#indiewebcamp 2015-06-02

2015-06-02 UTC
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tantek is spoiled by all our {{kevinmarks}} style user nickname templates on indiewebcamp.com
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tantek it's like @-names but better (h-card included)
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+87) "/* Topics */ indiemark" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+13) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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solson I'm confused about h-card
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KevinMarks what in particular?
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solson I'm trying to indiewebify my wordpress site http://stevenjamesolson.com
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solson Hi Kevin
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solson I just learned about this from TWIT when they mentioned your name
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solson I'm at http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstevenjamesolson.com%2F
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KevinMarks right, what's confusing?
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solson and it is asking me to add a url and email and photo and I am missing something basic, where do I add this stuff?
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KevinMarks are you using the wordpress plgins?
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solson i downloaded the indieweb plugin for wordpress
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solson I've enabled most of them
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KevinMarks GWG and acegiak are the experts there
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tantek yeah I thought the wordpress plugin took care of making your h-card for you
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GWG solson: How can I help?
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KevinMarks looks like there are author hcards on the posts but not a sitewide one
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GWG solson: I am guessing you are using Post Kinds
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solson Trying to setup an h-card
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solson I have the plugin enabled
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solson I have the post kinds plugin enabled
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Loqi slack/dariusdunlap: The way I’ve found to do h-card is as a text widget in the sidebar. There may be something more elegant, but nothing I’ve found built into the plugins I know about. (If there is, I’d love to find out about it) see my site at: <https://darius.dunlaps.net>
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solson At http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstevenjamesolson.com it says "An h-card was found on your site, but it’s not marked up as the representative h-card!"
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Loqi slack/dariusdunlap: Here’s the text from the sidebar wdget I have setup:
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KevinMarks right, it's seeing h-cards in the posts as author
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KevinMarks which is why it just says Steve too
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Loqi slack/dariusdunlap: &lt;div class="h-card vcard"&gt;
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gRegorLove Slack is encoding the HTML. Looks messy
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Loqi slack/dariusdunlap: I’m sure there’s something wrong with that. :wink: but it’s what I’ve got and seems to work.
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solson Thanks guys, I'll keep working on it
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gRegorLove solson: I think if you added a rel=me on the page that points to http://stevenjamesolson.com/author/steve/, then the h-card would work as representative, since it's using rel=author for that URL. I think that's what the Indiewebify message means, and might be the simplest way without adding a widget.
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#10104508630096080 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#10100760138533084 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#10152783886462979 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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GWG Most WordPress themes aren't marked up properly
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tantek GWG, can we document them and submit patches?
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GWG tantek: I have met with resistance upstream
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GWG I was trying to get the ones in core.
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tantek GWG, documenting themes?
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GWG tantek: Getting them to accept patches
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tantek GWG, perhaps start with documenting the themes to be fixed on indiewebcamp.com - then maybe others here can help too
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GWG tantek: Good idea
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GWG I need the help
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tantek we all do - helps to have help no matter what we're working on
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GWG I also have an issue that the only solution I can think of is hacky.
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GWG Or that is how pfefferle described it, but I don't blame him
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gRegorLove I don't think the representative h-card method is hacky. If solson's site is the default theme (looks like it), adding one rel=me to the template should work.
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tantek gRegorLove: any chance we could document that? perhaps on /rel-me#How-to-add-on-WordPress ?
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GWG gRegorLove: I may have a better solution.
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gRegorLove I would need to double check to make sure I'm understanding representative h-card first, but sure.
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gRegorLove A widget may well be easier, since it's in WordPress UI, not editing a PHP file in the theme
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tantek either way - better solution or not - would be helpful to have any solution documented in a findable place like that
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gRegorLove Sure
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tantek or document both solutions
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david.shanske.com edited /rel-me (+147) "/* How to on WordPress */" (view diff)
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GWG I added it last week
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GWG There are two ways included
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GWG Embedding in the head, or a widget.
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gRegorLove GWG: Is that "WordPress Menu" option creating visible rel=me links or <link> elements?
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GWG Visible links.
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GWG The plugin option I suggested has visible links
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GWG And <link> elements.
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gRegorLove GWG: How about adding instructions for the twenty* theme to change rel="author" to rel="me author"?
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gRegorLove As a third option
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GWG gRegorLove: I still have hope to submit PRs for it
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GWG My latest is out
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GWG https://wordpress.org/plugins/bridgy-publish/
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GWG gRegorLove: Re the 201? themes, they are all based on _s. I keep trying to get into that
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gRegorLove 201?
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GWG Twenty-fifteen and its ancestors.
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GWG So, I've been working on a fork of _s.
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GWG I have one. I'm going to be refining it more next.
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gRegorLove I thought twentyfifteen was a default theme, not a child theme.
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GWG It isn't a child.
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GWG _s is a starter theme. It is a barebones theme used to make themes.
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GWG So, having an unstyled marked up theme that people can style is one part of a multi-part plan
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GWG It also means anyone who has a theme can look at the markup and apply it.
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GWG I also have a separate project that does markup as a series of functions someone could add to a theme.
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GWG So, I fiddle with a few things.
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GWG https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/30783#comment:2
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GWG I try everywhere
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Vendan jefflarkin on here in any form?
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Loqi [mention] Jeff Larkin posted 'Implementing an #indieweb CMS 3 min read Every so many month...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com (https://jefflarkin.withknown.com/2015/implementing-an-indieweb-cms)
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gRegorLove GWG: What tantek was suggesting though is instructions for specific WP themes. The twenty* themes will be most common and include author links already, so adding a rel=me to that same URL should make the indiewebify.me test work.
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gRegorLove Presuming it's single-author
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GWG single/multi is an issue for me
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gregorlove.com edited /representative_h-card (+476) "How To Set Up WordPress" (view diff)
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gRegorLove GWG, tantek: For your review^. I just confirmed that works for finding the representative h-card in WP theme Twenty Fifteen.
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gRegorLove Perhaps it should be linked from /rel-me somewhere too.
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gRegorLove !tell solson I think this will help with your representative h-card problem: https://indiewebcamp.com/representative_h-card#How_To_Set_Up_WordPress
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gregorlove.com edited /representative_h-card (+91) "/* How To Set Up WordPress */ confirmed twentyfourteen is the same" (view diff)
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp
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tantek gRegorLove: that looks like a good start
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tantek though now it makes me wonder about the backcompat hCard they're using
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tantek that is the class="url fn n" - I wonder if that should be just class="url fn" - do they have "given-name" or "family-name" on elements inside?
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GWG tantek: They do not necessarily.
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tantek without given-name or family-name or one of the other n subproperties, the "n" there can cause an error - it's why we dropped in (and subproperties) in microformats 2
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GWG tantek: I don't know how to overcome the inertia in WordPress.
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tantek GWG, doing as you are doing - trying multiple approaches, multiple projects, plugins, themes.
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tantek the more that each of those produces some successes, the greater the chance the others can and will change as well
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tantek I'm working on automatic sending of webmentions for reply-to links
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tantek I have my code written to do it explicitly after I've POSSEd and recorded the syndication link, per: http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention#POSSE_or_Send_Webmentions_First
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tantek but now I'm wondering if I should send PuSH notifications first, or webmentions to the in-reply-to link
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tantek anybody here have any particular opinions on whether you should PuSH notify your hub first or send webmentions to the links in your post first?
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tantek I'm leaning towards sending a PuSH notification first before webmentions to in-reply-to links but I don't have a specific reason for it
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tantek maybe to prefer readers that have subscribed to PuSH updates? because they've taken a specific action to indicate their interest in seeing what I've written - vs. sending a webmention to someone who may want them in general but didn't necessarily ask you for a response
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tantek is going to copy paste code rather than deal with another file and namespace
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snarfed boo
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GWG snarfed: Boo?
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snarfed GWG: re tantek
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tantek snarfed: it's only two functions ;)
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GWG snarfed: By the way: https://wordpress.org/plugins/bridgy-publish/
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snarfed tantek: it's only another file :P
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snarfed and especially you, you're such a DRY warrior with everything else
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KartikPrabhu "you're such a DRY warrior" :P lol!
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snarfed GWG: i saw, congrats!
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GWG snarfed: I keep knocking things down another peg
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tantek snarfed: it's code I wrote and shared on github as part of a one-off file anyway - I don't think anyone is using it
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snarfed tantek: eh. you're not going to convince me it's ok, but i can't stop you :P
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tantek snarfed: the publication on github was not in a form I'd want to re-use myself
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tantek I just wasn't ready to call the code yet - it was more of a demonstration about how short such code could be (a couple of functions instead of a a bunch of classes, methods etc.)
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tantek https://github.com/indieweb/link-rel-parser-php/blob/master/src/IndieWeb/link_rel_parser.php
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tantek if this integration works, then I'll get to recast that file as a bit of open source extracted from Falcon, a separable piece others could use (don't want to claim that until I have it live and working for my site)
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@nrburnette RT @FromTheWastes: Bioflash Short Stories by @nrburnette – What are they?... https://fromthewastes11811.wordpress.com/2014/11/01/bioflash-short-stories-by-n-r-burnette-what-are-they/ #amreading #amwriting #indieauth # htt… (twitter.com/_/status/605591048878882817)
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acegiak GWG: I'm modifying my local version of indieweb post kinds so that the metaboxes have ids again so I can get at them easier with jquery
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GWG acegiak: What is the end-game? Is it worth a PR?
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acegiak might be
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GWG What are you planning to do?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "you planning to do" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=you+planning+to+do&summary=prompted+by+GWG+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-01%2Fline%2F1433219780615
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acegiak ids is how my prepop post plugin accesses the fields
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GWG acegiak: But they all have unique labels.
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acegiak using name?
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acegiak just changed
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acegiak echo '<input type="text" name="cite_' . $key . '"';
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acegiak to
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acegiak echo '<input type="text" id="cite_' . $key . '" name="cite_' . $key . '"';
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acegiak and same with the hcard line
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acegiak in class-kind-postmeta.php
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GWG That works.
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GWG acegiak: The goal was to make it easier to add fields.
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tantek neat
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tantek well, no syntax errors, that's a start
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acegiak GWG: yeah, totally makes sense
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GWG acegiak: I want to do more of that
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GWG It makes it easier to edit things
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tantek wow: https://medium.com/@LED_bear/an-apathetic-16-year-old-s-view-on-social-media-8d4b7914f237
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tantek Interviewer: Did you know that Facebook owns Instagram?
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tantek 16 year-old: I did not know that.
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tantek Interviewer: How does that make you feel?
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tantek 16 year-old: …Cheated.
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KartikPrabhu I'll call that a "silopiphany"
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tantek really impressed by how often benwerd posts notes on his own site - feels like stream of conciousness
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@t @benwerd @erinjo also proud of you & @withknown — so much #indieweb & especially user empathy. Keep up the great work! (ttk.me t4bT2) (twitter.com/_/status/605604965566906369)
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tantek well POSSE code still works, but the automated webmention didn't
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tantek hmm - and a manual webmention returns a 400
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tantek makes me wonder if maybe my code is not at fult
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tantek s/fult/fault
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Loqi tantek meant to say: makes me wonder if maybe my code is not at fault
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tantek !tell benwerd tried sending you a webmention from my reply http://tantek.com/2015/152/t2/proud-withknown-indieweb-user-empathy and got a {"error":"target_not_found","error_text":null} - HTTP/1.0 400 Bad Request - but view source on my post and its there!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek ok, time to try a different site
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gRegorLove tantek: The twentyfifteen theme just has: <span class="author vcard"><span class="screen-reader-text">Author </span><a class="url fn n" href="https://twentyfifteendemo.wordpress.com/author/iamtakashi/">Takashi Irie</a></span>
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gRegorLove twentyfourteen is probably the same.
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tantek gRegorLove: huh - in that case the "n" definitely needs removing
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gRegorLove php-mf2 seems to parse it ok. Is it mf1 parsers that it causes problems with?
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tantek !tell benwerd very odd just tried the exactly same manual webmention 25 minutes later, same exact command line, and got a 202 Accepted - again for this reply http://tantek.com/2015/152/t2/proud-withknown-indieweb-user-empathy
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek gRegorLove: yes
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tantek I designed the backcompat handling of hCard to workaround the "n" problem
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tantek that is the mf2 backcompat handling
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tantek ooh just found https://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/07/11/1/indiewebcamp-2015
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tantek anyone have any idea why a webmention curl (to a Known endpoint) would give 400 the first few tries, then 25 minutes later a 202?
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@t going to IndieWebCamp 2015-07-11…12 in Portland! You should too! Choose Portland or Brighton: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (ttk.me t4bT3) (twitter.com/_/status/605614898794491904)
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tantek huh - well that didn't work either but forgot to turn on debugging - apologies if there's duplicates here
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gRegorLove tantek: I don't really know, but I've had webmentions to werd.io return 202 and t hen never show up
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tantek once I got a 202 it showed up
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tantek I just don't know why it got a 400 at first :(
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@LynnMagic this indieweb thing https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (twitter.com/_/status/605616551958429696)
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gRegorLove Hey, cool: https://twitter.com/LynnMagic/status/585783676790706177
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@LynnMagic Current @twitter and @CQT_Quirell side by side comparison: https://twitter.com/LynnMagic/status/585783676790706177/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/585783676790706177)
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gRegorLove And the previous tweet context to that "this indieweb thing" one above is https://twitter.com/LynnMagic/status/605615899475722240
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@LynnMagic I suppose I should go to this @t (twitter.com/_/status/605615899475722240)
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tantek very cool
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tantek trying again with debugging (automated webmention sending)
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@t going to IndieWebCamp 2015-07-11…12 in Portland! You should too! Choose Portland or Brighton: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (ttk.me t4bT3) (twitter.com/_/status/605618357665005568)
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tantek alright, debugging got all the way into the start of head_http_rels so that's where I'll have to pick up tomorrow
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@Brighton_RT RT @t: going to IndieWebCamp 2015-07-11…12 in Portland! You should too! Choose Portland or Brighton: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (ttk.me t4bT3) (twitter.com/_/status/605619444338040832)
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tantek heh
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@t @LynnMagic it would be great to have you @IndieWebCamp. (ttk.me t4bT4) (twitter.com/_/status/605620586681745409)
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kylewm hmm, does Quill require a login with no path?
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Loqi [bridgy] Sage Elliott favorited a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (https://twitter.com/t/status/605618357665005568)
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Loqi [bridgy] Brighton ReTweeter retweeted a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (https://twitter.com/Brighton_RT/status/605619444338040832)
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tantek more debugging in the morning, good night #indiewebcamp
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Loqi night
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pfefferle good morning
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Zegnat mornin’
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pfefferle Zegnat I am using an impressum btw :)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn (+111) "/* History */" (view diff)
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Zegnat pfefferle: cool, let me have a look
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pfefferle Zegnat it is VERY simple http://notizblog.org/kontakt/
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Zegnat Yeah, I see you have foregone the phone number. Any thoughts behind that?
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pfefferle It seems that you don’t need one http://www.internetrecht-rostock.de/impressum-telefonnummer.htm
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Zegnat Interesting. That’s exactly the kind of information I was looking for!
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cweiske but they talk about a contact form
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pfefferle cweiske cweiske http://www.internetrecht-rostock.de/abmahnung-kontaktformular-impressum.htm
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pfefferle opps :)
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pfefferle …or an email address
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KartikPrabhu pfefferle: since this has been discussed a bunch of times now, is it possible to clarify what is and what isn't an Impressum?
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cweiske in germany you're required to have a page with your address on a commercial web site
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pfefferle KartikPrabhu I think it is, if you are a company and/or if you sell things, but I have no idea how private persons have to handle it...
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cweiske labeled impressum
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KartikPrabhu maybe give a non-legal explantion at /Impressum ?
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu: I considered compiling a page with information, but I am hesitant to write up anything that others might take as legal advice for starting a website
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KartikPrabhu yes, that is also what I am apprehensive about. But having such "humaised" info would be good from some source
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Zegnat pfefferle: I see you have skipped datenschutz information and the usual external link disclaimer, any thoughts on those?
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Zegnat KartikPrabhu: I can give a wiki page a go by the end of the week, after my exams. Feel free to poke me into action by Saturday. I’ll just write a huge warning at the top of the page about no legal advice and imperfect translations from German and all that
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: yeah I don't really know the policy on the wiki about legal stuff like this. Better to ask tantek or aaronpk
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Zegnat !tell tantek What is the wiki policy on information about legal regulations of certain countries? It seems fair to inform new IndieWeb creators from e.g. Germany about their obligation to publish personal information.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: I appreciate that you brought this point up. Navigating legal regulations seems much more of an obstacle than managing servers and SSLs and all that
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Zegnat Navigating huge piles of paperwork for singular answers is a hobby of mine. I just wish I had picked an easier topic to brush up on my German.
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: do you think that this Impressum thing applies to silo accounts? As in do I have to publish some contact info on my Twitter account or something?
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KartikPrabhu specially if the silo is hosted in some country?
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Zegnat It does. Probably. Unclear.
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Zegnat Facebook did add an option to German based Groups and Pages so people could add Impressum pages there.
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KartikPrabhu i suppose at that point the silo company is liable and not the user but it is a bigger problem from the indieweb
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Zegnat Don’t have a link for that at the ready right now though.
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@michaeldexter RT @t: going to IndieWebCamp 2015-07-11…12 in Portland! You should too! Choose Portland or Brighton: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (ttk.me t4bT3) (twitter.com/_/status/605637099102965760)
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Zegnat That is what I thought odd. I have seen the argument that this isn’t stopping free or anonymous speech because people can post at forums (aka silos) and the only impressum needed there is from the people running the silo. However that seems to clash with Facebook adding n option for users to add impressum pages.
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Zegnat There is a vague divide somewhere in there, but the Gods only know where
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pfefferle Zegnat not really, I had one, but since I removed Google Analytics and similar stuff, I also removed the datenschutz information… I am not sure if they are required…
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Zegnat Yeah, neither am I pfefferle. I saw datenschutz is covered by TMG but its requirement has me scratching my head
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KartikPrabhu legalese--
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Loqi legalese has -1 karma
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Zegnat I think I might have to run my website under il.licit.li instead of licit.li until I figure this all out :p
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Loqi [bridgy] Michael Dexter retweeted a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (https://twitter.com/michaeldexter/status/605637099102965760)
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@kevinmarks @jeffjarvis m'colleagues on #indiewebcamp are worried about the German requirement for an Impressum for their websites and lawyer trolling (twitter.com/_/status/605649409334874114)
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Loqi [mention] http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/07/1436720400 commented '' on a post http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Brighton
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Loqi [mention] http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/06/planning-attend commented '' on a post http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Brighton
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cweiske does someone know how the facebook pgp implementation works?
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cweiske how one links his pgp key?
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cweiske ah. http://images.derstandard.at/2015/06/01/facebook-pgp.jpg
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cweiske are those pgp data then visible on the user's profile?
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kegan I would guess so. You'd need to know *something* from the user, else it's a bit rubbish if you wanted to manually check the message you received is authentic.
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Zegnat It has the same privacy settings as any other field.
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Zegnat You can set it visible for all or just friends.
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Zegnat Let me turn mine public and you can check it, give me a sec
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Zegnat Well, seems like Facebook is having problems, I am getting a 404 when not logged in: https://www.facebook.com/martijnvdven
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Zegnat If anyone wants to confirm my PGP key is visible on Facebook, let me know what you see.'
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petermolnar it is, and I see this: PGP Public Key
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petermolnar 4CEE EF21 BEDA 6393 11CF
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petermolnar 5794 B269 4482 3A6B 4A15
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tommorris Zegnat: yep, confirm I can see it
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Zegnat That fingerprint matches my local one, petermolnar, so all is good then.
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Zegnat So yeah, cweiske, if you set your key public it becomes visible :)
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Zegnat thanks tommorris
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cweiske I get a 404
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cweiske but I'm not on facebook either
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cweiske thus not logged in
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Zegnat I get 404s too when not logged in. Which is weird, I thought profiles were accessible to non-logged in people too
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cweiske if they are public I think
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petermolnar facebook is heavily on the road to lock down these days
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petermolnar so I'm not surprised
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petermolnar this could be one of the new "features"
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petermolnar like the API changes that broke everything
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Zegnat my profile should be public, I think, but who knows with Facebook’s constant settings changes
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cweiske like twitter's email subscription settings
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Zegnat ugh, yes, I suddenly got an email from Twitter again yesterday, after weeks of nothing. Did Twitter revise some settings?
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cweiske they permanently invent new email notification settings and auto-subscribe you to them
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cweiske then you deactivate it
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cweiske and some weeks later they do it again
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adactio.com edited /Template:Attendee (+24) (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+756) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+268) "/* Organising */" (view diff)
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@jeffjarvis RT @kevinmarks: @jeffjarvis m'colleagues on #indiewebcamp are worried about the German requirement for an Impressum for their websites and … (twitter.com/_/status/605679489771835392)
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@doener_tech RT @kevinmarks: @jeffjarvis m'colleagues on #indiewebcamp are worried about the German requirement for an Impressum for their websites and … (twitter.com/_/status/605679900796841984)
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@Doener RT @kevinmarks: @jeffjarvis m'colleagues on #indiewebcamp are worried about the German requirement for an Impressum for their websites and … (twitter.com/_/status/605679959282188288)
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GWG Good morning
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petermolnar Zegnat I really wonder why facebook is the first to apply gpg by the way; it might as well be a way to sort out all privacy aware users who still have a facebook account
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cweiske because nobody else cared
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Zegnat petermolnar: why would Facebook, a website with an abhorrent “authentic name policy”, set up a .onion address for Tor users? I have long given up trying to understand motives behind social silos.
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petermolnar I was wondering about that too
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petermolnar there is a valid reason: to reach people in countries that banned facebook
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petermolnar but that doesn't fit the 90% approach the marketing
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Zegnat Last week I had one of my Facebook friends be flagged for their name. They were told to show ID to Facebook within 7 days.
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Zegnat Their Facebook name that is now cause to hav them loose social contacts: $firstname $nickname $surname.
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petermolnar that would probably be the situation where I delete my facebook account
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Zegnat A lot of these people don’t really have that choice. I have several friends on Facebook that are only there because there is no other way to stay in the loop on on-campus events, study groups, you name it.
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Zegnat Or they have the choice, (you always have) but Facebook has real benefits for them that are hard to give up on.
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Zegnat What is TMI?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "TMI" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=TMI&summary=prompted+by+Zegnat+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-02%2Fline%2F1433241874789
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petermolnar Zegnat, sorry, but that is a bold lie
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petermolnar for benefitial "friends" there's linkedin
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petermolnar for the rest, there is mail, phone, pubs, meetups, etc.
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petermolnar you're not _forced_ to use facebook
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petermolnar study groups should set up an irc channel or a mailing list; much, much more effective, especially if it's searchable in the archives
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Zegnat I can of course only speak of university campus here in Sweden – I have seen Karlstad’s and Malmö’s up close – and those meetups, parties at local pubs and clubs, student nights out, they are all advertised exclusively on Facebook.
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petermolnar that is fundamentally wrong and flawed :(
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Zegnat You either need someone serving as a proxy, keeping you up-to-date on when the next party is, or you need Facebook
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petermolnar no flyers, no nothing?
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Zegnat I see less and less flyers. Actually, I have been to a Valentine’s Day party that I believe only had 1 flyer total. The flyer was a handwritten A4 put on the door of the appartment building to let people know what floor the party would be on once they got to the building.
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Zegnat I have at least 1 friend who removed their Facebook to later join again, specifically telling me it was impossible for her to keep up with fellow students without Facebook.
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petermolnar why are there no campus-only diaspora* (or similar) hubs?
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Zegnat I think because universities themselves do not want to run them? Some IT-departments might set them up, but I am in the economics department and have never heard of one.
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cweiske maybe there are, and you don't hear about them because they are .. decentralized
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petermolnar cweiske in this case, that decentralization would actually be a benefit not to have outsiders involved
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petermolnar the gigs I used to go to were kind of underground (niche might be a better phrase), and for my surprise, though some of those went over to facebook, many is virtually impossible to find if you don't know exactly which site to look at or where to pick some flyers up
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petermolnar and that is all right
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Zegnat Those might still exist, petermolnar, I am not enough into that scene to speak with authority. Those are not parties I get invited to ;)
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petermolnar when I was attending to uni all the gigs were either "promoted" by posters or it was told from one to another, depending on the size of the gig
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petermolnar and I could not have imagined using facebook for studies with all the incredibly flawed search options instead of a good old mailing list
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Zegnat I can’t remember the last group project I had to do that actually used good old email :(
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cweiske but the good old mailing lists have bad web interfaces
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petermolnar maybe because it's mail? :P
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cweiske petermolnar, how/where do you set up mailing lists?
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cweiske also, which email client do you use that has good search?
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Zegnat Facebook Groups, Skype, Google Docs. That’s how I believe all projects are done at the moment.
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petermolnar a long time ago I ran my own mailman server; I used some google groups but nowadays most of them are dead, that is true
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cweiske I'd like to give my users the ability to create their own lists, with password-protected web interface for searching. web-based setup process, too
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Zegnat Important footnote might be, petermolnar: what did you study? My brother does a web & multimedia study and they use mostly Facebook. I study economics and we use a lot of Skype or in-person meetings to work on projects.
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petermolnar I honestly don't understand what's the benefit of a facebook group over a mailing list
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petermolnar electrical engineering
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Zegnat The benefit is that everyone has Facebook and nobody wants to actually do email on their phones. That’s the feel I get.
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Zegnat This forces the few people without Facebook to get in or go away :(
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petermolnar having a facebook app on your phone, which requires more access than airdroid (remote android managements app) instead of a mail account? that's madness
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Zegnat Tell that to the people who have completely replaced other contact methods with the Facebook Messenger app or WhatsApp
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petermolnar cweiske mailman is stable but that is an old software with hairy bits; there is sympa which I don't really know
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petermolnar Zegnat I'm very close to the point to say that those who are not willing to answer their phone, get together for a drink or reply to an email doesn't worth me having a facebook account just to feel the illusion of staying in touch
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petermolnar but that is me
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petermolnar two things popped into my mind related to the topic: http://saintsal.com/facebook/ and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCDIYvFmgW8
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Zegnat I live in a place that is so much the middle of nowhere that there exists a feature length film about ow much there is nothing here. I am okey with using Facebook if that is required to stay social.
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oddvar Åmål? ;)
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Zegnat You got it oddvar
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oddvar heh
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Zegnat Actually, I live in a smaller village within Åmål municipality. To make matters worse ;)
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LanceyWork i, too, suffered from going to a school where study groups existed only on facebook
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petermolnar Zegnat microblogging and facebook is anything but social according to my thoughts; IRC on the other hand is surprisingly social
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LanceyWork it's more about the network part of social network than the social
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petermolnar ( I feel embarrassingly old at the moment learning in a uni before facebook even existed )
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cweiske :)
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cweiske dito
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petermolnar social network = illusion of being social
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petermolnar like London, illusion of having opportunities ( you just don't have the time to actually do any of them )
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Zegnat like universities, illusion of learning something (you will still have to relearn everything in practice)
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cweiske I was at uni to learn the theoretical background.
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cweiske the practical things were made in the free time
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cweiske like, hacking and learning to program
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petermolnar same here
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cweiske because you seldom learn in a day job how to implement a database management system, and the concepts in the background
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petermolnar oh, than no, I misunderstood; my case was uni gave theoretical knowledge which is not really applicable in real life
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cweiske I'll never implement a RDBMS in real life, too
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cweiske but it's good to know
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cweiske or implement a GIS
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Zegnat I am considering a sabbatical from uni as all this theory on things I will never use has completely demotivated me. I’ll be spending the summer job hunting and if I find something I’ll put the studies on hold.
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cweiske or implement my own GSM network
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petermolnar Zegnat I've learned tonnes of thing I consider useless; however, no learning is ever useless. It may not benefit you for ages, but eventually, they will come in handy at a certain point in your life
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petermolnar that is true for everything
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petermolnar you learn
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Zegnat Oh, I really enjoy learning, I just have no motivation left anymore to sit down and study for exams
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Zegnat I would rather just take a whole year to do some actual original research for my thesis
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GWG pfefferle: Did you happen to think of an alternative solution to my the_content filter thought?
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pfefferle GWG not yet, sorry… worked on some grunt things the last days
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pfefferle GWG have you implemented it on your site?
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pfefferle I mean theme
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petermolnar GWG do you know which wordpress hook is to be used for any save action on published (inc. private, excl. draft) posts?
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pfefferle petermolnar I think it is publish_post
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pfefferle that is what i am using in the pubsubhubbub plugin
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petermolnar is that applied when I make changes to an already published one as well?
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GWG petermolnar: Or transition_post
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pfefferle I think so
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GWG pfefferle: In my _s fork. It will make my theme shortly. Still testing
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pfefferle petermolnar: publish_post is an action triggered whenever a post is published, or if it is edited and the status is changed to publish.
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pfefferle petermolnar https://codex.wordpress.org/Plugin_API/Action_Reference/publish_post
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pfefferle GWG petermolnar the https://codex.wordpress.org/Post_Status_Transitions are only for status changes...
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petermolnar thank you
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petermolnar ( I've decided to make a function that exports posts on the fly to the yaml+markdown Grav accepts, just in case I want a backup of my site as a copyable folder )
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pfefferle that is also what I use in the WebMention plugin and this definitely supports updates
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Loqi gives petermolnar a backup of my site as a copyable folder
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petermolnar thank you, Loqi, but I think you're not that advanced yet
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Loqi yeah!
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pfefferle petermolnar I experimented with something similar: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-uf2-feed
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pfefferle but on the fly
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pfefferle it does not generate static files
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petermolnar I wanted something that's close to plain text and readable even with vim so structured data like that is out of the question :)
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pfefferle ok
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pfefferle GWG a ok, I see https://github.com/dshanske/mf2_s/commit/ac5abe4735d9d6ce4b76de579aba8ae913bddb83
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GWG pfefferle: Next project is a major cleaning up of mf2_s
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Zegnat Does the IndieWeb have a concept of too-much-information? I.e. I see aaronpk does not put his metrics tracking in his main feed. Or is that all arbitrary?
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pfefferle GWG I know, I know… building a functional tool first and then clean up ;)
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GWG pfefferle: I keep refining and improving
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@ricksmithbooks Learn how to publish your PAPERBACK with CreateSpace on Amazon. #selfpub #IndieAuth http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RPP01H0/ref=cm_sw_su_dp (twitter.com/_/status/605706802265788416)
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GWG If you have noticed, I rewrote two of my plugins and just released a Bridgy Publish one
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pfefferle I saw the brid.gy one
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@grigs RT @t: going to IndieWebCamp 2015-07-11…12 in Portland! You should too! Choose Portland or Brighton: https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (ttk.me t4bT3) (twitter.com/_/status/605722390090256384)
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@bufflon indieweb macht mich ganz wuschig. (twitter.com/_/status/605723339563388928)
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Loqi [bridgy] Jason Grigsby, ☁4 retweeted a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (https://twitter.com/grigs/status/605722390090256384)
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rhiaro I think I fixed my microformats
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Loqi [bridgy] Jean M Russell favorited a tweet that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/2015 (https://twitter.com/t/status/605618357665005568)
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snarfed what is itch?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "itch" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=itch&summary=prompted+by+snarfed+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-02%2Fline%2F1433255270128
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snarfed itch is /itches
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loqi.me created /itch (+19) "prompted by snarfed https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-02/line/1433255270128 and dfn added by snarfed" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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joshharrington.co.uk edited /2015/Brighton (+343) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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lancey.space edited /User:Lancey.space (+54) "/* To-do */" (view diff)
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LanceyWork what are itches?
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Loqi Itches, in the context of the indieweb, are individuals's personal sources of annoyances using the web or in particular their own website, that they use to itemize and prioritize what to create, design, build, and improve on their own website, often by first listing such "itches" on a section in their User: https://indiewebcamp.com/itches
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aaronpk sometimes i think it would be fun to run my own GSM network
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aaronpk #indiephone
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raucao well good thing you can :)
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aaronpk don't tempt me
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kylewm hi aaronpk! two indieauth questions for you, 1) does the auth endpoint have to return a 200 with no arguments? 2) does Quill require logins to be a domain with no path?
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aaronpk hi!
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aaronpk 1) no it should reutrn 400, but the HTTP client on indieauth.com is improperly treating that as an error (thanks ruby)
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aaronpk 2) quill requires root domains with no path, but i could probably change that
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kylewm ok cool, I was trying to log into Quill with http://known.kylewm.com/profile/kylewm
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kylewm for what it's worth
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aaronpk this is one of the frustrating things about mixing HTTP codes with application logic...
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aaronpk the Mechanize gem raises an exception if a 4xx code is returned, so then I don't get access to the HTTP headers of the request
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aaronpk >:(
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kylewm ew, yeah that's annoying
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kylewm aaronpk: I fixed my plugin so that it returns 200 from a HEAD request, and indieauth.com is happy now
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kylewm well, at least it got me to the next error :)
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aaronpk haha cool
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Loqi nice
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fkooman kylewm, indieauth.com needs to be fixed... there is an issue already :)
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fkooman https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/93
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@ricksmithbooks Publish your printed book on Amazon with this step-by-step guide. #selfpub #IndieAuth http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00RPP01H0/ref=cm_sw_su_dp (twitter.com/_/status/605772244384542720)
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Loqi slack/snarfed: just fyi aaronpk, looks like the indieauth changes may have broken indienews login
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Loqi slack/snarfed: (sorry for piling on :P)
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aaronpk ohh hmm
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aaronpk it's okay, that's what i get for doing major changes :)
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aaronpk that's also partly bad design on indienews, it just redirects to the home page on errors instead of telling you waht actually went wrong
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi tantek: Zegnat left you a message 9 hours, 28 minutes ago: What is the wiki policy on information about legal regulations of certain countries? It seems fair to inform new IndieWeb creators from e.g. Germany about their obligation to publish personal information. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-02/line/1433229422259
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tantek reminder for those of you in W3C Social Web WG - telcon in ~15min.
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aaronpk snarfed: login works again, not quite sure what was wrong tho
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snarfed aaronpk: thanks! heh, i know the feeling
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tantek !tell Zegnat we try to avoid any particular legal advice on the wiki. However, if you want to create purely factual (with citations) summaries of things that affect indieweb sites, or that indieweb sites have examples of, go right ahead. Perhaps link to Wikipedia for such things.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed aaronpk: interesting, i now see "indieauth.com/auth / This auth server cannot be used to authenticate to itself" as one of my auth providers
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snarfed is that expected?
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aaronpk yeah, it's cause you delegated to indieauth.com as your authorization endpoint
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aaronpk but in this case, you're logging in to a site that uses indieauth.com to handle its logins
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snarfed ah
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snarfed right
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aaronpk part of the dual-purpose-of-indieauth.com problem :)
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snarfed whee
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kylewm can you add ", silly" on the end of that error message?
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aaronpk the thing is, it actually does work to use it to log in to itself...
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snarfed hey all, i've posted a straw man design for a new, offline-only mobile micropub client: https://snarfed.org/posting-to-the-indieweb-from-your-phone
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snarfed feedback is welcome!
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snarfed implementors too :P
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tantek whoa
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tantek offline *only* ?!?
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tantek reads
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snarfed er sorry
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snarfed offline-first
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snarfed offline only would be...odd
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tantek snarfed: great post
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snarfed tantek: thanks!
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tantek offline first post authoring is definitely a massive pain point / itch of mine, even with existing silos (e.g. Swarm / Foursquare perhaps the most)
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aaronpk instagram is a great positive example of offline support
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tantek 1. offline checkins, 2. offline photo posting
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snarfed tantek: i know very little about modern frontend development, so feel free to correct any misconceptions in the post
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snarfed aaronpk: really? interesting
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tantek aaronpk: disagree - IG barely works on in some rare circumstances offline
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tantek also IG loses data when you switch apps
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aaronpk what? no..you can post photos and they get queued up
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tantek e.g. when it gets "booted"
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aaronpk and then when you have network again it'll let you retry posting
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tantek aaronpk: no, if you're in the middle of posting a photo, and say switch apps to the browser to look something up, come back, oh sorry, everything is thrown away, start over
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tantek totally sucks
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aaronpk that's a different problem, has nothing to do with offline
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tantek also IG doesn't have offline way to tag location
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tantek or people
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tantek so no, IG offline support sucks
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tantek if I could use IG for offline checkins I would
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aaronpk ah yeah, doesn't cache the people/places lists for offline
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bear pardon a little bit of "shilling" - our company is putting on the Realtime Conference again and tickets are now on sale -- http://realtimeconf.com
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bear (that's the only time i'll mention it)
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aaronpk realtimeconf is great!
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bear while this one may not be as over-the-top as the others, it will be more focused on realtime tech - xmpp, webrtc, websockets
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aaronpk think there's room for a talk about pubsubhubbub?
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aaronpk it's not quite as realtime as these other things, but more realtime than polling!
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bear I am not on that part of the team, but I personally think yes
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aaronpk i don't know if i actually have a talk in me, but i might by october
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tantek bear - if there are indieweb related talks or sessions, please feel free to add it /events, explicitly listing the times/places of the indieweb related taslk / sessions
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LanceyWork hey kylewm, i noticed today that redwind does syndication for drafts, ie, if you check the "share on twitter" button and save a post as a draft, it'll tweet it out with the draft link. is that behavior intended?
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bear @tantek yep, I will keep an eye on that
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tantek we can use /events to list all sorts of indieweb related events, whether organized by this community or others
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kylewm LanceyWork: um.. good question. I never considered syndicating a draft, so definitely not intended. it should probably flash a message saying that it is cowardly refusing to do that
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tantek what is offline?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "offline" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=offline&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-02%2Fline%2F1433267348098
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tantek ^^^ snarfed perhaps for all your good working and thinking, you could stub this? :)
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rhiaro I think I fixed my microformats today. They look okay from parser output. I even added top level h-* to body tag. If anyone has time to take a look I'd appreciate it any feedback
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LanceyWork a dialog box sounds more elegant
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snarfed tantek: sure! added to my todo list
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tantek thanks much snarfed - I really like the approach you're taking
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snarfed thanks!
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tantek rhiaro: what does indiewebify.me say?
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rhiaro tantek: seems fine, except apparently having an author for a feed is not picked up as the author for the posts inside the feed. Is that expected behaviour?
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tantek I think indiewebify.me does not properly implement /authorship
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tantek we need a /authorship checker
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rhiaro aha
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kylewm snarfed: great post! for bullet point two (crawling your site's feeds), are you thinking of a way to get around CORS?
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snarfed kylewm: no clue
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snarfed same problem w/micropub POSTs, right?
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kylewm I guess that's true
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snarfed if your site sets Access-Control-Allow-Origin, is that good enough?
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kylewm sounds plausible, but i'm quickly out of my depth on the topic
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snarfed me too
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kylewm.com edited /app (+153) "/* Articles */ add benwerd's 10 things to consider about the future of web applications" (view diff)
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snarfed kylewm: updated, thanks. https://snarfed.org/posting-to-the-indieweb-from-your-phone#CORS
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tantek welcome andicascadesf !
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andicascadesf thank you @tantek
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tantek hope you can make it tomorrow night to HWC SF!
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andicascadesf If I stop by it will only be for a few
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andicascadesf i was planning to attend but was just invited to be interviewed on a podcast and i have to be there at 7!
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andicascadesf wahh
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tantek welcome LCyrin!
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bear snarfed, kylewm -- I always run my code thru http://client.cors-api.appspot.com/client to make sure I have the headers set properly
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kylewm bear++ cool, bookmarking
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Loqi bear has 63 karma
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bear and this page has a good list of resources - http://enable-cors.org/resources.html
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tantek what is CORS?
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Loqi CORS is an acronym for "cross-origin resource sharing," a mechanism for allowing browsers to make JavaScript requests to fetch resources from other domains https://indiewebcamp.com/CORS
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bear i'll add them to that page
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tantek thanks!
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bear.im edited /CORS (+159) "add more resource links" (view diff)
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Zegnat what is a website?
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Loqi Zegnat: tantek left you a message 2 hours ago: we try to avoid any particular legal advice on the wiki. However, if you want to create purely factual (with citations) summaries of things that affect indieweb sites, or that indieweb sites have examples of, go right ahead. Perhaps link to Wikipedia for such things. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-02/line/1433263576344
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "website" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=website&summary=prompted+by+Zegnat+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-02%2Fline%2F1433270804284
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cweiske aaronpk, did you already have time to look into that "horribly wrong" error on indieauth?
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aaronpk i'll need to watch logs while you try it again
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cweiske ok
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cweiske then let's go
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aaronpk k. can you try on https://aaronpk.indieauth.com so i know which machine you're hitting?
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cweiske done
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aaronpk there it is
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aaronpk heh i think i need to make a stupid dumb auth server to debug this well
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aaronpk cweiske: do you have a cookie blocker or anything?
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cweiske µblock
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cweiske but that's an adblocker
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aaronpk is it blocking cookies from indieauth.com by chance?
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cweiske I'll try chromium instead of firefox
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cweiske still a problem
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cweiske no adblocker this time
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aaronpk yeah it's like there just isn't any session data coming back
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cweiske my browser definitely sends cookie data to the /redirect url
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cweiske aaronpk, http://p.cweiske.de/198/raw/phork0.txt
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cweiske that's the cookies send to https://indieauth.com/auth/indieauth/redirect
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cweiske aaronpk, should the state parameter be empty?
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cweiske https://indieauth.com/auth/indieauth/redirect?code=PMvf2dOHkwEvvmL4O5VEDLo5sxAGeArRDIjIoANWzFw%3D&me=http%3A%2F%2Fcweiske.de%2F&state=
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aaronpk oh i should probably be checking that
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aaronpk s/checking/setting and checking
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: oh i should probably be setting and checking that
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aaronpk well hmm, my own auth endpoint is rejecting the requests now, not sure why
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aaronpk apparently this was not prime time :)
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aaronpk i'll have to take a look at this again later. not sure what went wrong, cause it was working for me 2 weeks ago! must have broke something in the refactoring
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aaronpk just found trakt.tv and notes that they use the term "scrobble" when talking about movies and TV as well
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aaronpk oh funny, they use both "scrobble" and "checkin". scrobbling refers to devices automatically posting when media is played, and checkin refers to the process of manually reporting what you're watching
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#434567790030616 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#10153133835379388 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#10105259062678099 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#10152788511654262 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/674781485961103#10202851257635434 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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bret.io edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+11) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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gRegorLove GetGlue called them checkins as well, I believe (consuming tv, music)
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tantek aaronpk: do you manually POSSE your indie events to Calagator or does /p3k (semi-)automatically POSSE to Calagator? does Calagator have an API that we could add support for in Bridgy Publish?
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tantek what is Calagator?
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Loqi Calagator is an event hosting silo and aggregator that supports importing events marked up with hCalendar https://indiewebcamp.com/Calagator
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tantek hey is anyone else using https://github.com/indieweb/link-rel-parser-php/blob/master/src/IndieWeb/link_rel_parser.php on their own site? (I didn't think so, but figured I'd ask)
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aaronpk totally manual
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aaronpk although calagator has really good event "cloning" so it's easy for recurring events
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tantek they used to have an "import from hCalendar" feature somewhere
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aaronpk oh yeah they still have that i think
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tantek I'm wondering if we could get calagator to support POSSE publishing via webmention instead
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aaronpk instead? sounds like webmention might be the notification method to trigger the h-event import?
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aaronpk http://calagator.org/sources/new
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tantek right
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tantek or for now, just use curl to their snowflake API - AKA that form
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aaronpk there's already an issue open for h-event support https://github.com/calagator/calagator/issues/240
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tantek I mean heck a curl GET of http://calagator.org/sources/new?url='+escape(indieEventPermalink) should do the trick
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tantek what's calagator written in?
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aaronpk ruby
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tantek oh
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tantek soooo hack their current hCalendar (vevent) parser is likely easier than upgrading the Ruby microformats parser - or … is it?
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aaronpk why would we need to upgrade the ruby parser?
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tantek is there deployed version of the Ruby microformats parser somewhere we can test with?
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tantek s/upgrade/fix and implement
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aaronpk webmention.io uses the ruby parser now
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tantek the ruby parser has a bunch of holes like proper date-time support, nested microformats, etc.
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aaronpk makes a note to implement a public API to use the microformats parser on webmention.io
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tantek do you know if the ruby parser supports back compat h-event / hCalendar parsing?
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aaronpk i don't think there is any backcompat
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aaronpk https://github.com/G5/microformats2
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tantek I think that is a necessary precondition for landing it in Calagator as a replacement for their current hCalendar parser
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aaronpk i don't see any reason to change their current hCalendar parser by adding h-event
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tantek aaronpk: the point is to replace it with G5
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tantek so they get h-event support
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tantek of course G5 needs backcompat hCalendar parsing support first.
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tantek noted: https://github.com/G5/microformats2/issues/9
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aaronpk i mean why not just add a separate importer for h-event?
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aaronpk here's their list of "sources" https://github.com/calagator/calagator/tree/master/app/models/calagator/source/parser
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aaronpk it would mean just adding a new file
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tantek better to keep the microformats parsing logic / smarts in one library rather than split up like that
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aaronpk i'm not sure i agree...
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tantek but I'm ok with separate h-event importer as an intermediate transition strategy as well
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tantek feel free to comment on the issue :)
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tantek.com edited /Calagator (+267) "note how to POSSE automatically if/when issue 240 is fixed, note existing POSSE is manual" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, while you're here, how do I "run" https://github.com/indieweb/link-rel-parser-php/blob/master/tests/BasicTest.php ?
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tantek as in, what's a sample PHP commad line that I can copy/paste to run the test(s) locally and have it report results?
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aaronpk good question, let me check
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tantek thinks all such master "test" files need a sample "how to run this" command line in comments that you can copy paste into your terminal
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek or if not in the test file, the root README.md
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tantek someplace discoverable
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aaronpk i'm adding to the readme
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aaronpk becauset here are usually a bunch of test files
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aaronpk done
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tantek uh - that seems quite suspicious
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tantek link-rel-parser-php/phpunit.phar " executable file 4568.956 kb \ This file has been truncated, but you can view the full file. \ (Sorry about that, but we can't show files that are this big right now.) "
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tantek 4MB binary executable? looks like a security exploit ;P
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tantek not cool
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tantek https://github.com/indieweb/link-rel-parser-php/blob/master/phpunit.phar
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tantek when I said PHP command line, I mean something like "php somefile.php"
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aaronpk you can download phpunit yourself, but i thought i'd givey ou the easy version
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tantek this kind of complexity / binary dependency just makes me want to write my own "runtests.php" that just has a flat set of test calls of the flat functions and flat comparisons to hardcoded results right in there.
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aaronpk https://phpunit.de
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tantek what is PHPUnit?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PHPUnit" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PHPUnit&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-02%2Fline%2F1433278167050
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aaronpk PHPUnit is a testing framework for PHP https://phpunit.de
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loqi.me created /PHPUnit (+84) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-02/line/1433278167050 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gRegorLove tantek: That's what I did with https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/tree/master/tests/test-suite
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aaronpk oh jeez
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aaronpk that works i guess
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gRegorLove I think barnaby wants to move it into PHPunit though, since the other tests are in there.
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gRegorLove May not be ideal, but it worked to get the cross-platform tests in there.
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aaronpk the nice thing about phpunit is it means the tests aren't some made-up syntax, so other people familiar with it can actually understand them
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tantek gRegorLove++ THANK YOU
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Loqi gRegorLove has 7 karma
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gRegorLove Well the tests in that suite already existed and are not a trivial quantity :)
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tantek aaronpk: you mean other PHP people? it's more important that the tests be in a cross-language format
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aaronpk for the mf2 ones yeah
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tantek language-specific testing idiosyncracies should not drive the design of such test suites
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tantek other way around
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gRegorLove Note that still requires php-mf2 is installed via composer, so it does have the composer dependency. But you could make it standalone.
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tantek yeah - remember when adactio made the case about php-mf2 should just be one file you can manually include to get it to work? there's a reason for that.
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aaronpk i'm not advocating changing the mf2 tests
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tantek avoiding the "ceremony" of composer and setup and all that is how you make such things more easily usable by more popel
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tantek it's amazing how such language specific dev-tools/environments supposedly designed to make things easier actually make thing *harder* for far more people
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tantek so much so that every system ends up reinventing them
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tantek e.g. git submodules
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tantek i.e. why (not) PHP Composer vs. git submodules for dependencies? anyone? (I have no idea)
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gRegorLove I'm pretty novice with composer and don't know git submodules at all, but I do like being able to run "composer update" to update libraries.
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vanderven.se martijn created /Impressum (+6403) "Created page with "{{stub}} <div style="text-align:center;margin:2em auto;">'''Nothing on this page should be construed as an attempt to offer or render a legal opinion or otherwise engage in the ..."" (view diff)
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aaronpk it took me a while to warm up to composer, but i would never do anything without it anymore
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Zegnat Well, that only took me like 2.5 hours to compile… Still not 100% sure it all makes sense, I have been staring at those words waaaaay too long
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gRegorLove What is Composer?
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Loqi Composer is a package manager for PHP libraries https://indiewebcamp.com/Composer
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tantek what is Impressum?
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Loqi An Impressum is a legally required disclosure of information about the person responsible for a website. This concerns creators in Germany and Austria the most https://indiewebcamp.com/Impressum
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tantek perhaps "appears to required by laws in some countries" instead of "legally required"
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tantek s/to required/to be required
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Loqi tantek meant to say: perhaps "appears to be required by laws in some countries" instead of "legally required"
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tantek Zegnat: ^^^ suggested edit
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gRegorLove *home* address? Jeez
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Zegnat Hmm, yeah, I wasn’t all too happy with the dfn yet.
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tantek gRegorLove: yeah, pretty ridiculous - it's like an "unprivacy" law
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tantek really dumb
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Zegnat gRegorLove: yes, Germany will not allow street view but you have to publish your home address if you want to blog.
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tantek something for the next IndieWebCamp Germany to tackle
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gRegorLove Heh. I'd forgotten about street view.
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Zegnat I emailed Marc about this as well when I was reaching out to German IndieWeb creators, so maybe he’ll take it into consideration for beyond tellerand or IWC
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tantek thanks for that follow-up Zegnat
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gRegorLove I wonder if any hosts have left Germany as a result? Or if they will, if it continues to be enforced.
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gRegorLove Zegnat++ for tackling that page
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Loqi Zegnat has 3 karma
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Zegnat I seem to remember we talked about a hosting provider that just opened a data centre in Germany
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Zegnat Hmm, gotta consult the logs
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gRegorLove Digital Ocean
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gRegorLove iirc
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Zegnat Yes, Digital Ocean http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-01/line/1433190505863
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Zegnat I haven’t gotten around to writing that email yet. I have been studying for an exam tomorrow. I just couldn’t let go off all this Impressum crap and had to get that wiki page started before collapsing into my pillow
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tantek thanks Zegnat
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tantek perhaps ask other folks in Germany to contribute to it als
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tantek a/als/also
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vanderven.se martijn edited /Impressum (+190) "Rewrite of the dfn." (view diff)
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Zegnat How is this?
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Zegnat What is Impressum?
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Loqi An Impressum is a disclosure of information about the person responsible for a website that appears to be required by laws in some countries https://indiewebcamp.com/Impressum
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tantek much better!
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Zegnat I am writing an article in my second language based on scraps of information from around the internet written in my fourth language … ugh. I also hope some Germans can take a look at how my translations have held up.
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tantek Zegnat - no problem - feel free to add that disclaimer and citations to the scraps
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tantek so that others know how it was derived
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Zegnat I *think* I have linked to everything I have read today.
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+45) "note Main_Page not in German yet, only principles-de" (view diff)
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Zegnat Actually, if IWC is going to have German pages (/principles-de ?) you might also require one of these Impressums ;)
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tantek Zegnat if translating the other direction is not as bad for, perhaps you can help with /Main_Page-de ? See: https://indiewebcamp.com/#Translations
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tantek Zegnat hopefully avoidable by avoiding hosting in those countries with such laws :/
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Zegnat It is about targetting the German market, which is hard to deny by writing in German. That’s one of the weird parts of the law.
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Zegnat The CEO of WhatsApp was given a 250000 EUR fine (or 6 months in jail) for a faulty Impressum and a non-German terms of service.
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Zegnat Yeay German courts.
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tantek Zegnat - it's about providing availability to German speakers - which is different than Germany the country market.
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tantek plenty of German speakers outside Germany
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Zegnat True. That would be an interesting argument as well!
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tantek and that's my IANAL hand-waving and I'm going to leave it at that
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Zegnat Fact is, if you aren’t selling something and aren’t based in Germany, you are probably fine.
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Zegnat tantek++ for IANAL hand-waving
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tantek yup - entire wiki is CC0 free of charge (your local connection may charge you)
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Loqi tantek has 196 karma
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tantek I wonder if this means we can't accept German sponsors :/
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tantek or can just the sponsorship page have an Impressum for only that purpose?
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tantek is going let aaronpk tackle that one.
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Zegnat I can write German on the level of a 5 year old. But I read it at a basic 16 year old or so level. That 16 y.o. level gave me a hard time interpreting some of these texts, but I am fairly confident in everything I have written. But I will not be helping with the German translation any time soon.
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aaronpk luckily marc handled all the sponsorship through his other conference, i had nothing to do with the $$ for IWC DE
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vanderven.se martijn edited /Impressum (-45) "/* Why talk about this here? */ Link up, and remove a simply odd sentence." (view diff)
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Zegnat !tell pfefferle Thank you for the links this morning, /Impressum is now a thing! I have linked you as one of the IndieWeb Examples, hope that is OK?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat !tell KartikPrabhu Thank you for the encouragement, /Impressum is now a thing!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat And with that, I am going to collapse in a pillow. Good night.
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Loqi sleep tight!
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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hpincket Hi
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KartikPrabhu hi hpincket
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: Zegnat left you a message 21 minutes ago: Thank you for the encouragement, /Impressum is now a thing! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-02/line/1433280533338
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GWG Good evening, all.
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hpincket I just started working on a simple site which might be applicable here (not sure). Its purpose is for users to own their own data, in this case playlist data (in the context of music streaming). It enables them to download plain-text backups of the songs in their playlists. When Grooveshark shut down over night, thousands of users lost their music collections. All of this is done client side. So it's a step in the same directio
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hpincket But it's not a replacement for Spotify/Soundcloud/etc. Does it have a place here?
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KevinMarks re multiple bookmarks, this is a good example: http://www.wired.com/2013/11/game-of-thrones-deaths/
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KartikPrabhu what is indieweb-friendly?
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Loqi IndieWeb friendly refers to online services interoperating well with the indieweb by supporting open indieweb formats, protocols, as well as enabling users to transition to their own indieweb sites https://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb_friendly
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KartikPrabhu hpincket: ^
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KevinMarks snarfed, noterlive.com is that offline-first client, except for the detail about not using micropub yet
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KevinMarks reads more scrollback
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tantek what is Grooveshark?
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KevinMarks !tell tantek git submodules are not language specific, which is handy
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Loqi Grooveshark was a streaming music silo that shutdown 2015-04-30 https://indiewebcamp.com/Grooveshark
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegorLove Hi hpincket. A way for people to download/own/publish playlists on their own site definitely is indieweb
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KevinMarks is http://www.copyright.gov/onlinesp/list/a_agents.html for DMCA takedowns a bit like an impressum?
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tantek.com edited /Grooveshark (+140) "bit more structure" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-deaths (+60) "/* Grooveshark */ 1000s of users" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks, what is offline first?
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 12 minutes ago: git submodules are not language specific, which is handy http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-02/line/1433283590278
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gRegorLove Interesting: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2015/06/01/web-decay and Twitter conversation https://twitter.com/anildash/status/605837411348652033
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@anildash @gruber I'd go in on a generic little service that uses the Internet Archive API and updates our old posts for us. (twitter.com/_/status/605837411348652033)
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gRegorLove And Tim Bray's original Web Decay Graph https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2015/05/25/URI-decay
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/aschroder/status/605867763681206273
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@aschroder @riordan @anildash @jkottke @gruber @waxpancake what about just a url prefix you could use that handles it? like http://t.co/hdfpsNxvfp... (twitter.com/_/status/605867763681206273)
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gRegorLove From the comments on tbray, a nice solution with Drupal that adds Wayback links after a certain period or fixed date: http://vertikal.dk/linkrot-solved-problem
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KevinMarks I was thinking that this would be a thing to do as part of the webmention flow
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KevinMarks ping the internet archive crawler to crawl your post adn each link
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gRegorLove Yep, that's on my list to do actually.
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gRegorLove Well, not in the webmention flow, but a short fixed period after publishing, ping the archive
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tantek I think we brainstormed that on the wiki somewhere
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gRegorLove http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-21#t1416613576792
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gRegorLove (From my User page. Not sure if it was captured elsewhere)
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gRegorLove Actually a couple lines up: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-11-21#t1416613543785
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@deeks Tantek Celik, "Why We Need the IndieWeb", https://www.youtube.com/ #https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/605873604312469504)
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KevinMarks hm, Woodwind won't let me subscribe to http://ma.tt
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KevinMarks has anyone done micropub in node yet?
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kylewm that's odd, i already subscribe to him
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aaronpk bret has a node micropub endpoint
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aaronpk what is gitpub?
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Loqi GitPub is a micropub endpoint that creates static content inside a git repository for later consumption by a ssg or flat file backed cms https://indiewebcamp.com/GitPub
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KevinMarks I meant the posting side
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aaronpk oh
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bret emma and i have been talking about doing more node micro pub stuff
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bret KevinMarks: we could write an electron micro pub app
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KevinMarks I'm just being lazy - I'll write ti myself for noterlive if need be
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KevinMarks what's electron in that context?
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bret https://github.com/maxogden/menubar
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bret its like webkit + node packaged as a desktop or menu bar app
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bret i think kylewm was working on a cli micro pub client