#indiewebcamp 2015-03-15

2015-03-15 UTC
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KartikPrabhu
tjgillies: your site is giving a "Oh no! We couldn't connect to the database. "
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pdurbin
KartikPrabhu: don't get people in here going about databases ;)
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KartikPrabhu
pdurbin: you mean me :P
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aaronpk
tantek: I don't even know how to "find the first h-feed" given the parsed result
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aaronpk
like, I don't know what the appropriate behavior is
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tantek
all other things being equal, such linear order references "first h-feed" refer to document source order
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aaronpk
but i'm not reading the document source
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tantek
I'm telling you how the instructions are unambiguous
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aaronpk
so the mf2 parsers don't help with that
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I think aaronpk wants to use the mf2 parsed result
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tantek
if you're working with a tree, e.g. DOM tree, parsed microformats tree, then such linearization can be simulated with a depth first traversal.
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aaronpk
okay so depth-first-search of http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F looking for the first object that matches {type:["h-feed"]} in the "items" array or in any children of any objects?
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tantek
that raises a good question
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loqi.me
created /centurylink (+121) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by aaronpk"
(view diff)
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tantek
should any embedded objects, e.g. on a property, also be part of the children collection of an object?
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aaronpk
you have an example of that, you have an h-org as one of the categories
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tantek
e.g. what if my h-feed was on an element like <ol class="e-x-posts h-feed"> inside my h-cad?
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aaronpk
my DFS could also include properties, not just children
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tantek
except there is no way to preserve order of objects across properties vs. children
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aaronpk
oh right :(
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tantek
however, if all property objects were in the children collection, then they could have a canonical order there
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aaronpk
well this is irritating. MVP is to not make it support tantek.com
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aaronpk
but that seems less than ideal for a demo
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tantek
sounds like you're questioning the V in that
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aaronpk
i think barnaby's mf-cleaner may have enough functions to piece this together actually
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aaronpk
tantek: why do you have a blank p-name for your h-feed? <span class="p-name"></span>
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tantek
because I didn't want an implied nor artificial name
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aaronpk
what am I supposed to do with that?
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tantek
I wanted to suppress an automatic excessively noisy implied p-name
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aaronpk
but not put in something useful there?
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tantek
there was nothing in the existing visual design to put in there, ergo nothing
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tantek
I wasn't going to make something up just for plumbing
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aaronpk
well I need a name for it, so what should I use?
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tantek
why do you need a name for it?
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aaronpk
all over the interface
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tantek
the interface to following my home page right?
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aaronpk
following and unfollowing
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aaronpk
and browsing content
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tantek
my home page has a name
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tantek
right there at the top object, as all pages with a top level microformat object do
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aaronpk
so the "name" property of the first item?
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aaronpk
is that always safe?
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aaronpk
nope. that doesn't work for my site, since I don't have a top-level h-feed object
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aaronpk
my first item is my most recent note
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aaronpk
I think i'm not going to name feeds, at least not for now. I'm just going to use the URL as the name.
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tantek
right - that's why I asked about *why* you needed it
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aaronpk
I thought it would be nice to show a name other than the URL, but we'll see how this goes
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tantek
my point was you could show the name of the feed, or if empty, fall back to the name of the top level object for the page
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tantek
both of which are in the microformats parsed JSON
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aaronpk
but the top level object of my home page is my first note, so that wouldn't work for it
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tantek
not your h-feed?
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aaronpk
i don't have an h-feed
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tantek
a-ha! so we have to solve this problem anyway
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tantek
this is always the challenge with writing code that consumes information
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aaronpk
indeed
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tantek
you have to handle real world publishing practices, whatever they may be
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aaronpk
unless you put the burden on the publishers to publish against super strict rules
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tantek
unfortunately previous attempts give into the temptation to place rules on publishers
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tantek
e.g. "required" properties and crap like that
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tantek
which just equates to fragility
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tantek
people writing consuming code / parsers assume they can depend on something just because they legislated it
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tantek
as if they have the right to demand more burdens of publishers
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aaronpk
and that usually leads to horrible errors surfaced to the user
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tantek
exactly
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tantek
like XML fragility
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tantek
all of that is bound up in the same flawed methodology
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tjgillies
KartikPrabhu: yeah database was taking up too much memory its down for the moment heh
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tantek
tjgillies: which database?
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tjgillies
mysql
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tjgillies
i only have like 1 gig of ram on that box
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tantek
worth documenting on /MySQL#Issues ?
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tjgillies
is that a wiki page on indiewebcamp?
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tjgillies
Thinking about using matrix.org to create my own indie frontend
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tjgillies
that uses their api for federation and storage
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GWG
Why do all roads for me lead to pfefferle?
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GWG
What is missing is icons that identify relationships.
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aaronpk
well I +1'd the request to font-awesome to add a microformats logo, feel free to chime in with +1s https://github.com/FortAwesome/Font-Awesome/issues/1854
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tantek
oh that's an interesting use
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tantek
though why not just use the feed icon for both?
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aaronpk
the "feed icon"?
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aaronpk
i was under impression that was an RSS icon
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GWG
aaronpk: That is what they want you to think.
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tjgillies
lol
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tjgillies
i call it the undulation icon
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tjgillies
since thats technically what it represents
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tjgillies
allegory for radio waves
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KevinMarks
I wonder if people now see it as a wifi icon instead
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aaronpk
heh it's pretty close
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aaronpk
did Atom ever get its own logo or does it just use the RSS one?
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tantek
aaronpk - that's not an RSS logo - the standard "feed" logo was actually done / designed by Mozilla, and openly licensed for anyone to use as a "feed"
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tantek
independent of format
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tantek
there was an Atom logo yes
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tantek
you can see it as part of the "Valid Atom 1.0" badges that you used to see on websites along with other valid html etc.
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snarfed
hey GWG, i'm getting this error from semantic-linkbacks:
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snarfed
PHP Warning: array_intersect(): Argument #2 is not an array in .../semantic-linkbacks-microformats-handler.php on line 339
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snarfed
also on line 287
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snarfed
doesn't sound like a PHP version incompatibility…? or does it?
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ben_thatmustbeme
Excellent mobilepub login/logout works fine
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GWG
I've never done anything in the handler file, to my recollection.
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ben_thatmustbeme
Should be able to demo at f2f
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snarfed
sure, i don't mean to blame you, more just looking for help :P
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snarfed
sounds like php-mf2 started returning the type property as a non-array?
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aaronpk
that doesn't seem possible
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snarfed
agreed
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GWG
snarfed: I didn't mean blame...I just was saying I hadn't familiarized myself with it
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snarfed
got it
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snarfed
in both instances, the code looks like this:
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snarfed
foreach ($entry['properties'] as $key => $values) {
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snarfed
foreach ($values as $obj) {
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snarfed
if (isset($obj['type']) && array_intersect(array('h-cite', 'h-entry'), $obj['type'])) {
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GWG
snarfed: the object you are trying to parse...what is it?
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GWG
I'm looking at the line as well
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GWG
But, could it be a type the parser doesn't know?
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snarfed
GWG: i've never worked on this code, i'm just guessing based on reading it
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snarfed
upgraded the plugin on my site a bit ago and started seeing this
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snarfed
in the code snippet i pasted above, i think $entry is a parsed mf2 object
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GWG
Well, I know one thing in the last update broke my site.
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snarfed
…care to elaborate?
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GWG
pfefferle made an improvement that relies on a bugfix in WordPress core that won't be deployed until 4.2.
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GWG
He's running the beta
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snarfed
jkkm,njhyhmn,,nm nmnnmnmn
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snarfed
erm, sorry
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snarfed
GWG: interesting! this doesn't sound like that though, if you look at the error messag
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snarfed
array_splice() is a php builtin
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snarfed
er, sorry, array_intersect()
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GWG
I think it is what is being presented to it, not the command.
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snarfed
huh, ok
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snarfed
odd though, i think it's working on my local wp, which is also 4.1.1
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snarfed
eh. i'll keep digging.
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GWG
Keep me posted. I'm always curious.
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snarfed
GWG: figured it out. i'll cc you on the issue
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@humanproject
Works for humans IFF #IndieWeb #PersonalDataStore #RightToRecord & livable #BasicIncome @dane @Corning https://www.youtube.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/576953712196878337)
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matrixrelay
@kodomulo:tyler.cat: waves through the portal
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tjgillies
waves back
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bret
wow, trivial screen capture gifs: http://www.cockos.com/licecap/
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@xtof_fr
@pierreozoux un #indiewebcamp pour le prochain #openchateau début juin ? http://christopheducamp.com/2015-074/
(twitter.com/_/status/577022960030085120)
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christopheducamp.com
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+327) "/* Participants */ added myself 25 participants 25 spots remaining"
(view diff)
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@pierreozoux
@xtof_fr je suis de passage á Paris pour le @OuiShareLabs et on va parler #IndieWeb Mais en juin pas possible :/
(twitter.com/_/status/577052460918927361)
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pwcc
Sorry for hashtag spam, indiewebcamp, was testing a noterlive patch. Will ask Loqi for help.
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Loqi
dude
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pwcc
!spammer pwcc_dev
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Loqi
Only aaronpk and tantek can do that
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pwcc
That's a sad story.
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GWG
Good morning, all
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pdurbin
GWG: mornin'
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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GWG
Countdown to Cambridge...
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pdurbin
GWG: wish I could come. Will there be any events in the evening? A dinner I could crash or something?
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GWG
pdurbin: The schedule implies yay
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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GWG
I also have to finalize my transportation.
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pdurbin
GWG: ok, based on http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Cambridge I just put dinner at 18:00 after day 1 in my calendar. Will see if I my wife can pick up the kids from school that night. Thanks. :)
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tantek
pdurbin: would be great to see you even if just at dinner
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pdurbin
tantek: yes! I'll try!
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jonnybarnes.uk
edited /User:Jonnybarnes.uk (+719) "/* Jonny Barnes */ Adding stuff and h-card to my User page as per /wikifying"
(view diff)
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jonnybarnes
How do people get just their name in the IRC logs?
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jonnybarnes
Oh its just the Loqi entry that lists my domain instead of username
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jonnybarnes
is that normal aaronpk ?
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tantek
jonnybarnes: yes it's normal :)
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petermolnar
every single time I see Cambridge I bright up as I do live in Cambridge... just in the one in the UK....
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Loqi
petermolnar: snarfed left you a message 1 day ago: re finding twitter @-replies, yup, well known problem. sad that the API doesn't support it. :( best way seems to be to search for @username and then filter by in-reply-to field. more details: https://indiewebcamp.com/backfeed#Twitter , https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/twitter.py#L309 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-14/line/1426349206790
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> With this relay we have interop between slack and matrix.org through irc as a medium #mindblown
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tantek
matrixrelay: what does <@kodomulo:tyler.cat> mean?
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> This is kodomulo at the domain tyler.cat speaking in a federated room on the matrix network
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aaronpk
wouldn't kodumulo@tyler.cat make more sense then?
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tantek
aaronpk - except that looks like an email address :/
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> matrix.org name format is @name:domain
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tantek
(when it's not = cognitive dissonance)
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I guess I could rewrite it to make you guys happy, it's just display at this point
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aaronpk
maybe matrix realized that and chose that alternate format because of it
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tantek
kodomulo - the use of ":" that way is also the opposite of XML NS conventions which makes it confusing too!
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Mark87
its extra confusing tho
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I didn't make the format, noted though :)
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I'll change the display in the relay
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tantek
I think the domain/user method we used for slack etc seems to work
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tantek
wondering if that's documented anywhere
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tantek
in case anyone wants to add any other bridges!
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tjgillies
like tyler.cat/kodomulo?
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Mark87
my mind is exploding. Is it url format? username=null, domain = kodomulo, port=tyler.cat? Or is it username = @kodomulo, password=tyler.cat? I'm so confused
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tjgillies
matrix has federated channels too. my relay is on #irc/indieweb:tyler.cat
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aaronpk
yay finally renewed the cert for ownyourgram.com
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tjgillies
woo
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tjgillies
i use cloudflare they give you unlimited certs for every domain under dns for free
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tjgillies
subdomains as well
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tjgillies
check out the cert on https://tylergillies.club
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tjgillies
and it's automatic, no need to configure webserver
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tjgillies
aaronpk: You need to set your authorization endpoint in a <link> tag on your home page or in an HTTP header.
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tjgillies
is this new?
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aaronpk
it has always been like that for ownyourgram
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tjgillies
my auth endpoint is index.html heh
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tjgillies
ah
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aaronpk
it's because it needs to get an access token to post to your site
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tjgillies
ahh
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tjgillies
gotcha
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aaronpk
if it's just trying to sign you in then it could use indieauth.com or do relmeauth itself
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tjgillies
the downside to have a static indie site is that its hard to push stuff to it ;)
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tjgillies
having*
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pdurbin
tjgillies: I've been thinking I should put a git client on my phone for this. To push to my static site.
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tjgillies
I mean programatically
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pdurbin
would make for easy offline reading too
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tjgillies
like ownyourgram and such
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pdurbin
I'm not following but that's ok.
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tjgillies
I guess I could setup a remote api that accepts command then does git commit and pushes to github
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tjgillies
edrex was talking about something similar at homebrew website meeting
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tjgillies
using gitfish
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tjgillies
although that looks like post commit hook. I need something that does the inverse
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@hmans
@epirat (Note: Pants' current code isn't really a great example of an indieweb implementation. Hence indiepants.)
(twitter.com/_/status/577155653959081984)
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@ePirat
@hmans so if I implement indieweb correctly, will my blog thingy be able to communicate with pants? (and indiepants?)
(twitter.com/_/status/577155906581970944)
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@hmans
@epirat Pants: in parts. IndieWeb: 100%.
(twitter.com/_/status/577156003843674115)
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aaronpk
bret has a micropub endpoint that commits to his site
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aaronpk
tjgillies: pdurbin: ^
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@hmans
@epirat IndiePants hat nur noch minimale Nicht-IndieWeb-Sachen, in erster Linie für Pants-Mobile-Clients.
(twitter.com/_/status/577156270714699776)
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> indiepants?
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aaronpk
what is indiepants?
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aaronpk
what is pants?
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Loqi
Pants is the name of the software User:hmans.io is developing https://indiewebcamp.com/Pants
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KevinMarks___
Noterlive patch pwcc?
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> ah!
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hmans
aaronpk, IndiePants isn't really a separate project, but it _is_ a fresh rewrite, putting Pants completely on IndieWeb ideas.
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aaronpk
indiepants is /Pants
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loqi.me
created /indiepants (+18) "prompted by aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-15/line/1426439986492 and dfn added by aaronpk"
(view diff)
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> I don't have pants
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> installed
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> oh its a rails project
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> marvelous, I was gonna write one from scratch but this is much better
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> needs to learn rails again
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hmans
aaronpk, it's both a blog engine and an aggregator; you can follow "any" indieweb user, and it'll go through various things (ATOM/RSS, h-entry, h-feed etc.) to try and pull their posts. I've also implemented u-like-of et al.
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> bravo!
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> but why... pants?
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aaronpk
wow! would it be considered a reader then?
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hmans
But it's not really in a good place to use right now. The old code base is "not enough indieweb", the new (indiepants) is about 70% done, but we're in the middle of moving house right now, so it needs to wait for a couple of weeks.
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> seems a bit peculiar
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hmans
I was thinking about other names at some point, but always came back to Pants, it just stuck.
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hmans
aaronpk, pretty much -- but it is shoehorning remote posts into a "social feed" structure (instead of giving you a feed-reader like interface. If that makes sense?)
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> sticky pants
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hmans
The overall goal (regarding UX) is to emulate a Facebook-ish social network without the centralized, silo bits.
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bret
tjgillies: I have set up something similar to what edrex was talking about. It needs some work though, but conceptually automating a git workflow is all you need to add new stuff
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> nice
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aaronpk
hmans: yeah the "feed-reader-like interface" is kind of old
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tjgillies
bret: ah yeah thats what im looking for
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bret
I'm in the process of breaking it into small modules
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hmans
Pants has a (very simple) API for (mobile) clients, a friend is working on some basic clients for Android and iOS. Idea here is that it works "just" like any other social network, except you log in to your own site (and not the network provider's.)
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aaronpk
hmans: have you checked out micropub yet?
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GWG
ponders improvements again
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voxpelli
bret: great to hear you're still working on it :) would so love to start using something like that for my jekyll-blog
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bret
voxpelli: school and work has left me little time to work on it
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bret
i've only had time for smaller projects along with my school project
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bret
this should all change relatively soon
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voxpelli
bret: I know the feeling :P my webmention project hasn't got many updates these past few months
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bret
hey at least it works!
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voxpelli
bret: :) feel free to ping me in some issues or PR:s on GitHub or so btw if you want some brainstorm/code review/other help
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bret
will do!
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voxpelli
good coding standards tools makes everything else so much simpler
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fkooman
ben_thatmustbeme: do you still remember what the issue was with distributed indieauth on your server?
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hmans
aaronpk, absolutely -- and I am planning on supporting it, obviously.
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aaronpk
sometimes deciding where to put buttons really stresses me out
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tantek
can you start with no buttons?
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aaronpk
i guess so
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aaronpk
but it'll help for debugging
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aaronpk
i need an "update" button for each feed, to force a refresh
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shaners
Howdy, all. Long time.
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aaronpk
shaners!
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shaners
We're working on some Micropub stuff for Homesteading.
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shaners
And I vaguely remember talk of a kind of sorting hat algorithm for determining which kind of post an incoming `h-entry` is based on its attributes.
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shaners
Like, if it has a `content` and no `name`, it's *probably* a Note.
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aaronpk
yes, or possibly also post type is not important, you can just store the attributes that are found and display it accordingly
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shaners
@aaronpk @tantek Do you remember anything like that being discussed?
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aaronpk
post type is mostly an implementation detail within a site
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shaners
Agreed. It's an implementation detail that I happen to care about. ;)
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aaronpk
because an h-entry may have any number of attributes such as content, name, photo, icon, location, etc.
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shaners
Here's a use case.
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shaners
An h-entry with photo, content, and name.
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shaners
Depending on the creator's intent, that's either a blog post or a photo. Medium vs Flickr.
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shaners
I want to be able to treat them as different things.
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bret
hey shaners!
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shaners
Hi @bret 👋
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bret
🙌
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bret
have any cool new screenshots?
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aaronpk
okay you're saying you may want to display two h-entrys differently even though they both have photo, content, and name properties?
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bret
or stuff i can lookat?
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shaners
We're kinda thinking about using a vendor prefixed attr like, `as-type` or `as-post-type`.
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voxpelli
shaners: u-photo isn't enough?
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shaners
aaronpk: correct.
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bret
yeah i display photos from instagram vs panoramas differently 4sho
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aaronpk
and why does the blog post have a "photo" property?
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shaners
because that's a thing that people do:
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aaronpk
that looks like a featured image
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aaronpk
would that satisfy the use case?
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shaners
Oh. I thought we were using `u-photo` for for that.
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shaners
reading
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aaronpk
i think the issue you're encountering came up more than once and we were trying to sort it out
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bret
shaners: lookin good!
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shaners
Thanks, bret.
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shaners
What is h-entry?
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Loqi
h-entry is the microformats2 vocabulary for marking up blog posts on web sites https://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry
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aaronpk
well that's a misleading definition ;)
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shaners
(quicker than typing the url)
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shaners
Ok. So, I guess we could infer that `h-entry` with a child `u-photo` is a photo post?
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voxpelli
Sounds like a good idea from reading the wiki at least
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aaronpk
well I also include a u-photo on my running posts where I also uploaded a photo
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aaronpk
that may be enough of an edge case for you to ignore for now ;)
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voxpelli
aaronpk: is that what caused the "unless there is a p-location h-card" on the wiki ;)
#
aaronpk
no that sounds like a checkin
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shaners
Another ambiguity is around the quantified self / metrics posts.
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shaners
@aaronpk: you're treating them as Notes, right?
#
voxpelli
oh, so you're running is a geo-post that isn't a checkin – the permutations of the different kinds of posts :P
#
aaronpk
yeah my run posts have a route and properties like distance, avg speed
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aaronpk
but the code that deals with the photo for them is the same as for my regular photo posts
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Mark87
this sounds like a project I built once before.... You can infer that an h-entry iwht a u-photo is a photo post, but what happens when I post an album as a blog post? There will be multiple u-photos. Just look at facebook
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aaronpk
it's just like "hey is there a photo property? if so, spit out this template"
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shaners
@aaronpk: Do you use `h-as-note` or `h-as-*` anywhere on your site?
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aaronpk
shaners: no, i've avoided all of the activitystreams stuff for now
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shaners
Ok. Me and @tantek both have `h-entry h-as-note` on our notes. But we've (a while ago) agreed that it should prolly just be `h-entry h-as-note` since it's only being used for styling by each of us.
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voxpelli
where's more docs on the h-as? I know I experimented with it about four years ago, but haven't kept up to date on it
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shaners
What if we added an optional `as=` attribute on a micropub payload for more specificity?
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shaners
@voxpelli: there aren't docs on it. It was an experiment.
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: any thoughts on that, since you've implemented a much more thorough micropub posting interface?
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voxpelli
shaners: oh, but no notes on it or anything? I only experimented with it pre-mf2 and only used it for verbs, not for object types
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aaronpk
shaners: interestingly I read that as the english "as" rather than an acronym of activity streams, so I would read "h=entry&as=photo" as "a post as a photo"
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voxpelli
or – I apparently used both without separating them: https://plus.google.com/+PelleWessman/posts/VSiMYVKgDan :P
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shaners
@aaronpk: Exactly. That's the thing I like too.
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shaners
@voxpelli: I only use AS for their vocabulary research. Not any of their Atom/JSON implementation. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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voxpelli
shaners: I've done both – but the vocabulary research they did for both verbs and objects – would be nice to use the verbs and objects in mf2 as yeah – it's solid work on the research
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tantek
I suppose it's my fault for planting the h-as-* idea, I think it was as a result of FSWS2012 discussions.
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aaronpk
voxpelli: I believe AS2.0 is moving away from using verbs
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tantek
over 2 years later, I don't think it was a useful experiment and am considering dropping all the h-as-* class names
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tantek
I'm more than ever convinced that explicit post typing in a format is not justified by current use-cases
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shaners
@tantek: I'm going to drop the h- part but keep the as-note (mainly for CSSery)
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aaronpk
tantek: we should document the occurrences of when explicit post typing starts to look like a good idea
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tantek
and that the AS design biases in that direction are mis-informed or based on flawed assumptions
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aaronpk
like the example shaners ran into with the featured image for a blog post
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tantek
aaronpk - the *only* scenario I can think of offhand is when a user actually chooses in a UI the post type
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tantek
that they want regardless of whatever else they add to the post
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aaronpk
yes but even most posting interfaces are moving away from that model
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tantek
exactly my point
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voxpelli
+1, in reality very few scenarios fit one of the defined types as everyone has their own twist on things
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tantek
I think explicit post typing was purely an evolutionary step, and we can move beyond it now
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aaronpk
i'm still unclear on checkins, probably because i still haven't implemented it myself
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tantek
thus we should discourage adding explicit post typing to anything, whether UI, implementation, protocols, or formats
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tantek
including micropub
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aaronpk
it seems that an h-entry with content and location could be either a note with location or a checkin with a comment, so we need to figure that one out
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shaners
tantek: I still think there is room for different kinds of posting interfaces. I like the explicit separate post types / UIs.
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tantek
aaronpk - indeed - we need to figure that one out by looking at how are users creating those posts and what are their apparent intentions - can we find any patterns among the existing UIs / implementations?
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aaronpk
i haven't sat down to figure it out yet, which is one of the reasons i still haven't added checkins to my site
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shaners
@aaronpk: How do you differentiate between a Note and a Weigh-in or "Drank a coffee"? Are those all just notes?
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voxpelli
what is important is probably presentation hints rather than explicit types
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tantek
shaners: there's always opportunity to experiment with new user interfaces. I think aaronpk and I are just summarizing the current trends.
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tantek
which is moving away from explicit post typing, both in UIs, and formats.
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aaronpk
shaners: i have some experimental attributes on my food/drink posts
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tantek
thus I think there would have be compelling use-cases to justify them
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aaronpk
right now p3k is more post-type-aware than I'd like it to be
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aaronpk
and as i've been devleoping it, i've regretted making it so explicitly aware of post types in many cases
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aaronpk
it's mostly an internal architecture thing
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shaners
Is that regret as a user or developer (or both)?
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aaronpk
as a developer
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aaronpk
actually somewhat as a user too
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Mark87
the alternative to keying off explicit post types is keying off an arbitrary number of property combinations. Which is easier?
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aaronpk
Mark87: no, the alternative is to not care about explicit post types
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tantek
I know benwerd has expressed similarly about Known's post creation UI - that he's seen people continually stumble at the "pick a post kind" step.
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shaners
@aaronpk: In HS, we have a core Post (with common attrs) that all other post type build on top of.
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aaronpk
shaners: yeah same with p3k
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aaronpk
but then I quickly ran into the case of "I want a photo to be presented identically on many post types other than a photo post"
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Loqi
gives aaronpk a photo to be presented identically on many post types other than a photo post"
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voxpelli
the importance of "types" is mostly in giving presentation hints to indiereaders and webmentions presentations though?
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shaners
@voxpelli: And presentation on your own site.
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voxpelli
shaners: yeah, unless you want to add extra personal data for pure presentation on your own site
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shaners
And for me (and work on Homesteading), some post types will be embeddable into other posts.
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Mark87
@aaronpk You will still care about combinations. I.e., if e-content present, show this interface, unless a u-photo is present, then show this interface. "Well just show or a hide a standard photo presentation and its easy". What if you have several u-photos because the post is an entire album?
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tantek
what is FSWS2012
#
Loqi
The Federated Social Web Summit was an annual event from 2010-2012 https://indiewebcamp.com/fsws2012
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aaronpk
Mark87: i plan to deal with that as it happens, not try to overthink it before making any progress
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shaners
@voxpelli: For example, I'm writing an article (or note or checkin), and want to plop a photo/video/audio from my own past posts (a la media library) into this new post.
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shaners
In that case, post type matters (for me).
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Mark87
@aaronpk, sure that's fine. That's in line with the whole ethos of indieweb. I'm just saying that at some point, you have to choose what you support, and its easier to say "I support h-entrys" rather than "I support bundles of properties in these combinations"
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tantek
saying what user features you support > saying what plumbing you support
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Mark87
absolutely
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voxpelli
shaners: and you don't want the photo to change the "type" thus you want to explicitly tell that the post isn't a photo "type" post?
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tantek
voxpelli: I think that's the key distinction. This isn't about what the post type "is", but rather, did the user take an explicit action to create a *specific* post type.
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tantek
like mabe "created-type" or something
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tantek
which also affords the possibility of having a UI for users to *change* the type of post (why not?)
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tantek
e.g. I write a note, and later with an update I expand it to a blog post.
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tantek
i.e. article with explicit title, more paragraphs etc.
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tantek
could similarly happen with posting a photo with caption, and turning it into a blog post
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tantek
real world example: I kind of did that yesterday, by posting a photo on IG with a note (more than a short caption), and then later turning all that content into a blog post on my own site
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tantek
That felt more like "updating" my previous post, expanding it, rather than "embedding" my previous post in a new post.
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tantek
the copy and paste of the prose in particular from photo "caption" to blog post prose really made the difference for me, in terms of update vs. embed
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voxpelli
Another direction would be to mark up some of the content as the primary/central ones (u-featured?) as opposed to more peripheral data?
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voxpelli
So in case many presentation hints collide (is it primarily geo, photo or content) one can say: This is primary geo
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tantek
subsequent "update" (manual PESOS?) on my own site into a blog post: http://tantek.com/2015/073/t1/big-basin-morning-run
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tantek
voxpelli: that's just renaming the problem from "type" to "primary" ;)
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tantek.com
edited /Federated_Social_Web_Summit (-19) "/* San Francisco 2012 */ use of h-as-* may have started here, I don't remember offhand if I implemented it myself before the summit"
(view diff)
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voxpelli
tantek: https://plus.google.com/+PelleWessman/posts/VSiMYVKgDan says it was in use before that meeting actually :P
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voxpelli
tantek: I'm thinking more like a flag rather than added content – if you have a photo, a geo and a blog post content marked up – then adding a flag to one or more of them telling that your primary intent and focus of the post is to those one or more particular parts and the other is just additional data that's not your prime focus or intent of the post
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voxpelli
– thus providing a presentation hint on what content a indiereader should put in center if in doubt
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tantek
voxpelli: perhaps h-as-* vs. as-* ;)
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah, saw that it was the mf2-version you referenced now :P
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tantek
still, prior art is prior art! should document that earlier reference also
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tantek
ah, back when we had comment threads on G+. those were the times :)
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Loqi
slack/shaners: What is G+?
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aaronpk
sorry loqi triggers aren't working from slack
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aaronpk
most of them anyway
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Loqi
slack/shaners: Oh well.
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tantek
Loqi prefers IRC users :)
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Loqi
yeah!
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Loqi
slack/shaners: <@U03QR2B3P>: Feature request: convert `Loqi slack/shaners` into `shaners`.
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Loqi
slack/shaners: Ah jeez. I'm just making a mess. Sorry!
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shaners
I'll stick to an IRC client for now.
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shaners
So. Kind of related to my request to add `as=note` to a micropub payload...
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shaners
...HS has title and subtitle on most all posts (except notes)
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voxpelli
tantek: are there are flag/bool kind of mf2-properties?
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voxpelli
One usecase for the ".x-primary" would be to know if a "u-like-of" or the "e-content" is the primary focus of the post and thus whether to render it in a facepile or as a standalone comment
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shaners
@aaronpk: Any reason you see that I can't send `title=foo&subtitle=bar&name=foo+%20+-%20+bar?
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voxpelli
Right now my WebMention endpoint treats all h-entries with a "u-like-of" as being a "like-type" post – which limits the ways people can experiment with different kinds of likes
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aaronpk
voxpelli: there is no content for like-of normally, so if it has content it would be more than a like
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aaronpk
and you could render it as a comment
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tantek
voxpelli: it represents how people implement likes
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tantek
if you want to experiment, you can do so with content / presentation - no need for plumbing
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tantek
that is, don't let plumbing limitations stop your *visual* *human readable* experiments
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aaronpk
shaners: it's "name" instead of "title", and I don't see any reason you couldn't send "subtitle" too. that's not the same as summary, right?
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tantek
because such visual human readable experiments are how we discuss whether any new plumbing is necessary or useful or not
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voxpelli
the only way I can experiment with rendering them inside/outside facepile is by guessing what the intent is by sniffing different parameters of the post and trying to find an intent/focus in there :P
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shaners
It's not the same as summary, no.
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tantek
voxpelli: no I mean your own responses, not your rendering of others'
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shaners
aaronpk: But in my view, I wrap .p-name around both title and subtitle. So parsers get both, not just title.
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shaners
So, to me name != title.
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voxpelli
tantek: ok, I see what you mean
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tantek.com
edited /ActivityStreams (+523) "/* Use with microformats2 */ note 2011 post about as-* classnames, cite post about using h-as-*, considering removing h-as-* class names"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
shaners: i'm confused about that, it seems like a weird hack
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shaners
You see like a weird hack.
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tantek
voxpelli: thanks for the earlier citation, I added it to the ActivityStreams page - feel free to add more if you find more!
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voxpelli
tantek: cool! in regards to bool/flag mf2-question – is there such a one?
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shaners
@aaronpk: To me, the "name" of a thing is the combination of title and subtitle. But h-entry, etc doesn't have any concept of a subtitle.
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shaners
(Which makes sense in a paving cowpaths sense. But falls short of my needs.)
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tantek
voxpelli, I don't think there is - not sure what it would represent and what use-case it would solve.
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aaronpk
i suspect there are enough blog posts with subtitles that it wouldn't be unreasonable to add a subtitle property to h-entry?
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tantek
shaners - have you documented permalinks to posts where you use title/subtitle in human readable presentation?
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tantek
aaronpk - I would suspect not
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tantek
HTML WG concluded the opposite re: <hgroup> element for example, for grouping a title and subtitle.
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aaronpk
pretty much every Medium post has a subtitle afaik
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voxpelli
tantek: just thinking whether it would at all be possible to have something like a ".x-primary" in mf2 – a modifier of an existing mf2-property
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tantek
like any other such feature, anyone interested in it can start by documenting URLs to real world visual examples
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tantek
til then, it doens't really matter
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shaners
@tantek: Here is an example of title/subtitle
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tantek
voxpelli: modifiers of existing properties sounds like it could add complexity
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tantek
probably better to start with what is the use-case / user-flow that results in capturing some sort of notion of "primary"
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shaners
To be clear, I'm not asking to add any properties to h-entry.
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shaners
I'm only asking if it is against the micropub spec at all to send attrs that are not a part of the corresponding microformat's spec.
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voxpelli
shaners: I think the discussion branched into two separate branches ;)
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aaronpk
so far the only properties in micropub posts that are not part of the microformat post it's creating are things that cause actions to happen on the server, like syndicate-to
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shaners
It sure did.
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shaners
Are micropub servers expected to quietly ignore properties that it doesn't know about?
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voxpelli
tantek: yeah, I guess getting more of a discussion going on how to present different kinds of data could help that – will make a note to blog about the decisions I make in my endpoint and how to avoid "typifying" the presentation
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shaners
ie, if i send `name=foo : bar` and also `title=foo&subtitle=bar`, will your micropub server just ignore `title` and `subtitle`?
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aaronpk
that is what would happen if you don't do anything explicitly one way or the other, so yes
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tantek
voxpelli: that makes sense. yes a blog post exploring that would be great.
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shaners
Ok. So, I will experimentally send `as, title, subtitle` in HS's micropub payload for our own uses. And any other server that don't want to use those properties can just ignore them
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shaners
Seem reasonable?
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aaronpk
it will certainly work. you should probably also add support for accepting the "name" parameter that other micropub clients will be sending
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aaronpk
and those posts would just have a blank subtitle
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tantek
aaronpk, how does a micropub server distinguish between such "control" properties like syndicate-to and all other properties which presumably apply to the object being created?
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shaners
Totes. We prefer title/subtitle, but will fall back to name if title/sub are not present.
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aaronpk
currently the list of "control" properties is documented on the wiki, and i believe all server implementations only accept properties they know about
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tantek
aaronpk - is there any naming convention for control properties vs. others?
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aaronpk
no, although i believe the only one right now is "syndicate-to"
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tantek
I'm wondering if we should pick a prefix for control properties
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shaners
Is currently the only thing is discoverable by a client via `?q=` ?
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aaronpk
tantek: that's not a bad idea
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shaners
Has there been discussion about `?q=post-types` (or some other name) to discover what post types that server knows how to deal with?
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aaronpk
one of the other nice things about non-explicit post typing, is that if someone uses a micropub app to post a bookmark, but their server doesn't know what to do with the "bookmark" property, it would still create a plain note with the "content" property which the client could set to "bookmarked _url_"
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voxpelli
+1, would be nice if the server could inform the client that it it received unknown properties so the client can decide on alternative paths, can it?
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shaners
@aaronpk: I agree about graceful fallbacks.
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shaners
Still think it'd be useful to discover the "known" post types that a server create.
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aaronpk
just finished the "follow/unfollow? interface for Monocle
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: just finished the "follow/unfollow" interface for Monocle
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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aaronpk
and now i'm wondering if I should make it optionally post a "followed ___" post on my site when I follow someone!
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aaronpk
is anyone else making "followed" posts right now?
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tantek
what is followed?
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aaronpk
followed is a post that indicates the author has just subscribed to someone's feed
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loqi.me
created /followed (+109) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-15/line/1426451322448 and dfn added by aaronpk"
(view diff)
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shaners
@aaronpk: Quill sends a `slug` property, but h-entry has no `slug` property.
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aaronpk
living on the edge
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voxpelli
wasn't hmans doing such posts?
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shaners
I mean, I like slug and have one on my HS forms too.
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aaronpk
that might be another example of a control property
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shaners
Same deal as earlier. Just ignore if you don't know about it. NBD.
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aaronpk
since it's indicating to the server what to do with the URL
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aaronpk
but yes just ignore if you don'tk know about it
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shaners
We're considering making our slugs unique per post type and treating it as a UID
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shaners
basically mapping slug => UID. maybe.
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tantek
yikes - I think others have made that mistake before.
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tantek
e.g. WordPress
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aaronpk
that's your call, but i would never do that
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aaronpk
i use slugs like "indieweb" all the time
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tantek
slugs are human readable/editable and thus should never be depended on for permalinking / ID etc.
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tantek
nor should they have authoring restrictions like "unique per post type"
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tantek
for exactly the reason aaronpk gave
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tantek
what is a slug?
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Loqi
A slug is a unique text label that identifies a page in the URL https://indiewebcamp.com/slug
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shaners
Yeah. I'm prolly not gonna. Just brainstorming about it.
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shaners
Thanks for your feedback.
#
matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> Is there a wiki page for interop formats? for domain and name?
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matrixrelay
<@kodomulo:tyler.cat> tantek was talking about domain.com/username I think
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voxpelli
aaronpk: https://github.com/hmans/indiepants/issues/61 "When adding a new following, send a webmention"
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aaronpk
voxpelli: nice!
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shaners
PS. aaronpk thank you so much for making Quill as both a step by step building guide and a reference implementation. Next time we're in person, a burrito on me. 👍
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aaronpk
:) thanks!
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aaronpk
that was precisely the goal
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shaners
Free burritos were the goal?
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aaronpk
if i had a burrito for every time someone...
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@leonieke
Trying out various #indieweb plugins for my #wordpress blog
(twitter.com/_/status/577211113642819584)
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tantek
GWG ^^^
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GWG
Yes?
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GWG
tantek: You know them?
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GWG
Or just the WordPress comment?
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tantek
just another potential recruite for the WPOC
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GWG
tantek: I'll mention it at the next meeting
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GWG
I have to work on my recruitment.
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GWG
tantek: By the way, what is your itinerary for Cambridge?
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loqi.me
created /Cambridge (+184) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
catching up on logs
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KartikPrabhu
shaners: I have considered using name/additional-name for title/subtitle combination
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shaners
interesting
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KartikPrabhu
shaners: additional-name is not officially in h-entry but exists in h-card
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iamshane.com
edited /code-of-conduct-feedback (+140) "/* Open Discussions */"
(view diff)
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kodomulo-tyler-c
have you guys seen http://vole.cc ?
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aaronpk
i was gonna say, it looks like it uses bittorrent sync
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aaronpk
oh it *actually* literally uses bittorrent sync
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tjgillies
the sync protocol is agnostic
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tjgillies
someone was saying you can swap it out
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aaronpk
i see a lot of references to the bittorrent sync api
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tjgillies
i haven't messed with it yet, so im not positive if thats true
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aaronpk
but it looks like it's ultimately just reading files on disk
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aaronpk
and btsync gets the files there
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GWG
!tell acegiak Thinking of changing the response display
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tjgillies
i like matrix because everything is a DAG, DAGs are the future man
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tjgillies
ponders making a DAG tshirt
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KartikPrabhu
what is DAG?
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tjgillies
directed acyclic graph
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tjgillies
like git
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KartikPrabhu
I am sure I can make a DAG out of anything including the web
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KartikPrabhu
so too general
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tantek
agreed
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tjgillies
DAG usually implies the use of a merkle tree as well
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: what do you think of borrowing addtional-name from h-card for h-entry sub titles?
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tantek.com
edited /code-of-conduct-feedback (+295) "/* Open Discussions */ follow-up, do we need something without actual problem reports or other examples"
(view diff)
#
pwcc
Good morning indiewebcamp.
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kodomulo-relay
mornin
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snarfed
hey pwcc
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kodomulo-relay
although its afternoon here
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I've wondered about that kind of usage - specifically, is the "or:" really part of the additional name?
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aaronpk
it's always morning in IRC
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kodomulo-relay
aaronpk: I need to put that somewhere
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I would think so.
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pwcc
Hey snarfed.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: but it is a bit fuzzy distinction in that example
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pwcc
aaronpk or tantek are you able to label @pwcc_dev a spam account to protect against forgetfulness? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-15/line/1426418042146
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tantek
pwcc - you could make it a private account
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KartikPrabhu
tjgillies: since your post/DB issues are not fixed yet for http://tyler.cat/2015/how-long-is-the-walk-to-work my answer is 10-15 minutes
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aaronpk
+1 for making it a private account. that's what I've done iwth mine
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tantek
what is a Twitter test account?
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pwcc
tantek, aaronpk - yah, I might go back to sleep now :)
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GWG
pwcc: Sleep? What time is it?
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tjgillies
KartikPrabhu: ah, ok thanks :)
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pwcc
GWG 9:51am - I was coding all weekend so not yet thinking.
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GWG
I was trying to tune in the airport on a Raspberry Pi for some reason all weekend.
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GWG
Then I added a Publication field to Post Kinds.
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GWG
And started working on Location.
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GWG
I also need to fix date, but now I'm thinking of revisiting formatting of existing elements
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GWG
I'm trying to figure out an interesting Indieweb type thing to do with Air Traffic Control
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pwcc
KevinMarks___ you here?
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pwcc
!tell KevinMarks___ yeah, pull request for noterlive is on github. I have a few ideas but issues are no good without code :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tjgillies
I have the inverse problem
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tjgillies
code with no idea
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@Freerange_Inc
@nick_appleyard as amusing as that would be, sadly not http://p2pvalue.eu/2nd-floss4p2p-workshop I'm thinking of it as #indieweb meets #p2p ...
(twitter.com/_/status/577248079927226369)
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tjgillies
What is co-creation?
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tjgillies
I hear it used a lot
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shaners
@tjgillies Does "code with no idea" mean you're looking for a project?
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pwcc
tjgillies lol
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KartikPrabhu
shaners: unfortunately the @ before a nick does not ping them on IRC. Also links to twitter profile (which might be someone else) in IRC logs. just fyi :)
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KartikPrabhu
tjgillies: code first ideas will follow
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shaners
oh right. this is irc.
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KartikPrabhu
how has twitter spoilt us!
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KartikPrabhu
tjgillies: most of my indieweb ideas came because I already coded a website.
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kodomulo-relay
lol
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kodomulo-relay
nice
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kodomulo-relay
kodomulo == tjgillies
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kodomulo-relay
shaners: I'm looking for projects if people are offering them, and attaching teh monies ;)
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shaners
kodomulo-relay: what's your github?
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kodomulo-relay
github.com/tjgillies
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@ColleenDoran
Hey @neilhimself can you signal boost? I just got banned from @facebook for this 1925 Zeigfeld Girl pic. Ridiculous! https://twitter.com/ColleenDoran/status/577242020990705665/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/577242020990705665)