#indiewebcamp 2014-11-24

2014-11-24 UTC
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aaronpk
"DNS scares people" <-- yes
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KartikPrabhu
and why make things more complicated
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rascul
scares dns
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gRegor`
Domain Name Scarers
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aaronpk
fiatjaf: interesting idea about the third-party webmention collection endpoint. I don't really see how it would actually work though
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aaronpk
because at some point you'd have to tell someone "hey go to this site to see all the webmentions you've been getting"
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aaronpk
and if there's one of these services, why wouldn't there be three of them?
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aaronpk
at which point people would have to check a bunch of places and each would have some subset of the mentions
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aaronpk
this also relies on webmention senders to hard-code one of these services as a fallback
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aaronpk
here's a more "indie" way of doing that
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aaronpk
if you don't accept webmentions and i've been linking to your site, I actually publish a page where you can see all the posts I've mentioned you in
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KartikPrabhu
yup was thinking the same thing
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aaronpk
(it's kinda fun to plug in random domains there and see what happens!)
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gRegor`
Ooh, I didn't know you had that, aaronpk
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aaronpk
it's relatively recent, only been there a month or so
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aaronpk
and i haven't figured out how to surface links to those pages elsewhere on my site
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gRegor`
"in reply to [domain] (all links to [domain]" maybe, for replies at least.
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gRegor`
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 612 karma
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aaronpk
I don't even have "in reply to" text
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gRegor`
Just realized that
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aaronpk
I make a point of not having any sort of third-person text
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aaronpk
the thing should be obvious when looking at it on the screen without explanatory text. that's why i spent so much time making my reply context look right.
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gRegor`
Yeah
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gRegor`
Something in the CSS seems to make it 48 x 50 instead of square
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aaronpk
wha weird
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gRegor`
Ah, the container is 48x48, but the .minicard .photo is height: 50
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aaronpk
i can't believe you noticed that
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aaronpk
don't we have some screenshots somewhere that show when twitter credited the app a tweet was posted with?
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aaronpk
it's not on the /twitter page
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gRegor`
Hehe, might not have noticed with someone else's photo. :)
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aaronpk
darn, was removed just in 2012. I wonder if I can fake a screenshot for illustrative purposes
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aaronpk
(that one's real btw. dug it up from my flickr account)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /giving-credit (+983) "adds a "crediting applications" section with some examples"
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aaronpk
well that was an unexpected tangent
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aaronpk
that's what I was actually trying to do
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aaronpk
that blog post was in my queue for 5 months
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ben_thatmust
aaronpk does this seem to be correct in its parsing? https://gist.github.com/dissolve/2911540317b48514f4c6
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ben_thatmust
probably more a question for tantek
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ben_thatmust
seems really weird having it parse as category then h-card as a sub-element, so i'm not sure if i'm doing something wrong
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aaronpk
that part is right
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aaronpk
very cool
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aaronpk
I *think* it is all right
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aaronpk
oh this is excellent news
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aaronparecki.com
edited /WebDAV (+4) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ link to skitch"
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GWG
What is excellent news?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "excellent news" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=excellent+news
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GWG
whaps Loqi with a dead trout
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aaronpk
is playing with webdav
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KartikPrabhu
what is webdav?
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Loqi
WebDAV is an HTTP-based protocol used to create and edit files on a server http://indiewebcamp.com/WebDAV
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KartikPrabhu
<sigh> so many protocols
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Isn't that the truth?
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aaronpk
I'm making a webdav -> flickr bridge right now. Next up is repurposing the code for webdav -> micropub
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GWG
aaronpk: To what end?
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aaronpk
posting screenshots using Skitch
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GWG
I'll look forward to the demo. You do put out interesting thigns
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aaronparecki.com
created /Skitch (+774) "what is Skitch?"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Skitch (+112) "add skitch 1.0 download link"
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aaronpk
lol at using skitch to take screenshots of the skitch setup process
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GWG
What is skitch?
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Loqi
Skitch is an application for OSX which can take screenshots, add annotations, and share the images to multiple destinations such as Evernote, FTP, or a WebDAV endpoint http://indiewebcamp.com/Skitch
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GWG
That's what I thought
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aaronpk
I use it multiple times per day
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GWG
Lots of screenshotting?
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kylewm
ben_thatmust: I think I missed the discussion, why is the person tag "p-category h-card"?
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GWG
kylewm: Because it is a tagging of a person?
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GWG
kylewm: I usually go with the flow myself.
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kylewm
is grepping the logs like he should have in the first place
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kylewm
got it, tag, person, duh
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GWG
Isn't that what I said?
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GWG
Of course, I'm usually confused about these things.
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GWG
I was half-asleep last time
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KartikPrabhu
not sure about the p-category on the person tag me-self
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@ServantApp
Simple Cloud Databases For Everyone: https://www.servant.co – #tech #apps #data #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/536787884359954433)
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@ServantApp
Build front-end applications fast with built-in monetization with this video tutorial – https://www.youtube.com/ #indieweb #content #apps
(twitter.com/_/status/536789069057888258)
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@gwadalug
RT @henri_nourel: IndieWebify.Me - a guide to getting you on the IndieWeb - We should all own the content we’re creating,... http://t.co/Vc…
(twitter.com/_/status/536794164328144896)
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@colgado
"The IndieWeb is a people-focused alternative to the ‘corporate web’." http://indiewebcamp.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/536795613766361088)
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ben_thatmust
!tell tantek does this seem to be correct in its parsing? the category and h-card ending up nested seems odd, but looks to be correct for the algo. Want to double check it is correct before i build on it. https://gist.github.com/dissolve/2911540317b48514f4c6
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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fiatjaf
!tell aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/links-to is the same as what a third party service would do, but done in your own site. if there are people outsourcing their webmention endpoints they could possibly outsource the 'links-to' service also. for people wanting to check webmentions of them, to check every website of the world for a 'links-to' section seems at least as difficult as checking a handful of webmention-storage-services.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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fiatjaf
!tell aaronpk: anyway, it is cool that you're doing it by your own. this is probably the best thing to be done (well, we still have the problem of letting the mentioned people know and grab their webmentions, but who cares).
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske.de
edited /git (+107) "/* Examples */"
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aaronpk
good morning
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Loqi
aaronpk: fiatjaf left you a message 4 hours, 38 minutes ago: http://aaronparecki.com/links-to is the same as what a third party service would do, but done in your own site. if there are people outsourcing their webmention endpoints they could possibly outsource the 'links-to' service also. for people wanting to check webmentions of them, to check every website of the world for a 'links-to' section seems at least as difficult as checking a handful of webmention-storage-services.
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Loqi
aaronpk: fiatjaf left you a message 4 hours, 36 minutes ago: anyway, it is cool that you're doing it by your own. this is probably the best thing to be done (well, we still have the problem of letting the mentioned people know and grab their webmentions, but who cares).
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mko
Oh, that's nice. I like that "links to" page.
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mko
aaronpk: How are you doing that analysis? Just scraping the links out and aggregating by domain?
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aaronpk
whenever a post is saved, it parses the content for links and adds the domains to a database table
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mko
Cool
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snarfed
current itch: de-duping native indie comments (likes, RTs, etc) and their silo POSSE copies
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kylewm
snarfed: oh lordy, me too ... i have the wikipedia page for Levenstein distance open in my browser at home
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snarfed
kylewm: omg why?
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snarfed
you don't think exact match is 90% good enough?
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gRegor`
Heh
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snarfed
or maybe stripping trailing … (if any) and then prefix match?
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snarfed
regardless. more importantly: glad to hear it's itching you too :P
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kylewm
yeah if i trimmed the @name and did prefix match, that would work most of the time
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snarfed
yeah, understood, i just wonder if it's overkill
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snarfed
but hey, whatever works
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snarfed
channeling tantek_, looks like this is all the wiki has so far: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#de-duplication
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gRegor`
I think I would check for syndication URLs on the received wms and compare against the URLs of the other wms
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kylewm
lots of good test cases on here right now https://kylewm.com/mentions
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kylewm
gRegor`: that's exactly what i used to do, but lots of people syndicate and add syndication urls after sending webmentions
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kylewm
(and then don't webmention again)
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gRegor`
ahh
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kylewm
so I wanted to add something fuzzier
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snarfed
hmm. kylewm you may have a point. the text may often be the same, or a prefix, but the html tags and formatting may often differ
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snarfed
maybe stripping tags and ignoring whitespace in the comparison would be enough
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snarfed.org
edited /Webmention (+415) "/* de-duplication */ text matching"
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi
tantek: ben_thatmust left you a message 7 hours, 21 minutes ago: does this seem to be correct in its parsing? the category and h-card ending up nested seems odd, but looks to be correct for the algo. Want to double check it is correct before i build on it. https://gist.github.com/dissolve/2911540317b48514f4c6
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gRegor`
Hiyo, tantek
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: great test case, it's an interesting challenge of both implying property names and minimal parent/child microformats objects
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GWG
reading up
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tantek
here's a general principle - the same markup for a property should not be causing that property to occur in *both* a microformat and one embedded inside - such a property should only be showing up on one.
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tantek
thus it's up to the parsing algorithm to be tightened up to prevent that
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GWG
aaronpk, I keep feeling like there are uncharted parts of your site I should be studying
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aaronpk
that is probably true
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aaronpk
I haven't figured out how to link to everything properly yet
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tantek
uncharted or unspidered? ;)
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aaronpk
some of them are linked from here http://aaronparecki.com/pages
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tantek
what is information architecture?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "information architecture" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=information+architecture
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tantek
what is a sitemap?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "sitemap" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=sitemap
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gRegor`
what is spidering?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "spidering" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=spidering
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gRegor`
aaronpk: http://aaronparecki.com/42 should link to everything. :)
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tantek
what is 42?
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Loqi
The Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything is … 42 http://indiewebcamp.com/42
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gRegor`
might do that on my site someday
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com (+44) "/* Interests */ sitemap"
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ben_thatmustbeme
ah, to which you mean name/value/name are all "Person Bee" in all those levels
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tantek
for anyone interested in iterating on /microformats2 parsing iterations to fix the example ben_thatmustbeme pointed out - I'll be chatting it up in #microformats
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: yes. /join #microformats
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GWG
Tantek, I will wait for the wiki
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gregorlove.com
created /sitemap (+69) "stub"
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tantek
reads-up about de-duping between kylewm, snarfed, gRegor`
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tantek
kylewm: "lots of people syndicate and add syndication urls after sending webmentions" - hmm, we can at least provide implementation guidance to do that in a better order.
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aaronpk
or at least suggest re-sending webmentions?
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tantek
- ah - after adding a syndication URL! yes!
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tantek
so that's easy - always (re)send a webmention after you add the syndication URL, even if that means you send more than one
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kylewm
I agree with that, but would still like some more relaxed matching, since some wordpress users still publish u-syndication inconsistently or not at all
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+489) "/* POSSE a reply */ add rel-syndication link, send webmention"
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tantek
kylewm - no disagreement, just trying to reduce the frequency that fuzzy matching is needed in practice.
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tantek
having a deterministic path to de-duplication when publisher and receiver are following the protocols is a good thing.
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tantek
s/deterministic/deterministic & dependable
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: having a deterministic & dependable path to de-duplication when publisher and receiver are following the protocols is a good thing.
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@jmsmcfrlnd
@newsycombinator @konklone it's not slack anymore; it's google ventures. Get out while you can. See @indie #indieweb https://ind.ie/
(twitter.com/_/status/536975303185551360)
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tantek.com
created /wikify (+23) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /welcoming (+3540) "Redirect Hypothetical Discussions"
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tantek
have been over 130 in the channel before?
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tantek.com
edited /welcoming (+87) "/* new person */ get them to wikify their personal stie itches"
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tantek.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (-135) "/* Established Meetings */ update organizers with templates, sort"
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@AaronGustafson
@susanjrobertson @murtaugh @tkadlec @adactio I got webmention publishing working via Rake. Will post tonight ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/536993840985812993)
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tantek
!tell benwerd,kylewm,snarfed I'll be in PDX for 2014-12-03 HWC - are you available to host Homebrew Website Club SF 12/3? Pick a location and add to wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
!tell aaronpk,bret,dietrich Where's HWC next week in PDX? I'll be in PDX 2014-12-03! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club#Where
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret
aaronpk, dietrich either of you in town Dec 3rd?
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Loqi
bret: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: Where's HWC next week in PDX? I'll be in PDX 2014-12-03! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club#Where
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bret
school homework and presentations will be over with by Wed... Freedom!
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bret
tantek: what brings you to pdx?
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bret
also... cool!
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tantek
we have a bunch of Mozilla groups gathering to do an in-person work week
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bret
sweet
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aaronpk
good afternoon
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Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 49 minutes ago: Where's HWC next week in PDX? I'll be in PDX 2014-12-03! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club#Where
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aaronpk
I will be here next week! Can host at esripdx!
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tantek
great!
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bret
Is it still POSSE if my syndication handler finished before my site publishes the new post? >;)
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tantek
bret - ouch
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tantek
you mean it's not sequential?!?
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bret
its a little bit easier to get the syndication data into my post file before publishing
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aaronpk
maybe find a way to build a single page of the site instead of building the whole site each time?
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tantek
I do this order: 1) live on personal site, 2) PuSH notifications, 3) Twitter POSSE, 4) Send webmentions
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bret
I just dont have file updating implemented yet
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aaronpk
tantek: when in the sequence do you update your post with the POSSE URLs?
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aaronpk
I assume between 3 and 4
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bret.io
edited /events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club (+53) "/* URLs */ Added calagator link"
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tantek
aaronpk - as part of 3) Twitter POSSE. When the API call returns with the tweet id, that gets saved back to Falcon storage.
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aaronpk
i forgot about PuSH. Do you have any idea how many consumers you have?
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bret
its the same application/event creating the Twitter posse and personal website post. so im just gonna go ahead and say it counts
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tantek
aaronpk - I have no idea since I delegate to Google's hub and they handle that
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aaronpk
does superfeedr tell you that kind of thing? That'd be a good reason to use superfeedr instead of the google one
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tantek
I know evanp used to subscribe from statusnet
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tantek
maybe paid stats?
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aaronpk
seems like something people (and/or brands) would pay for
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tantek
seems like something we should simplify so we don't need to use 3rd party hubs / bottlenecks
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bret
does anyone see an issue with rephrasing "syndicated to twitter/instagram"/"also on twitter/instagram" to "reply on twitter/instagram/your own site"?
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tantek
we just haven't gotten around to simplifying PuSH yet becuase not enough folks are using it to build a reader
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aaronpk
why? I'm a fan of making things possible to spin off as separate services if desired
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tantek
or rather, barnabywalters's is still getting charged for using superfeedr :/
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tantek
aaronpk - that's already possible
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tantek
I'm a fan of making things all indie implementable if desired
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aaronpk
indeed
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tantek
and that's more important than enabling more bottlenecks
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aaronpk
*if desired* is the key tho. don't want to require things be run individually
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tantek
anything that can be indie implemented can also be done as a service
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tantek
so I don't worry about the "as a service" bit
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aaronpk
webfinger as a service?
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tantek
the key testcase for this is static sites
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aaronpk
try delegating your webfinger to a service. that sounds hard.
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tantek
webfinger is not a feature, it's obsolete plumbing
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aaronpk
can't do it on static hosting
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bret
you can sort of
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aaronpk
can do it on apache/nginx with some clever rewrites
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bret
with .well-known
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tantek
more plumbing talk
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aaronpk
bret: sure you can implement it directly. my point is you can't delegate it to a service
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tantek
the use-case is user info/profile disccovery
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bret
ah i see
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tantek
which we already have with URL + h-card
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aaronpk
tantek: that's my point tho
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tantek
aaronpk totally unclear. why bring up webfinger at all outside of a use-case?
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aaronpk
webfinger can't be delegated to a service, so nobody is using it
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tantek
oh that's interesting
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tantek
so it's just badly designed
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aaronpk
you said "anything that can be indie implemented" and I wanted to point out a counterexample of somethign that also failed
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bret
aaronpk: want to post an indievent for http://calagator.org/events/1250467428 on your site RSVPs?
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Loqi
Homebrew Website Club PDX on Wednesday, Dec 3, 6:30pm at Esri Portland R&D Center
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tantek
aaronpk - ok good point
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tantek
I suppose I'm making certain design assumptions then for "indie implemented"
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tantek
which means my generalization doesn't hold. you're right.
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bret
did gmail ever turn on webfinger?
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aaronpk
bret: i dunno. this conversation isn't actually about webfinger tho ;)
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tantek
bret, aaronpk did calagator ever mark-up their events with h-event?
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tantek
and are they setup to receive webmention RSVPs yet?
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bret
i dont think so tantek
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aaronpk
they are mf2 events
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aaronpk
but no webmention rsvps
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bret
oh nice on the mf2
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tantek
your point about non delegatability?
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aaronpk
good idea
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bret
be aware, webfist was an attempt to delegate webfinger
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tantek
bret - do you use/support webfist on your own site?
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bret
nope, just pointing it out
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aaronpk
MAN... i really need an interface for creating events
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aaronpk
basically I want facebook's event creation interface as a micropub client
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bret
i had a webfinger profile set up on my own site for a bit though, not sure if its still working]
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bret
ownyourfbevent
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tantek
aaronpk - which is why I analyzed facebook's event UI ! http://indiewebcamp.com/event#Silo_Examples
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tantek
bret: ownyourevents
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bret
ownyourvents
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aaronpk
do you have documentation of the process of creating an event on FB?
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tantek
oh oops I was documenting just the *display*
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tantek
since getting that right is hard enough
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aaronpk
yeah heh
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tantek
I'm not particularly happy with *anyone's* UI for creating events
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tantek
I think they all suck
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aaronpk
maybe the new upcoming will be a fresh take on it
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aaronpk
IMO facebook's is the least sucky right now
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tantek
they all want too many required fields
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tantek
just to create something, get started
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aaronpk
that's why facebook's is nice! they require very little, and slowly add fields to the form as you fill them out
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tantek
seems like all the attempts to expand on natural language event creation have died
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aaronpk
maybe I should document this lol
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tantek
some work went into google calendar, and some into siri
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aaronpk
can confirm. was able to create an FB event *only* by typing "test" in the name field
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tantek
aaronpk, start with something higher level
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tantek
like, what would be the 'tweet' equivalent of creating an event?
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aaronpk
now it says "Today - Add a time?"
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aaronpk
and "Add a location?"
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tantek
that kind of prompting / wizard style is ok but still annoying
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tantek
because it has no idea what details to get next
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tantek
doesn't calagator have a good event creation UI/
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aaronpk
and the "add a time" part only asks for a starting time.
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aaronpk
then it says "end time?" after you add the start time
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tantek
of course nearly none of them let you simply paste a URL and go grab the h-event from it :P
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tantek
most events already exist somwhere on the web
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aaronpk
calagator almost does!
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tantek
having to re-enter everything is dumb
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aaronpk
"Import one or more events from a feed or web page in one of the following formats: Facebook, hCalendar, iCalendar, Meetup, and Plancast"
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tantek
were you able to paste the IWC event link into Calagator and have it "just work"
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aaronpk
they don't parse mf2 yet
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tantek
gh issue?
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bret
natural language event creation never seems to do what I want, google or apple
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tantek
exactly
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tantek
it's a dead end
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tantek
but demos well in goldenthreads
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tantek
makes it look all AI / scifi like
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bret
i use the clone feature of calagator
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bret
seems reasonable to get calagator to create events based on an h-event permalink
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aaronpk
especially now that calagator *publishes* h-events
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bret
gh repo issues should have silent +1 buttons (if the owner allows it)
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aaronpk
the "tweet equivalent" of posting an event sounds like just posting a note saying "drinks at bailey's at 5pm" with no structured data
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aaronpk
which actually is what Swarm added
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aaronpk
I find it interesting that they added that feature with no ability to add structured data (you can @-mention venues though) and no actual RSVP mechanism, just an "i'm interested" response and comments
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tantek
they could have structured it though
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tantek
e.g. by auto-linking "at 5pm" to datetime
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tantek
which you could click and edit
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aaronpk
that sounds like natural language parsing
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tantek
except the click & edit part
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tantek
it's the exact same problem as auto-completing people and venues
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tantek
same *UI* problem
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tantek
no difference other than base data set
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tantek
it shouldn't NLP *after* the fact (i.e. what google/apple do)
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tantek
but rather auto-complete *as you're typing* the way FB does with names
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tantek
the way Swarm does with names & venues
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tantek
this shouldn't be rocket science
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aaronpk
now you're giving me ideas for an event creation interface for Quill
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tantek
seems like this could all be wrapped into a single utility function you could call as people were typing a word
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aaronpk
the other big challenge with events is getting the address and lat/lng of the venue
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tantek
auto_complete_suggest(string, datatype, existing dataset) and it returns a list of suggestions
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aaronpk
unfortunately venues don't always have websites or if they do, don't have an h-card
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tantek
datatype = person, venue, datetime
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tantek
aaronpk - on your own site, venues always have a URL
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tantek
which has an h-card
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aaronpk
yes, but then you have to go create that
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aaronpk
which adds a lot of time to creating an event
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tantek
no you fallback to OSM
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tantek
and then create a local copy upon first use
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aaronpk
that's harder than it sounds
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tantek
I think tommorris already implemented it
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aaronpk
venue search is always messy
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tantek
so is people search
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aaronpk
and even then, what if the venue doesn't exist anywhere yet?
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tantek
and yet we have useful simple implementations of /nicknames-cache
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tantek
aaronpk - why you go all edge case?
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aaronpk
not edge case!
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tantek
the 99% case is venues already exist with a URL
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tantek
on Foursquare.com, OSM, etc.
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aaronpk
we moved into the esri office like 6 months ago
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aaronpk
brand new venue with no URL
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aaronpk
in order to get this page to look like it does, required a lot of entry https://aaronparecki.com/events/2014/12/03/1/homebrew-website-club
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tantek
is this because you don't post venues on your own site?
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tantek
(yet?)
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aaronpk
same thing, i would have had to enter the data on my site at some point
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tantek
presumably you've checked into that office before :P
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tantek
right, *once*
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tantek
and in 6 months you've been there more than 99 times
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tantek
ergo - <1% case is creation
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tommorris
tantek: mine is virtually nonexistent because the API is dead.
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tantek
which API is dead?
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tommorris
Can't remember the name
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tantek
something your code was calling?
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tantek
aaronpk - anyway, I'd just start with an export of all my Foursquare checkins
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tantek
heck, I still have my old dodgeball export too
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tantek
import all the venues in those to your own site
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aaronpk
i look forward to exporting all my foursquare checkins
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tantek
ownyourarchives as it were
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aaronpk
sadly I think that's gonna have to wait until after I refactor post types
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tommorris
tantek: CloudMade - was using it for doing the OSM lookups. I was hoping to replace it with my own search server before they killed it but life and work got in the way.
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@cedricgodart
IndieHosters: un projet européen pour recentraliser le web et démocratiser l'IndieWeb http://www.toolinux.com/IndieHosters-entend-recentraliser @IndieHosters @Indiegogo
(twitter.com/_/status/537023301495709697)
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tantek
tommorris: is an API to go from lat/long (from Web GeoLocation API) to list of venues?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /WebFinger (+423) "can't delegate webfinger"
(view diff)
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tantek
or address?
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tommorris
tantek: CloudMade used to provide an API you could call that you could give <x,y> to and it'd return you a list of N nearby venues from OSM. then they decided that they only wanted to deal with "enterprise" customers, by which they mean rich bastards.
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tommorris
you can call the OSM API (or a few of the read-only mirrors) but the OSM API is harder to use because you can't get it to give you back a filtered nearest-N-POIs-to-location. All you can do is grab a box and get everything in it.
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aaronpk
why not just use foursquare api?
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tommorris
aaronpk: poisoned well of copyright.
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aaronpk
i thought there was at least a permissive license?
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tommorris
the OSM API problem: if you are in the middle of the Arizona desert or out in the Scottish highlands, you need a much bigger box than if you are on Oxford Street or on the corner of Market and Castro. :)
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tommorris
but you can't know how big the box is until you get it back and it's too small. this means multiple back-and-forth queries.
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aaronpk
that's kind of a hard geo search problem in general
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tantek
aaronpk - hence use your archive
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tantek
aaronpk - wait what?!?
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tantek
isn't venue density fairly static?
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tantek
that sounds like something that could be summarized fairly easily
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tommorris
tantek: nope. in the city it is, but out in the countryside it isn't.
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tommorris
grew up in the countryside before moving to the big city lights. :)
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tantek
uh - public domain population maps, hash into maybe 3-4 size boxes (orders of magnitude from 2 blocks on up)
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tantek
that should be a few k of static data t most
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aaronpk
that'd be an interesting solution
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tantek
like enough to stick into a const array
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aaronpk
good luck getting anyone to implement it
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tantek
seriously - that's a really dumb problem
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tantek
what?!?
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tommorris
tantek: there are solutions, I've just been too lazy to implement them. :)
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aaronpk
as cloudmade demonstrated, it's not worth it to provide the service to small customers
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tantek
it's not a service!
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tantek
it's a const
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aaronpk
who would build it and why?
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tantek
same reason as olson - name it after yourself :P
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tommorris
the current solution I'm looking at is loading OSM into Solr and using that.
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tommorris
Or the nice people who build XAPI/Overpass implement the function. ;)
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aaronpk
pretty sure it's fine to use foursquare data as long as you attribute and link
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tommorris
aaronpk: personally, I like to contribute back to OSM. it might be a reasonable silo bridge for now, but ideally I'd like to get off it.
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tantek
yup, seems reasonable aaronpk
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tantek
what is Foursquare?
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Loqi
Foursquare is a location-based checkin silo that allows optional posting of a photo and/or a note along with a checkin http://indiewebcamp.com/Foursquare
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aaronpk
My plan once I get venues and checkins on my site is to just use foursquare search for any venues that are not already local on my site
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tantek.com
edited /Foursquare (+192) "API"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
running an OSM database is not something I want to do like ever
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tommorris
I kinda have one on the tower PC in my apartment. ;)
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tommorris
the problem is it isn't fast enough.
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tantek
aaronpk, ok here's the rough easy thing to do.
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tantek
for checking to see how tightly should you ask for venues (2 blocks, 1sq mile, 10sq miles etc.)
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tantek
look up the pixel of your latlong on this graphic (just keep it cached server side) http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Population_density.png
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tantek
and depending on the color, pick a radius
richardlitt joined the channel
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tantek
heck, do it in JS with Canvas API
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aaronpk
hahaha
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tantek
no seriously, why is this hard?
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aaronpk
that's clever
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aaronpk
what projection is in tho? how do you turn lat/lng -> pixel
gr0k joined the channel
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kylewm
how many venues are you expecting to have? > 10,000?
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tantek
mercator?
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Loqi
kylewm: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 18 minutes ago: I'll be in PDX for 2014-12-03 HWC - are you available to host Homebrew Website Club SF 12/3? Pick a location and add to wiki? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks!
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aaronpk
why doesn't it say?
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aaronpk
from looking at the data, i think you'd need higher-res density info for that to work well
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tantek
looks like mercator to me
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tantek
aaronpk 4k x 2k is not enough?
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@IFlck
RT @cedricgodart: IndieHosters: un projet européen pour recentraliser le web et démocratiser l'IndieWeb http://www.toolinux.com/IndieHosters-entend-recentraliser @IndieHoster
(twitter.com/_/status/537029625722204160)
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aaronpk
maybe tommorris has a better idea, but the data looks pretty coarse to me
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tantek
oh, just realized the ratio is ~2:1 same as latlong
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tantek
maybe it's just a direct lineary map?
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aaronpk
might be equirectangular
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tantek
so then it's just arithmetic
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aaronpk
anyway point is even within the portland city limits you need to use drastically different search radii. cause in downtown venues are stacked on top of each other, but out in SE not as much.
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kylewm
I can see the case for searching 1 block vs. 2 blocks dependning on density, but when are you ever checking into a place a mile away?
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tantek
really? why not use 2 blocks radius as a minimum?
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tantek
this feels like the kind of problem where a few quick numerical hacks would get you something pretty good
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aaronpk
this is even a problem on foursquare. sometimes the place I'm trying to check in is way too far down the list
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tantek
I've always wondered why the checkin "screen" doesn't show a 2d view
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tantek
and only shows a list
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aaronpk
the 2d view would not be very useful. too much stuff stacked
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tantek
really? in practice 99% of things have different addresses - zero stacking
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tantek
venues you'd check into anyway
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aaronpk
often too close to be able to tap on a map tho
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tantek
(not apartments etc., but ground floor restaurants, theaters etc.)
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tantek
but you can pinch zoom in/out a map
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aaronpk
so much effot
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aaronpk
way easier to choose from a list
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tantek
they already have that UI built in too! e.g. in explore!
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aaronpk
related, checking in from my pebble has been great cause it only takes a couple taps to find the venue in the list and click it
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tantek
also why I prefer checkie - speed
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tantek
not sure why the Swarm app is so much slower at getting a list of venues than Checkie is
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aaronpk
yeah seriously, and it's been getting worse
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aaronpk
gah I can't wait to do venues on my site
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tommorris
have you seen the Swarm UI inside the Apple Notifications panel?
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aaronpk
hasn't updated to iOS 8 yet
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aaronpk
oh nice
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tommorris
it shows you the nearest thing to you and you just tap the button to check in there
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aaronpk
man that might be motivation enough to update
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aaronpk
oh man then I can make my gps tracker do awesome things