finalcutHaxxa : I don't know if you're still here. I had similar issue that I self created. After getting known working I tried to edit the config.ini file and point to a different mongodb; at that point it just stayed stuck at the begin page and I could never move forward. I had to point back to my first mongodb instance. My "begin" page exists though (http://rawlinson.us/begin)
ben_thatmustbemehonestly this is getting me to wonder if I should move away from a DB myself. the more i think about it, its the stuff that I happened to back up in html or flat files are the stuff i still have around
tommorrisben_thatmustbeme: David Lewis once said that he would present his theories from 'On the Plurality of Worlds' and just get back incredulous stares. His response: "I cannot refute an incredulous stare"
tommorrisLewis also said in a later edition: "I once complained that my modal realism met with many incredulous stares, but few argued objections. The arguments were soon forthcoming. I think they have been adequately countered. They lead at worse to standoffs. The incredulous stares remain. They remain unanswerable."
barnabywalterstaking a look at the profiles/personal sites of a few of the angry retweeters reveals (warning: cursory anecdata) â‰ˆ30% have static personal sites (esp. github pages), many are database engineers
barnabywalterssnarfed: agreed about the buggy reimplementation, have done that myself, but still misses the point that DBs are excellent for indexing, searching, caching etc but v. poor for long term (10+ years) storage
ShaneHudsongRegor`: I don't think there was much confusion... she was referring to 'white males' who work for large corporations, which is the case for some here (though I don't see how it is a problem!)
danlykebarnabywalters, I don't remember when I moved Flutterby.com from flat file to database, but it's been 10+ years. SQL text file backups. Started Flutterby.net as flat file, but as it grows I'm headed back towards databases.
tantek__ShaneHudson, correct, more diversity on the indieweb is essential, and thus it behooves all of us who are or resemble any kind of dominant homogeneity to reach beyond usual friend circles, similar backgrounds, similar appearances, etc.
danlykebarnabywalters yeah, the way I figure it is that a filesystem is a database, anything on top of me reading and writing bits by toggling SPI lines is, we need tools to read everything, so layering on top of other code is a good simplification.
tantek__danlyke, the "filesystem is a database" reasoning is flawed, in that it ignores the broader context that tools to backup/inspect file systems are *far* more automatic/easy (and already in use) than the same for *separate* such things for databases.
ben_thatmustbemebut my e-mails from back then are gone because I stored them all in a program that kept them in a DB. sure they claim the DB was portable, but here I am years later, and I don't have them
tommorrisUsing wget and spidering your own site is a pretty seamless bit of self-archiving. I should probably write a super-simple and portable script to do that and plonk it on a few different machines on a cron job.
danlyketommorris but if I'm looking to repurpose that data later, I can recreate the schema in PostgreSQL with everything as TEXT (or MySQL with carefully hand-crafted types because MySQL). Not really a problem.
tantek__danlyke I have a ton of old emails "saved" in mbox format. However I lack a good mbox "viewer" (short of importing them into a new email program which I have no desire to do, I just want to view/browse)
tommorrisdanlyke: Oh no, it's *a* backup strategy. One backup strategy is not enough. Storing encrypted pgdumps on S3 is my standard go-to backup strategy. curl/wget is a backup for the backup strategy.
tantek___and the lack of diversity issue is nothing to make any humor about. it is a real issue, and we should all accept shanley's criticisms of that gracefully, and work on improvements, not defenses.
petermolnareu"we may be doing things we’re unaware of which put people off" I know this is a rabbithole, but I will say my opinion: I do not care. A group with an idea, with principles, where is no one forced to join or not to join; I think this is OK like this.
ben_thatmustbemepersonally I don't care what any of you look like, i thought thats the idea of being an internet based community. I think it just represents more to the communities this group started in
ben_thatmustbemebasically its more looking like shanley is trying the 'attack the speaker to discredit the argument' argument (there is a phrase for that, i swear). Which i consider to have lost discourse. there was discussion of CAP and ACID and future friendly, but shanley has lost that. a
ben_thatmustbemelack of diversity is another issue shanley is using as attack on the DB issue. Its a known problem we have been discussing, but honestly shanley isn't providing discourse there, just pointing a finger and saying look they aren't diverse.
barnabywaltersdanlyke: my experience has been 1) build DB-driven personal site, partly to learn skills which could be applied professionally 2) get a full-time programming job 3) no longer have time to maintain database-driven site
LoqiA manifesto is "a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government" according to Wikipedia http://indiewebcamp.com/manifesto
tantek___part of the reason we are frustrated with /silos are their inevitable /site-deaths and loss of content and permalinks, thus one of the indieweb principles is building for the long web /longevity.
tantek___and as soon as you start thinking & designing for longevity you realize longevity of your *content* and *data* is critical, and when you design for that, you find that databases are *bad* for longevity. hence antipattern.
neuro`tantek___: I understand the point of view. I'm probably too much involved in ops and data longevity / reusability not to consider SQL in general a not so bad solution to handle data that have relation between them.
danlykeneuro` that's why multiple formats, and one of them lossless (ie: TIFF) if you can justify the space. Also, you *must* have an ongoing process for reading back those files. I've lost a few jpgs over the years because of filesystem corruption.
LoqiThe database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content (like on an indieweb site), and is an anti-pattern due to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence, and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern
ben_thatmustbemetantek___ couldn't find anything about it, but I'm thinking i'm going to have to start doing that as I am going to need additional features soon. I just want others to still be able to use it
ben_thatmustbemehaha, showed my friend /database-antipattern "lol, well, it turns the tables on the DB religious warriors. MySQL-zealots hate PostGres-zealots who also hate SQL Server zealots, and then you got Oracle... as soon as someone comes along and says, "Should we use databases at all?" they all have found a common enemy."
neuro`This debate in interesting / funny for us tech people. But from an end user experience point of view, having to pick up a database / setup flat file storage to start publishing on the Web is a huge problem
Loqitantek___ meant to say: step 1: pick a cargo cult aspect of web dev. step 2: write up a wiki page debunking it. step 3: wait for someone to discover it on Twitter, react emotionally, and spread awareness of it.
tantek___tommorris, to be fair, if two DB clients asynchronously "insert a row into a table", the DB handles both inserts atomically. whereas if two file clients write to a file, their writes may conflict and one may overwrite the other.
tantek___that would have the effect of linking the datetime of the interaction to the permalink of the interaction which is both a common practice (linking dates to permalinks), and makes it so that the bridgy page is more human-useful
tantek___petermolnar, the assumption should be that there *is* a diverse "enough" crowd (as you say) that *is* interested in this topic. It's just the challenge of finding and inviting, welcoming etc. them
tommorrishadleybeeman, tantek___, petermolnar, alanpearce: I'll probably set up a page on IWC wiki where we can collect together a list of people who would be keen on regularly (or irregularly) attending HWC-London. once that reaches a point where it would be worth finding a venue, we can then try rebooting it again
tantek___polite respect in the face of anything less than that will help demonstrate good will on the part of the community, in contrast to the name calling tweet that was screenshotted (have never heard of that person before)
shaners_I think everyone should stop @-ing at Shanley. Regardless of what she's saying or what you think about it, it's doing no one any good right now. Me, you, her, the indieweb. Just everyone back away. Write whatever you want about whatever you want, just don't @mention her. Please.