#indiewebcamp 2015-04-30

2015-04-30 UTC
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tantek hmm - I'm having trouble with a note article distinction
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tantek what started as a medium note (no pun intended), became a long note, then with lists (yes plural)
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tantek and it still has the tone of a quick "note", but now is starting to look/structure like a blog post / article.
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tantek and yet I'd almost rather prefer the informality of a long (semi-structured) note than do anything so formalizing as put a name/title on it
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tantek does anyone else ever have these issues when writing medium/long notes?
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GWG Good evening
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tantek evening GWG, any thoughts on the above ^^^
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aaronpk why is case insensitivity a different problem?
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aaronpk these are all problems with trying to map URLs to a filesystem
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tantek aaronpk - I'm still thinking on a solution for case insensitivity.
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aaronpk i haven't heard of a solution for the file+folder problem yet either
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tantek huh? I can put "/" in a folder name in OSX
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tantek not sure how it escapes it, but it "works" in the UI
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aaronpk that doesn't sound very portable, and doesn't work on the command line so probably also doesn't work from code, but haven't tried in code yet
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GWG If it is that long, I always switch to a note.
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aaronpk i wouldn't be able to put that on a linux filesystem to run on a web server though
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tantek huh? why not try the UI action then doing an ls in the terminal to see how it works?
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aaronpk it uh, has a ":" when I do ls
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aaronpk and `mkdir test:` results in a / in the UI
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tantek cool
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aaronpk which means now I can't store files with ":" in the URL
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tantek hmm I can't put a ":" in the name of a folder in the Finder
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tantek still it solves your immediate real problem
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tantek oh easy hack, use "//" for a ":" - only the trailing single-slash "/" is used for folder names :)
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tantek now about those capital letters
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tantek actually, better idea
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tantek URL escape both ":" and any capital letters. Done
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tantek :D
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aaronpk that's not gonna work on linux though
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aaronpk all of these sound like hacks, or like clever workarounds that are osx specific
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tantek ":" -> %3A
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tantek "E" -> %45
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tantek all done :D
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tantek A-Z => %41-%5A
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tantek none of them are OSX specific
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aaronpk osx is the only way i can have both "test" and "test/" on the filesystem
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tantek you can't use ":" in the filename on other systems?
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aaronpk oh i guess i can name a folder "test:" on linux
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tantek as it is in the command line on OSX
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tantek no difference there
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aaronpk huh
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aaronpk that might work
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aaronpk i'd better document the three problems again just to double check
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tantek just leave it to me to come up with short syntax hacks, whether for class names, or file / folder names ;)
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aaronpk of course URL escaping capital letters loses the readability of those
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aaronpk luckily most URLs are mostly lowercase
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tantek yeah, acceptable compromise for the rarer frequency of capital letters
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tantek see, 80/20 rule and everything
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tantek solving that kind of problem I find much easier than things like note/article distinction :/
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GWG I think I mispook
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GWG mispoke.
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GWG I'm off today it seems
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GWG If it is that long, I always switch from a note.
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tantek one consideration is the effect on POSSEing, specifically, how Bridgy Publish will treat it, e.g. when POSSEing to FB
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tantek specifically, it seems Bridgy Publish ignores semantic markup in an article like lists, which are often essential to convey the meaning of a post
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aaronpk we need one more rule
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aaronpk if the URL you're saving ends in /, then URL encode that
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tantek whereas if I do the whole thing with plain text and whitespace, then the list bullets / numbers and formatting are all done there, which Bridgy Publish (mostly) propagates
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aaronpk in order to be able to store 2015 2015/ and 2015/Germany
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tantek I do find that I have to edit the Bridgy Publish FB POSSE copy and manually add back the linebreaks
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tantek aaronpk - yes that makes sense
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tantek perhaps worthy of documenting on /IndieArchive, and cite today's log as the reasnonining / derivation
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aaronpk this does mean this will always require code to serve these files back via http, since this won't work with apache or nginx filesystem serving
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tantek curious what snarfed / kylewm thinks in terms of what Bridgy Publish could/should do with both markup inside articles, and whitespace inside notes
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tantek aaronpk - indeed
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aaronpk lastly, regarding versioning and human-readability of the filesystem, i think it would make more sense to put the timestamp at the end
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snarfed fwiw bridgy publish uses html2text (https://github.com/Alir3z4/html2text) to convert html to text
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aaronpk archive/example.com/path/to/file/DDD/SSS or file.DDD.SSS
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snarfed i'd love to support more kinds of formatting, but i'm not very interested in implementing it myself
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tantek aaronpk - I think that results in more folders :(
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aaronpk otherwise content from example.com could be spread around any number of DDD/SSS folders
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GWG snarfed: Got a moment?
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snarfed GWG: just a moment, sure
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tantek lol
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GWG snarfed: Got a chance to look at that plugin?
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tantek do I need to add "Got a moment?" to CommProtocols? ;)
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snarfed GWG: context? which plugin?
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GWG tantek: I flaunt social conventions.
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aaronpk i'm imagining asking myself this later: "where is the latest version of X" or "how many versions of X do I have"
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snarfed tantek: lol probably yes
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GWG snarfed: The Indie-Webactions one?
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snarfed GWG: ah. you mean, can i install and try it?
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snarfed not now but soon!
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tantek aaronpk I believe archivists keep things by year in general
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GWG snarfed: I continue to try to get to stable.
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tantek that is, the question of, what sites did I reference / archive in year / day x?
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aaronpk archivists also came up with the WARC format so...
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tantek is more interesting / frequent than "where is the latest version of X" or "how many versions of X do I have"
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aaronpk in practice i have needed to find a file on disk in order to delete the cached version more often than i have ever asked my self "what did I reference in Y"
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aaronpk "what sites did I reference in Y" can almost as easily be answered by just reading my web pages from that year
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GWG I'm still trying to figure out...Portland or Edinburgh
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tantek aaronpk - another problem - putting the DDD/SSS at the end breaks the URL path
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tantek into two pieces
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aaronpk could be . instead of /
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tantek since you end up putting the filename.ext inside DDD/SSS :(
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tantek that's the other reason I remember
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aaronpk no, i would tack that on to the end in either case
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tantek I wanted to keep the paths intact
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aaronpk remember this is the filesystem representation, which has nothing to do with the URL it's served from
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tantek which works really well for the *typical* case
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tantek of lowercase URLs
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aaronpk so we can still use the URL format documented on /IndieArchive
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aaronpk it's just a matter of mapping that URL to a filesystem path
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tantek hmm - I'm reconsidering "tag/" for folders
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tantek wondering if "tag." for the file would be better, and "tag" for the folder
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tantek the advantage being, that the directory structures would actually map to URLs
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tantek like relative paths in the files would actually work "locally"
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tantek I like inspectability of such systems
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tantek e.g. being able to just double-click a .html file in a folder, and have it find relative paths to .css files etc.
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tantek IMO inspectable archives are far more reliable
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aaronpk that's a whole different problem i think
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tantek as in, inspectable *cross-platform* *without* having to *always* run custom code
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aaronpk i wouldn't count on that working most of the time, based on my experience trying to archive several websites
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tantek no not a different problem at all
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tantek inspectability is key to longevity
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tantek even if it's only 80%
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aaronpk it is in practice, because people have css/js files on other domains, or with weird characters in them all the time
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tantek not "all the time"
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aaronpk 100% of the sites i archived had this happen
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tantek that's a horrible mischaracterization. I'd say 80/20 is *same domain*
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tantek except external libraries like jquery and webfonts
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aaronpk anyway gotta run to dinner, back online later!
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Loqi slack/snarfed: btw tantek sorry, didn't mean to be so brusque. I'd happily accept PRs against html2text!
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tantek ah interesting!
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tantek ok for the article with markup -> text for FB etc.
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tantek e.g. serializing various semantic HTML elements into default presentation. p blockquote ol ul li
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kylewm tantek: how do you think long notes with whitespace should look in a reader?
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kylewm or just notes with whitespace, length is irrelevant
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kylewm my impression is that your use of white-space: pre-wrap; is somewhat unorthodox?
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tantek kylewm: it's not unorthodox at all, but rather following a pattern established by both Twitter and Facebook
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tantek what is a note?
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Loqi A note is a post that is typically short unstructured* plain text, written & posted quickly, that has its own permalink page https://indiewebcamp.com/note
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tantek kylewm: plenty of research and analysis for your review: https://indiewebcamp.com/note#Whitespace
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tantek this is perhaps a key distinguishing and useful factor of explicitly typing notes vs. articles - notes can be expected to preserve whitespace, and auto-link / auto-embed
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kylewm looking at twitter css now, i wouldn't have guessed that's how they did linebreaks. interesting!
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tantek whereas articles are expected to have explicit markup instead of preserving whitespace and auto-linking / embedding
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tantek kylewm: yeah I tried to be pretty thorough before implementing :)
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tantek looks like I started documenting research and thoughts about it just over 2 years ago! https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=note&direction=next&oldid=1803#White_space
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kylewm so your photos in notes are autolinked, and not embedded with <img> markup?
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tantek that's right
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tantek when authoring I "just" drop in a .jpg URL
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tantek knowing that it will "just work"
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tantek the way that Slack does for example
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kylewm does anyone else in IWC have pure-plaintext notes like that?
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tantek I've also brainstormed a bit about how I would auto-link plain text image URLs with alt text, to other URLs etc., but have not expanded CASSIS auto_link to do that yet: http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/59905776/Markdown#Hyperlinkswithlinktext
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tantek ugh sorry about that silo URL
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tantek better: tantek.com/w/Markdown#Hyperlinkswithlinktext
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tantek kylewm: AFAIK - *everyones* plain text notes work that way
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kylewm my notes are Markdown so linebreaks turn into <br>s etc.
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tantek well for those that actually built a separate "note" type of post, rather than just hacking notes as title-less articles in their existing blog posting system
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tantek yes it was less work to use white-space prewrap and it was good enough for twitter
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tantek and FB too - when I was manually POSSEing to FB - I could just copy/paste my notes directly into it and it would "do the right thing" - no markup needed
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kylewm any suggestion on how to support this in Woodwind? use whitespace pre-wrap if there's no title?
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tantek yes, per "notes can be expected to preserve whitespace, and auto-link / auto-embed"
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kylewm well, your post has the links already autolinked and the photos already autoembedded
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tantek CASSIS auto_link is smart enough to not doubly do so
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tantek you can call it twice on the same input and you get the same thing
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tantek the bigger challenge is p-content vs e-content
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tantek kylewm: rather than "if there's no title", please use this Note Type Algorithm: http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm (and or report any problems you find with it)
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tantek sorry what I meant was auto_link(x) == auto_link(auto_link(x))
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kylewm yeah that's what i mean, if there's no p-name which is a title separate from the content
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kylewm i use a slightly different algorithm in mf2util, but it's based on this one
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tantek anyway - the "is this a note" algorithm is more complex than just "no title" that's all
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tantek hence I keep conditionalizing it "for notes" or "if it's a note"
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tantek rather than by some specific attribute
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tantek I'm really curious how people see a FB post that you have explicitly hidden from your timeline/profile
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tantek (evidence that some are seeing it - likes on it)
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tantek kylewm: re: your use of markdown for your notes, please add that here! http://indiewebcamp.com/note#markdown_or_plain_text
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kylewm ok
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kylewm i see p3k also uses pre-wrap, not sure how i missed this detail
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tantek (especially since we have a different approach - hence encouragement of documentation to show diversity of approaches)
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KartikPrabhu would appreciate testing/feedback on my UI to get the fragmentioned URL of selected text: https://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html
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kylewm barnabywalters is on team <p></p> though!
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kylewm.com edited /note (+244) "/* markdown or plain text */ add myself" (view diff)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: really nice. i'd sorta like if it rounded off to the nearest word if my selection is a little sloppy
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KartikPrabhu aah I see
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KartikPrabhu so drop trailing spaces and punctuations?
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kylewm looking at Fragmentions for poets to see if it uses the punctuation in a meaningful way
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kylewm http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html##night.+Rage
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KartikPrabhu boom
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KartikPrabhu also I'm using the latest syntax with one # and %20 escaped spaces, since if this works the space -> + is not needed
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Loqi slack/tantek: Note that space to + is only really valid in ? Query params
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kylewm yeah I think this UI is really nice. although the document sort of illustrates that paragraph level quoting is not always specific enough
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes, hence the new syntax preference
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: true! but that is a fragmention.js issue that can be very independently fixed
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KartikPrabhu also my code does not check if the text is first occurence or not, which might make it fail
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KartikPrabhu as in this http://www.kevinmarks.com/poemfragmentions.html#a+tool+is+made hasn't been done yet
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: although it does give you immediate feedback if your selection fails
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KartikPrabhu true
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kylewm one of the first ones i tried, there was an earlier instance
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KartikPrabhu aah neat
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kylewm actually i thought that was pretty cool :)
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KartikPrabhu side effect of not trying to do too much :P
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snarfed this was entertaining: https://snarfed.org/understanding-huffduff-video-bandwidth-usage
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KevinMarks Does blocking googlebot block appengine fetch?
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KevinMarks Kylewm I'm using the same note technique for app.willsomeone.com
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KevinMarks Tantek, have you looked at inlining tweets or other note urls like you do with images?
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KevinMarks I know aaron does that with twitter urls
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Loqi slack/snarfed: KevinMarks_: re googlebot and app engine fetch, it shouldn't
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notizblog.org edited /User:Notizblog.org (+90) "/* related articles (print) */" (view diff)
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@DataC5155 Most of the main site is finished, but all of the product pages still need to be done. #indieweb #indiedev https://twitter.com/oSoftDev/status/593667815007191040 (twitter.com/_/status/593668393619820544)
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@TheIndieSloth RT @DataC5155: Most of the main site is finished, but all of the product pages still need to be done. #indieweb #indiedev https://t.co/aRK… (twitter.com/_/status/593668437710348288)
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@IndieGameDevBot RT @DataC5155: Most of the main site is finished, but all of the product pages still need to be done. #indieweb #indiedev https://t.co/aRK… (twitter.com/_/status/593668589833576448)
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@GameDevRobot RT @DataC5155: Most of the main site is finished, but all of the product pages still need to be done. #indieweb #indiedev https://t.co/aRK… (twitter.com/_/status/593668869358788608)
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@digisim RT @benwerd: This piece about Known makes me so happy. Owning your space is about being free. http://audreywatters.com/2015/04/29/reclaim-known/ #indieweb #reclaimyour… (twitter.com/_/status/593669017119907840)
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pfefferle good morning
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KevinMarks_ morning
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KevinMarks_ indieweb all the things: http://app.willsomeone.com/showask?askid=ag5zfndpbGwtc29tZW9uZXIkCxIHQXNrbGlzdCIHc29tZW9uZQwLEgNBc2sYgICAgODazQsM
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voxpelli good morning!
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petermolnar good morning
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acegiak yo, if I were gonna show someone one youtube video to introduce them to the indieweb movement what should I show them?
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pfefferle acegiak if vimeo is ok too… https://vimeo.com/77352414
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acegiak pfefferle: yeah definitely thanks!
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@acegiak hey @sonjaviv re: this evening's chat: checkout http://indiewebcamp.com and https://vimeo.com/77352414 - http://acegiak.net/2015/04/30/10818/ (twitter.com/_/status/593721172912525312)
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rhiaro adactio: I couldn't make 20/21 June in Brighton but could do 11/12 July
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rhiaro !tell barnabywalters: less likely I could do 11/12 July in Berlin now (but not impossible); if there was one in Brighton then instead I'd go to that
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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petermolnar I'd prefer a Brighton one as well ( or an Amsterdam one )
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petermolnar oh, there is one in Brighton, I didn't realize that
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015 (+28) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] Pierre Ozoux posted 'Introducing OuiShareLabs Camp 3 min read Introducing OuiShar...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/store (https://microblog.pierre-o.fr/2015/introducing-ouisharelabs-camp)
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voxpelli petermolnar: add yourself under the Brighton one in the wiki: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015#Candidate_Cities :)
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petermolnar.eu edited /2015 (+25) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /2015 (+0) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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petermolnar wtf, why can't I add my username?
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu (+17) "/* used silos */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu created /petermolnar (+32) "Redirected page to [[User:Petermolnar.eu]]" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /2015 (-3) "/* Candidate Cities */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu created /Template:petermolnar (+146) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">{{sparkline|https://s.gravatar.com/avatar/1915b220dfe0cc56209cb4d11b389383?s=128}}[[User:Petermolnar.eu|Peter Molnar" target="_blank">User:Petermolnar.eu|Peter" target="_blank">https://s.gravatar.com/avatar/1915b220dfe0cc56209cb4d11b389383?s=128}}[[User:Petermolnar.eu|Peter Molnar]]</span>"" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu () "(-831)" (view diff)
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@g16n @iandevlin Can you recommend some place to stay in Düsseldorf (IndieWebCamp and btconf)? (twitter.com/_/status/593754945695981568)
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@hmans @mbrochh Es ist ein auf IndieWeb-Ideen aufsetzendes, verteiltes Social Network. Es ist anders/besser als Diaspora. Details per Mail? (twitter.com/_/status/593772928333979648)
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aaronpk kylewm: have you considered showing the syndication URLs on posts in woodwind?
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@elfpavlik @paultranvan @MyCozyCloud awesome! I just need to confirm it with @harryhalpin and @lehors http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-30/line/1430410832624 //cc @SocialWebWG (twitter.com/_/status/593812546664071168)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieArchive (+1711) "add notes on how to store this on disk" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieArchive (+118) "/* Storage */ nowiki" (view diff)
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aaronpk tantek: for your review: https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive#Storage
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieArchive (+0) "/* Storage */ caps" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh i didn't include anything about timestamps yet
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snarfed lol PSC false positive https://www.facebook.com/7724450/posts/10102306756099158
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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aaronpk false positive?
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aaronpk oh hey it says "see original" on it!!
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snarfed false positive for PSC extractors since it ends in (10.10 Yosemite)
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aaronpk ohh
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snarfed the see original is definitely nice though!
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snarfed the downstream lol is https://www.brid.gy/facebook/7724450#responses
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snarfed Computers R Dumm
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tantek snarfed, 10.10 is not a valid TLD :P
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aaronpk actually 10.10 is shorthand for the IP address 10.0.0.10
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tantek "Permashort citations are the parenthesized ccTLD and path" http://indiewebcamp.com/PSC##parenthesized
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ben_thatmustbeme 10.10 isn't a valid URL?
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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tantek snarfed, you're welcome to re-use the regex for ccTLDs from CASSIS.js auto_link :D
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snarfed tantek: oh god
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aaronpk it's beefy
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snarfed thank you so much, but…um…hey look over there!
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snarfed runs away
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aaronpk it also doesn't work wih the new gTLDs
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tantek deliberately
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tantek I meant it when I said **ccTLDs**
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snarfed don't get me wrong, cassis itself is great, i just really don't want to maintain a copy of that if i can avoid it
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tantek what are the chances that new countries will be introduced? ;)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "chances that new countries will be introduced" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=chances+that+new+countries+will+be+introduced&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-30%2Fline%2F1430413203695
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aaronpk not 0
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snarfed when i worked on a payment processing system that supported most of the world for a few years, it happened roughly twice a year :P
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snarfed (counting adds, removes, and changes)
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snarfed same w/currencies
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aaronpk tantek: did you get a chance to look at this? I tried writing up the discussion from yesterday https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive#Storage
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tantek currencies are worse than countries
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tantek aaronpk - yeah - looks good - though what did you think of keeping foldernames the same (no : / ) and using an trailing "." for extensionless filenames like "tag" ?
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aaronpk would you also append a "." to filenames like "styles.css"?
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aaronpk i think you'd have to in order to be consistent
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tantek oh because that could be a folder name?!?
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aaronpk otherwise you're back in the same boat, where a folder that has a "." can't be used as a filename (example.com/foo.css and example.com/foo.css/bar)
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aaronpk and i've actually seen that happen
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tantek ugh
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tantek heck, example.com :P
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kylewm aaronpk: syndication posts on urls in woodwind -- right now I show them if the syndicated post was also found by woodwind... do you think it would be useful to show them all the time?
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aaronpk tantek: haha actually the archive itself is going to have URLs like that
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tantek.com edited /IndieArchive (+81) "/* Origins */ found citation for the OSCON session that inspired this discussion" (view diff)
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kylewm snarfed: tantek: I use cassis to count characters in my UI and my own python regex to shorten the actual tweet text -- bit me the other day when I was writing about hub.mode and hub.url. cassis correctly ignored them, but my code thought they were urls
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tantek heh
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tantek pretty sure that's why twitter gave up on auto-linking plain ccTLDs
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tantek which is why PSC work at all - they depend on that one neat trick
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tantek.com edited /IndieArchive (-7) "/* Origins */ -dup 2011" (view diff)
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aaronpk kylewm: i don't know if you've seen the hackernews feed in your logs, but I add syncation URLs for the posts pointing to the HN URL, and it would be useful to show those in woodwind
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aaronpk http://hackernews.p3k.io/
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kylewm that's interesting! do you think that's an overload of "syndication", or not?
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aaronpk depends on whether syndication is meant to mean syndicated by the author of the post
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aaronpk I've submitted my own posts to HN before, and included the syndication url to the HN version on my post
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aaronpk and I've seen many other HN posts link to the HN copy, whether or not it was submitted by the author
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aaronpk tantek: another thing I was thinking is that it'd be useful to be able to keep the HTTP headers that were part of fetching the URL (in order to preserve content-type or modified date for example)
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aaronpk so I was thinking about storing the headers in a file alongside the page, like page.headers
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aaronpk at which point I could store the page in page.data, and then folders could just be folders without the ":"
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barnabywalters aaronpk: taproot/archive stores the headers in a .txt file with the same name as the .html file
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Loqi barnabywalters: rhiaro left you a message 5 hours, 55 minutes ago: less likely I could do 11/12 July in Berlin now (but not impossible); if there was one in Brighton then instead I'd go to that http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-30/line/1430392772992
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aaronpk barnabywalters: do you store css or image files too?
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barnabywalters nope, only HTML so far
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aaronpk k
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aaronpk i'm trying to make this work for all kinds of files
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barnabywalters my archives are quite big enough without storing a bunch of CSS, much less images!
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk i'm at 400mb now, but if I gzip that it'll be a lot smaller
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barnabywalters here’s what the top level of my archive of your site looks like: https://waterpigs.co.uk/img/screen-shot-2015-04-30-at-171613.png
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aaronpk only one version of my home page?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah, I very rarely link to your homepage
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barnabywalters if I did more often then there would be more versions, as microformats changes will trigger a new version creation
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tantek but it's changed so much!
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barnabywalters when I was building taproot/archive I looked into using a zip archive as the fake filesystem. It has a bunch of benefits including vastly reduced filesize, fairly easy to inspect (just unzip) and it works like a key-value based file storage system, where trailing slashes are significant and any character can be used in the keys
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barnabywalters the problem with that is that as soon as you unzip it, the keys break (IIRC — I was experimenting with this a looong time ago)
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aaronpk this? http://php.net/manual/en/class.ziparchive.php
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aaronpk yeah you'd have the case sensitivity and weird-chars-in-filenames problem when you unzip it
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barnabywalters yeah, that’s what I was going to use
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barnabywalters there’s also the danger that it could become corrupt more easily than a regular filesystem
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk indeed
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barnabywalters but that could be mitigated by regularly unzipping the active archive onto long-term backup media
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barnabywalters doesn’t solve the file path characters/case sensitivity issues though
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aaronpk i think if i used that, i'd still want to normalize the filenames using the rules i just added to /IndieArchive
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barnabywalters aaronpk: looking over your algorithm, I can’t figure out if it gracefully handles treating http://example.org:80/path/to/file and http://example.org/80/path/to/file as separate URLs
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loqi.me created /EtherCalc (+102) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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aaronpk ooh damn edge cases
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barnabywalters IIRC that occurred to me when I was building taproot/archive, but I couldn’t figure out a good solution so ignored it
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aaronpk oh actually as described they would not conflict, but my examples don't match the description!
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barnabywalters oh, would it be handled by the trailing escaped slash thing?
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aaronpk yeah all folders get a colon appended, including the domain name "folder"
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aaronpk so it'd be http/example.org:80:/path:/to:/file and http/example.org:/80:/path:/to:/tile
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aaronpk however my intent was not to include the colon on the domain name, but maybe it's actually necessary after all
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aaronpk this doesn't look bad http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/archive-20150430-103006.jpg
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barnabywalters those folder names with slashes in are creepy
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aaronpk that's just OSX rendering : as /
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barnabywalters aaronpk:
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barnabywalters I know, but it’s WEIRD
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tantek.com edited /EtherCalc (+215) "open source, Node.js based" (view diff)
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/archive-20150430-103157.png
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barnabywalters so my vaguely indieweb project yesterday evening and this afternoon was getting http://radio.waterpigs.co.uk set up to do live streamed audio on my domain using icecast2
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tantek.com moved /node.js to /Node.js "cap"
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aaronpk oh wait a sec
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tantek.com edited /node (+0) "-r" (view diff)
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aaronpk the first url escape takes care of the :80
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/archive-20150430-103329.png
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barnabywalters right now you can hear uninteresting traffic and typing noises from my office: http://radio.waterpigs.co.uk/live
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tantek barnabywalters: have you told adactio about this? I bet he'd be interested, per huffduffer and all that.
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barnabywalters tantek: nope, it only started working properly 30 minutes ago :)
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snarfed icecast! oh man, blast from the past
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snarfed winamp era
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barnabywalters icecast2 was super easy to set up on my server, but getting apache to proxy requests through was a bit trickier
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tantek what is icecast2?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "icecast2" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=icecast2&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-30%2Fline%2F1430415340898
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barnabywalters snarfed: ha ha yeah, and the web UI uses XSLT!
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barnabywalters so if I type Icecast2 (different capitalisation) will loqi handle it correctly?
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aaronpk i don't remember
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barnabywalters okay, I’ll do lower case and move afterwards to cover all the bases
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tantek try it and find out!
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barnabywalters Icecast2 is an open source audio streaming server http://icecast.org/
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loqi.me created /Icecast2 (+96) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-30/line/1430415340898 and dfn added by barnabywalters" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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snarfed reminds me of one of the few windows apps i ever wrote, https://snarfed.org/remote
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barnabywalters apparently it likes it
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aaronpk snarfed: wow
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tantek gives Loqi a capitalized word.
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Loqi hearts the capitalized word.
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snarfed "blaize.stanford.edu" oh man memories
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kylewm wow, this is hilarious. someone on my dorm wrote an aggregator for everyone running Winamp with the SpyAmp plugin, so you could see what everyone else on the floor was listening to
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:indiearchive-example-files.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieArchive (+213) "/* Storage */ add screenshot" (view diff)
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barnabywalters so now I’m trying to figure out a way of automatically recording every icecast broadcast I do, storing it in an archive by mountpoint (URL) and datetime
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aaronpk neat
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barnabywalters there doesn’t seem to be any way of conveniently hooking into icecast though
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barnabywalters but as I’m proxying requests to it through apache, maybe there’s some apache feature I can (ab)use
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barnabywalters ah, and there’s a playlist log file which I could watch for changes
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barnabywalters I wonder if there’s already a tool for shimming logfiles into pub/sub type event dispatcher systems
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aaronpk oh you could even create a symlink from the plain filename to the latest versioned filename
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barnabywalters aaronpk: hm, I actually hadn’t thought about making them public, but that would make total sense if I did
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barnabywalters yeah, SOURCE /live log lines turn up whenever a broadcast is started or stopped
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aaronpk now i'm leaning towards http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/archive-20150430-110141.png
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barnabywalters aaronpk: that’s certainly robust, but the lack of correct file extensions makes it much less observable
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aaronpk "correct" file extensions is a losing battle
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barnabywalters I also initially tried .headers and got fed up of not being able to hit space and quicklook at them
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barnabywalters s/correct/observable
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aaronpk the problem is a URL that has no file extension might be an image, or might be a css file, and there's no way to tell from the URL
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aaronpk or css files might end in a query string and lots of numbers styles.css?v=18345
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aaronpk or a URL that ends in .png might not be a png (e.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/File:indiearchive-example-files.png
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barnabywalters I strip query strings from URLs, but get the feeling you want your archiver to be less opinionated :)
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snarfed kylewm: funny. kind of the opposite of https://snarfed.org/synchronizing_mp3_playback
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KartikPrabhu is there no way to use some sort of mime-type?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: that kind of thing tends to be filesystem-dependent
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: no i mean use the mime-type of the request to decide the file extension?
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KartikPrabhu s/request/web request
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: aaronpk: no i mean use the mime-type of the web request to decide the file extension?
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aaronpk that sounds very prone to accidental clobbering on the filesystem
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KartikPrabhu I see
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barnabywalters you could maintain a list of the most common mime types and their equivalents, and use .data for rarer files
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aaronpk i'm pretty sure i could come up with a list of examples that would be impossible to store that way
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aaronpk another problem is relying on a mime type to determine path means you can't determine the path based only on the URL, so it becomes hard to programmatically find things later
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KartikPrabhu valid point ^
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aaronpk there's always going to be a tradeoff between the inspectability of the files vs robustness vs assumptions made about ppls URLs
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aaronpk with spiderpig, I made several assumptions that allowed me to create files on disk that can be served directly by a web server and result in the same website. however i had to do things like force every page to end in a slash, adding redirects that weren't on the original site
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aaronpk e.g. this original URL http://events.geoloqi.com/venues/9 is now served from http://events.geoloqi.com/venues/9/
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aaronpk but that's safe for me to do in this case because the archive is replacing the original site, so I don't need to worry about replacing that URL
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tantek makes sense
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aaronpk hmm i suppose a glob could find a file named styles.css.YMD.hms.css or photo.YMD.hms.png
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aaronpk that would slow down access time slightly, but that's not the end of the world
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aaronpk also could fix that by making a symlink from .data to .css
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aaronpk i kind of like that, it solves the inspectability issue
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/archive-20150430-114211.png
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KevinMarks__ Open Cloud day? Does that sound indieweb? http://www.oscon.com/open-source-2015/public/cfp/395?cmp=tw-prog-confpro-reg-os15_395
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snarfed KevinMarks_: looks like more the openstack, docket, etc crowds
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KevinMarks_ Tempted to add utm_source rewriting to autolink
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@elfpavlik @paultranvan all done! see on Monday :) http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-04-30/line/1430424171684 @MyCozyCloud (twitter.com/_/status/593868535467749376)
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KevinMarks_ Barnaby: http://www.aaronsw.com/2002/howto/stream
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@kevinmarks @w3cmemes have you considered getting an #indieweb site? (twitter.com/_/status/593876856799043584)
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aaronpk trololol
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@dailypia Nun kämpfe ich schon seit 3 Tagen mit Webmention. Alles klappt, nur die likes und replys werden nicht im Frontend ausgegeben. HEUL! (twitter.com/_/status/593882321113219074)
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Loqi [mention] Barnaby Walters posted 'So far, a large part of my experimentations with graphical dataflow programming have been using Puredata which, whilst usable for general pr...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/https (/articles/how-to-stream-live-audio-over-the-web-using-icecast2-and-puredata/)
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KevinMarks_  Last week I wrote about Facebook’s AOL-like dominance and concluded, “What might be the broadband to Facebook’s dial-up?” The answer, I think, is this open Twitter: an identity system for the rest of the web that connects people and apps according to interests, not just superficial relationships, and monetizes accordingly.
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KevinMarks_ http://stratechery.com/2015/twitter-needs-new-leadership/
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snarfed sure, no biggie, throw that together in a weekend or two :P
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kylewm it's kind of terrifying to think of twitter as the identity and communication substrate of the internet :p
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aaronpk nah don't do that
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KevinMarks as I last night described indieweb to people as "like an open twitter" I read that differently
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GWG KevinMarks: I thought identi.ca was like an open Twitter
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aaronpk this is going to be crazy https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2015/04/30/deprecating-non-secure-http/
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KevinMarks i explained the difference between a monoculture and actually open
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KartikPrabhu oh noes! how will I log in using the hotel wifi now?
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GWG I think the Internet could use an https/http 2 push
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tantek aaronpk - indeed - mass mozilla dev-platform thread on that with lots of debate from many sides
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aaronpk frankly i didn't expect a resolution on that so quickly
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tantek there's lots of caveats and to-be-scheduled/scoped in that "resolution"
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@HongPong even youtube links are getting kicked off of facebook, it's spilled outta control. this is why you need #indiewebcamp design principles (twitter.com/_/status/593926822909321216)
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