#indiewebcamp 2015-07-28

2015-07-28 UTC
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snarfed odd. someone is using my site as a testbed for some kind of comment generator. anyone here? https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress#comment-2589806
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snarfed looks like they're on GCE or app engine
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aaronpk lol are they trying sql injection attacks?
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snarfed and/or postgres?
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kylewm https://packetstormsecurity.com/files/128528/AllMyVisitors-0.5.0-SQL-Injection.html
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snarfed who knows
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aaronpk this is why i don't like local comments :)
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snarfed seems unrelated…? any user input is an attack vector, whether it's a direct post or a webmention where you fetch the contents
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aaronpk yeah it's just way easier to throw crap at a comment box
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snarfed eh, ok. not qualitative difference, but minor quantitative difference, ok
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aaronpk well, pretty qualitative, since i can tell you how many spam comments my wordpress gets vs spam pingbacks
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aaronpk i mean major quantitative :)
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snarfed ooh me too! tldr: almost all comments. https://snarfed.org/wordpress-spam-statistics-comments-pingbacks-trackbacks
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kylewm the if(now()=sysdate()) stuff definitely looks like it's part of one or more SQL injection attacks
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aaronpk yay stats
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Loqi yay!
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KevinMarks OK, how's this h-feed looking? http://www.pestagram.com/tag/indieweb
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snarfed cool!!!
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KevinMarks hm, how do I test with woodwind?
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KevinMarks not seeing posts
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KevinMarks gah ap error now :(
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kylewm snarfed: the bookmarklets on that page are rendering kind of Zalgo-y on FF and Chrome
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KevinMarks hm
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Loqi slack/snarfed: zalgo?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: oh wow yeah they're broken, thanks kylewm
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KevinMarks hm, kylewm, how do I check why you're not getting my h-feed posts?
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KevinMarks do you insist on permalinks?
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kylewm yeah u-url is required
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KevinMarks aha
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KevinMarks I was passing that in u-photo by mistake
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KevinMarks wtf timestamps in instargam api?
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@misuba A few words about the indieweb http://theha.us/2015/a-few-words-about-the-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/625826577859911680)
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KevinMarks unix timestamps 0_)
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KevinMarks yay, I can has photo subs
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Loqi woot
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Loqi [mention] http://theha.us/2015/a-few-words-about-the-indieweb posted 'A few words about the indieweb 4 min read Thanks to my AntiL...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com
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kylewm heh, yeah published = datetime.datetime.fromtimestamp(int(created_time))
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KevinMarks except I need to add those
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KevinMarks is that js or puython?
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kylewm python
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KevinMarks ah published = Date(t).toISOString()
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tantek is just now catching up on morning logs he missed.
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tantek Jeena: re: FB "something a friend of mine commented showed up in my stream, I wanted to find it, but I can't on his timeline it doesn't show up and in my stream it's gone too" - check https://www.facebook.com/notifications
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ben_thatmustbeme hello all
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tantek hello
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GWG Hello, tantek
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KevinMarks grumbles about js Date magic
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't want to know do I?
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KevinMarks Date("1438035167")
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KevinMarks vs new Date(Date("1438035167"))
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ben_thatmustbeme ohhhhh
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ben_thatmustbeme i just watched John Oliver and my brain went to something completely different
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KevinMarks hm
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KevinMarks I think I fixed them
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: responded to your question btw
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ben_thatmustbeme mpTweet is syndication, not intended for micropub as your primary, but wouldn't take much to make it that way
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@energyovertime @voxpelli thank you for your encouragement. I'll get to setting up webmentions soon enough (twitter.com/_/status/625843837085155329)
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/7/28/2/day_4_mpTweet_working
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: ^^
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KevinMarks_ Bugger, now I have iso dates but they seem to be crap ones
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /micropub_chaining (+368) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add me" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /syndication-brainstorming (+142) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ add mptweet, add see-also section" (view diff)
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KevinMarks so if I fix the timestamps, will woodwind update?
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KevinMarks looks like it, yay
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Loqi giggles
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KevinMarks OK, so http://www.pestagram.com/ now gives h-feeds for tag, person or location
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KevinMarks which you can sub to in woodwind
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kylewm why is it called pestagram?
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KartikPrabhu what is pestas?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pestas" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100Y
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KartikPrabhu what is PESTAS?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PESTAS" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100Z
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KartikPrabhu <shrug>
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kylewm PESETAS?
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KartikPrabhu oh maybe that's what I am trying to recall
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KartikPrabhu what is pesetas
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Loqi PESETAS is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish Elsewhere, Syndicate Everything To A Silo https://indiewebcamp.com/PESETAS
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KevinMarks it was called pinterestagram
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KevinMarks it make instagram look like pinterest
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KartikPrabhu pinstagram?
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gRegorLove I think we need a backronym for PASTA
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KevinMarks well, like pinterest did at the time when instagram didn't have a web view
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gRegorLove KevinMarks: How can I get a person with pestagram?
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: I see why hfeed2atom skipped some posts of yours. The first post for instance gives the mf2 name property as ["", ""]. I was assuming that the name always ends up as a non-blank string due to implicit name parsing. I should correct that
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek KartikPrabhu: deliberate empty names make sense to
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. agreed. I should correct that
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KartikPrabhu mostly a side-effect of first building for my own feed :)
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KartikPrabhu I am wondering why snarfed's markup gives 2 empty strings as name though
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KartikPrabhu instead of just one
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KartikPrabhu but that is not relevant to this problem
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: I would guess backcompat property conversion. entity-title -> p-name
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kylewm so there are both entity-title and p-name
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KartikPrabhu aah yes. makes sense
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KartikPrabhu so should hfeed2atom look for first non-empty "name" property to construct Atom <title> ?
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com (-85) "/* Interests */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks gRegorLove: currently you have to know their ID - find them in hashtag then click on their name
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gRegorLove Ah, ok
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KevinMarks I wrote this 3 years ago, the endpoints may have changed since
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KevinMarks lets try pestagram wiht hfeed2atom
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gRegorLove Used this to find my ID: http://jelled.com/instagram/lookup-user-id#
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KevinMarks I can probably add a query for it
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@kevinmarks @hunterwalk you can use pestagram for that http://www.pestagram.com/tag/indieweb generates an h-feed (twitter.com/_/status/625908690088886272)
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KartikPrabhu will be pretty horrible if people use pestagram + hfeed2atom
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gRegorLove Works pretty well, KevinMarks. Would be nice to get higher res versions and the author outside the e-content, but those are minor
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gRegorLove KevinMarks++ for pestagram h-feed
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KevinMarks heh
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Loqi KevinMarks has 137 karma
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KevinMarks we cna use the other one
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gRegorLove What other one?
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KartikPrabhu It looks like we don't have a page for "other one" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/randon_id
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gRegorLove :P
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KartikPrabhu poo! typos in a joke!
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gRegorLove what is randon_id?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "randon_id" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100_
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KevinMarks https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http://www.pestagram.com/tag/swat0
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2Fservices%2Fmicroformats-to-atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pestagram.com%2Ftag%2Fswat0
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KevinMarks how many times round the loops can we go?
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KevinMarks https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/?url=http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fwaterpigs.co.uk%2Fservices%2Fmicroformats-to-atom%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.pestagram.com%2Ftag%2Fswat0
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KartikPrabhu holy infinite loops Batman!
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KevinMarks anyway, I can now sub to instagram tags in woodwind
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KevinMarks__ https://twitter.com/valleyedits/status/625926815098478592
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@valleyedits Google+ Wikipedia article edited anonymously from Google https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=673430673&oldid=673419847 (twitter.com/_/status/625926815098478592)
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petermolnar good morning
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KevinMarks__ morning Peter
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@fluxkraft Implementing a personal API http://stefangrund.de/personalapi/ #indieweb #German (twitter.com/_/status/625966875093155840)
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voxpelli good morning!
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Jeena !tell tantek the friend didn't comment on anything mine, just some link of one of his friends
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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petermolnar.eu edited /IRC_People (+75) "adding me' picture" (view diff)
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@sys_adm_ama @papapelz War bei mir auch, weshalb ich das mit Indieweb erstmal vertagt hab… ich hab keinen Ansatzpunkt gefunden und hab grad nicht so Zeit (twitter.com/_/status/625984199175086080)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu (+766) (view diff)
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petermolnar.eu edited /User:Petermolnar.eu (+367) "/* website setup */" (view diff)
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petermolnar it's a surprisingly quiet day today here
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ben_thatmustbeme the calm before the storm?
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petermolnar if that's thousands of people joining the indieweb, let it come :)
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, that would be excellent
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Loqi awesome
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ben_thatmustbeme thecomingstorm++
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Loqi thecomingstorm has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme oops, almost at my train stop. surprised it held out this long
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petermolnar I have a pretty nasty question: if I pull in all what's in a h-entry for a webmention, I could pull in harmful JavaScript as well, right? Had anyone written any preventions for this?
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rhiaro petermolnar: I'm gonna convert incoming webmention content into markdown to store... which hopefully resolves some of that
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petermolnar it won't as markdown can have html in it; unless you write your own parser, filtering out malicious code
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rhiaro it isn't one-to-one both ways is it? When I convert stuff to markdown it drops a lot of stuff
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rhiaro Well, I haven't really got far with this yet, I'll report back..
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petermolnar that depends on the parser to drop or include as html those that it can't parse
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cweiske i remember that there are XSS tests for webmention
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petermolnar the only mention of xss on the wiki is at http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#checkmention
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voxpelli petermolnar: those tests are good
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voxpelli I myself simply ignore HTML as there's other attack vectors in there as well – like an absolute positioned Iframe that takes over your entire site with a phishing one
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Loqi slack/snarfed: <http://indiewebcamp.com/sanitize>
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voxpelli Whitelisting would be the only way to go I think
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ben_thatmustbeme this is why most people opt not to use the html from an h-entry and use only content which should strip out tags like "<script>"
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voxpelli One needs to ensure to filter rel-attributes and classes as well to avoid microformat injections that could in worst case hijack ones identity
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voxpelli And style attributes to prohibit the HTML to break ones site
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petermolnar I guess this may come useful from WordPress: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/browser/tags/4.2.2/src/wp-includes/kses.php#L0
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ben_thatmustbeme s/>"/>" and "<style>"
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: this is why most people opt not to use the html from an h-entry and use only content which should strip out tags like "<script>" and "<style>"
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Loqi slack/snarfed: stripping *all* html may be a bit too far. i often put links in relies that are important for context
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Loqi slack/snarfed: but a small whitelist generally makes sense. WordPress's and bleach's are both good afaik
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ben_thatmustbeme what is vouch?
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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Loqi The Vouch protocol is an anti-spam extension to Webmention. Webmention with Vouch depends on understanding Webmention https://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
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LanceyWork use vouching to determine whether or not to strip html?
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ben_thatmustbeme you could, but if you use vouch you have a reasonable spot to start from
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cweiske the owner of a white-listed domain dies, the domain is squatted by a malicious person and boom
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ben_thatmustbeme i was more saying use just vouch
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ben_thatmustbeme and then you just always use html
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cweiske or the remote domain is hacked
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ben_thatmustbeme and boom, they quickly get blacklisted / removed from those people who see it
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ben_thatmustbeme its not fool proof
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cweiske they don't see it if the malicious person is good
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ben_thatmustbeme but nothing is, any whitelist will have that same problem
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cweiske because they just get infected with some drive-by-trojan
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voxpelli A whitelist of <strong>, <em>, and <a> with href as the only allowed attribute would probably be good enough
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ben_thatmustbeme cweiske: there is no solution for that at all unless you remove all markup
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cweiske not all
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: thats probably a pretty good plan
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voxpelli Maybe allow <p> as well and <b> and <i>
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ben_thatmustbeme true, not all markup
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ben_thatmustbeme but then you have to parse for onclick, onhover, etc
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ben_thatmustbeme and anything attached to each tag
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cweiske yep
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Jeena <a href="javascript:alert('wohoo!')">Jeena</a> ;)
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cweiske you have to
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cweiske and style
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cweiske and things
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ben_thatmustbeme <p onmouseover="braeakallthethings()">
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voxpelli Jeena++ One would have to sanitize the href attributes as well :P
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Loqi Jeena has 12 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme again, this is why people just use content and not the html
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Jeena the thing I'd like to preserve is new lines because they are not that problematic for security but make it much easier to read.
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ben_thatmustbeme also allows for e.e. cummings style poetry in replies :P
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be nice, but that can actually be difficult as well
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ben_thatmustbeme although the content returned has new lines in it but they may not be the same as the html <br> tags
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voxpelli And then we're back at https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/69#issuecomment-124063976 :P
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voxpelli That getting the text representation of HTML elements is _hard_
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voxpelli Can't we just all send markdown instead? *me-runs-and-hides*
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po- plaintext uber-allles. firmly in theszak camp. metadata in HTTP-headers
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petermolnar Vouch is a bit too complicated in my opinion
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petermolnar and for the sanitize things, take a look at that kses.php from WordPress, it's pretty well done from all directions
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KartikPrabhu it is one of many things one can implement, including white/black lists, moderation, AI moderation and what not
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: not everyone uses or stores in markdown
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ben_thatmustbeme puts work on the producer when this is a consumer problem
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: I know, I'm joking – but honestly – markdown handles whitespace much more easily than HTML :P
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KartikPrabhu whitespace?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: fwiw bridgy publish uses html2text, which understand the various ways html does line breaks, whitespace, etc. among other things
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Loqi slack/snarfed: pretty happy with it
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ben_thatmustbeme wants to write a whitespace application and hide it in webpages
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ben_thatmustbeme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)
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KartikPrabhu is confused. what does white space have to do with this?
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petermolnar ben_thatmustbeme, here, have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_%28programming_language%29
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: Check the github link I posted above – eg <br> is rarely converted to a whitespace when extracting text from HTML
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ben_thatmustbeme beat you to it petermolnar
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KartikPrabhu mf2py does I think
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voxpelli problematic thing is that there seems to be no standardized "right" way of extracting the text from HTML?
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voxpelli So stripping HTML always risks resulting in erroneous presentation of the text
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KartikPrabhu hmm no mf2py also just removes <br />
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KartikPrabhu it does keep "\n" between tags though
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KartikPrabhu so I haven't had any trouble with next lines in webmentions from notes
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voxpelli There's no requirement to have a \n after a <br> though – and any \n will anyhow be treated as a regular space in the browser so one can't assume that a \n in the HTML means a line break :P
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Loqi slack/snarfed: voxpelli++
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Loqi slack/snarfed: KartikPrabhu: two goals: security and preserving formatting. we jumped from the first to the second
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KartikPrabhu { white=space: pre-wrap; }
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ben_thatmustbeme just replace s/<br\s*\/?>\s*/\n/
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ben_thatmustbeme as i think \n and \r are covered by \s
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ben_thatmustbeme not sure
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: the only kind-of-spec for extracting text from HTML actually requires that you apply the CSS, because of things like that, and applying CSS isn't really what one want in a server side parser :/
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KartikPrabhu no. not on server side but if you want to present comments with white-space intact, that is how to do it. HTML should not dictate presentation anyway
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: You have to handle the fact that all block level elements will be followed by a line break as well – youay even need to handle <hr> if you want to be bullet proof :P
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ben_thatmustbeme again thats css dependant though
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: don't know if you saw this: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27#t1438060499242
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Loqi slack/snarfed: hence HTML influencing presentation, if not dictating it
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ben_thatmustbeme you can remove the new line from block level elements
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: glennjones made a note in the linked to issue about his approach which handles most cases (although currently not <br> actually)
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Loqi slack/snarfed: if we say it's all css and not html, then it's even harder to convert to text with formatting, not easier
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Loqi slack/snarfed: KartikPrabhu: thx
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, scoped css would be nice
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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KartikPrabhu well then you have to sanitise the CSS
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Loqi slack/snarfed: and would make this even harder :P
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ben_thatmustbeme then you just sanitize the html, remove JS, and scope the css
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: problem with including CSS is that then a "text-transform: lowercase" will also affect the parsed data :P (Currently the case wen using .innerText in Chrome)
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Loqi slack/snarfed: I'd run screaming
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ben_thatmustbeme for a third time, this is why most just ignore the html and just use the content, stripped of all html
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voxpelli I lowercase my company name for presentational purpose, but the raw data should still not have it lower cased
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ben_thatmustbeme far too many cases that are difficult to handle
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Loqi slack/snarfed: in practice, all of the edge cases I've seen in bridgy publish (dozens!) were html formatting. not a single one was css, and not a single user requested it
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ben_thatmustbeme <br> to /n will probably cover MOST of your cases
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voxpelli ben_thatmustbeme: funnily enough – these text problems are present in that data already – thankfully only in some edge cases though
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ben_thatmustbeme if anyone want to try it and report back, that would be cool
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Loqi slack/snarfed: i vote forget about css until we have an organic real world example that we actually care about
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: I don't think its true that most ignore html. I at least sanitize it, and my whitelist has been getting larger over time
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KartikPrabhu snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 124 karma
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: I use HTML
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kylewm the example of css is tantek and aaronpk who use whitespace:preserve
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KartikPrabhu I also use white-space preserve on notes
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ben_thatmustbeme wow, i guess more than i realized do so
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KartikPrabhu and on incoming webmentions
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Loqi slack/snarfed: ben_thatmustbeme: in bridgy publish examples the majority of line breaks came from block elements, not br
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voxpelli Would be great if more people added their opinions to https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/69#issuecomment-124063976 – currently the mf2 spec says to not care about any HTML tags – including <br> I think
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Loqi slack/snarfed: ugh
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KevinMarks practical html sanitization is in feedparser
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KevinMarks if you want to really go overboard, there's Caja
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ben_thatmustbeme voxpelli: i believe you are correct, unless its an e- it won't return html at all
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ben_thatmustbeme just raw "strip out all tags"
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KartikPrabhu which seems fine
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tantek a fine morning indeed
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KartikPrabhu does not think this is an mf2 spec problem
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Loqi tantek: Jeena left you a message 4 hours, 33 minutes ago: the friend didn't comment on anything mine, just some link of one of his friends http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-28/line/1438079209838
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KevinMarks https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/html-sanitization.html
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tantek whoa good morning 150 people in #indiewebcamp
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tantek people & bots ;) Loqi
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snarfed KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 9 hours, 47 minutes ago: I see why hfeed2atom skipped some posts of yours. The first post for instance gives the mf2 name property as ["", ""]. I was assuming that the name always ends up as a non-blank string due to implicit name parsing. I should correct that http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27/line/1438060499242
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 111 karma
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KevinMarks http://www.diveintomark.link/2003/how-to-consume-rss-safely
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voxpelli There seems to be an active discussion around it http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#whitespace_collapsing_revisited
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petermolnar KevinMarks++ for the long memory :)
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Loqi KevinMarks has 138 karma
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aaronpk petermolnar: I only use the plaintext content from the parser, so there's no HTML injection attacks possible
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KevinMarks yes, still debating whitespace collapsing
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aaronpk wow that's a lot of chatter about html sanitization
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: I think it's desireabl from the mf2 spec perspective that the plain text presentation is expectable and consistent across clients
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petermolnar aaronpk I was just wondering if we already have a solution specifically for webmentions but soon realized that this is basic HTML trouble
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aaronpk yeah the "solution" is to not use html :)
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tantek KevinMarks: perhaps add that diveinto link to /sanitize ?
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KevinMarks it's there via web archive
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tantek ok
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tantek petermolnar: if you can brainstorm a simplification of /vouch or a simpler alternative, it would be greatly welcome to discuss and explore!
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KevinMarks whihc has the comments so is probably better the the .link
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petermolnar tantek I did think about adding DKIM to webmentions but that ended up more difficult and complicated than vouch
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Jeena voxpelli, for html2text http://api.rubyonrails.org/classes/ActionView/Helpers/SanitizeHelper.html#method-i-strip_tags and http://php.net/manual/en/function.strip-tags.php and so on
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tantek petermolnar: could you document that? you're likely not the last person to think of trying to use DKIM as an alternative
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aaronpk wow interesting
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tantek re: preserving whitespace - I think HTML is good for that: http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Whitespace
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aaronpk yes please document it! I would love to see that info
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voxpelli Jeena: stripping != extracting the proper text representation of
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petermolnar tantek I will
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tantek what is DKIM?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "DKIM" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100a
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: depends on what is called "proper"
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tantek caught up logs - quiet day
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KartikPrabhu does HTML spec discuss anything about "proper" text representation of tags?
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: stripping disregards the actual formatting of the HTML and thus line breaks and spaces that's not rendered on the web page itself might get introduced or lost
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tantek KartikPrabhu: what does that even mean?
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tantek KevinMarks++ for http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27/line/1438064111460
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Loqi KevinMarks has 139 karma
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I don't know. people have been saying that <br> should be next line or something, but I think it is fine to be stripped
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: closest I've heard of is the implementation of the ".innerText" – but it has met resistance amongst some browser vendors and thus never been standardized
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tantek wait what - Google+ CLOSED?!? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=673430673&oldid=673419847
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kylewm next revision reverts the change
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aaronpk haha what
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aaronpk !dns 74.125.63.33
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Loqi no reverse pointer found
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aaronpk !whois 74.125.63.33
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aaronpk "Google Inc. GOOGLE (NET-74-125-0-0-1) 74.125.0.0 - 74.125.255.255"
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tantek KartikPrabhu: attempting HTML -> plain text formatting is not a well defined algorithm
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. that is the thing I have been saying
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tantek which means, up to you!
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KartikPrabhu exactly
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Loqi slack/snarfed: uh, guys, re wikipedia, Google runs big IaaS and PaaS services, remember?
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KartikPrabhu also that ^ about google
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aaronpk oh yeah haha
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KartikPrabhu tantek: which is why I have been saying that the HTML -> text conversion in mf2 spec is fine
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KartikPrabhu for e-*.value
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tantek closes WP G+ tab. meh noise.
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KartikPrabhu is WP wikipedia or Wordpress?
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tantek wikipedia
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tantek !tell gRegorlove if you create the 2015-08 HWC event pages, I'll try to come up with a backronym for PASTA for you
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek hopes Loqi tells are case insensitive
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: the one in the mf2 spec is fine unless most clients starts to do their own additional processing, then it would be better to agree on a common line there, which is what eg. is up for discussion around <br>
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tantek gives Loqi a case-flattener.
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Loqi steps on the case-flattener.
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: I don't see the need to "normalise" across clients
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KartikPrabhu I can treat the <br> the way I want on my site and you can do the same
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Loqi slack/snarfed: I'm all for that usually
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Loqi slack/snarfed: ...one exception is when you run a nanny-user service like bridgy publish :P
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Loqi slack/snarfed: or software like known
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: How else can one ensure that ones content will be correctly interpreted or that one will correctly interpret others content? If there's a common practice it should be documented?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: s/nanny/many/
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KartikPrabhu lol!
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Loqi slack/snarfed: voxpelli++ eg replying to known makes me sad since i know links will be lost
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: i don't see how that is an issue. I have a <br/> tag. consume it as you will. On my site I can set br { margin: 5000px } who cares
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aaronpk i treat replies as they are treated on twitter, you can't embed markup
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KevinMarks you can put in links though
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KevinMarks and cards
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aaronpk i assume the other site will autolink things, but not <a> tags
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KartikPrabhu I think I do both
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: if you have a line break in your text then I want to be able to understand that to the best of my abilities so that I can give your content as respectful of a presentation as possible of course :)
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KartikPrabhu then use the HTML not the content.value
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tantek if you treat "as they are treated on twitter" then you MUST support whitespace per http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Whitespace
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tantek since Twitter does
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KartikPrabhu accept HTML tags that you think are good
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aaronpk i do
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tantek in Monocle too?
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aaronpk i think so
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tantek how about in Woodwind? kylewm ?
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tantek.com created /pestas (+21) "r" (view diff)
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: one doesn't exclude the other :) I want to be able to present the text only version of your content as accurately as possible as well
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KartikPrabhu well then you are going to lose fidelity
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KartikPrabhu HTML -> text loses fidelity
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Loqi slack/snarfed: sheesh, shades of gray
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KartikPrabhu 50?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: "as possible"
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voxpelli And as a consumer I would want the mf2-client library to do all that hard work for me so that I know that what I get out from that is ready to be presented in a certain way out of the box
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KartikPrabhu <shrug>
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KartikPrabhu seems like asking a lot from a mf2 parser, instead of using a reasonable HTML sanitiser
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Loqi slack/snarfed: bestpractices++ for this, since writing your own code for your indieweb site is important, but is definitely the exception, not the rule, and will only get more so
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voxpelli If that certain way is "whitespace: preserve" then I want that to be expected of me and to eg have Indiewebify.me alert me if I don't do that
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voxpelli So many protocols in the Indieweb now that it's hard to know the ins and outs of them all – WebMention, Micropub, mf2-parsing etc
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voxpelli So we need tools and best practices that can help us keep track of that
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KartikPrabhu aren't we just adding to the "ins and outs" by asking mf2-parsers to do a lot more
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KartikPrabhu best practices are fine. but shoving all those into a parser is asking a lot
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: the mf2-clients are experts on this and they already do it to a certain degree today as pointed out in the issues above :)
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tantek voxpelli: it's good to keep the building blocks small, modular, and potentially swappable
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tantek as well as layering things like mf2 helper libs ON TOP OF parsers, rather than incorporating into parsers
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tantek KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 112 karma
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voxpelli tantek++ if it's helpers or core parts of clients doesn't really matter – agree on modularity and small size
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Loqi tantek has 225 karma
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aaronpk helperlibraries++
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Loqi helperlibraries has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu yeah. use a parser to get mf2 props, then use an HTML sanitser to do other things. If you are building a thing like Known, document how it handles them or something for end-users
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voxpelli The nodejs parser eg already have an experimental more advanced whitespace parsing built in
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KartikPrabhu I have added HTML tags to my white-list over time, it is unreasonable to say "mf2py should do that"
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petermolnar doesn't believe in best practices, but that's offtopic http://securityreactions.tumblr.com/post/43800767538/best-practices
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petermolnar KartikPrabhu HTML tags whitelist: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/browser/tags/4.2.2/src/wp-includes/kses.php#L60 to https://core.trac.wordpress.org/browser/tags/4.2.2/src/wp-includes/kses.php#L411
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: yeah. I use bleach which does a good job
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KartikPrabhu i only add more tags to their defalt list if I get a webmention that needs it
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KevinMarks I think the whitespace stripping in name/value does need further looking at
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aaronpk ack weird new twitter permalinks
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aaronpk but hey now there are next/prev links on permalinks!
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aaronpk wait what... it's not consistent
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aaronpk oh, if I click a link from twitter.com/aaronpk i get the old permalinks
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aaronpk if I visit a permalink URL without clicking the link, i get the new kind
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snarfed aaronpk: hmm, i don't see next/prev links either way
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ben_thatmustbeme not seeing them
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aaronpk https://www.dropbox.com/s/fwskghp8eo09sxe/Screenshot%202015-07-28%2009.14.11.png?dl=0
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snarfed ohh not signed in
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gRegorLove Morning, indiewebcamp
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 56 minutes ago: if you create the 2015-08 HWC event pages, I'll try to come up with a backronym for PASTA for you http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-28/line/1438096795140
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gRegorLove Haha
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aaronpk oh yeah weird, only when i'm logged out
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snarfed Post Activites to Silos; That's All
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snarfed antipattern
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aaronpk haha
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gRegorLove aaronpk: I submitted a pull request for php-mf2, implied value of nested h-* https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/pull/71
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aaronpk gRegorLove++
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Loqi gRegorLove has 25 karma
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gRegorLove Interesting conversation in the logs today on mf2 whitespace.
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gRegorLove I'm pro changing <br> to \n in the parser
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gRegorLove The GH issue was linked once earlier but didn't seem to get discussed much. There are real world examples of whitespace issues in parsing: https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/69
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aaronpk gRegorLove: why'd you collapse the JSON into one line in the test?
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gRegorLove That's just what I copied from unmung
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gRegorLove Sorry, didn't know if it was important to have multiline
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aaronpk i just find it easier to read
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@RikMende Wonderful #indieweb feature that aggregate comments,replies,retweets back to your own website http://www.rmendes.net/2015/rudawenglish-erdogan-is-lying-and-nato-knows-itbut-also-desperately https://twitter.com/RikMende/status/626065139129843712/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/626065139129843712)
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aaronpk also makes it easier to see if anything changed in that json
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gRegorLove Ah, right. Oops. It was late? :)
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Want me to revert to multiline and add the commit?
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aaronpk sure
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gRegorLove Geez, I shouldn't submit PR late at night apparently.
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gRegorLove I think the "T" in the timestamp also came from unmung
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aaronpk i don't see this T you speak of
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gRegorLove Right, it's not there. It came from me replacing the expected JSON :)
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gRegorLove I was getting phpunit errors still after I was pretty sure I'd fixed the parser, so as a double check I ran the HTML through unmung and replaced it in the test.
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aaronpk oh ha
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aaronpk that's...not safe :P
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KartikPrabhu doesn't RFC whatever say to have a T in the timestamp?
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aaronpk ISO8601?
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KartikPrabhu yeah maybe that
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aaronpk i always forget which one the microformats spec references
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aaronpk but i always use iso8601 everywhere
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gRegorLove Yeah, so the datetime parsing seems to be a difference between php-mf2 and mf2py, but that's aside from this specific issue
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KartikPrabhu mf2 really needs a common test set
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aaronpk i thought there was one
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gRegorLove There is
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gRegorLove mf2py parses "2015-07-12 12:03" into "2015-07-12T12:03:00"
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KartikPrabhu it does not have all "features" so most parsers fail that
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@BillSeitz #IndieWeb folks might want to comment on this backgrounder.... http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki/WebsOfThinkersAndThoughts (twitter.com/_/status/626068328172290048)
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KartikPrabhu huh, don't understand the context/goal in that link ^ "Make it easier for people to improve their Sense Making as a way of Augmenting Human Intellect"
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@BillSeitz .@mcmorgan @holden thx I'm trying to restart from ground zero to integrate ideas from SFW, IndieWeb/ancestors, and my own previous thoughts. (twitter.com/_/status/626068711414214656)
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: mf2 test suite: https://github.com/tobiastom/tests
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@kevinmarks RT @RikMende: Wonderful #indieweb feature that aggregate comments,replies,retweets back to your own website http://www.rmendes.net/2015/rudawenglish-erdogan-is-lying-and-nato-knows-itbut-also-desperately http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/626070224048033792)
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tantek no the "T" separator is OPTIONAL in ISO8601
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tantek and frankly makes it less readable
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tantek so we're preferring datetime WITHOUT the T separator - with a space instead, which is still valid ISO8601
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KartikPrabhu I see
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tantek it's one of those dumb human-unfriendly RFCs that insists on things like the T separator and artificial precision of seconds
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tantek maybe RFC3339?
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gRegorLove So is the mf2py parser wrong to add "T"?
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KartikPrabhu yeah one of those
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tantek yaeh that's it
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tantek gRegorLove: yeah, it's UNDESIRABLE to add the "T"
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tantek we can spec it precisely if you like
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tantek but really we should update the test suite accordingly
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gRegorLove I was just curious. Had no plans to update parsers either way.
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tantek RFC3339 was wrong about recommending use of the "T" separator
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tantek and the W3C note on date time references RFC3339 so the error was propagated
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tantek and Atom I think also referenced RFC3339 so it ended up with artificial precision
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tantek so much propagation of errors
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KartikPrabhu tantek: would be good to add that to http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_dt-_property
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KartikPrabhu moving to #microformats for a question
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tantek KartikPrabhu: sure - add it to microformats2-parsing-issues
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kylewm gRegorLove: re "mf2py parses "2015-07-12 12:03" into "2015-07-12T12:03:00"" -- that's not generally true
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kylewm (anymore)
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gRegorLove Hm? unmung.com uses mf2py, I thought
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kylewm recent change https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/commit/d3175a7482ff48c0805229282f0d9556b2702377
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gRegorLove Ah, cool
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kylewm jeez I would have thought it was a lot longer ago than two weeks
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gRegorLove Good to know. Part of the reason I used unmung was because I knew mf2py had the nested h-* parsing correct :)
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Multi-line JSON is pushed
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gRegorLove Should the Portland "Hack Night" text remain in the August HWC pages?
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gRegorLove It was on 7/15 and 7/29, maybe others
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gRegorLove aaronpk
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kylewm gRegorLove: probably per http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27/line/1438019145055
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@RikMende @wittysparks @kevinmarks check out : http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#WordPress (twitter.com/_/status/626084714193944577)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2015-08-12-homebrew-website-club (+3818) "HWC" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+108) (view diff)
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@kevinmarks @wittysparks @RikMende there are also ways to embed webmentions on static sites http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Services (twitter.com/_/status/626085979380563968)
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@RikMende RT @kevinmarks: @wittysparks @RikMende there are also ways to embed webmentions on static sites http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Services (twitter.com/_/status/626086026906243072)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (+108) "/* What */ add back h-event u-url" (view diff)
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@wittysparks @kevinmarks @RikMende webmentions is awesome too - thanks for the share Kevin (twitter.com/_/status/626086901577945088)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2015-08-12-homebrew-website-club (+108) "/* What */ h-event u-url" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2015-08-26-homebrew-website-club (+3926) "HWC" (view diff)
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@RikMende @wittysparks actually what you saw are webmentions...around 1 URL, merging comments & social reactions + site-to-site replies = webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/626087406547005440)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+486) "rest of 2015" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I'm pretty sure https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Read_Social_Stream describes woodwind
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gregorlove.com created /events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club (+3926) "HWC" (view diff)
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@petermolnar @vboykis in reply to: https://t.co/9T3zVBgnDM, let me introduce you to #indieweb @ http://indiewebcamp.com/ That is how you solve it. (twitter.com/_/status/626089398229159936)
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Loqi [bridgy] Rick Mendes retweeted a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Services (https://twitter.com/RikMende/status/626086026906243072)
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Loqi [bridgy] WittySparks replied '@RikMende Got to know something new and useful today which I can give it a try for @wittysparks' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Services (https://twitter.com/wittysparks/status/626087821887954948)
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Loqi [bridgy] Rick Mendes replied '@wittysparks actually what you saw are webmentions...around 1 URL, merging comments &amp; social reactions + site-to-site replies = webmenti...' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Services (https://twitter.com/RikMende/status/626087406547005440)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /follow (+0) "fix typo" (view diff)
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kylewm KevinMarks: does it describe any feed reader?
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tantek kylewm: or rather, what requirements does "Read Social Stream" place upon a feed reader?
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@dietrich Saying goodbye to another well-covered laptop. @bocoup @unhosted @nodebots @meatclubin #indieweb https://twitter.com/dietrich/status/626091425818480640/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/626091425818480640)
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@andreasgal RT @dietrich: Saying goodbye to another well-covered laptop. @bocoup @unhosted @nodebots @meatclubin #indieweb https://twitter.com/dietrich/status/626091425818480640/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/626091788437221376)
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tantek KevinMarks, do you think you could describe how Woodwind implements the steps of https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Read_Social_Stream ?
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KevinMarks yes, it supports videos
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KevinMarks aaronpk's demo plays
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tantek that's kind of amazing
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KevinMarks it's caleld not sanitizing html
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KevinMarks ;)
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tantek huh - did Woodwind show my scoped style sheet then?
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KevinMarks https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/07/12/3/indieweb plays
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KevinMarks not suer if that is kyle inlining
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tantek does some view source
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tantek looks like e-content being propagated
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KevinMarks equally kyle could be calling auto-link on the plaintext
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tantek has auto_link been ported to Python?!?
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KevinMarks yes, unmung does it
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KevinMarks based on kyle's library
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KevinMarks I use it in ask.willsomeone.com too
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snarfed auto_link?
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KevinMarks https://github.com/kevinmarks/cassis-autolink-py
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tantek cooool
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snarfed ah, just linkifying text. yup plenty of python implementations of that, even multiple that include the full extended list of tlds (ugh)
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snarfed KevinMarks++ for his
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Loqi KevinMarks has 140 karma
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snarfed kylewm++ for his too, https://github.com/kylewm/brevity
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Loqi kylewm has 203 karma
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KevinMarks I use tantek's regex, so not all the tlds
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snarfed ah ok
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KevinMarks but I also do fragmention embeds
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tantek snarfed - beyond the new tlds craziness, happy to get feedback / requests on better linkifying/embedding behavior
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KevinMarks http://www.kevinmarks.com/mentionquote.html
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tantek I already know auto_link is better than what Twitter uses
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kylewm Woodwind does sanitize, but it allows video and audio
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Loqi [bridgy] https://www.facebook.com/1455747814748163#10156068734935019 was invited to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club
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snarfed (mine is ok but doesn't have either tld list or regex, https://github.com/snarfed/webutil/blob/master/util.py#L294 )
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kylewm (it doesn't run auto_link)
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tantek so if you know of any good features of those other python implementations, please let me know!
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/?rawtext=https%3A%2F%2Fkartikprabhu.com%2Farticle%2Fmarginalia%23In%2520the%2520case%2520of%2520digital%2520content%2C%2520the%2520artifact%2C%2520once%2520created%2520and%2520published%2C%2520is%2520not%2520static.%0D%0A%0D%0Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.kevinmarks.com%2Fmentionquote.html%23with%2520a%2520fragmention%2C%2520we%2520potentially%2520have%2520a%2520quote%2520from%2520the%2520source%2520in%2520the%2520
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snarfed ooh that could be one of the last ugly fb event invites we see, now that the fix is merged and pending deploy
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KevinMarks also now that fb is deprecating the api
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snarfed tantek: sure! looks like there are brief feature lists at https://github.com/kylewm/brevity#readme and https://github.com/snarfed/webutil/blob/master/util.py#L330
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snarfed KevinMarks: sigh. we may still be able to get event members though. haven't investigated yet
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snarfed man i totally forgot implementing glyphicons and target= in my linkifier
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tantek snarfed: hmm - I disagree with "In the the link text, Removes the leading http(s)://[www.] and ellipsizes at the end if necessary." - since that changes what the author typed in the note - and conveying https is important, as well as supporting the select/copy/paste text use case
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snarfed looks like https://github.com/kevinmarks/cassis-autolink-py/blob/master/cassis.py#L27 has some great features too but no docs, we should lean on KevinMarks to write a few lines :P
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tantek ^^^ oh dear, I expect to go back up the chain.
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tantek s/expect to/expect that to
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Loqi tantek meant to say: ^^^ oh dear, I expect that to go back up the chain.
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snarfed tantek: interesting perspective! not sure i agree but let a thousand flowers bloom
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KevinMarks ah crap, my code fails in python 3
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tantek snarfed - note also that you can call auto_link repeatedly on its own output and it won't change
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snarfed agreed! important. mine too
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snarfed (and probably others)
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KevinMarks did you see the fun wiht twitter removing the www. the other day?
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KevinMarks https://www.twitter.com/robots.txt vs https://twitter.com/robots.txt
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KevinMarks btu when you link to them in twitter they look the same
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KevinMarks so it looks liek they're blocking all bots
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KevinMarks forcing ben to tweet https://twitter.com/benward/status/621942019783421952
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@benward @textfiles You’re mistaken. That robots.txt is hosted on `www-twitter-com`; a redirect domain. All Twitter pages are `twitter-com` (no www.) (twitter.com/_/status/621942019783421952)
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aaronpk hm i was hoping to finish the webmention notification clustering before deploying but it's proving to be a bigger challenge than originally anticipated so i should probably just deploy the better RSVPs
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tantek exactly. such confusion is why I don't think it's a good idea to remove "www." when autolinking URLs
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aaronpk wow yeah that's bad
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aaronpk I prefer displaying URLs without "http://" tho
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tantek I'll autolink URLs without the http:// - but I prefer leaving it as-is
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tantek that is, if the author omitted http:// - then the display text of the link will also do so, and vice versa
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snarfed that twitter example is funny, but kind of a stretch to use as justification for always showing www
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tantek it's for always showing what "www" links to
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tantek or not
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snarfed seemed like the confusion was that redirects www links but not www/robots.txt, not that the visible link was rendered differently
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tantek similar note difference between forbes.com and https://forbes.com
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snarfed it may well be the right thing to do; i'm just not convinced based on that example alone
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tantek snarfed: the rendering of the visible link as "twitter.com/robots.txt" added to the impression that twitter *was* blocking everything
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tantek whereas if it rendered the "www.twitter.com" then it would have been more obvious that he'd screwed up the link
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tantek classic visible data advantage
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snarfed i understand. it's just a pretty technical, niche example. i'm not yet convinced that it extends more widely.
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snarfed but that's ok!
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tantek that's a fair criticism as well
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tantek as in - in 99% of cases, www.x and x are the same
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KevinMarks via benwerd - an Inbox feed https://developers.google.com/gmail/gmail_inbox_feed
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snarfed yup, and subjectively imho the slight visual elegance of omitting www outweighs the 1% confusion. definitely subjective though!
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tantek right, hence I think your design choice is also reasonable
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snarfed 100 karma to the first person who serves their gmail feed publicly!
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aaronpk wow i did not know you can get your gmail inbox as an atom feed
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tantek and how is that secure?!?
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aaronpk well it requires an access token
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benwerd Once upon a time Gmail had obfuscated feeds that you could plug into any reader
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Loqi benwerd: rhiaro left you a message 3 days, 1 hour ago: happy to stream IWCEdi drinks if we're still going when you get here... We're in No. 1 Grange Road http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-25/line/1437844386768
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Loqi benwerd: rhiaro left you a message 2 days, 1 hour ago: now we're in the Hoose, 3x giant nachos imminent, shout if you want to see :) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-26/line/1437931723434
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benwerd Aww, I missed giant nachos
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benwerd Also, I miss giant nachos
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tantek my dad ordered giant nachos at Papalote Sunday night. which reminds me that there are leftovers of them in the fridge. hmmm...
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tantek or benwerd, if you like we could chat IndieWeb things over fresh giant nachos at Papalote today/tonight
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aaronpk i hope you all know I get push notifications any time anyone mentions "nachos" in IRC
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KevinMarks hm, I have leftover corn chips
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benwerd tantek: I'm at a podcast event tonight - but perhaps tomorrow night ..?
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benwerd mmm, nachos.
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tantek ponders what it would take to get giant nachos at Homebrew Website Club
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gRegorLove mmm, nachos
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@book_tribe • R. O. Akande: #DISPATCH TALES A collection of Poems on Pain Grief Agony Politics Death Hope Loss Dreams IndieAuth http://www.amazon.com/dp/1326242784?tag=7654-20 (twitter.com/_/status/626103083039358976)
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Loqi [mention] gRegor Morrill commented 'What do you call posts that only exist on a silo? Nacho posts! #indieweb' on a post http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-28/line/1438108947545 (/2015/07/what-do-you-call-posts/)
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tantek wat
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aaronpk hahahahaha
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aaronpk gRegorLove++
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tantek oh wow that's bad
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Loqi gRegorLove has 26 karma
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gRegorLove You're welcome.
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gRegorLove I'll see myself out. :)
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rhiaro Oh wow
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rhiaro gRegorLove++
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Loqi gRegorLove has 27 karma
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rhiaro New fave joke
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gRegorLove Stolen from the joke "What do you call cheese that isn't yours? Nacho cheese."
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aaronpk s/stolen/adapted
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gRegorLove remixed. Everything is a remix. :)
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@Aodunaderasheed RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #DISPATCH TALES A collection of Poems on Pain Grief Agony Politics Death Hope Loss Dreams IndieAuth http://… (twitter.com/_/status/626106336326103040)
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@pmartinauthor RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #DISPATCH TALES A collection of Poems on Pain Grief Agony Politics Death Hope Loss Dreams IndieAuth http://… (twitter.com/_/status/626107780206886912)
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@pbeacannon RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #DISPATCH TALES A collection of Poems on Pain Grief Agony Politics Death Hope Loss Dreams IndieAuth http://… (twitter.com/_/status/626108098114031616)
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KartikPrabhu oh come on book people!
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tantek gRegorLove: I sent you a webmention from http://tantek.com/2015/209/t1/not-anywhere-cept-hosted-on-silo - did you get it? or do you not display such webmentions?
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gRegorLove I got yours (and aaronpk's). They're not auto-processed and displayed yet.
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tantek got it
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gRegorLove Processed now! http://gregorlove.com/2015/07/what-do-you-call-posts/ Need to update my display of likes.
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gRegorLove Definitely a work in progress, only added last night.
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tantek this is hilarious. we finally have an informal funny term for the opposite of ownyoudata
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tantek "hey (tech person with important sounding title), when are you going to start owning your data instead of just posting NACHOS?"
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tantek and they'll be like, wat?
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ben_thatmustbeme trying to figure a bacronym for TACO(S) now too
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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tantek still have to figure one out for PASTA
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snarfed tantek: we did, it's like nachos: post activity on silo; that's all
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tantek oh? was thinking more like random like Posting All Such Things Anywhere
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loqi.me created /NACHOS (+190) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek oops that failed
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tantek.com edited /NACHOS (+40) "dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /NACHOS (+103) "contrast ownyourdata, see also" (view diff)
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tantek ^^^ this is pretty much all your fault gRegorLove
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gRegorLove I've created a monster
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tantek no you just named the monster
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gRegorLove :)
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tantek snarfed, PASTA seems to imply spaghetti (code, behaviors), so I'm wondering if we can work that in somehow
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gRegorLove For my like display, maybe I should ignore the p-name and just display "Liked this". I think I did that initially, but then switched at some point to using the content, since that was Bridgy's default content for likes.
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tantek or maybe PASTA is already overloaded, e.g. giant spaghetti monster, Pastafarian
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gRegorLove looks at /like
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tantek gRegorLove: or /facepile!
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gRegorLove I'm not a fan of the facepile with my current design
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tantek gRegorLove: I think you want /likes
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snarfed tantek: up to you! i'm not really invested :P
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tantek the /like page is for a like post on its own permalink
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tantek the /likes page is for how to display a likes section on a post
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aaronpk anybody else want to weigh in on http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub-brainstorming#Explicit_CRUD ?
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aaronpk specifically changing edit-of={url} to mp-action=edit&url={url}
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tantek interesting - thus a decoupling of editing a post, vs. posting an edit post?
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aaronpk unfortunately yes
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tantek seems reasonable though
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tantek as I can see wanting to "just" implement editing of your own posts, without doing all the work to implement "edit posts" per se
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aaronpk definitely
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tantek though it would be nice to try to keep them compatible
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aaronpk if the "properties" key stays, then they are still quite compatible
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aaronpk e.g. add[properties][category][]= vs the simpler add[category][]=
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tantek a-ha that's cool - thus mp CRUD brainstorming is helping to figure out the structure of what /edit post could be like
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tantek for editing specific properties - thought that still should (needs to be) connected to what the presentation of an edit post of a property would *look* like to users viewing the edit post
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aaronpk we've been talking about adding additional properties to the parsed microformat result such as "lang" attributes
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tantek I guess we can hope it works out - and if not (discovered by way of someone implementing more detailed edit posts)
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tantek then we can iterate then
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aaronpk would there be a reason to support setting the lang attribute of an h-entry via micropub?
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tantek in practice explicit lang attrs in HTML are a mixed bag
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aaronpk if so, a request to set the language and add a category would look like: add[lang]=en&add[properties][category][]=indieweb
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tantek linguistic analysis yields better results
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tantek yeah don't even bother with =en - it's such a template default that all reasonable consuming applications must ignore it
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tantek as copy/pasta noise
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tantek a-ha PASTA!
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tantek connects the things
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aaronpk ii guess whether to keep "properties" for the micropub request is a matter of whether it's possible that microformats parsers will eventually include other things next to "type" and "properties" keys in the future, e.g. for person-tagging
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tantek I guess lang is reasonable to drive via non-english posting practices
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tantek perhaps document such posts first?
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tantek what are non-english posts?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "non-english posts" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100c
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aaronpk the multi-language sites are a good example
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tantek what is a multi-language post?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "multi-language post" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100d
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tantek if such examples exist, let's see stubs for those pages with examples sections with permalinks
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aaronpk hm i thought someone had added a bunch of examples already
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aaronpk ah it's over here http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Parse_language_information
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tantek right, I'm saying we need indieweb documentation of existing display text publishing practices with permalinks before jumping to needs / markup etc.
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tantek s/display/non-english display
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Loqi tantek meant to say: right, I'm saying we need indieweb documentation of existing non-english display text publishing practices with permalinks before jumping to needs / markup etc.
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aaronpk there are examples linked fthere
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tantek sure - probably better to have them on indiewebcamp.com
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tantek to focus on actual live indieweb publishing practices
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aaronpk well anyway i wasn't talking about language support for micropub explicitly, more in general about whether there might be things added to the microformats spec that are *not* inside the "properties" object
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tantek well we tried that with area shape & coords and it failed
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme is the one that helped figure that out
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KevinMarks linguistic analysis assumes thinsg are in one language only
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tantek KevinMarks: so does lang
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aaronpk the way voxpelli drafted it, it assumes a property is in one language, but different properties can have different languages
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KevinMarks yep
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tantek different properties, or different *values* of properties.
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KevinMarks both
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aaronpk actually different values of properties
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tantek ok
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ben_thatmustbeme no matter what, i feel like you have to do an embedded something for micropub posting
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aaronpk the example on the mf2 wiki is great
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KevinMarks the example we saw was summary in fr, content in en
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tantek interesting mix
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ben_thatmustbeme similar to how gps location works
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KevinMarks we assumed it at the granularity of e- not p-
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aaronpk KevinMarks: it would work with p- too, if you didn't mind the value expanding to {"lang":"sv","value":text"}
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tantek maybe that avoids the problems with the first approach we took with area shape and coords?
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aaronpk well anyway, it sounds like I should go ahead and make the change to /Micropub
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tantek sounds like you have a good amount of consensus on it
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tantek now to see if its implementable
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aaronpk i already implemented it the other way, it will be a small change for me
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aaronpk just updated my implementation
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tantek server or client?
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aaronpk server
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aaronpk right now my client is curl ;)
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tantek aside: we really do need to start creating those social web maps so we document things like the shrinking land bridge of the FB API from the indieweb to FB.
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KartikPrabhu social web maps?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/map#Sketches
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+21) "/* POSSE land bridges */ Bridgy publish" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+13) "move Friendfeed to dead web sea" (view diff)
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tantek this map has been changing every year - definitely worth an attempt at drawing / updating
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+105) "/* IndieWeb Alliance */ getting started with indieauth puts you on the map" (view diff)
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tantek also a nice acknowledgment of those who get IndieAuth etc. working on their sites
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+54) "people are POSSEing to Flickr and Foursquare, no one to Tumblr yet" (view diff)
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snarfed probably the biggest win since that page was created is that there are too many people w/indieauth, posse, etc to draw individually
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snarfed counting known, wordpress, etc
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snarfed hell, webmentions too. data: https://snarfed.org/2014-11-06_happy-1000th-bridgy#activity (unique domains)
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+473) "dfn, note 2013 context, call to action to make maps" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+47) "summary, see also indiemark" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed, that
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tantek just a grouping design issue
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tantek e.g. Withknown Nation :)
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snarfed hmm maybe
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tantek and how many independents do we have with self-hosted WordPress with indieweb plugins?
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tantek vs. WordPress.com Nation
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snarfed more the former
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snarfed judging by bridgy users, the majority don't hang out here
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tantek is there some URL of bridgy user activity we can use to source information for the map?
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snarfed like stats? the front page has counts, that blog post has deeper stats, and the users page can get you to any individual user
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snarfed i can work with you on more targeted questions
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tantek great
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+197) "/* IndieWeb League */ for more use Bridgy stats" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /social_web_map (+149) "/* POSSE land bridges */ include backfeed support as well" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ Hm, pestagram.com should have a "repin" button that reposts the image. Indie actions?
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tantek yes, repost is a webaction
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KevinMarks looks like pinterest layout has changed a little bit since I cloned it
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KevinMarks they have pin, send and heart buttons now
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kylewm.com edited /social_web_map (+45) "/* See Also */ add XKCD update" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /social_web_map (+29) "repair flowtown.com link via archive.org :(" (view diff)
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Jeena Tomorrow first HWC in Gothenburg!
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gRegorLove Aweome, Jeena! How many are coming?
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Jeena I think we're three
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Jeena it's a start :D
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tantek Jeena++ that's great!
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Loqi Jeena has 13 karma
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tantek from https://twitter.com/Flowtown "Flowtown was acquired by http://Demandforce.com in October 2011. http://tcrn.ch/o5Bx4H"
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gRegorLove Jeena: Chicago was just 2 most of the time, so that's great. But all it takes is 2. :)
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Jeena :D
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tantek @Flowtown's last tweet was https://twitter.com/Flowtown/status/242510565774348288
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@Flowtown Think SEO is a Game? It Kinda is – Here’s the Proof [Infographic] /via @Unbounce http://unbounce.com/seo/think-seo-is-a-game-it-kinda-is-heres-the-proof-infographic/ (twitter.com/_/status/242510565774348288)
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Jeena But I'm on vaccation in two weeks we'll see if someone else takes over of if we just pause one time.
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tantek Last self-reported update of their site being up: https://twitter.com/Flowtown/status/154699286683193344
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@Flowtown Flowtown blog is back up and fully operational. (twitter.com/_/status/154699286683193344)
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tantek http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/13/marketing-startup-flowtown-gets-swooped-up-by-demandforce/ - Demandforce domain still up, Flowtown down. Can only conclude aquicide
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tantek prior use with that meaning! https://twitter.com/izs/status/320601068650242050
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@izs Someone should create a @vark clone, but with a business model this time (maybe bounties for answers?) I miss it so much. #acquicide (twitter.com/_/status/320601068650242050)
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loqi.me created /acquicide (+316) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /acquicide (+22) "expand tweet permalink, see also section" (view diff)
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tantek whoa, way more references to acquishutdown
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tantek.com moved /acquicide to /acquishutdown "more uses of this term to mean this thing"
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Jeena I want to have something like this on my site: https://brooksreview.net/category/links/ how would you guys mark it up as citation or bookmark?
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@PIMIebooks RT @book_tribe: • R. O. Akande: #DISPATCH TALES A collection of Poems on Pain Grief Agony Politics Death Hope Loss Dreams IndieAuth http://… (twitter.com/_/status/626149996115550208)
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aaronpk Jeena: that looks like bookmarks to me, similar to http://aaronparecki.com/bookmarks
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Jeena but it is more like citation collection
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aaronpk all the text in that example is original text though, not from the link
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aaronpk so it's not really a citation at all
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Jeena it is not like he bookmarks it to read later, he has the citates for people as a teaser
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aaronpk oh his are half and half, citations vs original text
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aaronpk look at how some of them are in blockqotes and others not
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Jeena what? no it a citation, or I see what you mean if you scroll down a bit then yeah, ok
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aaronpk some have both a quote and original text
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Jeena hm yeah you're right, I didn't scroll down :D
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Jeena but I think I'd like to have just the citations, hm
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tantek.com edited /acquishutdown (+567) "add references to acquishutdown" (view diff)
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Jeena because the other ones are just notes with a citation, that is nothing special
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aaronpk i think bookmark covers it
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark#How_to_markup
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tantek aaronpk - time to change the indiewebcamp.com header?
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Jeena I guess I would then have a cite with the blockquote text and a h-author and a bookmark around everything
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aaronpk Jeena: yeah, you'd post your own h-entry which has an h-cite inside
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KevinMarks__ Anyone have somewhere in sf I could do TWiG from tomorrow? I want to be up for hwc, and it will be 103F here again so podcasting from my garden would be hard
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tantek what time is TWiG?
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tantek what is TWiG?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "TWiG" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100g
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aaronpk oo are you going to talk about SWAT0?
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KevinMarks__ I plan to yes
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KevinMarks__ And if I can show Reading Social Streams too...
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kylewm whoa, one of my digital ocean droplets is super messed up
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tantek what is a droplet?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "droplet" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100h
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tantek what is Reading Social Streams?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Reading Social Streams" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100i
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aaronpk i want to make a visualization of the wiki over time
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aaronpk someone has to have made this for mediawiki
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KevinMarks someone at ibm did it
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tantek what would you want to see visualized?
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aaronpk the number of pages, and links between them
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aaronpk like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTMC3g2Xy8c
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tantek could be an interesting goal/todo for /2015-review
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kylewm Droplet is the cute name [[Digital Ocean]] uses for its virtual private server instances.
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loqi.me created /Droplet (+116) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-28/line/1438122090955 and dfn added by kylewm" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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kylewm.com edited /Droplet (-1) "fix redlink" (view diff)
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aaronpk actually i wonder what would happen if i converted all the wiki edit history to a git repo, then just ran Gource on it
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KevinMarks_ Tantek, any chance of a cubby at Mozilla from 1-3.30?
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tantek very good chance
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KevinMarks_ Ok, LMK if you can find me a corner to podcast from
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KevinMarks_ I can bring mic etc
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aaronpk omg git has mediawiki support built in
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tantek what does that even mean?
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aaronpk git clone mediawiki::http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki
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aaronpk it makes a git repo of the wiki on your hard drive
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tantek and can it propagate changes back?
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tantek push origin master blah blah blah?
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tantek and can it get incremental updates?
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aaronpk it can
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tantek huh
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aaronpk which means i should be able to push a copy of the wiki to a github repo as another backup
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tantek wondering how it solves the case-insensitivity in the OS problem
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tantek since git stores files as OS files
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aaronpk me too. i have yet to see what the files look like on disk, i'm still cloning it
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aaronpk 18,399 revisions to get
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Loqi !calc 18,399 revisions to get
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tantek would be interesting to compare to the BT Sync version
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tantek also interesting to know how long that takes
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kylewm what on earth, that's literally built in to git? not a plugin or something?
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tantek the one version control system to assimilate them all?
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kylewm that's wild! https://github.com/git/git/tree/master/contrib/mw-to-git
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kylewm http://stevelosh.com/blog/2013/04/git-koans/#one-thing-well
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@call_user_func [New]jonnybarnes/indieweb IndieWeb helper functions https://packagist.org/packages/jonnybarnes/indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/626162756484403202)
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tantek kylewm++ after reading that I feel a bit more enlightened
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Loqi kylewm has 204 karma
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kylewm one of my favorites
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aaronpk oh man this poor server
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aaronpk finished the git clone in 32 minutes
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aaronpk it writes files just like my btsync export, so will have the same trouble on non-case-sensitive filesystems
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tantek and what solution did it choose?
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aaronpk none as far as i can tell
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tantek so which file "won"/
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tantek ?
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aaronpk same failure as cloning a git repo that has case-sensitive files
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aaronpk i cloned it on linux, so not sure
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aaronpk also darn, it didn't treat "/" as a folder, so there's no hierarchy here
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KevinMarks can you run it in a case sensitive disk image?
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aaronpk probably
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aaronpk well that was a fun exercise, but i like the result of my own export better
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kylewm can you still run gorce on it?
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aaronpk yeah but there are no folders so it doesn't look very interesting
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aaronpk the wiki is pretty flat anyway, but at least we have folders like 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, events
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kylewm oh yeah, and it wouldn't know about links between files
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KevinMarks so, a pinterest layout should just be a few properties in flexbox?
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@benwerd @econproph The #indieweb community has been great at creating an ecosystem. Working code over mailing lists and standards bodies. (twitter.com/_/status/626176817469075456)
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KevinMarks http://niemanreports.org/articles/what-apis-can-do-for-news/#comment-2162267853
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+831) "update edit+delete syntax based on brainstorming and votes" (view diff)
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+84) "/* Explicit CRUD */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks http://shorensteincenter.org/open-news-platforms-david-weinberger/#the%20sites%20automatically%20scan%20the%20linked%20pages%20for%20Schema.org%20markup
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KevinMarks no they don't
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: yes for pinteret layout in flexbox
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GWG aaronpk: You reverted it?
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GWG bangs head against desk
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aaronpk haha i thought you hada chance to look at that already
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GWG I just thought I was getting it too.
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aaronpk it's a very small change
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aaronpk i was able to update my server in like 5 minutes
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GWG aaronpk: It isn't you, it's me
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KevinMarks I found http://demosthenes.info/blog/844/Easy-Masonry-Layout-With-Flexbox but I think it goes down then across
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aaronpk i'm sorry! but better now than later
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KevinMarks and so does http://demosthenes.info/blog/825/Pinterest-Style-Column-Layout-In-Pure-CSS
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KevinMarks whereas masonry goes across then down
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aaronpk it wasn't a full revert, just explicitly setting mp-action=edit&url={url}
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tantek KevinMarks: I don't understand that weinberger article you linked to
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GWG aaronpk: I'm just having one of those periods where everything is changing and I need some certainty in my life.
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KevinMarks he's written a long and short version of it
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GWG I'm aware that indiewebcamp is not where I should be expecting things to stay stable.
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KevinMarks both of which confuse schema with other kinds of markup