#indiewebcamp 2014-09-22

2014-09-22 UTC
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tantek KartikPrabhu: "someone without a blog make a comment of more than 140chars?" - how about - easier to encourage people to get their own blog (e.g. free on Tumblr, Blogger, Wordpress.com) if they want to comment >140chars rather than build/admin/de-spam a comment system.
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bret KevinMarks, sent you a PR: https://github.com/kevinmarks/noterlive/pull/5
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tantek GWG - what was that in reference to? something happen?
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tantek KartikPrabhu++ for positive engagement with new folks
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 57 karma
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KartikPrabhu tantek: more like "How does someone without a blog make any statement of more than 140chars?" 140 char limit of Twitter is a self-imposed restriction
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tantek true
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KartikPrabhu I have a response already, I am just letting the question simmer for a bit ;)
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GWG tantek: This whole debate that seems to have gotten people frustrated.
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tantek GWG - are you frustrated?
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tantek KartikPrabhu++ good call on the simmering! Yes! Pacing back/forth discussions is a good way to maintain the calm :)
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GWG tantek: I love the sense of community here. I'd hate to see it fall apart. I'm more worried. I've been in groups that have imploded.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I think people who are already here are more calm and sensible about it
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tantek GWG - what in the "community here" makes you afraid of "it fall[ing] apart"?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: For instance I haven't seen tantek "condemn" anyone for having a database and vice-a-versa
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GWG tantek: Nothing specific. I'm just paranoid, I suppose.
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KartikPrabhu only outsiders who read one wiki page take it as some sort of indieweb directive
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Should we start thinking of people as 'outsiders'?
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GWG As opposed to people we can invite in?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: by outsiders I mean people not actively participating
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tantek GWG - it's ok to be paranoid. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there's nothing to fear. ;)
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KartikPrabhu again not using "outsider" as a pejorative
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tantek GWG - if you see something specific / concrete that makes you concerned, definitely bring it up so we can resolve it quickly.
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KartikPrabhu opps accidental log out
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tantek KartikPrabhu: "outsider" has pejorative framing thus we should avoid that label.
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KartikPrabhu yes probably. did not intend it though
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tantek I realize you did not intend it that way :)
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tantek GWG - rational critical dialog is helpful, regardless of with whom (in the "community here", or anywhere)
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tantek however, purely emotional responses, especially when posted on a silo, are ignorable, or at best, of some use as input to documentation.
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tantek better to focus on a) scratching your itches, and b) being welcoming to people who are also trying to do the same
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tantek s/welcoming/welcoming & helpful
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Loqi tantek meant to say: better to focus on a) scratching your itches, and b) being welcoming & helpful to people who are also trying to do the same
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GWG tantek: I think you may have noticed I'll debate anything. I am truly passionate about the concept, which spoke to my existing views when I heard first about Indiewebcamp when I heard someone speaking about it.
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tantek There is nothing to fear from purely emotional responses on silos, since such behavior cannot be constructive in its own right, and only serves to undercut the source's credibility, as well as make people curious about what all the fuss is about (curiousity about indieweb is good)
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tantek emotional publicity is still good publicity
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KartikPrabhu we did get a few "agreement" type tweets on the whole debate too
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tantek interesting
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GWG I worry about the quality of discourse
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KartikPrabhu they were drowned by the "wars" but they did show up in the channel
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GWG I might have been overwhelmed by the flood
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I think that is a people problem not a technology problem
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I'll agree.
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GWG I think Kay said it best
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GWG "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."
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tantek GWG - re: "quality of discourse" - that's exactly why you don't respond to purely emotional responses, don't turn them into discourse.
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tantek by selectively responding only to rational statements, we encourage and create rational discourse.
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tantek flamewars have no persistence, they, for lack of a better phrase, flame out.
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KartikPrabhu unless you feed them
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tantek right, hence "why you don't respond to purely emotional responses"
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GWG Is this the...Don't Feed the Trolls philosophy?
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tantek GWG - related. I don't think it is reasonable nor accurate to lump all emotional responses as "trolls".
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GWG tantek: Agreed, I meant conceptually.
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tantek in fact, I'd guess that most emotional responses are *not* trolls
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KartikPrabhu yes ^ troll has become a general word to use against the opposing party in a debate
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GWG Don't throw fuel on the fire?
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tantek right
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parzzix Sorry to interupt the discussion...does anyone here know how to get known to look for mongodb instead of sql...the default script seems to want sql?
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KartikPrabhu any self-hosted Known people around? bear , kylewm ^
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tantek parzzix - good question. Originally Known / idno was built on mongoDB. not sure when it switched to MySQL. nor that it was a "hard" switch.
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tantek does the /Known#FAQ help at all here?
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parzzix haven't found anything...lol I could do sql, just have to figure out how to use it..
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kylewm parzzix: according to the documentation it should use Mongo by default unless there's a config.ini telling it to use mysql ... is that not the case?
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parzzix no, I didn't create it. But when I go to page for first time I cannot get past giving the sql database settings
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parzzix You can see it at 104.131.33.204 ...
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kylewm parzzix: hrmph, lemme take a look at mine
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kylewm oh wow, this is all new! did you install from git?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: maybe now Known defaults to MySQL, changing the config file to use MongoDB might work?
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parzzix kylewm, I downloaded the zip file of the withknown website
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parzzix I'm just tring to get somthing self hosted going...I really like known and redwind, but maybe it's beyond my tech skills...maybe I should just use wordpress
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: can you access the config.ini in your installation root folder?
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parzzix yeah...it
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KartikPrabhu does it say MySQL in database ?
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parzzix opp..hit enter..it's in a VPS
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parzzix just a sec
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kylewm parzzix: yeah, it looks like KartikPrabhu's guess is right on!
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kylewm I changed the config.ini from database="MySQL" to database="Mongo" and (after installing php5-mongo) it seems to work
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KartikPrabhu also see: http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/install/instructions.html#if-you-re-using-mongodb
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parzzix right now I don't have a config.ini
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KartikPrabhu oh i see. kylewm is the MongoDB config file same as the MySQL one except for the database="" property ?
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kylewm mine looks like this:
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kylewm database = 'Mongo'
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kylewm filesystem = 'local'
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kylewm uploadpath = '/var/www/data/'
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kylewm
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parzzix i'm going to copy yours kylewm ...for now...see if it helps
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: that would be a good step :)
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kylewm anybody know why Known requires xmlrpc?
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kylewm GWG: I think of the quote from Men in Black more often than I care to admit
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parzzix kylewm, KartikPrabhu ....used that config.ini and now I killed it..lol
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KartikPrabhu killed in a good way?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: maybe for the feed reader?
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parzzix lol....getting a Not Found
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KartikPrabhu :(
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kylewm parzzix: um, did you lose your .htaccess somehow?
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parzzix looking
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parzzix it's till there kylewm
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kylewm it's an .htaccess thing somehow because http://104.131.33.204/index.php/begin/ works
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kylewm you are using Apache?
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parzzix yes
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parzzix hmm...but it breaks after that link also..I think.
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kylewm parzzix: AllowOverride in /etc/apache2/apache2.conf
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parzzix ok....let me check/do
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kylewm I added a block like this:
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kylewm <Directory /var/www/html>
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kylewm Options Indexes FollowSymLinks
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kylewm AllowOverride All
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kylewm Require all granted
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kylewm </Directory>
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kylewm
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kylewm.com edited /Known (+336) "/* How to */ tell Known to use Mongo" (view diff)
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parzzix made changes....restarting apache
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parzzix got this .... The requested URL /begin/register/ was not found on this server.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: good one on documentation. I was going to suggest that
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KartikPrabhu kylewm++ even
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Loqi kylewm has 56 karma
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kylewm.com edited /Known (+831) "/* How to */ allow .htaccess overrides" (view diff)
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kylewm parzzix: Did you replace /var/www/html with the actual root of your installation?
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kylewm.com edited /Known (+176) "/* Use MongoDB */ caveat that benwerd recommends MySQL" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Known (-3) "/* Fix 404 Not Found on /begin */ fix typo" (view diff)
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parzzix yes.......it's in that directory
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kylewm.com edited /Known (+146) "/* Setup Known on nginx */ add rascul's nginx configuration" (view diff)
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@puppet_ebooks NOT writing a social media campaign about diversity. indieweb is getting some aspects of creating an old lady. Driving past Folsom street... (twitter.com/_/status/513858229093556224)
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KartikPrabhu wtf ^
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tantek perhaps a bot generating gibberish. name on that account is "sock puppet" after all.
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tantek indeed, @puppet_ebooks looks like nonsense gleaned from other sources
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tantek I'm blocking it
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tantek !block puppet_ebooks
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Loqi Got it! There are now 15 spammers blacklisted
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kylewm could also be a human generating gibberish like @horse_ebooks
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tantek none of their content appears to be of any value about anything
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parzzix thanks to kylewm my known is working...thanks so much.... now to figure out how to get plugins and themes working...lol
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tantek kylewm++ awesome!! especially for adding to /Known documentation for this.
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Loqi kylewm has 57 karma
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kylewm :D
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: on this question about (3) replying to (2) replying to (1) do you know what he means by "Stream"?
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kylewm like, is he literally saying that my reply doesn't show up on https://kylewm.com/page/5 ?
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KartikPrabhu The (3) links are broken. so I don't really know
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KartikPrabhu parzzix++ on Known
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Loqi parzzix has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu kylewm++ for helping parzzix
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KartikPrabhu Loqi where be points?
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@BillSeitz RT @puppet_ebooks: NOT writing a social media campaign about diversity. indieweb is getting some aspects of creating an old lady. Driving p… (twitter.com/_/status/513872430440263681)
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tantek wat
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/724885424/1566815933547350/214611 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/724885424/1566815933547350/100001080917217 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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acegiak tantek: pretty sure that's a markov chain bot
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tantek KartikPrabhu, kylewm since you've conversed with @BillSeitz - perhaps you can ask him what he means by retweeting that?
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tantek acegiak agreed
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acegiak but hwat are it's text sources though?
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acegiak it's like angry feminism / web technologies at a 50/50 split
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parzzix Anyone know why plugins don't load in current release of known?
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acegiak or at least the recent tweets are
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tantek check it out - now I'm causing duplicate RSVPs :D http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/homebrew-website-club
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tantek de-duping RSVPs is likely going to require some fancy rel-me action
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tantek parsing it that is
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acegiak !tell benwerd is my mf2 here weird? http://acegiak.net/2014/09/22/ben-werdmuller-screw-your-tesla-im-getting-a-terrestrial-shrub-rover-httpwww-youtube-comwatchvgtvtdhj6fqo/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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parzzix what directory should the known pligins be in? ldno or ldnoplugins?
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parzzix docs saying ldnoplugins but not working.
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acegiak uggh
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acegiak so I want to be able to reblog things with script and iframe tags
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acegiak but I feel like that's a massive security flaw
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GWG acegiak: How so/
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acegiak cause then I'm potentially loading up harmful remote javascript?
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acegiak I'm NOTORIOUSLY bad at security
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GWG acegiak: That was why I wanted to go for passing information to my site and having it work on the other side.
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acegiak GWG: I don't understand
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GWG Well, you want to link, or repost the entire article?
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acegiak I want to repost the content
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acegiak but If that content includes a .js file there's no way of knowing if it's later swapped out with evil
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GWG So, same idea as I was proposing before. Pipe the content into your site and parse it.
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acegiak oh right
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acegiak kk
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acegiak a lot of this stuff is minified though
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GWG Well, do you need to reproduce it exactly?
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acegiak GWG: for something like a vine embed: yes?
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acegiak maybe it comes down to "don't reblog things from untrusted sources"
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GWG Well, I'd say that you want to do what I tried to do, if you want a suggestion
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GWG You default to something safe, and have special cases for other items.
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (+46) "/* Where */ no Chicago meeting" (view diff)
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acegiak GWG: looking into sandboxing now
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GWG What I'm curious about is this...if it is my content, reproducing it is fine. But what if you are reposting someone else's?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: you pass the HTML through a cleaner of sorts stripping away the javascript stuff and then use a mfparser to get the needed content. Not much different than a webmentioed comment I think
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GWG KartikPrabhu: That is along the lines of what I was thinking.
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KartikPrabhu there is no need to treat external comments differently than other external content
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@denials I now have a #posse with Known (http://withknown.com/). Groovy #indieweb publishing platform with hooks to the Twitters. (twitter.com/_/status/513899524931457024)
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KartikPrabhu do people here support both a comment form and webmention?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: I waiver on that.
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GWG At the moment, the form is hidden
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acegiak the problem I'm looking at is that so much content is things like video or sound embeds
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GWG That is harder.
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: you can choose to keep those tags then
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KartikPrabhu I allow img in replies iirc
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Do you cache them though?
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KartikPrabhu nope
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KartikPrabhu i don't have a local cache yet. debating whether to have one
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Loqi [mention] https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/twitter-140-comment-system linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu well there ^ is the response I set to stew
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kylewm great response
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kylewm I like the standalone summary with a link for "more"
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KartikPrabhu yeah that had to be handcrafted... usual truncation isn't good enough for the 140 limit
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: what are they talking about building? an RSS version of twitter?
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KartikPrabhu it started with some #OpenTwitter thing and people asking for webmention based conversations. and then moved to "what is someone does not have a blog" and "having both a comment system and webmention is too much work" full thread: https://twitter.com/joeld/status/513699407129505792
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@joeld .@gRegorLove? RT @BillSeitz: @joeld @davextreme @manton any visible examples of back-and-forth BlogThread using WebMention? #OpenTwitter (twitter.com/_/status/513699407129505792)
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KartikPrabhu hopes to have a reply-thread that captures such conversations some day
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kylewm thanks I'd read the thread but still didn't quite know what the goal was
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KartikPrabhu i think people are figuring out how to do a RSS twitter thing and for notifications of replies came up on webmention and its hows and whys. so it is a meandering conversation
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KartikPrabhu for a short summary of the BillSeitz thinking http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/BlogThread#Sept.272014:_Pondering_interface_challenge
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: also if you don't want notifications from that to your Twitter I'll remove your mention next time around. Will also give me more room ;)
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@kevinmarks @hondanhon like our indieweb breakfast? (twitter.com/_/status/513907359794855936)
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tantek good post KartikPrabhu
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tantek https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/twitter-140-comment-system
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KartikPrabhu :) thanks
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KartikPrabhu it helps that I am not actually a dev and have no stakes in a "war" :P
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tantek the OpenTwitter thing is funny. I mean, that's what I started building back in 2009 and launched with Falcon in 2010-01-01 and then realized I need to work with other people and here we are :)
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tantek hate to say it but "RSS Twitter" is a short-sighted dead-end.
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KartikPrabhu I see. neat
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tantek but if they want to go down that path that's their time to spend.
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KartikPrabhu I know. I didn't want to go down the RSS vs HTML route
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tantek sure - you focused on the productive aspect
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KartikPrabhu they can do that "exercise for the reader" themselves
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the "BillSeitz thinking" I read - and frankly it is overthinking.
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tantek just got to implement something simple and ship it
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tantek and iterate
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tantek e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Levels
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tantek and heck, all of /IndieMark
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KartikPrabhu yes. trying to sort out all possible problems before starting, means you probably won't start. true of many things, science, dev, design, art
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tantek exactly
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tantek it's also why this community is making so much more progress than others
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tantek especially all the /monoculture communities
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KartikPrabhu despite all the diff. approaches I might add
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tantek not despite, but I'd say, thanks to all the diff. approaches!
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KartikPrabhu nods
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tantek speaking of which we need to document the differences of opinion on /database-antipattern
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tantek at least a summary thereof
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KartikPrabhu i think gregorlove` and kylewm made sime changes to that page
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KartikPrabhu s/sime/some
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: i think gregorlove` and kylewm made some changes to that page
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tantek I saw - however we need to do more
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tantek especially in a short summary up at the top, with specific examples / sites / people
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KartikPrabhu yes a link to File-Storage#indiweb_examples and same for database would be useful
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KartikPrabhu one of the strangest arguments against HTML based storage I saw was about needing to put CSS and JS to view it in a browser
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KartikPrabhu which is downright incorrect
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tantek yeah that was hilarious
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KartikPrabhu for reference in the future: https://twitter.com/duckinator/status/512853376594223104
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@duckinator We'll need CSS for the inspectability you want. Are browser prefixes okay? Can I include JS? Can I include REALLY OBNOXIOUS JS?@kevinmarks (twitter.com/_/status/512853376594223104)
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tantek lol strawman
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tantek semantic markup is sufficient to give you reasonably readable markup with default presentation
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KartikPrabhu i think I wrote a longish article about it
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KartikPrabhu https://kartikprabhu.com/article/line-mode
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tantek KartikPrabhu: LOL: "In the heyday of the Web 2.0 fad, I was once on a web-team that followed the latest trend and used Javascript to fill up an empty webpage with content."
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KartikPrabhu yeah AJAX remember :P
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KartikPrabhu it was for a my college tech-fest. I think they still do tat shit
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tantek KartikPrabhu: also you credit "Cover photo: Matrix by elleizarra on Flickr." but I don't see it anywhere on your post.
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KartikPrabhu tantek: oh that photo only shows as a thumbnail in feed. I should update it for newer best practices
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KartikPrabhu tantek: for the record, I worked on one of the earlier version of this monstrosity: http://ktj.in/
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KartikPrabhu in the following years they have also managed to make a worse UI :| sheesh
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tantek "only shows as a thumbnail in feed." - that seems like an antipattern. Why not show it as a "featured" image at the top of your blog post?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. This is an old post :P
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KartikPrabhu pre-indieweb days too
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tantek almost a year old!
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KartikPrabhu in fact 2 months (approx) before indieweb
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neuro` Good mofning.
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tantek I didn't notice the date because it wasn't at the top
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tantek hello neuro` !
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KartikPrabhu morning neuro`
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neuro` Good morning KartikPrabhu, tantek. Hope you had a nice weekend
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tantek KartikPrabhu: http://tantek.com/2012/127/t3/article-post-permalink-date-near-top-header
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KartikPrabhu good point
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KartikPrabhu I have been thinking that too, but just clubbed all meta-data at the bottom
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KartikPrabhu but date on top and tags on bottom seems like a better choice
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KartikPrabhu neuro`: I did. Started work on a website for a friend so more Django+python in the near future
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acegiak Getting emily, my wife, into the indieweb
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acegiak setting blackwoolholiday.com up with sempress
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KartikPrabhu awesome!
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acegiak we can have our own little IWC:ause in our house :P
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KartikPrabhu a literal Homebrew Website Club
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acegiak yearp
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tantek acegiak++ for bringing more people onto the IndieWeb!
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Loqi acegiak has 5 karma
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (+25) "/* URLs */ comment out MSP & CHI for this week" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (+25) "/* RSVP */ comment out MSP & CHI this week" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (+25) "/* Notes */ comment out CHI & MSP this week" (view diff)
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@lenciel database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp: link:http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513928483966562304)
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tet would you guys delete an article about the microformat antipattern?
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acegiak tet: I feel like whether or not someone stores their data in a databse or flatfile doesn't directly affect their participation in the indieweb, whereas microformats are a central community convetion to the indieweb
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acegiak when I go to read from someone else's page microformats affect me, their data storage doesn't
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neuro` acegiak: congrats!
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KartikPrabhu tet: what would you suggest using instead of microformats?
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tet Ruby's HTML-parser libs keep breaking - hipsters invent new ones, abandoning old ones (HPricot, now Nokogiri), xml lib churn breaks them whether via SWIG/C-binding error issues or otherwise, then your microformats libs build on these are brokentoo
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tet as far as i can tell, mf2 stil isn't fully decentralized-extensible ala RDFa predicates?
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tet on 'antipattern' comment on angular-UI - linked-data UIs never work unless you have good webarch to begin with, proper doc/thing URI distinction, content-negotiation, CORS support, you'd be full of red-dots and errordialogs in no time. it's just a silly-trick in *addition* to lynx-support noJS HTML
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tet in short, i believe all those things, and ditching ad-hoc microformats are key components to longevity and flexibility (related) more so than minting these oneoff 'mention/pingback' things to make twitter/diaspora clones before fixing basic webarch issues, etc etc
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KartikPrabhu unfortunately I don't understand most of those words
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tet structured data is preferable to unstructured, i'm not a MF hater, it just seems like something to consider *After* your server is returning turtle or jsonld properly.. in case someone really insists on fishing around inside HTML
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KartikPrabhu I want my website to be for humans not robots so not much into the whole turtle/jsonld thing I am afraid
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tet KartikPrabhu: i will expand it into a longform "microformats antipattern" post on my own site
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tet to be in spirit of the indieweb
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tet link to everytrhing, try to explain to those unfamiliar with the ways in which web architecture favors longevity and flexibility and decentralization that people are underutilizing
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tet turtle's a lot more pleasant to read, and it's less fragile, you ust need a turtle parser, not an xml/htl5 lib, scripting-lang bindings to said lib, then microformats parsers for inside that structure
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tet and once it's in that format it's trivial to spit out HTML with the same data in it via a 1line script, for those that want HTML
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KartikPrabhu but my browser reads HTML just fine.
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KartikPrabhu again if the end result is to be HTML, I really don't want to deal with intermediates. Me not being a dev and all
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tet sure, use whatever format you want
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tet HTTP is MIME-type agnostic
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tet i would encourage more usage of text/plain too
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tet trivial https?://\s+ scanners on links
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KartikPrabhu tet: we already do that for notes :)
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tet or /(https?:\/\/(\([^)>\s]*\)|[,.]\S|[^\s),.”\'\"<>\]])+)/ or whatever
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KartikPrabhu but that does not tell me how others should interact with my website for comments and all that stuff
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KartikPrabhu but of course, you can write said article on your own website... I'd read it :)
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KartikPrabhu I spend enough time trying to navigate Latex, Markdown, HTML, CSS, JS to be really bothered with another format
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KartikPrabhu not to mention all the SASS, LESS, CoffeeScript that people keep telling me to use
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KartikPrabhu and all that regex you spoke that went flying over my head :P
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tet it how i'm extracting HTTP links from plaintext. alternates welcome
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KartikPrabhu I am not the one to ask :P
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tet once your stars align and your html5/python-html5/mf-parsers work, how do you add arbitrary new properties? eg with RDF you just POST them on your own webserver, can't get more indie than that. no petitiotnin danbri@google, tantek@mf.org, whoever
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tet how do you get the same data expressed in the mf2 in one of the deployed graph-data formats
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KartikPrabhu I have never needed a "graph-data format" for anything so far
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tet it should be doable with the right webserver, if you dig writing HTMLfirst
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tet it's been a timesaver here. not having to write *any* HTML-generation code. (tho i have some fallback stuff for lynx)
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kylewm tet: where is your personal site?
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tet eg, tim and some of his students wrote a data-browser
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tet kylewm: don't have one
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KartikPrabhu ahh tet you should have one and show us how this can work. I have learnt a lot by seeing others' websites and the source :)
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tet http://m.whats-your.name/2014/09/22.n3 is the graph data
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kylewm tet: I think I am missing the context for your comments about microformats-antipattern :)
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tet s/n3/html/ and you get HTML data.
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Loqi tet meant to say: http://m.whats-your.name/2014/09/22.html is the graph data
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tet ehhe wtf
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tet this is good, now you don't even need the bloated, crufty HTML5 environment anymore
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tet you still have a global web of data, but can interact with it in wayas you prefer
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KartikPrabhu can't see it in my browser to read
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tet ie, if you hate JS, and want an openGL or ncurses UI, have at it using the n3/turtle
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KartikPrabhu I hardly use any JS anyway
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KartikPrabhu I don't think I want to say to my friends "hey here is my website, but you can't read it in FF"
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KartikPrabhu seems like HTML is what is read by most people, and so I'll just build on that instead of inventing a new browser
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tet they already exist, written in JS
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KartikPrabhu oh man JS is worse than writing HTML
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tet even if you have JS disabled, most of your browser's UI is written in JS , so it's kind of hypocritical to go luddite on it if you use chromium/firefox and just block it eveyrwehre
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KartikPrabhu I like that my browser does not cough up errors when my HTML is bad
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KartikPrabhu not the same with JS running
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kylewm I have no idea what I'm looking at on m.whats-your.name ... it's an email archive or something?
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kylewm like, what is "msg.eKd" is that meaningful?
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KartikPrabhu tet: using your Turtle LinkedData magic would you still output HTML?
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kylewm tet: where should we look for your microformats-antipattern article?
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tet curl http://mw.logbook.am/msg/07b/E1Wxx85-0002pk-6u@elasmtp-mealy.atl.sa.earthlink.net.ttl
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tet this is the graph-data KartikPrabhu. arguable more readable than HTML. even if you lac a parser/browser, a plaintext reader will do in a pinch
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tet if you've installed https://github.com/linkeddata/tabulator , your browser gains support for this MIME type
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KartikPrabhu tet: I dont think my readers will want to read that unfortunately
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KartikPrabhu and I don't have a text-reader on my phone at the moment
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tet kylewm: procmail doesnt seem to allow arbitrary suffixes. i believe that's the -mh format, as opposed to maildir, it's just filenames its greated
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kylewm hey latest commit authored by Berners-Lee, that's cool
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kylewm going to bed, g'night Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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kylewm I said good night, Loqi!
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Loqi goodnight!
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @kevinmarks: also thanks to @bretolius for another pull request (twitter.com/_/status/513948242837372929)
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KevinMarks__ hm, noterlive needs an icon. Suggestions?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__: http://thenounproject.com/term/edit/12944/
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KevinMarks__ lots of notes too
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KevinMarks__ http://thenounproject.com/search/?q=note
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KevinMarks__ note seems crayon themed
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KevinMarks__ this is live http://thenounproject.com/term/live/63206/
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KartikPrabhu this is good: http://thenounproject.com/term/note/48407/
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KevinMarks__ I was thinking take a pencil and put that in the transmitter tower
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KartikPrabhu maybe combine the live icon with this http://thenounproject.com/term/note/40033/
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acegiak GWG: this is weird. Installed indieweb taxonomy on emily's site and got the following: http://pastebin.com/F86L5bQM
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acegiak which shouldn't ever happen if I understand the wordpress filter?
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@filiptepper Database-Antipattern, an interesting approach, I love simplifying things. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern?utm_source=dbweekly&utm_medium=email (twitter.com/_/status/513956025280770048)
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KevinMarks__ there we go: http://www.noterlive.com/noterlive.svg
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neuro` KevinMarks__: nice
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__: nice
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@elfpavlik I wonder if http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub could use application/ld+json besides application/x-www-form-urlencoded ? #indiewebcamp @aaronpk (twitter.com/_/status/513966688539537408)
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KevinMarks__ also, noterlive now has tweet length countdown warnings
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KevinMarks__ what is with the LD fanboys?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "with the LD fanboys" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=with+the+LD+fanboys
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KevinMarks__ hah
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KartikPrabhu it is the new thing KevinMarks__ get with the times ;)
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KevinMarks__ json-ld is the new n3
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks__ I think we went through n3 tonight already
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KartikPrabhu what is n3?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "n3" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=n3
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KevinMarks__ no
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KevinMarks__ see earlier comments from tet
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KevinMarks__ who kept saying things were trivial, yet somehow didn't have a homepage
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KartikPrabhu I don't understand the obsession to compile into HTML
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KartikPrabhu since HTML is the final output anyway
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KartikPrabhu reminds me to writing Latex to make PDF urggh
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KevinMarks__ these rdf/n3/turtle/json-ld types are mostly harmless as they only write in formats no-one but them can read anyway
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KevinMarks__ it's like lojban
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alanpearce_ I like the idea of lojban :)
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KartikPrabhu alanpearce_ and I like the idea of RDF until I went to write it
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bnvk oh no, not lojban again
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KevinMarks__ I like Danny O'Brien's comment "RDF was the LSD of the 90s"
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KartikPrabhu but in all seriousness, I hope someone tries making a publish->parse->notification system using RDF or whatever else
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KartikPrabhu and actually uses it
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@xtof_fr FB envisagerait de facturer 2.99 USD par mois et par utilisateur. >> http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/567070/20140922/facebook-charge-users-2-99-monthly-fee.htm#.VB_GliuSzl1 Pas vu d'alternatives #indieweb ? (twitter.com/_/status/513972525772972032)
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@WaldoKanto RT @xtof_fr: FB envisagerait de facturer 2.99 USD par mois et par utilisateur. >> http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/567070/20140922/facebook-charge-users-2-99-monthly-fee.htm#.VB_GliuSzl1 Pas vu d'alternatives #indieweb ? (twitter.com/_/status/513972776269774848)
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@JockelLohkamp Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You Actually Own What You Post http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #indieweb #GETDBerlin #P2P (twitter.com/_/status/513982479816880130)
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@OpenSteps RT @JockelLohkamp: Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You Actually Own What You Post http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #indieweb #GETDBerlin #… (twitter.com/_/status/513984653586628608)
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@homobil RT @JockelLohkamp: Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You Actually Own What You Post http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #indieweb #GETDBerlin #… (twitter.com/_/status/513985802842693632)
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@rorykoehler Thanks to organisers @JockelLohkamp & @hildebrand and everyone else who attended #GETDBerlin . Feeling inspired by the #indieweb movement (twitter.com/_/status/514001164632088576)
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@jongold @imcatnoone but it's very much an indieweb affectation vs the realities of trying to build a business before you run out of money. (twitter.com/_/status/514003428398616576)
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parzzix Known plugins not working..ben told me somthin about setting path in config.ini?
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parzzix kylewm, going to install redwind on another instance and see which I like more...Can I just start with a lamp stack for it?
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GWG acegiak: That's odd. Never happened in testing
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shanehudson.net edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+219) (view diff)
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@McMasterMCM Will your intranet get Known? @shelholtz discusses the IndieWeb movement & #internalcomms http://holtz.com/blog/internal/will-your-intranet-get-known/4405/ (twitter.com/_/status/514037406115188737)
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parzzix good morning tantek
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tantek good morning parzzix! how's your Known site going?
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parzzix ok....no plugins working yet though
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neuro` Morning tantek and parzzix
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tantek good morning neuro` !
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tantek nice blog post about the database recovery insanity
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tantek http://t37.net/how-i-saved-that-corrupted-critical-database-and-ruined-my-10th-wedding-anniversary.html
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tantek I want to add it to /database-antipattern if that's ok ;)
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parzzix morning neuro`
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@conflictmedia IndieWeb advocates launch Known so bloggers can be social and still control their content https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ https://indiewebcamp.com/Known (twitter.com/_/status/514046712017854464)
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tantek Hey nice WIRED article too - interesting that it hasn't been tweeted as much - or perhaps just failed to mention "indieweb" in the title: http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/
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petermolnar (offtopic) Loqi, you made my day, thank you: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2011/02/12/1/loqi-the-friendly-irc-bot
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petermolnar tantek I don't think that link fits in the antipattern page; databases do have their place in the world (just like flat files) and I have not found what that db in the article was used for
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tantek petermolnar: from the article it sounds like it was used for some massive multi-user thing, which you're right, doesn't fit with the indieweb use-case
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tantek was just thinking of adding it as another example of database maintenance hell
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tantek like in a section at the bottom - Other Examples Of Database Maintenance
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petermolnar I have stories on that as well, with broken replication chains and so on, but still, we would not survive without dbs at all :)
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tantek.com edited /Known (+515) "new articles section with WIRED and GigaOM articles" (view diff)
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tantek Ok wikipedia editors, this is enough to get a "Known(software)" article started: http://indiewebcamp.com/Known#Articles <-- citations. cc: tommorris
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tommorris tantek: will have a look when I am not on the move.
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tantek tommorris cool - then I'll just ask you opnion/advice questions instead then. Since enwp.org/Known redirects to enwp.org/Knowledge, should I create this first? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Known%28disambiguation%29
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@livingthepart And so the week begins - have a great one everybody! If u need a giggle check out livingthepart .com for a funny Web Series! #indieweb #film (twitter.com/_/status/514052789090385920)
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parzzix thinking of having a wordpress and my known...so i have somthing stable until known is 100%
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ben_thatmustbeme hey all
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parzzix hey ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme hey parzzix, what are you up to today?
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tantek oops am I causing that?
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like it
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tantek KartikPrabhu, kylewm, tet: well done with civil dialog last night.
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, never noticed the irc logs pull in icons for tweets too. nice touch
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.uebyn.com/post/98145462179 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.uebyn.com/post/98145462179 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.uebyn.com/post/98145462179 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Principles (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.uebyn.com/post/98145462179 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/fun (webmention)
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parzzix ben_thatmustbeme, trying to get my plugins working on my known site
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tantek holy hell
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tantek apologies for that -
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ben_thatmustbeme I'll just blame Loqi
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tantek aaronpk is there something useful we can do with invitation webmentions like this?
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pdurbin Loqi is loquacious
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tantek updates his Twitter bio for better linebreaking
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@Uebyn "We don’t care to see yet another recycled design, we want to see you..." Free the Web, http://blog.uebyn.com/post/98145462179/free-the-web #MondayBlogs #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/514060802689474560)
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tantek nice blog post http://blog.uebyn.com/post/98145462179/free-the-web
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/724885424/1566815933547350/215522 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/724885424/1566815933547350/14500255 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/724885424/1566815933547350/740212784 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Haxxa Can Loqi bot be disabled or made less annoying
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tantek Haxxa - indeed we likely need to figure out some way to cluster the webmentions to indiewebcamp.com since they're only going to grow
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Haxxa yep
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kylewm parzzix: benwerd was suggesting adding path = "/var/www/html/" to your config file
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kylewm parzzix: the only thing I can think of is maybe the IdnoPlugins and Themes directories aren't readable by www-data ?
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tantek !tell aaronpk might be time to stop having Loqi put webmentions to indiewebcamp.com into the channel - getting *very* noisy (too many, sometimes seemingly duplicate, mentions). Perhaps put them into their own dated archives somewhere?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek KartikPrabhu, kylewm apparent very poor choice of hashtag: OpenTwitter - so many different uses of it - https://twitter.com/hashtag/opentwitter?f=realtime&src=hash
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Loqi [mention] http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/09/22/1/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-thread (webmention)
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@gRegorLove @BillSeitz Reply threads are an interesting thing some people are working on. See: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-thread @joeld @davextreme @manton (twitter.com/_/status/514070438473768960)
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kylewm Loqi missed this one https://twitter.com/joeld/status/513723527204462592
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@joeld So many people on both sides of this Indy web thing confuse plumbing issues with appliance design issues. (twitter.com/_/status/513723527204462592)
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tantek exactly - perhaps we should write up the /plumbing-antipattern
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tommorris tantek: yep to earlier msg
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kylewm tantek: ICYMI https://github.com/themattharris/RelMeAuth/pull/5
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tantek kylewm I saw! Thank you! chatted with Matt Harris about it last night! reviewing :)
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kylewm oh, awesome!
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tantek the /plumbing-antipattern is the common antipattern between all the "RSS Twitter" folks (hint - don't start with plumbing which is what RSS is) and those would would obsess over RDFa/JSONLD/turtle/n3 who don't actually publish on the web.
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tantek tet - you mentioned last night "unless you have good webarch to begin" - I for one will not accept anything you claim about webarch until you can prove you understand the basics of webarch by *doing* it - by publishing on the *web* on your own website. until then all your webarch talk is armchair.
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tantek furthermore, all the challenges that KartikPrabhu and kylewm spoke are correct.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's a super useful series of questions to ask, and we should somehow capture it somewhere topical on the wiki
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tantek KartikPrabhu: everything you said starting here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-21#t1411366121306
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tantek interesting: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/twitter-to-release-all-tweets-to-scientists-a-trove-of-billions-of-tweets-will-be-a-research-boon-and-an-ethical-dilemma/
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tantek tommorris - was that a yes re: creating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Known%28disambiguation%29 ?
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tommorris tantek: yep
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bear notes that the "have you implemented it?" question has prevented a whole boatload of armchair architecture talk from him... a *lot*
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parzzix thanks kylewm , i'm trying it now.
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parzzix they still don't load :(
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kylewm haha, I just removed my only Known user's administration rights
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kylewm this is apparently not a good idea
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kylewm parzzix: check /var/log/apache2/error.log
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parzzix ok kylewm
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parzzix [Mon Sep 22 11:38:37.866581 2014] [:error] [pid 1299] [client 137.118.253.179:44444] Known (104.131.33.204): ERROR - Invalid object ID 4, referer: http://104.131.33.204/admin/plugins/
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parzzix kylewm, shows errors like this
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kylewm o_O
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kylewm parzzix: that's a Mongo DB error but I have no idea what it means
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parzzix lol...ok kylewm
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parzzix I may give up and stick to hosted....do a wordpress for my own... I looked into setting up red wind...that looks a like a little to much for me also.
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parzzix I am very much a step by step instructions type of guy.
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kylewm parzzix: yeah understandable, sorry we couldn't get Known self-hosted to work...benwerd may have some ideas if you want to hold out hope
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ShaneHudson It is errors like that which will help him make it easier to install
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kylewm.com edited /Known (+385) "/* How to */ add Plugins and Themes Missing" (view diff)
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kylewm ShaneHudson++
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Loqi ShaneHudson has 8 karma
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parzzix kylewm, I can snapshot my instance and save it...can always load it up later.
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kylewm interesting, GMail uses JSON-LD to add action links to emails https://developers.google.com/gmail/actions/reference/one-click-action
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@weirdnik http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/514087929644609536)
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bret kylewm yeah that was just added the other day
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bret is that vocab pulled from somewhere? or does it allow you to use anything?
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bret ahh schema
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KartikPrabhu completely missed this last night: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-21/line/1411367080635
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bret KartikPrabhu what was the use case?
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KartikPrabhu tet: we don't need stars aligning for mfparsers to work. I could write major code for mf2py within 2 months of learning python, while I couldn't even figure out how to put RDFa in HTML correctly. And we don't have to email tantek@mf.org or anyone else to use new properties. We just use them, and there is an microformats wiki to document use cases.
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KartikPrabhu bret: long story begins here if interested: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-21#t1411365170005 in summary replacing Turtle/jsonld and the like instead of mf2. ALso n3 made an appearance
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bret what is n3?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "n3" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=n3
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bret tet: re a microformat antipattern wiki page. Rather than just showing up and immediately starting a page calling microformats an antipattern your first day here, starting fairly framed discussion on its advantages and disadvantages on the existing microformats page or your own site would probably be more helpful to everyone
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bret oh kylewm my mistake, github added json-ld to their emails to enable action buttons
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bret the other day
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bret gmail has done the action buttons for a while
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KevinMarks_ Writing a microformats antipattern article without grasping the bikeshed-independence of mf2 seems a little quixotic
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danlyke I like microformats in concept, at least a decade ago, but now it's yet another standard to support (My pipeline already deals with Atom and 2 flavors of RSS with extensions (GeoRSS, etc)).
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danlyke And "Oh, PHP has a parser for that, just use that" is... uh...
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KevinMarks_ I think RDF is an abbreviation for Recursive Descent Forever
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KevinMarks_ Danlyke: how does feed.unmung.com cope with your feeds? Do I need to add to the template?
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bret danlyke isn't just supporting either latest atom or rss enough?
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bret seems like most existing readers do both fine
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bret either the*
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danlyke KevinMarks_ dunno, as I play with stuff I'm trying to not build external dependencies into my house of stuff.
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danlyke bret, yeah, it's that a good number of the pages off of indiewepcamp.org/irc-people don't have RSS or Atom feeds easily discoverable (I'm doing inbound checks from feeds rather than WebMention because of my concerns over the latter re-re-re-inventing all of the issues of Referer tracking/Trackback/Pingback/etc).
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bret oh i see you mean consumption too. I was thinking publishing
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danlyke Some of them have microformat tags, so I'll probably end up trying to parse those out.
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bret danlyke, I find like maybe only 45 percent of urls I post into feedbin actually denote their feeds. Usually I end up hunting for a link on the page
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danlyke Yeah, I'm also searching for "RSS" in the link text.
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bret afaict feedbin and most readers only finds feeds if they have a rel=alternate link in the page
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danlyke (and given the number of rel="alternative" or other stuff I've seen, the chances of anyone getting a better set of tags with microformats seems... slim.
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bret what other rel=alternate links do you find most often (besides xml feed stuff)?
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danlyke I think "alternative" is the only other one I've found that I think meant "alternate".
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kylewm is alternative just a mistake?
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danlyke I suspect so. Just as "<a href="/feed/">RSS version</a>" without a <link tag in the header is just a mistake.
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KevinMarks___ It's a grammatical correction that doesn't follow the spec, like spelling referrer correctly
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KevinMarks___ There is also the problem of posting multiple feeds that cover different things
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danlyke Yep, grabbing people's comments feeds instantly makes my reference checker susceptible to other people's comment spam...
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bret danlyke do you know if <a href="/feed" rel="alternate" rel="alternate" type="application/atom+xml">Feed</a> is a valid discovery mechanism?
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bret err, sans the two rel values
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bret or does feed discovery require the <link> tag in the header
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danlyke I'm treating it as such. Also rel="feed alternate"
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danlyke I'm checking both "a" tags and "link" tags.
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bret I'm curious atom/rss spec wise
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bret googles
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danlyke The http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/AutoDiscovery page doesn't have an "a" tag.
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bret oh crap I should update my tags: https://blog.whatwg.org/feed-autodiscovery
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bret rel="feed"
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danlyke But standards are just what most people implement, and one of the joys of writing consumer software is trying to build automated systems to figure out what people meant.
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danlyke Kinda like how you should never ever ever use a validating parser to parse XML, and will probably do much better with regexes.
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bret Its all in the header though, meh... I like the option of having an actual link people can click on... and be the machine feed discovery point as well
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bret "If a page supported hAtom, could this be valid: <link rel=”feed” href=””> ? I.e., a page is its own feed."
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bret "Ian, that would be unnecessary, since the browser can already detect the hAtom markup in the page and offer to subscribe to it. It would just need to be implemented."
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kylewm ew, we've been using rel=feed to find a user's mf2 h-feed in bridgy
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bret kylewm were you not aware of the overlapp?
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danlyke When did people start using "feed" rather than "alternate" for the "rel=" tag? #getoffmylawn
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bret back in 2006...guess it never took off
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kylewm OK, good, we're using <link rel="feed" type="text/html"
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bret kylewm, type isn't needed for rel=feed any more! :trollolol:
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danlyke Grrr... I feel all RFC822 vs RFC2822 "why did you people screw up a perfectly good thing?" cranky now.
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kylewm bret: yeah if it's not provided, we fetch the URL and see if it's text/html
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danlyke bret & kylewm: Aaargh. Okay, time to change the discovery code to treat no type like application/*+xml...
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bret that sounds reasonable
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@nymnotinservice #webactions: https://indiewebcamp.com/webactions (twitter.com/_/status/514116489800998912)
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kylewm danlyke: hey, have you generated an OPML for /irc-people?
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danlyke No, but I probably could fairly easily... I just spider the page daily, mirror all the users pages, and then try to discover the RSS from those pages.
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danlyke So I could tag the URLs that come from those pages (rather than from my personal OPML file) and SELECT ... WHERE source='irc-people' into an OPML...
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danlyke Would also be a good way to figure out where my discovery code is falling down.
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@argaldo La base de datos como anti-patrón para el almacenamiento de información … http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/514117947120685056)
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tantek Loqi, translate?
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kylewm is "La base de datos" really how you say database?
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bret kylewm: error: exception while processing webmention HTTPConnectionPool(host='localhost', port=4000): Max retries exceeded with url: /2014/09/22/flow-control-libs-li/ (Caused by <class 'ConnectionRefusedError'>: [Errno 111] Connection refused)
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bret oh wait
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bret wrong domain heh
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kylewm bret: oh I used to see errors like that from bridgy looking at my site, lemme know
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danlyke Ugh, it's a little more complex than that, I throw away a lot of data at each point in my pipeline, so getting descriptions and htmlURL values out is a PITA. May get to this later...
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tantek catches up on logs
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KevinMarks__ I wonder if argaldo would like to start a spanish translation nf indiewebcamp
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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KartikPrabhu tantek: re: documenting questions asked yesterday. sure. but I have no idea where to put them.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's almost like you merely asking your questions were debunking assumptions.
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KartikPrabhu seems like i did something right :P
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@WeMustCode database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern?utm_source=dbweekly&utm_medium=email #wemustcodedata (twitter.com/_/status/514125770491719680)
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@imaginationapps database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern?utm_source=dbweekly&utm_medium=email #wemustcodedata (twitter.com/_/status/514125771871617024)
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tantek KartikPrabhu++ for being so awesomely scientific and helping to ask questions to debunk the implied assumptions stated last night.
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 58 karma
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tantek so now people are just tweeting the URL of /database-antipattern without commentary? does that mean they agree? or think it's interesting?
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KartikPrabhu yeah I was going to ask
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KartikPrabhu at least they are not highly upset about it
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tantek checks the hashtag
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KevinMarks___ As it's switched from a polemic to a discussion through editing and feedback, the responses have changed too
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KartikPrabhu tantek: note that it has utm = email . so it is being circulated through email threads
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tantek excellent
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@BillSeitz RT @gRegorLove: @BillSeitz Reply threads are an interesting thing some people are working on. See: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-thread @joeld @davextrem… (twitter.com/_/status/514126537147547648)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: see http://wemustcode.events/ and https://twitter.com/WeMustCode
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tantek there's a .events?
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KartikPrabhu though I don't know about the "pre loading screen" :P
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KartikPrabhu tantek: hey if there is a .club there has to be a .events
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/gRegorLove/514070438473768960/514126537147547648 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-thread (webmention)
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tantek wow: "please wait preload page…"
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tantek seriously?
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KartikPrabhu I thought Web 2.0 was gone and done for
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tantek and the WORKSHOPS SPEAKERS PROGRAM and LOCATION links do nothing for me
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KartikPrabhu wait I'm pre loading again
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KartikPrabhu same here...
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KartikPrabhu single-page-website--
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Loqi single-page-website has -1 karma
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KartikPrabhu hmm that seems wrong
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KartikPrabhu websites can have one page
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tantek wow - how not to code a link: <div class="event-info-nav-button top left"><i class="fa fa-briefcase"></i><a href="#about">Workshops</a></div>
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KartikPrabhu probably a "framework" of som sort
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KartikPrabhu <i> !! lol
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tantek that should be instead: <a href="/workshops">Workshops</a>
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tantek these folks need to attend a workshop on how to code.
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KartikPrabhu maybe they will. it is in 151 days :P
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tantek welcome indie-visitor! use /nick yournamehere to set your nickname :)
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tantek welcome garron! how did you find us?
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garron thanks tantek, been listening to kevin marks going on about the indie web on twig for a couple of months now
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garron thought i should try get involved
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tantek kevinmarks is very good at explaining things
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tantek garron do you have a personal website?
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garron i do, garrongray.com
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KevinMarks__ kinda database antipatterns https://twitter.com/izs/status/514127474557341696
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@izs If running the public @npmjs registry has taught me one thing over the last 5 years, it's NEVER EVER PUT BINARY ATTACHMENTS IN COUCHDB. (twitter.com/_/status/514127474557341696)
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KevinMarks__ Hi Garron
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garron hi
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KartikPrabhu hi garron! have you seen this: http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started#Set_up_your_home_page_and_web_sign-in
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garron been going through it today
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KartikPrabhu since you already have a homepage, you can setup IndieAuth and sign in and edit the wiki
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KartikPrabhu sweet!
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garron i love the principles
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@kevinmarks @timbray if only there was some way you could publish your complaints where anyone can read them and send out a link via twitter #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/514141801800663041)
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GarronGray I'm curious… how many nationalities are represented here?
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KartikPrabhu GarronGray: quite a few I think. US, UK, Germany, France, (I would count as Indian)
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KartikPrabhu we did have a Brazilian person stop by once, but I haven't heard from them in a while
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GarronGray Any other South Africans out there?
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KartikPrabhu hmm yeah where are the Southies? ;)
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KartikPrabhu Southies = Souther Hemisphere-ians
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KartikPrabhu should stop making up words
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kylewm at least one Australian
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KartikPrabhu ahh cool
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parzzix southern us..not hemisphere though.
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: I don't think that is south enough ;)
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GarronGray :)
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KartikPrabhu GarronGray: definitely get more people interested and maybe start a Homebrew Website Club...
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KartikPrabhu see : http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club
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GarronGray So can anyone start a Homebrew Website Club? Is it not a sanctioned thing?
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parzzix is there any other all inclusive system similiar to withknown? I am starting to think customized wordpress is the best option?
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Mark87 so I've finally sorted out my dns issues and i'm ready to set something up on my domain. Only question is, shall I implement it myself from scratch or install something?
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KartikPrabhu GarronGray: no, it isn't some officially signed off thing. You meetup with people who are interested in indieweb principles and work on things together
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parzzix Mark87, I've been having issues with installing known...thought of doing from scratch myself, but all i
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parzzix i'm capable of from scratch would be a simple html page
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: nothing wrong with having a static site
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bret Mark87 making something from scratch is a lot of fun/work
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Mark87 parzzix ahh you're still having problems eh? I didn't see what your problem was from the logs
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bret I do static :D (plus supporting services)
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KartikPrabhu there ^
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Mark87 I wonder how rascul's project is coming
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KartikPrabhu bret: are you a file storage users?
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Mark87 he was working on some sort of static page blog wasn't he
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rascul haven't done much to it lately
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bret KartikPrabhu kind of, I use flat files and git
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parzzix Mark87, ran into mongodb issues
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KartikPrabhu bret: then add yourself here: http://indiewebcamp.com/file-storage
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rascul my desktop has been down and that's where all my real work happens
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KartikPrabhu we are documenting who uses flat files and who uses databases
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rascul i generate a static site from a git repo
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Mark87 parzzix why mongodb and not MySQL?. I believe they suggest MySQL now
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neuro` Ise using a git based blog flat files or database or both?
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neuro` -e
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rascul flat files
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parzzix To be honest, because mongodb doesn't take much setup, known does the work itself. I'm not versed in either.
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KartikPrabhu git uses flat files to store things. so yea flat files
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rascul a git repo is essentially a set of changes to a directory tree
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KartikPrabhu yeah ^
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Mark87 why use git?
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KartikPrabhu version control
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parzzix bret, do flat files take up more or less space compared to a DB?
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neuro` Mark87: version control, because databases have binary logs
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rascul i use git for version control, easily distributed, and git is already part of my normal workflow
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: is that the deciding question?
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bret.io edited /file-storage (+129) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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rascul a database would have more overhead
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Mark87 I understand version control, but how often are you planning on updating each article?
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KartikPrabhu anyone using databases add yourself to the appropriate one following links in http://indiewebcamp.com/database
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Mark87 I suppose it would be very useful for the main index page, but once you've written article, its written
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rascul Mark87 i will put a new post in notes/, add and commit, then there will be a hook to catch the commit and generate my new stuff for me
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bret parzzix no idea, jekyll is weird. probrably a little more. *gasp* a few binary images have snuck their way into git ;)
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parzzix KartikPrabhu, my question to Bret? no not deciding..just curious
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: you can have comments and the article in the same file and each comment is an update :)
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rascul Mark87 i haven't implemented it all yet though
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Mark87 parzzix what was your specific error?
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: ok. I would thing space is cheap. Compared to the head-ache (at least for me) of dealing with a black box database
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu how does that work?
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Mark87 rascul so you're basically using it just for pushing from your local repo to the server?
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bret parzzix I use flat files because thats what I started with before knowing about indieweb stuffs. it should work for me for a while.
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: ok we are hypothesising here. But once you get a webmention, you parse it and append the reply to the main article HTML file, then git commit it
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parzzix [Mon Sep 22 11:38:37.866581 2014] [:error] [pid 1299] [client 137.118.253.179:44444] Known (104.131.33.204): ERROR - Invalid object ID 4, referer: http://104.131.33.204/admin/plugins/
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu ahh that makes more sense.
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KartikPrabhu also same with a comment form
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rascul Mark87 yeah more or less
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rascul when i get the next couple pieces done, publishing to my site will be little more than a 'git push' for me
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KartikPrabhu also git versioning helps save draft versions at least wagtail.io a Django CMS does this
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Mark87 parzzix is that your only error?
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parzzix KartikPrabhu, to be honest I am very inexperienced at most of the web technologies, but I am good at moving aroug linux machines. That is why i use do droplets for everything
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Mark87 parzzix what do your apache logs say?
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rascul parzzix i got known working with nginx and mysql on a debian droplet recently
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parzzix Mark87, that is from my apache log..lol. plugins won't load...wich makes known sort of useless
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: whatever works for you should be what you use. Don't let dogma get in the way of getting things done
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rascul i dunno about plugin stuff though i haven't gotten that far with it yet
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parzzix rascul, that is cool.
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rascul.io edited /file-storage (+123) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add me" (view diff)
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parzzix KartikPrabhu, well whay I know right now is some basic html and css..everything else I do is looking for step by step guides.
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: if you move to wordpress you will be using MySQL anyway, so why not try a MySQL install of Known which seems to be more default now
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: that is how I learnt too. :)
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KartikPrabhu I learnt python to build my website about a year and a half ago :)
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parzzix Well I have my instance still, I guess I could rip mongo out and throw in sql
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KevinMarks Re database antipatterns, this is well worth reading https://backchannel.org/blog/friendfeed-schemaless-mysql
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KevinMarks It's also how known uses mysql
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KartikPrabhu marked to read
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rascul mysql has a csv backend so your db can use flat files ;)
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kylewm I think it's what Reddit does too
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kylewm use SQL like a key value datastore
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu what do u use for bookmarks?
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KartikPrabhu that is like /database-cache no?
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: FF tabs ;)
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KartikPrabhu and tab-groups :P
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KartikPrabhu I want to start posting bookmarks on my site though. Now that Quill has a cool tool for it
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Mark87 what is that?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "that" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=that
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KartikPrabhu what is Quill?
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Loqi Quill is a simple app for posting text notes to your website using micropub http://indiewebcamp.com/Quill
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Mark87 no his tool
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Mark87 oh
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Mark87 I thot it was a person
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KartikPrabhu Quill is by aaronpk, the latter being the person :)
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Mark87 i'm thinking of Quim Gill https://twitter.com/quimgil
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Mark87 brain fart
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KartikPrabhu I also have quite a few "saved items" in my feed reader Feedly
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu do you ever read your saved items?
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KartikPrabhu yup!
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Mark87 those of you using flat files, how do you do style updates or other changes?
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Mark87 I can think of some alternatives, im just wondering what people actually do
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KevinMarks My flat files are in github, so there are diffs there
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KevinMarks I use strikethrough if there is some change that needs showing (ie not typo corrections)
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danlyke kylewm lunch project: I threw a few more things into the database. I'm sure stuff is still broken, but flutterby.com/indieweb/irc-people.opml I'll update it daily, probably around noon. Note that some of those folks are disallowing LWP::Simple spiders, so 403 and no RSS feed.
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barnabywalters Mark87: I store data in the filesystem, and edits/other style updates are done to through or to my application, just as they would be if I was using an opaque database
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barnabywalters Mark87: are you maybe confusing filesystem storage and static sites?
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Mark87 barnabywalters yes
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rascul static sites can use db, dynamic sites can use filesystem storage ;)
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kylewm danlyke++ that is so friggin cool!!
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Loqi danlyke has 3 karma
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barnabywalters I should add that as an FAQ
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: yes!
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Mark87 i mean i know you can make static pages or you can do some custom filesystem storage, i was just thinking in terms of static sites for some reason
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Mark87 barnabywalters what format do you use for storage?
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parzzix ok...can someone tell me how to import the bass sql config that is provided
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parzzix via command line
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parzzix for known that is
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah barnabywalters add yourself as an example to /file-storage
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kylewm parzzix: it's possible that it will do it on its own during the setup
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /database-antipattern (+331) "/* FAQ */ added static hosting FAQ" (view diff)
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kylewm if you move config.ini somewhere else
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barnabywalters Mark87: currently YAML
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parzzix ok kylewm
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rascul parzzix known's first launch will redirect to /warmup where it'll make sure everything is configured for you
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barnabywalters for most of my data at least — my web archive is stored as HTML files in a URL-mimicking folder structure
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barnabywalters and ABC files for sheet music
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@OuiShareLabs RT @JockelLohkamp: Out in the Open: A Blogging Tool That Lets You Actually Own What You Post http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known/ #indieweb #GETDBerlin #… (twitter.com/_/status/514156947290193921)
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tantek interesting discussion re: static site vs. dynamic site, and database storage vs flat file storage
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tantek do we need a 2x2 table of examples ? :)
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jonnybarnes I get an XML parsing error when opening http://www.flutterby.com/indieweb/irc-people.opml in firefox nightly
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parzzix rascul, ok..worked..now using sql... but no plugins, themes, and my profile pic doesn't seem to show up.
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tantek I have both dynamic with file storage (Falcon, 2010-present), and static site with file storage (2002-08..2008.02)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /file-storage (+379) "/* ... add yourself ... */ added myself" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes is flutterby.com danlyke's site?
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rascul parzzix if you switched mongo to mysql you may need to upload profile pic again
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rascul is my guess anyway
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: you used the Known setup to upload profile picture
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KartikPrabhu ?
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parzzix KartikPrabhu, no...but after work I edited my user
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parzzix error follows
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parzzix [Mon Sep 22 17:03:17.139282 2014] [:error] [pid 1145] [client 137.118.253.179:46825] PHP Warning: file_put_contents(/var/www/data/104.131.33.204/1/7/8/f/178fda5426cbb193f51b26f0e55460ce.data): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/html/Idno/Files/LocalFileSystem.php on line 83, referer: http://104.131.33.204/profile/parzzix/edit
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parzzix rascul, it didn't work on mongo either
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rascul oh
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bear which webserver
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jonnybarnes does anyone know what time GMT new firefox nightly's come out?
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jonnybarnes a slightly annoying bug has been fixed today so should be in the next nightly
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bear it varies - the builds are all done at something like 2 or 3 am Pacific time, but then they get bundled and distributed to the servers that send them to clients
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parzzix I made data folder in www like setup said to do...
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bear and that process can take different amounts of time depending on which region your in, how many mirrors are up, etc
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bear parzzix - apache or nginx?
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kylewm apache bear
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parzzix bear, apache
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rascul parzzix did you change the permissions and/or ownership of /var/www/data so that whatever user known is running as can write to it?
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bear make sure your mod_rewrite is enabled
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parzzix rascul, it's set to 777
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bear and that your php5/fpm user has permissions
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rascul 777 is inherently evil, but it should work for that anyway ;)
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danlyke jonnybarnes one of 'em. Flutterby.com is my long-running (Feb 1998) blog. More personal stuff ends up on Flutterby.net
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jonnybarnes danlyke: is http://www.flutterby.com/indieweb/irc-people.opml meant to be viewed in a browser? cos I get an xml parse error
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jonnybarnes bear: hmmm, so Ill have to wait a while yet
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danlyke Thanks. Looks like Perl's XML::OPML module is outputting invalid entities. Sigh.
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bear danlyke - line 31 of your opml has a non-escaped html item &mdash;
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parzzix fixed picture issue
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rascul how did you fix it?
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jonnybarnes im also suffering a seperate bug, a fix for which appears to have been commited into the mozilla-inbound branch, but I have no idea how long that will take to get into nightly
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parzzix permissions were actually 771..i now made it 777
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parzzix i was wrong
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parzzix :)
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rascul ideally you would figure out what user known is running as and set ownership accordingly so you don't have a gaping hole in your filesystem :)
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jonnybarnes rascul you beat me to it
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bear jonnybarnes - yea, that is very hard to guess when -inbound makes it onto a release train
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rascul ideally it would also be a separate user from www-data, but i'm not sure how to do that sorta thing with apache
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jonnybarnes bear, but it makes nightly quite unusable, so hopefully itll get in quickly: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1070038
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rascul jonnybarnes eww that looks like a bad one
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bear ouch - that is a messy one
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bear yea, I bet that gets cherry-picked into the release quickly
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jonnybarnes I love the first developers comment "Uhhh thats bad..."
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danlyke bear jonnybarnes thanks, I "fixed" it (XML::OPML shouldn't have done that to begin with, and I'm sure there are deeper bugs lurking...)
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bear danlyke - in my experience you will almost always have to have a "ok, so I need to check for *this* and *that* bug after some XML lib is done generating XML"
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bear every single rss, atom, opml generating tool or process has had to do some type of post-processing sanity check
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bear s/process/process i've worked with/
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Loqi bear meant to say: every single rss, atom, opml generating tool or process i've worked with has had to do some type of post-process i've worked withing sanity check
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danlyke bear, yeah, I whine about how you shouldn't use a parser to parse XML, you should use regexes, because XML is never conforming, and yet didn't check my output. Sigh.
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parzzix now time to make plugins work
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danlyke bear, something something eating dogfood something
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bear danlyke - I think you have that swapped - you should always use a strict parser to consume the xml you generate
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bear otherwise you leave yourself open to madness
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rascul danlyke your regex comment reminds me of this http://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454
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danlyke bear, yes, I should use a strict parser to parse the XML I generate, but regexes to consume the ones others generate...
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bear that is a classic answer, I don't even have to click it to know what that one is ;)
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bear danlyke - I use a parser for that also - but not in strict mode
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danlyke rascul, bear: Yep, saw that one coming. Unfortunately, the Lovecraft limit was already exceeded by "parse XML", regexes didn't actually contribute to the lack of sanity all that much...
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bear :)
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: congrats on Known working :)
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danlyke Some day I'll go back and look at the code I once wrote to do strictly conforming YADIS discovery (and try to help people discover why their YADIS wasn't strictly conforming)... the niggling details of namespacing in that still burn in my soul.
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: maybe you should post about your installing experience and document the problems you found. benwerd and erinjo would find that useful for the future
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bear makes warding signs at the mention of YADIS
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danlyke Also, if anyone's actually using that OPML we should probably figure out how to put better markup on the irc-people page and help people fix their markup on their own personal pages, rather than making the indieweb dependent on yet another server...
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tantek despite all the XML-insanity, I'm still keeping my storage files and index.html template as XML-valid and using PHP DOMDocument to load them.
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tantek (they're XML-valid HTML5, to be clear)
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tantek (not XHTML)
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tantek danlyke, indeed. ideally all you would need is a list of URLs, from which you would go get people's representative h-card with name, nickname, photo/logo.
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danlyke tantek, you are a brave man... I store all of my templates as a combination of markdown and HTML that works in my own parser, and try to output XHTML, but I haven't checked recently to see if I actually still do.
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rascul tantek interesting, i didn't realize html5 could be valid xml
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tantek rascul - have I got a blog post for you ;)
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tantek here you go: http://tantek.com/2010/302/b1/xhtml-dead-long-live-xml-valid-html5
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rascul clicks
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bear html5 as valid xml is the biggest reason I stopped ranting about html ;)
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danlyke rascul, as long as you define any entities beyond the sacred 5, or use numeric equivalents, it's just a matter of closing empty tags...
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rascul is xml-valid html5 still valid html5?
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parzzix KartikPrabhu, I may, but I want to have things fully functional...still don't have any plugins working.
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tantek rascul, it can be
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rascul tantek i will read that shortly
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: yes. I meant after you finish installing :)
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danlyke rascul, should be. Despite how much I rag on XML, in its simplified form it's really usually easier to parse than the HTML progenitor, SGML.
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rascul most of my experience with xml is from config files
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rascul i absolutely hate xml config files
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rascul stares fiercely at openbox
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danlyke rascul: agreed!
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bear as an ops person I think I can safely say I hate *all* config files - regardless of their format ;)
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rascul i'm having difficulty thinking of a piece of software i enjoy configuring via files
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danlyke bear, at least config files suck less than GUI configuration... but all configuration sucks.
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bear good point danlyke
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rascul danlyke i generally agree, but for some things gui seems better to me
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bear thinks we've strayed a bit off topic :)
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rascul oops
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bear no worries - just catching it before we ramble on too much
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danlyke saved for posterity in the logs...
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danlyke So tantek, re those URLs pointing to an h-card, I know I saw a "get me started on indieweb" page that got step 1, is there a "given a URL, recommendations for next steps" tool?
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tantek danlyke indiewebify.me has a decent step by step test-your-URL here approach
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@kragen http://identity.mozilla.com/post/78873831485/transitioning-persona-to-community-ownership I didn't realize Persona had died in March. A sad end to what could have been a crucial piece of the #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/514165963743571968)
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tantek Frankly I think community ownership has been a very good thing for Persona - a chance for it to grow and evolve at a reasonable pace without any particular product-ship-time agenda.
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danlyke tantek, thanks, I think I may have to write up a "here's how I'd find that resource more helpful" doc.
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parzzix rascul, are plugins working on your known?
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tantek danlyke - go ahead and file github issues on indiewebify suggesting improvements! https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues
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rascul parzzix haven't tried yet
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tantek it can definitely use plenty of improvement :)
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danlyke tantek, sweet! Thanks.
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bear parzzix - are you using the latest known zip file? 0.6.1
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parzzix bear, 0.6.2 which is latest posted on the site.
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tantek danlyke - also check out the prose approach (rather than "test your URL" approach) https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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bear cool - just checking - I know ben mentioned that some plugin bugs were fixed with the latest
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parzzix bear, right now, I have 0 plugins...I would at least like to have the twitter one going :(
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danlyke Ugh. Need to change my Markdown-ish parser to put classes in paragraphs. Somehow.
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tantek danlyke - what version of Markdown do you use?
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KartikPrabhu or flavour^
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danlyke tantek, It's the evolution of a parser I wrote back in late '97 or early '98. A mix of "things that look good in email", embedded HTML (for a limited number of tags and attributes that are legal inside paragraphs), and MediaWiki (because at some point I moved an MW site over to it)
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danlyke Yes, I do have some serious NIH issues...
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parzzix rel-me links don't seem to be working either...I guess I will put up a static page also..until I get this working fully..lol
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tantek whoa! Markdown+MediaWiki in the same parser! so that actually sounds pretty sweet ;)
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tantek I mean, impressive at the least.
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danlyke well, I migrated away from the [url link text] format, but the [[Topic]] and [[Topic|link text]] is just another subdivision inside text before it gets passed to the entity decoder.
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danlyke flutterby.com uses the Perl version for pretty much everything, including cleaning end-user input, Flutterby.net uses the C++ version to build the Wiki site from static text files stored in git.
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danlyke but early on I was writing a lot of email with _some text here_ (http://thepage/) so started there, and it's just grown since.
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danlyke (In fact, HotWired was using it for a while. Remember HotWired?)
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danlyke jerks himself out of the nostalgia trip, like waking from a dream
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tantek totally remember HotWired. And HotBot even.
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parzzix Hey guys, to start just a plain static page..should i go with lemp or lamp..need to start a new instance for it..or any other suggestion.
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tantek what is lemp?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "lemp" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=lemp
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tantek whats is lamp?
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parzzix tantek, basically apache or nginx stack
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tantek oh oops I mistyped
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tantek what is lamp?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "lamp" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=lamp
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kylewm parzzix: you need the Solo theme for re-me links to work
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danlyke parzzix... I was trying to figure out "lemp", and was coming up with Elemenope for the server. Makes me afraid...
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tantek.com created /lamp (+18) "r" (view diff)
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parzzix kylewm, I cant choose themes....stuck with default
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parzzix kylewm, themes and plugins still don't load
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kylewm the E in LEMP stands for nginx
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kylewm makes perfect sense
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tantek.com created /LAMP (+407) "stub with dfn, see also, other variants in use by indieweb folks" (view diff)
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danlyke Kind of the same way SSL stands for Transport Layer Security and RSS stands for Atom. (h/t @mojinations)
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tantek danlyke++ LOL!
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Loqi danlyke has 4 karma
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parzzix kylewm, yeah..the lemp thing had my confused for awhile..couldn't figure out where nginx was coming from..until I learned it was pronounced enginex
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tantek but if I don't use MySQL, am I still on LAMP? or LAP? or something else to replace the M?
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danlyke I think the judges will allow MongoDB for MySQL. After all, neither of them is really a database...
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tantek how about FLAP? File Linux Apache PHP
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tantek s/File/Flatfiles
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Loqi tantek meant to say: how about FLAP? Flatfiles Linux Apache PHP
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tantek as in, my site runs on the FLAP stack
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tantek any other /file-storage folks want to chime in?
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bret LOL
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kylewm tries desperately to figure out LARP
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danlyke I'm headed towards LigHTTPD and static files, myself, with C++ static generation and a few CGI. Though in practice I'm finding it hard to get away from Apache and Perl...
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bret is there a round storage system?
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kylewm tantek: I thought you used lighty too?
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tantek kylewm, easy, you just need a database with an R-name
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tantek What is Litespeed?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Litespeed" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Litespeed
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tantek.com edited /LAMP (+121) "MongoDB is ok for M as well, iterate common exceptions" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: http://www.litespeedtech.com/ claims LiteSpeed is a "High performance Apache drop-in replacement" so is it worth making a distinction?
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tantek.com created /Litespeed (+23) "r to camelcase" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: ah no probably not, I was thinking http://www.lighttpd.net/
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tantek oh yeah that's different
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kylewm didn't realize there was a difference
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tantek anyone here use lighttpd?
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Mark87 I'm going to start using SSL on my server, but I need a certificate. I started going through the process at startssl, but I need an email address using my domain to finish it, and I don't want to pay hover.com extra for an email forward, nor do i know of any email providers i can use for my dns mx records. Any ideas?
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tantek.com created /LiteSpeed (+171) "stub with link, dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /litespeed (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek Mark87 did you check indiewebcamp.com/https for suggestions?
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danlyke Mark87, I think Google Apps for Domains is still free if you have < 10 email addresses.
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danlyke I signed up back when it gave you 50, and use it. Yes, it sucks for all the reasons we shouldn't be giving Google everything about our lives, but it's so convenient I'm willing to overlook the econtrol and privacy issues...
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Mark87 hmmm
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tantek what is lamp?
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Loqi LAMP is a acronym for Linux Apache MySQL (or MongoDB) and one or more of Perl PHP and/or Python http://indiewebcamp.com/lamp
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tantek what is lemp?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "lemp" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=lemp
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tantek alright I'll let one of you /nginx users start the /lemp page
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bret danlyke they canceled the free google apps :(
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bret AFTER i losy my old domains... and i couldn't transfer :(
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danlyke bret: boo! I guess too many people like me using it for POP only email...
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danlyke bret, for a single account... https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/google-appengine/pVZfdeky-ow/TO1SmipM2Y0J
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KartikPrabhu parzzix: what is your KNown URL?
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danlyke bret, but I think StartSSL wants a couple of other ...@yourdomain email addresses too...
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tantek rascul, btw on XML valid HTML5, my home page is both valid HTML5: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A//tantek.com/ and XML valid: http://schneegans.de/xp/?ct=application/xml&url=http%3A//tantek.com/
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tantek I used the W3C HTML validator and application/xml proxy favelets on favelets.com to quickly check both of those. http://favelets.com/
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bret danlyke, is that like a work around?
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bret hrmm...
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bret i dunno, the only reason i would use it would be for push gmail to an iphone. otherwise, I would rather just advertise that I use gmail
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parzzix KartikPrabhu, timapple.me
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KartikPrabhu sucks that you didn't get Known working completely
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parzzix I know...making a static now with rel=me links so I can log into indiewebcamp..
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rascul tantek nice
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danlyke Looks like Ben has a bit todo on Known. My install of it is in weird limbo...
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tantek rascul, also note, I kind of bother with that level of valid-ness as someone involved in web standards. I wouldn't expect nor recommend that anyone else bother with that level of validity craziness.
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KartikPrabhu danlyke: please document the trouble you are having and file a bug report or something.
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rascul i'm happy with valid html5 :)
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danlyke KartikPrabhu, got a twitter conversation going with @benwerd. If he hasn't got it figured by the next time that pops up on my "to muck with it" stack I'll start filing bugs.
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parzzix Got my super advanced static page up at timapple.com ...lol
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Mark87 parzzix++
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Loqi parzzix has 2 karma
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bret woop parzzix++
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bret parzzix re your questions about git. I mostly go in a linear history when making posts, but git lets me branch features that I am working on. It also helps keep track of any files that have changed, reproducable copies on all my computers, lots of free hosting online for the content etc..
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KartikPrabhu parzzix++ for static homepage
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Loqi parzzix has 3 karma
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bear my static site is in git but inside of a /content folder and then a script generates the /output folder and copies it to the server
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parzzix Look at me riding the Karma train :)
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bear (actually a Makefile)
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bear doing that allows me to keep the stuff that requires templates and the like from static content like images
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parzzix bret, whats your url..I would like to check your site out.
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bear parzzix - most of us are listed in IRC-people
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bear what is irc-people
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bret parzzix, please excuse the broken: http://bret.io
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC_People
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bret just subbed to the bearlog
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Mark87 bret i'm looking at your atom feed. how do you generate your titles?
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bret lol badly
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bear bret++
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Loqi bret has 27 karma
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Mark87 haha indeed
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bear I need to finish my micropub work so I can post more often
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KevinMarks So if you use rails is it LAMR?
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bret Mark87 I need to fix a lot of shit on my site. been working on implementing other more interesting features like micropub.
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bear KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 59 karma
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parzzix So should I be adding myself to ircpeople??
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Mark87 bret i'm just asking because i added you to my rss reader and i noticed your titles
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bret Mark87, i'll fix it. ty for reminding me :)
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KevinMarks My site is Heroku Amazon Node Github - HANG
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Mark87 KevinMarks we need an app where you enter the technologies you're using and it spits out interesting acronyms
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rascul KevinMarks erlang would make it LAME
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bret we have http://fatberg.org ;)
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Mark87 bret lol
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bret Mark87, I mess around with my posting templates, and then dont have time/forget to update the atom feed. I need to make it so the atom feed is generated using the same templates as the html page
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jonnybarnes any PHP gurus here?
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bret quite a few
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bret not nessisarily around
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jonnybarnes I've fixed a bug in my code, but only if the following is true would I know why: https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/3K
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Mark87 static methods don't require an instance of an object
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jonnybarnes so the object's __construct wouldnt get called?
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Mark87 i'm not a guru, but so far as i know the only time __construct is called is when you call new SomeOBject()
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Mark87 or call it directly
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bret do people use mysql workbench?
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bret or are there better tools for db inspection?
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Mark87 bret I've used it, but ive always preferred phpmyadmin so I could work from anywhere
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Mark87 of course im not working on professional or huge projects
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bret this is for local dev work
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Mark87 although today I got fed up with phpmyadmin because its a huge behemoth a program that installed junk all over my filesystem. I found Adminer which does almost all the same stuff but is one php file
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Mark87 so far I like it
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bear I use mysql workbench as it is from mysql so it can be used to explore the insides of mysql that most devs don't need to see
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KevinMarks The point of static variables/methods is that they're shared by all instances, right?
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KevinMarks So they are pre-initialiased before you make any instances
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tantek returns and notices a ton of language discussion.
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tantek what is phpmyadmin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "phpmyadmin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=phpmyadmin
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bret what is mysql workbench?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mysql workbench" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mysql+workbench
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bret.io created /mysql_workbench (+115) "Created page with "{{ stub }} <dfn>MySQL Workbench</dnf> is a GUI application used to inspect and perform actions on MySQL databases."" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /mysql_workbench (+0) "fixed tag" (view diff)
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bret what is mysql workbench?
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Loqi MySQL Workbench is a GUI application used to inspect and perform actions on MySQL databases http://indiewebcamp.com/mysql_workbench
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bret.io created /phpmyadmin (+110) "Created page with "<dfn>phpmyadmin</dfn> is a web application that can be used to inspect and perform actions on mysql databases."" (view diff)
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mowens.com edited /Indie.js (+59) "/* indie-entries */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indie (+72) "Indiejs indiemark indiewebify" (view diff)
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tantek indie all the things!
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tantek what is indie?
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Loqi indie is short for “independent” and “independence” and is often used as a prefix to describe independent things or things designed for independents, such as indie rock, games, films, and of course, IndieWebCamp itself http://indiewebcamp.com/indie
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mko Lol. Nice.
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mowens.com edited /Indie.js (+49) "/* indie-publisher */" (view diff)
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bret what is ind.ie?
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Loqi ind.ie is a website created by Aral Balkan for the Indie Tech Manifesto http://indiewebcamp.com/ind.ie
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mowens.com edited /Indie.js (+36) "/* IndieMark */" (view diff)
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu do you have a global atom/rss feed with your notes and articles, etc all in it?
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: no my RSS/Atom is for articles only so far. And it is a bad one having all articles in it instead of first few or something
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks___ can unmung do h-feed -> Atom?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: pretty sure you're looking for mung in that direction ;)
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tantek I think barnabywalters has a tool for that
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KartikPrabhu eh yes :)
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Mark87 I should just add phpmf2 to my parsing library
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Mark87 algorithm*
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Loqi it is probable
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KevinMarks No, that is a separate problem
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: that would give you microformats, not Atom just so you know
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: oh ok
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KevinMarks Though adding h-feed parsing to universal feed parser sounds like a good project
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bret Mark87 a tool to be aware of: https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu I know, I have a custom atom/rss reader. I'll add phpmf2 to it so I can follow non/atom feeds
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bret you can subscribe through that
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KevinMarks Also at some point we should check that feeds round trip through them both
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Mark87 bret thanks, I should probably do it myself though since I can and not use up his cpu/bandwidth
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bret you can use his till you do yours :)
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Mark87 bret true
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bret barnaby said it was okay iirc
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KevinMarks Unmung is a feed reader of sorts
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KevinMarks It's actually really handy for podcasts
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu++ for using lots of images in your articles
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 59 karma
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KartikPrabhu :D
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Mark87 what is unmung
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Loqi Unmung is a service that turns legacy feeds into h-feeds http://indiewebcamp.com/unmung
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Mark87 very cool
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KevinMarks I need to add feed discovery to it at some point
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kylewm KevinMarks: what's the block of JSON at the bottom of an unmunged feed?
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tantek KevinMarks: for what use case?
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: nice use of u-audio for podcasts :)
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KevinMarks If you check the show raw box that's the output of universal feed parser
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KevinMarks Which I left in for debugging
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Mark87 KevinMarks what parser do you use?
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KevinMarks For people putting in urls of sites that aren't feeds
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KevinMarks I use Universal Feed Parser, the python one
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KevinMarks Which is spectacularly comprehensive
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KevinMarks Hm, looks like I have the check box wrong
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tantek KevinMarks what's an example of a site that isn't a feed that you mean?
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KevinMarks I suppose it's the podcast case I'm thinking of there
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KevinMarks__ hm, did I not make that checkbox do anything? I must have been really tired and dreamt I made it work.
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KevinMarks__ OK, fixed the 'show raw' checkbox so you don't get json cruft at the end by default
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KevinMarks__ hm, looks like tantek's feed is causing me trouble too ;)
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KevinMarks__ http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2Fupdates.atom
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tantek what trouble?
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KevinMarks__ look at the title of your 3rd post
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KevinMarks__ I should pass that through without escaping?
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Loqi it is probable
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GWG Anyone up for helping me brainstorm?
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KevinMarks__ then you'll get <h3><h1 etc>
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KevinMarks__ sure storm away
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GWG On my site, I have notes and articles. I have replies, reposts, bookmarks, etc.
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GWG I'm trying to decide if I should exclude any from the front page
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bret I like full content personally
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bret I find separated feeds dificult to navigate
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KevinMarks__ Known has checkboxes for that - it gets a bit confusing
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kylewm you don't really want to see someone else's bookmarks though do you?
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KevinMarks__ Known defaults some off, which means that you don't see, for eg RSVPs
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GWG bret: But full content doesn't have to be on the front page
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GWG I could do all as a secondary view
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bret true, especially if you post a lot of contex heavy posts
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GWG So, what do people want to see when visiting?
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GWG The Notes?
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GWG The Articles?
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danlyke Yeah, I've been thinking about identity and such, but I keep the status update feed (ie:the things that go to Twitter and Facebook, short-form snark) separate from the blog posts (links & rants)
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GWG The Replies?
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GWG I've been wondering about this
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bret GWG what do you want people to see?
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GWG bret: I don't think anyone comes
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GWG So it may be a moot point
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bret you have lots of back fed comments though, so you are reaching people
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GWG bret: But not on my articles. Usually on my random notes
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kylewm i want to see { notes, articles, replies, reposts } on the front page
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kylewm { bookmarks, likes } somewhere else (or not at all, a la snarfed)
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tantek we have a page about composite streams I'm pretty sure which discusses a bunch of this
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tantek KevinMarks - title looks fine - what am I missing?