#indiewebcamp 2015-08-23

2015-08-23 UTC
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@kelflanagan
RT @windley: Internet Identity Workshop early bird pricing ends today. http://mailchimp.com/about/mcsv/ #iiw #indieweb #vrm #blockchain http://t.co/D…
(twitter.com/_/status/635245502800396288)
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EGreg
hey all
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EGreg
First time here! Anyone from NYC?
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snarfed
EGreg: GWG is!
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mblaney
I got sending webmentions from posts working today. Sorry for all the tests I sent to your site aaronpk!
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[aaronpk]
Haha no problem. Was that you that just sent me this? https://unicyclic.com/mal/2015-08-23-Webmentions
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mblaney
yes that was me :-)
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GWG
EGreg: Looking for New Yorkers?
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EGreg
yup
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EGreg
What kind of stuff are you guys working on?
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GWG
EGreg: Well, what do you know about Indiewebcamp so far? Just to figure out where to start the explanation?
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GWG
I keep working on Indieweb tools for WordPress. You have people doing all sorts of things though.
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@osvik
Why the independent web matters? It gives you control and longevity for your content http://www.digitalactivist.net/articles/why-the-independent-web-matters/ #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/635328165511098368)
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EGreg
I'm back
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EGreg
I don't know much about Indiewebcamp
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EGreg
My company's been working on a platform to decentralize social networking
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EGreg
Basically to do to Facebook.com and Google Plus what Wordpress did to Blogger and LiveJournal.
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EGreg
I feel like various things are slowly being decentralized. Bitcoin decentralized money. The web and email were always decentralized. But social is still centralized. That's why GitHub for example is centralized even though git is distributed.
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EGreg
I realize that indiewebcamp is about open standards, and I'm hoping that after our platform is past version 1.0, we can document our REST API so that others can interoperate with it.
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KevinMarks
that's not so much an open standards as what we wold call a monoculture
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KevinMarks
what is monoculture?
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Loqi
Monoculture refers to the antipattern of one piece of software dominating (or trying to dominate) its field, often by being limited to communicating with other instances of the same codebase https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
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GWG
EGreg: The methods we are developing are with the goal they would work the same on any platform.
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EGreg
Yes, I read your website
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EGreg
A standard is often ignored unless there is a large reference implementation.
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GWG
EGreg: Known
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EGreg
The reference implementation could end up as a monoculture, or it could temporarily be a monoculture until a standard is published that's compatible with its API.
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GWG
But, in general, I can talk to KevinMarks site, for example, without knowing anything about how he implemented things.
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EGreg
But, the reference implementation must take off in order for the standard to matter. And in that time, it is likely to have a giant head start on competing products. So, I think almost every new standard starts as a monoculture at first.
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EGreg
Right, implementation details should not matter beyond whatever is documented in the API.
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GWG
Indiewebcamp, interestingly, didn't start that way. The standards are developed collaboratively
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GWG
So, someone came up with, for example, Micropub.
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GWG
The standard is in the wiki
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EGreg
Okay, but where are the implementations of the standards?
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GWG
Lots of edits going on.
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GWG
Also noted in same
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GWG
What is Micropub?
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Loqi
Micropub is an open API standard that is used to create posts on one's own domain using third-party clients https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
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GWG
The page has dozens of examples of people using it
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GWG
We try to keep up to date on who supports what thing we discuss here
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EGreg
When it comes to something big, it's hard to just write a standard first, and then an implementation. Usually, a particular product takes off as a first generation, and a standard is then based around it, such as XMPP based on AIM/ICQ/MSN
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EGreg
Well at least, I can tell you from our experience... we spent 4 years building http://platform.qbix.com ... and we are still refactoring it until we reach Version 1. So, if we had to write a standard on day 1, we'd be way off :(
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KartikPrabhu
EGreg: you miss understand. indieweb standards are developed and iterated along with implementations.
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EGreg
We plan to make it interoperable later, and support several protocols. But, first we had to make it popular and funded.
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EGreg
OK, so we have an implementation, now what standards should we help develop with indieweb?
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GWG
EGreg: You can start with the ones we have already that are worth trying.
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KartikPrabhu
also implementations exist on multiple different sites using multiple programming languages, CMSs, etc...
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GWG
EGreg: What do you want to do though? I think if you look, you'll see some of the goals each of us has had that has brought us to develop what we have.
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GWG
On that note, must excuse myself. Sleep needed
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GWG
Will be happy to pick this up.
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EGreg
Sure. Good night :)
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Loqi
night
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KartikPrabhu
EGreg: do you use this "Q-system" on your own site?
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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EGreg
Oh, I see you guys are browsing the site
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EGreg
I was wondering what was going on in those logs :)
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EGreg
Yes we use this Q platform everywhere in our own products :)
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KartikPrabhu
No I mean on your own personal website
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Zegnat
Good morning :)
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Zegnat
Anyone working on something exciting today?
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rhiaro
Morning Zegnat. Checkins! You?
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Zegnat
Working on the GUI for my webmentions endpoint
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Zegnat
rhiaro: are you planning to add locations to every post / note?
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rhiaro
Zegnat: No. I currently sometimes store lat/lon from Quill but don't display it. Might do at some point, but that's not what I'm doing at the moment. Sometimes I add an explicit *named* location to a post (like a city, rather than coordinates) and sometimes I add a named vague location (like "home")
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rhiaro
I'm working on tidying all that up and visualising them, as well as having a 'currently at' and/or 'last spotted'
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rhiaro
But posts with lat/lon don't qualify as 'checkins'; posts with explicit named locations more so
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rhiaro
I think I have a blog post about this..
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Zegnat
Interesting take. I am thinking of a similar way, except I do want to display my location on everything. But at the same time there are privacy concerns with that
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voxpelli
Good morning! Will probably work more on the curlability of my WebMentions comments presentation today :)
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Loqi
voxpelli: colintedford left you a message 2 days, 11 hours ago: I stubbed /issue-tracker . Haven't captured your brainstorming there yet. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-20/line/1440113389545
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Jeena
I have to work on my Events
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voxpelli
Oh, right, I should do that as well :P
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Zegnat
what is curlability?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "curlability" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/101z
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voxpelli
curlability is the notion of content being available in plain HTML, without the need to run any javascript. If you can't curl it, it's not on the web. Refers to the CLI-tool "curl".
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loqi.me
created /curlability (+208) "prompted by Zegnat https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440328675231 and dfn added by voxpelli"
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Zegnat
voxpelli++ that sounded a lot better than the dfn I was writing
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Loqi
voxpelli has 38 karma
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kodfabrik.se
edited /IndieMark (+4) "link to curlability page"
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Zegnat
Hm, I should probably work on getting SSL as well
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myfreeweb
I've released microformats2-parser (Haskell) v1.0.0 https://unrelenting.technology/mf2/ should be compatible with all the things now
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Zegnat
what are all the things?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "all the things" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/1020
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Zegnat
All the things are, literally, all the things.
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Zegnat
Darn Loqi, you let me down :(
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myfreeweb
it's there already
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myfreeweb
(on microformats2#Parsers)
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myfreeweb
why is the list of parsers duplicated on two wiki pages?
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Zegnat
Don’t know why. /parser says that /microformats2 is the main list, but I imagine a lot of people end up on /parser first (like I just did)
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aaronpk
good morning
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GWG
Good morning, aaronpk
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GWG
!tell acegiak How do you feel about jam vs listen?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
i thought they were different things
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GWG
aaronpk: I'm still confused about that.
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GWG
One is an active post to share a song you have listened to, the other is a passive post to share what you are listening to. Seems not worth a distinction.
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GWG
But I may be missing things
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aaronpk
that seems accurate
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aaronpk
seems like more of a distinction in how it's displayed/shared rather than any sort of format difference
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aaronpk
i've never used thisismyjam before
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GWG
aaronpk: Neither did I. Also not a scrobbler. That's why I wanted to bring in acegiak, who is big on sharing.
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GWG
Since my arm is feeling better, I'm back to trying to do a little website work, by continuing my refinement of the Post Kinds plugin. I want to finish because this version is the one compatible with Micropub.
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GWG
Thus the jam question
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@hertling
If you support EFF & an open internet, check out IndieWeb, a movement to take ownership of data & web back from big corporations. #Sasquan
(twitter.com/_/status/635520613331832832)
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snarfed
!tell gRegorLove,GWG
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snarfed
hrm. let's try that again
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GWG
I'm here
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GWG
What do you want to tell me?
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snarfed
!tell gRegorLove,GWG,jgarber,diplix,wirres,aaronpk,ben_thatmustbeme,kylewm just added an FB API workaround to bridgy that may send you more FB responses on old posts of yours. curious if you see any within the next day or so. enjoy!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@ArthurSmid
RT @hertling: If you support EFF & an open internet, check out IndieWeb, a movement to take ownership of data & web back from big corporati…
(twitter.com/_/status/635524678195396609)
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snarfed
!tell acegiak,pfefferle hey guys! semantic-linkbacks isn't finding author pictures any more for me. :/ e.g. https://snarfed.org/2015-08-20_15271 not sure if it's wordpress 4.3 or new semantic-linkbacks changes or both. any ideas?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed
!tell acegiak,pfefferle (i'm on pfefferle's fork)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
snarfed: Have you made any other changes to viewing avatars?
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Loqi
GWG: snarfed left you a message 1 hour, 21 minutes ago: just added an FB API workaround to bridgy that may send you more FB responses on old posts of yours. curious if you see any within the next day or so. enjoy! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440355381370
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KartikPrabhu
Loqi messages?
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[snarfed]
GWG: huh. great hunch! i was about to say no... but you're right, they're gone on older posts too. so probably a css bug. thanks!
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GWG
snarfed, I submitted some patches after WordPress 4.2 that changed the avatar behavior to be better, but lost backward compatibility. Are you up to date on version?
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[snarfed]
GWG: in pfefferle's fork, yes
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GWG
snarfed I meant are you running WordPress 4.3?
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[snarfed]
ah. yes
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GWG
When you look at the comment, does it have the URL for the right picture?
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[snarfed]
not sure. haven't debugged much, and can't now, but i will soon
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GWG
Tell me if you need anyone to bounce ideas off.
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi
tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 8/21 at 9:38pm: file deletion request: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-21#t1440217293265 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-21/line/1440218303202
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aaronpk
good evening!
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Loqi
aaronpk: snarfed left you a message 3 hours, 8 minutes ago: just added an FB API workaround to bridgy that may send you more FB responses on old posts of yours. curious if you see any within the next day or so. enjoy! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440355381370
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aaronpk
woohoo
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aaronpk
interesting side effect of using microformats as my storage, is that I have to have at least an experimental/vendor-specific microformats representation of everything
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tantek
aaronpk - same here!
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Untappd (+169) "add screenshot"
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tantek
though I usually end-up brainstorming about such features openly on the wiki before / while coding them
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aaronpk
so now, instead of rapidly making progress on my new site, I have to figure out a good representation of food posts
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tantek
and can iterate on the design publicly instead of picking a random site-specific format
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aaronpk
the problem i'm facing right now is if I don't figure *all these things* out right now, launching my new site will be a significant regression
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tantek
I think that's ok for major site re-writes
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aaronpk
I want to find a way to not be blocked on launching it though
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tantek
because the problem with "figure all these things out right now" is that that set is every growing
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tantek
and you fall ever behind with such "big" tasks
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aaronpk
so maybe I should accept a regression on any "features" that I am not confident of the implementation of
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tantek
start with making sure everything has an acceptable "plain text" rendering, then iterate publicly from there
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tantek
that doesn't require lots of storage modeling at all
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aaronpk
that's fine as long as I have a clear path to turn the plaintext version into the better modeled version in the future
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tantek
take screenshots of your existing special post presentations and upload them to the wiki for each of those special post types
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tantek
treat your "old" site as just another legacy site to document for research purposes
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tantek
and then rebuild your new one without any shackles of needing to do the exact same thing
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tantek
you don't need a "clear path"
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tantek
that's my point
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tantek
the stuff to make sure works in a transition: permalinks, human visible content (even it downgraded to just a plain text version)
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aaronpk
i guess the specific thing i'm struggling with now is I show different icons for food/drink based on what it is, with fallback for food and drink specifically
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tantek
everything else you can rebuild incrementally
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aaronpk
when I enter things on teacup, I distinguish between eat and drink
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aaronpk
so how do I capture that in my new storage when I don't have a mf2 vocab for it
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tantek
step 1: screenshot and upload how you show different icons for food/drink based on what it is, with fallback for food and drink specifically
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tantek
step 2: ship without those icons at first
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aaronpk
i'm fine not *showing* the icons at first, but if I don't store them somehow then I lose that data
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tantek
how are you storing it now?
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aaronpk
extra properties on h-entry
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aaronpk
well, effectively
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aaronpk
so i could store that as a p3k-* property on the h-entry in my new storage and just ignore it for now, with the intent of changing that to whatever better solution i have in the future
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aaronpk
and the text would just be the content of the post, so I don't need to store that separately, and then it will just display as a regular text post for now
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aaronpk
that seems like a reasonable path forward for now
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tantek
right
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[snarfed]
!tell acegiak,pfefferle,GWG never mind, false alarm. css bug on my part. maybe due to changed classes
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG
tantek: Can you weigh in, as a jammer, on Scrobble/Listen vs. Jam?
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Loqi
GWG: [snarfed] left you a message 5 minutes ago: never mind, false alarm. css bug on my part. maybe due to changed classes http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-23/line/1440368377063
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KevinMarks
scrobble/listen is passive; jam is active
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mblaney
hi all. I'm going to work on adding in-repy-to to my webmentions today.
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tantek
mblaney that's great! Does that mean you're posting /reply posts already?
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tantek
GWG, jam vs. scrobble/listen is totally different from a poster's/author's point of view
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tantek
as KevinMarks said, the biggest difference is active vs passive listening
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tantek
however, even if I just chose to listen to a track on my iTunes or iPod or whatever, and then listened to it, that's still "just" a listen
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tantek
posting a track as your "jam" means it's not just a track you've listened to recently or are listening to, but has some significance to you at that point in time, perhaps something you might even note in the text content of the jam.
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mblaney
tantek: no I was reading about in-reply-to and realised I need to add the concept of replying to my posts to do that.
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mblaney
shouldn't be too hard though.
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tantek
mblaney do you @-reply to people on Twitter?
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tantek
GWG, want to add that question and answer as an FAQ to /jam ?
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tantek
(assuming the answer made sense to you, if not, keeep asking questions and I'll try to keep clarifying the difference)
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mblaney
no I don't do much of anything :-) started working through indiewebify.me this weekend, and that is the extent of my experience so far.
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tantek
mblaney that's great - so you don't use Twitter at all and thus have no legacy to deal with there?
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mblaney
no I use twitter but that's further down my list of priorities.
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mblaney
I figured since you guys came up with the indiewebify levels they were the most important features to add.
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tantek
they are in general, as folks have implemented features on their own sites
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tantek
from what I recall however is that if you do use Twitter, then POSSEing your notes to Twitter is more important than getting replies to work (in terms of IndieMark)
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tantek
i.e. POSSEing your notes (e.g. to Twitter, since that's the notes silo you use) is Level 2 https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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tantek
whereas replies and sending webmentions is Level 3
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mblaney
oops maybe I'm looking at the wrong levels then :-) I'll go back over that list first,
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tantek
definitely feel free to ask questions if any of it is not obvious!
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tantek.com
edited /next-hwc (+0) "next is 26th"
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tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+30) "next hwc locations"
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (+92) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ comment out edinburgh to re-use it later"
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tantek.com
edited /events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club (+133) "regrets for current venues, but I'll be in Seattle/Redmond"
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tantek
!tell kylewm looks like I'm missing the next HWC too - could you setup a venue for SF for https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-09-09-homebrew-website-club ? Thanks!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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mblaney
the IndieMark page is much more detailed than indiewebify.me... I don't have a concept of post types in my software so need to have a think about that.
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tantek
mblaney what are the types of posts you like to post most often? notes, replies, likes/favorites, blog posts / articles with names, bookmarks? etc.
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tantek
(anywhere, on your own site or silos)
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mblaney
blog posts, but if I could mark a post as a reply while I was writing it I would.
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tantek
do you write your own blog posts more often? or do you @-reply to people on Twitter more often?
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loqi.me
created /publics (+231) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by KevinMarks"
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mblaney
I mostly use twitter for reading, so would probably write my own posts more often than @-replies
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tantek
ok cool. then /note and /article posts are a good place to start for multiple post types!
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mblaney
that's where I'm not sure what the difference would be, in my posting interface titles are optional, so articles and notes are treated the same.
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tantek.com
edited /publics (+455) "linky, articles, see also"
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tantek
mblaney the presence of an explicit article name is just one difference between articles and notes
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mblaney
thanks for the link tantek, I understand there are differences, I just wonder if I need to make it explicit.
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mblaney
I think I might try working on the next step (syndication), and see what type of trouble I hit not having explicit post types.
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GWG
"Follow Ben Werdmüller, Kyle Mahan and President Obama on Twitter!" - the juxtapositioning amuses me.
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tantek
mblaney: that makes sense
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tantek
GWG, that sounds screenshotworthy :)
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GWG
I'm trying to figure out continuing to add Post Kinds to the post kind plugin, and to when it becomes too much
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tantek
as long as you start with a (very) small set of post kinds for the default install, and allow users to "install" additional kinds (even if that's just enabling them in preferences with checkboxes), that's probably ok
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GWG
tantek: I just changed it to a select box, with Article, Reply, Note, and Photo being defalt
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tantek
also - I'd advise *only* shipping new post kinds in the plugin that you yourself are using on at least a weekly basis, and thus have a good "feel" for how they work
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GWG
I'm also hiding the 5 I haven't built yet.
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tantek
e.g. don't bother with adding a "jam" post kind until you find yourself posting jams
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GWG
But I set 'reserved' terms for.
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tantek
sounds reasonable
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GWG
The last time I posted something that I'd define as a Jam, I did it as a Like
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snarfed
is now working on scraping google+ with a cookie, just like facebook
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tantek
hmm... I realized I wrote a note as a post on Instagram and I'm thinking of manually PESOSing it to my site.
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aaronpk
tantek: you need to get micropub working so you get those automatically with ownyourgram :)
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GWG
snarfed: I have a loaded question for you. I want to write on the wiki why to use and not to use the Post Kinds plugin. Because it is by no means the only/best solution. Any thoughts?
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tantek
I have a feeling getting ownyourgram and micropub working will greatly alter my IG usage (likley increase it)
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aaronpk
while I still post less than you, I feel like it has done that for me
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tantek
GWG, I think that kind of upfront documentation is very helpful
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tantek
aaronpk: you post fewer what? photos?
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snarfed
GWG: no thoughts, sorry, mostly since i don't use it myself
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aaronpk
increase how much I use instagram
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tantek
GWG, hey that "like" https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/23/many/ is much more like a review!
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tantek
It would be a "jam" if that's really what you felt like at the time.
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GWG
tantek: That song is one I play at that time of year.
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GWG
I find it very emotional.
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tantek
GWG, that definitely sounds like a jam then
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GWG
I have Listen in Post Kinds, but not Jams
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tantek
yes, you get it! that's the essence of a jam. it has some stronger-than-usual personal emotional impact
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GWG
snarfed: That was why I asked. I thought you'd have a good case.
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GWG
Shouldn't I reclassify it first?
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tantek
no, capture the example first
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tantek
we've done things like group as prototype before I think
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tantek
for other post types
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tantek
let me check checkin
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tantek
hmm - since your post has everything in it to constitute a jam, you should just add it, and make a note that when posted, you didn't know of the concept of jam so posted it as a like
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tantek
that's also a reasonable fallback
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tantek
jam -> like that is
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david.shanske.com
edited /jam (+137) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
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GWG
I've been setting up 'hidden features' of late. For example, because of aaronpk I've decided to have 'hidden' Teacup support.
#
GWG
Basically, if it comes in on Micropub, I'll write the display code, but no local Post UI right now