#indiewebcamp 2014-12-27

2014-12-27 UTC
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tantek
Phyks - probably good to edit the wiki to note that the instructions do not currently have enough information to work.
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tantek
GWG - if you can confirm that OEmbed is causing a performance problem, we should document that in /OEmbed#Criticism
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GWG
tantek: Well, it is polling each site for an oembed because I used the WordPress code. I thought it would only poll the site if it was on WordPress's whitelist and that it cached the results. Apparently though, both of those things are done at a different level than I hooked in.
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tantek
why does each site need to be polled for an oembed? and what does that mean? polling it for an oembed endpoint? doing discovery of an endpoint?
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GWG
tantek: It doesn't. The code reference misled me. I need to rewrite my function
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aaronpk
ooookay I decided i'm going to launch my "likes" before 2015-01-01 to give myself a couple days of testing it out
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snarfed
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 638 karma
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tantek
that sounds imminently sensible aaronpk. I myself barely made my original 2010-001 commitment. ;)
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aaronpk
so I ended up with two "like-of" properties in my markup. one is an h-cite object and the other is the plain URL
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aaronpk
of course my own webmention handler was apparently only looking for a "like" property, so my first "like" post to dora's website failed
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GWG
There, 3 seconds down to .5 seconds
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GWG
If I add caching to the oembeds, it'll go down more
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snarfed
GWG++ wow nice, 83% speedup!
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Loqi
GWG has 42 karma
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GWG
I did a quick and dirty hack
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tantek
aaronpk - why not just publish the minimal u-like-of h-cite?
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tantek
and the fixed the consuming side?
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GWG
I only look for oembed code if the domain is on my whitelist.
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aaronpk
i'm fixing my webmention handler now, i was never looking for "like-of" apparently
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GWG
Also makes it easy to switch from oembed to things like the php-mf2 twitter option later
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tantek
aaronpk - who knows how many likes you've missed!
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GWG
Another few milliseconds if I cache the reply-contexts as WordPress Transients
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aaronpk
i know! I think i've seen some show up as generic mentions
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GWG
I've never liked you, aaronpk. But I'm trying to like more, so when you fix it, I may.
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GWG
I was too caught up in the semantics of it
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snarfed
aaronpk: huh. bridgy sends likes with u-like-of. are you sure you weren't handling it?
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aaronpk
i thought bridgy had both?
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snarfed
ah nm, yes
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tantek
snarfed, perhaps for 2015, time to turn off the old format?
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aaronpk
also now i'm handling the case when the comments are h-cites *or* plain URLs for everything
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tantek
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 639 karma
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aaronpk
(previously a repost-of that was an h-cite object would fail)
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tantek
snarfed - you could even announce it in advance - give whole days for anybody else to update their consuming code by 2015-001
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aaronpk
kind of an annoying block of PHP to traverse down the mf2 tree safely, but it is done and it works
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snarfed
tantek: lol. whole days!
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snarfed
but yeah, fair
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tantek
snarfed - whole days counts as moving fast and breaking things right? ;)
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snarfed
heh yes. bridgy's hopefully a bit beyond that, but hey
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tantek
snarfed, good enough for FB ;)
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snarfed
not any more!
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aaronpk
doesn't have the same ring to it
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tantek
wow 48 hour major bug SLA - that's nuts (impressive)
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tantek
Mashable with NOSCRIPT is downright tolerable! So much faster to load/read!
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aaronpk
wow yeah
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GWG
Just cut 9 more database queries.
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GWG
Can I give a ++ to the idea of installing a database query monitor to get rid of unneeded calls to a database, even though I know the database administration issue is a hot button one?
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aaronpk
well this is interesting
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tantek
GWG - you are merely proving the point
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aaronpk
should I be linking to the like URL in the facepile of likes?
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tantek
aaronpk IMO yes
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GWG
tantek: Even in a flat file system, you'd want to reduce loading unnecessary things. But okay
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aaronpk
i kind of think so, but haven't yet because most likes are just bridgy URLs
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tantek
GWG - of course, however in a flat file system, because it's *FLAT*, you are much more aware of the costs of each interaction
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tantek
aaronpk - modified: if you have an original URL for the "like" post, then yes, and if not, then the profile is the best you can do
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aaronpk
"original URL" meaning if the like mf2 markup contains a URL? so not just assuming the webmention source parameter is the like URL?
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snarfed
you should always have a url for a like, right? at minimum it's the webmention source
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snarfed
yeah, whether or not to use source is individual pref
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tantek
though Twitter has public favorites pages, so you *could* link to people's favorites pages, since Twitter doesn't have permalinks for likes
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aaronpk
that would be something bridgy could do
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aaronpk
i think right now it just links to the profile page
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tantek
aaronpk - from a UX perspective, by linking to the actual "like" posts, you provide verifiability / receipts
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aaronpk
yeah I like that idea
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tantek
something which will likely grow in importance as the indieweb works
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snarfed
fb renders individual likes in the activity loga pages, e.g.
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tantek
s/works/grows
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: something which will likely grow in importance as the indieweb grows
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snarfed
but the permalink goes to the post
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tantek
snarfed: interesting "Profile Unavailable … Sorry, this profile is not available at the moment. Please try again shortly."
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GWG
tantek: Either way, I've spent a lot of time on making my site better in the last 24 hours. Share in my joy.
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aaronpk
i'm glad i'm trying this out early! lots of funny things!
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tantek
fascinating re: friend/unfriend UX design: http://mashable.com/2014/02/02/facebook-growing-up/##weaker "Before Facebook, it required a deliberate effort to hold on to these weaker relationships. Now it requires a deliberate effort to get rid of them. It may not take much, technically — just scroll through a list and click "unfriend" — but it is an unnatural and severe action: You must make a conscious choice to delete
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tantek
person from your life."
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KartikPrabhu
opt-out vs opt-in
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GWG
Do they have to know I deleted them from my life?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I think it's more complex than that
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tantek
GWG - they are often unintentionally informed by Facebook resuggesting adding them as friends
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: s few years ago at least you would get an unfriended notification, but then they removed that
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tantek
or people browsing others profiles and noticing the "Add Friend" button
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GWG
Someone added me to an anarchist group on Facebook.
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tantek
that's a hilarious joke
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KartikPrabhu
"anarchist group" lol
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GWG
Not to me. This person was fired from my workplace.
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GWG
I thought they included me in the blame for a while.
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tantek
is it a form of griefing?
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GWG
I didn't want to find out
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@aaronpk
I am now publishing favorites on my website! https://aaronparecki.com/likes If your site supports Micropub... #indieweb (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/12/26/1/indieweb-20150101)
(twitter.com/_/status/548646968545660928)
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tantek
aaronpk++ congrats!
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aaronpk
thanks!
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aaronpk
I have a little bookmarklet and everything!
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tantek.com
edited /Facebook (+522) "/* Advocates */ add Mottos section with before/after"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - I wonder if a Browser plugin like what Barnaby built would help too
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aaronpk
definitely
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tantek
so you could "just" click stars and hearts on websites and have them do a post to your website
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aaronpk
cause the bookmarklet only works on permalinks obviously
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tantek
aaronpk odd ^^^ how is that not a retweet?
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aaronpk
i can't favorite things in a stream right now without clicking through to the permalink
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tantek
your bookmarklet could give you a list of the entries on the page if there's more than one and you could pick one.
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aaronpk
odd, she says that was supposed to be a "like"
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aaronpk
from the "press this" wp plugin
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tantek
looks like a bug with POSSEing to Twitter
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aaronpk
yeah the twitter copy was a bug. SNAP posted it
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tantek
kylewm: if you get a webmention from something you've *replied to*, perhaps it means - refetch your reply-context! e.g. https://kylewm.com/webmention/status/55c1fb94-7a3e-46eb-951d-02e4f67a0e4d
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GWG
aaronpk: I hate SNAP
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GWG
I really need to get rid of it
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aaronpk
tantek: is that an addition to webmention?
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tantek
kylewm, in this case, if you implemented reply-context CRUD, you would get an icon for the author in the reply-context :)
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tantek
aaronpk: it's part of reply-context CRUD: https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#CRUD
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aaronpk
an overloaded use of webmention?
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aaronpk
cause there is no link from the source to the target in the webmention you linked
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tantek
right, it's a very narrow extension: if your target is a reply to the source, then follow reply-context CRUD
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tantek
I don't know if anyone implements it yet, but it is a very reasonable minimal addition, and useful for examples likes this
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tantek
(nice to find a real world example)
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tantek
(of the use-case)
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GWG
I must read up on this CRUD
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aaronpk
yeah, interesting
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tantek
what is CRUD?
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aaronpk
I wonder how much additional complexity that adds to my webmention endpoint
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Loqi
CRUD refers to the ability to Create, Read, Update and Delete comments and posts https://indiewebcamp.com/CRUD
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tantek
GWG - see the https://indiewebcamp.com/CRUD#See_Also - CRUD typically refers to comment CRUD but can also refer to POSSE CRUD and reply-context CRUD
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GWG
tantek: I need to factor in for that, even though I haven't gotten to it
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tantek
GWG - you should be able to do it incrementally, it's designed for incremental understanding and implementation
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aaronpk
i'm trying to think how i would handle that case you sent to kylewm, tantek
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GWG
My code is dependent on pfefferle's webmention plugin. I really need to submit a pull request for documentation.
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tantek
aaronpk - I can extend the flow chart a bit
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tantek
it's more efficient to pre-check during the URL validity step
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tantek
than to wait until checking to see if the source links to the target
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tantek
that is
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tantek
in addition to "check the source URL to see if it is valid", if your source is a reply in-reply-to the target then do reply-context CRUD (instead of "normal" webmention processing)
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tantek
this also stops an unintented webmention feedback loop where you see the link from the original post back to your reply in the original's list of comments.
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aaronpk
ah yeah i've been wondering when that is going to come up
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tantek
it's an elegant solution and extension all in one
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@lohang
RT @sazius Looking at IndieWeb and the IndieMark. IndieAuth is pretty interesting: https://t.co/c6lWC6DlyM.
(twitter.com/_/status/548685498827698177)
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GWG
How long should a reply context be cached?
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aaronpk
indefinitely
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tantek
think of storing a reply-context more like an /indiearchive than a cache.
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GWG
And what if the context changes?
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tantek
are you asking about how to handle reply-context CRUD?
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GWG
I'm more thinking if the original source is not webmention capable
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aaronpk
I would still keep the original because that represents the URL at the time you replied to it
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GWG
I'm compromising and setting it to store the reply context unless the post is updated
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GWG
Problem with that is if I add new features...it won't update old posts unless I clear it.
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aaronpk
that is the reason I store the raw HTML in addition to the parsed data
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aaronpk
so I can delete the parsed version and have it re-parse the original HTML without needing to go fetch it again
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GWG
I'll just leave it saved unless updated for now. Needs more thought.
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@adactio
RT @kylewm2: Listening to Serial, thinking about how I can make #indieweb checkins legally verifiable alibis :p
(twitter.com/_/status/548822804700094465)
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@DaveCZombie
RT @kylewm2: Signed up for @huffduffer, loving the quietly magic indieweb things it’s doing, e.g. automatically built my user profile based…
(twitter.com/_/status/548824378839158784)
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known.phyks.me
edited /Known (+135) "/* How to use Quill */ Add infos about the fact that it may not be working."
(view diff)
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Phyks
I don't get what flattenMicroformats() should do, as it seems it's not doing much in the README example
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Acidnerd
elf-pavlik: what time is the federation assembly ?
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Acidnerd
and what room ?
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elf-pavlik
Acidnerd, in noisysquare and AFAIK no particular time
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Acidnerd
hmm i hope it's going to be livestreamed
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neuro`
Good morning.
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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aaronpk
man i've been getting a lot of imessage spam lately
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aaronpk
Phyks: I think flattenMicroformats() will return a list of all the mf2 objects without them being nested. so like if there is an h-card that is a p-author property of an h-entry, running the page through flatten will return all of the objects in a list
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davidpeach.co.uk
edited /2015-01-01-commitments (+67) "added completion date."
(view diff)
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GWG
Looking at Indiemark. I think I skipped some levels
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bret
cool updates on quill!
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GWG
Is it better to incrementally improve three projects or focus on one?
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Phyks
aaronpk: apparently not… the example in the README returns me `array(0 => $hEntry)` which does not seem to be the documented behavior
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elf-pavlik
hello #Indiewebcamp, anyone participating in 31C3? i already had chance to meet few folks doing https://events.ccc.de/congress/2014/wiki/Assembly:The_Federation
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aaronpk
Phyks: huh ok.. I've never used that method before
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GWG
Aaronpk, got a minute?
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GWG
If I hit a level of indiemark, but not the preceding level, how do I describe that?
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aaronpk
i guess you could say you're at level X and describe the additional things you have?
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GWG
I don't understand why web actions come before rel syndication links
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aaronpk
i think if there is anything like that you're unsure of, you should leave a note on the wiki page asking about it
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GWG
Good idea.
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GWG
I don't know if it is that 2015 commitment thing, but I am trying to fix a bunch of things.
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GWG
Share and respond... Hmmm I like that
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@VivaceTek
#VivaceNews Movimiento IndieWeb: redescentralizando Internet. http://linkis.com/ticbeat.com/nEJxI
(twitter.com/_/status/548941463921647617)
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david.shanske.com
edited /IndieMark (+145) "/* web actions */"
(view diff)
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Phyks
aaronpk: I contacted barnabywalters about it, thanks ;)
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tantek
I wonder what an indieweb friend suggestion service/algorithm would look like ("people you may know" or "suggested follows") - it could help indieweb folks connect and discover each other, beyond say the limits of the UX of this IRC channel.
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GWG
Well, how do you know who I know?
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tantek
GWG - sounds more like a sociology question rather than a technical one ;)
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tantek
interesting in our discussion of caching / refreshing reply-contexts yesterday - the same applies to *any* kind of /link-preview
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tantek
e.g. if when your code retrieves a link it returns a 500 server error, perhaps you should do something smarter than what FB does: https://www.facebook.com/NovemberProjectSF/photos/a.564546823681815.1073741985.276430682493432/564546950348469/?type=1&comment_id=564547877015043&offset=0&total_comments=2&pnref=story
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Phyks
tantek: +1 for the sociology part :)
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Phyks
(however this might not be that easy technically)
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tantek
Phyks - hence I asked the technical question open-endedly.
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GWG
tantek: Isn't that the first question in a friend algorithm though?
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tantek
GWG - not sure, it's not clear *how* to figure out a friend algorithm. Multiple approaches / experiments may be needed.
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tantek
s/friend/friend suggestion
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: GWG - not sure, it's not clear *how* to figure out a friend suggestion algorithm. Multiple approaches / experiments may be needed.
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Phyks
tantek: I know that when I first arrive on a new medium (either a silo like FB / Twitter) or blog or anything, first problem is to "make some friends" to get help and content
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tantek
Phyks this is a problem with aggregators, not with indieweb sites.
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tantek
When you first arrive on an indieweb site, you immediately get content.
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tantek
And you see links to other people that that person interacts with, reads, recommends, etc.
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tantek
That "new empty medium" problem is likely an indicator of the architectural flaw of silo-centric user models.
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tantek
s/of the/of an
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: That "new empty medium" problem is likely an indicator of an architectural flaw of silo-centric user models.
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Phyks
hmmm, yes but I don't know of easy ways to get this to me
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Phyks
for instance if I had indieweb stuff to my website, I'd like other users to know that "somebody joined the indieweb "network"" or something like this
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tantek
whereas if you click through - the link itself works fine
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Phyks
tantek: nope, not me
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Phyks
I clicked on the link
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tantek
it should be public
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tantek
no - on the FB display of the comment with the link, it provides an image and "500 - INTERNAL SERVER ERROR"
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tantek
perhaps any receiver of a webmention, even just mentions, should consider sending *back* a webmention, whenever they (the original target) is updated.
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tantek
expanding the reply-context CRUD use-case to *any* /link-preview CRUD use-case
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aaronpk
instagram updated their info about what usage of the comments API is allowed
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aaronpk
now ownyourgram properly handles videos from instagram!
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@hugoroyd
New cert and new domain for my indieweb homepage: http://hugoroy.eu (also with https) @withknown [until DNS propagates]
(twitter.com/_/status/548982625684422656)
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