#indieweb

2015-01-21

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tantek.com
edited /2014-review (+125) "/* Indie Term Re-use */ criticism overlap" (view diff)
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@elfpavlik
@murdelta let's discuss doing @indiewebcamp at http://barcamp-graz.at/2015/01/barcamp-graz-2015-termin-location/ we already plan to hack in Graz mid Apr with @elevate_dan @peacekeeper (twtr.io/vM7T73n4bH)
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@textformer
Just bought my tickets for the next @btconf and @indiewebcamp in May in Düsseldorf. http://beyondtellerrand.com/ http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany (twtr.io/vM7twFckPC)
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@btconf
@textformer @indiewebcamp welcome on board! Looking forward to say hello. #btconf (twtr.io/vM7y1wCek4)
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@elfpavlik
.@IndieHosters we discuss with @fkooman idea to deploy instance of https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com on https://auth.indiehosters.net +/-1? #IndieWeb (twtr.io/vMDqzvpCtL)
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fkooman
aaronpk: hi! i am having some problems with using indieauth with 'https://www.tuxed.net/fkooman', can you see what is going on? sometimes there is a TLS error, sometimes it doesn't find and rel links, sometimes only GitHub, but continuing with GitHub still doesn't work then :(
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Loqi
Welcome to news about the IndieWeb where recent notable articles about the IndieWeb are cited and linked to keep you up to date https://indiewebcamp.com/going_on
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michielbdejong
fkooman: if you click Re-Scan it gets the SSL error. But if you refresh the page it recognizes github.
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Loqi
michielbdejong: KartikPrabhu left you a message 3 days, 9 hours ago: getting errors while webmentioning your Known site: https://indiewebcamp.com/Known#The_target_page_does_not_exist
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Loqi
michielbdejong: tantek left you a message 2 days, 11 hours ago: I've tried sending webmentions to your new Known site but keep getting 400 errors, documented details here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Known#The_target_page_does_not_exist maybe a problem with your htaccess or Known configuration?
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michielbdejong
This might be because of the bug where the IndieAuth server needs to be restarted every hour
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michielbdejong
Maybe it will work in one hour
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@USEReadyInc
Check out the BOLD NEW LOOK of @USEReadyInc http://www.useready.com #OwnYourData (twtr.io/vMHRUm51eC)
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@lkafle
RT @salisburymw: I hope my #BRCA testing saga helps to shed light on the problems facing genetic testing. #ownyourdata @techonomy http://t.… (twtr.io/vMHnBzkNmR)
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michielbdejong.com
edited /Known (-180) "/* The target page does not exist */ mention workaround webmention problem" (view diff)
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@prash8187
RT @USEReadyInc: Check out the BOLD NEW LOOK of @USEReadyInc http://www.useready.com #OwnYourData (twtr.io/vMKF94Q0Rc)
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michielbdejong
!tell tantek thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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michielbdejong
!tell KartikPrabhu thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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elf-pavlik
michielbdejong, http://lanyrd.com/2015/indiewebcampger/
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elf-pavlik
and in case you come hacking with us in Graz mid April we could try make one there as well :) https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/557821334324248577
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@elfpavlik
@murdelta let's discuss doing @indiewebcamp at http://barcamp-graz.at/2015/01/barcamp-graz-2015-termin-location/ we already plan to hack in Graz mid Apr with @elevate_dan @peacekeeper (twtr.io/vM7T73n4bH)
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@murdelta
@elfpavlik @indiewebcamp @elevate_dan @peacekeeper Do you have any more information or are you just in early planning? (twtr.io/vMTBZdvnC0)
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@USEReady_DH
RT @USEReadyInc: Check out the BOLD NEW LOOK of @USEReadyInc http://www.useready.com #OwnYourData (twtr.io/vMZZyA9AYY)
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Phyks
bret: ty :)
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GWG
I need some advice. Playing with models on my test site. Still needs refining, but if you go to tiny.n9n.us and click a photo, how does it look?
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@elfpavlik
@murdelta just an idea, i need to check if at least one seasoned #IndieWeb participant could join! @marcthiele /cc @elevate_dan @peacekeeper (twtr.io/vMiEfQ8xb0)
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@pfefferle
@dougmckown I would start with the indieweb plugin https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb and/or with that wiki page http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress (twtr.io/vMiKdw1jf_)
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rascul
http://tld-list.com
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi
tantek: michielbdejong left you a message 6 hours, 36 minutes ago: thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
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voxpelli
good morning tantek!
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tantek
catches up on logs
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KartikPrabhu
so wordpress shows up as "bad" on HTTPS support: https://httpswatch.com/global
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GWG
How so?
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: michielbdejong left you a message 6 hours, 42 minutes ago: thanks for reporting the webmention error, I found a workaround for it, should be working now.
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: see link
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GWG
Doesn't surprise me. But it makes it look like the open source software is
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kylewm
this is wordpress.com not wordpress in general, right?
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GWG
Yes.
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GWG
WordPress the platform is as HTTPS as the person hosting it makes it
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Loqi
[mention] http://luigimangili.it/?p=5 linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/Principles (pingback)
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@Nadreck
@rstevens Look into Known. New system, indieweb focused. (twtr.io/vMwU7jtG14)
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upon2020.com
edited /Events (+555) "should have added this earlier" (view diff)
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@BennyLindemann
Gerade gefunden: @wallabagapp Eine #DIY Alternative zu @pocket oder @instapaper Setup auf nem #RaspberryPi folgt! #OwnYourData #privacy (twtr.io/vMxZXoPKAx)
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@kevinmarks
RT @Nadreck: @rstevens Look into Known. New system, indieweb focused. (twtr.io/vMy7EHTvJR)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: perhaps add that httpswatch thing about wordpress dot com to indiewebcamp.com/WordPress.com in a Criticism section?
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tantek
!tell michielbdejong yes it worked! I got a 202 with that same curl command and the like showed up: https://michielbdejong.com/2015/joining-the-indie-web-my-motivation-cc-by-michiel-de-jong#comments Thank you for updating the Troubleshooting!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
michielbdejong++
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Loqi
michielbdejong has 6 karma
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GWG
I still need an opinion, if anyone is available.
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GWG
I can't figure out the best way to do something
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pdurbin
bret: do you remember chatting with me and tantek about DOIs? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-17#t1400365557000 ... this was interesting: http://crosstech.crossref.org/2015/01/problems-with-dx-doi-org-on-january-20th-2015-what-we-know.html
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bret
heh, i do now pdurbin! ill check it out
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aaronpk
fkooman: i'm getting an error that your ssl cert doesn't match the name, but it works fine for me in the browser
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bret
pdurbin: that is super lulzy
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tantek
pdurbin: wow.
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aaronpk
tommorris had a great post about that https://tommorris.org/posts/9194
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bret
documents need to cache their own references if they actually care about longevity, pointers cant be trusted long term!
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voxpelli
I'm thinking of highlighting where a WebMention was posted and if it was posted through a third-party site, but can't really find any thoughts on how to best do that in the wiki
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bret
also “let’s just give a number to everything” is about as antiquated as the phone number system lol
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voxpelli
I noticed that eg. aaronpk only shows origin of mentions through favicons-like icons in the facepile
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pdurbin
aaronpk: interesting. hadn't seen that
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aaronpk
voxpelli: where a webmention was posted? how do you mean?
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voxpelli
aaronpk: I meant on the site a WebMention mentioned
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voxpelli
I was thinking something like "Published 2 days ago on [twitter.com] through [brid.gy]"
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aaronpk
the icons I show are just twitter, facebook and instagram icons if the author URL matches that domain
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aaronpk
I do something like that when I show vouched mentions now
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voxpelli
Would love to give some cred to indieweb friendly tools like brid.gy and I guess something like app.net if they were to send WebMentions themselves
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aaronpk
ah gotcha
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aaronpk
there isn't really a mechanism in the webmention protocol for the webmention sender to authenticate itself
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voxpelli
Twitter showing which apps a tweet was posted through was probably key in creating the thriving ecosystem it had
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aaronpk
totally. people are already doing that with micropub posts
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voxpelli
Yeah, I was thinking of initially matching the hostname of the source URL and the h-entry URL – source URL being Brid.gy, the h-entry URL being eg. Twitter
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aaronpk
take a look at my notes or photos, they'll say "posted via quill.p3k.io" or "posted via ownyourgram.com"
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voxpelli
cool!
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voxpelli
Would it make sense to mark that data up so it could show on other sites pulling in that comment as well?
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aaronpk
interesting
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aaronpk
have there been any other webmention proxys or senders?
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voxpelli
I guess some tools both do the micropub publishing and the pinging or such?
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voxpelli
like https://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub I guess
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aaronpk
there's also a difference between something like bridgy which is a proxy for webmentions vs things like the page on indiewebify.me which can send webmentions on your behalf
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aaronpk
the difference is bridgy creates source URLs on its own, but indiewebify.me uses your own source URL
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voxpelli
ownyourgram and bridgy is kind of similar only that ownyourgram pushes the data to your site whereas bridgy creates its own source URL
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voxpelli
so if ownyourgram were to trigger webmentions it could be interesting to highlight it as the app/tool in WebMentions – and also in IndieReaders
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aaronpk
oh like ownyourgram could send webmentions for comments on the instagram photos it posted?
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aaronpk
(i'm unlikely to make it do that because bridgy already handles instagram, but I get your point)
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voxpelli
yep, and my endpoint showing the mention as "posted 1 day ago on aaronparecki.com with ownyourgram"
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voxpelli
so if that data could just be marked up somehow as part of the h-entry that would enable discoverability of tools in all readers
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tantek.com
edited /Ello (+89) "/* See Also */ add oodbye.co critic site" (view diff)
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aaronpk
i like the idea. thinking about how to display it and how to determine what was used for webmentions
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voxpelli
aaronpk: can't really find the "posted via quill.p3k.io" on your site, am I perhaps looking in the wrong place?
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aaronpk
here's one http://aaron.pk/b4_B1
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voxpelli
seems like you are already marking it up with u-client-id, great!
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aaronpk
oh hey!
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aaronpk
forgot I did that ;)
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voxpelli
and then there's http://indiewebcamp.com/h-x-app on the Quill page, nice!
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aaronpk
yes!
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aaronpk
indieauth.com parses that to show the app name and icon when you're signing in
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aaronparecki.com
edited /h-x-app (+517) "add quill and wiki examples" (view diff)
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aaronpk
so i'm totally stumped on this fkooman thing
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aaronpk
when the server is running the indieauth.com code, it gets an ssl error trying to fetch https://www.tuxed.net/fkooman/
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aaronpk
but when I go to the server and drop into the interactive shell, I can fetch it just fine
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aaronpk
fkooman: the server doesn't seem to have any problem fetching https://tuxed.net/fkooman/ ... is there a particular reason you're using the "www" prefix?
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@mshook
Bridgy https://www.brid.gy/ #via #viavia #known #withknown #social #indieweb (twtr.io/vN4x40SNdx)
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@4winner
RT @Nadreck: @rstevens Look into Known. New system, indieweb focused. (twtr.io/vN9gBW4i9s)
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cweiske
is anyone using the firefox social api for his micropub client?
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tantek
this is good: https://tommorris.org/posts/9194
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tantek
sees that tommorris 's site supports receiving webmentions but wonders if likes are displayed anywhere (or fallback to comments)
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cweiske
semanticscuttle (bookmark manager) using the firefox social api for bookmarking: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-01-21%20firefox%20semanticscuttle%20social%20api%20bookmarks.png
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kylewm
cweiske: Known has a social API post interface, but not micropub
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cweiske
native browser support for bookmarking and sharing
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cweiske
isn't that what indieactions wanted?
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GWG
KevinMarks_: Get Jeff Jarvis onto the Indieweb?
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GWG
To stop posting snippets on his own site and full pieces of his book on medium?
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KevinMarks_
he's not on this week - at Davos
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GWG
Oh well
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GWG
How about getting me some people for an HWC in NYC?
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GWG
You could also recruit for SFO, CHI, PDX, and wherever else they are looking
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GWG
STL and BLI are looking too, according to http://indiewebcamp.com/hwc
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tantek
This is an interesting idea for /create UI: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/557309622378172416
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@shanley
is there a text editor that you write in it like a twitter interface lol (twtr.io/vJ4eMHKgDb)
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tantek
and follow-up: https://twitter.com/iroc/status/557317278002188290
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@iroc
@shanley I have long wanted some kind of service where you can chat w/ an intelligent bot or rep in an IM window as a way to churn out ideas (twtr.io/vJ7PSV3TrW)
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tantek
isn't that kind of what we have in #indiewebcamp IRC? "write in a like a twitter interface" (limited to n? chars)
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tantek
though Loqi is not quite "can chat w/ an intelligent bot"… yet ;)
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sebastian.kip.pe
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+458) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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voxpelli
Is there a mf2 equivilant to rel-home? Or what's the prefered way to point out the frontpage on eg. a h-entry page?
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bret
voxpelli: isnt that just the URL of the author?
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tantek
voxpelli: since it's a page-to-page relationship, not sure what else you need beyond rel-home
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tantek
as in - what use-case are you trying to solve?
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voxpelli
tantek: trying to add a "posted 2 days ago on <site name>" to comments
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rascul
ponders serving his site from ramdisk
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tantek
voxpelli: that sounds like you're looking for h-feed p-name
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voxpelli
tantek: I want a link for it as well though
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tantek
oh wait you said *comments*
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Loqi
gives voxpelli a link for it as well though
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aaronpk
rascul: doesn't the OS cache stuff in RAM anyway?
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voxpelli
commentas as in WebMentioned imported h-entries
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tantek
presuming you're already using h-cite to markup comments
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tantek
then use p-publisher for marking up the site name / source
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rascul
aaronpk yes but there's no way to be sure it stays there or for how long
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rascul
well, not without a bunch of hacks anyway
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tantek
looks for an example
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aaronpk
i bet someone has tried this before
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bret
rascul: do you use config management at all for your servers?
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rascul
bret i don't
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tantek
sounds like work
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rascul
ramdisk is easy :)
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voxpelli
tantek: sorry for not being clear with what I'm doing – so I'm importing a post after they have WebMentioned me and I want to link to the front page of the site that the original post was posted on – not the author archive
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aaronpk
voxpelli: under what circumstances do you expect the "front page of the site" to be different from the author's URL?
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tantek
I'd agree with aaronpk - why "front page" of the site? there's no proof that the post was ever on the "front page" of the site
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voxpelli
aaronpk: multi-author blogs for example
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rascul
i'm doing big server changes right now though, so site changes aren't viable for me quite yet
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tantek
and thus the text "posted on …" is potentially misleading
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voxpelli
or indie-friendly sites like app.net
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bret
rascul: i just started playing with ansible over the last few weeks, captured a lot of my dev machine configuration into a repository: https://github.com/bcomnes/ansible-dotfiles next step is capturing server config
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tantek
voxpelli: seems like noise in the UI on your side
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rascul
bret i'm building tiny, single purpose read only virtual machines with buildroot to run things in
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bret
ahh
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bret
cool
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tantek
voxpelli: consider instead "posted using …" (name of tool or site)
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bret
complexity--
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Loqi
complexity has -1 karma
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tantek
which has more prior art
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voxpelli
tantek: it would add nice discoverability for tools though + many are already hard-coding similar solutions for the biggest silos, highlighting content from just twitter and similar
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tantek
then "Posted using …" not "Posted on ..."
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Loqi
[bridgy] ♕ Suzanne Zaleski ♕ replied '@gRegorLove how is mommer doing?' to a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-01-28-homebrew-website-club (https://twitter.com/MsSwank/status/558013135932899330)
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tantek
and yeah I've been using poshformat class name for "using" for sometime
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voxpelli
sure, would rel-home be the right thing to use then for "site"?
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rascul
bret when i get it running (almost there, just got over the last major hurdle) i'll work on publicly documenting what i did, someone might find it interesting
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tantek
it would - however it wouldn't give you something accurate for "Posted on …"
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tantek
since like I said - any particular post might not have ever been on the "home" page
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voxpelli
I meant for your suggestion of "Posted using..."
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aaronpk
here's more prior art for this... hackernews!
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aaronpk
it shows the domain name of the URL of submissions
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tantek
voxpelli: no - rel-home is not right for "tool"
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tantek
more like the work that aaronpk has been doing with micropub and app
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tantek
and linking to the *tool* home page, not the home page of the person posting
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KevinMarks_
rel-generator?
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tantek
anybody use that KevinMarks?
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aaronpk
I used "u-client-id" in my markup because it's the value of the client ID used during IndieAuth
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voxpelli
tantek: arronpk's work on tools was what I'm going to use, the u-client-id, but wanted more
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tantek
e.g. for your Tweet compilations … does it say noterlive? ;)
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KevinMarks_
that's the atom name for it, from hAtom
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tantek
yeah client-id sounds like an opaque number / code
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voxpelli
ideally I would like the same discoverability of tools as Twitter had when their ecosystem was thriving – every tweet having a link to the app which posted it – doing the same for eg. brid.gy would be nice – will just try something with client-id then
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tantek
what are tools?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "tools" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=tools
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tantek
voxpelli: now that is a very good use-case. please stub it out there ^^^
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tantek
capturing such use-cases is very valuable
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voxpelli
will do
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voxpelli
btw, known that the wiki doesn't redirect to https but that indieauth only logs you in on https, not http?
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aaronpk
yes it's confusing
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aaronpk
I want to redirect everything but need an image proxy first to avoid mixed content warnings
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GWG
aaronpk: I know a cheap CDN that supports https, if that helps
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aaronpk
not really. I need to figure out how to make a mediawiki filter that can rewrite hotlinked image URLs
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aaronpk
and then run an image proxy somewhere
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kodfabrik.se
created /tools (+765) "First stab at writing down thoughts around tools discoverability" (view diff)
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voxpelli
aaronpk: perhaps you can take a look at that page and add some of your thoughts as well=
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aaronpk
oh hey i just remembered there's a whole section on that here http://indiewebcamp.com/giving-credit#Crediting_Applications
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GWG
is reading the /photo page
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GWG
Anyone have any good photo post thoughts?
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aaronpk
just had a thought
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aaronpk
the work snarfed and I did in webmention.io to make it show nice sentences here is great, and I don't want to re-create the logic in PHP for my site
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aaronpk
I'm wondering if I can have my site send a copy of all my webmentions to webmention.io so that it generates the text for me
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voxpelli
aaronpk: giving-crdit, nice! makes the new page unnecessary for now :P
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aaronpk
or perhaps we can move the crediting apps section to tools, since the credit page also talks about crediting people
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kylewm
!tell snarfed I'm looking at the facebook API, it seems there is no way to find a post ID from its URL anymore?? (or a user ID from their username). I must be wrong right?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
oh yeah the facebook API is super broken
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aaronpk
what else is new?
#
kylewm
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 669 karma
#
kylewm
!tell snarfed here's an example, I tried to like this status, got a 403 because you can't look up the post by its bare ID https://kylewm.com/2015/01/burn
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
snarfed
kylewm: looking
#
Loqi
snarfed: kylewm left you a message 13 minutes ago: I'm looking at the facebook API, it seems there is no way to find a post ID from its URL anymore?? (or a user ID from their username). I must be wrong right?
#
Loqi
snarfed: kylewm left you a message 2 minutes ago: here's an example, I tried to like this status, got a 403 because you can't look up the post by its bare ID https://kylewm.com/2015/01/burn
#
snarfed
i've been working in this area a lot recently for https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/349 , https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/347 , etc
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snarfed
ah. yes. for a url like that - https://www.facebook.com/stephanie.rodgers.980/posts/10100784173551758 - you may have to look up graph.facebook.com/v2.2/stephanie.rodgers.980, grab her id, then prefix it to the post id
#
snarfed
sucks huh
#
kylewm
i've been following along, that's what made me hopeful that you could lookup by username
#
Loqi
hehe
#
kylewm
that second lookup doesn't work though
#
snarfed
by bare username yes, but they don't usually support USERNAME_OBJECTID
#
snarfed
well you need a token :P
#
kylewm
"message": "(#803) Cannot query users by their username (stephanie.rodgers.980)",
#
kylewm
no i'm doing it in the API Exploder
#
snarfed
ahhh right. works for pages, but not for users? huh
#
snarfed
ugh, then yeah, you did all your homework. maybe via search?
#
snarfed
hrmph
#
snarfed
so one hard problem in sw/system development is schema migration without downtime. you can do it by supporting both old and new while you transform old data, then remove the code paths for the old
#
kylewm
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/26062011/facebook-graph-api-2-1-get-userid-from-username#comment40836448_26062011
#
snarfed
FB is good at the availability ("without downtime") part, but awful at removing the old code paths
#
snarfed
they never do
#
snarfed
that's (imho) the primary cause of aaronpk's "super broken" comment
#
aaronpk
what's my super broken comment?
#
snarfed
oh nm kylewm said that :P
#
kylewm
aaronpk just agreed with me
#
snarfed
anyway, keeping all old code around leaks up above the API and causes problems like this :/
#
snarfed
(obligatory: migration is hard, let's go shopping)
#
kylewm
but this is a feature that was explicitly removed in 2.0 right?
#
snarfed
just read the SO post. are you effing kidding me, you can't look up by username any more?!?!?!?!?
#
snarfed
(and i've seen wizkid on other FB SO q's, he generally knows what he's talking about)
#
snarfed
ugh, horrible
#
kylewm
it's bad news for Bridgy Publish doing any kind of replies/likes/shares of facebook posts :(
#
snarfed
yes, yes it is :(
#
kylewm
and it also makes it impossible for me to fetch reply context from a facebook post
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#
snarfed
what i *still* don't get is when a bare post id will work and when it won't
#
kylewm
yeah, that is very confusing
#
snarfed
sometimes i think it's consistent to certain post types, but i always find a counterexample
#
snarfed
in other news, i went through FB review for the read_stream permission for a-u and got rejected :(
#
kylewm
ah interesting
#
kylewm
but you can just have people generate their own app id like for twitter-atom right?
#
snarfed
and they've explicitly denied it to feed reader use cases before, and talked to press about it, so i didn't bother applying for facebook-atom
#
snarfed
yeah that's what i'll have to do for fb-a
#
KevinMarks_
talking knowledge graph and microformats on TWiG
#
snarfed
what i find funny is that they explicitly endorse an app that asks you to generate yoru own app key for personal use
#
snarfed
finding the link
#
GWG
KevinMarks_: I'll catch it on the DL
#
kylewm
tuning in KevinMarks_
#
kylewm
gray day in san jose
#
GWG
kylewm: Do you know the way there?
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snarfed
hey kylewm, i can't see that stephanie rodgers post. would you mind skimming it to see if you can find anything unusual?
#
snarfed
any possible reason that one can't be looked up by id
#
KevinMarks_
what is my tool or tip of the week
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "my tool or tip of the week" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=my+tool+or+tip+of+the+week
#
kylewm
snarfed: it's the same thing with https://www.facebook.com/ben.werdmuller/posts/10101055597765779
#
snarfed
KevinMarks_: http://tld-list.com/ ?
#
kylewm
which is public and someone we're both friends with
#
snarfed
kylewm: thx
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snarfed
kylewm: oh man and that's a pure text post too, no picture or location or link or anything. goddamn.
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KevinMarks_
any shiny new indieweb things?
#
snarfed
KevinMarks_: https://github.com/snarfed/ownyourcheckin ? automatic pesos for FB checkins
#
snarfed
meh
#
snarfed
supports any wordpress, so it's accessible ish at least
#
snarfed
kylewm: filed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/350
#
tantek
checks logs
#
tantek
good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
#
snarfed
hey tantek
#
kylewm
snarfed: do you know if bridgy have privileges to run /me/taggable_friends?
#
snarfed
kylewm: not sure. fb docs should say if/which perms it needs, and https://developers.facebook.com/apps/256884317673197/review-status/ says which bridgy has (you should be able to see that)
#
snarfed
tantek: current status, 1) KevinMarks_ is on a podcast and needs a new indieweb thing to plug
#
KevinMarks_
I mentioned microformats in the editorial bit already
#
snarfed
2) looks like FB v2.0 API breaks bridgy publish for some posts…but not all…and we have no way to tell them apart yet :(
#
tantek
Kevinmarks - any feedback on microformats2?
#
tantek
checks recent changes
#
tantek
KevinMarks - got one for you!
#
KevinMarks_
ok
#
KevinMarks_
?
#
tantek
mention 10 year anniversary of rel=tag, the distributed tagging standard we developed, which was eventually incorporated into HTML5
#
tantek
and as the follow-up
#
tantek
as in, then recently...
#
tantek
we've figured out distriibuted *person* tagging on the IndieWeb
#
tantek
so just as silos like FB, IG, Flickr let you tag people in posts and photos
#
tantek
we have figured out how to do that in your own posts
#
tantek
AND on other people's posts
#
KevinMarks_
We wer discussing h-cards and author markup already
#
tantek
up level to user feature
#
KevinMarks_
contrasting google dropping it and us doing it indieweb
#
KevinMarks_
for webmentions
#
tantek
great
#
tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag
#
tantek
built on top of h-card and webmention as well
#
tantek
many ways to combine the fundamental building blocks of microformats and webmention
#
tantek
person-tagging is a big deal because 1) you can only do it on silos currently, and 2) this is the first open standards proposal to do so using simple HTML, from one website peer to peer to another
#
aaronpk
tantek is writing a whole blog post, one line of IRC at a time!
#
tantek
and this leads into - you have a sample of it on your own site
#
tantek
http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2014-11-19.html
#
kylewm
snarfed: so it says you need user_friends (which we have) and also "usage of this edge requires review of your app"
#
tantek
lol aaronpk - hence I quoted Shanley's tweet above asking for that
#
tantek
"text editor that you write in it like a twitter interface"
#
kylewm
we have like a real weird cyrano debergerac situation going on here
#
tantek
is there some place we can listen to the podcast live?
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kylewm
http://live.twit.tv/
#
kylewm
it's wrapping up
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snarfed
kylewm: "review of your app" usually just means to get the perm
#
snarfed
so if we have it, then maybe it theoretically should work
#
KevinMarks_
heh
#
kylewm.com
edited /Facebook (+974) "/* Downtime */ add API issues" (view diff)
#
KevinMarks_
I didn't read t's points until afterwards
#
KevinMarks_
:D
#
KevinMarks_
Shanley wants noterlive.com?
#
kylewm
KevinMarks_: lol you guys were on the same page!
#
tantek
it's really new
#
millette
speaking of people tagging, I remember foaf - but I forget, what did wordpress offer with its blogroll feature, to tag family and friends?
#
tantek
XFN
#
millette
ah, thanks!
#
tantek
but that was for describing the relationship, rather than person tagging
#
KevinMarks_
leo is now trying webmention.herokuapp.com
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snarfed
"WaaS"
#
snarfed
done
#
snarfed
:P
#
tantek
what is WaaS?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "WaaS" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=WaaS
#
tantek
;)
#
tantek
KevinMarks_: with indieweb, you choose your own level of tinkering that you want.
#
@amblin
@phollows @copyblogger Then.you'll also likely like https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twtr.io/vNUT1UTk8G)
#
GWG
Note WordPress disabled blogroll, later links by default a while back
#
tantek
GWG - because blogrolls fell out of fashion
#
tantek
what is sharecropping?
#
Loqi
sharecropping in the context of the IndieWeb is the practice of primarily or exclusively creating/publishing content on silos as opposed to doing so first (or primarily) on your own site, and those that do publish primarily or exclusively on silos are known as sharecroppers https://indiewebcamp.com/sharecropping
#
tantek
what is digital sharecropping?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "digital sharecropping" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=digital+sharecropping
#
tantek.com
created /digital_sharecropping (+27) "r" (view diff)
#
GWG
tantek: So....telling people what sites you thought were important is unfashionable?
#
tantek
GWG - blogrolls were originally about people, not just "sites"
#
tantek
GWG - having them in a semi-static sidebar became unfashionable
#
millette
and 404s
#
KevinMarks_
I stll have one, though it is a lot of 404s
#
aaronpk
isn't that basically a "following" list like how twitter and facebook show it?
#
millette
what is xfn?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "xfn" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=xfn
#
tantek
aaronpk - it kind of served that role
#
tantek
heh
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KevinMarks_
http://epeus.blogspot.com/#thoughts+I+read
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millette
with a vocabulary saying if it's family, friend, coworker, etc.
#
GWG
tantek: I usually had a page for them.
#
tantek
millette: MySQL indexing/search bug
#
KevinMarks_
twitter used to have xfn markup on it
#
tantek
see https://indiewebcamp.com/XFN
#
tantek
and as KevinMarks just demonstrated - quickly falls out of date
#
tantek
too much of a chore to maintain
#
tantek
of course not that pruning / updating followings etc has gotten much (any?) better
#
kylewm
http://dashes.com/anil/#footer
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kylewm
is one too
#
tantek
any of those 404?
#
kylewm
that'd be a nice browser extension that shows 404 links as crossed out, like wikipedia
#
millette
I have a weird feeling indieweb appeals to old school webbers, but not so popular with the new crowd. I hope I am wrong.
#
tantek
some used it more like Anil - as a way of recommending or framing publishers
#
tantek
millette: depends which old school and which new school you speak of
#
tantek
could you be more specific?
#
kylewm
3 404s (or equivalent) on Anil's list
#
tantek
kylewm: evidence that he hasn't touched it in a while
#
millette
people you used to have blogs, some who handcoded html, don't depend on js for everything, etc.
#
KevinMarks_
who supports homepage webmentions?
#
aaronpk
What do you mean supports?
#
tantek
millette: almost no one hand codes HTML any more. many handcode templates however, which includes some HTML handcoding (typically)
#
millette
As I said before, I was involved with indie/fedweb until 4-5 years ago. It's good to return, but I see reckognise to many names :-)
#
aaronpk
I accept them and show them on aaronparecki.com/mentions along with the others
#
KevinMarks_
if I send the webmentions for all the HWC people I tagged, will they a) know about it b) show it on their site?
#
millette
yes, templates - some understanding of html required.
#
tantek
millette: did you attend the 2010 Federated Social Web Summit?
#
millette
I don't go out much :-(
#
KevinMarks_
sends them anyway
#
tantek
curious what you mean by "was involved with indie/fedweb"
#
millette
coming to this channel a last week reminded me of #joiito
#
KevinMarks_
apparently only 3
#
tantek
hah! yeah - that's probably because KevinMarks and I met on #joiito ;)
#
millette
I was a laconica developper and developped a bunch of little tools (all gone)
#
tantek
so there's some #joiito cultural DNA here, subconsciously at least
#
KevinMarks_
#joiito has a slack now
#
tantek
millette: did you preserve your own laconica install on your own site and keep your permalinks working?
#
tantek
KevinMarks_: and Joi posts updates on LinkedIn instead of his own site :/
#
millette
no, I've been a uncool
#
tantek
millette++ for subtle reference to Cool URIs
#
Loqi
millette has 2 karma
#
kevinmarks.com
edited /person-tag (+122) "/* Kevin Marks */" (view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /sharecropping (+450) "add Articles section with 2011 article on Digital Sharecropping and one great comment you won't believe" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+143) "move noterlive comment to a new Tool Support section" (view diff)
#
@pwcc
I've brain dumped the features a one-click #indieweb WordPress plugin might include https://peterwilson.cc/one-click-indieweb-for-wordpress/ +@dshanske (twtr.io/vNWxmryuHe)
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GWG
pwcc: I think we should chat
#
pwcc
GWG Re: braindump :)
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GWG
pwcc: That's why I said chat
#
pwcc
Does skype IM work?
#
KevinMarks_
re favicons for silos, there's a google favicon webservice
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GWG
pwcc: I don't normally leave it on. I'm more a Google hangouts/IRC type, but if you give me a bit, I could find my copy of Skype.
#
GWG
pwcc: I think I still have AIM
#
GWG
I leave it on to communicate with tantek
#
GWG
I'm kidding, but I think he lists it as his preferred contact method
#
KevinMarks_
https://s2.googleusercontent.com/s2/favicons?domain=twitter.com&alt=p
#
KevinMarks_
it caches and renders the favicons as 16x16 pngs
#
tantek
GWG - preferred *public* contact method
#
tantek
what are favicons?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "favicons" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=favicons
#
tantek
KevinMarks ^^^ can you stub with that googleusercontent URL?
#
aaronpk
or add to here? http://indiewebcamp.com/icon
#
pwcc
GWG not skype works - gchat surname at peter wilson dot cc
#
GWG
Okay. That I can do quickly.
#
tantek
aaronpk - that page is getting quite big and is more about icon as a feature
#
tantek
favicon I think deserves a legacy page for such things
#
kevinmarks.com
edited /icon (+404) "/* Tumblr */" (view diff)
#
KevinMarks_
oh
#
tantek
KevinMarks - that's an odd use of "Support"
#
tantek
as G+ pages themselves don't actually support an icon for the user who made the post on G+
#
tantek
that was the point of "Silo Support" there
#
KevinMarks_
ah
#
tantek
G+ consumes favicons from other sites, but does not support them
#
tantek
that's the point of /icon
#
tantek
supporting an /icon means you have one on your site (and secondarily, your posts)
#
tantek
nothing about "consuming"
#
tantek
except all the phone examples
#
tantek
browser support and such
#
aaronpk
is reading what tantek likes via his atom feed
#
tantek
aaronpk - I didn't even test that
#
tantek
just wrote the code and waited to see what would happen
#
aaronpk
heh
#
aaronpk
they're showing up!
#
tantek
first try! ;)
#
tantek
or at least the most recent 3 are showing up ;)
#
aaronpk
heh yeah
#
tantek
KevinMarks_: what G+ is doing is more like a subset of /link-preview
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tantek
does anyone POSSE to Hacker News?
#
tantek
what is Hacker News?
#
Loqi
Hacker News is a link aggregator as well as a silo for comments on those links https://indiewebcamp.com/Hacker_News
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#
pdurbin
what is DOI?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "DOI" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=DOI
#
tantek
aaronpk - seems like all "what is xyz" type questions return the same error - whether a page is there or not. E.g. XFN, DOI
#
aaronpk
tantek: I think that's the 4-char limit on searching in mysql
#
aaronpk
s/limit/minimum
#
Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: tantek: I think that's the 4-char minimum on searching in mysql
#
tantek.com
created /WhatsApp (+293) "stub with dfn, criticism, see also" (view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk I agree. hence I'm wondering if that could be guarded against in Loqi before it tries to do the search
#
aaronpk
ah hmm
#
tantek
or if <4 characters, have it fall back to just looking for the page by that name, rather than use search
#
tantek
I know, it's a weak patch
#
aaronpk
that might work because three-letter pages will tend to always be acronyms
#
aaronpk
i had to use the search for other things because i can't assume all lower case or capitalized names
#
tantek
agreed
#
tantek.com
edited /Hacker_News (+1555) "update dfn, more of a bookmark silo than link aggregator, add Features and Brainstorming sections with some exploration of POSSE" (view diff)
#
tantek
tommorris - I noticed you posted a comment on Hacker News - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8004998 - what do you think of the idea of posting such a comment on your own site and POSSEing it to Hacker News? https://indiewebcamp.com/Hacker_News#POSSE_replies_to_Hacker_News
#
tommorris
I'm not wild about Hacker News. I wouldn't want most of what goes on there anywhere near my precious tommorris.org pixels. :)
#
tantek
that HN link I pasted above reads like classic tommorris.org :)
#
tantek
short, direct, to the point, with a dash of snark
#
tommorris
I'll think about it. :)
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aaronpk
Really? I wouldn't call hackernews a bookmark site at all
#
tantek
yeah - it's a bookmark silo, pure and simple
#
tantek
with less functionality that delicious :P
#
tantek
s/that/than
#
aaronpk
The whole point is to submit relevant links that get voted on
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: with less functionality than delicious :P
#
tantek
"whole point" ? no that's just a game of the current UI
#
aaronpk
I seriously doubt anybody submits things there for personal relevance
#
tantek
HN is a bookmarks silo with likes. Delicious is a bookmarks silo with tags. Discuss ;)
#
tantek.com
edited /Hacker_News (+936) "Community Examples - indieweb community members who post bookmark(s) and/or comment(s) on HN" (view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk - your bookmark posts accept "like" webmentions right?
#
kylewm
tantek: is Reddit a bookmark silo too then?
#
aaronpk
The purpose of delicious was to organize your own bookmarks. It is useful to one person even if nobody else used it. Hackernews is useless unless there are other people
#
KartikPrabhu
Google is a bookmark silo with seatch!
#
aaronpk
Everything on my site accepts webmentions, but not all post types display them
#
KartikPrabhu
s/seatch/search
#
Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: Google is a bookmark silo with search!
#
KartikPrabhu
I win!
#
tantek
kylewm - let's start with what is Reddit?
#
Loqi
Reddit is a link aggregator and bulletin board site where community members may submit links and text posts, vote on the submitted entries, and post comments on them https://indiewebcamp.com/Reddit
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aaronpk
That describes hackernews too
#
tantek
aaronpk - disagree re: delicious - it had lots of functions / intents when it launched. including top links etc.
#
tantek
ability to subscribe to tags
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aaronpk
Did it have voting and discussion?
#
tantek
and because tags are flexible, delicious users came up with many other purposes
#
tantek
e.g. tagging things with forUsername
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#
tantek
as a hack way of sending things to each other / lofi person-tagging
#
tantek
aaronpk - it only had one level comments
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kylewm
I guess I might take issue with calling https://adactio.com/links/ "bookmarks" also
#
tantek
as much as that provides "discussion"
#
tantek
here's the key - once you see HN as a bookmarks silo, it makes A LOT of sense why they frown on bookmarking your own personal posts.
#
tantek
I submit that HN = bookmarks silo is the GUT explanation of HN.
#
tantek
(hypothesis that fits the best)
#
aaronpk
meh not really interested in debating this terminology
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#
kylewm
aside: benwerd RSVP'd to last night's meetup twice with conflicting answers (instead of changing the original)
#
tantek
kylewm interesting - perhaps that's a semantic we need to capture for events posts receiving RSVPs
#
kylewm
maybe!
#
kylewm
I haven't seen that before
#
tantek
kylewm - looking at adactio.com/links - ti does seem like a lot of those are "replies" rather than bookmarks
#
kylewm
but it makes sense
#
tantek
s/ ti / it
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: kylewm - looking at adactio.com/links - itdoes seem like a lot of those are "replies" rather than bookmarks
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kylewm
tantek: I would call most of them a /quote
#
tantek
lots of those yes
#
tantek
seems to me a mix of bookmarks, quotations, and replies
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: kylewm: I don't think any of adactio's links are supposed to be a"reply" to the original post author. They are more like adactio's commentary on the original post for adactio's readers
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tantek
sounds like a challenge to find an exception. drat. :P
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KartikPrabhu
go for it! I read all of adactio's links :)
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tantek
this is comment like enough - in fact would read reasonably well as a comment under the original article: https://adactio.com/links/8224
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tantek
hahaha a "This" post: https://adactio.com/links/8222
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: it might but I am not sure adactio intended it to be so, and hence put it in links
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tantek
what is this?
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Loqi
This. (AKA THIS. or This: or THIS:) is type of quotation post similar in meaning to a combined like & repost where the text "This." is stated on a line by itself after the quotation, or the text "This:" is stated before a quotation or URL to express a strong affirmation or agreement with the referenced quotation or article https://indiewebcamp.com/this
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KartikPrabhu
that has always been my problem with response classification here. Maybe I do want to put text under "likes" but I don't mean it as a "reply" to the original author
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tantek
we're running head-on to the classification problem with the updated AS work in W3C Social Web WG
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tantek
thus I think it behooves us to have a good answer arrived at by very deliberate methodology (study of existing posting examples)
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tantek.com
edited /this (+557) "IndieWeb Examples (add adactio) vs. Silo Examples" (view diff)
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kylewm
i guess there is just a difference between a link you're saving to remember later, and one you're sharing because you want others to read it and comment on it
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KartikPrabhu
yes. my method has been: if I want the post to be an actual "reply" intended for the original author it is a reply, else it is a "like"
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kylewm
but the presentation of those two could be the same
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Loqi
gives KartikPrabhu the post to be an actual "reply" intended for the original author it is a reply
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tantek
kylewm - right - the presentation of different post types/kinds is what differentiates them
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tantek
not the "intent"
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tantek
er
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tantek
primarily the presentation, secondarily the intent
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kylewm
"bookmark" is not a great name for the union of those things...but i don't have a better suggestion
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tantek
per the in depth exploration on /quotation
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KartikPrabhu
I do it the other way around. my intent will dictate the "presentation" and markup
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tantek
if you're saving a link just to remember later for yourself, why are you doing so publicly?
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tantek
there's the inescapable context of public sharing which affects the meaning
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: you're right also
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tantek
from the author perspective intent -> presentation/markup
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tantek
from the reader perspective: presentation/markup -> interpret/infer intent
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: also I don't have any difference in public bookmarks vs likes
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: now that I've implemented like posts I'm not sure why I'd do bookmarks
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KartikPrabhu
per your own observation like is a public "positive" bookmark
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes exactly!
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: one possible distinction
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tantek
a "like" is a very public explicit display of positivity
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tantek
whereas a "bookmark" post could be interpreted more like a "save"
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tantek
this feels like a blog post I wrote already ...
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KartikPrabhu
true. I might want to bookmark a post I don't like for reference or to point my readers to it (haven't had the need for it yet)
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tantek
in FB, liking a "page" is a way of expressing interests in updates from it (kind of like a "soft" follow)
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KartikPrabhu
I have always found FB semantics stupid
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: found it: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block#web-action-motivations
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tantek
bookmark is a "save" intention
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tantek
whereas like is a "props" intention
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tantek
repost is a "share" intention
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tantek
bookmark can be neutral - or even without opinion at all
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KartikPrabhu
yup
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tantek
I don't bookmark things because bookmarks lack context / purpose / actionability IMO
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tantek
in thinking about the links I save, I do collect one thing in particular (in a text file)
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tantek
"I read this." or "I skimmed this." -> URL
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tantek
for reasons of latter reference - the - what was that article that I read about xyz?
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KartikPrabhu
or "i saved this URL for later reading" I do that with science papers in feedly
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tantek
not later reading - past tense. have read.
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KartikPrabhu
if/when I have an actual reader I might add bookmark to mean "marked for later reading"
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tantek
I mean, I don't track *everything* I've read that way
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KartikPrabhu
in fact the Feedly icon for "saved for later" is bookmark
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tantek
only things that feel like that have some significance that I may want to refind / reference / cite in the future
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tantek
or if its a concept (e.g. WP page), I track that for purpose of knowing when did I learn about that concept
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: here is an example of a *marginalia* comment from Adactio's links: https://adactio.com/links/8130
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tantek
it's marginalia (rather than just a summary) because Adactio goes to the effort to hyperlink to another related resource in his comment.
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KartikPrabhu
again depends on his "intent"
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KartikPrabhu
but i could act as a comment
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KartikPrabhu
s/i/it
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tantek
so there you go - better than a "reply" - it's a reply to a specific quote!
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: but it could act as a comment
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tantek
this is worthy as a comment, he is sharing his personal perspective on the subject of the article, which is common comment fodder.
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tantek
https://adactio.com/links/8128
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tantek
outright comment/reply: https://adactio.com/links/8127
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tantek
and another reply, again with value-add of hyperlinking to an additional resource: https://adactio.com/links/8115
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tantek
rather than /bookmark posts, I may at some point implement "I read this" posts for what I described above that I currently capture as "read or skimmed" URLs in a text file
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tantek
at that point, I may POSSE such "I read this / skimmed this" posts as bookmarks to bookmark silos
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tantek
perhaps with the (hash)tag #read or #skimmed
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tantek
the abstract "bookmark" post makes less and less sense for me personally
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KartikPrabhu
possibly. maybe this discussion should be brought to adactio's attention.
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tantek
feels like an in-person discussion over drinks or equivalent
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KartikPrabhu
sure
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@johncappiello
Setup @withknown. Giving this whole #indieweb thing a shot. (twtr.io/vNkHAm8tBU)
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tantek
I wonder what the impact is of people receiving indie likes on posts like that.
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snarfed
i keep fighting with the fb api's id handling
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snarfed
…and it keeps defeating me
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snarfed
sigh
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KartikPrabhu
<zuckerberg> and now to give free facebook *cough* internet to the developing world
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snarfed
sometimes, all you can do is swear
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snarfed
https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/commit/bc43c3b1c68a76a5c69e5017685a2cc8711dd756
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kylewm
poor snarfed
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kylewm
limiting the API in all sorts of arbitrary ways seems like a really lame way to prevent abuse/spam
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KartikPrabhu
"right in the ear" love it!
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek
and sympathies to snarfed re: FB API
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tantek.com
edited /FreeMyOAuth (+58) "fix a few images, change mini subheads to popular, common, other, add wikimedia auths link" (view diff)
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@netzrocker
Weird site for a „web camp“ – https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany/Guest_List (twtr.io/vPC9TqJKoG)
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