#indiewebcamp 2015-10-20
2015-10-20 UTC
# 
andicascadesf when you say an IM
# andicascadesf which tools are you using?
# andicascadesf but the messages are still stored on iCloud
# ageis snarfed: "what works and what doesn't work. Show the # of steps it takes to encrypt and decrypt mail" she's demonstrating the PGP usability problem - what doesn't work and needs improvement, not what does work
# 
KartikPrabhu ageis: the only way to show that something doesn't work to lay people is to show something else that does
# andicascadesf This brings up a good point
# andicascadesf Who is reading these messages?
# andicascadesf we’re not just protecting our info from the NSA, we also have to consider employers, significant others, etc.
# 
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "TextSecure" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105L
# KartikPrabhu what is iMessage?
# Loqi iMessage is a messaging service by Apple on iOS and MacOS platforms https://indiewebcamp.com/imessage
# andicascadesf Tantek, you can download Signal, which is the Android equivalent.
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Signal" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105M
# andicascadesf hahahhaa
# andicascadesf I’m still getting used to this system.
# KartikPrabhu what is tanteking?
# andicascadesf What is Tantek?
# Loqi Tantek-ing is a method of encouraging people to contribute to the wiki by indirectly prompting the person who first mentioned the term to create a short wiki dfn page for it https://indiewebcamp.com/tanteking
# KartikPrabhu ;)
# Loqi Tantek Çelik is the co-founder of IndieWebCamp and works on open web standards at Mozilla https://indiewebcamp.com/Tantek
# andicascadesf ah
# andicascadesf What is Andi?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Andi" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105N
# andicascadesf boo
# 
tantek Andi is [[User:andigalpern.com]]
# 
loqi.me created /Andi (+33) "prompted by andicascadesf https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-19/line/1445299539236 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
# andicascadesf THanks for helping me out
# andicascadesf I’m going to get back to work.
# andicascadesf it needs some work.
# andicascadesf http://andigalpern.com/#secondPage
# andicascadesf http://andigalpern.com
# andicascadesf and needs to be secure
# andicascadesf and https://cascadesf.com
# andicascadesf yes
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CascadeSF" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105P
# andicascadesf I have to change my open web id
# andicascadesf Since I’m not using idreamofdesign and I think everything is registered under there.
# andicascadesf okay, fixing
# tantek (that's on http://andigalpern.com/ )
# andicascadesf does it go in meta?
# andicascadesf oh duh
# andicascadesf okay
# andicascadesf got it
# tantek and then edit your Twitter profile and add http://andigalpern.com/ to it
# andicascadesf done
# andicascadesf thank you.
# andicascadesf Is there an IWC group on LinkedIn?
# tantek looks pretty good! there's even a validator you can use to check your IndieAuth / Web Sign In e.g. http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fandigalpern.com%2F
# tantek now go to https://indiewebcamp.com/ and try logging in!
# andicascadesf @tantek you should be a UX designer.
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# andicascadesf thanks for explaining this so simply.
# andicascadesf You know more than most.
# tantek andicascadesf: try going to https://indiewebcamp.com/ and see how obvious (or not) it is to login
# andicascadesf It was easy for me to find the login button
# andicascadesf and scan
# andicascadesf I’d like to co-organize another hack day to make the wiki responsive and improve legibility and contrast on the site.
# andicascadesf *before Dec. 3
# andicascadesf 0 supported and verified providers were found!
# andicascadesf twitter.com/andigalpern
# andicascadesf There was an error verifying this provider. Confirm you have a rel="me" link on this site pointing to your website.
# tantek and andigalpern.com passes Indiewebify.me's Web Sign In validator: http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fandigalpern.com%2F
# tantek andicascadesf: in your Twitter profile, drop the "www." and just use http://andigalpern.com/
# andicascadesf lets try again
# andicascadesf Twitter has a lot of crappy design decisions.
# andicascadesf but some good ones too.
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# andicascadesf one more design lesson: http://andigalpern.com/letsfixthis/toomanyoptions.png
# tantek even though when I go to https://twitter.com/andigalpern and click on andigalpern.com it actually does go to http://andigalpern.com/
# andicascadesf We found the following rel=me URLs on your site:
# andicascadesf https://twitter.com/andigalpern doesn’t link back
# andicascadesf https://www.linkedin.com/in/andigalpern doesn’t link back
# andicascadesf https://facebook.com/andigalpern doesn’t link back
# andicascadesf https://dribbble.com/andigalpern doesn’t link back
# andicascadesf So basically, I have to make sure everything links back to http://andigalpern.com
# andicascadesf ??
# andicascadesf ah, can you add that in the wiki?
# tantek andicascadesf: you should absolutely make sure all your silo profiles link back to http://andigalpern.com - it's important as a designer to show such a consistent personal brand design experience
# andicascadesf until i have full access.
# andicascadesf well, I kind of agree.
# tantek it's there in /Getting_Started
# andicascadesf but sometimes I want to promote certain information.
# andicascadesf like an event coming up, without redirecting or designing a separate section.
# andicascadesf yeah but everyone has their own way of doing things.
# andicascadesf and sometimes my way increases conversions and sales for events. ;)
# andicascadesf I’ll hae to brainstorm an alternative.
# andicascadesf I do
# andicascadesf I have to add my andigalpern.com on facebook and other sites
# 
aaronpk oh weird, it's not following the https://t.co/UdIdduUc9F -> http://andigalpern.com/ redirect because of the https-to-http downgrade
# andicascadesf Hey guys
# andicascadesf I really appreciate your help!
# andicascadesf I have to run.
# andicascadesf thank you so much!
# andicascadesf i found a bug?
# andicascadesf where?
# andicascadesf Happy to help and hope it gets fixed!
# andicascadesf WOOHOOO!
# andicascadesf okay still gotta run
# andicascadesf time to do some blogilates.
# andicascadesf :-) of course byebye thanks guys!
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# tantek feedback submitted on that support twitter article, and cassis.js tw_text_proxy updated per https://twittercommunity.com/t/moving-t-co-to-https-only-for-new-links/52380
# tantek heh, github's POSSE to Twitter code (AKA Twitter commit hook) is really dumb at ellipsing (i.e. does so in the middle of a URL, which is unnecessary since Twitter will just t.co the whole thing) https://twitter.com/cassisjs/status/656275085511294976
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@cassisjs [cassis] https://github.com/tantek/cassis/commit/54aa80fe8c6f94f4eed5f1d2b749c2b44640b4a8 Tantek Çelik - tw_text_proxy: http://t.co URLs now always https Per https://t.co/Gaq340DLou... (twitter.com/_/status/656275085511294976)
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@ade_oshineye RT @withknown: Self-hosted Known 0.8.5 has left the building - with better indieweb, micropub and AMP support. http://stream.withknown.com/2015/self-hosted-known-085-has-left-the-building---with-better (twitter.com/_/status/656279584443379712)
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@kevinmarks @shadowfirebird @violetblue #indieweb is out there http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/656282140246585344)
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kevinmarks this one's for those of us still on python 2.x https://twitter.com/nwnk/status/656220627293065216
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@nwnk python typing: if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it had fucking better not be unicode (twitter.com/_/status/656220627293065216)
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@benwerd @DeadSuperHero That's right. I think it'd be neat to see @withknown talk to #Diaspora - and for #Diaspora to speak the #indieweb protocols. (twitter.com/_/status/656290829988827136)
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# aaronpk ohhh here we go https://letsencrypt.org/2015/10/19/lets-encrypt-is-trusted.html
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# kevinmarks oho - did you make an native app?or a webapp?
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# Loqi [bridgy] Drabfish O'Weird replied '@kevinmarks Cool! thank you!' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/shadowfirebird/status/656340239661834240)
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@violetblue RT @kevinmarks: @shadowfirebird @violetblue #indieweb is out there http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/656350435050045441)
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# @kevinmarks RT @adactio: Brightonians—Homebrew Website Club is on Wednesday, 6pm @68MiddleSt https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-10-21-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/656354284120858624)
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kodfabrik.se edited /feed_discovery (+2) "/* Off home feeds */ Updating with reference to rel-feed page" (view diff)
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@antoinelyset RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @kevinmarks: AMP, Facebook Instant Articles and Apple News are like 3 new browsers that only support a subset of … (twitter.com/_/status/656395978031955968)
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# George_ is there a recommended IndieWeb way to track a topic (like subscribing to a hashtag)?
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# 
petermolnar George_ that question unfortunately lacks context. What kind of topic? Topic as a post w/ reactions to them?
# petermolnar I do not thing there's an option to subscribe to something on the whole internet
# George_ Hi yes I mean within blogs / authors who are following indieweb practices for replies etc
# George_ so a sort of within IndieWeb search (which could then allow you to follow a topic)
# petermolnar since there is no central entity for the indie web (aka the internet); the sort answer is no, there is no way
# petermolnar the long answer
# George_ :)
# petermolnar in case you have a reader (see: https://indiewebcamp.com/reader ) and the reactions are represented on a site in a parsable format ( mf2, rss, etc ) it is doable, but I'm not aware of an existing solution
# petermolnar my own solution is a plain rss/mf2 parser, sending email notifications about new posts of followed blogs, but not for the discussions or not by per topic; that is done by sieve filters afterwards
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# George_ OK so it could not 'discover' a new mention of a topic for you, unless ofc linked by a post from a source you subscribe to?
# petermolnar webmention is supposed to be p2p
# petermolnar so 3rd party will not be notified
# petermolnar there are two ways of how this could be done
# petermolnar a, a centralized pubsub
# petermolnar b, every site accepts follow requests and sends webmentions to all the requesters when the receive a new mention from somewhere
# petermolnar b, is a massive overhead and would require implementation on every site ( eg. a change in the webmention protocol itself, making it require some sort of storage for all the subscribers ) and even if it's a decentralised solution, it may be a bit too tricky
# George_ if someone developed a crawler are there distinctive features of indieweb participant sites which could be used to index only those results?
# petermolnar oh, I believe this was discussed a few days (weeks?) ago, let me search the relevant lines
# George_ thanks looking now
# George_ general thinking is that a decentralized topic subscription could help the ecosystem
# George_ a crawler with a good starting point potentially could allow users to create their own crawl and index
# petermolnar pubsubhubbub is there for it
# petermolnar kevinmarks, are you around?
# George_ OK I read that :)
# George_ I think what I am wondering about is (1) a decentralized alternative to google alerts or twitter search, which (2) can be more manageable by having a limited scope e.g. only indieweb participating sites detected by xyz schema; and (3) by use of schema/microdata allow context/content signals to be hoovered up by the crawler so that the user can better filter the firehose
# 
voxpelli George_: check out https://superfeedr.com/tracker
# voxpelli I have my https://github.com/voxpelli/relspider, which I yet have on my to do to actually set up a continuously running instance of
# George_ Thanks looking :)
# George_ Google Alerts is closed source, run by skynet, and may disappear any day... pretty much the opposite of IndieWeb ideas :D
# George_ open one with more control
# George_ I should say that the way I came to this line of thinking as a day 1 newcomer to IndieWeb site, my first reaction on reading the onboarding notes was to ask - where is the system to contribute to or track an arbitrary topic
# voxpelli http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ is an interesting take on it as well
# George_ what is the equivalent of a Twitter hashtag in a decentralized group of bloggers talking about the same thing?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "equivalent of a Twitter hashtag in a decentralized group of bloggers talking about the same thing" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105Q
# voxpelli http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ is the closest to hashtag
# George_ it is curated... so not a firehose
# George_ well a hastag is nothing more than a search with a loose indicator from the # character to create a unique term
# George_ it is not publishing a public url feed page
# George_ it is enabling the user to track in none or lots of detail any number of topics which are being talked out, in a platform agnostic way, but aided by microdata
# George_ OK I see that
# George_ this then goes into some moderation queue for being visible on the news URL ?
# George_ OK so potentially any number of pseudo classes could be adopted to help guide a web crawler which is oriented to tracking mentions
# George_ Is this idea of tagging category or categories for a post to a public URL going to be encouraged in onboarding new users I wonder
# George_ I think this question is quite important for IndieWeb
# George_ as one of the angles is to take people out of centralized places like wordpress.com and twitter, but at the same time you are taking away their visibility from search and tagging
# George_ I think the pinging idea sounds a bit old fashioned
# George_ it should be that the user just publishes content and it can be crawled and discovered - which is how the centralized systems do it
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# George_ to get people to adopt the decentralized approach there must still be an easy way to ensure what poeple are saying can be discovered by people that they do not know
# George_ I see
# George_ for starters that needs a new name :D
# George_ I think it is true but not relevant to say google already solved powerful indexing
# George_ for example a huge strength of anything "indie" would be not having to use Google at all, for example countries where it is blocked
# George_ yes this is why I am wondering about the ways for a decentralized network to achieve the ability to track topics
# George_ to reduce the scope of the question I think the first part is which user-controlled crawler can be set up to focus only (for this case) on sites participating in the markup such as the u-category mentioned here
# George_ firstly a definitive signpost "IndieWeb happening here"
# voxpelli so far the https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people has been the IndieWeb-list to start with
# George_ if there are plans to be worldwide or scale I would say nothing should depend on lists or groups of users
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# petermolnar eg. forking our own superfeedr
# George_ anyway I have to disappear - I appreciate the realtime support and lots of stuff to read :)
# petermolnar yes, I am aware of it
# petermolnar but it would cost me money, which is obviously better than spyware advertisement
# petermolnar voxpelli I believe the initial question from George_ included a quest for the reactions as well
# petermolnar so it should probably support tracking those as well
# petermolnar I may have misunderstood it
# petermolnar it could be a mixture of a crawler and a poller as well; such as starts on the irc-people sites, looks for urls on the site, incl. responses, follows urls, if url the supports re-me things and looks like indieweb, add it to the list
# petermolnar right, I misunderstood that part, and indeed, not really
# petermolnar I have to leave now, I'll read up this topic later
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# 
@hs0ucy Cool, l'outil de partage de contenu web de #Firefox accepte aussi #Known. #IndieWeb http://h.soucy.cc/2015/cool-loutil-de-partage-de-contenu-web-de-firefox-accepte (twitter.com/_/status/656459167528570880)
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# 
@LukasRosenstock Wanna feel nostalgic? Here's a presentation on #OpenID I made 8 years ago. Sites shown on slides all dead: http://de.slideshare.net/LukasRos/openid-for-starters-barcamp-berlin-ii?utm_content=buffera752a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/656473734442807296)
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harryreeder.co.uk created /events/2015-10-20-homebrew-website-club (+2168) "Late entry of 2015-10-20 HWC Edi" (view diff)
# harryreeder.co.uk edited /Main_Page (+8) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ HWC Edi 2015-10-20" (view diff)
# 
ShaneHudson_ Not sure if you all saw it already but Andy Clarke just announced an update to his book and it now has MF2 :) https://stuffandnonsense.co.uk/blog/about/hardboiled-web-design-fifth-anniversary-edition
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# 
bear I have some freetime this week so I may tackle the issues listed here: https://github.com/bear/indie-stats/issues
# snarfed !tell petermolnar,voxpelli,cweiske just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget
# Loqi voxpelli: snarfed left you a message 1 minute ago: just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360826428
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# kevinmarks anyone got recommendations for ssl cert vendor for appengine use?
# kevinmarks poetica wordpress plugin -interesting https://poetica.com/
# fran.io edited /events/2015-10-20-homebrew-website-club (+14) "/* Edinburgh */ + fran.io" (view diff)
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Poetica" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/105R
# alexarmstrong.net created /Template:alexarmstrong.net (+154) "Add template for Alex Armstrong" (view diff)
# alexarmstrong.net edited /events/2015-10-20-homebrew-website-club (+24) "/* Edinburgh */" (view diff)
# 
@CaptainKurtis @d_seaman @twitter This might be a good time for you to research #indiewebcamp. We need to move away from corporate social media NOW! (twitter.com/_/status/656525390517678080)
# alexarmstrong.net created /User:Alexarmstrong.net (+53) "Created page with "
{{alexarmstrong.net}} → http://alexarmstrong.net"" (view diff)cleverdevil joined the channel
# @CaptainKurtis @sketchy1poker @d_seaman @ioerror It's #indiewebcamp time! Check out @withknown! (twitter.com/_/status/656527334560821249)
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# petermolnar GWG those things happen; if you want to see an actual brutal development area, go check the linux kernel dev threads :)
# Loqi petermolnar: snarfed left you a message 55 minutes ago: just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360826428
# Loqi petermolnar: snarfed left you a message 52 minutes ago: scratch that, i was wrong. it does have a base price of $2/feed/month. still a great service though. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360996547
# petermolnar and to be honest, they do have solid reasons for being like that: the kernel actively used by the majority of the internet, so for keeping it fast & agile, there is no real space for British politeness
# petermolnar sure, but I do agree with Linus on this: code above everything WHEN and only when it's actually about code
# petermolnar everywhere else, when you don't need that level of directness, speed and clarity in your text, be polite, of course
# petermolnar develop some hard-realtime embedded systems with safety requirements and try to make a change; you'll realize that if you can't back it up and it's not without bugs, you'll need to take a step back and fix it
# petermolnar oh, that should never, ever be a reason to give up
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# petermolnar we wouldn't have Tesla cars now if Elon Musk wasn't that persistent
# petermolnar the second is a relatively valid reason which I had thought about as well, since I'm getting tired of WP and have no idea what I'll do with my plugins
# petermolnar probably abandon them
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# 
cleverdevil GWG and voxpelli, if you're looking for some help getting more involved in the WordPress core community, I've got some people on my team at DreamHost who are very involved in the core WP community and might be able to help.
# cleverdevil just let me know if you want introductions!
# 
@redowlsixgun RT @kevinmarks: @shadowfirebird @violetblue #indieweb is out there http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/656537483203612672)
# cleverdevil great
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# snarfed huh, interesting. bridgy sent my rsvp on https://www.facebook.com/events/175203116150206/ to the wiki as an rsvp, but to kylewm's indie event (https://kylewm.com/2015/12/indiewebcamp-sf-2015) only as a mention
# snarfed ...because of the new original post discovery logic added in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/51 , since indiewebcamp.com is in the IWC facebook profile (https://www.facebook.com/indiewebcamp), but kylewm.com isn't
# tantek ICYMI: http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2015/10/deprecating-our-ajax-crawling-scheme.html - another win for js;dr
# Loqi cweiske: snarfed left you a message 2 hours, 39 minutes ago: just fyi, superfeedr's tracker feature is actually free for the first 2k notifs/month (https://superfeedr.com/pricing#trackers). as a data point, bridgy's blog webmentions feature (https://www.brid.gy/about#blogs) only uses 1-2k notifs/month, so you can run a decent sized service in that budget http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360826428
# Loqi cweiske: snarfed left you a message 2 hours, 36 minutes ago: scratch that, i was wrong. it does have a base price of $2/feed/month. still a great service though. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-20/line/1445360996547
# 
cweiske oh dreaded github merge button in owncloud's git repo - http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-10-20%20owncloud%20github%20merge%20button.png
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# kevinmarks tantek: https://www.google.com/search?q=kevin+marks the SERP for the top result is from js-injected webmentions
# kevinmarks I wodner if they look for $searchterm was or $searchterm is ?
# voxpelli tantek: here's some Google JS Indexing research: http://searchengineland.com/tested-googlebot-crawls-javascript-heres-learned-220157
# kevinmarks it is weird that they make the serp from the 5th occurence of my name on the page, and ignore the hcard at the top
# kevinmarks I wonder if I made it an mf1 hcard it would show up
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# kevinmarks interesting bit "Does the CMS support structured content? Is content broken down into reusable chunks? Are inputs stored as specific data types? "
# kevinmarks "Traditional, page-centric tools store information in big blobs of data, where actual content is mixed with formatting styles and layout elements. Karen McGrane has illustrated the painful struggle to adopt such content to new mediums in all its gory details. The antidote to the majority of these problems is to disassemble undifferentiated content blobs into small, reusable chunks of data and keep this data strictly separate
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# 
gRegorLove Re: modularity, that's something I really like about ProcessWire. Since each template is basically a custom collection of fields, I can easily separate out distinct parts, like post content, syndication URLs, in-reply-to URLs, etc. and construct different views. It feels a lot better than trying to bolt on functionality to a CMS.
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# kevinmarks this is also interesting http://alistapart.com/article/object-oriented-ux
# kevinmarks don't be put off by the title, it's more like list oriented
# kevinmarks "mobile first simply means forced prioritization. It means think about layout later. Start with a single column “design” (also known as a list), and force yourself to prioritize content and functionality with sequential ranking."
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