#indiewebcamp 2014-10-28

2014-10-28 UTC
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kylewm tantek: re CORS this morning, were you saying that cross-domain sharing is a good thing that should be encouraged? if so I didn't understand what point you were making linking to /subdomain
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tantek kylewm - I was saying that using a domain as a logical boundary is a good thing.
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fiatjaf.alhur.es moved /Orkut_scrapbook to /Orkut "A sub-feature of a silo is not worth a topic."
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tantek what is Orkut?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Orkut
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kylewm tantek: still not sure I understand. would you encourage, e.g., a webmention sender that runs purely in the browser? because that would require CORS be allowed for the receiver's webmention endpoint
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fiatjaf.alhur.es edited /Orkut (+537) (view diff)
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bret fiatjaf: coisas looks really cool!
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bret aaronpk, tantek the uploaded graphic for vouch is the latest revision I made. I made some further revisions later that week based on feedback from you all during IWC that day.
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bret happy to swap it out for the hand drawn when I get the go ahead, or make further changes.
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tantek bret - cool, because I shared it with the socialwg :)
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tantek ok I'll do a closer review tonight
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bret other than minor spacing differences, the final revision I tried to follow as closely as possible to the original drawing
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bret gah english
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fiatjaf.alhur.es edited /GitHub (+240) "shameless self-promotion." (view diff)
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bret fiatjaf: not shamless! but people may come and as you for help
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fiatjaf bret: they're welcome
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fiatjaf thank you, bret
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bret err maybe shameless... not primarily self promotion!
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bret.io edited /GitHub (+215) "/* Criticism */ Added update on Github DMCA process" (view diff)
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kylewm coisas already has a very indiewebby name, like the offspring of PESOS and Cassis
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bret ha
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fiatjaf I always feel ridicule naming things.
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fiatjaf.alhur.es created /orkut (+19) "Redirected page to [[Orkut]]" (view diff)
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fiatjaf.alhur.es created /scrapboard (+2006) "Created page with "[http://github.com/fiatjaf/scrapboard scrapboard] is a [[CouchApp]] that replicates the functionality of the late [[Orkut#Scrapbook]], allowing people to post and receive scraps ..."" (view diff)
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fiatjaf.alhur.es edited /User:Fiatjaf.alhur.es () "(-1360) moved projects info to their own pages." (view diff)
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obra_
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bret anyone cryptographically sign their notes in a way that the WM recipient cant locate the public key to verify the signed post?
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kylewm bret: would that be in case you don't have https?
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bret no, more like "whoever wrote this note also signed it with this key"
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bret as in, say you really wanted to write something down and wanted to make sure people believed that you actually wrote it.
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bret Idea came to my head after thinking about the vouch protocol and what happens if you trust a source, and the ownership of that source changs
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snarfed bret: sounds like salmon
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bret snarfed: lol
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snarfed (didn't mean it as an insult! :P)
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ShaneHudson Why would you bother hiding the public key?
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bret was thinking it might be interesting to turn a "syndication" into a general purpose option link
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ShaneHudson You can definitely pgp verify notes, though I don't currently
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bret like "syndicate to twitter" "sign this note" etc
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bret (in micropub)
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bret just a thought. prob wont get to it for a long while
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ShaneHudson There is a JS pgp implementation, probably quite easy to use that to verify notes. Not sure about in micropub, but definitely from cms
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bret if you get a WM, and you see some key value regarding a signature, you can query/cache for the public key from the h-card url and then verify it, optionally adding additional UI indicators to the mention on your site
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bret a decently trivial addition to a WM endpoint
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bret (assuming you are using a crypto library.... which everyone should be doing)
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ShaneHudson Also means everyone should be able to login to indieauth with their key, which is nice (I need to sort that out)
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ShaneHudson I think it is a very good idea, not too complicated either (unlike salmon, if I understand correctly)
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bret finding the signing key to trust is the non-trivial part I guess
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bret or, deciding if you should trust that key you do find i mean
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ShaneHudson Ah, you mean the h-card could have been modifieD?
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ShaneHudson Yeah taking that into account makes it a lot harder
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ShaneHudson I suppose when you cache the key you could send a webmention saying "Hey, is this really your key?".. but then yeah you get into lots of issues there
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bret keybase.... save us!
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ShaneHudson Haha yeah keybase is pretty nice
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rascul oh, a new known
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rascul i'll have to check this out in the next few days
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ShaneHudson Known could do crypto by default, that would be really interesting
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@ShaneHudson @benwerd Hehe :) bret and I were discussing crypto in webmentions in IRC. Have you considered making Known pgp by default? (twitter.com/_/status/526924939698667520)
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ShaneHudson Loqi, you are spying again :P
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Loqi who, me?
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ShaneHudson Yes you! (ugh I tried not to reply, but I *had* to... even if it is to a bot lol)
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gregorlove.com edited /Orkut (+17) "dfn" (view diff)
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@jtauber @t some more indieweb-related posts of mine from 2004: http://jtauber.com/blog/2004/08/11/aggregation_versus_hosting/ http://jtauber.com/blog/2004/09/25/more_on_aggregation_versus_hosting/ and 2007 http://jtauber.com/blog/2007/08/18/thoughts_on_the_social_graph,_datalibre_and_aggregation_versus_hosting/ (twitter.com/_/status/526952306319687680)
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@benwerd Letting users download all their data is part of the bargain you make when you store it. It's not a premium feature. Not optional. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/526955141937643520)
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@jtauber @joeld the good news is that I'm committed to making @ThoughtStreams_ indieweb-friendly (twitter.com/_/status/526958762284707841)
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snarfed GWG: thanks again for reporting those missing likes. fixed in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/commit/018d4406cbf793b0bcdd1f66e28665d4c3e4c362
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snarfed (see https://www.brid.gy/facebook/100002356503167#responses )
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ShaneHudson Have any of you tried to get reading statistics from Kindle? It knows which books I've read and how fast I read... would be quite nice to post to my site :)
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@gruenderszene Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://www.gruenderszene.de/allgemein/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/527011710205722624)
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@startupbrett RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527011978834087936)
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@muellerwHH RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527013225771311104)
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@johnniehare Via #IFTTT: Privatsphäre: Das IndieWeb – eine leise Revolution http://www.gruenderszene.de/allgemein/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/527013926807306240)
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@timetabling RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527014399522119680)
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@kommunikationsm RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527014609497382912)
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@News_Leecher RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527016134760230912)
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@leonmrausch RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527016134743445504)
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@thoughtofyouapp RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527024526513930240)
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@jeremias_loock Das IndieWeb - eine leise Revolution https://www.linkedin.com/slink?code=dbA77jC (twitter.com/_/status/527041036942450690)
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@expertiger Privatsphäre: Das IndieWeb – eine leise Revolution http://www.gruenderszene.de/allgemein/indieweb via @gruenderszene (twitter.com/_/status/527078390314962944)
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GWG !tell snarfed The missing Facebook data came in the middle of the night. Odd
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@kirilind Back to the Web - intro to indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/presentations/2014/10/17/1/files/slides/?full#cover (twitter.com/_/status/527102088396804096)
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@davidmead I really like it @codeshaman. When @withknown figures out a WP import, I'll move lock,stock, and barrel to running it self-hosted. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/527104719714385920)
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@davidmead More than happy to jump on Skype one lunchtime @codeshaman. Chat about @withknown & #indieweb in greater depth. Be good to catch up too :-) (twitter.com/_/status/527105231050375168)
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www.tombruning.com edited /User:Tombruning.com (+1374) (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell snarfed I got a funny webmention from bridgy, sent to a target that is not my site: http://aaronparecki.com/webmention/2BPHXcL8
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske this time I didn't do that
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bigbluehat tantek_________: tantek____: hope to see you at TPAC today or tomorrow
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@DI_Innovation RT @gruenderszene: Privatsphäre im Web ist nicht unmöglich - und bietet Startups neue Geschäftsnischen. Leise Revolution IndieWeb. http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/527122694807257088)
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kylewm GWG: not that odd ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-27/line/1414477857934
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GWG kylewm: I keep hitting the jackpot on falling into buggy holes
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snarfed morning all
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Loqi snarfed: GWG left you a message 3 hours, 14 minutes ago: The missing Facebook data came in the middle of the night. Odd
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Loqi snarfed: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 52 minutes ago: I got a funny webmention from bridgy, sent to a target that is not my site: http://aaronparecki.com/webmention/2BPHXcL8
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snarfed GWG: they came right after i pushed the bug fix :P
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snarfed aaronpk: funny indeed. looking
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snarfed kylewm++ for explaining before me
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Loqi kylewm has 76 karma
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snarfed GWG: yeah, sorry you keep hitting them. they're basically all variants on the same theme: facebook's underlying data model for photos is flawed and mutable, which makes it tricky to use correctly over time
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snarfed aaronpk: out of curiosity, do you have a sender IP for that wm? i'm not sure bridgy sent it
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aaronpk snarfed: oh yeah you're right!
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aaronpk my server sent it!
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aaronpk that's odd...
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snarfed huh indeed
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aaronpk oh well
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snarfed what's your top itch right now, aaronpk? (other than real life, work, etc)
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snarfed (i only manage to make actual conversation while the baby's sleeping, so i'm taking advantage :P)
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aaronpk checkins
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aaronpk cause my month/day views are lacking them quite obviously now
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/2014/10
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snarfed ah, cool
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mko Checkins are fun. :-)
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mko I need to do a better month / year view.
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GWG snarfed, not the only thing I am hitting the jackpot on.
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aaronpk uhoh, bridgy is sending me a whole bunch of old webmentions
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GWG My phone has not worked since I returned
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aaronpk I am not deduping properly
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snarfed aaronpk: they might actually be new(ish)
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snarfed …or at least, new to your site
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snarfed due to a bug fix i pushed last night
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aaronpk did the URLs change?
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aaronpk these were definitely on there before
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snarfed ok
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snarfed facebook, right?
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aaronpk yeah the URLs are all different
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snarfed example?
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aaronpk as far as my site can tell they are new comments because the URLs are different, so I can't dedupe them
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/02/4/drhorrible search for "Saturday!" and look at both URLs
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mko Womp, womp. :-(
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snarfed aaronpk: ahhh. this is for an event
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snarfed ok
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aaronpk i saw a non-event one too i thought
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snarfed yeah? that link would be useful
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aaronpk no that's not an event
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snarfed ok. i'll debug
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GWG aaronpk, I am sorry.
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aaronpk ?
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snarfed aaronpk: oh weird. i wonder if fb changed an id format somewhere. the new urls have colons in ids
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mko Oh, the lovely behaviors of silos.
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snarfed yeah i hate how fb never migrates anything, just layers new stuff on top
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GWG aaronpk, I am usually the test case for Bridgy problems
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aaronpk lol
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snarfed oh there are plenty to go around
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snarfed GWG can count his blessings that he's only the test case for a small minority :P
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aaronpk snarfed: did the bridgy URLs change for facebook too then?
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snarfed aaronpk: not sure yet
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aaronpk I wonder if the "source" url or the mf2-parsed URL is the correct one to dedupe from
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snarfed baby's awake and unhappy now, may have to delay
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snarfed aaronpk: good q, i'm not sure either
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snarfed maybe it's a dupe if either matches
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GWG aaronpk, indieauth isn't working for me again.
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GWG aaronpk, I think because I removed SSL v3
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mko GWG: IndieAuth is working for me, and I removed SSL v3.
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GWG Then I am stumped.
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mko GWG: Note that it might still be related to SSL v3 because I just ran a check and apparently, even though I disabled SSL v3 manually on the server, Node is still using it and overriding my openssl config somehow.
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snarfed hey aaronpk, any idea when the bridgy dupe wms started?
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snarfed if it was around 1130 PST last night, i might know the cause
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aaronpk i think it was just now, 9:53am
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snarfed ok. and is it lots of posts? a few ?just that one?
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tantek mko - yikes re: Node and SSL v3!
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tantek what is SSL v3?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SSL v3" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SSL+v3
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bear.im created /SSL+v3 (+199) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Layer_Security SSLv3]</dfn>''' is an older version of TLS and is now considered insecure and should not be used. === S..."" (view diff)
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bear what is ssl v3
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Loqi SSLv3 is an older version of TLS and is now considered insecure and should not be used http://indiewebcamp.com/SSL%2Bv3
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mko ty bear
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mko bear++
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Loqi bear has 42 karma
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bear.im edited /SSL+v3 (+103) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /SSL+v3 (+0) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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bear added a link to why it is considered insecure
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bear mko - what your seeing with NodeJS is why I never let NodeJS be the one that binds to 443
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bear I always terminate SSL with haproxy or nginx
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mko bear: Yeah. I'm looking into moving that to nginx.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/12802152/363235400520063/1467397810 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-10-22-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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voxpelli mko: Are you running the latest release of Node? From last thursday? http://blog.nodejs.org/2014/10/23/node-v0-10-33-stable/
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gregorlove.com edited /SSL+v3 (+2) "/* See Also */ direct link" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /SPDY (+0) "/* See Also */ direct link" (view diff)
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mko voxpelli: Running npm latest (bleeding edge).
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tantek mko - is this issue documented on the /Node page?
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aaronpk whoa, taco bell dropped their website http://www.tacobell.com/
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aaronpk oh it's a publicity stunt
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aaronpk http://www.tacobell.com/Company/newsreleases/Taco-Bell-Mobile-app
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voxpelli mko: So 0.11 then? No blog post about it getting the same security release
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gregorlove.com created /HTTP (+216) "stub" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /http (+18) "r" (view diff)
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bear what is gregoralias
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "gregoralias" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gregoralias
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bear gregornobacktick++
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Loqi gregornobacktick has 29 karma
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bret KartikPrabhu_: what is the article called where you talk about moving to ||transport from wordpress?
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indie-visitor hello all
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davidpeach1 hello all. This is david peach (im logged on twice)
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davidpeach1 Ive got a bit of code I wanted to share for when posting status updates on WordPress website
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davidpeach1 http://davidpeach.co.uk/autofill-share-fields-for-status-posts/
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gRegor` davidpeach: Nice. You should link/document that on the /WordPress page too
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davidpeach oki doke will do
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snarfed also http://news.indiewebcamp.com/
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davidpeach.co.uk edited /WordPress (+297) "/* POSSE */ Added link to some code for autofilling content share boxes with what is typed in content - for status updates." (view diff)
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davidpeach.co.uk edited /WordPress (+0) "/* POSSE */" (view diff)
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snarfed aaronpk: wow, ok. so, as best i can tell, your dupe wms were all caused by a single rogue FB API call that returned badly formatted FB object ids with colons in them
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snarfed see all the "New webmentions to propagate!" lines in https://brid-gy.appspot.com/log?start_time=1414515151&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyGgsSDEZhY2Vib29rUGFnZSIIMTE1MDA0NTkM
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snarfed pretty bad failure mode on FB's part
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aaronpk weird!
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snarfed uh yeah
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snarfed not cool
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snarfed still, sorry for the trouble. :/ let me know if i can help with the cleanup
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snarfed aaronpk: if you d/l that log, grep it for 'New webmentions to propagate!', and extract the URL at the end of those line, that's probably all of the dupe wm u-urls
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KevinMarks_ http://gizmodo.com/the-great-web-1-0-revival-1651487835
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@kevinmarks “By moving back toward the early web, we're also recapturing an ability to actively reshape the internet” #indieweb http://gizmodo.com/the-great-web-1-0-revival-1651487835 (twitter.com/_/status/527220895660527616)
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tantek aaronpk do your notes still show realtime comments in response to webmentions?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: are you up for a live test of your /marginalia support?
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tantek bbiab
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@mathewi RT @kevinmarks: “By moving back toward the early web, we're also recapturing an ability to actively reshape the internet” #indieweb http://… (twitter.com/_/status/527221144253120512)
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@johnallsopp RT @kevinmarks: “By moving back toward the early web, we're also recapturing an ability to actively reshape the internet” #indieweb http://… (twitter.com/_/status/527221929782943744)
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bret microformat parsers handle the authorship discovery right? IE if it finds an author-url it will query that url for more details?
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Mark87 bret I have very limited experience, but I don't believe that, for instance, php-mf2 will do that. It will give you the list of rels and you have to check it yourself
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Mark87 which is one of the reasons I've been working slowly on my own solution
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@kevinmarks looking at Web #annotations ideas http://www.w3.org/2014/annotation/diagrams/annotation-architecture.svg from a #social point of view #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/527227582438064128)
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tantek aaronpk - just tried a real-time comment test on one of your notes
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tantek and looks like real-time comment display is semi-broken
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tantek in "realtime" it only shows the permalink (where the content should be) of the comment
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tantek when I reload your permalink page - e.g. http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/20/4/ then it shows the content in the comments
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tantek was going to try to demo real-time comments to joint meeting of Social Web WG and Annotations WG but not going to show just URLs showing up in real-time
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KevinMarks_ slides from evanpro: http://evan.prodromou.name/files/TPAC/
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tantek !tell aaronpk just tried a real-time comment test on one of your notes http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/20/4/ looks like real-time comment display is semi-broken. in "realtime" it only shows the permalink (where the content should be) of the comment. when I reload your permalink then it shows the content in the comments.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm bret: mf2 parser don't do the authorship algorithm (or really any contextual analysis at all). and maybe surprisingly, neither php-mf-cleaner nor mf2util will fetch a secondary url as part of the authorship discovery
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bret kylewm: is there a way to differ to a "primary" h-card with more information on a different URL?
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bret defer*
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kylewm bret: definitely according to the algorithm (indiewebcamp.com/authorship##if+there+is+an+author-page+URL ), but I don't know of an implementation that actually does it
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bret i though mf2-php got some authorship enhancements recently
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kylewm ah then maybe I am wrong!
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tantek bret, kylewm mf2-php is a library with many calls/functions
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tantek the plain parse microformats call just returns you JSON for the page
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tantek there's an authorship function too I think
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kylewm what is php-mf2?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "php-mf2" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=php-mf2
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bret tantek: neato, thats what I thought
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kylewm tantek: are you referring to https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2 ?
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bret but I wasn't sure if that was just "authorship" or mf2 had some kind of defer functionality built in
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kylewm I am skeptical -- do not see any reference to authorship in there -- but hope to be proven wrong
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tantek kylewm: I thought it was there - barnabywalters has referenced it often
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kylewm perhaps https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf-cleaner ?
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kylewm https://github.com/barnabywalters/php-mf-cleaner/blob/master/src/BarnabyWalters/Mf2/Functions.php#L115
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KevinMarks_ can I sign the http://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/ on #indiewebcamp's behalf?
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KevinMarks_ or do I do it as an individual?
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@weems RT @kevinmarks: “By moving back toward the early web, we're also recapturing an ability to actively reshape the internet” #indieweb http://… (twitter.com/_/status/527238442024202240)
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KartikPrabhu bret: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/redux
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KartikPrabhu tantek: did you live test marginalia? sorry I was away
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+478) "add OWFa" (view diff)
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bret starting an indieweb base template for jekyll (for deploying sites with gitpub). so fresh and so clean clean https://github.com/bcomnes/base
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jtauber KartikPrabhu: yes he did
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KartikPrabhu jtauber: hmm seems I did not receiver any webmentions though. did something fail?
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jtauber oh, he didn't actually add any annotation
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jtauber just a read-only demo
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KartikPrabhu aah ok :)
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fiatjaf what do you think of public messaging? is there a category for this?
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barnabywalters kylewm bret tantek: RE php-mf2, mf-cleaner and authorship: yup, php-mf2 is purely a parser, mf-cleaner is purely functional library over parsed data structures, i.e. bring-your-own HTTP
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tantek what is php-mf2?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "php-mf2" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=php-mf2
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tantek what is mf-cleaner?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mf-cleaner" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mf-cleaner
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barnabywalters wat http://indiewebcamp.com/php-mf2
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barnabywalters it certainly exists
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KartikPrabhu tantek: feel free to add marginalia for demo purposes to my articles. It should work fine from your own site.
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KartikPrabhu still haven't gotten to twitter support on that though
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barnabywalters but mf-cleaner has all the tools to implement a full authorship algorithm. You run getAuthor, and if that returns a string, try fetching it as a URL, parse and run getRepresentativeHCard over the result
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barnabywalters I’ll write a little blog post with some common microformats parsing techniques and caveats
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tantek KartikPrabhu: have you looked at displaying real-time comments support for your marginalia?
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tantek what is real-time comments?
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Loqi real-time comments are the display of comments on a view of a post (typically on its permalink) as they are received by the post (presumably via webmention), without needing any explicit user reloading, refreshing, or any other tapping/clicking etc http://indiewebcamp.com/real-time_comments
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barnabywalters this is how I use mf-cleaner in shrewdness, for reference: https://github.com/barnabywalters/shrewdness/blob/master/src/app.php#L216
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barnabywalters although that’s not yet using getRepresentativeHCard
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I have looked into real time comments that aaronpk had. Marginalia would be trickier
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KartikPrabhu but it would be awesome if I could get that working
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barnabywalters tantek: really nice work on /vouch, btw — looking forward to implementing that!
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snarfed fiatjaf: public messaging is probably just a note post with a link (and webmention) to the person's homepage
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fiatjaf snarfed: is anyone doing it?
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GWG Evening