#indiewebcamp 2015-07-07

2015-07-07 UTC
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@dougmckown @benwerd Is there a podcast that covers #indieweb? (twitter.com/_/status/618212129687105536)
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@aaronpk @dougmckown @benwerd Sometimes TWiG talks about #indieweb things https://twit.tv/shows/this-week-in-google (twitter.com/_/status/618236675248951296)
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bret.io edited /2015 (+17) "/* Organizers */" (view diff)
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aaronpk bret: do you have a car?
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aaronpk or wagon?
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tantek.com edited /2014-review (+161) "/* Technologies */ person-tag" (view diff)
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Zegnat Good morning IWC
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tantek.com edited /2014-review (+252) "/* Community Resources */ mute, collection" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2014-review (+80) "/* Community Resources */ travel" (view diff)
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Zegnat Is there any preferred image host for publishing screenshots on the wiki?
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vanderven.se martijn edited /birthday (+145) "/* Facebook */ Add screenshot of separate privacy levels." (view diff)
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tommorris Zegnat: just upload the screenshots to the wiki itself. there's an upload file function in mediawiki.
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tommorris Zegnat: the image is then stored on the IWC servers and licensed properly etc.
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Zegnat Ah, alright, must have missed that function!
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vanderven.se martijn uploaded /File:facebook-basicinformation-birthday.png "Birthday configuration on Facebook."
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vanderven.se martijn edited /birthday (-24) "/* Facebook */ Move screenshot to IWC servers." (view diff)
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Zegnat Thanks tommorris!
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@RikMende I guess @MPE_HVE might be the only NGO implementing #indieweb from the get go - already one step in the future! (twitter.com/_/status/618417698213658624)
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jonnybarnes if you have a blog, and you have URLs like /blog/>{year}/{month}, and you have no blog posts for that given month, should a 404 be returned?
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csarven No!
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petermolnar I'd create a special result for that, with recommendations from previous/next month entries
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petermolnar or a page with "sorry, I was not blogging that time"
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petermolnar but not 404
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csarven jonnybarnes petermolnar gives a good alternative.
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csarven Another option may be to redirect (if you can) to /blog/>{year}
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csarven I said no at first because misread your question. I think 404 is also okay. In the 404, you can also do what petermolnar suggested
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csarven That'd be preferrable in my opinion.
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jonnybarnes okidays
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csarven If I arrived at that document, I'd prefer to see a 404, and then an index with links to all of the months for that year (where the current one is unlinked and greyed out).
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petermolnar I wouldn't server actual content with a 404, but I believe that's the pre html4 speaking in my head
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Zegnat I would send a HTTP 404 code still, simply because there is no content there currently, and might never be (in case of backdated years/months). Serving a page with 200 OK for every possible year (theoretically starting at year /blog/0/january/) seems odd to me
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Zegnat Of course for the visitor you might to offer a nice explanation text and links that do give content, but for browsers/crawlers I would still serve it as 404
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Zegnat There is no HTTP status code that better says “there is nothing of interest here right now, but there might be in the future”, I think
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petermolnar how about 720 - Unpossible? https://github.com/joho/7XX-rfc
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Zegnat 787 - Further Funding Required
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Zegnat I am not sure how crawlers handle status codes they do not recognise? We can be pretty sure 404 responses are properly handled.
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csarven Hmm, well, come ot think of it. 410 may be more appropriate here because you have a good idea why it is not available. 404 is for when you don't know or don't want to indicate why it is not there.
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csarven 410 is a bit dangerous because you tell the consumer not to come back again.
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csarven So, if you haven't posted the whole month and then the last day of thta month you post, that's no good.
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csarven 302 is another alternative. Like I said, you can point them to {year}
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csarven Use 404 if you never had a post there and never will. Use 410 if you had it but removed it. Use 302 during that month, and then switch to 404 the next month.
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rhiaro csarven: there's probably a brainstorming section on a wiki page for this...
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jonnybarnes so 302 for a current month whilst there’s no content, then 200 once there is an article?
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jonnybarnes and if no articles are written switch to 404 at the end?
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aaronpk personally i would just return 200 with no posts. anything consuming microformats will just see an empty items array
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ben_thatmustbeme is reading back
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aaronpk is also not a huge fan of mixing HTTP status codes with application logic
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ben_thatmustbeme it should be 404
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aaronpk I prefer reserving 404 for things that are just not valid URLs for my site
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ben_thatmustbeme they should not have been at that URL other that by typing it in. presumably if there is no link on your site, and there is no events in that timeframe, 404 would be correct
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aaronpk my month permalinks will link to adjacent months even if there are no posts there, which I think is totally fine
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rhiaro Mine too
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rhiaro Kind of feels like a mysterious gap of a month is skipped
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rhiaro Not that I handle the empty months well
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ben_thatmustbeme in which case, i'd say your link to "a month" is valid, and should return a 200
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ben_thatmustbeme you got the item you wanted, a month. it just happens to be empty
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ben_thatmustbeme if 204 didn't have assumptions about not changing the view, i'd say that would work too
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ben_thatmustbeme i view mine as archives. there is no archive for that date
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ben_thatmustbeme range
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ben_thatmustbeme buit i don't have next/prev links
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ben_thatmustbeme s/buit/but
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: but i don't have next/prev links
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Zegnat https://aaronparecki.com/3019/01/ - gives a 200 response, but with the calendar month of January 1970. That doesn’t seem right.
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk well that's tricky... 3019 is totally a valid year, I am just not likely to live that long
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Zegnat That’s the problem with status 200 here, I feel. Anyone could request any future or past month, possibly completely out of the websites scope.
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rhiaro What if you hand your blog down through generations
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aaronpk i stand by my original argument, 404 is for URLs that make no sense on my site
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Zegnat rhiaro: domains are personal in indieweb context right, should those ever be handed down?
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aaronpk I will give you that it's a bug that it says 1970, but that's it
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rhiaro Lots of personal things are handed down / inherited
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Zegnat https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2018/01/ makes sense and is a 404. (Not picking on you specifically here aaronpk, I just happened to have your site open when I needed these examples. These things probably go for almost every site.)
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Zegnat wonders what tantek does with this
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aaronpk well that URL is 404 because I don't have it set up to respond to that pattern https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/01/
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Zegnat I thought that to be the case aaronpk :) It is just that things might grow out of hand when you want 404 only for non-valid URLs. /notes/2018/01/ might very well get content within a reasonable future (unlike year 3019)
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aaronpk no it's quite easy, my URL pattern matcher catches URLs like /yyyy/mm and /yyyy/mm/dd, regardless of what the years and months are. but if you type in something random that doesn't match any of the URL patterns on my site it returns 404
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aaronpk note that https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/01/ is not a valid URL because I don't have any code set up to handle that even when you'd think there *should* be posts on there
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Zegnat ah, interesting
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk unrelated to this discussion, I am dropping the initial "notes" post type bit from my URLs soon, so that will be less confusing in the future
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tantek aaronpk - yes there should be a page at every trimmed URL segment :)
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aaronpk yeah, that's a different issue
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Zegnat Future year/date URLs on tantek.com also give status 200, just no items in the OL-element. Funny enough the layout breaks in future years because it loads the CSS relative to the year (e.g. tantek.com/2016/001/ has no CSS)
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aaronpk there sure are a lot of copies of cassis.js on tantek.com! http://tantek.com/2238/cassis.js
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tantek Zegnat++ that is a GREAT catch!!!
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Loqi Zegnat has 7 karma
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tantek aaronpk - every request for cassis.js at tantek.com gets served from /cassis.js
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tantek no matter what path
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Zegnat looks like tantek set up a redirect for cassis.js but not for his css :)
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aaronpk i figured as much
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tantek Zegnat because I want the cassis.js to always be the same no matter the year etc., where as the CSS gets archived per year
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Loqi gives tantek the cassis
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tantek s/where as/whereas
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Loqi tantek meant to say: Zegnat because I want the cassis.js to always be the same no matter the year etc., whereas the CSS gets archived per year
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tantek drinks the cassis
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Zegnat makes sense
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Zegnat I like the per-post scoped CSS thing though, I might steal that idea
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tantek Zegnat - see, what is custom post style?
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Loqi Custom post style is the practice of styling individual posts differently from the rest of the site styles https://indiewebcamp.com/custom_post_style
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tantek there you go ^^^ borrow/steal away!
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tantek feel free to ask any questions about implementation, design. happy to answer, having just coded it up
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aaronpk bookmarks this link in case he needs to check facebook for things https://mbasic.facebook.com/home.php
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Zegnat Hmm, that wiki page needs some love for JSM, he was doing per-post design (for almost all his posts) back in 2008
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Zegnat He even included screenshots in his archives: http://v4.jasonsantamaria.com/articles/2008/06/
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tantek Zegnat - definitely add him as an example!
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tantek especially since you have citations and dates!
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aaronpk possible source for parsing facebook posts without using the api?
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tantek aaronpk - I'm not sure what that mbasic page is doing - could you add it to /Facebook somewhere?
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aaronpk it's the news feed as HTML
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aaronpk and has links to each story as an HTML page
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tantek whoa - that's definitely worth documenting!
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tantek does it work w/o JS?
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aaronpk trying now...
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aaronpk yeah works great with no js!
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tantek awesome
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tantek maybe we should ask some FB employee friends to see if they can add microformats2 to that view
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aaronpk that'd be amazing
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tantek I have a feeling that as a non-primary view they may have more flexibility with modifying that - especially if we can give them tests to check-in and automatically verify results
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tantek the question is - is it possible to algorithmically translate from "typical" FB permalinks to mbasic facebook permalinks - if so, that leads to some interesting opportunities
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vanderven.se martijn edited /custom_post_style (+666) "Adding JSM as example from 2008." (view diff)
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Zegnat That’ll have to do, should serve as well enough inspiration :)
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kylewm huh, that's a good point, facebook.com/userid/posts/postid seems to map to mbasic.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=postid&id=userid
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kylewm even without microformats, that could still be useful for generating reply contexts and stuff
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kylewm is it weird that facebook permalinks don't include "og:..." tags?
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kylewm i think it's weird
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kylewm almost as if they are only intended for facebook to consume
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aaronpk i was about to say...
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aaronpk pretty sure that's their intention
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kylewm But does that strike you as hypocritical?
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aaronpk yes but what do you expect
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tantek kylewm: shhhh don't tell them they don't selfdogfood OG ;)
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@charlesroper @Vecchi_Paolo Would love to! Next Indie Web Camp is in Brighton btw: http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Brighton (twitter.com/_/status/618471812788285440)
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ShaneHudson_ I won't be able to get to Brighton this weekend but will try to join in during the weekend remotely :)
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GWG Afternoon
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chreekat howdy
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kylewm hi chreekat, welcome
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chreekat hiya
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kylewm chreekat: what brings you here? when you have a chance, feel free to add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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aaronpk rawr, i'm super upset about eye-fi dropping support for their "old" cards (non-cloud-based cards)
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chreekat kylewm: hi! I registered for the camp this weekend. I'm on irc often these days, so I thought i'd hope in
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aaronpk http://aaron.pk/n4c31
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kylewm ah ha, I see you on http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Guest_List, cool!
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kylewm wow, aaronpk that is really disappointing
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aaronpk I don't wanna pay for the eye-fi cloud service :(
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chreekat.net edited /IRC_People (+57) "/* Nicknames */ added self" (view diff)
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chreekat *hop
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aaronpk this would be a great use for Micropub
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aaronpk get the card to upload directly to a Micropub endpoint. then eye-fi's servers aren't even involved so they don't have any servers to maintain
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aaronpk oo there's a Toshiba card with a developer platform that lets you write apps that run on the card...
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aaronpk i can totally write a micropub app for this card
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aaronpk I think I may have found my indiewebcamp hack day project :D
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tantek aaronpk that sounds pretty awesome!
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tantek I have too many things I want to do this weekend!
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tantek I may bring all my "old" indieweb notebooks and open source all my UI sketches for user-forgiving undoable post UIs that I have *yet* to implement.
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tantek s/UI sketches/UI sketches and user flows/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: I may bring all my "old" indieweb notebooks and open source all my UI sketches and user flows for user-forgiving undoable post UIs that I have *yet* to implement.
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tantek even if that doesn't get anything "built" on my own site, I'm hoping a) others might be interested, and b) we can see if there is some way to connect those user flows with micropub (i.e. does micropub allow for some way for clients to "undo" stuff at the server)
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tantek (also involves things like delayed POSSE)
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@Printogoit Ha ancora senso avere un blog? Forse sì: Pingback, Webmentions e VRM: Sembra… http://www.dagoneye.it/blog/2015/07/06/ha-ancora-senso-avere-un-blog-forse-si-pingback-webmentions-e-vrm/ #comunicazione (twitter.com/_/status/618502811974803457)
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tantek btw - the entire undoable posting UI flow I've sketched allows for (builds on) lack of clientside JS.
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tantek so perhaps alternatively - I could try to *implement* it - but may need some help from more back-end savvy folks.
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tantek hmm - how long have we been 140+ in the channel? more characters here than will fit in a tweet ;)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek the other big itch (need to document it!) that I've got is a super-clean/slick/pretty design for "mobile" viewing of my posts and home page stream. e.g. I want it to look as good or better than how Instagram (iOS app) looks when viewing my stream of photos.
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tantek and if I get that, then the next stretch thing after that is to implement tantek.com/photos - a view of only posts that include at least one photo I've taken (yeah that will be interesting to markup) no matter where the photo jpg itself is hosted (my site, IG, Flickr, s3, IWC wiki etc.)
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tantek the goal being to make tantek.com/photos load faster and look better than instagram.com/tantek
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tantek is anyone else looking at presentation-focused projects like that for IndieWebCamp?
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@JulianEagles @GdnVoluntary perhaps it's time to recognise that charities don't own the data, individuals do #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/618510427190874114)
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rhiaro Public service announcement. I can now mark when I reschedule or miss travel plans. http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/06/1433882423 http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/06/1435431067 No microformats for that yet though
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tantek amazing! great to have the real world use-case and example though - that's how it starts!
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rhiaro aaronpk, you put strikethroughs through cancelled/rescheduled travel, right?
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rhiaro Do you store metadata for that, or just edit html output?
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rhiaro s/just/manually
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Loqi rhiaro meant to say: Do you store metadata for that, or manually edit html output?
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aaronpk rhiaro: yeah I have a "cancelled" property on the post
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rhiaro like, cancelled=true?
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rhiaro I use state=".."
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aaronpk yeah pretty much
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gRegorLove I'm thinking through URL slugs as I migrate my site. Considering: /articles/2015/07/title-slug vs. /2015/07/title-slug. Or possibly no date at all, just /articles/title-slug/. I think I like having year and month in the URL though.
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aaronpk gRegorLove: note that I am moving *away* from having the post type as the first part of the URL despite thinking that was a great idea when I started
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gRegorLove I was about to ask you about that.
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gRegorLove Will post type be anywhere in your URLs?
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aaronpk not really, I'm moving away from having post types
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aaronpk i'm thinking about setting the slug to something indicating the content if I don't manually set a slug
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aaronpk I do like having the URLs be somewhat informative as to what's on the page
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aaronpk and /2015/07/04/1 doesn't say much
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gRegorLove Gotcha. Maybe I'm too much into the blog mentality, since that's what my site's always been. I've always had articles and recently added notes, so /articles/ and /notes/ seemed to be the logical top level sections when I started this migration
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aaronpk ah yeah, just wait til you start adding stuff I have on http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
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gRegorLove Are you still storing them on disk in separate post type folders?
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aaronpk nope
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aaronpk right now i've got basic storage and rendering of posts along with a micropub endpoint to create and edit posts, the micropub endpoint has no knowledge of post types, just some knowledge of datatypes of specific fields like "published"
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aaronpk rendering the posts is where I start adding post-type-like things, such as using different templates depending on whether there is a photo or video, or sleep data, or a route
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aaronpk I still want to have URLs like /articles /notes /photos /runs /sleep /food etc, so I'm adding this idea of a collection (not sure what to call it) where posts may be added to multiple top-level URL paths depending on what's in them
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gRegorLove Cool
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tantek oh hey - yeah I vaguely remember a recent discussion about slugs in IRC that mentioned something hypothesizing about how mine get generated/edited - where was that
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tantek definitely have a bunch of opinions about that to share in case it's helpful ;)
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tantek (overthought it quite a bit in the early days)
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gRegorLove That was me :)
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gRegorLove hypothesizing
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gRegorLove Didn't see specifics on /Falcon
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tantek IRC log link?
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gRegorLove http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-05#t1436126503429
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gRegorLove Was thinking about /notes specifically at that time, but now looking at the broader picture for my URLs
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tantek yeah in general I agree with aaronpk - drop any expliciting post typing from the URL, I can share my reasoning about why I have them in my URLs *after* the date
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tantek s/from the URL/from permalink URLs
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Loqi tantek meant to say: yeah in general I agree with aaronpk - drop any expliciting post typing from permalink URLs, I can share my reasoning about why I have them in my URLs *after* the date
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tantek on the "how many words" question - answer is, keep your permalinks < 70 chars for more reliable email sharing (yes, things still get broken on line boundaries in email clients, including URLs, and thus break)
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aaronpk the idea of tantek optimizing his URLs for email amuses me
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tantek "requiring" a title is dumb an obsolete in terms of UI. no posting UI should ever *require* a title / name.
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gRegorLove I recall reading about your identifiers like 'b' and 't', and the slug isn't necessary to identify the post
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gRegorLove tantek: Are you manually specifying your slugs?
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KartikPrabhu i have notes auto-generate slug from content words, but they are also editable
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aaronpk i really want to get auto-generating slugs for my notes
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gRegorLove Hard to find the permalinks on tantek's rainbow background :)
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aaronpk i'm thinking about auto-generating slugs for other content as well, such as -sleep -burrito etc
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tantek gRegorLove: on that one post?
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gRegorLove On your homepage. The left column shows a fixed rainbow background, so the content scrolls up over it. Chrome 43 on Windows
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KartikPrabhu tantek: since scoped isn't widely supported I suspect that is a problem even on feed page
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tantek gRegorLove: that's a bug in Chrome for their failure to support (or at least don't screw up) <style scoped)
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gRegorLove I just scroll until the permalink shows up on the yellow :)
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tantek try it in Firefox :)
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tantek or even Safari - at least follows the first rule, and does no harm (even though they don't support <style scoped> yet)
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aaronpk it's still a problem in FF, because the text is a shade of grey that is lighter and darker than the colored background
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aaronpk as it moves across the rainbow
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aaronpk it's almost impossible to see on top of the green
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tantek ooh good point
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gRegorLove best-viewed-in-firefox.png :)
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KartikPrabhu making the background a bit transparent might help
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tantek gRegorLove: best viewed in browsers supporting <style scoped>
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tantek KartikPrabhu: nah - gotta get that full saturation effect ;)
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tantek wonders if a .h-entry .dt-published rule in the scoped style sheet would do the trick to override the global styles
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aaronpk can't wait til i can get back to work on my site again!
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tantek aaronpk: reload
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aaronpk much better!
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tantek #000 works much better against a saturated color bg like that
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tantek ok back to slugs
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tantek what is a slug?
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Loqi A slug is a unique text label that identifies a page in the URL https://indiewebcamp.com/slug
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tantek awesome. hey gRegorLove - as I answer your questions - mind adding them to a /slug#FAQ ?
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tantek (well if the answer seems satisfactory to you at least - you get to choose ;) )
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gRegorLove More likely to add #IndieWeb_Examples and ask people to contribute :)
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tantek that's even better - then you can capture everything since those are individual opinions
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tantek I agree with dropping stopwords from slugs, EXCEPT when the insertion of 1-2 of them actually makes the slug make more sense if you try to read it like a phrase or fragment
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tantek gRegorLove: re: "Or possibly no date at all, just /articles/title-slug/" <-- that's a very bad idea for lots of reasons
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tantek first, what aaronpk said about any kind of /post-type/ segment. you really don't want that for permalinks. aaronpk has had to learn this the hardway so I'll let him write the big diatribe about it
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tantek pretty sure I tried to gently convince him that it wasn't a great idea years ago, but then decided well maybe he'll prove me wrong ;)
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tantek (so I didn't push it, besides, personal choice and experimentation is how we all learn collectively)
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tantek second, slugs MUST NOT be critical to the permalink - and pretty sure I already wrote up why on the wiki
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gRegorLove I think it's on your wiki, but not IWC iirc
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gRegorLove I was reading something on the ProcessWire forums about another CMS (name is escaping me) that used a unique ID in the path before the slug and then had "forgiving" slugs. Basically if you misspelled or had other words, it would redirect to the correct URL.
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tantek.com edited /slug (+255) "fix dfn (had too many (bad!) assumptions), explicitly mention part of URL design, see also" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I thought that was a good idea
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tantek gRegorLove: yup - that's part of my slug design as well
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tantek here you go: https://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design#Topic
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tantek.com edited /URL_design (+96) "/* Topic */ link slug, emphasize optional part of permalink" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /slug (+39) "in particular "topic"" (view diff)
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