#indiewebcamp 2015-05-04

2015-05-04 UTC
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@EvilKimau @PlayMedusa Big believer in the Indie Web Movement http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started a lot of these systems comprimise that or make it harder (twitter.com/_/status/595020023934124032)
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KevinMarks Could you use <details><summary> for marginalia? Seems semantically right
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: I am avoiding changing the markup that already exists in the page.
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KartikPrabhu the problem is not about semantics but the fact that in HTML some elements are not allowed inside others
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kylewm !tell tantek could you please do your invite thing for https://www.facebook.com/events/868304959882663/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG kylewm: Tantek has an invite thing?
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kylewm GWG: yeah the thing where he invites everyone in san francisco to HWC
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GWG kylewm: Can he invite everyone in NYC too?
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@bookprescom Meeter Launches Smart Meeting Service on iOS, Android >> http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/?p=619491&utm_content=bufferbaa5b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Brandy Shaul. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/595075428307619840)
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: can you possibly just use only spans and classes to make the same appearance as an ol? I would certainly recommend against changing existing markup as that can break styling.
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: marginalia.js does not change the existing markup on the page. So i don't want to force it to use span
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ben_thatmustbeme Not what I mean. Your problem is p > span > ol can't exist correct?
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KartikPrabhu my problem is p > ol can't exist
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KartikPrabhu the ol is the markup on the existing page
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ben_thatmustbeme But can you work it just as p > span.fakeol
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ben_thatmustbeme Ohh I see hmm
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KartikPrabhu yes but the existing page could use something that is not ol and everything breaks
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KartikPrabhu i could tailer marginalia.js for my own site markup but that seems fragile
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ben_thatmustbeme Huh?
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KartikPrabhu s/tailer/tailor
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: i could tailor marginalia.js for my own site markup but that seems fragile
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ben_thatmustbeme Could you explain " use something that is not ol and everything breaks"
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KartikPrabhu I mean. I currently use <ol> for a list of responses. But if I make marginalia.js use that specific markup to hack around the display issues, the whole thing breaks if I decide tomorrow that my list of responses should be a div or something
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KartikPrabhu I don't want marginalia.js to touch any of the existing markup on the page; it should only move responses around
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ben_thatmustbeme Hmmm I'm also probably too tired to figure this out right now
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: no worries. I have been thinking of this for the whole weekend and can't see how to do it
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KartikPrabhu maybe hacking around <span> is the best way as you suggest
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acegiak morning, all
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 day, 12 hours ago: I had an idea. Need to bounce it off someone. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-02/line/1430590934310
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acegiak GWG: sorry for my absence! :P
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@_DECAF Put your chirrup where your blog is! Short notes w/ Ghost: http://blog.decaf.de/2015/05/01/how-to-crosspost-on-ghost-and-twitter/ @TryGhost #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/595128508436865024)
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tantek aaronpk: you asked recently about whether to add a feature (new post type) or work on fixing code
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Loqi tantek: kylewm left you a message 3 hours, 57 minutes ago: could you please do your invite thing for https://www.facebook.com/events/868304959882663/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-03/line/1430711237467
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tantek thanks for the reminder kylewm !
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tantek aaronpk: I think that's worth adding as an FAQ as I believe I have seen others ask similar questions before, e.g. GWG
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tantek trying to figure out how to phrase it well as an FAQ
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@derhess @hoodiehq Hi people,does someone of you travel to the #indieweb camp from Berlin to Düsseldorf? http://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc Looking for mfg :-) (twitter.com/_/status/595167489568448512)
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aaronpk just renewed the SSL cert for tokens.indieauth.com, apologies for letting it lapse for a few hours
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aaronpk broke my micropub endpoint for posting what I ate for lunch tho
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GWG Good morning, all
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@cdevroe @brentsimmons Just read your blog post about deleting tweets. You may like http://indiewebcamp.com specifically http://indiewebcamp.com/notes (twitter.com/_/status/595214974567456769)
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@AndrewSB49 RT @david_adamson: I'm curious about the idea of #indieweb publishing platform and how it differs to other blogging sites #withknown http:/… (twitter.com/_/status/595230946674225153)
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rhiaro_ aaronpk: deleting a post as in https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md doesn't create a 'delete' post. webactions smell of activities.
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aaronpk what is a delete?
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Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indiewebcamp.com/delete
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aaronpk the question is whether the delete action should be a post itself
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aaronpk a post that is a "delete-of" another post
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snarfed in addition to returning 410?
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snarfed meh
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aaronpk in addition to, yes
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aaronpk it becomes a problem of syncing two separate systems essentially
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snarfed by the same logic, we'd make new edit posts for every revision
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snarfed meh
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snarfed i wouldn't personally
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aaronpk see "deleting a comment" https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md#5-deleting-a-comment
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tantek by the existing logic of sometimes /edit posts do make sense, perhaps explicit /delete posts could make sense to delete stuff on other servers?
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aaronpk it works okay until trying to propagate the delete to Alexa's subscribers
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ben_thatmustbeme sounds a lot like activity streams
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ben_thatmustbeme posts aren't activities. if we want to start doing that i would say keep them seperate
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tantek an edit is a post
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tantek we've already figured that out
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't think it should be
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tantek "should" doesn't matter here per se - there's plenty of prior art, including from silos
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ben_thatmustbeme i think it should be an entry in a stream of activities, sure
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aaronpk the actual problem and the reason this came up is because of syncing the data to other servers
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, where?
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ben_thatmustbeme other than "edited their profile"
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: see /edit
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ben_thatmustbeme s/edited/updated/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: other than "updated their profile"
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tantek two most obvious ones are edits to wikis, and pull requests
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aaronpk it's a similar problem to notifying subscribers of a "like" of an old URL that is no longer on the front page
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tantek there are existing permalinks to "edit" posts on various platforms / sites
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md#2-ben-likes-the-video
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aaronpk see the TODO at the bottom of that section
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ben_thatmustbeme are we going to start treating code diffs as social web now?
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aaronpk stop arguing about edits and pay attention to me :P
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: we're documenting existing public behaviors
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: i can't really hear much in the room... audio cuts in and out... slow office network sadly
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: it's just idle chatter which is why i'm on IRC now
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm... should try from desktop instead of phone
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snarfed "sometimes" for edit and delete posts makes sense to me to
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snarfed for the given example of one person proposing them to someone else
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aaronpk yes it's a problem of syncing, regardless of how anyone feels it should work
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aaronpk this became clear to me after writing out these stories step by step and trying to describe how it works to the room
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petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress_Plugins (+11) "/* backfeed */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /WordPress_Plugins (-11) "/* backfeed */" (view diff)
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tantek hey aaronpk bret dietrich is there a HWC PDX this week?
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bret I can help host this week
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bret I'll also look into hosting at UA for when aaronpk and dietrich are out of town/busy
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bret for the future
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tantek bret - can you edit the HWC event wiki page for this week accordingly?
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tantek right now it says TBD for PDX
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bret sure
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bret.io edited /events/2015-05-06-homebrew-website-club (+193) "/* Where */" (view diff)
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dietrich bret: aaronpk tantek: i'm out for this and following meetup
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aaronpk i'll be back for rthe next one!
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tantek lol bret - that doesn't help - you need to put an actual location
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tantek so yes - your help is needed if it's going to happen in PDX
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tantek bret, you need to pick a location and edit the wiki with that - not the offer of help ;)
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tantek aaronpk and dietrich are both out this week
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kylewm !tell snarfed you need to update your great day job on https://www.brid.gy/about#cost :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bret oh i see
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-05-06-homebrew-website-club (-172) "/* Where */ location TBD by bret" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme google plus "collections" launched today"
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that's because Google already had something called "sets" :P
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ben_thatmustbeme they did?
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tantek yes - needs to be added to /site-deaths : http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2011/08/google-sets-will-be-shut-down.html
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ben.thatmustbe.me uploaded /File:Twitter_Android_notification.png "Example twitter updates from Androidoriginally posted at https://ben.thatmustbe.me/photo/2015/4/14/4/"
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /notification (+66) "/* Platform Examples */ add twitter example from android" (view diff)
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aaronpk okay here is a question... related to today's description of the user story
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aaronpk re: https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md
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aaronpk Alexa posts a video. Charles comments on the video. Denise likes Charles' comment.
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aaronpk in order for Alexa's followers to see Denise's "like" of Charles' comment, Alexa needs to publish that like in the feed that her followers are subscriebd to
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aaronpk should Alexa publish an h-cite of Denise's "like" on her home page?
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tantek I don't think Alexa's followers see that like by default in any stream or notification or activity UI
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aaronpk they don't see it in a notification or stream view, but they do on the post
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tantek but which does the user story imply?
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aaronpk actually I think the user story doesn't specify that Alexa's followers see the like
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /notification (+623) "Screenshots cannot be done currently. will have to add later" (view diff)
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tantek hmm - then best not to worry about a theoretical
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aaronpk it's only kinda theoretical, because current silo UIs support it
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, will push determine if data in entries have changed?
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ben_thatmustbeme or only new entries?
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: PuSH would solve that as long as the post is on the home page, but if it's an older post and scrolled off the page, it wouldn't show up
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tantek aaronpk: that's why such silo UIs need better capturing on /notifications
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't seem much of a problem with old posts getting outdated. so long as they are occasionally polled likely when viewed and a post is too old (intentionally vague here)
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aaronpk i guess i can drop this train of thought
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aaronpk it was me being overly ambitious when trying to solve this user story
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ben_thatmustbeme not sure why i used /me there...
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aaronpk i'm almost certain this one has the same mechanism https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#RSVPs_invitations_comments_to_an_event
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Loqi slack/snarfed: one alternative would be to have response posts propagate webmentions upstream. ie when Charles gets Denise's like wm, his server sends a corresponding wm to Alexa's backfed copy of his comment
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Loqi slack/snarfed: a bit contorted, and might need to relax the current wm backlink reqts, but it could work
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aaronpk snarfed: yes that's half the picture
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aaronpk that's already in the story
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aaronpk the problem is how does that like at the edge of the network get propagated back down to alexa's other followers
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Loqi slack/snarfed: ah. i guess I'm all for it getting updated on the copy of the comment that they see on her post, eg in a reader, but showing it to them as a top-level entry seems like overkill
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aaronpk yes! i'm absolutely not suggesting showing it as a top-level entry
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aaronpk but the data needs to get to other people *somehow*
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aaronpk and that's what's missing right now, we don't have a good mechanism for that
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Loqi slack/snarfed: hmm maybe. still not entirely convinced something's needed beyond what we already have
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Loqi slack/snarfed: but i haven't read the user stories, so i should shut up
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aaronpk i tried to summarize it just now so you don't have to read it
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Loqi slack/snarfed: if alexa's followers can already see it on the comment, and they wouldn't see it top level, how else would they see it?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: (thx)
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aaronpk right now I wouldn't see Denise's "like" post unless I go visit the original post on Alexa's site
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aaronpk but I wouldn't see it in my reader
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aaronpk (i'm also jumping one step ahead and assuming my reader is displaying comments on peoples' posts the way twitter/facebook do)
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Loqi slack/snarfed: so we have the notification protocol but just not the markup for inline likes on comments?
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aaronpk we're missing the notification protocol too
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Loqi slack/snarfed: hrm i thought that was what i proposed
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aaronpk you only described half the picture :)
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aaronpk you got Denise's like back up to Alexa's copy a different way than I described
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aaronpk but how does that get back down to Alexa's followers who don't follow Denise?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: ok
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Loqi slack/snarfed: what do you mean by "down to Alexa's followers?"
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Loqi slack/snarfed: in a reader?
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk where the reader might be a separate app or might be built in to my site
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tantek I don't think that's in any currently implemented user scenario
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Loqi slack/snarfed: the reader would get it on next poll? and it could also trigger PuSH?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: sorry i feel like I'm hurting more than helping here
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aaronpk snarfed: yes as long as the post is still on alexa's home page
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tantek nor even desirable (re: too much noise in feeds / streams)
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tantek better to start with interactions from existing UIs
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aaronpk tantek: i don't want to see it in a feed/stream. i'm trying to replicate the functionality that twitter and facebook provide
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tantek they don't do that
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tantek "down to Alexa's followers?"
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Loqi slack/snarfed: Tantek: agreed, we're not proposing it's shown top level
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Loqi slack/snarfed: just on the comment on the post
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aaronpk i'll find a screenshot
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Loqi slack/snarfed: train arrived, gtg
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aaronpk bam first post in my facebook timeline has it
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tantek such interactions don't trickle "down to Alexa's followers", they only show on notifications of people that have interacted with that post previously, e.g. commented on it
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tantek is this a reader view? a notification? what?
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tantek hence I think we need to start with capturing a screenshot to the wiki
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aaronpk incoming
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:displaying-likes-from-others.png]]""
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aaronpk !tell tantek here is an example of what i'm talking about. unless we solve this, I would never see the 8 other likes unless I go visit the original post https://indiewebcamp.com/File:displaying-likes-from-others.png
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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richardbrammer.de edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+325) "/* Participants */" (view diff)
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kylewm kind of an interesting variation on silo-quitting http://inessential.com/2015/05/03/the_man_who_deleted_all_his_tweets
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snarfed mark pilgrim style
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Loqi snarfed: kylewm left you a message 2 hours, 52 minutes ago: you need to update your great day job on https://www.brid.gy/about#cost :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-04/line/1430755227709
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kylewm I did something similar a couple years ago... deleted all my tweets older than a month or two with the expectation that i would keep doing it
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kylewm but i didn't :)
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reidab aaronpk++ for spiderpig
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Loqi aaronpk has 795 karma
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@NorthCreekSoft #ownyourdata looking for small biz data disasters. What's the worst that happened? @northcreeksoft is working on a solution. (twitter.com/_/status/595328225804431360)
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@Jonas_W Mal wieder eine neue Blogging/Publishing Plattform, sieht gut aus! #indieweb #known https://withknown.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/595350177281679363)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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chlodny_kurahen_ hell.o.world
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chlodny_kurahen_ #twister #tor #ukraine #cybersecurity
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loqi.me created /archive.is (+60) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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