#indiewebcamp 2015-03-31

2015-03-31 UTC
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JonathanNeal I thought fragmentions had settled on one #.
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks proposed it but I don't know if people have switched to using it as such
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KartikPrabhu what is fragmention
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Loqi A fragmention is an experimental extension to a URL to link and cite individual words or phrases of a document using double-hash anchors (##) https://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention
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JonathanNeal It’s the idea I first heard from KevinMarks. Human readable links to individual fragments of text.
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JonathanNeal Am I getting the name wrong?
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kylewm this betterlink thing seems to misunderstand the point of fragmentions
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KartikPrabhu no not really. Fragmention originally has double # convention. KevinMarks then added the idea to use only one # anyway since ids don't contain spaces anyway
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kylewm I'm impressed they bought a .io domain and everything for it though
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KevinMarks betterlink replaces fragmentions with a silo o_O
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks and obscure URLs
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kylewm KevinMarks: oh for real?? it saves the fragmention location in a central place?
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KevinMarks there is sn argument for highlighting the exact text linked to
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks yes, but that is more of fragmention.js implementation (seems hard) rather than fragmention the proposal
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JonathanNeal Holy cow, does betterlink really charge you?
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JonathanNeal http://www.betterlink.io/webmaster-customize.html
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JonathanNeal $0.44 per visit? That’s … cool. I’m stickin’ with fragmentions.
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kylewm WHOA
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rascul that gets a big eww from me
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rascul oh, and it's just for chrome
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rascul after more looking, doesn't seem like a worthwhile alternative to fragmentions at all
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JonathanNeal Concern: Fragmentions are not a valid URL due to ##. Solution: Drop the second #. Concern: Fragmentions target the element and not the selection itself. Solution: Why not allow for both? html[data-fragmention-selects="*"] or html[data-fragmention-elements="p h1 h2 h3 h4 h5 h6"] html[data-fragmention-selects=":text”]. Concern: Not All Browsers Play The
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JonathanNeal Same. Solution: None, if irregularly spaced will not appear as you expect in old IE≤8 anyway.
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JonathanNeal s/if/
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Loqi JonathanNeal meant to say: Same. Solution: None,  irregularly spaced will not appear as you expect in old IE≤8 anyway.
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rascul problem with # vs ## is potential confusion with # anchors
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rascul but if both were allowed, i don't see the issue
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rascul uses fragmentions and has pointed several non indieweb people towards it, also
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JonathanNeal rascul: fragmentions has long supported both, since KevinMark’s suggestion.
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rascul yeah i know :)
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JonathanNeal I think allowing for element granularity on selections would be a nice improvement.
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rascul good work on the fragmentions also, JonathanNeal
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rascul it's you who made the js piece isn't it?
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rascul what do you mean by element granularity?
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JonathanNeal So that there could be some way to say “select the nearest ancestor” versus “select the nearest paragraph ancestor” versus “select only the text”. This could help marginalia as well, since the styles often target particular sections or paragraphs of content already.
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rascul ahh yeah
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rascul how could that be implemented, though?
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JonathanNeal rascul: with data attributes.
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rascul could you give a possible example?
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rascul specifically, what could the url look like?
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JonathanNeal [data-fragmention=":text”] versus html[data-fragmention=“h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p”]
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JonathanNeal rascul: oh, I was saying the fragmention granularity could be defined by the page author.
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rascul ahh, i guess maybe i'm not quite understanding how it could be implemented
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rascul some of this stuff is over my head and i'm happy it just works ;)
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JonathanNeal <html data-fragmention=“h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, p”> … forces fragmentions to target the nearest h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6, or p element that contains #some-text
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rascul so it can be defined in the html where to target?
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tantek reads scrollback
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JonathanNeal Yes.
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rascul hrm
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tantek JonathanNeal: now now you know better than to try to use data-* attributes as an API of sorts
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tantek when that's expressly forbidden (or strongly discouraged?) by the spec
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rascul i don't know that i can be bothered to define that all the time
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tantek more here on that: http://microformats.org/wiki/html5#data_attributes
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rascul and when i do define it, what if that's not what the fragmention is supposed to target?
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tantek wow is https://bigboringsystem.com/post/post!1421164266-5a another example confusion between Aral / ind.ie and IndieWeb?
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JonathanNeal I’m open to other suggestions. The goal is to control what text or element gets selected. Is it just the text (ala CTRL+F). Is it the nearest element (ala classic fragmentions), Is it the nearest section or paragraph (ala marginalia)?
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rascul i don't have any suggestions, i'm mostly trying to understand and maybe help you figure it out :)
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rascul at least i don't have any at this time
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rascul i still prefer fragmentations to fragmentions though!
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tantek JonathanNeal: perhaps add that as a new subsection to http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmentions#Challenges
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tantek rascul: fragmentations already have a meaning in CSS
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rascul oh do that? hrm
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tantek here you go: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-break/
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rascul i just can't help but think of fragmentation grenades whenever i see fragmentions
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rascul probably because army
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rascul hrm maybe i'll finally update my ssl cert tonight heh
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rascul doesn't look like i can hold out for letsencrypt.org without people complaining to me daily :(
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kylewm tantek: I honestly don't think that is confusion, bupkes has been around here fairly recently
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tantek even if bupkes isn't confused, that post reads like it is conflating it all
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tantek thus it promotes (even if unintentionally) that confusion
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tantek.com edited /ind.ie (+181) "/* ind.ie is not IndieWeb / IndieWebCamp */ fix heading to not require URL escaped chars, add subsection Examples of confusion and conflation" (view diff)
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kylewm huh, https://aralbalkan.com/notes/2014-the-rise-of-indie-tech/
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kylewm see first pic
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tantek kylewm: indeed that was back when he thought he could hijack indieweb by rebranding it as indie tech
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tantek and then no one moved over
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kylewm also an interesting section on why he doesn't believe in developing iOS apps anymore
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tantek kylewm: also from that blog post, the heading "2014: The Year of Indie Tech"
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kylewm s/interesting/ironic
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: also an ironic section on why he doesn't believe in developing iOS apps anymore
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tantek what exactly "Indie Tech" happened in 2014 beyond IndieWeb? Anything?
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tantek anything shipped? anything running on anyone's servers?
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rascul known happened in 2014?
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tantek rascul - right, from this community
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tantek that's my point
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rascul oh i see
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tantek what exactly "Indie Tech" happened in 2014 **beyond IndieWeb**? Anything?
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tantek so basically, "Indie Tech" was a vaporware hype term that was meaningless in 2014
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rascul does it mean anything in 2015?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: not very mobile friendly with that header
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I got a follow up question as well
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: go for it. need something productive to focus on :)
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tantek.com edited /ind.ie (+83) "criticism section with bbs citation" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, tantek, i meant from Halley
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry
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ben_thatmustbeme nothin productive right now
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: feel free to add it to the page!
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tantek What is Big Boring System?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Big Boring System" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Big+Boring+System&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-30%2Fline%2F1427767801381
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tantek Big Boring System is a text-only social network silo ( https://bigboringsystem.com/ ) that runs on open source ( https://github.com/bigboringsystem/bigboringsystem ) and uses phone numbers for both sign-up and sign-in.
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loqi.me created /Big_Boring_System (+245) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-30/line/1427767801381 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek.com edited /Big_Boring_System (+534) "articles, see also" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek: think an inquiry about mf2 on bbs (and maybe later webmentions) would be welcome/appropriate?
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kylewm it's possible that "federation" is totally antithetical to that site's purpsoe
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tantek hence why it's better to start with mf2 on there (so reply-contexts show their data well)
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tantek and if you get positive reception to that
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tantek then when we have examples of replies with reply-contexts of bbs, then we can say - hey - do you want these comments in real time? webmention can do that.
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tantek they may be more open to supporting this tech because it takes weight off their shoulders to support more signups
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tantek note their home page
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tantek "NEW SIGNUPS ARE CURRENTLY DISABLED."
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tantek no problem - tell people to use their own website for now and send webmentions to comment on stuff ;)
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tantek the "recent posts" stream is fascinating: https://bigboringsystem.com/discover
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kylewm this is interesting. "Monetization" issue started by isaacs https://github.com/bigboringsystem/bigboringsystem/issues/84
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kylewm it's also kind of overly humble that the bottom says "powered by digital ocean and twilio"
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tantek it felt very calming to read the recent posts stream
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tantek with the absence of so much as any UI widgetry
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tantek !tell caseorganic "Big Boring System" seems like a good example of deliberately calm technology, e.g. check out their "recent posts" stream: https://bigboringsystem.com/discover
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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KartikPrabhu does nayone know if MuSQL is slow with large DBs? My server is having queries last more than a minute and so are getting shut down
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tantek What is MuSQL?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "MuSQL" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=MuSQL&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-30%2Fline%2F1427769681546
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kylewm muSQL, there's your problem right there
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KartikPrabhu errr MySQL
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KartikPrabhu :P
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tantek MultiUser SQL?!? Whatever will they think of next! ;)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: how large are we talking
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kylewm like your website, or like some crazy physics data?
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: How "big"? I doubt your database is actually reaching a size that it would acuse problems, but indexing of columns (or lack of) can cause slow queries
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gRegor` s/acuse/cause/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: KartikPrabhu: How "big"? I doubt your database is actually reaching a size that it would cause problems, but indexing of columns (or lack of) can cause slow queries
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KartikPrabhu 238 notes
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gRegor` Teeny tiny :)
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KartikPrabhu hmmm then maybe 512MB of memory is not enough to run 2 websites
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gRegor` Just the one table in the query, or a join?
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KartikPrabhu just one, queried by date year
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KartikPrabhu so iguess a lot of TZ conversion is happening
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tantek backs away from the channel, slowly.
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KartikPrabhu :)
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gRegor` Column data type is 'year' or a string?
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: it is ummm datetime
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gRegor` tantek backed too far :/
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KartikPrabhu i think it might be due to running 2 dynamic websites on 512MB, both with DB stuff
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gRegor` You could try a non-unique index on it, but yeah, ~200 isn't a lot of columns that I would normally expect to give that much delay.
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gRegor` s/columns/rows/
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: You could try a non-unique index on it, but yeah, ~200 isn't a lot of rows that I would normally expect to give that much delay.
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KartikPrabhu hmmm k will look more
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gRegor` Maybe check the memory usage of mysqld and apached (nginx, or whatever server is running)
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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gRegor` Is 1m the latency you're getting executing the query direct on the server, or time to deliver the page fully in browser?
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KartikPrabhu on the server. the hosters sent email that they had to shut it down
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gRegor` Huh. Interesting.
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KartikPrabhu but because of that my website 500s or takes about 7s to load
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gRegor` :/
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kylewm issue filed https://github.com/bigboringsystem/bigboringsystem/issues/230
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kylewm.com edited /Big_Boring_System (+203) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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gRegor` Music Structured Query Language: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-540-69429-8_22
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kylewm.com edited /Big_Boring_System (-1) "/* Possible IndieWeb Compatibility */ fix wikilink" (view diff)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I have my site with probably like 10k entries and woodwind running on a 512mb server
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kylewm so you should be fine
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KartikPrabhu weird
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu. Try your query with "describe" at the start of it. Will tell you what indexes it's using
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ben_thatmustbeme If you are running mysql interface is and not just code
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ben_thatmustbeme Also. What is the query?
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tantek this is an interesting thread: https://twitter.com/adactio/status/582577149892161536
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@adactio @aral @jbrewer https://withknown.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/582577149892161536)
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tantek reading from the start gives a distinctly different experience: https://twitter.com/jbrewer/status/582559550097600512
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@jbrewer 1) I miss the diverse experience of reading content on personal sites. Dif­fer­ent texts de­serve dis­tinct ty­pog­ra­phy/presentation. (twitter.com/_/status/582559550097600512)
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tantek I think I found these via https://twitter.com/adactio/status/582571583887130624
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@adactio @jbrewer I think you will like what the Indie Web Camp people are doing: https://indiewebcamp.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/582571583887130624)
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kylewm did we decide that adactio's "link" posts were essentially bookmarks?
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kylewm e.g. https://adactio.com/links/8633
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kylewm tantek: interesting contrarian point https://twitter.com/_Jordan/status/582565704773308416
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@_Jordan @jbrewer I’ve never had a Web site. Never written a line of HTML or CSS. Never plan to and future generations shouldn’t have to to be heard. (twitter.com/_/status/582565704773308416)
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tantek it is a good counterpoint to remember, that there are numerous (majority of?) people who previously had no voice on the web, but with Twitter etc. silos they have *some* voice
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tantek some being better than none in this case
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tantek but that's not because they didn't want their own website, it's because the silos improved UX to bring such expression to more people
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tantek it's a good goal for hosted solutions like withknown.com
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tantek also: https://twitter.com/_erica/status/582571794818732032
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@_erica @jbrewer @_Jordan I still maintain my personal website, I'm trying to write more for it, too. (twitter.com/_/status/582571794818732032)
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kylewm !tell snarfed wow, the polling queue for bridgy says it has almost a thousand tasks in it; is that normal?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske aaronpk, when a pubsubhubbub verification call times out, do you retry again in switchboard?
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cweiske if not, do you send out a "denied" mode to the callback?
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aaronpk No but that's a good idea, feel free to file an issue
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aaronpk Right now switchboard is pretty bare bones but I want to add things like that to make it better
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cweiske the denied status update is not standardized
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cweiske and my spec issue has not been answered yet
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cweiske i'm currently adding re-pinging to phubb for the case that the subscriber was not available when an update came in
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@kevinmarks “The fundamental divide online… is between major institutions and individuals.” - @adrianshort https://adrianshort.org/martha-lane-fox-dimbleby-lecture/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/582834877294256128)
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KevinMarks_ http://research.google.com/bigpicture/music/#ALTERNATIVE_INDIE%2CINDIE
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KevinMarks_ Indie so big it's mainstream (in music)
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Loqi [mention] Ashton McAllan commented 'Hey there, sorry for annoying you. I am a real person just reblogging things I like. I thought your post was cool, that’s why I reblogged it...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (http://acegiak.net/2015/03/31/lee-lin-chin-for-pm-2/)
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning all
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snarfed kylewm: lol, yup, those are evergreen tasks. one per active account
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Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message 7 hours, 14 minutes ago: wow, the polling queue for bridgy says it has almost a thousand tasks in it; is that normal? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-30/line/1427785048325
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kylewm Oooh :-)
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kylewm snarfed: I signed up a new instagram account last night and it took longer than I expected tho do the first poll
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snarfed kylewm: unfortunate
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snarfed let's see
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snarfed yeah it's evidently running 25m behind: https://appengine.google.com/queuedetails?&app_id=s~brid-gy&version_id=3.383236630846410047&queue_name=poll&start_eta=0
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snarfed there's an issue for this…finding…
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/355
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ben_thatmustbeme getting hung up on how to store tags vs categories
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ben_thatmustbeme vs interactions
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kylewm snarfed: if it's > 10 minutes behind and adds a new polling task every 10 minutes, wouldn't it spiral out of control quickly?
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snarfed heh, if it did, yes. it only adds the next task *in* the poll, though
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kylewm oh duh, i knew that :p
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: you have both tags and categories in Postly?
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ben_thatmustbeme i had only categories, but I have started adding tags
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ben_thatmustbeme They should probably merge, but I also was adding that to interactions
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ben_thatmustbeme actually, i'm not even sure they should merge.
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ben_thatmustbeme If I have something tagged "Indieweb" on my site, I make it a u-category with a link to the search for all posts that have that category
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ben_thatmustbeme categories are actually enumerated
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ben_thatmustbeme I'm not sure that having the ability to search for all things on my site tagged with tantek.com is something i really want
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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zachdonovan good morning!
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Loqi zachdonovan: kylewm left you a message 1 day, 11 hours ago: thanks that's helpful feedback. you do still need to run qworker.py either way -- I'll clarify in the instructions http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-29/line/1427684712801
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zachdonovan thanks, Loqi!
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Loqi grins profusely
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tantek cweiske++ for all the work on pushing the edges of pubsubhubbub spec and finding the holes that are only found by implementing.
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Loqi cweiske has 20 karma
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tantek zachdonovan: go ahead and add yourself to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people so you show up with an image and hyperlinked name in the logs! e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-31#t1427813514962
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cweiske thanks
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: what do you mean by "categories are actually enumerated" ?
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ben_thatmustbeme i have an ID for any category. I treat it like an object, so it can change system wide. I know, i know, plumbing
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tantek is that a cache? optimization? or do you depend on it in storage?
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tantek genuinely curious - I don't have an approach figured out for implementing tags/categories yet myself. Was going to start with "dumb" text search backwards in time to implement the "common" use case of clicking on a hashtag and seeing most recent results for it.
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zachdonovan tantek: ok! I will do that thing
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, more of an optimization. Searching integers is must faster than string matching
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ben_thatmustbeme I think I might just say the hell with it an allow for searches of say "all things tagged with tantek.com" on my site
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ben_thatmustbeme The messier part right now is that i store webmentions, which create interactions which have a type (tag, mention, reply, like, etc)
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ben_thatmustbeme but then interaction with type tag would have to have all duplicate information to the tag/category type
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ben_thatmustbeme i dislike duplicate information
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ben_thatmustbeme s/dislike/loathe
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: i loathe duplicate information
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ben_thatmustbeme actually... interesting... can you tag multiple things in one post?
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't see why not right. (i mean as someone else tagging a post on my site)
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ben_thatmustbeme "tag" gets a bit ambiguous
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ben_thatmustbeme multiple "suggested tags" ?
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tantek you can have multiple tags (p-category or u-category), and you *could* have multiple "u-tag-of" but that really should be reserved for POSSE copies
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ben_thatmustbeme I think i'm just going to have to deal with multiple copies of some data
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ben_thatmustbeme which honestly makes more sense, as its stored before and after approval (though I automatically approve them for now)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I think that can be ok (some multiple copies) as long as you have a well defined algorithm for merging/de-duping them
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ben_thatmustbeme my third normal form wired brain is saddened by this :P
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tantek Also important to document each *source* of such copies / duplicates, so that you can potentially fix it at the source(s) in the future.
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ben_thatmustbeme ack, so gets even more complex with coords / shape
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ben_thatmustbeme thats not a property of a tag/category, but rather a tag/category as it relates to a post
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tantek do we need to make area tags into their own objects?
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tantek again, we should start with the display of area tags in a post, then what it is the ideal/sensible markup for it from the perspective of supporting that presentation, and *then* figure it how we can microformat it up.
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ben_thatmustbeme well this is about logical organization, the markup can change, but the concept that a person will be tagged in different locations within posts means that whatever that location is, cannot be stored with the person (assuming you extract out the tagged person as a category)
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm not going to going to not focus on coords/shape so much, and just try to get things set up to do person tagging correctly first
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ben_thatmustbeme i keep getting side tracked by other optimizations in my code
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ben_thatmustbeme dropping extra tables, unifying duplicate code, etc
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jonrichter.de edited /2015/Germany (+1) "/* Organizers */ typo in aaronparecki.com - missing double-a" (view diff)
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GWG Good afternoon
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GWG Zachdonovan: Any news
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zachdonovan GWG: ahhhhh!
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zachdonovan it's been a crazy week
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zachdonovan what was I going to look into?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "I going to look into" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=I+going+to+look+into&summary=prompted+by+zachdonovan+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-31%2Fline%2F1427824262347
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zachdonovan I'll run down and ask the community manager about hosting a HWC
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zachdonovan right... now!
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GWG Zachdonovan, thank you. I would love to have one
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GWG Then recruitment can happen
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zachdonovan GWG" we
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zachdonovan whoops
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zachdonovan GWG: we're good to go!
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zachdonovan all we need is to pick a date and a time for our first event :)
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kylewm.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "update next-hwc pointer" (view diff)
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kylewm zachdonovan++
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Loqi zachdonovan has 3 karma
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kylewm what is next-hwc?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc
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zachdonovan awesome, thanks kylewm!
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zachdonovan GWG: should we go for 4/8?
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GWG zachdonovan: I'm out of town on Wednesday. How about coinciding with 04—22
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GWG The next next HWC
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zachdonovan GWG: works for me
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GWG That gives us time to try to recruit. Can you post venue details?
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zachdonovan yep, will do
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GWG Also gives time to figure out timing versus the PST people
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tantek ooh good reminder kylewm
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tantek goes to get a venue for 2015-04-08
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GWG Need to figure out how to do thst event invite bombing I see for other HWC events
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tantek GWG, don't
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tantek make it personal
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tantek that's the key
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tantek don't spam
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GWG Tantek, if you or anyone else have any suggestions for people to be personal with that I don't know personally..
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GWG Cold calling has always been a weakness of mine
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GWG I'm more the referral type
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tantek cold calling does not work well for growing a community
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tantek you need to reach out to personal connections
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tantek GWG, you met plenty of people during IWC NYC - twice
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tantek you should feel free to reach out to all pas attendees - as they'll remember you from in-person interaction
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KevinMarks did someone here have a nice "x minutes/hours/days ago" algorithm for python?
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rascul KevinMarks i've used this in the past https://pypi.python.org/pypi/humanize
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tantek what is a relative date?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "relative date" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=relative+date&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-31%2Fline%2F1427826003714
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tantek what is a relative time?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "relative time" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=relative+time&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-31%2Fline%2F1427826012437
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tantek I know aaronpk posted about it
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GWG Tantek, inviting you is cheating right?
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zachdonovan.net edited /IRC_People (+117) "/* Nicknames */ add self to irc users list" (view diff)
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kylewm KevinMarks: you're also welcome to copy https://github.com/kylewm/woodwind/blob/master/woodwind/views.py#L378
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tantek GWG - of course not :)
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tantek GWG, I'm serious, go back to past Guest Lists and add people
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tantek heck, add people from IWC Cambridge since that's not *that* far
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GWG Tantek, I was more commenting on the fact that you appear at more IWC events than anyone else, it seems
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GWG I intend to make the updates when I can. Likely tonight.
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GWG Im just on a work break now.
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zachdonovan.net edited /events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (+484) "/* Where */ add provisional info for NYC Inaugural HWC" (view diff)
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GWG I wonder if Loqi could be taught to answer the question, where in the world is tantek?
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Loqi is done
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zachdonovan added some deets!
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zachdonovan https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club#Where
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zachdonovan if someone would give that a look and reassure me that I haven't done anything fantastically wrong-headed, I'd be much obliged :)
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zachdonovan I just copy-pasted the commented out Chicago example and update all of the fields.
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GWG Will look after work
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zachdonovan GWG: thanks!
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kylewm so links on https://adactio.com/links are marked up in a strange way. there is no mf2 property for the target of the actual link
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kylewm which means they look less good than they should in Woodwind
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kylewm but I'm not sure what to suggest
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kylewm aaronpk uses "p-bookmark h-cite", shaners sets the u-url of the post to the bookmarked thing, I have used "u-bookmark-of h-cite" up to now
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tantek kylewm: looks like mozsf big room is booked for the 8th. what do you think of doing The Creamery for that date for HWC SF?
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tantek what is a bookmark?
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kylewm tantek: that would be fine with me, i can create an event this afternoon/evening
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Loqi A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is primarily comprised of a URL, often title text from that URL, sometimes optional text describing, tagging, or quoting from its contents https://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark
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tantek kylewm: thanks!
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kylewm so two people using "p-bookmark" in the wild
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kylewm aaronpk and ben_thatmustbeme
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kylewm (they probably both want to change to u-bookmark)
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ben_thatmustbeme doh, am i?
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tantek or u-bookmark-of
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kylewm u-bookmark-of++
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ben_thatmustbeme don't even really even use bookmarks, was adding those to see that I could
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Loqi u-bookmark-of has 1 karma
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tantek oops https://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark has no sample markup!
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tantek kylewm: that's probably WHY adactio has no mf2 property for the target of the actual link
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tantek :/
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kylewm indeed
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tantek.com edited /bookmark (+349) "stub a why and how" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: go for it: https://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark#How_to_markup
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tantek (as in expand based on what you'd expect with u-bookmark-of - and hopefully what you publish with redwind!)
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kylewm.com edited /bookmark (+655) "/* How to markup */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks ben_thatmustbeme: re tags vs categories, this is a greta discussion: http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2006/02/11/tags-and-categories-are-not-the-same/
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KevinMarks tantek, are you saying my <a class="h-card p-category" href="http://tantek.com/">Tantek Çelik</a> is now wrong
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tantek KevinMarks: I'm saying you should update that to u-category h-card :)
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KevinMarks (from http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-03-25.html )
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tantek and it's not just me
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KevinMarks I only put in what you said...
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tantek I think this all started from kylewm raising the issue about how u- vs p- properties with objects worked and the "value" field
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tantek KevinMarks: iteration
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KevinMarks http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kevinmarks.com%2Fhwc2015-03-25.html gives
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tantek it's natural
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KevinMarks "properties": { "category": [ { "type": [ "h-card" ], "properties": { "name": [ "Tantek \u00c7elik" ], "url": [ "http:\/\/tantek.com\/" ] }, "value": "Tantek \u00c7elik" },
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tantek ^^^ not helpful display
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KevinMarks yeah, sorry, pretty printing not irc frendly
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KevinMarks click the link
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KevinMarks if I change it to u- what is different
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Loqi The indieweb is different from previous efforts like blogging, federation, decentralization, etc https://indiewebcamp.com/different
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KevinMarks hah
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KevinMarks I changed it (just on yours at the top) and pin13 parses it the same
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tantek because phpmf2 has not yet implemented: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Nested_h-.2A_objects.27_.22value.22_property
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-04-08-homebrew-website-club (-194) "SF at The Creamery next week" (view diff)
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KevinMarks so it would make the value the url?
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tantek correct
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tantek which represents the object
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tantek which is what you are tagging with, the entire object, not just a text string
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KevinMarks not necessarily in this case as many of the URLs are derived from twitter
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KevinMarks for HWC that (mostly) works
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KevinMarks but for eg http://www.kevinmarks.com/futureofmoney12-2014.html
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KevinMarks both joyce kim and Jed McCaleb have stellar.org as their URL
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KevinMarks so that would break with the visible clarity fo the layout
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tantek if someone's URL does not have an h-card for them at it, then you have to create a proxy h-card on your own site for person-tags of them
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tantek that too was discussed either yesterday or the day before
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KevinMarks <a class="h-card p-category" href="http://stellar.org">Jed McCaleb</a>
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KevinMarks <a class="h-card p-category" href="http://stellar.org">joyce kim</a>
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tantek so that's your markup error then for associating the URL with their name
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KevinMarks so I'm supposed to make a 'joyce kim' page on my site?
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tantek perhaps only do such associations where there is a rel-me bidirectional?
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tantek yes - a proxy h-card, as you might for a /nicknames-cache
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KevinMarks I have a static site...
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KevinMarks I'm PESOSing in these hcards from twitter
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KevinMarks shoudl I put their twitter URLs in too?
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tantek your proxy h-card should contain whatever information you have about them
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KevinMarks I can see it making sense to have a list of speakers at the top with more fleshed out hcards, like a panel page
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KevinMarks but I'm not making a page on my site per speaker
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KevinMarks 'cos static
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tantek you could use anyone's nickname cache ;)
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tantek e.g.
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tantek what is Joyce Kim?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Joyce Kim" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Joyce+Kim&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-31%2Fline%2F1427830977322
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KevinMarks I could use Twitter
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tantek ^^^ go for it KevinMarks, add an h-card ;)
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KevinMarks joyce kim is <a class="h-card " href="http://stellar.org">joyce kim</a>
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loqi.me created /joyce_kim (+98) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-31/line/1427830977322 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek hey you're propagating that URL error
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tantek fix it to use her twitter instead
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tantek stellar is her org right?
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KevinMarks twitter.com/joyce
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KevinMarks so, in your theoretical world, I shoudl pull in her whole twitter bio and photo and cache it on my site as she links to a non-h-card URL from it?
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tantek.com edited /joyce_kim (+120) "fix h-card, add role, org" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /joyce_kim to /Joyce_Kim
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tantek if someone has a bad h-card or lacks one, you have to make one yourself to reference
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tantek not theoretical
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tantek actual problem avoidance
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KevinMarks the inline h-card is OK
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tantek since silo profile URLs are so fragile, we should not use them for person-tagging
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tantek especially twitter URLs since they can change as we discussed at last week's HWC
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tantek though I suppose you could use the "intent" URLs we discussed
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tantek if your code is automatically getting her site URL from Twitter, it could also get her userid and turn that into an intent URL instead
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tantek which at least wouldn't break if she changed her usename
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tantek s/usename/username
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Loqi tantek meant to say: which at least wouldn't break if she changed her username
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KevinMarks patches welcome https://github.com/kevinmarks/noterlive/blob/master/web.js#L129
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KevinMarks https://github.com/kevinmarks/noterlive/blob/master/web/index.html#L152
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kylewm KevinMarks: what about using https://www.stellar.org/about/#Joyce_Kim
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KevinMarks you're missing the origin of these posts
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KevinMarks I am live-transcribing a conf session. I can usually geta twitter handel for people 'cos they list them
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KevinMarks I don't usually have time to create a whoel hcard for them by googling them
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tantek KevinMarks: hence I suggested the intent profile URL as discussed last week at HWC since that has an hCard!
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KevinMarks even if I did, the presumption that their hcard would be a standalone page on my site does not fit this usecase
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KevinMarks that does make sense, but would work lass well for the HWC case
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KevinMarks s/lass/less/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: that does make sense, but would work less well for the HWC case
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KartikPrabhu GWG: wordpress plugin post you might find useful: https://css-tricks.com/wordpress-functionality-plugins/
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: is your MySQL still having problems after restart?
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KartikPrabhu haven't looked into it yet. also should figure out how to restart the MySQL thingie
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kylewm oh I thought you said your provider shut it down
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KartikPrabhu they kill that particular DB request. not the whole MySQL engine thing
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KartikPrabhu they're nice that way :)
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kylewm oh :)
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ben_thatmustbeme well, lots to read through today
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ben_thatmustbeme oy
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, tantek, with the change over from p-bookmark to u-bookmark and p-category to u-category, I should assume that any class on an <a> tag should be u- not p- correct?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: it depends
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tantek also u-bookmark-of *
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ben_thatmustbeme realized he has author links a <a class="p-name u-url"
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: since you asked this is the offending query SELECT DISTINCT CAST(DATE_FORMAT(CONVERT_TZ(`bundle_note`.`pub_date`, 'UTC', 'America/Chicago'), '%Y-%m-01 00:00:00') AS DATETIME) FROM `bundle_note` WHERE `bundle_note`.`pub_date` <= '2015-03-31 01:44:30' ORDER BY 1 DESC LIMIT 1
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ben_thatmustbeme oh crap... goes back to templates :P
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KartikPrabhu basically building my notes page
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme:
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tantek it's only for cases where you have an embedded object
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tantek p-name u-url is not a nested object
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll bet the timezone conversion is what is slowing you down
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ben_thatmustbeme oh Distinct?
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ben_thatmustbeme i would say its definitely that
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ben_thatmustbeme what are you trying to do?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you trying to do" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+trying+to+do&summary=prompted+by+ben_thatmustbeme+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-31%2Fline%2F1427834172283
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: yeah TZ maybe it and also I am not controlling the query my framework thingie is. I don't speak SQL
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KartikPrabhu basically, getting a list of all notes from a month to display here https://kartikprabhu.com/notes
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ben_thatmustbeme what framework?
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KartikPrabhu Django
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ben_thatmustbeme the way that query is written it has to store all the output of the query temporarily, then update them to the local TZ, THEN find only unique values within that
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KartikPrabhu hmmm that seems the right order to get the TZ conversion right
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KartikPrabhu <sigh> I am contemplating pre-rendering a version of that page and updating it on change
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ben_thatmustbeme hasn't used django in some time, could you update TZ after you get the output
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KartikPrabhu not without hardcoding MySQL queries into Django
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ben_thatmustbeme what is the django command you are using?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "django command you are using" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=django+command+you+are+using&summary=prompted+by+ben_thatmustbeme+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-03-31%2Fline%2F1427834472166
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ben_thatmustbeme wonders if there is some easier way to do that
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: it is the buit in get_queryset command
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ben_thatmustbeme ew, I see, its doing that to create the query to get all the posts
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ben_thatmustbeme but doing it horribly inefficiently
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ben_thatmustbeme could you convert it to a Model.objects.all with some ordering
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kylewm still, it's only 300 posts; i can't imagine anything would take > a minute
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ben_thatmustbeme make sure mysql is indexing on timestamp
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ben_thatmustbeme mgiht help
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ben_thatmustbeme might*
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ben_thatmustbeme err pub_date to put it in your schema
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: thanks. will look into those
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: good luck
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KartikPrabhu these are the sort of pain points that need to be eliminated if we want people to ditch silos
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ben_thatmustbeme well, silos had to deal with these same issues, these are the issues that software developers have to deal with
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KartikPrabhu Known goes a long way, but more such easy to use indieweb solutions are needed
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tantek this is where I call into question database/queries in terms of scaling again
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: yes, devs not usual people
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I am with you on the DB issue :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I'm *displaying* 127 posts on my home page in < 1s (nevermind the "query" to retrieve them from "storage")
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KartikPrabhu but until I make my file storage thingie, i have to deal with it
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ben_thatmustbeme DBs vs flat files are basically tradeoff of speed vs adaptability
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: and ease of use
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ben_thatmustbeme its much easier to change a query than to change a parsing method
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I don't buy the adaptability argument, from all the hand-wringing over changing schemas I keep hearing about
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: ease of use in what way?
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: like I have to learn MySQL to make it efficient, but I can change my python code much more easily
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek: I would be doing the same if I were doing it with flat files. What folder do i store non-objects? how do I store webmentions? etc
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KartikPrabhu SQL is a black box to me
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that's not any easier with a DB. s/folder/table :P
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu, I find MySQL is worse for that, postgreSQL is much nicer and actually follows correct theoritical SQL
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ben_thatmustbeme took a class in DB design back at school.... then TA'd it
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: again, I didn't know theoretical SQL when I started this
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, I know, i'm saying those parts are the same
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tantek right, storage modeling is hard.
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ben_thatmustbeme exact same trouble. but select * from WHERE .... and if your model is correct, changing one line of a where clause can get you any method of slicing you want, which will be faster than parsing flat files to find what you want
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ben_thatmustbeme remember Databases started as flat files with just some indexing
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ben_thatmustbeme most now just contain all that in a single format to keep external changes to files from breaking indexes
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ben_thatmustbeme you can build an index if you want in flat files, but it will be really messy and inefficient
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tantek the difference is that at least in this iteration of flat files, we're using an open format in the flat files
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tantek which makes the actual storage files more portable
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ben_thatmustbeme you still lose indexing
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ben_thatmustbeme its a trade off
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tantek rather than DB files which are bound to a specific DB, and even versions thereof
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tantek either way you need to do indexing separately!
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tantek from the get/put storage
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tantek also - indexing = premature optimization :P
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tantek haven't needed any indexing yet, haven't wasted time coding it yet
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ben_thatmustbeme overindexing = premature optimization
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ben_thatmustbeme i ahve seen that done WAY too much
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tantek where over = >0 in my case
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, how do you get only your posts that are notes?
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ben_thatmustbeme or better yet, how do you get only your posts that are articles (your recent articles links) ?
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gRegor` What is Falcon
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Loqi Falcon is a personal publishing (tweeting, blogging, realtime syndicating) web application. There is an instance of Falcon running at tantek.com and serving/syndicating notes, articles, and occasionally other types of posts https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon
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gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Storage_format
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KartikPrabhu ok removed an unecessary filtering step, lets see if I get another email. now to stare at math
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kylewm well this is interesting Heroku rumors/news http://notes.ericjiang.com/posts/881
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kylewm Free tier will be limited to 12 hours/day, they are introducing a new Hobby tier for $7 a month
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kylewm Free tier won't allow custom domains anymore
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kylewm could be kind of a bummer for stuff like https://webmention.herokuapp.com/
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KartikPrabhu on quitting Facebook: https://the-pastry-box-project.net/antonio-savorelli/2015-march-31
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gRegor` kylewm: That probably explains why a friend tweeted that he needs to get his butt in gear to move off Heroku
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@ReviewSearchDE the pulse comic book news: Reviews; Indieweb Television; Books ; Podcast; ... From Marvel Comics… https://www.google.com/url?rct=j&sa=t&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjsj.wareagle.at%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3DWant_to_download_the_pulse_comic_book_news_free_download_CO9td&ct=ga&cd=CAIyGjRhNDEyNzI4ZjYyMjAyZTY6Y29tOmRlOlVT&usg=AFQjCNEfF2IewOVUtydMMBoM-3UODpcung&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter #comic #reviews (twitter.com/_/status/583039973504368640)
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@GeekTweeters RT @ReviewSearchDE: the pulse comic book news: Reviews; Indieweb Television; Books ; Podcast; ... From Marvel Comics… http://t.co/2Edajhezy… (twitter.com/_/status/583042358268289025)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: re: how do you get only your posts that are articles - I read into memory one entire storage bim file at a time, and then look backwards in time through those posts until I find enough of the type of post I am looking for.
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tantek so if there a three blog posts in the most recent bim - it's one file read
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tantek KartikPrabhu: perhaps add that article to /Facebook#Criticism ? or maybe even /silo-quits
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tantek (or both)
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tantek https://the-pastry-box-project.net/antonio-savorelli/2015-march-31
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tantek goes to reserve space for 2015-04-22 HWC SF
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KartikPrabhu on it
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KartikPrabhu what is facebook
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Loqi Facebook is a popular content hosting silo and activity aggregator most well known for being the largest centralized social network on the web https://indiewebcamp.com/Facebook
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kylewm tantek: if you wanted to display an /articles feed with more articles, I don't think some sort of index would be a premature optimization there
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KartikPrabhu what is silo-quits?
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Loqi silo quits are public statements by individuals announcing they have publicly quit posting on or using (at all) various silos, either with intended permanence, or temporarily (sometimes referred to as taking a "social media break") https://indiewebcamp.com/silo-quits
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tantek kylewm: not sure - might depend on how many articles I was displaying on /articles
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tantek kylewm: I'd say the optimization would be premature until you have measured perf > 1s display time
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kylewm when I was doing file storage, I added a big index for looking up posts by tag
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kylewm but the index itself was quite large and took a non-trivial amount of time to read
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: it seems IndieAuth is not doing the redirect properly. logging into a page redirects to wiki homepage after authorization
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tantek ok, confirmed MozSF for 2015-04-22 HWC!
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tantek kylewm: you had one file per post right?
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tantek (aside: based on like decades of experience, optimzing for minimizing file I/O is a great place to start with perf - as that's almost always the first-order perf bottleneck for anything - I/O)
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (-5) "SF location confirmed @MozSF, RSVP for SF" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /silo-quits (+870) "added Antonio Savorelli" (view diff)
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tantek !tell kylewm while you're creating the HWC SF event for 2015-04-08, go ahead and create one for 2015-04-22 also - since we have both locations confirmed. https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm tantek_: ok sounds good re hwc events; and yes I had one file per post
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 10 minutes ago: while you're creating the HWC SF event for 2015-04-08, go ahead and create one for 2015-04-22 also - since we have both locations confirmed. https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-31/line/1427844887549
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