpg (twtr.io/quDiZEgiYG)
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tantek__1
danlyke - we should document/cite these - as PayPal seems to be a particularly unfriendly money silo.
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tantek___
the _s will keep being added until the web IRC client lets go of previous usernames (tantek_ tantek__)
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ben_thatmustbeme
so shanley is just playing the race card now? what does that have to do with DBs?
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danlyke
tantek__ I guess the reminders of the idiocy of PayPal have always been frequent enough in my life that I couldn't see how someone would be unaware of the risks...
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme I don't interpret it that way.
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@shanley
Yeah. #indieweb. there is no evidence that this is a diverse movement. when i talk about it i get instantly attacked by 10 patriarchal jerks (twtr.io/quDrMMyAcs)
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gRegor`
That's not 'the race card'
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barnabywalters
criticism of the lack of diversity in #indiewebcamp is valid criticism
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ben_thatmustbeme
its a fair criticism that we aren't very diverse
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tantek___
ok folks, who is attacking shanley? any form of personal attacks is unacceptable.
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ben_thatmustbeme
but in the context of her arguments its completely unrelated
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@shanley
#indieweb Its conferences are full to the brim w/ white men. it talks about accepting critique but can't without crumbling. (twtr.io/quDvjobFRu)
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@sandfoxuk
The Internet of White People #indieweb (twtr.io/quDwRbvrtb)
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tantek___
one of the reasons we publish photos is to be open and transparent and show where we are (and be aware of how far we need to go)
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@shanley
#indieweb the thing about not using databases is really just too rich for words. (twtr.io/quDxFnfGRb)
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@vitaminsludge
RT @shanley: #indieweb Its conferences are full to the brim w/ white men. it talks about accepting critique but can't without crumbling. (twtr.io/quDz9WtLzj)
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gRegor`
It's moved on from just the /database-antipattern a while ago.
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petermolnareu
ben_thatmustbeme the diversity thing is a bad joke, we're not holding back anyone of joining and there is not so much to do about who is interested in this
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bear
Indieweb crowd is small enough that I have no idea who she thinks is not accepting of criticism or hating on her
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gRegor`
Within a few tweets of starting last night, actually.
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barnabywalters
petermolnareu: careful making assertions like “we're not holding back anyone”, we may be doing things we’re unaware of which put people off
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tantek___
right, being defensive about lacking diversity is never helpful.
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ben_thatmustbeme
apparently criticizing databases is one of those things :)
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@shanley
What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quE7kEXvJR)
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme I know you mean that to be funny, however they are separate matters.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i know, it is
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@so_treu
RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quECZa5n5b)
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ben_thatmustbeme
btw, if anyone wants their comments on such subject OTR we have #indiechat for that reason
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tantek___
and the lack of diversity issue is nothing to make any humor about. it is a real issue, and we should all accept shanley's criticisms of that gracefully, and work on improvements, not defenses.
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barnabywalters
(or, maybe, y’know, just keep it to yourself)
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petermolnareu
"we may be doing things we’re unaware of which put people off" I know this is a rabbithole, but I will say my opinion: I do not care. A group with an idea, with principles, where is no one forced to join or not to join; I think this is OK like this.
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tantek___
petermolnareu - in a world of perfectly equal opportunities, you're right. however we are not in that world.
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@savant
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quEJTuyMN8)
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ben_thatmustbeme
things like this honestly make me want to just take my personal photos off my site.
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@bashlog
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quEKnqFyiC)
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme - yes there are many trade-offs to public vs. private postings of all kinds.
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@bma
RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quENguvUzj)
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@divinetechygirl
RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quENrcnTD5)
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tantek___
should we make it more clear that we don't charge for admission to indiewebcamps?
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ben_thatmustbeme
personally I don't care what any of you look like, i thought thats the idea of being an internet based community. I think it just represents more to the communities this group started in
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barnabywalters
not sure I exactly understand what shanley is advocating us to do?
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tantek___
there's no $$$ collected to divert.
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barnabywalters
donate to orgs like modelviewculture or ada initiative?
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tantek___
barnabywalters, there may be a misunderstanding of conference = entrance fee.
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petermolnareu
has to leave, will be back within a few hours
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ben_thatmustbeme
barnabywalters, I don't think she is advocating anything, it has started to look more like greifing now
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tantek___
barnabywalters I think we should leave any such donations up to individuals.
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ben_thatmustbeme
just my opinion though
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bear
tantek___ - i feel she is looking at who we work for and assuming that we are all in Indieweb *for* our companies
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danlyke
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 12 karma
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme I presume you mean expression of grief? I do not consider her comments to be "griefing" in the trolling manner.
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barnabywalters
tantek__ agreed
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@wilkieii
RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quE_iospZs)
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gRegor`
bear: Yeah, I think so.
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barnabywalters
followups to the “what I want to see” tweet: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512994382237024256
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@shanley
Also, giving fucktons of tech jobs to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quE9xiy4Ww)
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gRegor`
Like "what is indieweb doing to tear down the structural problems in tech" seems to be the thrust
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barnabywalters
https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512994596050046978
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@shanley
NOT: manifestos on diversity, white-male led conferences, and fucking about like a child in the file system to build your shitty homepage. (twtr.io/quEEYgtApd)
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@blakeirvin
@postwait The "note" below http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Fragile ... Thank goodness I was introduced to Fishpong today, or I'd be in a terrible mood now. (twtr.io/quEgAP7Nf0)
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, i mean in the trolling manner. case in point ^
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tantek___
well we don't have any manifestos - not sure what that's about
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@mojinations
OK, I try to be constructive as much as I can but this rant from Indie Web Camp is profoundly stupid: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quEh8o3Pek)
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gRegor`
"manifesto" is referring to ind.ie
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tantek___
most indiewebcamps have been co-organized by men and women. we can improve there for sure.
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gRegor`
Aral engaged her last night after she was talking about /database-antipattern
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barnabywalters
tantek__: there was some IWC/ind.ie confusion — but also, many IWC wiki pages could be seen as maifestoes
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tantek___
oh dear
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@brycv
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quEmq6vPaU)
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tantek___
what is a manifesto?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "manifesto" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=manifesto
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barnabywalters
e.g. /databases-antipattern as anti-database manifesto
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tantek___
case in point :)
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tantek___
the irony is that these tweets may live longer in our IRC logs than at their permalinks.
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tantek___
barnabywalters - reasoned criticism != manifesto
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@_jeremyharris
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quEzG04sQY)
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ben_thatmustbeme
basically its more looking like shanley is trying the 'attack the speaker to discredit the argument' argument (there is a phrase for that, i swear). Which i consider to have lost discourse. there was discussion of CAP and ACID and future friendly, but shanley has lost that. a
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barnabywalters
tantek___ tbh a lot of what was on /databases-antipattern before tommorris made those copyedits was really not reasoned criticism, e.g. unrelated citations, sweeping generalisations
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme so ignore what you consider to be bad arguments, and focus on those that have more merit. e.g. the lack of diversity.
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@grmpyprogrammer
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quF5VUD2DL)
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tantek___
barnabywalters, right, we should keep improving that page
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barnabywalters
most productive way forward right now: ignore database plumbing nonsense argument, focus on actual diversity problem
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tantek___
with every retweet of emotional criticism (e.g. "Words cannot express") the page gets better.
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gRegor`
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 69 karma
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tantek___
and I disagree about "build your shitty homepage" - do whatever it takes to "build your shitty homepage" - start somewhere.
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ben_thatmustbeme
lack of diversity is another issue shanley is using as attack on the DB issue. Its a known problem we have been discussing, but honestly shanley isn't providing discourse there, just pointing a finger and saying look they aren't diverse.
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@choult
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFF4qxiFD)
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme I guess I don't see it like that. They are two separate issues to handle separately.
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neuro`
I fear it will be the case every time we disagree with her.
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tantek___
neuro` there is no "we" - we all express our own opinions
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@AD7six
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFJ3aEYAf)
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ben_thatmustbeme
i agree, they should be, and I don't mind discussion on either
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tantek___
please do not make this into any kind of us vs. them or her
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neuro`
tantek___: I use "we" as "anyone"
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neuro`
sorry if it was not clear.
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tantek___
neuro` in English it is not viewed like that
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neuro`
tantek___: just understood
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@TrevorMW
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFP9yyoxb)
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neuro`
so s/we/anyone/
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tantek___
use of "we" implies a consensus collective that is as a whole responding to others or someone - which is not the case here.
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tantek___
even use of "anyone" is not helpful.
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gRegor`
tantek___: see my pm?
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tantek___
see Wikipedia:weasel words
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neuro`
Hey, I just learn something really important here.
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@CalEvans
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFSQKrLtM)
#
@nomadphp
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFT1ypXSw)
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neuro`
will blog about it in French because that's really important
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@daycamp4devs
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFTjQCdKj)
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tantek___
gRegor` I'm on the web IRC UI hence no PM :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
that would be a cool feature to add
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tantek___
I'm just waiting for KevinMarks to wake up and reply to the tweetstorm he started ;)
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@reinergaertner
Bye-bye, Google & co. - unabhängig von Datenkraken. Mein Selbstversuch: http://rgae.de/24 #indieweb, #Synology #BaikalServer #yourls (twtr.io/quFZiBQoH4)
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@virtadpt
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quF_ZC7GLG)
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@phpdreams
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFd9KBCVs)
#
aaronpk
wow oh man what a tweetstorm
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tantek___
who would have thought so many people would be afraid of having their database assumptions questioned? ("stay away from here" = fear)
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed, its pretty crazy
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@awebneck
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFiEN1681)
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ben_thatmustbeme
I really like the idea at looking up who has personal sites from those who tweeted today
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tantek___
aaronpk - it appears that there's quite the "cargo cult" of database programmers.
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danlyke
or "stay away from here" = "dear deities, I've had to maintain code that started from this premise".
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tantek___
(all those who are tweeting/responding purely emotionally)
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bear
I reached out to postwait with a response since he comes from the ops world
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bear
but he hasn't replied yet
#
@gRegorLove
Attacks are not OK. If you are #indieweb and attacking @shanley, stop it. Reference: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512993514150326272 (twtr.io/quFqfijz9s)
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tantek___
thanks bear
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tantek___
gregornobacktick++
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Loqi
gregornobacktick has 18 karma
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danlyke
ben_thatmustbeme I first saw the opinion expressed from Rafe Coburn, propietor of RC3.org.
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gRegor`
tantek___: Ah, ok. I was just asking about phrasing for that tweet. But there it is. :)
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@HyShai
This has got to be satire. Right? (TLDR; don't use databases) http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFtYAphYY)
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barnabywalters
danlyke: personal sites are not often passed on to new maintainers IME
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@cath0de
:eyeroll: "Using databases [for] primary storage [...] is considered by some in the community to be an antipattern." http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFvhDeTMc)
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@eryzamasaki
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quFwCfDFsY)
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ben_thatmustbeme
there was a stat a little while back about the number of people who share/retweet without actually reading the article/page
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danlyke
barnabywalters true, but most of us in the long-term blogging community also work in software development.
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ben_thatmustbeme
its was fairly staggering. many people may see the comment, visit the page, read the first few lines then retweet
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barnabywalters
danlyke: however, indiewebcamp.com is predominantly about building personal sites and managing personal content
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ben_thatmustbeme
bear, what are you looking for in the ops world?
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bear
I don't follow your question
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ben_thatmustbeme
"I reached out to postwait with a response since he comes from the ops world"
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bear
@postwait is an ops person and someone I've interacted with in the past
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ben_thatmustbeme
didn't know the context
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tantek___
aaronpk - how's the indiewebcamp.com traffic today? ;)
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danlyke
barnabywalters yes, but all the homebrew webloggers I know personally use their personal sites to develop and hone skills that they hope to deploy professionally.
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aaronpk
uh good question....
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bear
ben_thatmustbeme - it's one of the RT storms from earlier
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@brandonsavage
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quG8dC2w4G)
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aaronpk
how can we reasonably clear up the difference between ind.ie and indiewebcamp?
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tantek___
what is ind.ie?
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Loqi
ind.ie is a website created by Aral Balkan for the Indie Tech Manifesto http://indiewebcamp.com/ind.ie
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aaronpk
that's pretty good
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aaronpk
wow we've had quite the uptick in traffic over the past few weeks
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tantek___
aaronpk - as long as there is a word/prefix overlap, the confusion will re-occur
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tantek___
what is manifesto
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "manifesto" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=manifesto
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, i'm not surprised, Known has really got some major news
#
aaronpk
the database-antipattern post is getting by far the most traffic today
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aaronpk
70 active users on the site right now
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ben_thatmustbeme
lets hope they read more than that page
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aaronpk
unlikely
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ben_thatmustbeme
"theres no such thing as bad publicity" ? hopefully we will see some new people learn about us out of it all
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ben_thatmustbeme
I can hope
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@DesignerDon
This is a ridiculous article: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quGX5iNbsG)
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barnabywalters
danlyke: my experience has been 1) build DB-driven personal site, partly to learn skills which could be applied professionally 2) get a full-time programming job 3) no longer have time to maintain database-driven site
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aaronpk
barnabywalters++
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Loqi
barnabywalters has 70 karma
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tantek.com
created /manifesto (+755) "start a stub to hopefully start clarifying things" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /longevity (+84) "expand and give context of principles" (view diff)
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tantek___
for everyone's review and edits/iteration...
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barnabywalters
not sure where in /database-antipattern is the best place to reference https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/mysql-utf8mb4
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tantek___
what is a manifesto?
#
Loqi
A manifesto is "a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government" according to Wikipedia[1] http://indiewebcamp.com/manifesto
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@micahcowan
RT @theerasmas: catching up on my timeline and apparently this is a real thing someone wrote http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twtr.io/quHCCu9BPj)
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tantek___
barnabywalters start a new section on "UTF8 problems" using all the text about UTF8 referenced in e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#MySQL_portability
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ben_thatmustbeme
at least people have something to cite, its not the misquote -> misunderstanding you see in other tweetstorms
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@SeKrebs
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quHH8sck1s)
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@epicpoodle
RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quHKPWsDHs)
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme and this is why we capture reasoned thoughts and opinions on the wiki
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rascul
i've got known installed now but i can't seem to find any docs about how to get the posse stuff going
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tantek___
rascul, perhaps start an FAQ section on http://indiewebcamp.com/Known with "How do setup POSSE?"
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tantek___
er, "How do I setup POSSE?"
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neuro`
I may be wrong, but I don't understand the purpose of that database antipattern page on the IndieWebcamp wiki. I mean, I don't understand how it is related to Indieweb.
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rascul
that could be a good idea
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tantek___
neuro` in one word: longevity.
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tantek___
part of the reason we are frustrated with /silos are their inevitable /site-deaths and loss of content and permalinks, thus one of the indieweb principles is building for the long web /longevity.
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tantek___
and as soon as you start thinking & designing for longevity you realize longevity of your *content* and *data* is critical, and when you design for that, you find that databases are *bad* for longevity. hence antipattern.
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tantek___
neuro` - good question regardless. worthy of adding to an FAQ on /database-pattern
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tantek___
want to try adding it?
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aaronpk
I have to say, one of the things I am very happy about this community is when people complain about an article on the wiki, many jump in and improve it
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neuro`
tantek___: I understand the point of view. I'm probably too much involved in ops and data longevity / reusability not to consider SQL in general a not so bad solution to handle data that have relation between them.
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neuro`
Thank you very much for clarifying.
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tantek___
neuro` if that answer makes sense to you, could you write it up in /database-antipattern#FAQ ?
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tantek___
e.g. "How is this related to the indieweb?"
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neuro`
tantek___: I will think about it during the week-end, need time to compute all the information about that antipattern and what it means in real life.
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neuro`
tantek___: will do for adding that to the FAQ
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ben_thatmustbeme
is trying to decide where to put his examples of having AIM chat logs going back 12 years because they are in flat files
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tantek___
neuro` for now you could just copy/paste what made sense from the above IRC - no additional "think about" needed.
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme /longevity#Examples
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@rblackfriends
RT @shanley: This is a photo from another indie web conference this year: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp2014-sf.jpg (twtr.io/quHyTsqUBj)
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@rblackfriends
RT @shanley: The same conference, the year before: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp-2013.jpg (twtr.io/quHycFdRVb)
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neuro`
BTW I have exactly the same issue with my photos: can't make my mind digital photographies are meant to last, because the image format change.
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@zenaynay
RT @shanley: #indieweb the thing about not using databases is really just too rich for words. (twtr.io/quJ6325tRL)
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@zenaynay
RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twtr.io/quJ6nPzTHM)
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danlyke
neuro` in the two+ decades I've been screwing around with digital photography, ImageMagick has only added formats.
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tantek___
what is ImageMagick?
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Loqi
ImageMagick is open source software for editing images http://indiewebcamp.com/ImageMagick
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aaronpk
ironically storing things in camera RAW format is the most fragile
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danlyke
(Well, ImageMagick didn't exist when I first started playing with digital photos via Targa capture of video camera input, but...)
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aaronpk
because each manufacturer has their own RAW format
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danlyke
aaronpk yes, which is why multi-format backup is important.
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danlyke
(ie: get that RAW to deep TIFF *and* JPEG and carry both of those forward)
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aaronpk
I'm also normally a proponent of storing/archiving things in their most original format, but that has bitten me many times in the past now.
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tantek___
aaronpk - that's reasonable as half a strategy.
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tantek___
basically, what danlyke said.
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aaronpk
Several times I would have much preferred to have a lossy/uneditable jpg or mp3 or pdf version rather than the original version which may be in some proprietary format
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tantek___
original format + an open/portable format
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@kieranajp
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quJPiqLCSf)
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aaronpk
for example I still have a folder of old cakewalk express files which are essentially unusable now, where they would have been somewhat useful as midi files
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme
huh, have people really just created all their own templates?
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t37.net
edited /database-antipattern (+567) "/* FAQ */" (view diff)
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neuro`
danlyke: what about raw file formats? And quality loss when converting from one to another? And how do I know my kids will be able to view my jpeg files in 30 years?
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kylewm
isn't there a version of TIFF files that's basically just a text listing of rgb pixels?
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ben.thatmustbe.me
created /Template:user (+180) "Created page with "<span class="h-card"><a href= "http://{{{1}}}" class="u-url">{{#if: {{{3|}}} | {{sparkline|{{{3}}}}} | }}</a> <span class="p-name p-nickname">[[User:{{{1}}}|{{{2}}}]]</span></span>"" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+346) "shorten FAQ, remove strawman-like language" (view diff)
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danlyke
neuro` that's why multiple formats, and one of them lossless (ie: TIFF) if you can justify the space. Also, you *must* have an ongoing process for reading back those files. I've lost a few jpgs over the years because of filesystem corruption.
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /longevity (+424) (view diff)
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danlyke
neuro` also, remember that preserving slides/negatives/prints is not a "throw it in a shoebox" deal either, all materials, virtual or real, degrade over time.
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neuro`
danlyke: my photos are stored in at least 3 places, so no worries about that.
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danlyke
neuro` three formats is as important as 3 places.
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neuro`
danlyke: will have to write a script for that then.
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neuro`
and multiply my storage by 3
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ben_thatmustbeme
gah, i always forget to put my change comments in
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /longevity (+9) "make examples a list" (view diff)
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rascul
i forget sometimes too
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@ffee_machine
RT @theerasmas: catching up on my timeline and apparently this is a real thing someone wrote http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twtr.io/quK8iBvrxt)
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danlyke
neuro` like "find . -name '*.crw' -print0 | xargs -0 dcraw -v" ?
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@Jack_Franklin
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quKJmgVVAQ)
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@SherazG5
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quKKP8FbfY)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+109) "How is this related to the indieweb linky linky, minor wording tweaks, expand See Also" (view diff)
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neuro`
danlyke: and also send pictures everywhere
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danlyke
neuro` an oft half-started and abandoned project is something that is kinda like rsync but with whole file versioning. git doesn't do images very well...
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danlyke
neuro` also, an image manager that understands all the different places I've spewed images over the years. Sigh.
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arcatan
the db article seems to be getting lots of attention :P
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tantek___
and it needs a proper dfn and summary at the top
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neuro`
danlyke: I was wrong, I have my photos in more than 3 places: SAN, DVDs, S3, Dropbox, own server.
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tantek___
welcome arcatan! are you a math fan?
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arcatan
not sure if fan. student, though.
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tantek___
what's your personal site?
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@rbin
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quKgJouZxL)
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@neuissa
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quKjGCvdXV)
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aaronpk
arcatan: and also lots of improvement! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13411&oldid=13272
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arcatan
tantek___: http://miikka.me has my h-card, http://quanttype.net/ has some writings. it's not very indieweb yet.
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bnvk
ahoy
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alanpearce__
Nice writings on your site arcatan :)
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@cfJquery
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quL8B5sKcd)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+330) "summary dfn at top" (view diff)
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tantek___
what is the database antipattern?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "the database antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+database+antipattern
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tantek___
hmm, loqi should drop "the" from such queries
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Loqi
dude
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tantek___
like it drops "a"
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tantek___
what is a database antipattern?
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Loqi
The database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern
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aaronpk
good call
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tantek___
oops, "e.g." cause it to trim the dfn
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aaronpk
turns out finding the end of a sentence is surprisingly hard
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+2) "drop use of e.g. since Loqi's regex seems to trim at that" (view diff)
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alanpearce
I started using double-spaced sentences for that reason
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tantek___
what is a database antipattern?
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alanpearce
They collapse rather nicely in HTML, too :)
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Loqi
The database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content (like on an indieweb site), and is an anti-pattern due to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence, and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern
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tantek___
how's that for a summary?
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tantek___
arcatan nice sites! is it deliberate that the first site with h-card does not link to your second site with writings?
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@steven_barker
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quLUt0S5s0)
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@sphinxsearch
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quLUt1inLY)
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aaronpk
I like the use of uninspectability and platform-dependence there because they are pretty objective things. maintenance costs and long-term fragility are less objective IMO.
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tantek___
I wonder if those saying/retweeting "stay away from here" and then linking to something realize the psychology that causes people to then *not* stay away?
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tantek___
aaronpk - we should have citations for all of them
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aaronpk
agreed
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neuro`
tantek___: probably not.
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bnvk
I think the indie web/tech confusion has reached boiling point, *sigh*
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tantek___
bnvk - tweets do not make a boiling point
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tantek___
wait til there's confusion in an actual press article - then it's an actual serious problem
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tantek___
until then it's just isolated incidents of ephemeral confusion
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tantek___
You're not going to boil an egg by tweeting about it.
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@aaronpk
Great example of how to handle Internet criticism: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 Thanks #indiewebcamp for being... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/19/2/indiewebcamp (twtr.io/quLnhN49Jy)
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arcatan
tantek___: a good point, i should add a link
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aaronpk
yes I did just post a link to a wiki diff
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tantek___
arcatan http://miikka.me/ is very nice and clean!
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tantek___
also you already have some good indieweb support! http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmiikka.me%2F
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tantek___
I believe you can setup your GPG key also for sign-in somehow
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bnvk
tantek___: it was just a metaphor, not meant to be taken literally
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tantek___
what is GPG?
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Loqi
OpenPGP (Pretty Good Privacy) is a message exchange format that uses public key cryptography to enable people to exchange encrypted and/or signed data http://indiewebcamp.com/GPG
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tantek___
bnvk - I know, and I was criticizing the use of the metaphor as an exaggeration.
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tantek___
hey aaronpk, can you add a link from http://indiewebcamp.com/GPG to wherever it is that it is documented how to setup your GPG to use with IndieAuth?
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@juan_cg
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quMPCsYmw1)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@simeydotme
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quMf99WQdQ)
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tantek___
bear, was it @postwait that you were having a side-discussion with?
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bear
I was trying to engage him but radio silence so far
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@ericlbarnes
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quMsgve71M)
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bear
@paddyforan also tried to engage him about it
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danlyke
@postwait is getting the retweets, but others have mentioned it independently, so I suspect there's a common blog post somewhere...
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@danlyke
@rafeco I'm in the #indiewebcamp IRC, and much discussion ensues. Was there a blog post, or @postwait's tweet, that you found that from? (twtr.io/quN2wDPbjp)
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arcatan
i want to implement notes for my site, but one problem is that i'm using Hakyll as a site generator and it's actually pretty hard to use even though I'm okay at Haskell.
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arcatan
i'm now trying to figure out whether to try to beat Hakyll or to ditch it
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alanpearce
arcatan: static generators need some extra bits to work as great indieweb systems :(
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alanpearce
Have you used Haskell for webdev before? I've been curious about building my own system with it :)
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tantek___
what is Haskell?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Haskell" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Haskell
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tantek___
what is Hakyll?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Hakyll" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hakyll
#
arcatan
alanpearce: i haven't used it for webdev really, apart from some really small experiments
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alanpearce
Ah, fair enough. Small experiments aren't great to make conclusions from :)
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arcatan
yeah
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@schneitj
@gRegorLove I'm curious, what is the indieweb anti-database argument? (twtr.io/quNfHBw52w)
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arcatan
i love static generators for how easy it's to host the static sites, but i guess indieweb is a bit more dynamic than that
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alanpearce
Yeah, it can be done with helpers like bridgy, but it doesn't feel right for me
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arcatan
yeah
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tantek___
arcatan you can do plenty with the indieweb with static site generators
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tantek___
what is a static site generator?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "static site generator" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator
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danlyke
arcatan, I'm a fan of building the aggregation stuff into off-line or reader based tools. Helps cut down on spam and DDOS potential.
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@nathanbowser
Is http://indiewebcamp.com the new daily wtf? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quNqm4VS6w)
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmmm, micropub doesn't have any sort of option for Yes/No when posting RSVP
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tantek___
really? wow. hey bret since you're living the static indieweb site generator life, could you start http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator ?
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ben_thatmustbeme
would mean editing in my micropub client as html, instead of just a textfield
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme pretty sure micropub lets you add any additional properties you need, e.g. rsvp=yes
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tantek___
or maybe it's p-rsvp=yes - aaronpk would know better
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tantek___
would a condescending wonka meme at the top of /database-antipattern be helpful?
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@jcox92
RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twtr.io/quPBEmAhR4)
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ben_thatmustbeme
wonka meme?
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danlyke
ben_thatmustbeme: http://www.quickmeme.com/Condescending-Wonka/
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek___ couldn't find anything about it, but I'm thinking i'm going to have to start doing that as I am going to need additional features soon. I just want others to still be able to use it
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ben_thatmustbeme
ohhh yeah
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@pajruiter
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quPJwtEn6f)
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme pretty sure micropub lets you add anything you want to your h-entry (or other object type) that you're posting
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tantek___
it's just a conduit for posting microformats objects to (presumably new) permalink URLs on your site
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tantek___
you can post an h-card for a venue for example and then reference it in an h-entry checkin or an h-event p-location
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tantek___
"Tell me again how much you like spending time maintaining and backing up your personal databases in addition to backing up your file system which you already do."
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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alanpearce
'filesplaining'?
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tantek___
what is filesplaining?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "filesplaining" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=filesplaining
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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alanpearce
:)
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ben_thatmustbeme
still maintaining about a 75-80% of people in this tweetstorm have their own site
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tantek___
that's a good sign at least
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aaronpk
so definitely getting bridgy errors with my new expiring webmention endpoint
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alanpearce
ben_thatmustbeme: Did you look at the hosting platforms for those sites?
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek___
aaronpk does bridgy have a special UA that you can then give it its own long-term webmention endpoint?
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aaronpk
yeah probably should do some hack like that
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, just looking if they have urls in their profiles
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ben_thatmustbeme
ti do a quick check test to elimnate people just posting facebook or github links though
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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aaronpk
it's kind of subtle. just includes "appid: s~brid-gy" in the user agent along with a bunch of google appengine stuff
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme better yet - test such URLs for rel=me setup http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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aaronpk
b 21
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tommorris
ZOMG MY TRUCK IS AWESOME WHY DO YOU GUYS USE A BIKE IT DOESN'T HAVE POWER STEERING
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tommorris
^ basically most of the database argument
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aaronparecki.com
edited /pgp (+325) "/* Authentication */ add brief explanation of using pgp with indieauth" (view diff)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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aaronpk
tommorris++
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Loqi
tommorris has 49 karma
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tantek___
tommorris++ excellent analogy
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Loqi
tommorris has 50 karma
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tommorris
(The reverse applies. Sometimes there are valid use cases for trucks too.)
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tantek___
wait does that make flat files the fixie of the indieweb?
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alanpearce
We are so hipster.
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bear
I would recommend moving the first FAQ entry to the top of that wiki page - most folks are not going to get that far into it
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tantek___
bear, nah, I'd rather focus on the actual crux of the antipattern rather than open defensively
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tantek___
if the best people have is mockery, especially in tweets on a silos, then it's not a big deal
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rascul
15 edits on /database-antipattern today heh
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tantek___
s/a silos/silos
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Loqi
tantek___ meant to say: if the best people have is mockery, especially in tweets on silos, then it's not a big deal
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bear
I'm just tired of dealing with people this week
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@Crell
This reads like one of those hipster parodies. Please do not attend this conf on the risk that they're serious: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quRPx3ZBAx)
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tantek___
bear, that's ok, stick to concepts and code then :)
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aaronpk
my train internet is quickly failing
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rascul
http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ lists sql databases as a harmful thing :)
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tantek___
lol ^^^ hipster reference predicted
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alanpearce
We used the hipster reference before it was cool.
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tantek___
guy with Garfield in a fedora as his icon/avatar is talking about "risk that they're serious"
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tantek___
congratulations, we've reached step 2: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi##then%20they%20laugh%20at%20you
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alanpearce
:D
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bear
tantek___ - with the exception of replying to @sogrady I am going to be avoiding people today I think
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tantek___
perhaps those of us that use flatfiles need little badges/images: "100% database free" e.g. like https://www.google.com/search?q=100%25+gmo+free&tbm=isch
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alanpearce
I find those kind of things kind of pretentious.
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bear
I ended up removing all of those badge thingies as it felt to cargo-cult to me - even when I firmly knew that it wasn't
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kylewm
or "built with notepad" https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38780898/notepad.jpg
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tantek___
true on both points, I find the badges to be OOTP enough to hopefully come across as somewhat tongue-in-cheek
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neuro`
kylewm: made with vim?
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tantek___
"using BBEdit" :)
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alanpearce
"made with an editor I crafted myself using a microphone and shell redirection"
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tantek___
since there's so much passion around it, perhaps it's time for a NoDB project. E.g. MySQL->NoSQL->NoDB
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neuro`
Considering I've made my own blogware, I can display that even though it's relying on a database
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha, showed my friend /database-antipattern "lol, well, it turns the tables on the DB religious warriors. MySQL-zealots hate PostGres-zealots who also hate SQL Server zealots, and then you got Oracle... as soon as someone comes along and says, "Should we use databases at all?" they all have found a common enemy."
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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neuro`
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 13 karma
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme++ poke all the zealots!
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 14 karma
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bear
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
dude
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tantek___
:D
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bear
hush loqi
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Loqi
who, me?
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bear
ben_thatmustbeme++
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ben_thatmustbeme
haha
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ben_thatmustbeme
loqi got overstimulated
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bear
yea
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tantek___
the car analogy applies again. it's like the Ford vs. Chevy (MySQL vs Postgres) arguments, and then show up with a bicycle.
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ben_thatmustbeme
who brings a flat file to a database fight?
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neuro`
This debate in interesting / funny for us tech people. But from an end user experience point of view, having to pick up a database / setup flat file storage to start publishing on the Web is a huge problem
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tantek___
who brings reason to a twitter fight?
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neuro`
tantek___: even more on Friday night
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ben_thatmustbeme
HAH! tantek++
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 78 karma
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alanpearce
I guess they store reason in a flat file rather than a database, so they don't know how to look for it
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bear
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 15 karma
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neuro`
http://xkcd.com/386/ I think this applies pretty much
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tantek___
step 1: pick a cargo cult aspect of web dev. step 2: write up a wiki page debunking it. step 3: wait for someone to discover it on Twitter, reach emotionally, and spread awareness of it.
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tantek___
s/reach/react
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Loqi
tantek___ meant to say: step 1: pick a cargo cult aspect of web dev. step 2: write up a wiki page debunking it. step 3: wait for someone to discover it on Twitter, react emotionally, and spread awareness of it.
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alanpearce
Hmm.
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alanpearce
What is ruby-on-rails-antipattern
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "ruby-on-rails-antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ruby-on-rails-antipattern
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tantek___
lol!
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tantek___
what is ruby?
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Loqi
Ruby is a programming language and web server runtime environment used for some IndieWeb projects http://indiewebcamp.com/Ruby
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tantek___
what is rails?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "rails" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rails
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kylewm.com
edited /Red_Wind (-386) "/* Features */ remove references to flat files" (view diff)
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tantek___
postpones
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tantek___
darn
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kylewm.com
edited /Red_Wind () "(-1769) /* Filestore */" (view diff)
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tantek___
so /me is not quite web IRC client supported
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alanpearce
was fine here
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, i noticed that
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kylewm
it only grabs the first word
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ben_thatmustbeme
it only does the first word
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alanpearce
Oh.
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ben_thatmustbeme
jinx
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tantek___
what I said was
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@mjkirk
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quTNAEJN4o)
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ben_thatmustbeme
it also doesn't display well in the logs
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kylewm
Loqi cool it with the retweets
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ben_thatmustbeme
uses /me now
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tantek___
postpones writing up /object-oriented-programming-antipattern ;)
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bear
ha!
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bear
what is programming-antipattern?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "programming-antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=programming-antipattern
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ben_thatmustbeme
programming-language-antipattern we should be writing in assembly clearly
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alanpearce
We should all be using lisp machines.
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Loqi
yea
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ben_thatmustbeme
what happens when the compiler doesn't work for that older code anymore
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alanpearce
It must be fine because it is plain text?
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tantek___
tommorris is there a Mediawiki conditional for "not logged in" ?
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme I have that problem with my HyperTalk code.
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bear
there must be since the please login box only appears when i'm not
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@cwage
wut http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quThfgW3sY)
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tommorris
tantek___: not sure.
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alanpearce
Oh look, cat-v already has a page on OOP http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/
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tantek.com
edited /principles (+21) "Longevity" (view diff)
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tantek.com
created /Longevity (+23) "r" (view diff)
#
Jeena
I have been googling for hours but can't find out if it is possible to use a custom port for Wake On LAN instead of the default one which is 9. Does someone here know that perhaps?
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Jeena
(on linux that is)
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tantek.com
edited /longevity (+381) "add Jeremy Keith The Long Web talk / blog post" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+194) "some general indieweb header info in the hopes of broadening understanding and context" (view diff)
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bear
\o/ engagement for the win - the todogroup.org folks removed the /# urls from their site
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tantek.com
edited /database-antipattern (+34) "home page too - has a good overview" (view diff)
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tantek___
alright fine alanpearce - I blame you
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alanpearce
What did I do? :(
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tantek.com
created /object-oriented-programming-antipattern (+531) "stub with dfn and reference to existing article with even more detail and depth." (view diff)
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tantek___
This ^^^
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tantek___
alanpearce
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alanpearce
:D
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tantek___
gives
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tantek___
darn it
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alanpearce
After working on Symfony2 projects for the past few months, I would agree with it.
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tantek___
gives Loqi a jug of fuel to place next to the current tweet fire.
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Loqi
runs away from the jug of fuel to place next to the current tweet fire.
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alanpearce
Loqi knows not to stay near fuel and fire :D
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tantek___
wow that was one of Loqi's smartest moves I've seen.
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alanpearce
Loqi++
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Loqi
Loqi has 296 karma
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tantek.com
edited /antipatterns (+84) "add object oriented programming" (view diff)
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tantek___
there we go - two clicks from the /database-antipattern article, so it should take a while for the tweet fire to discover it (if at all)
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@joe_jag
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quVEF_rdso)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@aral
.@shanley It’s not about you, it’s about some of the points you raised. One of the main ones: indie *tech* is not indieweb (& vice versa) (twtr.io/quVFG8cw7V)
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Loqi
[mention] http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/09/19/6/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@gRegorLove
@schneitj There are pro- and anti- opinions in the community. It’s not a monoculture. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern got a lot of snark today. (twtr.io/quVMXXwryw)
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@gRegorLove
@schneitj On the plus side, it has led to a lot of improvements to that wiki page today. #indieweb (twtr.io/quVUDrr2y8)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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alanpearce
wow. I wonder if I should filter messages with @shanley in them as well as muting+blocking her on twitter...
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tantek___
re: ind.ie tech vs. indie web: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/quotes?item=qt0471952
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tantek___
(as in, I expect that's what anyone outside hears when anyone tries to distinguish them)
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/513036912135643136/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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tantek___
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
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ben_thatmustbeme
hahaha
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@LamontGranquist
oh FFS, shitty filesystem-based databases with XML, did i wake up in 2001 this morning? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quW52Z59yQ)
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bret
ack, KevinMarks no more inviting comment from known trolls please ;p
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danlyke
the obvious answer to the database discussion: TextQL.
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tantek___
hey bret see above about static site generators (since you've gotten it to work quite well) http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator
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bret
tantek___: most of my work went into http://indiewebcamp.com/Jekyll but I can expand static site generation
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bret
i dont think there are any obvious answers to dbs
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tantek___
I mean just create a stub about it
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tantek___
linking to Jekyll
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bret
tantek___: good idea i have a crapton of good ssg links
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tantek___
and apparently there's Hakyll too now? (in Haskell)
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bear
hmm, him doing that will cause me to also add more content to my static site stuff
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tantek___
both of which could use their own stub pages
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@sdawncasey
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quWX4LAoEw)
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bret
tantek___: there are literally a bajillion ssg's because they are generally easy projects to write... most are not so good though
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tantek___
bret - good to document that there's a spectrum of quality
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alanpearce
There's even two comparison sites: http://www.staticgen.com/ and http://staticsitegenerators.net/
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bear
wow
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bear
alanpearce++
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Loqi
alanpearce has 2 karma
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bear
I had no idea about those two sites
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alanpearce
Maybe we need a static site generator comparison site comparison site
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tantek___
what is a static site generator?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "static site generator" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator
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alanpearce
Although I definitely prefer the latter one
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tantek___
/me walks away for a few minutes
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tantek.com
created /me (+17) "r due to IRC logs auto-link reference" (view diff)
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kylewm
bret: re "most are not so good though", are any of them good?
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kylewm
I kinda hated all of the ones I tried
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alanpearce
I've been using Hugo for a while, but I want to move away from it
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kylewm
ah yeah I thought hugo was interesting, it seemed very general
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bret
kylewm: you its a lesson in working with a narrow slice of design decisions, often made by other people ;)
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bret
kylewm: jekyll is what I use. its getting better faster than my needs are growing
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alanpearce
And those design decisions can change, breaking all your RSS feed URLs https://github.com/spf13/hugo/issues/467 :(
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kylewm
I've heard good things about Middleman also, apparently it is good for prototyping Rails apps
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bret
but people who import 5000 wordpress posts have to wait 5 mins every regeneration
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bear
yea, I used Pelican and even PyBlosxom but then started to chaff against the design decisions
#
bear
and the extra work to integrate indieweb parts
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kylewm
Pelican was the one that I was like "people actually like this??" :P
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KevinMarks__
My Procrustes talk is a kind of database, object oriented, map reduce, storytelling considered harmful
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bear
kylewm yep - I started with it because I had done some support/maintenance work using it for another project
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bear
so it was top-of-mind when I decided to go static
#
@lo_fye
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quX_5PWgqx)
#
tantek___
what is Hugo?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Hugo" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hugo
#
tantek___
what is Middleman?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Middleman" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Middleman
#
tantek___
what is Pelican?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Pelican" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Pelican
#
tantek___
what is PyBlosxom?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "PyBlosxom" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PyBlosxom
#
tantek___
what is Procrustes?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Procrustes" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Procrustes
#
tantek___
oh hey good morning KevinMarks! Thanks for all the social media attention! ;)
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KevinMarks__
I like this: https://twitter.com/sketchseven/status/513036455774793729
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@sketchseven
@Glinner to paraphrase @bengoldacre: "you can’t reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into." (twtr.io/quVBjdv9N9)
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tantek___
KevinMarks, hence Socratic method. You don't reason them out of a position, you simply ask questions about it until they talk themselves out of it.
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tantek___
I'll give Aral this, he's responding with reason, without yelling, without insulting anyone: https://twitter.com/aral/status/513036620233474049
#
@aral
.@shanley It’s not about you, it’s about some of the points you raised. One of the main ones: indie *tech* is not indieweb (& vice versa) (twtr.io/quVFG8cw7V)
#
@tommorris
@rdlowrey @DesignerDon why do you need to multiplex IO for a personal blog - the context of indieweb (twtr.io/quYYDPi5xL)
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tantek___
tommorris you may need to multiplex IO if you're e.g. editing posts on multiple devices simultaneously
#
tommorris
Databases don't magically solve that problem
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@recifs
database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp http://seenthis.net/index.php?action=seenli&me=6bmg (twtr.io/quYmsMwc2w)
#
tantek___
tommorris, to be fair, if two DB clients asynchronously "insert a row into a table", the DB handles both inserts atomically. whereas if two file clients write to a file, their writes may conflict and one may overwrite the other.
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alanpearce
tantek___: not true of all databases :)
#
tantek___
alanpearce really? yikes. maybe that's assuming an RDBMS?
#
alanpearce
Maybe.
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bear
most rdbms' force that to be handled by the client, or worse, last-write-wins
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KevinMarks__
#notalldatabases
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tantek___
KevinMarks I resisted typing that.
#
tantek___
please don't reply to shanley with that
#
KevinMarks__
That is kinda how I started it
#
danlyke
alanpearce and tantek___ I think this is where we go to Philip Greenspun's "MySQL is not a database" talk.
#
@adrienneleigh
RT @shanley: the hypocrisy and lack of introspection is so deep in indieweb. DEEP. they want back pats and medals for poorly written manife… (twtr.io/quZX1cKaFC)
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bret
can we quote shanly's tweet at the top of the database-antipattern page? or is that too much of a backtroll
#
alanpearce
danlyke: I haven't seen that, but I like the sound of it
#
tantek___
kevinmarks It's not helpful to reference/conflate with a much more problematic issue
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danlyke
bear, I don't know an rdbms that doesn't have a sequence type which allows the database to manage simultaneous inserts from multiple clients.
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tantek___
bret - worse - it may come off as a personal attack
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tantek___
danlyke - right. that.
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danlyke
alanpearce MySQL is a lot closer to a database nowadays than it was in the late '90s (before referential integrity and transactions).
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bear
danlyke - true, my reply was without a lot of context and even not in the same context as the query - so i'm going to stop as to not make the conversation murkier
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bear
sequencing is something you have to handle with the structure of the table your inserting into
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alanpearce
danlyke: I've been burned by it enough times in the past few years to know that it's still pretty bad
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bear
i'm just trying to say that it's not an assumption you can make across the board for rdbms'
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tantek___
has anyone here ever asked for back pats and medals? asking for a friend.
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danlyke
alanpearce yeah, it still pushes a hell of a lot of stuff into the application developer's domain.
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@_CaseyJones_
o.O ... *spits drink* HAhaha Problem: Databases are an antipattern. Solution: Write your own flat-file database. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quZmu4MkJw)
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danlyke
tantek___ no medals, but I do sometimes ask friends for backpats. Usually they're proactive, though.
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alanpearce
Silent truncation was one of my favourites. "Getting that annoying exception about no rows updated *again*"
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bear
tantek___ that I feel is part of the ind.ie / indieweb confusion
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tantek___
on a more productive front, what do people think of the little context/intro I put at the top of http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern ? enough? not enough? needs anything more?
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neuro`
tantek___: shouldn't it be can be considered an anti-pattern?
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alanpearce
Looks pretty good. Would be nice to include the more general IWC/personal site text elsewhere
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bret
tantek___: it helps I think. still most people coming to the page from a twitter argument are going to take a shallow reading of the page biased by whatever mob sent them there
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tantek___
neuro` no. "is" is correct since the context of *long-term* is explicitly made.
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rascul
tantek___ which part are you referring to of /database-antipattern? the dfn part?
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tantek___
bret - yeah there's no helping the drive-by emo-readers. except maybe putting a cute picture of kittens at the top.
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tantek___
rascul the part before the "databases for storage" heading
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bret
tantek++ to that idea
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Loqi
tantek has 79 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme
we could... might help
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rascul
tantek___ i think it reads weird; "The database antipattern is the use of a database"
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tantek___
rascul, agreed. I tried rewording that a bunch to improve it and that was the best I could do for now.
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rascul
hrm should "databases for storage" be capitalized in some manner?
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rascul
the heading i mean
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tantek___
welcome snarfed!
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danlyke
It occurs to me on phrasing that: Just as the map is not the terrain, the database is not the data. It's an organization of the data.
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neuro`
tantek___: oh OK then. You've been showing how poor my English is twice tonight.
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tantek___
neuro` English is hard. Let's go coding. :)
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bret.io
created /static_site_generator (+223) "Stubbed static site generators" (view diff)
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bret
How do i do the what is tagging on a new page?
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neuro`
tantek___: I'm perfectly OK with learning it the hard way, even being lectured in front of the whole channel :)
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rascul
Database-antipattern refers to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files.
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rascul
tantek___ how about something more like that?
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tantek___
bret put <dfn>...</dfn> markup around the term in the summary definition at the top
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rascul
then put the other stuff in the next sentence?
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danlyke
neuro` I've been learning it since birth, four and a half decades ago, and I'm still picking up on nuance...
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tantek___
rascul - not quite because those are *disadvantages* - not the antipattern itself
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rascul
hrm
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rascul
it bothers me because it reads weird
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tantek___
to actually define an *antipattern*, you have to provide the example use which is bad and for what reasons
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bret
that antipattern is how they are used or the frequency of their use in inapparopriate situations? like in blogs for non-technical people?
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tantek___
rascul - yeah, the wording/phrasing can be improved. thanks for working on suggestions.
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neuro`
I'll agree with tantek___ on that one, even though I prefer rascul phrasing.
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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rascul
i don't know that i can come up with much better on my own!
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rascul
words is hard
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bret
grrr shanly saw this page isnt representing itself very well and really took advatage of that that. talk about harassment
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tantek___
bret - come on now, don't exaggerate. mocking a web page does not compare to harrassment of a person.
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek___
hey snarfed, would you be amenable to altering the markup in bridgy permalinks?
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tantek___
e.g. in the above mention
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tantek___
from this: <a class="u-url" href="https://twitter.com/jgarber/status/513019012360699904"></a> <time class="dt-published" datetime="2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00">2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00</time>
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@jgarber
@aaronpk Good to see the constructive feedback on and evolution of the topic! 👍 (twtr.io/quNxsGURXj)
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tantek___
to this: <a class="u-url" href="https://twitter.com/jgarber/status/513019012360699904"><time class="dt-published" datetime="2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00">2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00</time></a>
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@jgarber
@aaronpk Good to see the constructive feedback on and evolution of the topic! 👍 (twtr.io/quNxsGURXj)
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bret
tantek___: what is a good page/layout to model [[static site generator]] after?
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tantek___
that would have the effect of linking the datetime of the interaction to the permalink of the interaction which is both a common practice (linking dates to permalinks), and makes it so that the bridgy page is more human-useful
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tantek___
bret - simple summary definition at the top, and then flat set of headings that cluster similar things by topic
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@ggatin
syndication-models - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/syndication-models (twtr.io/qubahMQKyz)
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@el_boby
reading about indieweb… feature projects be like "While the core of p3k is not open source, many components are."… closing the tab (twtr.io/qubupPcGeU)
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tantek___
ouch
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ben_thatmustbeme
ditto
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ben_thatmustbeme
should invite @shanley to the next IWC
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alanpearce
bites tongue
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ben_thatmustbeme
:)
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tantek___
ben_thatmustbeme - indeed. and heck, invite all friends of yours who have or want their own indieweb site - starting with friends who look the least like you (as strange as that sounds)
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@dissolve333
@el_boby While some in #indiewebcamp don't open source their projects, doesn't mean you should dismiss the group… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/3/_) (twtr.io/qucd45QjSf)
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tantek___
nice reply ben_thatmustbe - now hook up your POSSE tweet copy to the original tweet using in_reply_to_status_id per http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
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finalcut
I'm pretty sure @shanley made it clear she doesn't want to go to an IWC https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512993316346933249
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@shanley
i would NEVER even consider going to a conference like that TBH b/c when i look at that photo i'm like, ahhh, a place where i'm not safe. (twtr.io/quDn6zMifp)
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@benwerd
@chachasikes On the #indieweb you fully control your representation online & it's much harder for others to censor -- (twtr.io/qucnfa92WQ)
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tantek___
finalcut - doesn't hurt to ask.
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@benwerd
@chachasikes -- I'd *love* to help this community with @withknown. Will do what we can to help marginalized communities. #indieweb (twtr.io/qucsyARqdw)
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tantek___
sometimes just the act of a personal invitation - like 1:1 - not necessarily broadcast on social media, can make a big difference
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finalcut
doesn't hurt; but I just pointing out it is a serious uphill battle to get her there
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tantek___
finalcut - s/battle/journey
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ben_thatmustbeme
doesn't matter, its the request that would be important I think
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tantek___
agreed - keep asking, politely
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finalcut
perhaps. I would think she would find it more important to see a more diverse crowd there and a concrete plan/effort to get a more diverse crowd there than she would an invitation.
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tantek___
finalcut - we can do both
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finalcut
I agree; but her stated position seems to imply the order of execution is kind of important
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petermolnar
please don't get me wrong, but forcing diversity will not result any good; we need people interested in this topic, not a diverse "enough" crowd
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tantek___
finalcut - despite stated position, merely being friendly, polite, considerate with direct invitations will help show good faith
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finalcut
I'm not suggesting forced diversity - i'm suggesting that it is important to figure out a way to sell the idea of the indie-web to people unlike ourselves
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ben_thatmustbeme
she certainly seems interested int he topic
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tantek___
petermolnar, the assumption should be that there *is* a diverse "enough" crowd (as you say) that *is* interested in this topic. It's just the challenge of finding and inviting, welcoming etc. them
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finalcut
and what tantek just said
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tantek___
assume there is diverse interest. now go find it.
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tantek___
oh and avoid tweeting inciteful hashtags late at night. ahem, Kevinmarks :P
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek___ saw you were going to be at IWCCambridge
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kylewm
tantek__ Kevin tweeted #killalldatabases
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tantek___
yes I will be there!
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ben_thatmustbeme
finally get to meet in person
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kylewm
I don't think it was inciteful
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petermolnar
there is a certain issue with diversity though, called language: many of the diverse enough crowd might not speak/read English at all
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tantek___
kylewm - yes, that's inciteful
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alanpearce
I keep thinking that you guys are talking about Cambridge :(
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tantek___
kylewm anything with "kill*" in the name/tag is provocative if not inciteful
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kylewm
tantek__: ok acknowledged... just didn't want you thinking it was #NotAll___ related
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ben_thatmustbeme
Cambridge Mass, USA
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alanpearce
Yeah, I know, then I forget again :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
sorry alanpearce
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tantek___
kylewm - right, #Notall* would have been far worse :(
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petermolnar
alanpearce I'm in the UK one, are you too?
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey i'm just stoked there is something i don't have to go to NYC for... cause I don't want to go to NYC
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alanpearce
petermolnar: no, but it's closer to me than Brighton
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petermolnar
right :)
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tantek___
petermolnar, alanpearce: tommorris is working on organizing Homebrew Website Club London meetups - please get in touch and help out!
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petermolnar
ok
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KevinMarks__
Also hadleybeeman
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hadleybeeman
Hi. you rang?
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: Homebrew Website Club London.
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tantek___
hadleybeeman - you back in London?
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KevinMarks__
Homebrew Website Club London?
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tommorris
I might be able to coax WMUK to provide some space.
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bret.io
edited /static_site_generator (+738) "Basic stub for SSGs. Everyone have at it!" (view diff)
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alanpearce
London. :( Somewhat better though :)
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KevinMarks__
is not in London, despite plans
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hadleybeeman
I am, Tantek — turns out i landed a few hours before you had dinner with tommorris :)
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petermolnar
is close enough to London to be able to help
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tantek___
haldeybeeman - oh dear - we thought you were still out of the country. drat.
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tantek___
KevinMarks - you in SF today? shall we organize an informal last minute IndieWeb meetup?
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tantek___
we sould discuss some of these things in-person
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hadleybeeman
I did, however, have a dinner scheduled. sadly. but we can catch up again at TPAC!
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rascul
bret i'll expand on static site generators in due time
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tantek___
s/sould/should
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Loqi
tantek___ meant to say: we should discuss some of these things in-person
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rascul
quite possibly tonight
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@veganstraightedge
My website is made by me. It's part of the #indieweb. I use a database (pg) as my primary data store. It's my site. Yours can do whatever. (twtr.io/que5e7g3df)
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tantek___
what is pg?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pg" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pg
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tantek___
!tell shaners what is pg? It looks like we don't have a page for "pg" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pg
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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rascul
pg would be postgresql?
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petermolnar
postgresql I guess
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@veganstraightedge
We don't have to agree about datastore, programming language, host or much of anything. We all make HTML pages served over HTTP. #indieweb (twtr.io/queExRUmnU)
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tantek___
he's on a roll
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alanpearce
I prefer serving mine over SPDY /pedantry
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tantek___
what is pedantry?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "pedantry" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pedantry
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tommorris
hadleybeeman, tantek___, petermolnar, alanpearce: I'll probably set up a page on IWC wiki where we can collect together a list of people who would be keen on regularly (or irregularly) attending HWC-London. once that reaches a point where it would be worth finding a venue, we can then try rebooting it again
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alanpearce
Nice :)
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tantek___
tommorris we have such a page - /Homebrew+Website+Club
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tommorris
sign up there then. :)
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alanpearce
As long as it's got enough notice that I can buy advance train tickets..
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hadleybeeman
tommorris: I'd forgotten how much time I don't have (see latest FB post) — will help if I can but definitely don't want to be a bottleneck.
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tantek___
tommorris see http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew+Website+Club#Established_Meetings
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek, not going for 4 '
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ben_thatmustbeme
4 '_'s
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tantek___
and add London and yourself here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew+Website+Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings
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tommorris
hadleybeeman: I don't have much time, although that tends to be self-imposed by my enjoying myself.
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tantek___
hadleybeeman - Homebrew Website Club is an hour every other week.
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hadleybeeman
Fair enough, tommorris. I do applaud that :)
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tommorris
would discuss further but realises he is on a logged channel.
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tantek___
aaronpk, I wonder how hard it would be for Loqi to keep a count of how many times a page has been asked for before and report that
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ben_thatmustbeme
that should be pretty simple its just a DB increment on each request. Then we could get a list of top most requested pages
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tantek___
<<< You're the second person to ask that. It looks like we still don't have a page for "pedantry". ... >>>
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@adrienneleigh
RT @shanley: Yeah. #indieweb. there is no evidence that this is a diverse movement. when i talk about it i get instantly attacked by 10 pat… (twtr.io/quenL9cCp4)
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tantek___
does anyone have the citations for the attacks that are referenced there ^^^
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tantek___
?
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finalcut
i didn't see any but one guy she calls out later did get nasty with her
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Mark87
who is this shanley person
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ben_thatmustbeme
tantek___ i'm pretty sure the attacks on her were from the ind.ie crowd
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ben_thatmustbeme
i know there were several calling her names that were in aral's feed
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@thethrum
RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twtr.io/quey7qyvnD)
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finalcut
https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512998365873700864
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@shanley
WELL that was deleted fast. don't worry @barry_richards , @unisouthwales, i took screen shots https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512998365873700864/photo/1 (twtr.io/quFaLiLU14)
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finalcut
that was the only one I saw; wouldn't surprise me if there were others
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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tantek___
finalcut - ugh that sucks. :(
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Loqi
[mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek___
danlyke++ for https://twitter.com/danlyke/status/513062047081185280
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@danlyke
@shanley a shame. Many of us interested in open web interop would love more perspectives. Next meetup in SF Weds 9/24. (twtr.io/qudLFGkVEf)
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finalcut
tantek - yes; it was pretty inexcusable
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tantek___
well if there was any question as to why we have a /code-of-conduct - there it is
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@veganstraightedge
There is a massive amount of prior art for "indie". And not just the #indieweb's use of it. (twtr.io/qufRy8JT3U)
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tantek___
and http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-why
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petermolnar
tantek___ I would not send that page to @shanley, the reaction would be the same it was for Aral's manifesto, that as white male's we are not allowed to write about diversity...
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tantek___
petermolnar - I wouldn't presume that.
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tantek___
experience has shown largely positive response to *having* a code of conduct, especially for conferences
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ben_thatmustbeme
danlyke++ for the tweet
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petermolnar
I would hope not, but I've spent an hour reading that twitter war through
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Loqi
danlyke has 2 karma
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tantek___
a code of conduct is about respect, not doing harm, and consequences if harm is done
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tantek___
a manifesto is more about raging against something
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tantek___
they're VERY different
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finalcut
the tone on the code of conduct page is really good.
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tantek___
thank you finalcut. it took a lot of work.
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petermolnar
that is very true, and I probably lack the depth of the English language to feel these immediately, sorry about that
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petermolnar
and indeed the page is good
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finalcut
you're welcome and I can tell it was not hastily written.
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@kevinmarks
@shanley indiewebcamp has had a code of conduct from the beginning http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-why but it could certainly be more diverse (twtr.io/qufogKpVfH)
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tantek___
I invite you to sign it if you agree with it and want to make it clear you are available to help uphold it: http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct#Signed
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tantek___
(that invitation goes for everyone here)
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KartikPrabhu
is afraid to catch up on logs
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tantek___
kevinmarks that's not quite accurate.
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KevinMarks__
Apologies. I missed the first one
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finalcut
I don't understand this instruction: "(sign with ~~~~)" what are the four tilde's representing?
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rascul
wiki signature?
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tantek___
KevinMarks - no the "from the beginning". IndieWebCamp started in 2011.
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KevinMarks__
That's a macro the wiki will expand to your name and date
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tantek___
I wrote first draft of the code of conduct in 2013: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=code-of-conduct&action=history
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tantek___
let's not overstate our case
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kylewm
I dont' think she has any desire to engage on this
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tantek___
kylewm - I'm not willing to presume less than good will, despite any tweet language.
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kevinmarks.com
edited /code-of-conduct (+73) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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kylewm
tantek__: I'm not presuming ill will; I just think people should stop @-ing her
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petermolnar.eu
edited /code-of-conduct (+72) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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tantek___
welcome brianloveswords!
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brianloveswords
Hi tantek___ !
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rawlinson.us
edited /code-of-conduct (+70) "/* Code of Conduct */ signed by finalcut, Bill Rawlinson" (view diff)
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tantek___
kylewm - I'm ok with people continuing to write polite respectful replies.
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KevinMarks__
Tonight isn't going to work for me; I may not make next Wednesday either.
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tantek___
polite respect in the face of anything less than that will help demonstrate good will on the part of the community, in contrast to the name calling tweet that was screenshotted (have never heard of that person before)
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kylewm
tantek__: I think the "10 patriarchial jerks" were not anbody actually attacking her, but replying and trying to correct her
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@kevinmarks
RT @veganstraightedge: My website is made by me. It's part of the #indieweb. I use a database (pg) as my primary data store. It's my site. … (twtr.io/qugRGpT07U)
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /code-of-conduct (+123) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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alanpearce
Funny that there's a 'gender' option in the user profile with only three options.
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tantek___
alanpearce, which user profile?
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alanpearce
after all this discussion :)
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alanpearce
http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Preferences
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ben_thatmustbeme
trying to use a generic User template everywhere I put my name now on the site
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tantek___
oh in Mediawiki? FFS. Paging tommorris.
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kylewm
alanpearce: why would anyone put anything other than "Unspecified" there
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alanpearce
Exactly.
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barnabywalters
really software which wants your gender in order to use correct pronouns shouls just have a text box where you type your preferred pronoun
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tantek___
In other news, another RSS aggregator is shutting down: http://feeds.adobe.com/
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alanpearce
Trouble is, there are multiple types of pronouns
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alanpearce
And they differ by language
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tommorris
yeah, so the gender setting in mediawiki can be used by templates to give gender-specific pronouns
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barnabywalters
having a text entry is still going to produce better results than a constrained dropdown though
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tommorris
there's been some debate about it. it'd probably be better to have custom pronouns. feel free to lobby mediawiki devs or build a custom extension
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barnabywalters
I’m not too familiar with the topic, or how it applies in languages other than English. Is it documented anywhere?
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alanpearce
I can't think of anywhere specific, no.
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ben_thatmustbeme
well in 1 day, /database-antipattern got the most number of edits by far
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shaners_
I think everyone should stop @-ing at Shanley. Regardless of what she's saying or what you think about it, it's doing no one any good right now. Me, you, her, the indieweb. Just everyone back away. Write whatever you want about whatever you want, just don't @mention her. Please.
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Loqi
shaners_: tantek___ left you a message 31 minutes ago: what is pg? It looks like we don't have a page for "pg" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pg
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shaners_
tantek___ pg = postgres
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shaners_
tantek_ you can just redirect pg to http://indiewebcamp.com/PostgreSQL
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tantek.com
created /pg (+24) "r" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
agreed shanners_ though i haven't seen many people @mention her in here
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i'm only seeing part of the conversating
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/conversating/conversation
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: but i'm only seeing part of the conversation
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tantek___
shaners thanks. done. could you add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/PostgreSQL#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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