#indiewebcamp 2015-02-18

2015-02-18 UTC
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KevinMarks as opposed to http://scripting.com/#idOutlineWedge6 vs http://reader.liveblog.co/davewiner?id=1424189142000
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KevinMarks 'cos lossy OPML -> RSS -> HTML munging
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kylewm does anybody know order of magnitude how much work it would be to port Known's Firefox Social extension thing to work with another website?
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kylewm I think that might be the frictionlessest way I've seen to reply to tweets
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aaronpk you've seen mine, yeah?
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kylewm aaronpk: bookmarklet?
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aaronpk yeah http://aaron.pk/n4RT2
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aaronpk only downside is it does involve navigating to another page, but it's still pretty quick to reply to tweets
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kylewm yeah that is pretty much how i'm set up too
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KevinMarks could you iframe it inline?
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aaronpk too many browser security things that would prevent that from working i think
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benwerd kylewm: it would be trivial
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kylewm haha, that's what i wanted to hear!
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aaronpk i tried an iframe trick to make my "like" button work without leaving the page. it works on most sites but not on facebook or a few others
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kylewm sticking the "Reply" "Like" bookmarklets actually inside each tweet would be pretty good too, so I didn't actually have to navigate to the tweet permalink
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aaronpk kylewm: i had that for a while with barnaby's browser extension
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aaronpk it rewrote the links to pop out to my own site
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kylewm oh duh, i totally forgot about that part of webaction hero toolbelt
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kylewm why'd you turn it off?
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aaronpk i got a new computer and never set it up on the new one
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tantek heh
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tantek install friction
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tantek aaronpk++ for "too polite of a reply" :)
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Loqi aaronpk has 707 karma
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aaronpk hehe
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kylewm yeah, it's easy to install but non-trivial
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acegiak kylewm: this says my authorship is ok https://kylewm.com/services/mf2util?url=http%3A%2F%2Facegiak.net%2F2015%2F02%2F18%2Fkyle-mahan-its-interesting-that-the-concept-of-a-one-hit-wonder-is-basically-dead-to-not-milk-a-musician-for-every-cent-theyre-worth-is-as%2F
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acegiak but it looks like your site isn't liking it: https://kylewm.com/2015/02/it-s-interesting-that-the-concept-of-a-one-hit-wonder
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kylewm acegiak: thanks, fixed it
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kylewm i didn't account for the case with author name but not author url
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acegiak kylewm: it seems weird to have a url link in my h-card on my own site header?
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KevinMarks you could have a link to ""
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kylewm acegiak: lol, you have one right above your header
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acegiak kylewm: oh yeah...
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kylewm no but i agree, it's a little strange
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acegiak kylewm: when I reply to your reply is your site gonna send my post an update webmention?
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kylewm no, would you do something cool with it if it did??
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acegiak kylewm: I'm just thinking that when I recieve an update webmention I should check comments and post them as replies to comment on my original post?
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aaronpk other than readers, what are other overarching themes here right now?
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acegiak but I haven't looked at the semantic linkbacks plugin in soo long
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GWG acegiak: I have. What do you want to know?
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acegiak GWG: do we have any kind of threaded comment functionality there?
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GWG acegiak: Look at webmention for comments.
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GWG acegiak: I know pfefferle worked on that
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acegiak benwerd: not recieving webmentions from me or not parsing my mf2? or just sitting in moderation queue? http://acegiak.net/2015/02/18/ben-werdmuller-kylewm2-httpswww-youtube-comwatchvhn1vxamejru/ http://acegiak.net/2015/02/18/ben-werdmuller-what-day-is-it-today-httpyoutu-begj_ahcpzl4k/
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tantek delayed response to kylewm: we could totally implement a distributed growing webring with links and webmentions
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tantek all you would need is a "hey can you add me to your webring" type post
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aaronpk would that basically just collect the URLs of everyone who sent a webmention to it?
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tantek with a special response post that said "sure, your next neighbor is (link)"
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tantek no I mean a doubly-linked list webring
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tantek *actual* ring
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aaronpk ha
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GWG kylewm: I was just looking at your parser.
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aaronpk can we call the other one a webpool or something?
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KevinMarks make one fo those "you shoudl read next" thingies that wasn't just clickbait?
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tantek the one that "just collect the URLs of everyone who sent a webmention to it?" is already called a "directory"
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GWG kylewm: It seems to be duping something. Trying to figure out why.
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aaronpk needs a cooler name than "directory" for people to care about it tho ;)
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tantek hahaha
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tantek aaronpk: indirectory :P
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aaronpk tehehe
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KevinMarks webclub
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GWG KevinMarks: What happens there, stays there?
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aaronpk there is a .club tld...
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KevinMarks Tinder for URLs
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tantek clubs stink of exclusion
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tantek e.g. countryclub
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aaronpk yeah that's like the whole point of clubs lol
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tantek and we already had that problem / analogy with app.net
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KevinMarks homebrew website club
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KevinMarks oh, wait
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tantek prior art ;)
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GWG WordPress Outreach Club?
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tantek *successful* prior art
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aaronpk why are .website domains so cheap
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aaronpk that's such an awful TLD
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aaronpk oh
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tantek in essence we're talking about groups
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tantek which is an actual silo feature
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tantek you can create, join, leave, delete a group
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aaronpk "group" sounds more inclusive too
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tantek you can invite others to join a group
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KevinMarks there's also .pub but they wouldn't let em have micro.pub
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tantek and if you're an "admin" (group creator?) you can rename, delete, or kick people out
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tantek groups are also mentioned in a few Social Web WG user-stories
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aaronpk what is a group?
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Loqi group in the context of the indieweb (also "indie group" or "indie groups") is a place where people can deliberately share content with each other, not necessarily on their own domain (though likely copied from via webmention etc.) https://indiewebcamp.com/group
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tantek :)
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KevinMarks also .link seems apropos
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KevinMarks and popualr http://www.hover.com/blog/top-20-gtlds-february-9-15-2015/
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aaronpk how bout thenext.link for an indiewebring?
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kylewm GWG: mf2util?
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GWG kylewm: Yes
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kylewm link?
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GWG kylewm: https://kylewm.com/services/mf2util?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftiny.n9n.us%2F2014%2F11%2F02%2Fback-grind%2F
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GWG This is a test link from my test site
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tantek aaronpk the point of an indieweb ring is that you don't need a separate site to make it work
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aaronpk how do you insert a site into the right?
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aaronpk ring*
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aaronpk that involves updating people on both sides of where you're inserting, right?
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kylewm GWG: the syndication links? it's because they are both rel="syndication" and class="u-syndication", and i don't bother to de-dupe them
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tantek aaronpk see above
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tantek you ask a site to add you to the end of their ring via a webring insertion request post that just links to the site
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tantek and sends a webmention
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aaronpk ah you can only add to the end?
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tantek if the site likes you
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kylewm indie-conga-line
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tantek then you it tells you who your next neighbor is (who was its earlier next neighbor)
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aaronpk when does it become a ring?
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KevinMarks a ring doesn't have an end
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tantek s/then you it/then it
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Loqi tantek meant to say: then it tells you who your next neighbor is (who was its earlier next neighbor)
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tantek KevinMarks, hence you ask a site to add you as their "next"
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tantek and then it responds by telling you your previous
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tantek s/your/your new
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Loqi tantek meant to say: and then it responds by telling you your new previous
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kylewm whoa, indie linked list
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tantek that's what I said! doubly linked list
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aaronpk so you *can* insert anywhere in the ring?
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tantek yeah sure, keep it simple
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aaronpk i'm confusde because earlier you said you can ask to be added to the end of the ring
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gRegor` indiewebring++
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Loqi indiewebring has 1 karma
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gRegor` But who will maintain the RSS feed of everyone in the ring? ;)
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gRegor` sees himself out
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tantek aaronpk - "end of the ring" from any site's perspective is their next neighbor
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tantek sorry I didn't make that clear
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aaronpk so to insert someone you also ahve to tell your next neighbor who their new previous neighbor is, right?
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tantek yes that's the response part I noted above
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tantek oh wait - no yes that's another fix up
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jcap so, again, this will be a very naive question for indieweb I'm sure
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jcap but
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jcap as you're talking about a ring
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aaronpk seems like this would be very delicate, because if one site goes offline the ring breaks
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jcap I can't help but thinking I've been wondering where foaf might fit here
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tantek jcap - re: distinguishing responses - they're all different user interactions
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tantek jcap - it doesn't. "where does plumbing x fit?" is always the wrong question to ask
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tantek and foaf is just plumbing
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jcap so I know you've all developed "readers" but I've been wondering how do I connect to "people"
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jcap tantek, sorry, just using foaf as a generalization for the above
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tantek with links to home pages
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aaronpk you connect to people by adding their home pages to your readers
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aaronpk then you can read their stuff and reply to it
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tantek jcap "foaf" is jargon for specific plumbing, better to rephrase questions in terms of actual user goals
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tantek what is writing on the sand?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "writing on the sand" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=writing+on+the+sand&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-17%2Fline%2F1424222358808
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tantek writing on the sand is a metaphor used to describe the act of writing in ephemeral places like [[silos]] which are very likely to [[site-deaths|die]] and take everything you've written with them.
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tantek fail
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aaronpk why didn't that work!
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tantek it's not you (or Loqi), it's me. I'm good at breaking things. ask the CSSWG.
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Loqi who, me?
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tantek https://www.facebook.com/daniel.glazman/posts/10153651410815550
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tantek I just wanted to create a page to capture this real world illustrative example of *literally* writing on the sand: http://instagram.com/p/zOTPtZEjux/
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aaronpk yeah i have no idea why that didn't work
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jcap tantek, fair enough
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jcap tantek, aaronpk, something about links to homepages doesn't seem to quite capture the same feeling of say, a list of people you follow on twitter, or fb contacts
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jcap maybe it's the same
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aaronpk what is following?
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Loqi To follow is the concept of establishing a digital relationship to another person or entity so that you can receive updates from them over a given social media channel https://indiewebcamp.com/following
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gRegor` jcap: You could add a list of bookmarks (or blogroll)
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tantek jcap what's your website?
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jcap tantek, aseriesofideas.com at the moment
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jcap running known
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tantek great!
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jcap I've got an error being throwin in the logs about mongo
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jcap but otherwise should be mostly operational
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KevinMarks blogrolls were the original people you follow
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tantek jcap - your home page has your name, a nice profile photo, a description - sure looks like a twitter or fb profile page to me
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tantek why do you say it doesn't seem to quite capture the same feeling?
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jcap tantek, yeah, I think you're right. I also am not sure it matters that things aren't exactly like everywhere else
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jcap I think a blogroll/ list of links, makes sense
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jcap I'd like that list to correspond to my indieweb reader
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jcap but that's just logiistical
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aaronpk the reader ultimately should be able to pick up a public blogroll from your site
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aaronpk the one benwerd and emmak and I built at IWC did that
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jcap is that the woodwind tool (or something like that)?
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jcap someone, I think kylewm? had some sort of contacts management in his platform
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jcap that seemed perhaps a starting point for the collection of people + what to pull their content from into a reader
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@erinjo As always, it's a pleasure talking to @dangillmor about #indieweb and @withknown. (twitter.com/_/status/567860150754611200)
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jcap I wonder if I could dump a subset of my addressbook, or sync my addressbook, to a db that would then populate both a blogroll and/or reader
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loqi.me created /two (+45) "test and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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acegiak all I had to do for WhisperFollow was add a function that used the phpmf2 library instead of magpieRSS
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loqi.me created /two_words (+51) "test and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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kylewm jcap, woodwind is not the same as the indie reader they built at IWC in Portland, but it does a lot of the same stuff... I have not gotten to fetching a list of subscriptions from the user's domain, but it's something i would definitely like to add in the future
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acegiak rss reader is suddenly indieweb compatible
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jcap acegiak, very cool
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aaronparecki.com deleted /two_words "test"
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GWG acegiak: How's Whisperfollow doing?
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acegiak GWG: I'm addicted to it like facebook or tumblr or any other social network
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GWG acegiak: I haven't looked at it in a while.
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loqi.me created /two_words (+54) "test and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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jcap acegiak, I think that's a good sign
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aaronparecki.com deleted /two_words "test"
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acegiak making it infinite scroll was worth the effort
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acegiak plus it let me add the search function
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jcap I have to fix the disaster I've left my known codebase in before I can add things unfortunately
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tantek acegiak, what do you mean by rss reader is suddenly indieweb compatible? is this a project that you added h-feed consuming support to?
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kylewm acegiak: /WhisperFollow could use some screenshots!
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acegiak tantek: All whisperfollow does is grab your blogroll and enumerate through it and if it has an rss feed listed, aggregate the posts from rss into a feed for me to consume
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kylewm "all"
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acegiak so all I did was add an else clause so that if there ISNT an rss feed it tries to mf2 parse the page and aggregate that
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tantek acegiak - I'd suggest looking for an h-feed before RSS. Those of us that have h-feed typically have more information (higher fidelity) there.
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tantek and from experience, you can depend on HTML versions of information being more correct / up to date than any sidefiles (RSS or otherwise)
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tantek i.e. put RSS in the else clause instead.
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acegiak tantek: I don't populate the rss field in my blogroll entries for indieweb sites
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acegiak I'm not parsing for rss links in site headers every time
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acegiak wordpress has an rss column for link entries, I'm just checking if that's populated or not
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kylewm tantek: I agree, except for mf1 feeds, like ma.tt ... http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fma.tt%2F gets a lot of data but misses some important stuff
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acegiak BUT I will adjust my quick follow script so that if it detects an mf2 feed it specifically avoid populating that rss column
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kylewm acegiak: I see some pubsubhubbub stuff in the github repo, does Whisperfollow use it?
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acegiak kylewm: it tries to, it's a little beyond me so it's pretty sketchy
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acegiak I'm really bad at anything with a dance like pubsubhubbub
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acegiak and oauth
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acegiak etc
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kylewm a little beyond me too
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kylewm cool though
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kylewm acegiak++ for adding h-feeds to whisperfollow
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Loqi acegiak has 12 karma
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acegiak I'm just doing some screenshots of my UX flow now
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acegiak cause the ones on my wiki page are out of date
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GWG acegiak: I want to see them
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acegiak oh neat, my screenshot upload script worked on those even though they weren't game shots
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jcap Loqi, what is h-feed
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Loqi h-feed is a microformats2 experiment with a top level feed object to contain h-entry posts https://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed
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jcap huh
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tantek hmm - do we have more than one consumer of h-feed now?
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jcap wonders if there's an h-feed in his known install. seems I've seen that classification
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tantek seems to me we're quite past "experiment"
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@benwerd RT @erinjo: As always, it's a pleasure talking to @dangillmor about #indieweb and @withknown. (twitter.com/_/status/567868343752859648)
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@jgmac1106 RT @erinjo: As always, it's a pleasure talking to @dangillmor about #indieweb and @withknown. (twitter.com/_/status/567868406529150976)
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jcap hrm, I wonder if I removed the h-feed class erroneously :\
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kylewm hmm, no h-feed class on werd.io
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kylewm parsers can just fallback on all top-level h-entrys though
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@acegiak Updated walkthrough of my Indieweb reader/response UX: I thought I'd do a quick update - http://acegiak.net/2015/02/18/updated-walkthrough-of-my-indieweb-readerresponse-ux/ https://twitter.com/acegiak/status/567872004361031681/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/567872004361031681)
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acegiak there's a post on my site for the UX at the moment
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acegiak I can port it to the wiki later
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jcap kylewm, it's odd too as there are h-entry entities
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jcap kylewm, oh, I see
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GWG acegiak: May I make some UX comments?
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GWG The search, page, forcecheck, and new boxes at the top aren't intuitive.
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acegiak GWG: yeah, I probably need to take another look at how they fit
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acegiak I'm heading out, I'd love any other comments. send me a webmention if you have them
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GWG Ok
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GWG I need help with a name.
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GWG Syndication Links, the next plugin I want to deploy.
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GWG Is there a better thing to call it?
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tantek if it adds syndication links to posts then that sounds like a good name
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp
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tantek for those of you in the W3C Social Web Working Group, just about a bit over an hour and half left to add user-stories to https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories
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tantek huh no one has showing likes documented
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tantek fixed: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Liking_And_Showing_Likes
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jcap do webmentions not have to be directed at specific entities?
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tantek jcap can you rephrase your question in terms of a positive expression?
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tantek huh, no one has RSVPing to a public event documented
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jcap tantek, well specifically, trying to work out what acegiak meant by "send me a webmention"
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jcap what does that mean in terms of an action?
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acegiak i meant indieweb reply
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acegiak to the post
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acegiak using "webmention" as shorthand
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tantek bbiab - dinner
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jcap got it
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tantek ok back to user story editing
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tantek jcap - I'm going to focus on that for now - might be able to answer more qs after 21:00 PST if you're around
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@acegiak Added p-pronouns to h-card on my #indieweb site. Can I suggest it be added to #mf2 & vcard rfc? - http://acegiak.net/2015/02/18/8702/ (twitter.com/_/status/567905917150183424)
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acegiak ok back
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GWG Welcome back
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tantek acegiak - great that you published a real world example of expressing a pronoun preference
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tantek as part of your h-card
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tantek next step is to document that on the microformats wiki
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tantek perhaps in microformats.org/wik/h-card-brainstorming with a link to your real world example
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tantek also note that all microformats properties are singular
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tantek thus you probably want p-pronoun markup on each one (if there is more than one), rather than p-prounouns
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acegiak oh so p-pronoun-subject p-pronoun-object p-pronoun-posessive ?
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tantek acegiak - not sure if that's even cross-language compatible
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tantek or even if it is possible to do so
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tantek more to write-up - even as a question, as part of your brainstor
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tantek m
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acegiak yeah
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tantek worth capturing though
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tantek self-expression of pronoun preference is something we should at least note we are thinking about
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acegiak IF you can assume english it's actually super practical
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acegiak because it allows me to for instance, say "tantek edited his post"
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GWG acegiak: I have the hardest time figuring a simple way to do syntax. I put the verb at the beginning for that reason.
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acegiak Gwg: they/them/their are all acceptable for when gender is unknown or variable
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tjgillies why is there a microformat2 instead of an extension to microformats? Did microformats2 break stuff in microformats1?
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GWG acegiak: Maybe in the next rewrite of the display functionality.
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GWG acegiak: I wrote the current version not thinking about other languages either, even though I put in the strings for internationalization.
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acegiak if your current sentence structure works for you thats good
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acegiak if you need to use they/them/their thats fine!
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acegiak if you can pull and use preferred pronouns from h-card that's even better!
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tantek what no comments user story?!?
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acegiak tantek: gender is listed on the vcard suggestions page but vcard accepts gender identity on the sex field?
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acegiak just trying to work out where to put my suggestion
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snarfed oh boy, also https://genderneutralpronoun.wordpress.com/ , http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/xe
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tantek acegiak "gender" as a compound vCard4 property was proposed and developed on the microformats wiki
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tantek so you're likely seeing some history there
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tantek it has two subcomponents
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tantek a free text "gender-identity" component
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tantek and a single character enumerated "sex" component
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acegiak yeah i examindd that part of the rfc
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tantek yeah it was something I worked pretty hard to get
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tantek into vCard4
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tantek and thus h-card
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acegiak so i should put this in the v-card suggestions section?
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tantek acegiak are you perhaps confusiong vcard and hcard?
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tjgillies tantek: whats your MBTI type? Out of curiosity
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tantek lol - tjgillies MBTI is not in h-card :P
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tantek acegiak: microformats.org/wiki/h-card-brainstorming
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tjgillies tantek: that's no ones fault but yours ;)
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tantek and btw that's it for user storeis
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tantek stories
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acegiak tantek: h-card section says new attribute suggestions go on v-card suggestions page to maaintain 1:1 vcard:h-card
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tjgillies goes off to file proposal of MBTI into h-card
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tantek lol tjgillies
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tantek acegiak it does?
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tantek at what URL?
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acegiak http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming
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acegiak post vcard3 suggestions
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tantek ah that needs a pointer to h-card
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tantek yeah that's out of date
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tantek since we're already post vcard4 now
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tantek acegiak - btw microformats-specific discussions (and wiki updates) go to #microformats
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tjgillies redoing my personal website to use microformats, woo
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@dougmckown Testing Ozh tweet archive plugin. https://wordpress.org/plugins/ozh-tweet-archiver/ #indieweb #pesos (twitter.com/_/status/567914962720595969)
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acegiak tjgillies++ nice
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Loqi tjgillies has 12 karma
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@dougmckown Testing the @ozh tweet archive plugin. https://wordpress.org/plugins/ozh-tweet-archiver/ … #indieweb #pesos (twitter.com/_/status/567919233759346688)
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tjgillies ah this is a nice article that answers my previous Q https://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/getting-started-with-microformats2/
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tantek yes barnabywalters wrote a nice post
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tantek I kind of went a little nuts with the RSVPs invitations comments to an event user story: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#RSVPs_invitations_comments_to_an_event
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tjgillies is microformats considered an h-product?
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tantek not sure how
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tantek and the last user story I got committed before time ran out: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Comments_And_Showing_Comments
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tantek (which frankly I can't believe I had to add)
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@nlpbot Microformats Extraction endpoint added to our API. Extract meaning from HTML nlproc indieweb http://blog.aylien.com/post/111295014148/feature-update-microformats-extraction-added-to (twitter.com/_/status/567923029302517760)
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@dariusdunlap @pierreozoux @indiewebcamp - excellent! Thanks for catching that OCSP stapling. I completely missed that! (twitter.com/_/status/567924800657559552)
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@dougmckown Testing the @ozh tweet archive plugin. https://wordpress.org/plugins/ozh-tweet-archiver/ … … #indieweb #pesos (twitter.com/_/status/567925809673031680)
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pfefferle good morning
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress_Plugins (+76) "added activity streams plugin" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /projects (+56) "/* WordPress */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /projects (+0) "/* WordPress */" (view diff)
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tylergillies.club edited /2015 (+19) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /WebFinger (+241) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /User:Notizblog.org (+45) "/* working on/selfdogfooding */" (view diff)
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tjgillies Is there an indiephoneauth?
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tjgillies ah sms right there on the site, derp
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress/Development (+21) "referenced "WordPress Data" page" (view diff)
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@nitot Nouveau billet #EnVrac sur le Standblog : http://standblog.org/blog/post/2015/02/18/En-vrac-du-mercredi #singularity #NSA #LifeHacking #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/567974292987744256)
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@webinfojulien RT @nitot: Nouveau billet #EnVrac sur le Standblog : http://standblog.org/blog/post/2015/02/18/En-vrac-du-mercredi #singularity #NSA #LifeHacking #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/567974426744098816)
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@barzogh RT @nitot: Nouveau billet #EnVrac sur le Standblog : http://standblog.org/blog/post/2015/02/18/En-vrac-du-mercredi #singularity #NSA #LifeHacking #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/567975199355904000)
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@ppsticino RT@nitot: Nouveau billet #EnVrac sur le Standblog : #singularity #NSA #LifeHacking #IndieWeb https://twitter.com/nitot/status/567974292987744256?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+NewsForPirates+%28News+for+Pirates%29 (twitter.com/_/status/567975264711532544)
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@fboudeau_csc RT @nitot: Nouveau billet #EnVrac sur le Standblog : http://standblog.org/blog/post/2015/02/18/En-vrac-du-mercredi #singularity #NSA #LifeHacking #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/567975638679859200)
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@pier2kan RT @nitot: Nouveau billet #EnVrac sur le Standblog : http://standblog.org/blog/post/2015/02/18/En-vrac-du-mercredi #singularity #NSA #LifeHacking #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/567984421233659904)
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acegiak pfefferle: what's the current state of webmention for comments?
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pfefferle acegiak should work… but tested it only with to local blogs, because no one else seems using it
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acegiak pfefferle: if I post a comment with webmention for comments and someone then sends a webmention reply to that comment should that work?
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pfefferle acegiak that is how it should work, yes
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pfefferle acegiak reply to comments via webmentions
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acegiak neat
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pfefferle and the comment on this comment is also sent as webmention and so on
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acegiak pfefferle: so the next step for me then is to get it so that if a third party comments on a reply to my post, that reply then sends me an update webmention and then I scan theirs for the comment and display it on my site as a reply to that comment
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acegiak which is probably a job for semantic linkbacks
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pfefferle acegiak you don’t have to do anything… the semantic linkbacks also hooks into the webmentions for comments plugin
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acegiak really? *does an excited wiggle*
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pfefferle ah, it does not scan for comments that aren’t sent via webmentions if that is what you meant
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acegiak pfefferle: yeah, I'm basically trying to create salmon-like behaviour
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pfefferle ok
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petermolnar yesterday's 500px issue turned out to be user error... select-copy-paste the oauth key and secrets adds an additional, near invisible space to the front of the string
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Loqi petermolnar: gRegor` left you a message on 2/17 at 10:54am: Could you document your Oauth experience on the /500px page?
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petermolnar !tell gRegor` I will, though I ended up using the WordPress Keyring plugin in the end as framework
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@enquos Great #Infographic on why you should be paying attention to your #Macros. #Carbs #Fats #Macronutrients #ownyourdata https://twitter.com/enquos/status/568017346553618432/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/568017346553618432)
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GWG Good morning, all
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petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress_Plugins (+537) "adding PESOS plugin list" (view diff)
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GWG Activity on the Wordpress pages. Great
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pfefferle GWG good morning
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GWG Morning pfefferle.
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GWG pfefferle: I am thinking of rewriting my submission. I still want to get the indenting right. I don't know why I have so much trouble with it.
michielbdejong, friedcell, KartikPrabhu, alanpearce, pfefferle, elima_, frzn, 7JTACD28B, mlncn, eschnou, jgarber, gRegor`, loic_m, sanduhrs, verdi_ and interactivist joined the channel
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@krisshaffer I love WebMentions (and @withknown and brid.gy). http://sketches.shaffermusic.com/2015/i-will-be-speaking-at-cu-about-public-online-scholarship (twitter.com/_/status/568062766805684224)
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pfefferle GWG are you still working on the IndieWeb descriptions or can I realease a new version later?
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@lowellmower @dissolve333 wondering if you'd add me as an apprentice? I'd love to attend IndieWebCamp in March and help where I can. (twitter.com/_/status/568086121827028992)
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petermolnar GWG, pfefferle I've encoutered this plugin: https://wordpress.org/plugins/keyring-social-importers/ it's built on Keyring and I was thinking that a backfeed and maybe a POSSE plugin built on top of it would be pretty useful; I wonder what you two think about it
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gRegor` Quiet day in the IWC
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Loqi gRegor`: petermolnar left you a message 6 hours, 5 minutes ago: I will, though I ended up using the WordPress Keyring plugin in the end as framework
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@kevinmarks "@owenthomas: "I think it's a scary world if all the content is on Facebook." —@ev on Facebook's plans to host content #codemedia" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/568100253523509248)
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tantek "plans" ? more like existing practice!
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aaronpk is reading up on Docker
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aaronpk it appears to make it quite easy to install otherwise complicated apps like Gitlab
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tantek what is deployment?
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Loqi deployment is the both the act (to deploy), process, and specific instances (a deployment) of updating (and sometimes installing) software on a server, like a web server https://indiewebcamp.com/deployment
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aaronpk I was just lamenting my current Gitlab install which is one of the earliest versions and was a total nightmare
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tantek aaronpk, the problem(s) you have are more about *updates* (and thus the option to easily *revert*) than about *install*
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aaronpk they now ship Gitlab as a docker container with everytyhing you need: nginx, postgres, gitlab itself
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tantek that's what I realized last time I ran into the "install" problem
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tantek hence I abstracted that to "deployment"
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tantek what is a docker container?
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aaronpk yeah updating is the recurring problem. you should have seen the crap I had to go through to install this tho ;)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "docker container" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=docker+container&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-18%2Fline%2F1424281422022
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tantek what is docker?
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Loqi Docker is a collection of tools to manage Linux containers https://indiewebcamp.com/Docker
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tantek what is a Linux container?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Linux container" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Linux+container&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-18%2Fline%2F1424281447048
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tantek huh - that Docker dfn is not useful at all
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tantek makes the classic mistake of XYZ is something something meta to ABC
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tantek says nothing about how it is useful to a user, or especially an indieweb site user / maintainer
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tantek oh well, Docker is still opaque to me
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aaronpk it's more useful when your current installation instructions are like "first install nginx, then install postgres, then install redis, then install the app's source code, then configure a startup script..."
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tantek sure, but that's what things like macports do too
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tantek but I have a feeling Docker is more than that
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aaronpk what is macports? is that like homebrew?
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tantek it's just that people seem to suck at definitions for such Linux tools
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "macports? is that like homebrew" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=macports%3F+is+that+like+homebrew&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-18%2Fline%2F1424281745411
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aaronpk oops
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aaronpk haha
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tantek macports is like /homebrew, a software package installation manager for MacOS, that automatically installs (or updates) dependencies for whatever package you ask it to install or update.
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tantek aw Loqi why no wiki creation love
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aaronpk what is macports?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "macports" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=macports&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-18%2Fline%2F1424281812139
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tantek macports is like /homebrew, a software package installation manager for MacOS, that automatically installs (or updates) dependencies for whatever package you ask it to install or update.
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aaronpk oh yeah didn't i break this last night?
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tantek I keep hoping
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aaronpk gets out the screwdriver
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loqi.me created /macports (+213) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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tantek hey
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tantek :P
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aaronpk amazing what happens when you find the log files so can actually see what the error was
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aaronparecki.com edited /Docker (+54) "attempt to clarify dfn by describing why it's useful" (view diff)
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kylewm I thought this was an interesting read re: Docker... "Docker is unnecessary" http://iops.io/blog/docker-hype/
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aaronpk oh no
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kylewm "Docker adds an intrusive layer of complexity which makes development, troubleshooting and debugging frustratingly difficult, often creating more problems than it solves."
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aaronpk dammit that is the opposite of what I want
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kylewm that's just one dude :)
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aaronpk hm it seems that maybe he's trying to push it too far or make it do things it was not intended for
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kylewm this is more relevant to indieweb http://danger.computer/2014/09/15/ditching-docker-gitlab
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kylewm "I have no idea why my gitlab instance stopped working, I suspect it is something similar between the confluence of docker requiring constant maintenance and gitlab being fragile to set up to begin with."
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aaronpk here's what I want
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aaronpk I have an Ubuntu server at home. I want to install as little as possible on it to avoid the upgrade/maintenance cost, but I want to run things like Gitlab or other web apps on it
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aaronpk Docker seems like a great idea because I need to install *only* Docker on the computer
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kylewm any interest in trying Sandstorm?
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aaronpk then I can run apps packaged for Docker individually, so when I want to run Gitlab, I don't have to worry about whether it needs a different version of Postgres than some other app needs
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aaronpk what is Sandstorm?
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Loqi Sandstorm is open source software project that aims to make self-hosted personal clouds easy as well as offering a hosted paid version for less technically inclined users https://indiewebcamp.com/sandstorm
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kylewm it doesn't look like UBOS has gitlab yet
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aaronpk I guess I fall into a weird category
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kylewm I am actually fairly confused about Docker ... the little bit I read about it made it seem like you'd install MySQL and Postgres in separate containers from the app actually using them
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kylewm was that wrong?
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aaronpk I'm comfortable installing Ubuntu and running things on it, and I trust that they'll be around a while and continue to maintain it. So I'm less likely to want to install someone else's OS like UBOS (sorry j12t ;)
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aaronpk so it's the middle layer that I want abstracted for me, like I'd love to install Gitlab in a way where it installs whatever it needs but doesn't mess with my system
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kylewm similarly, I don't know trust the Sandstorm team to keep every app up to date, seems like it requires re-porting each time
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aaronpk agreed
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aaronpk kylewm: I think you *can* install mysql/postgres/nginx all on the same container but often people separate them
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aaronpk it seems there are also several ways to use Docker, including being able to autoscale a cluster of servers, which is when you'd want to separate the DB and web server and apps
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kylewm ahhh, that makes sense
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kylewm those seem like *very* different use cases
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aaronpk indeed
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kylewm.com edited /Docker (+247) "add link to gar's post about ditching Docker" (view diff)
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kylewm weird, I keep thinking he has logged into the wiki before, but apparently not
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2015/Cambridge/Guest_List (+280) "/* Apprentices */ add @lowellmower https://twitter.com/lowellmower/status/568086121827028992" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2015/Cambridge/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */ updating count" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+34) "/* Red Wind */ want (someone else) to build OwnYourScrobbles" (view diff)
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aaronpk I want to!
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kylewm aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 708 karma
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/16
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aaronpk been on my list for a while
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kylewm ha, cool
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aaronpk is there a word that includes scrobbles as well as tv/movie/reading?
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kylewm /media_checkin
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kylewm not that I am crazy about that name
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aaronpk what is a passive post?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "passive post" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=passive+post&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-18%2Fline%2F1424284455069
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aaronpk a passive post is a [[post]] that is created without the person taking an explicit action to create the post, such as listening to music or watching a movie
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aaronpk not crazy about that dfn but it's a start
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aaronpk passive post is a [[post]] that is created without the person taking an explicit action to create the post, such as listening to music or watching a movie
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aaronpk oh COME ON loqi
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aaronpk i think i missed the dfn window
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aaronpk what is a passive post?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "passive post" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=passive+post&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-02-18%2Fline%2F1424284697131
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aaronpk a passive post is a [[post]] that is created without the person taking an explicit action to create the post, such as listening to music or watching a movie
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loqi.me created /passive_post (+181) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-02-18/line/1424284697131 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /passive_post (+62) "see also" (view diff)
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kylewm aaronpk: http://i.imgur.com/pVy84nw.gif
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aaronpk hahaha
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aaronpk kylewm: what would you expect a micropub request with a scrobble to look like?
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aaronpk would it be like the data your last.fm client sends to last.fm? (name of the song, artist, etc from the mp3 tags)
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kylewm that's a good question
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i wonder if we shouldn't perhaps require any write to wiki commands require addressing loqi directly
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: nah this works fine :)
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kylewm or would it send an h=card for the artist, and then an h=entry for the scrobble
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kylewm or a card for the artist *and* song??
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aaronpk well let's start with examples in the wild :)
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kylewm i'm looking at http://acegiak.net/2015/02/18/i-fight-dragons-proxima-centauri-18-feb-2015-08-57/
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aaronpk https://mowens.com/data/2014/10/16/1/take-me-to-church-album-version
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aaronpk hm that's not very good... "album" and "artist" are opaque strings
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aaronpk they appear to be database IDs or something
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, okay, but first accidental wiki edit is on you :P
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: challenge accepted
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ben_thatmustbeme waits... and watches
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ben_thatmustbeme though i'm not sure thats a challenge
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aaronpk loqi won't overwrite pages, and will only create a page if a "what is" question has been asked within 3 minutes
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Loqi who, me?
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aaronpk seems unlikely that <3 minutes after someone asks "what is ___" that someone would accidentally say "___ is"
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ben_thatmustbeme well if someone asks something asinine in the chat, someone else is likely to respond
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aaronpk we'll see what happens :)
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kylewm canonical url for an artist or album is tough...
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aaronpk that's why i was thinking just send the name
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aaronpk your server can figure out what to do with it, whcih may even be just not linking it anywhere
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kylewm yeah, agreed
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kylewm collisions are pretty common inside last.fm, but unlikely in my music collection
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aaronpk oh that reminds me...
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aaronpk right now Teacup is sending micropub requests with h=entry&p3k-food=X&p3k-type=drink&location=X
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aaronpk should I also be sending "content=drank a coffee" as a fallback?
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aaronpk for micropub endpoints that don't know about the fancy properties?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i would suggest yes
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aaronpk presumably a scrobble micropub client would do the same... "listened to _____" as well as the special properties
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ben_thatmustbeme i like the notion though
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kylewm yeah I think so too
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aaronpk cause then you could take a new wordpress blog, install the micropub plugin, then start using both
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aaronpk and they'd just show up as regular posts
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i may have to update MobilePub to do p3k-food to p3k-type
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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ben_thatmustbeme wait, so p3k-food=X&p3k-type=drink would be what exactly?
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ben_thatmustbeme is drink a type of food X?
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aaronpk "drank an X"
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm
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ben_thatmustbeme p3k-food seems like an odd name then if its not necessarily food
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aaronpk that's why it's a p3k- scoped name right now ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, offering constructive criticism
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aaronpk i can't remember why I didn't do p3k-food and p3k-drink and no "type"
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ben_thatmustbeme it allows for other things like umm, pills?
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ben_thatmustbeme i like the idea of type, allows expansion, might want to get more refined to meal vs snack, etc
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aaronpk i'm also not tracking any notion of size or units
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aaronpk because that took too much effort to record
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ben_thatmustbeme p3k-item p3k-type ?
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aaronpk maybe "consume"
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aaronpk "item" is meaningless
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ben_thatmustbeme type is pretty generic too unless you happen to already check for consume
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ben_thatmustbeme is p3k-consume p3k-consume-type getting too wordy?
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@AmrEldib Rise of the IndieWeb - Amber Case http://www.amreldib.com/linkblog/RiseOfIndieWeb/ (twitter.com/_/status/568123107417980929)
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ben_thatmustbeme actually probably the most sensible way is to start with the mf markup of it, that should tell you how to do your mp fields
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aaronpk of course
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aaronpk hm looks like I did switch to publishing "p3k-food" and "p3k-drink" on my site
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aaronpk I should change what Teacup is sending to match
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Loqi I agree
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loqi.me created /frequency_Kenneth (+71) "prompted by ben_thatmustbeme and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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tantek whoa busy in here
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kylewm !tell petermolnar i sympathize about the extra space copied from api key/secret. i've done that more times than is reasonable.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com created /W3C_Social_Web_Workshop (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /W3C_Social_Standards_Workshop (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /W3C_Workshop_on_Social_Standards (+25) "r" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu loqi playback?
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GWG !tell pfefferle I am done for now.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Hmm... Scrobbling talk
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ben_thatmustbeme always sees Scrobble as Scobble
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GWG Ben_thatmustbeme: Are you interested in passive posting?
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG yes, i want to get something to PESOS last.fm to my site
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aaronpk yeah I think I gotta make ownyourscrobbles next
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ben_thatmustbeme i set Google Music to scrobble tot here, just need to get that last bit
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GWG I am trying to decide what I want to post passively
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aaronpk i keep thinking i should try google music
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GWG I keep meaning to finish setting up my own thing
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GWG It is too cold for me to passively post weather.
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ben_thatmustbeme i wish Google music had more of an international selection
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aaronparecki.com edited /passive_post (+14) "weather" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme but music biz licensing = :(
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GWG I buy music
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aaronpk i thought the point of google music is that you can upload your own stuff
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GWG Maybe until spring I'll use a weather API
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GWG Aaronpk, you can do both
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aaronpk yeah that's what I thought
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GWG But I assumed that when he said selection...
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KevinMarks both is the good part. Also you can install the uploader on multiple machines and it uploads and dedupes thema ll
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KevinMarks musicbrainz is decent "canonical URL for music" arrmept
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KevinMarks s/arrmept/attempt/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: musicbrainz is decent "canonical URL for music" attempt
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KevinMarks google music also bridges to youtube, which does help with selection
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aaronpk i don't think canonical URL for music is an important problem to solve
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aaronpk you should have your own URL for music even if you want to point to the musicbrainz or last.fm version too
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Loqi I agree
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KevinMarks yes
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aaronpk it's similar to how you should have your own venue URLs and not rely on foursquare
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KevinMarks the content resolver idea is a good one
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KevinMarks reviving some of xspf's ideas in mf2 seems like a good idea http://www.xspf.org/
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aaronpk heh they made jspf too (json version)
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tantek KevinMarks: nah, maybe as research source material, but the methodology used to develop xspf was too flawed
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KevinMarks the spec has the most amusing paragraph labelling ever http://www.xspf.org/orig-xspf-v1.html
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tantek.com created /jsonld (+21) "r" (view diff)
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /User:Wwelves.org_perpetual-tripper (+163) "/* Itches */ selfhost photos" (view diff)
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snarfed aaronpk, tiny teacup bug report: the html title on https://teacup.p3k.io/ is 'Quill', not 'Teacup'
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk thx
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, minor thing
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gRegor` ben_thatmust: Are you scrobbling from Google Music web, or just the app? I'm curious about the former.
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sixtwothree.org edited /2015/Cambridge/Guest_List (+249) "/* Remote Participants */ RSVPing for self." (view diff)
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Loqi [bridgy] Jason Garber replied '@dissolve333 @kevinmarks I'll try to pop in on IRC throughout the day! Looking forward to seeing what everyone's working on.' to a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge (https://twitter.com/jgarber/status/568183410453286912)
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acegiak snarfed: "tiny teacup bug report" is the most adorable mental image
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acegiak kylewm: did we decide if I need to change the way I'm displaying scrobbles?
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kylewm acegiak: I don't think so, was that up for debate? they look fine in woodwind: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38780898/acegiak-scrobbles.png
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snarfed acegiak: if only it was opengl :P
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kylewm acegiak: my work's virus scan thinks http://acegiak.machinespirit.net/ is unsafe for some reason
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kylewm unfortunately it doesn't say why
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acegiak kylewm: my server's been compromised and abused a couple of times
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acegiak so it's probably still holding the warning from that
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acegiak kylewm: so woodwind is just showing the post title. cool
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kylewm yeah it mostly just shows "name" and "content"
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kylewm possibly also photo?
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snarfed aaronpk: just fyi, got a 500 from indieauth right now with this: curl -i -d 'code=…&me=https://snarfed.org&redirect_uri=https://indieauth.com/success' 'https://tokens.indieauth.com/token'
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aaronpk yikes
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snarfed error was "Undefined index: client_id"
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snarfed i'm crafting post bodies by hand so users may not ever hit that code path
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