#indiewebcamp 2015-05-22

2015-05-22 UTC
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gRegorLove
Is the "open external" icon at the bottom supposed to open a Woodwind view of the single post? I though tit would open the original in a new tab.
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: lol nice link to "Medium's brilliant engineers" ;)
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KartikPrabhu
too bad Medium eats up the fragmention
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aaronpk
can you make it a response to ev's post?
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kylewm
gRegorLove: yeah clicking the little "pop-out" icon is supposed to open just that post in a new tab. it was intended for podcasts mainly
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gRegorLove
Ah, that makes sense.
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aaronpk
note the section "No Database" :D
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KevinMarks__
I did, I thought
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@aaronpk
"The Web is the network" https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/the-web-is-the-network-d9e2ff2b18d5 a nice #indieweb followup to @ev's post "Medium is not a publishing tool"
(twitter.com/_/status/601540381927297027)
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu++ just caught up to the "Oh boy, Ten years?" comment. B.S. indeed!
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 93 karma
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gRegorLove
That 10 years comment sounds like job security. :)
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Vendan
meh, Creole is a better markup for wikis
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Vendan
and I won't touch yaml with a 10 foot pole
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@JosephRooks
@kevinmarks @ev the other key difference is that #IndieWeb isn't BSing people about "openness" to create phony feel-goodsies.
(twitter.com/_/status/601546783630741504)
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kylewm
Vendan: Creole is basically mediawiki syntax?
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kylewm
because, ick
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kylewm
but basically all the markups are fine and you should use whichever one you are used to
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Vendan
it's not too far different from markdown. Big difference is that it supports wiki-links natively
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Vendan
having to put a whole url into a link is kinda messed up for a wiki
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Vendan
but that's not that big a deal. I just can't stand yaml.
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kylewm
i too loathe YAML :)
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kylewm
p3k makes great use of it though
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kylewm
(aaronpk's site software)
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sparverius
pretty much all markup (even xml) is fine as long as you dont use the advanced features... to me at least
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Vendan
I can't stand it cause they forbid tabs
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Vendan
spaces for indentation is just insane
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aaronpk
i always indent with 2 spaces :)
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Vendan
bleh, tabs exist for a reason
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Vendan
one reason I like golang is that it has a hard style guide, and it says tabs
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Loqi
[bridgy] Sue TheWriter replied 'Hmm,I read the first part and will l read on. (Puppies gotta go out, tho!) Looks veeeeerrry promising! Thanks! @dougmckown' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/SueTheWriter/status/601255199064231936)
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__number5__
Vendan: what? tabs!! can't believe it
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Vendan
they make more sense then spaces...
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@kartik_prabhu
@craigmod Sounds more like a description of anything on the Web really.
(twitter.com/_/status/601567835710586880)
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@craigmod
Medium is made of … Humans! Networked, and network affected humans and their words: https://medium.com/the-story/medium-is-not-a-publishing-tool-4c3c63fa41d2
(twitter.com/_/status/601542938372345856)
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KevinMarks
Yaml started out as a decent idea, then it kept adding things
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KartikPrabhu
sounds like most formats ;)
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KevinMarks
Until it could be used to attack rubygems
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Vendan
Kinda want to build my own version of yaml, that's just a simple version of json without all the extra punctuation
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kylewm
looking at TOML makes me like YAML better :P
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kylewm
__number5__: alternate mattl screen name?
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mattl
Ha, no.
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kylewm
haha worth a shot
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kylewm
then welcome __number5__ !
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__number5__
nope, I'm new :)
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KartikPrabhu
I personally like Hyper-Text Markup Language
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Vendan
yeah, but html is terribly fragile
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Vendan
toml has an advantage in that it looks really similar to ini
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mattl
__number5__: I'm a big Short Circuit 2 fan
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__number5__
mattl: yep, that's where the nickname from
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__number5__
actually Short Circuit 1, since he changed to johnny 5 at 2 :P
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mattl
I'm making a monkey movie right now as my tribute to SC2
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mattl
Technically he changes to J5 in SC1 ;)
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__number5__
mattl: monkey movie?
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mattl
orangumovie.com
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__number5__
looks fun :)
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tantek.com
edited /next-iwc (-8) "2015 main"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /next-hwc (+0) "next June 3"
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tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+11) "next IWC is main, so far Portland and Brighton are on"
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tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+14) "tweak city/state/country"
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tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-22) "just cities"
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next June 3"
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tantek.com
edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+216) "add some more upcoming 2015 dates"
(view diff)
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GWG
I have returned
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tantek
I have as well, but will be sleeping soon
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tantek
GWG, I know two people at NYTimes apparently and will look into whether they can help with hosting things.
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tantek
keep pursuing all alternatives, but I wanted to give you that heads up
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GWG
tantek: I appreciate it.
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tantek
GWG, want to add an "o" next to your name in the New York City list? looks like bear wants to help you co-organize it: http://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc#Candidate_Cities
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david.shanske.com
edited /2015 (+1) "/* Candidate Cities */"
(view diff)
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GWG
I was down lower as an organizer.
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tantek
GWG, but you're the most local - so feel free to put yourself at the top of the organizers for NYC
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GWG
I meant, lower on the page under Organizers
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kylewm
have y'all done this DH-params thing yet? https://weakdh.org/sysadmin.html
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kylewm
those of you who run https, that is
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@ThanRobertson
RT @leolaporte: Posting this on MY site and syndicating it to Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn. Hoorah #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/601613443217555457)
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__number5__
kylewm: my sites is behind cloudflare ssl so it's ok
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tantek
in the spirit of acknowledging good critical feedback: https://twitter.com/t/status/601614748312940544
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@t
@matthillco thanks for kind words! @techytuppers good feedback. Changed IRC to webchat link. You’re right ... http://tantek.com/2015/141/t2/thanks-kind-words-good-feedback
(twitter.com/_/status/601614748312940544)
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tantek
kylewm: is that DH-params thing something that should be added to the steps to take in /HTTPS ?
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kylewm
tantek: I have no clue unfortunately, keeping up seems futile
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tantek
also I wonder how the efficacy / validity of the information at such one-off domains can be verified
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tantek
lots of magic hex codes
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kylewm
__number5__: that's great, what is your personal site's url?
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__number5__
kylewm: https://brucewang.net (and I'm going to update it with a Pelican version *soon*)
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__number5__
weakdh have a nice guide (and tester) for how to fix weak Diffie-Hellman issue https://weakdh.org/sysadmin.html
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tantek
__number5__: right, kylewm shared that link earlier.
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tantek
the question is, how the efficacy / validity of the information at such one-off domains can be verified? who checks it? or is it taken on faith that all the magic hex codes in there are correct?
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KartikPrabhu
working on photo post designs. Making my photo posts have custom photo layouts with uniform heights ;) https://kartikprabhu.com/article/dance-man
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craftycorvid
Any indieauth experts online?
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cweiske
depends what you mean with expert, but ask
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cweiske
kylewm, woodwind does not seem to use my hub for my h-feed page: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-05-22%20woodwind%20hfeed%20subscription.png
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cweiske
could you check why?
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cweiske
it's probably because I'm missing the rel=self link header
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craftycorvid
I think I found my answer... Looks like indieauth.com doesn't do paths, or follow redirects
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KevinMarks_
indieauth follows 301 redirects
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KevinMarks_
paths are a bit trickier
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craftycorvid
Huh...is that to say 302s won't do?
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KevinMarks_
302 means "this is temporary, don't rely on it"
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craftycorvid
Makes sense
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craftycorvid
301 now issued, but no luck. What's the trick with paths?
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craftycorvid
Helps to make the page public. X.x Appreciate the help...looks like I need sleep!
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KevinMarks_
ah, yes. not being on the web is tricky for indieauth
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@ianhsuth
Writers! Learn how to attract over 400 new followers every day and sell more books! http://ianhsutherland.wpengine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/TwitterSignup-1-AdvancedTwitterSignup.html #TwitterAdvice #Indieauth
(twitter.com/_/status/601683963300675584)
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benborges
by looking at this https://github.com/Psycojoker/hackeragenda do you know if Known events could be aggregated into this agenda system ?
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benborges
ICS agenda aggregator from multiple sources http://hackeragenda.be/
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benborges
would be great to have the EVENT post type to generate a ICS output
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petermolnar
good morning, indieweb
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petermolnar
article to read: http://www.refinery29.com/2015/05/87512/instagram-only-fashion-bloggers - as long as there is no way to POSSE to instagram, we're loosing ground :(
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petermolnar
I wonder if we could do that with invisible android emulators running behind a service running actual the instagram app and some kind of glue app to post from anywhere else
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benborges
isn't that already OwnYourGram site ?
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petermolnar
all solutions, inc. ownyourgram, is PESOS
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petermolnar
the -public- instagram api doesn't let you post
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endi
ownyourgram is reverse of what he's talking about, pulls from instagram
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benborges
ow ok got it wrong
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endi
which is what brid.gy does as well; pulls interactions back to the originating post
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endi
hm guess ownyourgram didn't like me
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endi
maybe it's because I'm at a subdomain
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petermolnar
endi what engine are you using?
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endi
I'm starting out w/ a self hosted Known site
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petermolnar
there is a pretty robust plugin for WordPress called Keyring Social Importers
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petermolnar
I'm not that familiar w/ Known yet
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endi
It's running on an RPi on my shelf :p
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endi
It's been a fun project; I'm new so I'm learning a ton
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petermolnar
are you running mongo on an rpi? :D
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endi
mysql I believe
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endi
been a bit since I got the db setup
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petermolnar
I once managed to get Mysql (Percona) + PHP + nginx on my previous phone, but that really was too slow for WordPress :)
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benborges
endi, funny i'm doing the same today, using labriqueinter.net hardware
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endi
benborges nice :D
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benborges
Yunohost stack & i will play with custom Yunohost apps to bundle a Known one
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benborges
"self-hosted in a box" labriqueinter.net comes with email, jabber, vpn, etc...it's simply amazing
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endi
Everything I did was simple since I was just starting; I'd setup Apache a few times but first time with a full LAMP stack, first time w/ a DB, first time configuring HTTPS
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endi
Yeah it looks great
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petermolnar
benborges a ages ago i started with virtualmin which was a pretty impressive bunch of perl scripts setting up everything for you for shared hosting
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petermolnar
eventually you want more and more control and understanding and will slowly, gradually start building things from (near) scratch
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petermolnar
( not gentoo though; that's just too hardcore )
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endi
As I set stuff up I am trying to learn more and get better connected
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petermolnar
endi apache?! why not nginx? especially on rpi
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endi
I haven't used IRC in ages but I thought I'd start to lurk around see what I can learn
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endi
petermolnar: umm just familiarity I suppose? I've had 2-3 sites on Apache, I had done a few virtual servers on a machine etc so I felt it best to start with something familiar
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petermolnar
please, pretty please, take a look at nginx + php-fpm; you'll never look back :)
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benborges
well Younohost is soo well done and simple (most of automatization is bash scripting) iv seen a non techy geek friend, start from nothing to having part of his needs self hosted in one day
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endi
nginx lighter on resources / better performance I would imagine?
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petermolnar
massively
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benborges
agree!
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endi
friends I've had working with nginx have had such issues I figured it was better but more difficult to get running
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endi
as some of these things tend to be
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petermolnar
actually, it's pretty easy to get used to it
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benborges
at first, coming from apache, it might look like, but it's just a matter of getting used to it
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endi
Well I've been meaning to move this to an RPi 2, I'm sure it could benefit from the extra resources then maybe I'll repurpose the current Pi for learning nginx :)
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petermolnar
endi some ideas here might help: https://petermolnar.eu/?s=nginx
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endi
I've amassed more than a handful now I need to build them a server cabinet
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endi
cool thank you :)
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endi
awesome a curated nginx repo :D good first bookmark in nginx/
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cweiske
petermolnar, why don't you link the bookmarks in the list page?
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cweiske
I always have to go to the detail page to be able to click on the bookmark url
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petermolnar
I'm not entirely sure; I'll take a look at the search page template, I guess the markdown formatting is not applied for some unknown reasons
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endi
Good post. I personally really like Google+ but I hate that they've been so closed.
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@endi
For me, it's Google+ I'd like to see open up. Good thoughts on #indieweb by @kevinmarks https://social.andrejstefanovski.com/s/5jV2w
(twitter.com/_/status/601722129537757184)
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endi
O_O do those always post here lol
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petermolnar
Loqi is our own little twitter crawler, so whoever dares to mention indieweb, they'll probably get caught in Loqi's web
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endi
ah nice :)
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@dkreuz
No problem to run #Twisted on @uberspace. The first step for my #indieweb implementation is done.
(twitter.com/_/status/601733977972592640)
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Vendan
personally, I like lighttpd, but it's about on par with nginix
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petermolnar
I tried light, back in the days when it had some terrible memory leaks
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petermolnar
I guess it's better now
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Vendan
I'm not really doing any kind of load on my server, but I can pump 10000 requests through it without affecting memory usage, so probably
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Vendan
biggest issue is just don't send large files over fcgi
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GWG
Good morning
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GWG
I still haven't gotten to breakfast actually.
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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acegiak
so I keep having this issue where I want to reply to one of kylewm's replies to my post but I'm not sure what's the best way to do that
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Loqi
acegiak: GWG left you a message 1 day, 11 hours ago: I am thinking of moving the response back to the content block. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-20/line/1432179543413
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Loqi
acegiak: kylewm left you a message on 5/21 at 9:16am: acegiak.net looks down to me http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-21/line/1432224993188
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acegiak
cause i want to do my reply as a reply post not as just as a comment on my system
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acegiak
but then I want it to show up in the comments post in my original post...
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acegiak
kylewm: yeah, there was a power outage on my server last night
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acegiak
GWG: why?
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acegiak
!tell GWG the post context is not part of the post content?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: acegiak: in-reply-to both kyle's reply and your original post?
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: that's what bridgy does
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acegiak
snarfed, oh yeah that works!
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acegiak
it doesn't exactly make it easy to piece together the comment tree at my end but I think that's a bridge for crossing later
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acegiak
just displaying a list of all the comments as a thread works for now
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lancey.space
edited /User:Lancey.space (+547) "Updated to show some more info about my site"
(view diff)
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: yup. nested comments... meh
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@agquarx
IndieWebCamp: free your web content from corporate tyranny! https://indiewebcamp.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/601778732404211712)
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aaronpk
funny, I got a webmention from leo's Known site with a fragment in the url http://aaronparecki.com/webmention/1o3kKBo7
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@jevdemon
Brilliant post explaining Indieweb and why Medium is one of many silos that wants your content. Nice job @kevinmarks!
(twitter.com/_/status/601792508780089344)
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petermolnar
!tell kevinmarks the internet lack the "explore", "discover", "recommended" & similar tabs on it's own; how could those be replaced, those, present in silos?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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oddvar
well the point is you could use an open, decentralised protocol to share this data
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oddvar
rather than let it live in a single silo
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oddvar
I work on matrix.org so am biased, but you could use anything that's similar
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petermolnar
oddvar I've been asking this question for a long time now, and as far as I'm aware, there is no tool for this - yet.
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aaronpk
explore => yahoo
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aaronpk
discover => google
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aaronpk
recommended => advertising
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benborges
there should be a way to interconnect indieweb instances and then have a internal self hosted way to explore/discover/recommend content
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oddvar
peter: but that's just functionality. the point here (in my humble opinion) is where the data belongs
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oddvar
then anyone could build that functionality on top (like ben says)
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petermolnar
oddvar there is no such thing as just functionality; functionality is everything for the end user
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petermolnar
"then anyone could build that functionality on top", HOW? :)
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benborges
data should belong where it's created: in our self hosted instances
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oddvar
and medium.com could be that client with that functionality
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oddvar
but the data is still open and free
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GWG
acegiak: Right now, it isn't. But looking at it, that is only really an issue for replies.
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Loqi
GWG: acegiak left you a message 2 hours, 20 minutes ago: the post context is not part of the post content? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432307936954
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kylewm
!tell cweiske you were right, it's because there is no link rel="self"
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks_
Gillmor Gang time
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Loqi
KevinMarks_: petermolnar left you a message 2 hours, 55 minutes ago: the internet lack the "explore", "discover", "recommended" & similar tabs on it's own; how could those be replaced, those, present in silos? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432313749064
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KevinMarks_
these are things that make sense in a reader
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kylewm
lol at your avatar KevinMarks_
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KevinMarks_
I should change that back, I was seeing if gifs came through the google resize
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Loqi
I agree
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KevinMarks_
you can do that with kyle's reader
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KevinMarks_
log into http://reader.kylewm.com with your known url, and you get repost buttons on each post
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kylewm
benborges: syndicating a photo from Known to Twitter *does* include the photo
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benborges
well then i have a problem with twitter on my known instance
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benborges
neither twitter links "display" on my instance
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benborges
neither pictures get uploaded to twitter
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benborges
let me retest this out, this is too good
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benborges
kylewm, well can't upload image in the first place : Image wasn't attached.
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kylewm
yeah :/ I saw your GitHub issue
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benborges
and when this photo upload crash, it also interrupt the POSSE to twitter while creating the post
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benborges
so i can't really test but very happy that it's not a wish anymore :)
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kylewm
benborges: if you have access to the error log that would be very helpful in debugging the issue
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benborges
of course i can have access
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benborges
kylewm, is there a place i should look or is this error on the system logs ?
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benborges
it's nginx, i know where to look then
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benborges
kylewm, i think this will definitely help : http://pastebin.com/HxGi8VbB
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benborges
seems to be a permission problem ?
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benborges
but it's strange because previously i never had problem uploading pictures
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benborges
previous posts have pictures
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benborges
going to put this error log in the github issue thread
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kylewm
hmm, maybe the path to your Uploads folder changed in config.ini?
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benborges
hmm lemme have a look where it's poiting
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benborges
put all the necessary info into here : https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/895#issuecomment-104762825
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benborges
kylewm, it seems to me that Known can't write to one of the subfolders it uses to structure the uploads ?
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kylewm
hmm yes, that seems to be the case
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benborges
these folder names are created by known : 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f
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benborges
this is the sub folders i have, how can i make sure all these folders are owned by www-data and that it can write into it ?
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benborges
ls -l tell me they are already owned by www-data
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benborges
but they dont have the same permission from what i can see
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kylewm
benborges: is the group also www-data?
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kylewm
and what is the permission on the subfolders?
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benborges
yes group is www-data
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benborges
sub folders permission where wrong for some reason
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tantek
good afternoon #indiewebcamp!
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tantek
catches up on today's logs
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tantek
!spammer ianhsuth
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Loqi
Got it! There are now 41 spammers blacklisted
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benborges
just gave chmod -R 666 to the Upload folder
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benborges
perms are now like this : drw-rwSrw- 6 www-data www-data
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kylewm
cool, hopefully that should fix it?
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benborges
let's try
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tantek
!tell kylewm,cweiske re: rel=self required by Woodwind - I recall a conversation with aaronpk where we concluded that if there is no rel=self, that implied rel=self to the page itself was a good way of handling that, to make the common case even easier for publishers.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
oh yeah I remember that... we never captured that on the wiki or anything
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benborges
kylewm, Image wasn't attached.
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benborges
same point
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tantek
aaronpk - do you remember when we discussed it in IRC?
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aaronpk
no idea!
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tantek
and, upon latter reflection, do you still think it's a good idea?
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aaronpk
march 18th
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tantek
what is Keyring Social Importers?
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tantek
what is Percona?
#
tantek
what is Yunohost?
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tantek
what is gentoo?
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aaronpk
i keep reading that as y u no host?
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tantek
aaronpk: hah that's funny
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kylewm
benborges: too bad, thank you for providing all the log info and stuff, hopefully Known people will be able to help on that github issue
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Loqi
kylewm: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: re: rel=self required by Woodwind - I recall a conversation with aaronpk where we concluded that if there is no rel=self, that implied rel=self to the page itself was a good way of handling that, to make the common case even easier for publishers. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432328006141
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tantek
what is Twisted?
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tantek
what is lighttpd?
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tantek
oh I thought I created that one a while ago
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KevinMarks_
Twisted is a networking library for python. see https://twistedmatrix.com
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loqi.me
created /Twisted (+100) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432328236794 and dfn added by KevinMarks_"
(view diff)
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Vendan
Lighttpd is a very light, event based web server. See http://www.lighttpd.net/
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loqi.me
created /Lighttpd (+106) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432328250585 and dfn added by Vendan"
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tantek
Vendan - is Lighttpd the same as lightspeed? http://www.litespeedtech.com/
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Vendan
nope, lighttpd is free and open source
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tantek.com
edited /lightspeed (+27) "fix name in text"
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tantek.com
edited /LiteSpeed (+30) "expand dfn, see also here"
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tantek.com
edited /lightspeed (-171) "r"
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Vendan
lol, per core licenses
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Vendan
that's hilarious
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tantek
Vendan - "LiteSpeed Open Source Edition / OpenLiteSpeed is a high-performance, open source alternative to Apache that retains many Apache-compatible features." from http://www.litespeedtech.com/
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Vendan
and yet, you don't get most of what they tout unless you pay
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Vendan
like the whole "reads apache config files"
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Vendan
or mod_security
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tantek.com
edited /LiteSpeed (+99) "note commercial, OSS version"
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tantek.com
edited /OpenLiteSpeed (+156) "issues"
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andyleap.net
edited /OpenLiteSpeed (+33) "/* lack critical Apache features */"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Apache (+46) "more see also"
(view diff)
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kylewm
oh wow, looking at old issues, https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/issues/7 talks about abstractin Publisher -> Hub as a new document
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Vendan
just please, never allow G-Wan on the wiki
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tantek
who is G-Wan?
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Vendan
not really a who, but a what
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kylewm
don't do it.
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Vendan
it's a "application server" that is absolutely insane
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tantek.com
edited /Varnish (-74) "local link to webserver softwares"
(view diff)
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tantek
so I should't ask what is?
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Vendan
"beats" everything else in horribly inaccurate benchmarks, and the main author is paranoid to the point of thinking other web server authors are out to get him
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benborges
why litespeed if we have nginx-phpfpm ?
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tantek
benborges: some apache compat
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tantek
e.g. my webhost switched me from apache to litespeed (only a couple of things broke)
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tantek
and I have htaccess files with mod_rewrite etc.
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tantek.com
created /lighttpd (+22) "r"
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aaronpk
just moved a site from apache to nginx and had to rewrite all the rewrite rules and move them out of the htaccess file into nginx config... was not fun
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kylewm
I find the nginx equivalent of rewrites to be much more intuitive though, if you are starting from scratch
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kylewm
but yeah, porting sucks
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Vendan
I like lighttpd's better then apache's myself, seems like it has more power, and so much of it is just regexs
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Vendan
but I end up doing almost everything just in golang, so it doesn't really make a difference
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tantek
!tell petermolnar what are the "explore", "discover", "recommended" & similar tabs that you're referring to? Is this on Medium? Could you make/upload a screenshot to /Medium if so?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
has caught up on logs
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tantek
!tell petermolnar The general idea is, if you have silo-feature-envy: 1. take explanatory screenshots of the feature, 2. upload to the wiki, 3. document it in a /silo_name#Features section - that way we have something concrete (in time and URL space) to refer to to start mocking up indieweb versions.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
Indie inline /reader request for /Known : "another wish would be to integrate the RSS Feed reader with Known, so i could switch from getting the news, to disseminating them from the same instance." http://1-m.cc/2015/throwing-ideas-in-the-wind-for-future-reference-indieweb-withknown
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kylewm
so about rel=self, a site that publishes with PuSH MUST include rel=self links, but if they don't, Woodwind as a subscriber could still fall back to just whatever the current URL is right?
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gRegorLove
I'm actually a bit impressed with GoDaddy control panel improvements. It looks more modern and isn't as confusing.
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gRegorLove
I still wouldn't recommend them.
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gRegorLove
What is GoDaddy?
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loqi.me
created /GoDaddy (+56) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-22/line/1432330263670 and dfn added by gRegorLove"
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tantek
kylewm: I understand the current MUST include rel=self link requirement, I'm suggesting relaxing that to a SHOULD to make the common "same page" case even less work for publishers.
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tantek
50% less markup work :P
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kylewm
tantek: I re-read the irc logs that aaronpk linked to and was convinced (again) that MUST for rel=self is a good idea
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aaronpk
kylewm: i think the hub has to agree on the missing rel=self too
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tantek
why kylewm? can you provide a counter-argument to my point simpler for publishers? (which is one of the stated design goals for PuSH)
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aaronpk
regardless of the outcome, it sounds like it would bea good idea to document this as an FAQ
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kylewm
tantek: yes, "<julien51> the reason for specifying the self is because we will only get pings for a specific url from the publishers" ... even if the same resource is served at http, https, /, and /index.html, only one of those URls actually works as the push topic
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kylewm
it's a good sanity check that makes sure the hub and subscriber are talking about the exact same URL
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kylewm
and not that much more work, since you already have to add a Link header or <link> element, adding another one isn't 100% more work :P
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tantek
kylewm: I didn't find that anywhere in the logs that aaronpk linked
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tantek
kylewm: no that argument doesn't hold water - OpenID thought the same thing (what's the big deal about requiring two <link> tags? and people got it wrong. it was fragile and dumb)
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tantek
or rather, expereince has shown that requiring another Link header causes fragility and brokenness
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tantek
and an unnecessary barrier
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aaronpk
oh man i didn't even think about the parallels to openid
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tantek
and frankly it's just bad design to require two things of the publisher when one will do
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kylewm
this discussion is in the first screen of the logs aaron linked to: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-03-20#t1426876441654
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tantek
this is how complex RDF crap gets invented
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tantek
"what's one more @profile @context … etc. attribute they can just copy/paste?"
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tantek
really bad / dumb reasoning
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tantek
however, this "even if the same resource is served at http, https, /, and /index.html, only one of those URls actually works as the push topic" - is an already solved problem
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tantek
search engines have the same problem
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tantek
and previously solved it with rel=canonical
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tantek
thus if that really *is* a problem for PuSH as well, the PuSH should build upon the pre-existing rel=canonical for the page, rather than *require* rel=self
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aaronpk
well that's a thought
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tantek
yes, re-use existing (especially deployed!) just-as-simple building blocks instead of making up your own
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aaronpk
i wonder if that was ever brought up in the development of pubsubhubbub
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tantek
the bar for making up your own has to be reasonably high, that is, provides some obv benefit like less work for the publisher (fewer tags/classes/attributes), or more reliable (e.g. visible data instead of invisible metadata), more open (based on an open standard instead of a proprietary snowflake)
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kylewm
ahh, looks like rel=self comes from Atom
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KevinMarks_
yes, that is an atom thing
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KevinMarks_
so you know where the feed came from
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tantek
yeah, Atom, being XML, has the classic XML maldesign of requiring too much crap and artificial precision from the publisehr
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KevinMarks_
it's a SHOULD in the Atom spec
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tantek
KevinMarks++ well there you have it.
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 112 karma
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@vrypan
@anildash @ev TrackBacks (and now Webmentions) are signs that a service wants to be a good citizen of the web. Where does @Medium stand?
(twitter.com/_/status/601866847093395457)
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aaronpk
i somehow missed that @ev explicitly mentioned trackbacks in that post
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kylewm
so but for back-compat with PuSH 0.3 and XML feeds, does that mean it has to be rel=self?
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aaronpk
push 0.3 only works with xml feeds, so yes?
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KevinMarks_
I quoted it…
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tantek
the point is, make rel=self a SHOULD (not a MUST), then in its absence, consuming code MUST fallback to rel=canonical, and absent that, MUST fallback to the URL itself that they retrieved to discover the hub in the first place
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@ow
@anildash @ev trackbacks always had awesome potential but such a horrible implementation.Highlights + responses make me so jealous using WP.
(twitter.com/_/status/601752444759072769)
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tantek
what is a highlight?
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tantek
what are highlights?
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tantek
KevinMarks - have at it ^^^
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tantek
(since you know what existing technology is going to be suggested for that ;) )
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aaronpk
tantek: maybe file an issue on the 0.4 spec to suggest that?
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tantek
aaronpk - happy to do so - figured I'd see if there was at least a consensus here
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aaronpk
i think that makes sense. rel=self -> rel=canonical -> URL
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tantek
that is, if I can't reasonably convince you and kylewm then it's probably not worth trying to push for a spec change
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: fragmentioned bookmarks can be highlights
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tantek
and on that note, I'm changing locations.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I expect to see you mockup a UI for highlights of your posts that accept marginalia comments :)
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KartikPrabhu
oh noes! :P
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tantek
perhaps in addition to being able to /like, /repost, and /quote a fragment/paragraph
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tantek
(we did chat about that before right, like months ago?)
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KartikPrabhu
yes. And I haven;t thought of a good way to do likes on paragraphs
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aaronpk
to show them?
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tantek
what do you mean by do? the presentation?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek yeah presentation. I haven't found one that I'd like
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aaronpk
how about the kindle presentation?
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KartikPrabhu
and highlights are trickier because they are phrase-level by necessity which fragmention.js does not yet handle
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aaronpk
it's not necessarily "likes" but i think basically the same mechanism
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: ooo I haven't seen Kindle at all any screenshots?
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tantek
if so, one line facepile (of mini-faces, like 1em tall, sparkline style) by default with a "…" ellipsis link that wen clicked expands and shows the rest of the facepile, just like a marginalia comment would
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tantek
s/wen/when
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: if so, one line facepile (of mini-faces, like 1em tall, sparkline style) by default with a "…" ellipsis link that when clicked expands and shows the rest of the facepile, just like a marginalia comment would
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KevinMarks_
fragmention.js would need to inject markup into the page for the highlight
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ : yes
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aaronpk
ah yeah showing facepiles on paragraphs is different story
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KartikPrabhu
actually marginalia.js should do that since it moves around markup anyway
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KartikPrabhu
tantek yes your presentation idea is the one I have settled on so far
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: like this: ❤ 👩👦👱👧👵…
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KartikPrabhu
hey everybody want to sent me fragmentioned likes so I can mockup fragmentioned likes :D
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KartikPrabhu
s/sent/send
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu meant to say: hey everybody want to send me fragmentioned likes so I can mockup fragmentioned likes :D
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KevinMarks_
any particular page?
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tantek
KevinMarks: the usual :) what is marginalia?
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Loqi
Marginalia are interactions or responses to arbitrary parts of a post, in contrast to a traditional comment which refers to the entire post https://indiewebcamp.com/marginalia
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KevinMarks_
Ev: "you can incorporate anything from outside as well as anything else can incorporate anything from outside. i.e., links (and embeds). open to more suggestions on how"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: and for reposts: ♺ 👨👸👲👴👳…
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KartikPrabhu
I don't understand that sentence ^^
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KevinMarks_
it's a reply to Dylan asking for medium to be less of a silo
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: scratch that - a repost of a paragraph is an unnecessary new concept - that's called a /quote normally
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yeah :)
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tantek
so a facepile for quotes of a paragraph could look like: “” 👨👸👲👴👳…
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KartikPrabhu
ooo I should make my marginalia link able
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tantek
for everyone who's quoted a paragraph
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post-by-email
uploaded /File:20150522-220410.jpg "Uploaded via email by Aaron Parecki <aar*@*recki.com>"
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: ^^
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KevinMarks_
at what point is quoting a paragraph not a highlight?
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tantek
aaronpk, KevinMarks any photos from HWC PDX, SF this week? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-05-20-homebrew-website-club#Photos
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KevinMarks_
(I do a lot of tweets that are in effect pull quotes)
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KevinMarks_
SF was only 3 of us and we didn't do a photo. oops
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aaronpk
pdx was 2 and no photo
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tantek
KevinMarks: that didn't stop us in NYC :P
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tantek
always take a photo! it's ok if there's only 2-3 of you.
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KevinMarks_
I actually got someone to come using willsomeone, that was funny
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: I am confused about how to create a good fragment for the comments. I don't want to use random letters and numbers like Medium
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KartikPrabhu
maybe use some encoded form of the url....?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: the ❤ and “” "labels" in the above mockups can also be clickable 'webaction buttons to like / quote that paragraph as well!
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KevinMarks_
would a fragmention of the comment work?
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KevinMarks_
ie would that cause it to expand?
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ : not at the moment. that should also happen :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: use "cISODateTimeInSeconds" until you receive two comments in the same second.
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KartikPrabhu
I have to rethink this marginalia.js so that I don't break linking
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tantek
as the id/fragement
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tantek
c for comment
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: hmmm
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KevinMarks_
I noticed it doesn't expand <details> either
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tantek
where ISODateTimeInSeconds just comes from the time received of the webmention that you've stored
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ yeas because fragmention does not set any sort of focus on the element
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tantek
so you're not having to makeup yet-another-random-id-in-a-databse
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KevinMarks_
I like your link creator there
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KevinMarks_
could it add a micropub post link?
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KevinMarks_
ah, ti worked finally
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KevinMarks_
I think known was glitching
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KevinMarks_
hm, also double-posted to twitter
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KevinMarks_
I'm trying a thing here - what if a fragmention got changed into a blockquote by auto_link?
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tantek
KevinMarks: client or serverside? ;)
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KevinMarks_
serverside makes more sense
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tantek
are you saying turn the *text* in a fragmention into a blockquote? algorithmically - no actual retrieval of the URL?
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tantek
interesting
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tantek
not all fragmentions are quotes
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tantek
e.g. all the comment in-reply-to fragmentions already out there
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tantek
they are not quotes
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tantek
or were you thinking they *could* be inline quotes inside a reply-context of the in-reply-to?
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KevinMarks_
I'm thinking how could we do something like twitter's inlining of a tweet without having to fetch it
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KartikPrabhu
barnabywalters did suggest using fragmentions on the server-side for reply-contextx
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: reply-context is for users, not servers
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tantek
perhaps he meant for in-reply-to ?
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KartikPrabhu
no. i mean, if I put a fragmention in an "in-reply-to" or "like-of" my site will go retrieve that part of the original post to display in reply-context
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KevinMarks_
right, that is in effect what I mena
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ : if I do someday allow logging in to my site, I could add micropub posting to the fragmention-UI stuff
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KevinMarks_
if I have <a><blockquote> how do I get rid of the text decoration in css? if I target the blockquote it still has it from the a
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ben_thatmustbeme
Even if you do a> blockquote
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gRegorLove
a+blockquote { text-decoration: none; } I think?
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_ sounds like CSS specificity is getting you. both suggestions by ben_thatmustbeme and gRegorLove should work
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KevinMarks_
I can override color but not text-decoration
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KevinMarks_
let me push it
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KevinMarks_
maybe not, it was being a bit temperamental
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KevinMarks_
so, that inlined quote
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KartikPrabhu
the trouble seems to be that in your CSS a does not have a text-decoration, the browser is default styling it
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KevinMarks_
right, I want to override it just for that
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KevinMarks_
maybe I need a style on the a
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KartikPrabhu
yeah if you do put a text-decoration: underline on the a and then override it, it works
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KartikPrabhu
that is weird behaviour from Firefox
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KevinMarks_
it's consistent in chrome and safari too
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KartikPrabhu
yeah and Chrome
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KartikPrabhu
I thought page CSS always overrides browser defaults
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KartikPrabhu
strange, even !important does not over ride it!!
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KevinMarks_
blames tantek ;)
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KevinMarks_
as he was at CSS WG this week
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tantek
multiple problems
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tantek
can't depend on <blockquote> inside <a> because of legacy HTML embedding nonsense (same as div inside p problem)