#indiewebcamp 2014-09-23

2014-09-23 UTC
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tantek GWG, bret, see (and add to) http://indiewebcamp.com/composite_stream
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GWG tantek: I was already looking at it
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techlifeweb GWG: I've been thinking about these things too
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GWG tantek: But there isn't a discussion there
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GWG There could be
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tantek GWG - there doesn't need to be. There's a list of IndieWeb Examples noting who does what combination
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tantek consider that real world "discussion" by demonstration. showing not telling.
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GWG tantek: I'm trying to crystallize in my mind. I may add to the page.
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KartikPrabhu1 is Paul Tibbetts https://selfstarter.pt on the channel?
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GWG techlifeweb: How are things going?
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tantek GWG definitely! add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/composite_stream#IndieWeb_Interest
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Mark87 @tantek if you notice, on KevinMarks link the third title is larger than the rest because an h1 is embedded under the h3 that unmung prints the title in
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techlifeweb GWG: Going well
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tantek KartikPrabhu1: did you try a reverse lookup on /irc-people ?
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KartikPrabhu hmm looking
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tantek Mark87 - well that's interesting. I wonder how that happened.
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bret.io edited /composite_stream (+136) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Added my" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu nope not on irc-people but is indiewebifying his wordpress: https://selfstarter.pt/adventures-indiewebifying-wordpress-part-1/
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kylewm.com edited /composite_stream (+137) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add me" (view diff)
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tantek That's a lot of composite streams. Perhaps we should add it to something in IndieMark.
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techlifeweb GWG: I'm currently hiding likes and replies from general view (unless you have the URL) and from my feed. Should I? Not sure. I think Likes look kind of odd should someone just stop by my site. However, seeing what I "like" might be a form of discovery for finding cool stuff.
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GWG Well, I wonder what a page of likes should look like.
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bret likes vs bookmarks confuses me
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bret its nice to !m people when they do cool stuff
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GWG bret: That is something I debated with acegiak
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tantek what does a page of likes look like on FB? On Instagram?
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tantek what does a page of favorites look like on Twitter? on Flickr?
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techlifeweb Brett: They serve both purposes.
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KevinMarks__ tantek - your post title in the atom feed parses out as <h1 class="p-name entry-title">\nIndieWebCampUK 2014 Hack Day Demos: HTTPS, #webactions, new &amp; improved #indieweb sites\n</h1>
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techlifeweb Like someone gets their Known site up and running I might send them a like as a kind of high five but then I have a link to their site for future reference
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tantek KevinMarks__: pretty sure I have that embedded in a div of type xhtml
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GWG Well, I know that the debate about Favorite vs Like came to the difference between a thing and some writing.
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KevinMarks__ I had autoescape on for <title>, so it showed up like that
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GWG So scope was a factor.
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KevinMarks__ when I turn it off, I get the <h3><h1> thing and the extra classes
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KevinMarks__ yes your feed says <title type="xhtml"> <div xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> <h1 class="p-name entry-title"> IndieWebCampUK 2014 Hack Day Demos: HTTPS, #webactions, new &amp; improved #indieweb sites </h1> </div> </title>
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KevinMarks__ UFP then strips the div but keeps the <h1> and I end up with nested classes
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tantek ok that's probably my bad
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KevinMarks__ so will get a less-than ideal h-feed from it
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Mark87 KevinMarks @tantek I'm looking at the atom spec and I don't understand why that's allowed? If you have type="xhtml" you can stick an extra div under the title? Whats the point?
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tantek Mark87 I used to be much more into XHTML. It's now just one form of legacy embedded in another.
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KevinMarks__ tantek may be the only person generating feeds in this particular way
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KevinMarks__ it used to make Google Reader confused too
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GWG KevinMarks__: Regrettably, we don't have that problem anymore
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tantek yeah I think I kept it just to make the Google Reader folks fix it. Showed them!
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Mark87 lol
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tantek since they claimed to "fully support Atom" - I figured ok, they should fix it.
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techlifeweb commute time. see you later.
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+1084) "add an inbox of more antipattern pages to create: plumging-first, single-page, preload, cargo-cult" (view diff)
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bret not all one page sites are bad <3 talky.io
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KevinMarks__ hm, barnaby's mf to atom thing doesn't like tantek.com
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KartikPrabhu lol
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KevinMarks__ round-tripping: http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2Fservices%2Fmicroformats-to-atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fepeus.blogspot.com
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Mark87 i fixed my parser to deal with it
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Mark87 just dumped textContent
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tantek bret talky.io isn't a one page site - it has one page per video conference channel :)
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bear it actually is a SPA - but the url space is *very* limited so it's not noticeable
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bret single page sites have their purpose. like dynamic interfaces that benafit from that
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bret and that dont need much permalinking
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KevinMarks__ like feed.unmung.com :D
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tantek not a one-page site - it changes the URL
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tantek and not using JS :D
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tantek and all the content is in the view source
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tantek already have all those caveats in the summary!
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KevinMarks__ also - fragmention for feeds: http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.wnyc.org%2Fonthemedia##explicit+language
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tantek KevinMarks__: reload http://feed.unmung.com/feed?feed=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2Fupdates.atom
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KevinMarks__ lgtm
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tantek barnaby's tool still doesn't like my home page: https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F
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Mark87 it appears to be crashing
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Mark87 oh no nvm
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Mark87 tabs threw me off
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KevinMarks__ so should I be escaping <title> or not?
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tantek not if it comes in claiming to be <div type=xhtml>
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tantek or whatever
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tantek because that's the point - shouldn't have to escape!
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tantek actual properly nested markup
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bret dietrich++
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Loqi dietrich has 7 karma
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Mark87 what aggregators do people use for reading indie feeds?
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tantek checkout /shrewdness
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Mark87 do people actually use that. i thought it was more of a test environment
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kylewm Mark87: yes, but it is currently taxing barnaby's fiduciary resources
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kylewm (I think he is having to pay superfeedr for the polling service)
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Mark87 right
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Mark87 100k posts adds up fast
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Mark87 the free tier
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Mark87 that's just one pane with a bunch of other stuff that's not relevant to actually reading
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kylewm apologizes for using fiduciary incorrectly
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kylewm Mark87: I don't think I helped him out by subscribing to indiewebcamp.com/irc/today
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Mark87 haha, that is probably bad
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Mark87 so you don't use feedly or inoreader or anything
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Mark87 because we're wanting to use microformats, and they don't use microformats, right?
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tantek what is feedly?
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tantek what is inoreader?
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Loqi feedly is a server-based feed aggregator and reader http://indiewebcamp.com/feedly
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "inoreader" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=inoreader
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Mark87 what is Bloglovin?
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Loqi Bloglovin is a web-based feed reader http://indiewebcamp.com/Bloglovin
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kylewm !tell barnabywalters I'm not using my shrewdness subscriptions to the irc log or to twitter lists anymore if you want to remove them, save on some polling :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm what is feedbin?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/feedbin
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kylewm is there a name for urls like https://kylewm.com/new/reply?url=%s ?
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kylewm "intent urls" or somesuch?
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Mark87 what is intent urls?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "intent urls" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=intent+urls
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tantek web action handlers
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Mark87 what is web action handler?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web action handler" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=web+action+handler
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kylewm tantek++ ty
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Loqi tantek has 82 karma
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kylewm what are webactions?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions
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tantek.com created /web_action_handler (+33) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /feedbin (+161) "added me as a user" (view diff)
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kylewm What is webaction hero toolbelt?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "webaction hero toolbelt" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=webaction+hero+toolbelt
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tantek.com edited /Web_Action_URL_APIs (+156) "dfn AKA web action handlers" (view diff)
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kylewm congratulations to heroku for overriding my muscle memory when typing "hero"
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tantek.com edited /Web_Action_URL_APIs (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /intent_urls (+33) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /webactions (+1) "trying to satisfy Loqi's dfn regex" (view diff)
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kylewm what are webactions?
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Loqi A web action is the interface and user experience of taking a specific discrete action, across the web, from one site to another site or application http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions
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tantek.com created /webaction_hero_toolbelt (+50) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /feedbin (+14) "add <dfn> tag" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /Feedbin (+21) "Redirected page to [[feedbin]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /feedbin (+9) "oops, web action handler, not webaction" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Web_Action_URL_APIs (+14) "/* Silo Endpoints */ clean up content vs. headlines, add headline for Readability, reduce list levels" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Web_Action_URL_APIs (+44) "/* Web */ subheads for indies" (view diff)
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bret kylewm have you written about webactions from feedbin anywhere?
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bret I want!
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tantek shrewdness has webactions
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kylewm tantek: does it? I have seen only micropub comments
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kylewm bret: just discovered it today, I will definitely write it up!
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kylewm (I mean, I jsut discovered feedbin today :) )
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bret i was wanting to turn my feedbin stars into wm likes
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KartikPrabhu Mark87: I use feedly, but of course it doesn't do mf2
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KartikPrabhu but most sites I read don't use mf2 either :P
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bret but maybe a custom action would be better
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tantek kylewm: yes barnaby added do=reply during IWC UK
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tantek with full support of the indie-config style registered web action handlers
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bret would be really great to get one of the "bigger" comercial readers to parse h-feed directly
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tantek what are commercial readers?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "commercial readers" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=commercial+readers
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bret feedbin, newsblur, theoldreader etc
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bret paid services
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bret pretty neich, but they are sustainable aparently
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tantek make that page and add them as a list! ^^^
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GWG What about tt-rss, which I run?
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kylewm interesting! i don't see <indie-action> nor <action> tags on mine, must be because i am signed in with micropub
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tantek whats is newsblur?
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tantek what is newsblur?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "newsblur" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=newsblur
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tantek what is theoldreader?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "theoldreader" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=theoldreader
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GWG I'd suggest it get Indieweb actions, but the developer is a real jerk
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tantek what is tt-rss?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "tt-rss" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=tt-rss
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kylewm GWG: yeah I was just going to say, if you want any tt-rss features you're going to have to add them yourself
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kylewm that guy does not like people :)
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GWG kylewm: I know
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bret.io created /newsblur (+182) "Created page with "{{stub }} <dfn>[http://www.newsblur.com Newsblur]</dfn> is a traditional feed reader that aimed to replicate and replace [[Google Reader]]. == People Using Newsblur == * {{ bre..."" (view diff)
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bret what is reeder
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Reeder
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bret.io created /tt-rss (+186) "Created page with "{{ stub }} <dfn>[http://tt-rss.org/redmine/projects/tt-rss/wiki tt-rss]</dfn> is a traditional [[Google Reader]] style feed reader that you have to self host. == People using t..."" (view diff)
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bret lol kylewm GWG personal expderience?
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bret experience*
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GWG bret: Yes.
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bret what is fever?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "fever" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=fever
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kylewm what's the state of PuSH for h-feed? theoretically solved?
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kylewm I guess barnaby said that shrewdness subscribes to push notifications for h-feeds, not sure if anyone sends them yet
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bret.io created /fever (+680) "Created page with "{{ stub }} <dfn>[http://feedafever.com fever]</dfn> is a propriety, single user, self-hosted, traditional [[Google reader]] style feed reader that costs a one time fee of $30 a..."" (view diff)
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bret what is fever?
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Loqi fever is a propriety, single user, self-hosted, traditional Google reader style feed reader that costs a one time fee of $30 and only works on a single domain due to built in DRM and is written in php http://indiewebcamp.com/fever
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bret kylewm not sure how to ping an h-feed update
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bret or even specify
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bret PuSH has to be one of the most challenging things to debug. Need better tools for it
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KartikPrabhu what is push?
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Loqi PubSubHubbub (PuSH) is a notification-based protocol for publishing and subscribing to feeds/streams in real time http://indiewebcamp.com/PuSH
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KartikPrabhu ewww pretty bad full name there ^
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bret Brad Fitzpatric hapily takes the blame aparently :)
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bret memcached, pubsubhubbub, camlistore...
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tantek well at least it's all just plumbing
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kylewm he did PuSH too? wow
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bret kylewm best video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5kHx0rGkec
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@parzzix anyone been using @Mailinabox ? Wondering what your experience has been? #linux #email #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/514243257807560705)
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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GWG Good evening, tantek
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neuro` Hello
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kylewm.com edited /HTTPS (+102) "/* Level 4 security */ mention camo https image proxy used by GitHub" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /HTTPS (+208) "/* Posts about HTTPS */ added link to post by annevk" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm just one? I think I saw four
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kylewm up to five now, should I link all of them?
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tantek sure! maybe with (2, 3, 4, 5)
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tantek where the numbers are all linked like [https://annevankesteren.nl/2014/09/tls-startssl 2], [https://annevankesteren.nl/2014/09/tls-dreamhost 3] etc.
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tantek https://annevankesteren.nl/2014/09/tls-hsts
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tantek https://annevankesteren.nl/2014/09/tls-next-steps
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tantek thanks for adding them!
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tantek closes a few more tabs
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kylewm.com edited /HTTPS (+287) "/* Posts about HTTPS */ add links to all annevk's posts" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /SWAT0 (+17) "/* Brainstorming */ fix who is subscribed to whom to match original" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /SWAT0 (+883) "Describe how indieweb passes SWAT0 now" (view diff)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: good news, the ruby thing is called "Bundler" rather than "Bundle" not that you were worried
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KartikPrabhu :)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bear cool - I have a basic indie-auth login for indie-stats.com which will let people flag their domain for excluding
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bear spies folks looking at his new ugly code
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@mattchamlee #indieweb and Syndicating Yourself (POSSE) http://mattchamlee.withknown.com/2014/indieweb-and-syndicating-yourself-posse (twitter.com/_/status/514318505022201857)
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Loqi [mention] http://mattchamlee.withknown.com/2014/indieweb-and-syndicating-yourself-posse linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (webmention)
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (-53) "update featues to show indieauth login and claiming" (view diff)
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bear yep - it's ugly as sin, but since I'm not a front-end coder i'm kinda happy that you can now visit https://indie-stats.com/domain and then login to claim/exclude your domain from processing
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petermolnar good morning
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bear morning petermolnar
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petermolnar does anyone have any experience with Grav? http://getgrav.org
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bear wow - that looks amazing
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petermolnar it seems like a nice, flat-file project, but no one seem to touch it with indieweb stuff yet
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KevinMarks_ Markdown and YAML, together at last
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bear oh poo - it's php
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+157) (view diff)
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bear.im edited /indie-stats (+67) "/* Routes */" (view diff)
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petermolnar PHP is fine for this, PHP-FPM with nginx is extremely powerful
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bear nods
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bear that was just me realizing it is php and I don't code in php at all
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bear so it would be of little interest for me personally
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petermolnar if you know C, it will not be an issue :)
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KartikPrabhu bear: I just logged in and it says "Logged in as bear.im" in the footre
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bear wah?
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KartikPrabhu i mean on the indie-stats
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bear oh I know - i'm wondering what test config I forgot to clear
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bear what happens if you visit /logout ?
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bear oh poo - I found it
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bear KartikPrabhu - if I could impose upon you to test that?
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KartikPrabhu on it
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bear looked better that time
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KartikPrabhu yup! correct! now if only there was a link next to it for "logout" ;)
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bear next to what?
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bear oh, in the footer text?
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petermolnar !tell tantek I've spent 4+ hours yesterday trying to fix a MySQL replication; I'm jumping on the antipattern bandwagon, but it will take a loooong time.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bear ok, added "Logout" to the footer if authed
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bear realizes it is almost 0500 and falls into bed
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bear KartikPrabhu++ for finding that bug
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 60 karma
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acegiak pfefferle: I'm having fun using custom css to see how far I can push sempress for emily's website which is primarily a portfolio site: http://blackwoolholiday.com/
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pfefferle acegiak oh, nice!
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pfefferle acegiak what about creating a child theme?
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jonnybarnes bear: fyi I think new nightlies come out at roughly 12:00 UTC, i.e. ~midday here in the UK
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jonnybarnes bear: the bug with the whole window being dragged around is now fixed
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jonnybarnes which is good
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@waxebb #web| posse, publish on your own site, syndicate elsewhere http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/514390524552155136)
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tantek.com edited /SWAT0 (+1735) "/* mapping to indieweb */ note inline all the pieces that are still missing and or undefined" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /SWAT0 (+46) "/* Brainstorming */ note site with reader UI, not just reader" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /SWAT0 (+191) "more undefined: how do you send a homepage webmention to someone that "someone has commented on a photo that you were tagged in"." (view diff)
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tommorris just ended up using this at work - http://i.imgur.com/l568IYg.jpg
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annevk hah
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, tommorris. I like it
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tommorris someone mentioned an "HTML4 browser". :)
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Mark87 !tell bret your resume is a broken link on bret.io/about
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme an HTML4 browser? is that a browser written in html4?
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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jonnybarnes well today was good for me as well: https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/3M
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Mark87 trimming the hedges eh
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@jgarber Here’s a really cool idea from @acegiak: Create a custom webfont with your own handwriting. http://acegiak.net/2014/09/20/handwritten-post-titles/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/514429794839449600)
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi tantek: petermolnar left you a message 6 hours, 22 minutes ago: I've spent 4+ hours yesterday trying to fix a MySQL replication; I'm jumping on the antipattern bandwagon, but it will take a loooong time.
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petermolnar good morning
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tantek petermolnar: it's definitely non-trivial to build a flat file storage setup. however once it's setup it's nearly zero maintenance. lots of peace of mind.
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petermolnar I'm looking at http://getgrav.org to be honest, but to get everything that my wordpress is capable of at the moment will not be easy at all
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tantek interesting. perhaps add it as an option to /file-storage
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tantek hey jonnybarnes nice webaction presentation on your notes e.g. https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/3M !
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tantek !tell jonnybarnes now add some <indie-action> tags around your reply, retweet, favorite buttons: http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Wrap_favorite_reply_retweet
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar.eu edited /file-storage (+157) "adding "in the wild" section + Grav" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes tantek
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Loqi jonnybarnes: tantek left you a message 33 minutes ago: now add some <indie-action> tags around your reply, retweet, favorite buttons: http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#Wrap_favorite_reply_retweet
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jonnybarnes is it always <indie-action do="verb" with="permalink">?
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tantek yes
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tantek so far that has worked for all webactions we have needed in practice
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@bear @lmorchard you should come visit us #indieweb folks over on http://indiewebcamp.com/ where we are working towards that goal (twitter.com/_/status/514441834022834176)
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jonnybarnes so is what I've done acceptable? in particular my permalinks are simple "/notes/id"
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jonnybarnes as oppose to "https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/id"
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petermolnar is anyone aware of reply to links for flickr / facebook / etc, similar to the twitter https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=ID ?
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lmorchard Oh heya. For some reason I thought I was already lurking here :/
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bear waves at lmorchard
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jonnybarnes is there anything already on the wiki?
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tantek welcome lmorchard!
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bear what is getting started
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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tantek good to see you here!
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lmorchard I’m sure every idea I’m thinking about right now has already been worked over by folks here :)
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bear many have, but one of the things I like about here is that only the ones you have implemented, even in their most basic form, are allowed to be talked about :)
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jonnybarnes but lmorchard you'll bring your own perspective
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jonnybarnes can indie-action with="" permalinks be domain-less?
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jonnybarnes I don't see why not
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lmorchard I keep getting distracted by shiny things & video games, but yay indie web
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kylewm petermolnar: facebook has https://www.facebook.com/sharer/sharer.php?u=
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tantek jonnybarnes: that's a reasonable request
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tantek let me check the spec
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jonnybarnes tantek: I've added the indie-action tags, but I don't like hardcoding domains into links if I dont have to :)
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barnabywalters huh, why don’t we have a /diversity page yet
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jonnybarnes so currently they aren't
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Loqi barnabywalters: kylewm left you a message on 9/22 at 6:17pm: I'm not using my shrewdness subscriptions to the irc log or to twitter lists anymore if you want to remove them, save on some polling :)
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tantek.com created /socialig (+320) "stub with dfn, see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Social_IG (+22) "r" (view diff)
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barnabywalters many of the existing resources for conference organisers wanting to have more diverse speakers/attendees are very much geared toward traditional conferences
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tantek.com edited /socialig (-1) "-]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /socialig (+0) "w" (view diff)
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barnabywalters a lot of which doesn’t apply so easily to participatory barcamps like indiewebcamp
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tantek.com edited /socialwg (+14) "-] see also socialig" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Social_WG (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek jonnybarnes: makes complete sense
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tantek explicitly clarifying on the /webactions page now...
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barnabywalters which is also something aral ahs experienced: https://twitter.com/aral/status/499217147483402240
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@aral (…We had a very diverse turnout for https://ind.ie/summit/ but we also struggled on the second day during the unconference. Thoughts?) (twitter.com/_/status/499217147483402240)
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barnabywalters so certainly not a one-off
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tantek barnabywalters: the answer is to explicitly reach out and invite people who are different from yourself
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tantek for barcamps, *camps in general
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tantek without personal 1:1 invitations, (most) people in practice assume they are not invited
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tantek especially if they see photos of previous events in a series and see no one that looks like them
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tantek I also don't believe Aral's statement about diverse turnout for his summit without actual documented stats or a photo or some other type of evidence
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barnabywalters tantek: well ind.ie had a more diverse set of speakers to start with: https://ind.ie/summit/
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tommorris "All round nice guy." Shudder.
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tommorris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nice_guy
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barnabywalters tommorris: I take it you didn’t write that bio then
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tommorris barnabywalters: no, Aral wrote it. I don't mind it, but...
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tommorris "When used in a negative context (sometimes capitalized), a "Nice Guy" implies a male who is unassertive, does not express his true feelings and uses acts of ostensible friendship with the unstated aim of progressing to a romantic or sexual relationship. The term is often used in the context of dating and romantic or sexual relationships with women."
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tommorris "men who view themselves as prototypical "nice guys," but whose "nice deeds" are deemed motivated by manipulating women into a relationship and/or sex"
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tantek tommorris, yeah that sounds like #indiechat - unless we've had an actual "nice guy" problem
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tantek in #indiewebcamp / at an IndieWebCamp
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tommorris indeed.
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barnabywalters I’m going to create a stub /diversity page with links to some relevant resources which will get lost otherwise
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@bear @lmorchard @soypunk identity in #indieweb is implicit because you own your domain and with IndieAuth your identity (twitter.com/_/status/514451895164100608)
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kylewm barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 71 karma
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+441) "improve "do" attribute documentation, write-up "with" URL documentation including explicit support of relative URLs, consistent with "href", and per jonnybarnes realworld use-case https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/3M" (view diff)
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lmorchard Oh hey, ping’d in IRC and twitter, neat :)
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tantek barnabywalters: sounds good
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bear sorry for the noise lmorchard :)
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lmorchard Naw, s'ok
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bear you get used to it here
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lmorchard Really is a neat bot
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barnabywalters argh, I want to define “diversity” positively without just saying “lack of homogeniety/monoculture”
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barnabywalters suggestions?
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lmorchard I need to read through all the things on the wiki to play catch up
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tantek barnabywalters: perhaps wait to start a stub until you have a better idea of what to put there?
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tantek I nominate tommorris to start /diversity ;)
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barnabywalters tantek: I have a bunch of links, but not a concrete definition
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tantek barnabywalters: so a bunch of links might not actually be helpful
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bear lmorchard - I found that just running thru the Getting Started page is a good intro - gets the basics out of the way and then you start your personal projects page and document your itches
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tommorris alright, I'll have a go.
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tantek anyone can google for a bunch of links
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barnabywalters or at least one that I’m happy with
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tantek a wiki page should be deliberate thoughtful curation thereof
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tantek and it might be better if our /diversity page isn't just started by yet another cisgender white male - just saying
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lmorchard I’ve kind of followed indie web stuff, but keep getting distracted by other shiny things and video games
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barnabywalters tantek: I have one in particular which took me a little while to find, hence not wanting it to get lost again
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tantek barnabywalters: suggest it to tommorris and if he thinks it's good then we can add it
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barnabywalters tantek: agreed (other than the assumption that I’m cisgender)
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tantek on matters of diversity it's worth getting *diverse* perspectives ;)
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barnabywalters (I am, but just saying)
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lmorchard like the 6 month stretch playing eve online and building market analysis crap to make internet spaceship moneys
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tantek barnabywalters: apologies for the assumption, was implying based on interactions, but you're right. :)
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bear oh my - eve online is my productivity hole also
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jonnybarnes football manager is mine
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tantek lmorchard: we have #indiechat for our productivity holes ;)
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tantek join us in there
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tommorris to avoid the problem of the page being started by a cisgender white male, I'll start it.
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tommorris oh, wait, I am a cisgender white male.
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tommorris balls.
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tantek so let's take this as a challenge
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tantek get someone who is *not* a cisgender white male to start the /diversity page
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tantek if we can't do that - that's a very big indicator of a problem
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tantek and we can use it as a forcing function
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barnabywalters specifically, the links I don’t want to lose are http://mozzadrella.me/post/94478195501/how-to-design-a-conference-for-equity-and-learning (conference diversity advice specifically tailored towards unconferences)
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tantek what is barcamp?
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Loqi BarCamp is an open structure for creating and organizing user-generated conferences focused on whatever subject(s) the organizers and attendees decide http://indiewebcamp.com/barcamp
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tantek barnabywalters: add it there ^^^
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barnabywalters and https://twitter.com/aral/status/499216588416233472, which is has a bunch of useful feedback/commentary in the reply chain
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@aral So, who else is coming to @indiewebcamp Brighton? There’s currently an embarrassing all-white-male list of “creators” http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators (twitter.com/_/status/499216588416233472)
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barnabywalters tantek: doing so, good idea
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barnabywalters also +1 for challenge of non cis white male starting /diversity
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tantek barnabywalters: yeah I'm not going to bother to dignify Aral's tweet - since it was wrong (inaccurate) at time of posting - there was *one* woman who had signed up before his tweet
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bear yea +1 for that
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barnabywalters tantek: well in that case the useful feedback needs to be extracted and stored somewhere. Currently that reply chain is the only easy way of seeing it all.
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tommorris I do wish the community here were more diverse, especially because the current Facebook war on drag queens shows exactly why silos can't be trusted to protect the interests of minority groups. same with twitter and their completely lacklustre response when women started being harassed en masse.
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GWG How do you encourage it though, without singling any group out
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tommorris I'm just encouraging friends to get involved and offering to help if they want to.
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GWG tommorris, I'm having trouble getting people I'm friendly with to move beyond clicking a like button.
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /BarCamp (+374) "added diversity section with link to mozzadrella resource" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG ditto
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tantek tommorris++ encouraging friends to get involved, especially friends who are different than yourself.
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Loqi tommorris has 53 karma
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GWG Try to convince someone to start a blog or personal website nowadays
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tommorris A lot of my friends publish their own sites often on their own domains. But we need to make this a LOT simpler.
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tommorris Tumblr is a great model to follow.
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tommorris A lot of creative people want their own site and use Tumblr because it's ludicrously simple.
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tommorris The difficulty though is they also want the community on Tumblr.
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GWG Community is a big draw for writing
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tantek GWG - the key is not to convince someone to start a blog or personal website, but rather to find folks who already *want* a blog or personal website, and help them
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ShaneHudson I've had a lot of people asking how to start a blog lately, people are starting to want something less ephemeral
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tantek more time on helping, less time on convincing
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+636) "move action markup, action do verbs, with URL from brainstorming to "how to" section, now that we have rough consensus of running code. leave behind action tag origins and citation as historical documentation" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson My hairdresser today (whilst I was fixing her computer) asked for something that is exactly what indieweb is about. She isn't technically minded at all so I pointed her towards Known
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GWG tantek, I am still moving toward more easily posting notes
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tantek jonnybarnes: thanks for the nudge. now documented explicitly: http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions#with_URL
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tantek GWG++ good! scratch your own itch before helping others scratch theirs.
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Loqi GWG has 20 karma
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jonnybarnes np tantek
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tommorris tantek: yep, friend enablers, not theology salesmen. :)
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GWG tantek, I am hoping my itches also are shared so people might help me reach areas that I can not scratch alone.
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@kevinmarks “you're never going to email yourself into building a website” @t http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-09-23/line/1411488122106 (twitter.com/_/status/514457883459608576)
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tantek GWG you can help discover if your itches are shared by activetly documenting/iterating your itches on your User: page
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GWG I do, I think. Think it needs more details?
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tantek GWG - yes, add an explicit "Itches" section here below your "In Development" section http://indiewebcamp.com/User:David.shanske.com
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tantek where you just document your itches - even things you have no in development progress on yet
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GWG That seems more like poison ivy to me.
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GWG An itch you can't yet scratch
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tantek documenting it gets it out of your head at least :)
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GWG Will have to give my grand vision more thought
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KevinMarks Hm, Tantek, your edits to http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0 are making monolith assumptions
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annevk https://indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS gives mixed content warnings
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annevk in Firefox Nightly
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annevk most likely images
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tantek what is monolith assumptions?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "monolith assumptions" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=monolith+assumptions
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tantek KevinMarks - do you have people-tags figured out? documented anywhere?
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tantek do you have how to detect mentions of people-tags figured out? documented anywhere?
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tantek do you have webmentions of "someone comments on a photo you were tagged in" figured out? documented anywhere?
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bear annevk - yea, looks like 4 photos for tantek, gregor, rascul and aaron
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bear are being loaded from http://
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annevk is there an indieweb solution for that yet other than convincing everyone to use TLS?
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KevinMarks The people tag page doesn't require location in a photo, you just made that up
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bear annevk - getting folks to use https is the only real solution
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KevinMarks I get tagged in photos on silos without being in them too, this is a notification mode
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bear I scanned the links and it looks like 3 of them could be switched to https - checking their templates now
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tantek KevinMarks - I did not make that up. Every existing people-tag implementation has a notion of a 2D point or rect in a photo
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tantek e.g. Instagram, Flickr
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KevinMarks Eg tagged as being the photographer
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tantek feel free to provide a counter-example
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tantek so no, I did not make that up
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KevinMarks Instagram doesn't have rects
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tantek it has 2D points. please re-read.
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tantek that's on the wiki too
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bear.im edited /Template:gRegor (+1) "update profile image to use https" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /Template:aaronpk (+1) "update profile image to use https" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /Template:kylewm (+1) "update profile image to use https" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /Template:rascul (+1) "update profile image to use https" (view diff)
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bear annevk - got it down to a single template that cannot be switched to https -- http://tantek.com/logo.jpg
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KevinMarks that we've had this as a to do on microformats for years now says it isn't key http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#new_microformat_requests
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KevinMarks That discussion was when? 2005?
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bear ah - tantek has a self-signed root cert
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KevinMarks A location in a photo is optional, not required for people tagging
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tantek sorry :( my bad
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kylewm tantek: you could link to your twitter profile image in the template like you do on /User:Tantek.com
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tantek KevinMarks - why do you assert that? what example substantiantes that claim?
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KevinMarks The example of tagging the photographer, or those present but not captured
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aaronparecki.com edited /SWAT0 (+231) "/* mapping to indieweb */ tagging people" (view diff)
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KevinMarks http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club#Photos
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aaronparecki.com edited /SWAT0 (+31) "/* mapping to indieweb */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks There's an example
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tantek.com edited /Template:t (+43) "use twitter icon for https image" (view diff)
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bear tantek++ for updating profile image
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Loqi tantek has 83 karma
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bear annevk++ for pointing out our https page was mixed-content
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Loqi annevk has 1 karma
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tantek KevinMarks - http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-08-13-homebrew-website-club#Photos doesn't have any people-tags
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KevinMarks It has a poorly marked up tagging of @katelosse
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tantek it does not have a people-tag nor even just a mention tag of @katelosse
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tantek and you're missing the point of the *clear* distinction between people-tagging in photos and mention-tagging in captions, as *widely* implemented and in use e.g. Instagram, Facebook
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tantek not all *tags* are *people-tags*
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KevinMarks You're retconning that info swat0
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KevinMarks Swat0 says tagging
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tantek KevinMarks - nope, not retconning because I was the one to write it up in the first place
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tantek and it's pretty commonly accepted that "tagging someone *in* a photo" means people-tagging
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tantek so don't try to wordsmith a more liberal definition
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KevinMarks http://tantek.com/2010/199/t3/fsws-social-web-acid-test-swat-v0
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KevinMarks "notified that they are in a photo"
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KevinMarks You are now insisting on specific plumbing
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tantek crap : federatedsocialweb-net expired and taken over by a spammer :(
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek KevinMarks - that was my initial draft to write it down so it got somewhere with a permalink
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tantek because obviously I somehow KNEW at the time that I couldn't trust the federatedsocialweb-net collaborative resource
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tantek WTF
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anomalily Hey, all so I am a queer white female so I can totally start the diversity page
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anomalily ...right?
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KevinMarks You're very welcome to
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@klike_fr database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp http://seenthis.net/index.php?action=seenli&me=6bmg (twitter.com/_/status/514471360806920193)
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KevinMarks And welcome anomalily
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KevinMarks Do you have your own website?
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anomalily Yup.
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anomalily Indieweb OG: my own domain since 1995 ;)
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KevinMarks Yay
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KevinMarks When I posted http://known.kevinmarks.com/2014/at-homebrew-website-club-with-aaronpareckicom-aaronpk did you get notified, @aaronpk?
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aaronpk yes I got a pretty hacky notification on my watch
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 day, 2 hours ago: might be time to stop having Loqi put webmentions to indiewebcamp.com into the channel - getting *very* noisy (too many, sometimes seemingly duplicate, mentions). Perhaps put them into their own dated archives somewhere?
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KevinMarks I get notified on my watch when tagged via webmention to my known (notified via email, but that counts imo)
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ShaneHudson KevinMarks linked to aaronpk on his website and aaronpk got notified on his watch... Oh I love the future :D
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KevinMarks What is diversity?
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aaronpk agreed that email notification counts, since the notification is just plumbing
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "diversity" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=diversity
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KevinMarks There you go anomalily, fire away
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@TiBounise database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp http://seenthis.net/index.php?action=seenli&me=6bmg (twitter.com/_/status/514474355733323776)
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danlyke Is anyone else mucking about with WithKnown? A good "here's how to integrate it with Twitter/Facebook/Diaspora/G+" tutorial would be appreciated...
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KevinMarks Twitter fb are plugins that ship with it
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danlyke KevinMarks, I'm running off the git repo, not seeing them. Tools and Apps just has the Bookmarklet and an API key. Seems to put the right icon when I add FB and Twitter links to my profile, but I'm not seeing indication of further integration there...
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KevinMarks G+ is tricky as poor API
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@mathpunk @enth @misuba (Aside: I've been hanging out with indie web camp kids http://indiewebcamp.com/ Their site is a useful thinking kit for me.) (twitter.com/_/status/514476024323514368)
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KevinMarks http://known.kevinmarks.com/account/settings/services is where they show up for me
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danlyke KevinMarks G+ is kind of irrelevant, but since I'm playing and testing am open to whatever.
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KevinMarks You may need to enable plugins at http://known.kevinmarks.com/admin/plugins/ first
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danlyke Huh. Clearly I've got some plugin configuration or something to do: http://dan.flutterby.net/account/settings/services (URL subject to change) I'm getting a "Ruh roh" message.
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KevinMarks Obviously replace my url with yours - the links should be in the header
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KevinMarks When logged in
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danlyke Ah. Okay, found the plugins page. Thanks!
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danlyke Huh, okay, nothing mentioning Facebook or Twitter there, will dig deeper.
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anomalily Oh my god it is a big blank page with the title "diversity"
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anomalily NOT AT ALL INTIMIDATING
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danlyke anomalily probably a big white page. And as a white male, I can only say "well, we've got to start somewhere". Also: Anything you offer to that page is an improvement on what we've got now.
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aaronpk danlyke++
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Loqi danlyke has 5 karma
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anomalily I have so many feels about diversity on the web and intersectionality and oh my
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anomalily I may need to drink some whiskey before I start this
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kylewm danlyke: i would guess you need to set twitter and facebook API keys somewhere for Known?
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kylewm I don't have twitter/facebook plugins available on mine (self-hosted) either
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danlyke anomalily, there's lots of feels to be had in this space. If we can help encourage you, holler.
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danlyke kylewm I'd expect there'd be a UI of some sort for it. My blogging tool involves hackery with command-lines, but the reason to use WithKnown would be avoiding that.
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kylewm danlyke: I was wrong, I don't have the twitter plugin at all... https://github.com/idno/Twitter will try installing it
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danlyke anomalily also: I'm a het white male, have been spending a lot of time in LGBT spaces recently (square dancing), so I'm starting to see some of the ways I get off easy, but know I lack the perspective to approach the topic. ie: Whatever you do is very likely better than anything any of us can do, and we know that.
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kylewm danlyke: yep, cloned that into IdnoPlugins, and enabled it under Site Features, now I have a /admin/twitter screen
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danlyke kylewm Sweet! Thanks.
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@libel_vox Has anyone else gotten their @twitter archive export link? Email with link never arrives, not in spam folder. :( #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/514480343630368769)
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anomalily I work in social equity nonprofits as my day job so I kinda know how to talk about this stuff ;-)
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danlyke anomalily: Yay! Looking forward to a starting place!
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Loqi giggles
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kylewm POSSE success, benwerd parody accomplished https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/514481230650167296
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@kyle_wm I'm testing Known! (twitter.com/_/status/514481230650167296)
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danlyke kylewm my git clone/enable plug-in adventure has stopped at "Fatal Error: /home/danlyke/code/idno/IdnoPlugins/Twitter/Main.php:243 - "Call to a member function request() on a non-object", on page dan.flutterby.net/twitter/auth"
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danlyke kylewm Facebook button is just ending up back on the same page.
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kylewm danlyke: yeah... I got the 'redirect back to same page' with twitter before i switched my DB back to MySQL from Mongo
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kylewm I don't know what that was about
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danlyke kylewm ah: I'm using Mongo. Will probably just continue to add features to my own system, need to figure out how to wrap it up for distribution...
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tantek anomalily++ and welcome!
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Loqi anomalily has 1 karma
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parzzix well took another step...have my own mailserver now...used mailinabox.email
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tantek oh wow that's tough stuff parzzix
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tantek parzzix: perhaps add that to /email ?
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anomalily I gave up on running my own mailserver 2 years ago and it has improved my life greatly. Holy shit, I spent all my damn time fighting spam blacklists & spambots
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tantek yeah
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parzzix with mailinbox it was easy...well so far...will do tantek
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tantek what is mailinbox?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mailinbox" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mailinbox
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tantek or is it
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tantek what is mailinabox?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mailinabox" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mailinabox
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tantek parzzix: perhaps start by stubbing those pages ^^^ ? (presumably one is a redirect to the other, preferably created with the canonical capitalization used by the creators/maintainers of the product)
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parzzix goto http://mailinabox.email easier for you to look than me to type it all.
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parzzix ben also updated known to 0.6.3 which has fixed my issues..good day all around.
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tantek parzzix: please start a stub page with even just that URL!
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tantek woot!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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tantek benwerd++ for responsive updating of Known
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Loqi benwerd has 39 karma
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parzzix i'll work on the mailinabox entry in a little bit.
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tantek thank you!
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@parzzix Yay! got twitter working on my self hosted @withknown ! .. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/514486635216773121)
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tantek yay parzzix !
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shanehudson.net created /shanehudson.net (+34) "Adding redirects" (view diff)
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shanehudson.net created /wiki/shanehudson (+34) "Adding redirects" (view diff)
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parzzix anyone ever look at redecentralize.org? basically same concept as indieweb
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tantek parzzix: not really. it's a series of video interviews.
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bear parzzix++
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Loqi parzzix has 4 karma
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tantek oh and an email list
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tantek which we don't do
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kylewm but some overlap, Kenton has been to HWC in SF, and obviously Aral has been to IWCs
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tantek kylewm: yes the interviews do include some indieweb folks
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tantek but I see no evidence of "same concept as"
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bret its a broad interest based site with interveiws and news. I enjoyed the few interveiews I watched :)
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tantek parzzix: indieweb has specific documented http://indiewebcamp.com/principles - I don't see anything like that on redecentralize.org that would make it seem like the "same concept"
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tantek maybe I'm missing something
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Loqi bret: Mark87 left you a message 5 hours, 4 minutes ago: your resume is a broken link on bret.io/about
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tantek bret - right, it's a media site
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bret doh!
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tantek not a commmunity
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parzzix tantek, I gotcha...I was looking at more the basic concept being similiar..
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parzzix the decentralization part :)
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tantek nope, indieweb is *not* about decentralization per se. decentralization is a side-effect.
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bear decentralization will happy as a normal part of the process when everyone owns their data and site and allows sharing
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bret i like decentralized projects though, bittorrent + dht ftw :)
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bret dowhateveryouwant++
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Loqi dowhateveryouwant has 1 karma
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parzzix gotcha tantek
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tantek parzzix: right on the front page
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/#Beyond_Blogging_and_Decentralization
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tantek really important distinction
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@danlyke @benwerd #indiewebcamp IRC helped me figure that out. Getting crash w/Twitter, and rumor is that Facebook only works w/MySQL? (just reloads) (twitter.com/_/status/514491109176008704)
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parzzix ok...I should read more..I have a bad habit of browsing quickly.
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tantek parzzix: it's why we've put that on the home page
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tantek it's *that* important
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parzzix Nextquestion....what is PubSubHubbub?
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Loqi PubSubHubbub (PuSH) is a notification-based protocol for publishing and subscribing to feeds/streams in real time http://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub
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bret Loqi gets a cookie
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Loqi woot!
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tantek bret, this is how you give it a cookie:
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tantek gives Loqi a cookie.
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Loqi loves the cookie.
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bret hehe
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tantek :D
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@anomalily Best platform for #indieweb publishing of an event series? Know anything with backward integration to Facebook/Twitter RSVPs? (twitter.com/_/status/514496421262028801)
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tantek that's the spirit - ask the tough questions anomalily!
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tantek !tell anomalily Known is the best answer right now to https://twitter.com/anomalily/status/514496421262028801 - it can publish indie events, and if you manually POSSE your indie event to FB, you can get RSVPs sent back to your site from FB via Bridgy.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@kevinmarks @anomalily http://withknown.com does it, not sure if other RSVP implementors let you deploy http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp (twitter.com/_/status/514497671433031680)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/514497671433031680/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp (webmention)
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danlyke kylewm just an update: Configured in both site features *and* my account, now both appear to be working...
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KevinMarks That split is a bit tricky, problems of a multiuser site
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tantek posted https://twitter.com/t/status/514502164639911936
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@t just discovered today that federatedsocialweb(.)net got squatted/redirected. who let that expire? @evanpro @W3C? sigh. (ttk.me t4YG1) (twitter.com/_/status/514502164639911936)
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rascul bear good catch on my template thing
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rascul bear++
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Loqi bear has 29 karma
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bear rascul - annevk gets the credit for finding the issue, I just jumped in to fix it
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rascul annevk++
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Loqi annevk has 2 karma
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rascul mutual effort :)
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tantek welcome lukasb!
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lukasb thanks! just poking around, thinking about how best to implement this stuff on my homebrew blog.
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@kevinmarks @lmorchard come on over to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc and let's chat there (twitter.com/_/status/514503738464423936)
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parzzix Right when I thought everything was good, seems rel=me links still don't work on my known.
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lukasb saw ben roberts' in-context conversation display and was pretty impressed
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bear @KevinMarks he is already here :)
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lmorchard o/
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tantek lukasb - indeed! Ben Roberts (ben_thatmust) kind of suprised us all
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KevinMarks Hah
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/724885424/1566815933547350/589682874 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek lukasb, a few of us gave him a minor hard time for not having reply-contexts at all - so he went and implemented in one day beyond what any of the rest of us had gotten working - just because that's what the docs said to!
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KevinMarks Hi les, what was the specific thing you wanted?
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tantek lukasb in particular: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Levels
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KevinMarks I was a bit unclear on twitter
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lukasb classic "i didn't know that was supposed to be a hard problem so i just did it"
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tantek amazing example of, if you specify it, someone will build it.
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lmorchard Well, in a nutshell, Amazon S3 but with a much better signup experience & an oauth-based API on top
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tantek lukasb yeah totally
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KevinMarks Ben got called out on TWiG for not showing context like Twitter, so he overdelivered
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tantek oh yeah - it was that too - ben_thatmust was *publicly* called out on *video* lol
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tantek lmorchard: would you be happy with existing withknown mobile signup flow if it allowed you to use your own (sub)domain?
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tantek as in your domain or a subdomain or your domain
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KevinMarks Would Heroku's new deploy button count? Or is the signup step too much?
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lmorchard Well, I’d like generic dumb web hosting, so any app I like could throw content up there
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jonnybarnes what's ben_thatmust's site address?
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tantek genericdumbwebhosting++
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Loqi genericdumbwebhosting has 1 karma
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lmorchard And I’d want it to be as friendly to non-techies as possible
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tantek jonnybarnes: check /irc-people :)
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KevinMarks Micropub is one answer
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lukasb actually i can imagine something that looks less like Twitter and more like Tumblr done right. i guess code talks and bullshit walks though.
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KevinMarks Drive/Dropbox is another
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tantek KevinMarks: Micropub is *not* an answer to the *platform* question. Come on.
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tantek lukasb - precisely
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tantek codetalksbullshitwalks++
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Loqi codetalksbullshitwalks has 1 karma
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lmorchard Like: sign up, maybe there’s a free tier or otherwise supply credit card, do an oauth dance with an app on my phone, and it’s pushing HTML / CSS / RSS to my new URL
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tantek this ^^^
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KevinMarks It's an answer to "any app throwing content"
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lmorchard I can totally do that now with Amazon S3, but it’s a really arcane process
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lmorchard I don’t know if it still works, but I built this once upon a time http://s3.amazonaws.com/twas/post.html
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tantek lmorchard: would you believe this was fully designed UX back in 2011? check it out (with screenshots) http://indiewebcamp.com/2011/one-click-install
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KevinMarks Right, I'm thinking micropub UI to generic cloud hosting backend
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tantek what is a generic cloud hosting backend?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "generic cloud hosting backend" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=generic+cloud+hosting+backend
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tantek lukasb what's your personal site?
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lukasb theporouscity.com
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KevinMarks AWS is such a rats maze of setup
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lmorchard Like, I think “I want to be on the web” and I sign up with this thing that puts me on the web. Then I get a microblogging app that asks “where are you on the web?” (or sees that in my device profile) and asks my thing for permission to start publishing there
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tantek lmorchard: the second half of that is solved as KevinMarks said with micropub and micropub clients
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KevinMarks Squarespace is close to that. I suppose
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lmorchard Not sure this is new thinking, and I’m trying to be very simpleminded about the experience
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/514503738464423936/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc (webmention)
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tantek the "sign up" part is still in progress though the withknown.com mobile sign-up flow is VERY close
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KevinMarks Withknown.com doesn't have the own domain option yet, except by hand
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lmorchard And later, I could decide that I want to try sharing photos. So, I get a photo app and point it to where I am on the web, and it starts publishing there
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tantek lukab++ nice personal site! especially like your clean design of a composite stream! (which is hard to do)
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Loqi lukab has 1 karma
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tantek drat
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tantek lukasb++ nice personal site! especially like your clean design of a composite stream! (which is hard to do)
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Loqi lukasb has 1 karma
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lmorchard And maybe later than that, I have a game that posts badges to the web, so I have it put them where I am on the web too
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KevinMarks Right, so far so micropub
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tantek lukasb you even have link rel=me already in your header
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tantek in that case, lukasb, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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lmorchard KevinMarks: http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub ? I’ll read up
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lukasb thanks! badly needs ... a lot of things. but i think the federated social stuff will be enough for me to hold my nose and dive into the 2002-era perl code.
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lmorchard Though even that looks too structured for what I’m thinking
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tantek lmorchard yes that's the one
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KevinMarks Very simple posting protocol, needs indieauth
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tantek lukasb - all our personal sites badly need - a lot of things. that's why we're all here :)
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lmorchard Because I’m thinking rock-bottom building block, shovelling content at a URL. Let the app decide what goes there
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tantek lmorchard: if you can come up with something simpler than micropub (with similar or better security) - totally interested in hearing about it
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lmorchard LIke almost literally Amazon S3 with a not-bad UX
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tantek consider micropub the bar to beat
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tantek except S3 is proprietary API
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jonnybarnes I like it when bugs are squashed
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tantek lmorchard: btw you can ask "what is …" about anything like micropub and likely get a definition / link to wiki page
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tantek e.g.
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tantek what is micropub?
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lmorchard Or then maybe webdav, but it’s the on-boarding and permission UX that I’m more concerned with
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Loqi Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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tantek what is S3?
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Loqi Amazon S3 is a file hosting service from Amazon http://indiewebcamp.com/S3
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KevinMarks Well, Google Drive is the other half of that, except it has hideous urls
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theporouscity.com edited /IRC_People (+51) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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tantek what is API?
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Loqi API is an abbreviation for Application Programming Interface http://indiewebcamp.com/API
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tantek what is UX?
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Loqi Design is a catchall term used to refer to everything that affects users about a page/site including: http://indiewebcamp.com/ux
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tantek pats Loqi on the head.
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Loqi woot!
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theporouscity.com edited /IRC_People (+0) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes How long has Loqi been around?
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theporouscity.com edited /IRC_People (+0) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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tantek Loqi, how old are you?
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lukasb my first add wasn't alpha order and my edit broke the page. excellent.
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lmorchard But basically, PUT to an URL could be the API as far as I care
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lukasb i think we're good now however
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tantek lukasb - add an image yourself too and it will show up in the logs
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tantek see others entries on that page with images
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KevinMarks POST is better add then the server can choose the url
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lmorchard Sure, then POST :)
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lmorchard But actually, I want the app to choose the URL, given a base
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lmorchard The server should be as stupid as possible
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Loqi gives lmorchard the app to choose the URL
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tantek lmorchard: agreed on the simplicity principle for sure. hence micropub.
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tantek and the challenge to do better.
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lmorchard Like, here microblogging app, you get to take over everything under http://lmorchard.com/micro/
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tantek.com edited /IRC_People (+43) "/* Nicknames */ use my Twitter icon since its https" (view diff)
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lmorchard you can put HTML / CSS / JS / activity streams / images / whatever there
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tantek lmorchard: let's start with something simpler, add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people the way lukasb just did
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KevinMarks That is how Dropbox api works I think - each app gets a folder
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lmorchard Yup
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KevinMarks Not ideal if you want app+post type to be independent
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lukasb i would really love to stay in this room all day while i hack on my site but day job calls :(
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lmorchard Only they’re tailored toward being your flash drive in the sky. They have public hosting, but it’s not the main thing
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lukasb i'll be back
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lukasb thanks for the friendly welcome
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KevinMarks misses iDisk
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lmorchard Hmm, I thought I had rel=me links on my domain. Need to fix that!
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, new faces errr, names
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lmorchard But yeah, if I could have Dropbox, but it was mainly aimed at being a static web host, that would probably be it
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tantek what is Dropbox?
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Loqi Dropbox is a file hosting web service http://indiewebcamp.com/Dropbox
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lmorchard I did have an HTML5 app hosted from my Dropbox that used the Dropbox JS API to write back to the public hosting, which was neat
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jonnybarnes going through the micropub page, and this is probably simple, but in PHP how can you detect if a post request is empty?
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lmorchard Hmm, IndieAuth is nifty
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lmorchard.com edited /IRC_People (+50) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes indeed it is lmorchard, indeed it is
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lmorchard.com created /User:Lmorchard.com (+73) "Created page with "{{stub}} <span class="h-card">[http://lmorchard.com/ Les Orchard]</span>"" (view diff)
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tantek lmorchard: now add an avatar/icon image to your /irc-people entry so it shows up all nice and friendly like in the logs! see one of our entries for an example
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lmorchard Yeah, I’m poking around for one that’s not 256x256 :)
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tantek lmorchard: like this? https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/477182669923422208/pLz1yGWh_normal.jpeg ;)
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lmorchard Yeah, though I might use one without my cat in it
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tantek or even this - which live redirects to the latest one: https://twitter.com/lmorchard/profile_image
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lmorchard.com edited /IRC_People (+32) "/* Nicknames */" (view diff)
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lmorchard Might as well stay indie and use my own URL
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tantek lmorchard: that's the spirit!
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tantek.com edited /Template:t (-34) "use dynamic Twitter URL for https and so I can upload new ones in the future and still have it work" (view diff)
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tantek I would too except I don't have Level 3 HTTPS setup on my site yet :/
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tantek only at Level 2
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lmorchard Oh oof, yeah, I don’t really have HTTPS on my domain beyond a self-signed cert for my own private apps
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lmorchard Should fix that oto
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tantek lmorchard: hey that's a couple of "should fix"es - start an "Itches" or "Working On" list on your User: page!
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tantek (see any of ours for an example)
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lmorchard I see what you’re doing there!
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lmorchard Now I’m getting all engaged and such
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tantek lmorchard: really great to have you here
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lmorchard I should have been doing things around here a long time ago
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tantek it's never too late to start. this stuff is still super early.
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Loqi yea
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tantek gives Loqi a treat.
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KevinMarks You have been doing indie web things since before it had a name
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Loqi grabs the treat.
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ben_thatmustbeme I guess i'm level 4 https, it says forward security is only "with some browsers"
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ben_thatmustbeme A- ssl labs score. I don't think its worth me fighting my hosting provider for support on that at the moment
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lmorchard I’m also serially enthusiastic and easily distracted, leave lots of half-baked experiments around
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ben_thatmustbeme lmorchard, i know how you feel
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tantek lmorchard: capturing stuff in a list helps with that
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tantek plus having a community of folks supporting keeping you on track
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ben_thatmustbeme that does help a lot
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tantek nothing wrong with half-baked experiments. sometimes they help others figure stuff out too.
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bear lmorchard - that is the beauty of how things are done around here - you maintain your own list and your own flow
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KevinMarks I have so many half baked things on my site.
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bear things that you have done are talked about - the rest go into your "itch" column to stare at you
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tantek bear++
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Loqi bear has 30 karma
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bear and the number of styles and languages is now varied enough that we are getting a good set of examples for each
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bear perl, python, ruby, php, nodejs, go
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danlyke C++
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Loqi C has 43 karma
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petermolnar :D
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petermolnar C > C\++
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danlyke (I did that both for inclusion, because that's what I'm developing for Flutterby.net in, and just to see what Loqi would do...)
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Loqi is done
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ben_thatmustbeme petermolnar, i'm with you on that one
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petermolnar I meant for the karma of the two languages; it's a bit hard to raise it for Cplusplus :)
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danlyke C++++?
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petermolnar ( although as former embedded dev, I also agree with the statement ;) )
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ben_thatmustbeme c\+\+++
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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petermolnar Cplusplus++
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Loqi Cplusplus has 1 karma
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tantek what is C?
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Loqi code in the context of the indieweb, refers to source code, code files, typically in a revision control system, like Git, hosted on an indieweb site http://indiewebcamp.com/c
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tantek heh
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tantek what is C++?
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Loqi code in the context of the indieweb, refers to source code, code files, typically in a revision control system, like Git, hosted on an indieweb site http://indiewebcamp.com/c
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kylewm so why does m redirect to messages and c to code?
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kylewm and t to note apparently...
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tantek oh I think that's my fault
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tantek I started redirecting per tantek.com/w/Whistle short codes from letter to post type
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ben_thatmustbeme t goes to note??
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh
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tantek specifically http://tantek.com/w/Whistle#design
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tantek please feel free to edit and change those redirects to something more meaningful
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tantek is anyone here actually coding their website in C or C++?
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tantek is waiting to be really impressed.
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tantek even as a C/C++ coder.
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kylewm points to danlyke
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tantek if so please edit /C and document yourself as an IndieWeb Example!
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danlyke tantek, I'm still using Perl for the CGI bits of Flutterby.net, but as my C++ database mad sk1llz get better, I'll be deploying C++ there too.
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tantek amazing. definitely start the indiewebcamp.com/C++ article
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danlyke When I wrote in Python and Perl I started wanting types, and then I realized that if I could get a basic set of libraries for regexes and similar stuff, I could be as productive in C++ interpreted languages.
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tantek danlyke++ for keeping the C++ flame alive.
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Loqi danlyke has 6 karma
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danlyke Just today, I had to correct a cow-orker's Perl idioms that would have been far more obvious in a compile-time checked language.
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danlyke Also, I want to understand a little more about Emscripten's namespace handling, so I can just compile C++ to JavaScript for deploying to the browser.
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aaronpk omg hwc is tomorrow night? that came up fast again
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petermolnar https://kore.io/ <- for C enthusiasts
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tantek aaronpk yes!
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lmorchard.com edited /User:Lmorchard.com (+1624) (view diff)
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: for micropub token verification, is there any particular http code that should be used in the case of the token being invalid?
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tantek aaronpk, could you add an indie event URL and FB Posse copy for the Portland HWC meetup here: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club#URLs ?
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tantek welcome back snarfed!
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tantek are you going to HWC SF this week? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club#RSVP
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tantek KevinMarks: you too ^^^
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tantek (even though you posted the indie event ;) )
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snarfed hi tantek! no, sorry. planning to post why in a minute
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tantek ooh! /me tries to contain his excitement.
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aaronpk methinks I should deploy my change to give bridgy longer-lasting webmention endpoints
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/514497671433031680/514518776239230976 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp (webmention)
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tantek aaronpk that sounds like an excellent idea
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: HTTP 400 I believe
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: thanks
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aaronpk (following the OAuth 2.0 pattern)
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aaronpk and just verified that's what tokens.indieauth.com does: `curly https://tokens.indieauth.com/token -H "Authorization: Bearer x"`
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KevinMarks I'm probably not going
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KevinMarks Danlyke have you looked at go?
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kylewm C++11 is kind of fun... trying in vain not to overuse lambdas
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Loqi C has 44 karma
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ShaneHudson Lol
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danlyke KevinMarks haven't much. Still trying to figure out where I want to go next lifestyle/career-wise, and C++11 seemed like it had more application (ie: embedded stuff).
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danlyke kylewm I love lambdas. Makes putting together that library to use C++ for the kinds of things I use Perl for *so* much easier.
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KevinMarks Brands discover POSSE? http://www.adweek.com/news/advertising-branding/brand-publishers-are-ditching-facebook-favor-microsites-160263
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bear indieweb version of pay-to-post?
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lmorchard Party like it’s 1999
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danlyke Of course given current discovery mechanisms, we have to be careful that that's not just going from giving Facebook the power to giving Google the power...
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lmorchard Well, I mean, that’s the power Google had before Facebook, so...
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petermolnar lmorchard > http://daltoncaldwell.com/what-twitter-could-have-been
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petermolnar maybe it's time to re-visit that idea
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ShaneHudson Facebook has never had good content search, so I prefer Google to have some power there... at least they can do search well
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lmorchard I’m probably in for trouble, but my current musings have me looking at rssCloud & pubsubhubbub again
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bear lmorchard - you should checkout the indieweb feed topics on the wiki
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lmorchard Yeah, that will probably be this evening’s reading
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bear no need for rss/atom really
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lmorchard I’m admittedly behind the state of the art
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bear naa - your just cured of prior cargo-cult tendancies (if you had any) ;)
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lmorchard Oh, but that “what twitter could have been” post led to app.net :/
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petermolnar if RSS really dies I'll need to re-write rss2email for h-entry, otherwise I'm doomed :)
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petermolnar lmorchard partly yes, I just linked that for the API based real-time hub idea, not because off app.net
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petermolnar s/off/of
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: lmorchard partly yes, I just linked that for the API based real-time hub idea, not because of app.net
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lmorchard Yeah, I liked the notion in the post, but just :/ because that was the conclusion :)
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bear I like the combination of indieweb, h-entry feeds and pubsubhubbub
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jonnybarnes is aaronpk around?
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@joshuajuran @RachelShadoan Awesome! I'll be driving from Seattle to attend the Homebrew Website Club meetup. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-09-24-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/514528498761744384)
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petermolnar g' night for today, everyone
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bear o/ petermolnar
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jonnybarnes night petermolnar
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jonnybarnes what if I say Aaron's name three times?
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jonnybarnes maybe that will summon him :P
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bear :)
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ShaneHudson You have to spin around and shout 'indieweb' at the top of your voice
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tantek lmorchard: check out our IRC logs BTW, e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-23#t1411507539578 :)
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bear I feel he may be in post-NY-trip catchup jonnybarnes :)
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lmorchard Ooh, perty, I should get a transparent floating head avatar at some point
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tantek now scroll to the bottom and watch what happens in your browser window while we type here in IRC
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lmorchard Hi mom! I’m on the web!
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bear aaronpk++ for loqi log goodness
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Loqi aaronpk has 566 karma
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lmorchard.com edited /User:Lmorchard.com (+56) "/* Les Orchard */ Added pinboard.in link" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes so, random php question, the explode function produces an array. Is this always the case? i.e. explode(' ', 'spaceless');
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jonnybarnes will that then eb an array with one entry?
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jonnybarnes s/eb/be
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Loqi jonnybarnes meant to say: will that then be an array with one entry?
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ShaneHudson jonnybarnes: If I recall correctly, yes
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ShaneHudson Don't do much with PHP anymore though
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: hi sorta here
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tantek jonnybarnes: yes.
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: indieauth, scopes should be sent as a space-delimited list, thats exactly what indieauth.com then returns right?
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tantek goes to tantek.com, clicks the "JSeval" button, then pastes explode(' ', 'spaceless'); into the alert box, knowing that CASSIS has an explode function :D
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jonnybarnes thanks ShaneHudson tantek
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jonnybarnes random request tantek, but can you try explode(' ', '');?
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tantek JSeval favelet is http://tantek.com/favelets/#jseval
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kylewm jonnybarnes: [""]
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jonnybarnes theres the small possibilty that the string im running explode on can be set to ''
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jonnybarnes kylewm thanks
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tantek yup
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jonnybarnes gah, almost
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jonnybarnes so I can log into my micrpub endpoint
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jonnybarnes but not actually post via it
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aaronpk hm let me check
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aaronpk darn all the examples show just one scope value
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kylewm space separated is what i implemented, fwiw
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mko Anyone here using StartSSL for their site's SSL cert?
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ShaneHudson I need to work out a way to implement micropub. Want phone apps that do one thing very well (such as publishing photos)
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aaronpk confirmed, it returns a space-separated list of scopes in the "scope" field
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aaronpk mko: yes lots of them
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kylewm mko: ...almost everyone?
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mko aaronpk: Looking for specific examples.
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mko kylewm: I went to several sites and they were all on RapidSSL or Comodo. Using yours as a specific example with StartSSL.
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aaronpk here are two: https://indiewebcamp.com/ https://aaronparecki.com/
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aaronpk i'm going to try to get verified so i can make free wildcard certs through them
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mko Hah. I should have just looked at IndieWebCamp.
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aaronpk also https://tokens.indieauth.com/
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aaronpk and https://quill.p3k.io/
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mko It's interesting running Qualys SSL and shaaaaaaaaaaaaa.com on other peoples' sites.
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bret is json-ld valid json?
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jonnybarnes in theory you only need to run ssllabs.com
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bret wishes github-pages could serve custom domains as https
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jonnybarnes shaaa... is a quick check for a specific issue which Qualys highlights anyway
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mko jonnybarnes: shaaaaaaaaaaaaa.com is just a quick way to test SHA-2. The SSLLabs.com test takes way longer.
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mko I was specifically looking for SHA-2 support by StartSSL.
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jonnybarnes mko: I'm actually helping out on the shaa... project
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mko Nice. shaaaaaaaaaaaaa.com has been really useful.
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jonnybarnes mko, yup, they have it :)
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jonnybarnes https://shaaaaaaaaaaaaa.com/check/jonnybarnes.uk
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jonnybarnes mko: need anymore help?
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jonnybarnes for intermediate certs look here: https://www.startssl.com/certs/
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mko Nope. Just didn't want to spend the time getting verified on StartSSL if their SHA-2 support was as intermittent as RapidSSL's.
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jonnybarnes for the free certs goto /class1/sha-2
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jonnybarnes for the free certs goto /class1/sha2 even
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mko Right on. Thanks!
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GWG I have an SHA-2 Class 2 StartSSL cer
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rascul i gotta do sha-2 still
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jonnybarnes reading http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub#Indicating_the_object_being_created
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jonnybarnes should h=entry be used both for articles and notes?
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aaronpk yes since that's how you publish them
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jonnybarnes aaronpk: so, I actually store notes and articles seperately, but they'd bothe be sent to my endpoint with h=entry right?
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jonnybarnes how could I work out which is which?
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mko jonnybarnes: You could provide a form field of "type=" (which is actually what I do in my micropub instance). All of my posts are derivations of h-entry, regardless of type (h-as-like, h-as-checkin, h-as-note, etc.).
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rascul my sister is about to join, i could probably use help telling her about indieweb stuff :)
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rascul well, i think she's gonna join...
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jessierabbit Hello!
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KartikPrabhu jonnybarnes: notes don not have titles i.e. p-name
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KartikPrabhu jessierabbit: hi welcome
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rascul jessie!
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jessierabbit Ray!
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jessierabbit Wow, it's been a million years since I've used IRC
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rascul figured that ;)
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rascul do you have a personal site? i have one at https://rascul.io but it's far from completion
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shaners wonders if "what is..." works on people?
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shaners What is shaners?
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Loqi Shane Becker is a co-founder of Hypernova which is making Homesteading http://indiewebcamp.com/Shaners
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shaners HA!
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rascul what is rascul?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rascul" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rascul
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shaners wonders if "who is..." works too
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shaners who is shaners?
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rascul who is rascul?
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shaners bubkiss
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rascul oh you have your own wiki page and i just have one in User:
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jessierabbit Negative, no personal page other than my flagging page.
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shaners Does anyone deploy anything to Heroku?
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rascul shaners i think KevinMarks does
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rascul jessierabbit i can help you get one setup if you want
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rascul you are already familiar with wordpress?
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jessierabbit Yeah, I don't need help, I need time. Can you make the days longer?
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rascul yes
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rascul waves his hands around in an imitation of magical stuff
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jessierabbit Perfect!
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shaners A couple things that'll make deploying to Heroku way more betterer.
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shaners https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2014/8/7/heroku-button
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shaners https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2014/9/23/introducing-heroku-dx
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rascul jessierabbit there's a bunch of indieweb stuff for wordpress
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rascul what is wordpress?
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Loqi WordPress is an open source blog software as well as a blog hosting service http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
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rascul the posse stuff i think you would like, you can post stuff once on your own site and posse it to facebook, twitter, etc
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rascul what is posse?
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Loqi POSSE is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish (on your) Own Site, Syndicate Elsewhere http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
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kylewm shaners: I'm slowly working toward being able to use a Deploy to Heroku button for my s/w, very excited about it
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shaners same
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shaners working on adding it to HS-Note right now
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shaners "right now"
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jessierabbit i was not familiar with posse, thanks
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rascul there's also bridgy, somehow people set that up and they posse to a silo (ie twitter, facebook, etc) and when people comment on their post on the silo they get the comments on their own site
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rascul it's pretty nifty
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rascul just about everybody here has their own site where you might be able to see examples of stuff
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rascul you can look us up at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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bret kylewm++ shaners++
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Loqi kylewm has 58 karma
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bret fork n go and 1 click deploys are rad!
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bret http://jlord.us/fork-n-go/
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kylewm shaners++ for the regex :)
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Loqi shaners has 9 karma
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rascul jessierabbit also check out http://withknown.com
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shaners kylewm: which regex is that?
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kylewm shaners: ah yeah that was confusing; to satisfy for Loqi's karma regex
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bret shaners, I'm learning ruby! though I should tell you for some reason
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shaners ooooh
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shaners got it
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jessierabbit thanks ray :)
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bret yay withknown
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bret does with known have its own irc channel yet?
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aaronpk jonnybarnes: notes don't have a name, so you could distinguish based on whether the micropub request contains a "name" field
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bret there is a documented algo on the wiki about post type detection based on present fields
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rascul jessierabbit one of the people who does the withknown stuff will be at the cambridge thing
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bret progressively enhancing the notes format seems like a nice way to go though
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